Do you know where open, constructive dialogue is taking place RIGHT NOW? On the YouTube! It’s where folks without prominent blogs are unleashing their inner Joy Behar and baiting each other like Bill O’Reilly. Served up in today’s round of thought exercise is the battle between two young white guys on just how masculine gay men should try to be. Roll footage!
Here’s John arguing for the “you don’t have to act faggy to be gay” side:
And here’s Chris, nee Sprite Boy (yes we used to read your blog three years ago!), going all “let’s get along”:
And then John fires back at Chris!
How about we take this to the next level?
Our newsletter is like a refreshing cocktail (or mocktail) of LGBTQ+ entertainment and pop culture, served up with a side of eye-candy.
Ooh, and Chris serves up some heat back at him!
[Hat tip to GenderFun for being a spectator to all this]
ggreen
They both need to quit going to SuperCuts
David
I was one of Johns earlier subscribers. I really like his videos and think that they have the potential to actually help some people deal with some of the things that come along with coming out. (Some of his videos not so much, but most of them I thought were very nice.)
As for the other guy, I don’t watch his videos so I have no clue haha.
Jeff
I pick JOHN!
Seems like a nice guy, good head on his shoulders, and has that Milo Ventimigilla thing going!
dizzyspins
I agree with John’s point, but its kind of hard to believe he’s not a stereotypical gay when he films his post shirtless and has pictures of hot guys on his wall. Kettle, meet Pot
Sam
John’s a cutie, and seems nice and like he means well, but he might want to look into that “internalized homophobia” thing a bit more. He doesn’t get it, but it could be that he’s got it.
I think when you’re really secure with who you are, you don’t feel the need to bash who other people are, even when you don’t conform to the gay “norm.” Generalizing that you don’t like gay people because they’re “obnoxious,” “talk like women,” and are obsessed with fashion, celebrity gossip and Brittney Spears could mean that you’ve got some issues going on.
Rob W.
This is silly. Bandanna guy overreacts and doesn’t even encourage a dialog. Just gets all pissed off and indignant like a Fox News anchor when someone questions what he says. And it’s ironic he talks about his responder doing his video for attention…
I know guys like the bandanna guy. I like that guy. But I like when he isn’t so self-aware and self-absorbed into his masculinity… dude. The problem with masculinity is that most of the time it’s so forced. And that’s sad and funny.
I have no problem with femininity or effeminate guys. But I have a problem with shallow guys. And bandanna guy, despite all his masculine posturing, comes off as shallow when he talks about attention and all of his subscribers and just his overall petulance, but I don’t know him in real life, so whatever.
Will
You’re only picking John because he is the prettier of the two and exhibits more nudity than Chris. I very nearly did that too…but that’s not just a gay stereotype, that’s psychology.
But Chris is making slightly more sense, even if he does make snide jabs that only lose him favour. John is just being reactionary and comes off as a bit of a jerk. It’s a good thing he pointed out the whole ‘you can dislike a gay person just because of the person that they are, not because they are gay’ thing, because I really don’t like him.
edgyguy1426
It’s good to see that a dialogue is going on without a lot of name calling and flame throwing. Both these guys have valis viewpoints and though I lean toward Chris’ view, I want to hear what both these ‘dudes’ have to say. They started a discussion about something that made me evaluate my own views..and that’s a good thing, right?
Sam
I think its funny how bandanna guy thinks he can “talk like a man”. Please girl, you still sound like a Moe ~ and that’s OK girl, really!
Get over all these labels because you yourself are a walking stereotype. Who cares!
thisismikesother
John’s response is more insults than anything logical. Sure he’s pretty, but he didn’t have much else good to say. And his first video makes a point, but I think it’s important to say that it’s just as perfectly acceptable to hate sports if you’re gay, or to talk with a lisp, or to have a bunch of girlfriends. those are just as acceptable. he would have made a completely legit point if he was like “look, i’m fitting the naked gay stereotype by not wearing a shirt!” or pointing out his posters. but instead, he comes across as one of those gays who hates gays because of the internal homophobia thing. all in all, he just sorta irks me.
oh, and my favorite part:”and so i blocked him.” right, that’s mature.
faghag
Littlebigchris is a fucking douchebag, I feel sorry for his very lovely boyfriend Nick.
Dave
John only dresses like a fag. Anytime I see a guy wearing a thumb ring….GAY! I do not care how SAG they think they are! He doth protest to much.
Nick K
Team Chris! I am definitely not a stereotype; my swish is minimal, I like horror movies and video games and college basketball (but also project runway and electronica and hanging out with girls), and my gay friends tend to be the same. But John’s message is clouded by a clear opinion that, while it’s okay to be whoever you are, it is somehow superior or, more precisely, nobler to act like a dudebro. Dumb and hypocritical. He also seems saddled with a major case of “can dish it out…”
Santino
@Sam: GREAT points, Sam. When someone is truly secure in their own person, they shouldn’t feel the need to attack others who are different than they are. We should all learn to respect the differences in our (and every) community as that’s what makes the world unique and wonderful.
Keep up the good work, all you flaming ‘mos! I love ya.
GayIsTheWay
My view, the gay view:
* There are next to zero masculine openly gay men on TV or film in the US. Almost all the representations of gay men are effeminate.
* I’m tired of effeminate gay men that shoot down masculine gay men because they are jealous and want all gay men to be effeminate and miserable like them. I know you have a porn stache that consists entirely of masculine men and you prefer them also to be heterosexual because you think that all gay men are effeminate and you don’t like it.
* Gay men desire masculine men.
* Just because you like men doesn’t mean you are like a girl. Stop imposing heterosexual conventions on gay people. We are not inverts of heterosexuals. Got it.
* Gay men have higher levels of free testosterone than heterosexual males. Free testosterone is what gives men their gender specific traits like a deep voice, broad shoulders, body hair, musculature etc.
* Gay men on average have bigger dicks than heterosexual males.
http://www.salon.com/health/sex/urge/world/1999/11/04/size/
Vince
I’m gonna quote House on this… “Ignorance is bliss”
i think both have their own notion and opinion on the subject, and like don’t we all…. and both of them are basically arguing bout nothing really. bottom line, both are saying that it’s ok to be who you want to be, whoever you are, just that John thinks it’s ok to be more masculine and Chris thinks it’s ok to be more feminine. period.
i guess i side with John, maybe cause i can relate a little more…
Brian
@GayIsTheWay WOW you are really struggling with this one huh? I just don’t understand why we can’t accept that some gays are swishy some gays are butch. Who cares? Isn’t that what makes the gay community great, I mean there is no culture, race, religion, etc… that can escape us! Let’s just stop fighting with each other, unite and take over the world already! sheesh
allstarecho
How’s this for stereotyical: John is hot and I wanna let him be butch with my butch-hole. ;]
Aaron J.
Neither of them is hot.
Adrian Acosta
Thanks Queery for picking up this story.
We’re glad we could contribute to the dialogue.
sal
just what we need more gays fighting with one another over individual difference…..wow,fem gays ,butch gays boxes boxes boxes…wow we are soooo diff from the hetero’s.be who u be,love u always!!!!!!
Michael
I find it so cute when 20-somethings feel they have a sure enough grip on life that they can offer such “deep” life lessons to the world around them.
I’m not suggesting that I knew better when I was that age. I had a friend who asked me, back then, if I had a choice, who would I choose between a “hot looking man with an feminine voice” vs. “an average ‘mo, with a masculine voice.” I chose the latter, he chose the former. Yet in real life, he ended up with the latter, and I found an amazing love through the former.
Gosh, we just love to sit back, judge a bit, and then apply lables to everything. I was a very accomplished athelete, who (I am told) is very masculine in behavior and appearance. My husband never participated in sports, and he is described as being a bit more feminine in behavior. Yet, I love design, fashion, decorating, Merchant Ivory films, gardening, reading, music and art. My husband loves watching football, scales a wall like nobody’s business, could care less about music, has no fashion sense, and art for him is a Thomas Kincade painting. What drew us together and has kept us deeply in love these many years is a shared value system.
So, what I would say is that if you are gay? You can be just about anything you want, and as long as you are a kind and honorable human being, I am going to love you just the way you are. You can talk effemintely, and I’m gonna love you (maybe all the more for all the b.s. you put up with on a daily basis). If you choose to surround yourself with 15 women, God Bless ya for having friends. You can be miserable at sports, and I’ll feel glad to sit next to you in a theatre showing a chick flick.
Your mannerisms and interests are not so important in this life, as what your value and belief systems are. Are you a human being who is kind, open hearted, caring, and honorable? Then walk out there in the world with pride and your chin up–and dismiss the assholes who would dismiss for being exactly as you are!
sparkle obama
@Brian:
i know, huh!
WOW is right.
how you gonna marry somebody if you don’t love yourself??
can i get a amen up in here?
sparkle obama
the bleach blonde guy is nicer & smarter.
the ben affleck lesbian guy is a stuck up dummy!
matt
and yes, you can be gay and wear a shirt in your youtube video
nature boy
Aww, these guys are so cute! And so young! They BOTH get A for Effort.
Don’t we all, straight and gay, have SOME degree of internalized homophobia? Almost impossible to lose it completely, the point is to learn to recognize it when it pops up and get beyond it. I remember coming out… it was hard! John’s message, while not perfect, is still helpful to those young kids trying to find that courage.
Yes you can be gay and still act manly. And then eventually you’ll discover it’s OK to do drag. It’s a lot of fun but a lot of work! Don’t get too messy! Ok, DO get a little messy, but then, clean up your act. And then you’ll realize that manliness and leather and tatts and piercings and even “regular guys” are just another kind of drag. And then you’ll relax and just be yourself and enjoy the show.
Finally, it’s spelled B-R-I-T-N-E-Y. She is what she is, and if you don’t love her, it’s only because you haven’t been paying attention to the whole picture, warts and all. I didn’t like her either but then I watched some behind-the-scenes stuff and read some interviews and guess what now I am a fan and I am OK with that!
sal
..Chris seemed mature while the other was ranting
sal
@Michael: wow that was BEAUTIFULLLLL 🙂
RJ
John has posted a new video with his mom and he takes the high road, even apologizes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqjk-eK2H_g
faghag
@sal: chris is an idiot! believe me… his boyfriend on the other hand, is lovely.
miss j
@faghag: wow, bitter much? do you actually know him in real life?
TANK
It’s just at teeny little piece of him? Well, different strokes…no, seriously, how small is it?
Dave
Big props to John for apologizing.
faghag
@miss j: HE IS A FUCKING HYPOCRITE! I love how he berates John for not taking criticism when he himself tends to block you if you disagree with him.I was one of his subscribers for over a year and a half if not longer, it took me saying that I didn’t agree with him on one small thing to be blocked permanantly from his channeL.I HAVE NEVER SO MUCH AS SAID ONE BAD WORD ABOUT HIM! what do you have to say about this Chris, I’m sure you’re reading this.
Tyler
@Sam: I can’t tell you how many people I hate because they’re obsessed with fashion, celebs and Britney. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Hating someone because these things don’t fit into your idea of appropriate gender expression, that’s something different.
TANK
@faghag:
That’ll do, pig. That’ll do.
faghag
@TANK: who are you calling a pig? I don’t remember addressing you, this has nothing tol do with you.
TANK
I said that will do!
faghag
@TANK: No, you said that’ll do pig. What givesz you the right to call me a pig?
TANK
No, I said, “That’ll do, pig,” not, that’ll do pig. It’s a difference in delivery.
vernonvanderbilt
I love that movie. I need to see it again.
MJ
So, I didn’t watch these videos because these guys are certainly dumb (read: ugly), but, obviously, I will comment anyway.
Here’s the deal: Some less-effeminate gay men love to tell their straight friends that they, the less-effeminate gay men, are nothing like their more-effeminate gay male counterparts. These less-effeminate gay men often say things like “being gay is just one small part of who I am” and try to marginalize more-effeminate gay men by disparaging the way the more-effeminate gay men talk, walk, and dress.
This is because these particular less-effeminate are homophobic. And we should feel bad for them because they hate themselves. And we should be angry with them, because they hate us too.
In some ways, but of course not in every way, this phenomenon is comparable to the ways in which our culture perceives and represents lighter dark-skinned people and darker dark-skinned people. Like in “Once On This Island.” Or, like, in our lives, right now. See: all those articles about how Michelle Obama is dark-skinned, and Barack Obama is not as dark-skinned, and why this is significant.
So, here’s what I, a more-effeminate gay man, has to say to all of you less-effeminate gay men who wanna turn me into the Other: You can (maybe) cover and I cannot, and I hope that gets you through the night.
Or, if you still can’t sleep, we could just have sex, yes? That helps, sometimes. Call me.
stevenelliot
Pah-leeze. a ‘mo with a tank top and a head band with boy toy fotos on his wall should not talk about anyone elses femininity. Go channel “Tootsie” or a 1980’s Jane Fonda to someone who cares.
I am sick of this entire group of gay guys who want to emulate straight guys. They aspire to disown any gay who is feminine. Why?
jimmy
I think John is operating from an incorrect assumption that young gay men are faced with some fem/butch fork in the road on their path to adulthood. These personality traits often surface just after toddler-hood, so this question is largely settled by the time adolescence rolls around. If his message is be true to yourself, then great, that’s a good message. But, I’m hearing a bit of a superiority complex at work.
His apology was sincere and his mom is a doll.
dgz
“yessssssss, you can be gay.” wow, you’re butch. psych.
Chris is obviously so much smarter; i hope he doesn’t expect an intelligent debate from this “dude.” John’s counterpoint is literally “you’re stupid” and “you’re retarded.” touché, douche. (well, okay, maybe those highlights weren’t the best choice… but John’s ear gages are equally heinous. wait, am i being stereotypical again? dern my limp wrists!)
but do the most masculine guys really feel discriminated against? do they require propping up? or does society tell them they’re better every day?
Kevin B
Here’s why John is wrong.
What does it mean to “talk like a man”?
Think about that.
AJ
LOL, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuDJmVkPYpw