SOUNDBITES — “I think gay clergy in the Church of England are thought of as a problem to be solved or at least lived with, rather than a gift from God. … I can’t imagine anything that would be more abhorrent to Jesus than a two-tier church. Either we are children of God and brothers and sisters in Christ, or we aren’t. There are not preferred children and second-class children. There are just children of God. … The [Episcopalian] church did not get involved in the civil rights movement in the United States for quite a long time, because of fear of offending those who disagreed with them. But at some point we decided that it was more important to do the just and right thing than it was to not offend those who disagreed. And so we joined in the civil rights movement for people of colour, and then tried to deal as pastorally as we could with those who disagreed. And I think that’s the tension we face in the communion, of which Archbishop Williams would represent the long view, the gradual view, and the American church would represent, as best we can discern it, trying to do the right and just thing.” —Gay Episcopalian bishop V. Gene Robinson, making a pointed observation as he joins the Catholic Church of England at the Greenbelt festival this weekend. Oh they’re just going to love him. [Guardian]
Bishop Gene Robinson
‘I think gay clergy in the Church of England are thought of as a problem to be solved or at least lived with, rather than a gift from God. … I can’t imagine anything that would be more abhorrent to Jesus than a two-tier church’
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Brian
“Either we are children of God and brothers and sisters in Christ, or we aren’t. There are not preferred children and second-class children. There are just children of God.”
Great Vicki-Gene. If we are ALL equal in the eyes of God, how about signing the Declaration on behalf of Episcopalians? How about un-wronging homosexuality by simply declaring:
Homosexuals are Not Wrong, Sinful or Deviant.
Would you do that for us, please. We have suffered for 2,000 years because of the religious LIE about homosexuals. You’re an advocate for LGBT equality, right? That would make it easy for you to sign the Declaration. We NEED your help.
dsdrane
The full Guardian article is definitely worth reading. I take shocked pride in the fact that the American Church has taken the lead in this latest struggle (I would have put money on Canada). The important thing now is to keep the pressure on as well as make sure that Bishop Robinson isn’t the only one holding the ABC’s feet to the fire.
Brian
@dsdrane: What struggle? Allowing gays and lesbians to be in the Clergy is a struggle? They have been doing that for 2,000 years.
The struggle is the hatred and discrimantion directed at LGBT people because of religious dogma. Christian and yes, Episcopalian dogma. Homosexuality is Not Wrong – Religion is. Courage and Leadership would mean ending the Biblical lies about homosexuals. Vicki-Gene never talks about that.
Unless Vicki-Gene Robinson signs the Declaration to un-wrong Homosexuals, he has done NOTHING but create the opportunity for more gays to wear robes.
rick
england has always had a two tiered church, high and low. you can tell the difference by the tatoos on the backs of their necks.
thank you monty python. and the strawberry tart has quite a lot of rat in it.
Chance
Robinson said, re: racism – at some point we decided that it was more important to do the just and right thing than it was to not offend those who disagreed.
Which only emphasizes how little the Episcopals have done because, quite simply, they are cowardly and afraid of the consequences of taking a decisive moral stand. They have “welcomed” LGBT into their churches and into their clergy, but have done nothing to officially address the biblical doctrine that has made us wrong for so long.
I hope that one day they will get around to being brave about this. I just can’t help but think that, by the time they finally do, they will be irrelevant. They will be stating the obvious long after some true (and most likely secular) moral leadership has righted the wrongs.
Andrew W.
Bishop Vicki Gene Robinson is a FRAUD. He repeatedly puts Jesus before Equality for gays and lesbians. He refuses to say “Homosexuals are not wrong, sinful or deviant.”
How much does a Bishop get paid?
His game is about his paycheck and not about rights for gays and lesbians. It’s a con-job.
dsdrane
Honestly, where do you guys get the word “wrong”? You seem so hung up on it. It shows up on post after post. Would it actually make any difference if some denomination actually said: sure, we’ll sign your Declaration? Be honest; it wouldn’t. You’d find another hurdle to leap.
To put it another way: it’s not about you.
But, then, you’re not even “religious”, so what I would like to know is: why do you bother?
Additionally, what exactly is the deal with the “Vicki Gene” thing? Seriously. Are you saying that, by feminizing him, you’re demeaning him? If so, I think there are some women who may want to have a word or two with you. And some men. If you have serious issues with Bishop Robinson, you should start by addressing him as such…in the same way you would like to be addressed. If you cannot extend that level of courtesy (if not respect), then do not expect to be a part of the conversation.
Here’s the ultimate question: do you simply want to fire spitballs, or do you actually want to be a part of the conversation? If the former, grow up; if the latter, grow up.
Brian
@dsdrane: “Would it actually make any difference if some denomination actually said: sure, we’ll sign your Declaration? Be honest; it wouldn’t. You’d find another hurdle to leap.
No, it would make all the difference in the world. No brand of Christianity has ever said “it’s not WRONG to be homosexual.” It’s that simple.
I’m not “religious” but I know what Religion has done. It has made us wrong. They also know it is a LIE. So, they have to opportunity to correct something. I don’t think they will. They never have. Not biblical racism, not biblical slavery, not biblical oppression of women – nothing.
But, we can keep HOPE alive. Perhaps one Christian will finally have the courage to say “homosexuality is not wrong, sinful or deviant. But, in 2,000 years NONE have. Not a single one.
Religion made us wrong. It is IMPORTANT to REJECT that LIE.
Ammon
Brian, why do you give the churches so much authority? Why do you need them to make this doctrinal statement “Homosexuals are Not Wrong, Sinful or Deviant.” that you keep repeating? You claim to not even be religious, but you seem to require the churches to be dogmatic. Not all churches are dogmatic, and would not pass such a decree on anything requiring their members to agree like mindless automatons. Many churches respect the spiritual freedom of individuals to come to their own conclusions. There are groups within churches and some churches themselves who have gone to great lengths to affirm the statement you wish for, working against strong cultural currents. Churches are human communities, thereby messy and chaotic. I somehow think that even if all the churches in the world got together and did miraculously sign on to your dogmatic statement, it would not be enough to satisfy you or to heal your wounds. I hate that people have been hurt by individuals and institutions who claim to represent Christ, but who clearly did not get the message quite right. I reject any authority that asks me to hate…that being said, nothing will change unless I stay engaged with them and challenge them. And my challenge will not be effective unless it is done in a way that the human dignity of all is respected.
Brian
@Ammon: “Why do you need them to make this doctrinal statement “Homosexuals are Not Wrong, Sinful or Deviant.” that you keep repeating?
ALL the pain and suffering of homosexuals has come from the Religious LIE that we are wrong and defective. That is how we have been branded. Those beliefs exist in the majority of peoples minds and that is why we continue to be hated and discriminated against.
So, yeah – what Religion did to homosexuals IS THE PROBLEM.
You claim “There are groups within churches and some churches themselves who have gone to great lengths to affirm the statement you wish for, working against strong cultural currents.”
No religious denomination or even an individual Church has affirmed that “LGBT people are NOT WRONG.” Not a single one.
To continue to accept that religious lie sanctions the hate, bigotry and discrimination that it creates. I reject that lie and many others are beginning to do the same. We as a community must not be defined by religion, but rather by ourselves. Only then will we have a chance for equality.
It doesn’t matter if religion embraces and welcomes LGBT people as LONG AS THEY KEEP MAKING THEM WRONG. An act of courage from one of these so-called “gay friendly” institutions would be to sign the Declaration:
Homosexuals are Not Wrong, Sinful or Deviant.
Until then, it’s all marketing for LGBT money. This simple declaration would validate the idea that they are, indeed gay-friendly. So far, none have. That doesn’t appear very “friendly” to me.
Brian
@Ammon: At last count 75% of adult Americans believed the religious lie that homosexuals are wrong. That’s why LGBT people have NEVER won a popular vote and we must rely on “court ordered” rights – if that ever happens.
We MUST change those “beliefs.” We can never be “equal” if 75% of our fellow citizens “believe” we are wrong, sinful or deviant.
schlukitz
@Ammon:
that being said, nothing will change unless I stay engaged with them and challenge them. And my challenge will not be effective unless it is done in a way that the human dignity of all is respected.
Ah. But there’s the rub.
You choose to remain engaged with a monolithic organization who have never afforded LGBT people a shred of human dignity throughout it’s long, two-thousand year reign.
If you are happy to cowardly wait another two-thousand years to elapse before they can find themselves even capable of showing a little human dignity, fine.
The rest of us will continue to confront the hatred and bigotry head-on without excuses or apologies.
Religion has graphically shown us that imperialism is not just limited to world governments.
dsdrane
@dsdrane: “Would it actually make any difference if some denomination actually said: sure, we’ll sign your Declaration? Be honest; it wouldn’t. You’d find another hurdle to leap.
No, it would make all the difference in the world. No brand of Christianity has ever said “it’s not WRONG to be homosexual.” It’s that simple.
Brian, you’re a liar.
Kenster999
@rick: “england has always had a two tiered church, high and low. you can tell the difference by the tatoos on the backs of their necks.”
Alright, I hate to be dense, and I love love love Monty Python, and I even lived in England for about a year. But I must confess that I don’t quite get this joke. Can someone please enlighten me?
Thanks! (sheepishly)
Brian
@dsdrane: I’m a liar? Wow. That’s how you respond to facts? Good job.
schlukitz
@Brian:
Facts mean nothing to people who refuse to open their eyes enough to actually see what is going on around them.
Some people will always live in denial, no matter what the facts are.
It’s where they need to be.
Eugene
@dsdrane: “Additionally, what exactly is the deal with the “Vicki Gene” thing? Seriously. Are you saying that, by feminizing him, you’re demeaning him?”
His real name is Vicky Gene Robinson. Yes, it’s quite bizarre, but it’s true.
rudy
I know a very out lesbian who attends the same Southern Baptist Church of her childhood. Half the congregation will have nothing to do with her, and yet she continues going there.
Just blocks away is an MCC church where every Sunday gay couples stand up and affirm their love and commitment to each other, and everyone prays for courage to fight on for our rights and dignity.
My lesbian neighbor says worshipping there would be too easy and that by going to her family’s church, she forces them to deal with her as a human being.
Go figure.
Brian
@rudy: By going to this Baptist Church she actually sanctions their beliefs and their hatred. It would be more helpful if she refused to contribute. If enough people withhold donations these Churches will notice.
For here to attend is in now way a “stand” for LGBT people. Refusing to support their hate would be a statement.
dsdrane
@Eugene:
Wow…I stand corrected.
A point goes to Brian for using Robinson’s true name, but then the point gets deducted for using it in a mocking, 2nd-grader kind of way.
stevenelliot
I sure wish Mr Bishop Robinson would quit pontificating and actually contribute to the cause. Other than standing around highbrow Episcopalian conferences with his partner, glowing in the limelight of “I am the token gay”, what does he really do???? He’s just kind of “fluf” wrapped in a clerical collar.
dsdrane
@stevenelliot:
How exactly do YOU, “Stevenelliot”, contribute to the cause, I wonder.
How much hate mail do YOU receive on a daily basis?
On what chopping block have you laid YOUR neck lately?
When you punch your daily timecard, does your job description include the spiritual well-being of every member of your denomination within a U.S. State…even the ones who wish you didn’t exist?
Honestly, who’s the real “fluf” around here?
stevenelliot
@dsdrane: Um. Im not proporting to be the only gay bishop in the US episcopal clergy, now am I.
Yeah Bishop Robinson must have a bunch of hate mail his secretary reads all day long. I agree. That must be why he/she couldnt get to the one letter I wrote to him about my and my partners predicament in the very same Episcopal church that He/ we both belong to.
My partner has met the man face to face, down at the recent “conference” in Los Angeles. And since he didnt have the common decency to reply to my letter, I did not attend said conference, because I would have looked him in the face and called him on it. That of course would have pissed off my husband.
Dont diss at me about something you know nothing of..
Brian
@dsdrane: Vicky Gene is just doing his job. He has done nothing to force the Episcopalians to make a Declaration about homosexuals. They still teach that homosexuality is wrong, sinful and deviant.
If the gay Bishop had balls, he would risk his paycheck trying to provide some REAL change at his religious institution. He hasn’t.
It really doesn’t matter if we have gay clergy, if the flock believes we are defective.