SOUNDBITES — “I have been receiving a number of friends from outside Uganda telling me that we should go slow on the rights of people who promote anal sex. And I’m telling them, ‘Well, if you in your countries you’ve chosen to promote anal sex that is your business but leave us alone.'” — Uganda’s Ethics Minister James Nsaba Buturo, rebuffing threats from aid-donating nations and moving ahead with plans to criminalize same-sex sex.
For what it’s worth, Buturo also “accused the United Nations of a secret plot to spread homosexuality.”
Prince
“Uganda´s Ethics Minister”?…is that a joke?, Uganda together with Zimbabwe and Nigeria, is one of the most corrupt countries in the world. Any financial aid to Uganda should be stopped immediately…screw them.
jason
I reckon most Ugandan men have anal sex – with their wives.
scott ny'er
oh no he didn’t.
Cam
It’s always the ones that say things like that who have a secret boyfriend on the side.
Dennis
Wish I had more compassion, but I really don’t…insulting the values of tolerance and equal treatment, while expecting aid to continue for their country…um, not so much.
Fine, keep your bigot views, and starve for all I care…truly, there are many, many other deserving people on the planet…the earth is clearly struggling to support us all, and somebody’s gotta lose, maybe it’s time to ‘cull the herd’ a bit. Yes, we’ll keep our values, and our food…hope you can eat the paper your ‘anti-gay proclimation’ is printed on.
Dennis
@Dennis:
And what sucks is that, this FUCK won’t suffer at all if aid is cut off…if there’s a meal to be had in the entire country, he gets it. Just DIE then, die and leave the food for a more deserving soul.
shelby84
Promoting anal sex? Does Ellis Island have some billboards I don’t know about?
Michael
Don’t label Ugandans as backward or primitive when the laws they’re enforcing are leftovers of British colonization. The British criminalized homosexuality in Uganda and westerners now berate the country for laws they themselves made. Homophobia in Africa is largely the product of a brutal, oppressive western regime – it’s important that we recognize it as such.
I’m not excusing any homophobia, regardless of origin. I’m merely pointing out the hypocrisy of middle-class, Internet-accessing, educated, largely white bloggers and blog readers feeling they have the prerogative to pass judgment on an aspect of a culture that their own (at least cultural) ancestors created.
And to “Prince” and “Dennis” – you are reprehensible, small-minded morons. You’re suggesting, by indicating you don’t support foreign aid to Uganda, that we should allow countless Ugandans to starve, die of preventable disease, and live in the streets because of our discomfort with a homophobic statement in a newspaper by a low-level politician? You’ve got to be fucking kidding. Statements like yours are unimaginably reckless, insensitive, and self-indulgent. Your feelings of entitlement are completely unjustified and I’m ashamed to call people like you fellow citizens. Grow up and/or fuck off.
TANK
That crutch no longer exists. No, afraid you can’t blame white devil for the actions of present day ugandans and especially this ethics minister. He’s his own man. And who’s to say that in africa, homosexuality (or whatever the concept was for them) was permissable?
Michael
Tank, most everything that happens in contemporary sub-Saharan African politics can be easily and indisputably linked to colonial presences and their legacies. Ideologies are not self-contained. And, for the record, there was a well-known gay kabaka of the Buganda kingdom in the 19th century.
Homophobia in Uganda is primarily based on born-again, evangelical Christian belief systems introduced by the “white devils” you seem so eager to absolve. Attempting to view Africa “post-racially” is a waste of time.
Also, please don’t switch from talking about Uganda to talking about Africa as a whole. Would you think it fair for an African to extrapolate characteristics about North American culture based solely on knowledge of, say, Honduras? No, probably not.
TANK
Tank, most everything that happens in contemporary sub-Saharan African politics can be easily and indisputably linked to colonial presences and their legacies.
Most everything that happens in contemporary african american society can be linked to slavery and the legacy of bigotry in the united states.
Ideologies are not self-contained. And, for the record, there was a well-known gay kabaka of the Buganda kingdom in the 19th century.
LOL! Africa is not one culture. There are countless cases of the stigmatization of same sex relationships prior to western imperialism.
Homophobia in Uganda is primarily based on born-again, evangelical Christian belief systems introduced by the “white devils” you seem so eager to absolve. Attempting to view Africa “post-racially” is a waste of time.
That doesn’t excuse their behavior. THey’re just as much to blame as contemporary homophobic “white devils” in the united states and europe.
Also, please don’t switch from talking about Uganda to talking about Africa as a whole.
Why not? It’s illegal to be gay and punishable by death and incarceration in over 3/4 of africa.
TANK
Oh, and excusing bad behavior because of the legacy of slavery and bigotry, in contemporary black people is just as foolish…and just as wrong.
Michael
Most everything that happens in contemporary african american society can be linked to slavery and the legacy of bigotry in the united states” – This I don’t dispute, although I’m not sure of its relevance in this particular discussion.
“LOL! Africa is not one culture. There are countless cases of the stigmatization of same sex relationships prior to western imperialism” – Buganda is the largest kingdom/ethnic group within the country of Uganda. We’re talking about Uganda specifically – notice my caveat at the end of my last post. And I’d love to see the “countless” examples of pre-colonial homophobia of which you speak.
“That doesn’t excuse their behavior. THey’re just as much to blame as contemporary homophobic “white devils” in the united states and europe.” – I am not making excuses for homophobia, as I said in my first post. I’m noting that there is irony in the suddenly lofty ethics of western whites in that politicized homophobia in Africa is largely of white fabrication.
“Why not? It’s illegal to be gay and punishable by death and incarceration in over 3/4 of africa” – This is an unfortunate truth. But bear in mind the historical truth that social progress is usually a consequence of economic progress. In this sense, the exclusion of African nations – by the west – from the so-called “global economy” plays directly into the absence of stronger social justice movements. If you can’t feed your kids, you’re not going to be inclined to go out and campaign for the civil liberties/rights of others.
I’m not excusing African homophobia – I want to reiterate this. I just want Westerners to analyze more deeply our own culpability in promoting homophobia in the developing world.
Michael
@TANK: This is a deeply uninformed perspective.
Michael
The last comment was in reference to “Oh, and excusing bad behavior because of the legacy of slavery and bigotry, in contemporary black people is just as foolish…and just as wrong.” Not sure what happened with the reply thing above, sorry.
TANK
I am not making excuses for homophobia, as I said in my first post. I’m noting that there is irony in the suddenly lofty ethics of western whites in that politicized homophobia in Africa is largely of white fabrication.
What does this mean? What is the purpose of this other than to diminish culpability or criticize condemnation of virulent state sponsored homophobia? “suddenly lofty ethics”–is this to suggest that they’re wrong, or that they can’t be right? Is homophobia ethically justified to you if it comes from africa? What’s your point here?
TANK
@Michael:
No, you are simply an apologist for homophobia. In certain cases, imperialism took advantage of preexisting homophobia and exploited it, making to worse. THis is only an explanation of why it is there no different than an explanation of why it exists in the united states for europe (religion and sexism working off of each other). This IS by no means an excuse. And that is exactly what you’re trying to do here by making apologies and minimizing the ethical RESPONSIBILITY of ugandans in perpetuating homophobia. How dare you. You are a part of the problem. To call that a deeply uninformed perspective is to embrace the most toxic and unethical elements of the sentiment expressed by the quote, and defend them. In that regard, they could have just as easily issued from your simple mouth.
TANK
Unfortunately, talking to people of the radical left is no different, really, than talking to people of the radical right. They’ve all got their gods that they worship, and they’re all equally irrational. THe tool of the right: “you evil god hatin’ satan’s spawn!” and that of the left: “You racist bigot!” Both end conversation, and the hope of reason…and that is exactly their intent. Thinking is discouraged on both sides.
Michael
@TANK: You’re wildly twisting my words. And yes, I suppose I am in a way diminishing their culpability.
Let’s try an analogy. If I have a child and I teach her that it’s okay to steal, then subsequently complain to friends and family about her stealing, doesn’t this make me a hypocrite? Doesn’t this make my child less culpable?
Europeans re-engineered African cultural politics against the will of, and at great cost to, their African subjects. Then westerners have the audacity to blame Africans for the aftermath of this. Reference western responses to the Rwandan genocide, the wars in the DRC, the violence in Burundi, the genocide in Chad/Sudan/Central African Republic, racial violence in post-Apartheid South Africa.. the list goes on and on.
TANK
@Michael:
Then that diminished culpability should apply to every single homophobe in the united states, too. As they are just victims of ideology. YOu sad little man. You are woefully out of your depth when you even begin to address the responsibility we have for our beliefs and behaviors.
TANK
Europeans re-engineered African cultural politics against the will of, and at great cost to, their African subjects. Then westerners have the audacity to blame Africans for the aftermath of this. Reference western responses to the Rwandan genocide, the wars in the DRC, the violence in Burundi, the genocide in Chad/Sudan/Central African Republic, racial violence in post-Apartheid South Africa.. the list goes on and on.
This is a nonsequitur and in no way diminishes or EXCUSES (this is your normative OPINION–not a fact) the responsibility they have for perpetuating homophobia and increasing suffering amongst their own people. IT’s not white europeans who are feeling the pain because of these policies that they actively continue to perpetuate.
Sorry, but all you can do is explain how these beliefs form. How sexism takes root; how homophobia takes root. But because of that, you cannot make the INVALID (it doesn’t follow from that alone logically) inference that people aren’t responsible for their beliefs if those beliefs originated somewhere else, and they were exposed to them. They do choose to continue to behave this way, and prefer to.
Michael
Tank, I’ve criticized your ideas, not you personally. Comments like “YOu [sic] sad little man. You are woefully out of your depth when you even begin to address the responsibility we have for our beliefs and behaviors” do not further the discussion.
And how, exactly, do you propose that I’m “out of my depth?” Homophobia in the west evolved to serve completely different cultural needs – needs that I am entirely unsympathetic to. Westerners are homophobic in an effort to prop up a failing, ungainly patriarchal power strucutre. This, to me, places culpability for Western homophobia entirely on Westerners.
Michael
“But because of that, you cannot make the INVALID (it doesn’t follow from that alone logically) inference that people aren’t responsible for their beliefs if those beliefs originated somewhere else, and they were exposed to them.”
If this is how I’ve come across, then I’ve miscommunicated my point and I apologize. I don’t think Ugandans bear no responsibility for their own homophobia. They certainly do. But their responsibility is different, and our ability as westerners to criticize it is different.
TANK
@Michael:
Well, you are a sad little man. YOu’ve criticized (vacuously) the responsibility that not just ugandans have for their homophobia, but all people… as people aren’t born homophobic, are they, champ? And why stop at homophobia? I think this really does just eliminate ethical responsibility altogether, don’t you? So no one’s responsible for anything–including the white people who you’re blaming for these homophobic policies in africa. So you’ve already contradicted yourself, champ…
I think, however, that ethical responsibility DOES exist. I think that if someone is doing something that they want to do and that they’ve chosen to do–they’re as responsible for their behavior as is humanly possible. That certianly does make ugandans and this ethics minister responsible for these policies…
Michael
I should also qualify the statement “Westerners are homophobic in an effort to prop up a failing, ungainly patriarchal power strucutre” by saying that this seems, to me, to be the dominant root of western homophobic ideology. I didn’t mean to speak in absolutes on this.
Michael
We can’t address individually-held prejudices without analyzing and mitigating their cultural roots. You’re right that their is a fine line between a healthy dose of cultural relativism and being an apologist for bigotry. But it’s a line we must try to navigate if we ever want to change anything.
TANK
@Michael:
Clearly, though, most aren’t even aware of that. And even those that are–they weren’t born aware of that, but are victims of ideology…so those westerners aren’t responsible for their behaviors, after all…not by your standard.
SO now we get vague…they’re not fully responsible…but responsible in some way. What do you mean by that? What do you mean by not “fully” responsible? WHat does “fully” responsible mean for you? Is anyone fully responsible?
TANK
@Michael:
I don’t know about that. I think cultural relativism is a pernicious metatethical idea that causes more harm than good because first of all..the only way for conflict resolution is violence and force.
Michael
I think our disagreement is now becoming one rooted in a much larger epistemological difference. I don’t think anyone or any action/belief can be separated from the politics of the culture in which they exist, no. In my view, individuals and their cultures are co-conspirators of sorts for both better and worse.
Michael
“the only way for conflict resolution is violence and force.”
I see now why your login name is Tank. 🙂
TANK
Yeah, you’re some kind of cultural anthropo relativist. Dr. Williams used to call this vulgar relativism because it’s self contradictory.
I don’t think anyone or any action/belief can be separated from the politics of the culture in which they exist, no. In my view, individuals and their cultures are co-conspirators of sorts for both better and worse.
Including this one? IF it’s true, it’s false (if you say yes, then you must deny it), if it’s false it’s true (if you say no, then you must say yes!). As you can it’s entirely self defeating.
You don’t think any assessment can be distinguished from its cultural/historical context and evaluated on its ethical merits. I think that’s fatuous. I don’t think slavery was right no matter what the justification was or the view of black as a different species of humanity was ever TRUE. I don’t think that h2o is water is relative to a social convention, and thereby TRUE because of that social convention. I think any belief or action independent of the time period or cultural it originates that encourages and increases human suffering is wrong…because that’s what we mean by wrong.
TANK
@Michael:
No…this is the entailed conclusion of relativism (sophisticated relativism–not your brand that self defeats). Sophisticated relativists deny the possibility of moral disagreements…genuine moral disagreements.
Michael
“Including this one? IF it’s true, it’s false (if you say yes, then you must deny it), if it’s false it’s true (if you say no, then you must say yes!). As you can it’s entirely self defeating.” – I get where you’re trying to go, but it’s not applicable to what I’m saying.
As far as slavery, I agree that slavery is unquestionably wrong – I also think it’s a bit of a straw man in this argument, to use the Philosophy 102 vernacular you seem fond of – just as I agree with you that homophobia is unquestionably wrong. But the legal allowance of slavery was predicated on a wide variety of pseudoscientific beliefs, outright racism, and other components of then-contemporary, white-dominated culture. All law and governments, in one way or another, reflect culture – so institutionalized prejudice or unethical practices are often direct consequences of culture. And, at the heart of this discussion – considering what led to it – is the prejudice societies experience as a consequence of the institutional.
It’s trendy right now in academia to completely discredit any attempt to employ cultural relativism for the sake of analysis. I’m not a cultural relativist, as intent as you seem to “prove” that I am. I can appreciate a wide variety of academic discourses and their usefulness in explicating social context – feminism, Marxism, relativism, structuralism, etc. None of these are without flaws, but they can allow access pieces of the debate in useful ways.
TANK
“Including this one? IF it’s true, it’s false (if you say yes, then you must deny it), if it’s false it’s true (if you say no, then you must say yes!). As you can it’s entirely self defeating.” – I get where you’re trying to go, but it’s not applicable to what I’m saying.
LOL! WHy not? Is logic not applicable to what you’re saying, either?
As far as slavery, I agree that slavery is unquestionably wrong
I’m glad you see it my way, and are not, then, a person who believes what you said you believed…which self defeats…
– I also think it’s a bit of a straw man in this argument, to use the Philosophy 102 vernacular
Hey, don’t knock intro to philosophy. Lotsa smart people started off in an intro to philosophy class (I never took one…accidentally cut my teeth in an upper level ancient philosophy course when I was freshman at eighteen). You could do with more intro to philosophy–as could many, many university professors in the humanities/english departments/ cultural anthropology departments/poly sci, etc. Critical thinking and logic is largely discouraged.
you seem fond of – just as I agree with you that homophobia is unquestionably wrong. But the legal allowance of slavery was predicated on a wide variety of pseudoscientific beliefs, outright racism, and other components of then-contemporary,
white-dominated culture.
And that simply doesn’t excuse it or mitigate blame. These are false beliefs nurtured and acted upon freely…
All law and governments, in one way or another, reflect culture – so institutionalized prejudice or unethical practices are often direct consequences of culture.
Have, perhaps. That doesn’t make it okay or mitigate responsibility for the state that has those laws. But who cares? You can come up with mountains of terrible laws in states all over the world and in states that no longer exist…so what? The law is by no means determinative of what’s right, just what’s legal. What’s your point with this?
And, at the heart of this discussion – considering what led to it – is the prejudice societies experience as a consequence of the institutional.
? So the institution is distinct from the society that it is operative in? It is perpetuated by individuals but is somehow over and above them? So now we’re not blaming westerners, but the institution itself…well, the institution itself has no agency; isn’t an agent.
TANK
It’s trendy right now in academia to completely discredit any attempt to employ cultural relativism for the sake of analysis.
Well, it’s a terrible idea… But that hasn’t been my experience. My experience is that departments in the humanities that aren’t philosophy departments (good ones, anyway) are downright hostile to anything but cultural relativism…that is the religion of choice amongst cultural anthropologists, and sloppy jargon filled literary critics…and english departments with an emphasis on theory…and womens and gender studies, etc. etc., etc.
I’m not a cultural relativist, as intent as you seem to “prove” that I am.
Oh, okay…LOL! It’s just that you saying that actions and beliefs can’t be separated from one’s culture seems like cultural relativism to…anyone who knows what the term means.
Michael
I just posted a long ass response and my internet died, so I apologize for the delay. I would ask that you Wikipedia moral relativism and cultural relativism for a compare/contrast. They often overlap, but they’re not the same. What you have a problem with is moral relativism, not approaching history and society in a culturally-specific way. I am hesitant to claim the label of a cultural relativist because of the perceived overlap between the two, as I am in no way averse to making ethical judgments.
I was an English major – theory-heavy department – with concentrations in African Studies, Gender Studies, and Philosophy. Nearly every academic I came into contact with during my undergraduate years was averse to cultural relativity for the same reason you are – they couldn’t see it as an isolated methodology separate from moral relativity.
Realize that I’m not trying to win this argument or antagonize you. Your language is distractingly abrasive and it lessens you in your discourse. My thesis here is simply that I despise western-centric, often racist/nationalistic, evaluations of African problems and the “pull yourself up by your own bootstraps” mentality that plagues the west. I’m not asking that we don’t judge the ethics/morals of African behavior or policy or belief – I’m simply asking that we have a healthy understanding of our own roles in those things when doing so. Is this so disagreeable?
TANK
I just posted a long ass response and my internet died, so I apologize for the delay. I would ask that you Wikipedia moral relativism and cultural relativism for a compare/contrast.
LOL! I don’t think there’s a reasonable difference in what you’re suggesting. You’re making normative judgments based on cultural relativism.
They often overlap,
Like now.
but they’re not the same.
Meh, pretty much.
What you have a problem with is moral relativism, not approaching history and society in a culturally-specific way.
No, I have a problem with cultural relativism when it becomes moral relativism–like now.
I am hesitant to claim the label of a cultural relativist because of the perceived overlap between the two, as I am in no way averse to making ethical judgments.
……….
TANK
I was an English major – theory-heavy department – with concentrations in African Studies, Gender Studies, and Philosophy.
Go figure! English lit phd’s teaching philosophy! Feel the awesome…LOL!
Nearly every academic I came into contact with during my undergraduate years was averse to cultural relativity for the same reason you are – they couldn’t see it as an isolated methodology separate from moral relativity.
That’s not been my experience, ESPECIALLY in lit crit circles. It’s the exact opposite. Many (like you) aren’t even aware that you’re ethical/cultural relativists. Or, as I called you Anthropo cultural relativist. But you are…so you attack theories you have no understanding of.
Realize that I’m not trying to win this argument or antagonize you.
Hey, I don’t see how you could…
Your language is distractingly abrasive and it lessens you in your discourse. My thesis here is simply that I despise western-centric, often racist/nationalistic, evaluations of African problems and the “pull yourself up by your own bootstraps” mentality that plagues the west. I’m not asking that we don’t judge the ethics/morals of African behavior or policy or belief – I’m simply asking that we have a healthy understanding of our own roles in those things when doing so.
As I’ve said, this is an argument for the elimination of moral responsibility. Sure, we should know the history and whatnot of other cultures and our own involvement in promoting human suffering through colonialism… But that doesn’t in any way detract from the ethical responsibiliy they have for their behaviors and actions…it seems a nonsequitur, in fact, to play up the “healthy understanding” angle when we’re assessing moral culpability.
Quinn
Michael:
Don’t bother. Tank is a waste of time.
You’re right, and anyone who bothers to study history or crack a book knows it. Let the trolls feed themselves.
Dennis
@Michael:
Countries want our aid, and our money, but not our “values”?! (of tolerance, equal protection, etc)…well sorry, the man asked that we leave them alone…and I think we should, let him try to convince his countrymen/women to eat their values for lunch. Hopefully, they revolt and chop the fucker’s head off, or similar. As I said, there are lots of needing, deserving people on the planet, and I am beyond tired of ‘suffering fools gladly’ and then getting shitkicked for it.
God, do I sound like a rethuglican or what?…kind of scaring myself, here, but it’s how I feel.
The fact is, there ARE “backwards” belief systems, and fucked up/hypocritical and extremely corrupt governments that make our US Govt look like the best run organization on the planet. Scary, but true. And if we hold others to NO ETHICAL STANDARDS of conduct, how do things ever improve? How do we make a better world by endorsing hatred? Are we supposed to be like fucking Oprah for the entire world? Everybody gets a car! Everybody gets money, no restrictions whatsoever…
There are actually SOME problems in the world that we are not responsible for. I would postulate it is you who needs to ‘grow up’ and see the world in all it’s imperfections, and accept that aid with some strings attached (like promoting human decency and equal protection) is one way to move things in a more positive direction.
TANK
@Quinn:
That’s a great argument. Here’s my response to that amazing argument: go fuck yousrelf. See, it’s shorter, and more to the point but basically says the same thing.
Michael
Okay, Tank, this is going nowhere. We fundamentally disagree and we can’t get to any point because you respond to ideas that are not mine.
I’ll try to paraphrase this debate for new readers: Tank thinks that I’m painfully liberal, an apologist, bigot-sympathizing, amoral, white-guilt-ridden intellectual lightweight. I think Tank is an ethnocentric, nationalistic, hawkish, classist intellectual lightweight. We have managed to waste a solid hour comment-warring on an inconsequential comment section of a gay blog without coming to any common understandings, agreement, or potential system of recourse against homophobia, or really any other problem.
Tank will likely elect to have the last word, because he is far more invested in making this a right perspective/wrong perspective delineation than I am. Thanks for reading – and spay or neuter your pets.
TANK
@Michael:
I respond to ideas that aren’t yours? Like:
I don’t think anyone or any action/belief can be separated from the politics of the culture in which they exist, no. In my view, individuals and their cultures are co-conspirators of sorts for both better and worse.?
So unless you believe ethics is separate from action/belief, you’re a cultural/moral relativist. Pop cult anthropo ethics? And don’t blame me for taking this soft headed notion and obliterating it because it’s a harmful meme–blame logic.
And what exactly do we disagree on? I don’t yet have a coherent understanding of the incoherent position you take. IF the above is an expression of it…well, it’s self defeating.
Last word.
shelby84
Just for the record all black gay men aren’t this angry. I stopped being to so angry at white people and blaming them for shit. It’s old and you’ll never be free in it. I’m have my moments, but breath deep I won’t attack the first white person I see. I
And dammit queerty STOP TALKING ABOUT RACE! Because this it dialogue is so upsetting.