Oh how did we miss this latest entry into Certified CrazyTM arguments against same-sex marriage? Please join us in adding “It will hurt women! And make all men gay!” to our growing list of nonsense theories — and place it alongside the “It will hurt black families” farce.
Don’t act surprised when you learn it’s a conservative religious type trying to convince you same-sex marriage will hurt women. Beliefnet columnist David Klinghoffer, who declares himself not to be a Biblical scholar, quotes from Israel’s Bar-Ilan University professor Joshua Berman. We’ll reprint Berman’s argument below, but here’s the gist:
Those crazy gays aren’t just after same-sex marriage, but want mainstream homosexuality — sorry, homoeroticism — so one day Little Billy grows up in a world where men are engaged in romps with other men simply because it’s just so normal, and not because, uh, they’re sexually attracted to other men. Let history be our teacher!
[W]ere I a woman, I would be concerned by the tide of legislation now sweeping our country. [Ed: You know you’re entering problem territory when a man tries to adopt the mindset of a woman.]
To see how these ancient writings demonstrate that feminism and homosexuality are on a collision course, we need to first take a step back and consider the end-game of the gay and lesbian movement. The immediate aim is to win in the courts. But the ultimate aim is to win over the culture: to arrive at a day when homoeroticism is fully accepted. [Ed: Yes, we want gay sexy time all the time! That is our goal.]
Let’s fast-forward the video-tape and see what that day would look like. Johnny, a teenager, has pals who date boys and pals who date girls. In the movies, on billboards, Johnny sees depictions of men in love with men and of men in love with women. Johnny admires the picture in his principal’s office of the principal and his husband on their honeymoon. In this day, no one uses the word “homosexual” anymore, in just the same way that today no one uses the word “negro” — it’s so laden with the baggage of yesteryear’s bigotry. In fact, in this day, no one makes a big deal about sexual orientation at all. Johnny knows that when he seeks intimacy he is free to choose a blonde, a brunette, a Latina, a Phillipino, a guy, a girl; it’s all cool. Free choice and tolerance take the day.
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[…] Because of what you read in the the writers of imperial Rome. Some people are indeed homoerotic by nature. But others, as Aristotle noted, develop this as an acquired passion. Homoeroticism is, to a large degree, socially constructed. It turns out that where homoeroticism is granted full social sanction, as it was in Rome, it flourishes — so much so, that one writer noted that the emperor Claudius exhibited an unusual trait: he was sexually interested in women alone!
Men, we learn from ancient Rome, will enjoy sex with other men, if there is no social censure. Now, all of this should be fine for us as well — after all, we should let free choice and tolerance reign.
The real problems begin, however, when we read what these writers had to say about marriage. Consider this piece from the first century BCE poet Catullus (Carmen 61:134-141), in which the poet addresses himself to a bridegroom on the eve of his nuptials:
“You are said to find it hard, Perfumed bridegroom, to give up Smooth-skinned boys, but give them up… We realize you’ve only known Permitted pleasures: husbands, though, Have no right to the same pleasures.”
The social history behind this piece is clear: once they’ve experienced sex with other men, Catullus tells us, men are unsatisfied with what their new wives provide them. Notice that the poet is unconcerned about the husband’s dallying with other women — it’s the other men around that threaten the marital union. [Ed: Even if that argument held any water, we’re pretty sure Romans did a fine job procreating.]
You read all that correctly: Once we get this country to a point where gays are accepted, all men will want to screw other dudes, simply because they know somebody who does it. Having no real attraction to another dude’s genitals be damned! And this means men will leave their wives and girlfriends and mistresses and take up with other men and leave all the women in America alone, childless, and miserable.
Everytime we shoot ’em down, opponents just keep creating new far-fetched scare tactics. But fairytales are fun to read.
AlanInSLC
I think ancient Rome had it right. Lets go back to that mentality. 🙂
ggreen
Its so true men having sex with women has that Ick and gross factor. Just ask any republican/fundie/mormon/catholic. They all hate women.
Cam
Obviously a bunch of these religious types are closet cases, because otherwise why would they think that being gay would be so attractive to men that they would move towards it if it became acceptable. I have news for them, if a guy is straight, he isn’t going to dump his wife and run off with Clay Aiken just because it’s now “Ok to be gay”. The ONLY people who would think that would happen are people who are attracted to gay sex themselves…i.e. closet cases.
Orpheus_lost
This guy has spent an awfully long time researching the intimate details of man on man sex. I find it interesting that he can quote Roman writers on the subject so easily and has no problem conjuring up images of gay orgies in the middle of the street.
I’m guessing that Mr. Berman is about to pull a Haggert.
gus
But does Klinghoffer like oysters?
alan brickman
considering most women i know don’t like sex, know how to cook, or sew, clean these days and most guys gay or straight do…this would happen regardless….
Tommy
Maybe it’s true!! I was married to a woman once years and years ago. But so what if people run off with another guy! She didn’t care because it turned out she was a lesbian.
They’re too many married straight people anyway. A few less won’t matter.
J. Clarence
The roman population which was very liberal when it came to sex boomed and eventually grew too large. How does he reconcile this fact with his assumption.
In any case, if sex with men is that good that men would leave their ways, maybe that should say something.
I find it hilarious that these folks who degrade women constantly now want to come to their supposed aide. You have to appreciate the creativity of the conservative religious mind.
REBELComx
I’m all for going back to that Roman way of thinking. His argument doesn’t hold water. While many men did acquire a passion for man loving, it was still expected of men, (even who were naturally more homo than hetero) to take wives and produce offspring and heirs. And how do we know it was ACQUIRED anyway? Humanity has been displaying an appreciation of homoeroticism since we were living in caves. It’s like Kinsey showed – Everyone is bisexual…just different levels of it. And as far as marriage, Roman culture was a little more lax on the whole adultery thing. Married men and women still had affairs and participated in orgies and saw legal prostitutes. And married men often took youths as temporary spouses for romantic purposes as well as to advance the boy’s social and trade skills (yes, pedastry was considered a form of marriage).
Using Rome as an example of the “debauchery” and social downfall that homoeroticism would cause if mainstreamed is an Epic Fail in itself. Rome as an empire lasted nearly 1000 years and was one of the greatest empires ever to step foot on the face of the earth. It didn’t fail until after it became an increasingly socially conservative and Christianized nation.
pederasty is nasty
Ancient Rome had the right mentality!? The same culture that was okay with old man-on-little-boy sex? Didn’t you guys read that list at the end of “After the Ball” on no support of pederasty in public?
pederasty is nasty
Kinsey had a habit of conducting his studies with prisoners and child molesters. This might just..slightly skew his results regarding everyone’s bisexuality.
Besides, I thought bisexuals didn’t exist, you’re either gay or straight. At least, that’s the impression I get from gays. You think gays would be a little more tolerant or not try to tell someone what their orientation was.
Kinsey’s work was not only outrageously immoral(wouldn’t turn in the child molesters and baby rapers who was intervewing), it’s also technically worth little more than toilet paper.
His statistics mean nothing.
Well, except that some people think prison populations apparently are a good sample of the general population.
M Shane
Aside from the Roman bit, in which there is plenty of dispute,it seems that we can understand that the procreation of kidies(don’t think they had Turkey basters yet)
would be a civic duty and so the little woman sat at home taking vare of tots.
It being the nature of men to enjoy variety, even Emperor Claudius had a concubine away from home.
I have personally had sufficient coenough comnversations with straight men to know with great certainty that they are faithful in marriage only because women are possessive and keep a tight rein on their hubbies (one pussy forever, or none at all). BUT just imagine that once they came around to the knowledge that they could get quick blow jobs or what ever on the side from other dudes free with no strings attached they would probably regard that as the best option in the prison which marriage surely is.
Imagine what idiots most straight men think the marriage queens are today. Just stuck with one hag at home. Yuk!
I guess people who don’t think much have to learn the hard way.
Vanhattan
@pederasty is nasty: I never got closet cases trolling on gay blogs. Sort of creepy.
Joanaroo
Gotta give the christers credit in that boy, they can always picture sex with adults, children, farm animals, blow-up dolls, but their latest idiot, SC Gov. Sanford can’t even learn to keep his dick in his pants!
Joanaroo
Also, the only man/woman marriages that may end are already troubled ones where one or both may be gay and agreed to the old Hollywood-type false marriage to appear straight-and that to me is a good thing to end.
REBELComx
@pederasty is nasty:
Pederasty was an institution that was highly respected by ancient Greeks, Romans, Chinese, and Samurai cultures and was not “old man on little boy” sex. It existed not only as a romantic relationship but served to further education. It most often occurred between a man in his mid to late 20’s and youths, usually starting in their mid teens. If by “little boys” you mean preteens, the Romans did still have SOME ethics and peadophilia was still looked down upon. And by peadophilia I mean the correct use of the word, as in children who have not yet hit puberty. Lets not forget this was also when the average life span of a human was only about 30 and that it was common for 13-16yr olds to actually marry.
As far as Kinsey’s statistics, most statistics actually mean nothing. What’s the saying? 90% of all statistics are made up on the spot. Including this notion that only 2% of the American population is actually gay. That number keeps going down as the Right Wing uses it. Used to be 10%.
The Romans had the right idea. If it’s common place, there’s no qualms about it. It wasn’t until the Christians established their “same gender sex is evil” attitude within the political class in Rome that there were any issues with it. Homosexual behavior was commonplace and even regarded highly in some places outside Judea since the Paleolithic era. That’s a good 12 THOUSAND years that homoeroticism was just fine. Then Christianity took over the most powerful empire on the planet and it all went downhill from there.
girlyQ
Which explains why all of us are immediately going back to sleep with hetero partners. Because it’s in the culture. Don’t contradict me with your logic, I KNOW BECAUSE OF MY LEARNINGS.
Kay Fierce
I don’t know, he may have a point. I’m in no way anti-gay, on the contrary, I’,m as gay as Judy Garland song, but think about it. Why are straight men so hung up about gay sex? They’re obsessed with it.
What I’m saying is that men are sexual by nature, so when they’re confronted with any kind of sexuality, which is derided in society, their reaction is to go on attack mode, because, deep down, they have some hidden desire. So when they go on panic mode, what they are trying to do is re-establish their “manhood”. But that’s only my theory, I could be wrong.
M Shane
@Joanaroo :
That’s a mouthful: the failure rate for straight marriages is now %60 or higher if you count the 2nd and 3rd marriages-they are at around an %80 failure rate. Generally speaking marriage is mainly a female thing except in the movies. If it was up to men they would never or rarely occur.
That’s one reason gay marriage is so silly.
Joanaroo
Well, M. Shane, that’s just it. I’m female and never married because I never felt any need to. In my college years most of the men ended up marrying after graduation, even some I never thought would. How many have divorced I don’t know, but most straight marriages last 2.5 years. Alot of gay couples have been together for decades and if they want to marrx I say more power to them!
Brian
I am a married straight guy, I have no problem with homosexuals or Gay marriage, my only concern about homo eroticism becoming predominant in our culture is Pederasty ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece ) That seems to be the natural course based on history of when homo eroticism is. I am curios as to your opinion on the subject…
thanks
Brian
second to last sentence should be “That seems to be the natural course based on history of when homo eroticism is mainstream.”
sorry for the poor grammar
jason
I think what the homophobes fear is male bisexuality.
Most straight guys are actually bisexual in their orientation. What the homophobes fear is that these straight guys will turn to other men for their erotic needs.
Elbert
@jason: I agree exactly.
Joanaroo
Wanted to clear up that by “Hollywood-type” marriage I don’t mean IN the movies but I mean when in the silent era to the 50s, studios would take gay male actors and have them date and/or marry women to keep their gayness out of the public eye. Sad but true from the celluloid closet.
Distingué Traces
It sort of breaks my heart that these guys experience their sexuality as being so fragile.
TANK
There’s ten minutes of my life I’ll never get back. But hey, anyone who would believe in skypapi with the beard and thunder and disapproval and whatnot–well, this is a comparatively rational line of reasoning.
But guard those straight boys, girls…keep them for yourselves, please. Do whatever it takes to prevent them from experimenting and having hot gay sex–even if it means buying one of those big ole strapons to plug away. Keep ’em secure, questionable hygiene and all.
REBELcomx
@Brian: Please read my comments above you as i have already pointed out the nonsense of using Pederasty as an example. With today’s lifespans and modern schooling and an entire youth culture, pederasty as an institution isn’t something we have to worry about. And even in that article it clearly states that Pederasty at the time wasn’t any different than normal straight marriage, seeing as how common it was for men in their late 20s to their 30s to take wives in their early teens. As far as just an age difference between male lovers, we see such a difference very rarely as it is, especially in this modern image obsessed gay culture where you’re already ancient if you’re only 30, and 21 year olds won’t even talk to someone only 3 years older than them.
Robert, NYC
@Kay Fierce:
Kay, I also question why so many “straight” males are appalled at two males getting it on, yet….the majority of them find woman on woman sex hot, erotic and an utter turnon. Its beyond fucked up for sure, but I wonder what the real rationale is for their male homophobia? Maybe that needs to be explored a lot more. I’ve also encountered bisexual males who can’t even accept the fact that the male attraction isn ‘t gay just because they also like to have sex with women. Some even reject male on male kissing, that a same sex male couple could conceive of “making love” to one another which to them is reserved only for women.
Robert, NYC
@REBELComx:
Actually, ancient orthodox judaism preceded the christian tradition of same-sex attraction as an evil phenomenon, the book of Leviticus is evidence of that. “Christians” inherited the tradition as did Islam.
Brian, pederasty is not that common in western culture, but pedophilia is which is often gender neutral no matter the gender of the perpetrators. Department of Justice crime statistics cite that three out of every four cases girls are the victims. When its a same sex male perpetrator, then it becomes more sensationalized and becomes fodder for the opponents of equality for LGBT people usually fueled by religious beliefs. So your fears of pederasty becoming predominant as a result of homo-eroticism, are extremely remote at best. There are many straight males who view gay porn but never indulge in same-sex activity and many are married too.
Swedish Fish
What I’d like to know is why these people reach out to these weird stories about ‘what might happen’ and don’t instead just look at other modern countries that have already legalized gay marriage. You don’t have to look all the way back to the Roman Empire… It’s happening now.
Tyni1
I haven’t stopped laughing since I read this article. Holy crapola! That’s the funniest thing I’ve read in a week. 🙂
From my reasoning, gay marriage is already legal, it’s just legally battling religious interference. Now, since forever they’ve been bisexual and gay women. No one is in an uproar about women leaving men for other women because they think that shit is HOT.
What a bunch o hypocrites! lol
Robert, NYC
@Tyni1:
Of course its hypocrisy, straights have an overwhelming monopoly on that one. Those straight men who find lesbian sex hot need to get themselves into therapy to find out why they’re so averse to male on male sex. I suspect it has a lot to do with their own unresolved sexual conflicts, refusing to admit that some are attracted to their own gender but deflect it by protestation and fake abhorrence and the stigma, fear of being found out, low self-esteem. The sexually well adjusted straight male wouldn’t react that way or so obviously to feel threatened by his own gender having sex with other males. I always believe in the old addage….the ones who protest too much…..are the most suspect.
galefan2004
@Cam: That is pretty much exactly what I thought when reading this. The dude has issues.
galefan2004
@alan brickman: Yes because all women are good for is sex, cooking, sewing and cleaning. Sexist much?
tinkerbell
I’ve had more marriage offers as an out gay man from straight women than I have had from gay men. Both of them were from my straight girl friends and were sincere. Of course, I turned them down. Just goes to show that we aren’t a threat to straight marriage. I love my girl friends, I just don’t want to marry/sleep with them.
Sluggo2007
Straight men will leave their wives for other guys? For what it’s worth, my husband left his wife for me over 30 years ago, long before there was gay marriage.