It’s sort of weird to think that a church would have a trailer, but hey, it’s 2010, and everything is a brand now. Including the United Church of Christ, which just debuted this “Language of God” web spot. It’s pretty fantastic, but it’s pretty hard to suck at a branding exercise more than the Catholic Church right now.
branding
In Case You’re Shopping For a Place of Worship, The United Church of Christ Would Love to Have You
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Andy
No, thanks. I’ll go without campfire stories from superstitious semi-nomads.
Fitz
That’s nice, I guess. Personally, I think that their technology (faith) is old, and that there are better ways for me to get my needs met. But for people who want someone to do their thinking for them, Church might be a way to go.
D'oh, The Magnificent
It is funny how peo crap on others for their faith. You don’t have to be a part of what they believe. I am not a part of it. But, unless they are attacking you, there is absolutely no reason for the vitriol. Just goes to show that bigotry is human rather than specific to one group. Live and let live in this case, and stop whining about others who are not forcing you to do believe what they do.
thomas
I attend a UCC church, and actually, they challenge me and provide opportunities for me to think, more than any other place I go during the week. They actually really challenge me to be a better person and to shape a a life with some spiritual fulfillment, on my terms and at my own pace, and finding my own meaning. They’re great people, they’ve been very welcoming, they’re very smart, and they’ve been very patient with my ignorance and doubts. I really look forward to going to church every week and I’ve made some great friends there. I can’t believe I’m saying that, because I’ve been very wary of organized Christianity most of my life, but I’ve had a good experience with my local UCC. Each one is different and self-governing, though, and that’s part of their strength. I encourage you to find a local one with a strong music program and a smart pastor and see what they’re about.
Andy
@D’oh, The Magnificent: Bigotry, right. This site chronicles all the self-proclaimed atheists who bash gays. Oh wait.
jeffree
Very honest questions. Does the UCC consider me “defective” because I am gay? Do I need to become a member of your church to be a kind, moral, decent person?
If not–and I hope it *is* NOT–how does the UCC church reconcile the Bible with what modern science has to say about homosexuality? What does that church teach about my need to believe in their religion to score “eternal life”?
I am a rational person, but 95% of what I have experienced at the hands of religious people is the message that I am a sinner, going straight to hell, and unworthy of the [mythical] afterlife called “Heaven.”
I try keeping an open mind, but so far all I see is Christians being filled with hate, bigotry, racism, sexism,.and [lol] way too many calories.
Ogre Magi
@thomas: Who are these losers to presume to challenge you? It seems like they have convinced you, that you are ignorant and have made you self doubting. Stand proud as a gay male and throw off their shackles!
Justin
I lucked out and started going to UCC when I was nine since my parents are liberals. It spared me from the self-hatred many other gay Christians encounter when they realize who they are. When I came to the realization I was gay, I never once had to worry that it would conflict with my faith.
The fact that UCC members (for the most part) believe in evolution and believe the book of Genesis is to be taken symbolically, not literally, was a major plus for me, as I was never able to believe in Creationism in a literal sense.
I will never tell people they have to go to this church (one of the other things UCC is known for is its lack of evangelism and the standard Christian creed that all non-believers are going to Hell), but if you’re looking for a Christian Church that will accept you (and not in the “We love you as a person but hate your homosexuality. We’ll pray for you,” way), United Church of Christ is the way to go.
Just my two cents.
Mark
I am happily gay and a member for the last year and a half of the local Unity Church, which is very gay friendly in the deep south (east Tennessee). We are not a ‘gay church’, but we are gay friendly, having several gay members (even high up in the church). Unity doesn’t preach going to hell…we have 5 beliefs.
1.”God is the source and creator of all. There is no other enduring power. God is good and present everywhere.”
2.”We are spiritual beings, created in God’s image. The spirit of God lives within each person; therefore, all people are inherently good.”
3.”We create our life experiences through our way of thinking.”
4.”There is power in affirmative prayer, which we believe increases our connection to God.”
5.”Knowledge of these spiritual principles is not enough. We must live them.”
Beyond that, we are very open to other belief systems and don’t bash someone for believing differently (or not believing at all) what we belief.
Paschal
@jeffree: I’m an atheist myself but I think that many Christians are taking biblical mentions of homosexuality out of context and ignore things in the Bible which they don’t like and/or are ignorant of. There are six negative mentions of gay sexual acts in the Bible yet there are 362 negative mentions of straight sexual acts. The only mention of homosexuality in the New Testament is St. Paul quoting the Old Testament. Jesus said NOTHING about homosexuality but had something to say about adultery and treating others as you would like them to treat you. People at the time the various parts of the Bible were written didn’t think of homosexuality as a sexual orientation. The idea of loving, commited same-sex couples wasn’t known to people at the time. Many Christians stand up for the message of Jesus which is love. I applaud any Christian, etc. who takes back their religion from bigotes who abuse it. As I said, I’m an atheist (I’m also a secular humanist), but I have respect for the message of Jesus, whether or not he actually existed ot whether or not he was divine.
Paschal
*bigots
DR
Do some of you even know anything about the UCC and its stand on gay rights or are you just jumping on the “let’s bash the Christians” bandwagon so common to many gay blogs?
The UCC General Synod adopted an Open and Affirming position in 1985. It has been giving GLBT members the opportunity to participate in the full sacramental life of the UCC for 25 years now. It’s been at the forefront of GLBT rights for decades, most recently sending letters to the President and Joint Chiefs of staff encouraging them to repeal DADT. It has a solid sex ed program based in science as well as faith. It’s been pro-choice for decades. It’s pro-female. Pro-minority.
The UCC is the most inclusive and progressive Christian denomination out there. Admittedly, since it’s congregational in nature, not all UCC churches will follow the General Synod, but most do in fact if not in name (for example, while many have not adopted the Open and Affirming position, you’d be hard-pressed to find a UCC denomination which doesn’t allow full participation by its GLBT members in fact).
The UCC has a great balance between faith and putting that faith into action in the world. Let’s not engage in pointless bashing just for the sake of bashing a Christian church.
Steve
I am frequently surprised when I read comments to articles about churches, in which the writer claims to know that all Christian churches practice hate and condemnation. I am sure that some preachers who claim to be “Christian” do teach that nonsense. But, there are vast differences between churches.
The UCC ministers whom I have met are all kind, loving people. UCC churches welcome gay people, minister to gay people, and do not teach that being gay is a sin of any sort.
See, http://www.ucc.org/lgbt/about.html
God makes some people gay. But, God does not make people hateful bigots — that really is a choice.
Mark Cahill
@D’oh, The Magnificent: Religion branded homosexuals as wrong, sinful and deviant.
Some of us object to the continued teaching of that traditional Christian belief. They teach it to our children before they can even think.
UCC has never formally rejected the Christian belief that we are wrong. They should do that before marketing to the LGBT Community.
Jeff K.
While it’s nice to find a tolerant sect of Christianity for a change, keep in mind that for every gay-loving Christian out there there are two or three fundamentalists who wouldn’t think twice about having you castrated, sent to live in a camp, or outright executed. Keep this in mind, folks.
Symonds
I wouldn’t say that I buy the whole message of Christianity, but I’ve been going to the local UCC church for a little over a year now, and I’ve gotta say that it’s been a very positive experience.
The pro-GLBT message isn’t just a smokescreen. The current pastor happens to be straight (the previous was lesbian), but will still usually work gay and lesbian issues in to the sermon. Sometime’s he’s pretty fired up about it, too- it’s amazing to listen to a guy who hates anti-gay bigotry *because he’s Christian*.
And I haven’t even gotten to the part where they will often pass around a separate collection for particular issues (Haiti, local homelessness, etc.), so that you can donate money specifically to a good cause without worrying that 90% of it will just go to keeping the building air-conditioned. This particular church is in a pretty conservative smallish town in Texas, and has avoided any backlash in large part because it has the highest reputation for real charity.
Bottom line- Christianity isn’t what’s in the Bible, or the hotline to God’s sense of moral indignation, or some monolithic agent of hatred. Christianity is a group of people, and the sum total of what Christians do, nothing more and nothing less. That doesn’t have to be a bad thing.
Brian
I’m an atheist that grew up with the UCC, and just want to say this is the most gay friendly, progressive church you can find. And keep in mind this is really the church of the Pilgrims of Plymouth Rock, still predominantly a New England church, but its theology has changed dramatically since the “banned in Boston” days. That’s the whole point of their “god is still speaking” message. So they absolutely don’t think of gays as defective or the bible as relevant on this issue. The bible was god speaking 2,000 years ago, and according to UCC he hasn’t stopped since. The mode of communication, the message, that adapts with the world, and love, of the gay or straight variety, is his message.
I would also say that even if you don’t believe in anything, like me, you’re an idiot to attack this church, or other denominations like the episcopalians that are coming around. Like it or not, this is a religious country, and it matters that mainstream protestant denominations are full-throated supporters of gay rights.
Ogre Magi
@Brian: Liberal christians are just enablers of the more conservative variety. We would do well to be rid of all of them.The Abrahamic religions have always been our enemies and always will be.
Cassandra
Ogre Magi
You’ve just provided an explicit example of the point I’ve been arguing for several months now: atheism is nothing more than bigotry.
“Liberal christians are just enablers of the more conservative variety. We would do well to be rid of all of them.”
Your statement above is identical in purpose and intent to anti-gay propoganda that declares society would be better to be rid of homosexuals. You are no better than the SSempa, he talks gays and lesbians, you target people of faith.
Jeff K., your statistics are an ugly, bigoted fantasy. Homophobic Christians, like homophobic atheists, are very visible, but they do not out-number liberal/progressive and moderate Christians 2 or 3 to 1. Be rational – since the majority of all voters in the U.S. define themselves as people of faith, the vast majority of all support for GLBTQ civil rights has come from people of faith. Atheists have contributed very, very little, and many proudly articulate anti-gay prejudice based on pseudo-science or pseudo-philosophy.
Mark Cahill – you are either lying about UCC, or uninformed, because you statement “UCC has never formally rejected the Christian belief that we are wrong” is false. And no, you can’t make you lie a truth by using subjective weasel terms like ‘formally’ that allow you to redefine and redefine what ‘formally’ is in response to every statement from UCC rejecting ‘homosexuality is sin’ as being not formal enough for you. Homophobes do the same ugly trick when caught in lies about homosexuality.
The three of you are using exactly the same tactics, the same level of dishonesty and dehumanization, that homophobes use all the time. You are peers of Porno Pete, Fred Phelps, and all the rest – the only difference is in who you chose to target.
Mark Cahill
@Cassandra: Post the formal statement from UCC that they have rejected the traditional Christian belief that homosexuals are wrong, sinful or deviant. Post it.
Less than 1% of UCCs churches have adopted their “open and affirming” marketing ploy.
As Christians they still believe that homosexuality is wrong. Welcoming you is more about money than their doctrine. Look it up.
Cassandra
Mark
I realize that some people are atheists solely so they can excuse themselves from any level of ethical or moral constrait, so your deceitfulness is purposeful.
“As Christians they still believe that homosexuality is wrong. Welcoming you is more about money than their doctrine. Look it up.”
As the (false) accuser, you have the burden of proof, unless you reject ‘innocent until proven guilty’. So, in your own words, post proof that UCC “still believes that homosexuality is wrong”.
Your claims are false, and you, having made them, have the burden of substantiating them. The fact that you have attempt to shift that burden to others, implies that you know you are wrong.
You and your peers make ugly accusations, you need to provide evidence. Failing to do so indicates deliberately and purposeful, deception on your part.
thomas
@Mark Cahill:
I wouldn’t claim the UCC is perfect and every UCC congregation or member applauds gays. But the organization at the top does, and works to promote acceptance from the top down, and I’ve personally witnessed the regional UCC director address this very issue at my church in a sensitive, affirming, welcoming and inspirational way. Apparently my own local church was almost ripped apart over the Open and Affirming issue back in the late ’90s, before my time there. Today? My personal experience has been one of really amazing welcome to me and my partner, and we are not the only same sex couples. More work to do? Yes. Partly a generational issue? Yes. But I absolutely cannot fault the welcome, encouragement and support they have given me.
Resolutions about LGBT issues date back to 1975 at the following page Social Policy Statements on LGBT Concerns http://www.ucc.org/lgbt/statements.html
I think it is in the 90’s that I see more the language you are asking for… starting in 1991 or so:
From 1993 “RESOLUTION CALLING ON THE CHURCH FOR GREATER LEADERSHIP TO END DISCRIMINATION AGAINST
GAYS AND LESBIANS
[Adopted by the nineteenth General Synod in St Louis, MO, 1993]
Whereas, God is the creator of all people, including people of differing sexual orientations; and
Whereas, human sexuality is a gift of God, a gift to enjoy and to express responsibly; and
Whereas, moral judgments should not be made about who people are but rather on the basis of how community and covenant are formed and what responsible expression of sexuality might mean among people of all sexual orientations; and
Whereas, anything that robs people of their human dignity is a sin; and
Whereas, laws that discriminate against people based on their sexual orientation and rob them of their human dignity are wrong and sinful; and
Whereas, scripture is God’s word of love for the human family, a history of God bringing good news to the oppressed, the brokenhearted, the captives, calling all people to redefine who should be called the neighbor that human community might be built; and
Whereas, those who turn the gospel of love into a gospel of hate should be considered false prophets; and
Whereas, the Tenth General Synod in 1975 issued a pronouncement on Civil Liberties Without Discrimination Related to Affectional or Sexual Preference [Orientation], and similar national statements have been issued in 1969, 1973, and at every General Synod since 1975,
Be It Therefore Resolved, that the Nineteenth General Synod of the United Church of Christ:
1. calls for the passage of a federal gay and lesbian civil rights law that will end discrimination in employment, housing, public accommodations, and federally assisted opportunities;
2. calls for an end to all state “sodomy laws” used to provide legal sanction for discrimination against gays and lesbians;
3. calls for passage of domestic partnership laws designed to provide greater justice for gay and lesbians;
4. opposes attempts in Missouri, and any other state, to file petitions and pass laws to prevent the civil rights of gays and lesbians from being protected;
5. calls for lifting of the ban on gays and lesbians in the military and expresses its gratitude to United Church of Christ Chaplains in the military who have been working to help the military come to terms with the issue of social justice;
6. calls for education and leadership to help the church and society understand moral and legal issues relating to bisexuality; and
7. urges churches and church members to take more leadership in ending the legal sanctioning of discrimination against gays and lesbians and in countering the prevailing public perception that the religious community supports such discrimination.”
From the 1991, “Resolution on Affirming Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual Persons and their Ministries”
“RESOLUTION ON AFFIRMING GAY, LESBIAN
AND BISEXUALPERSONS AND THEIR MINISTRIES
[Adopted by the Eighteenth General Synod, United Church of Christ, Norfolk, Virginia, June 27-July 2, 1991.]
Whereas, in the words of the Apostle Paul, we know that “the whole creation has been groaning in travail” and we, too, feel these pains as we struggle to grow in our understanding of human sexuality;
Whereas, the actions of General Synods 10, 11, 14, 15 16 and 17 have supported human rights of all persons in church and society, regardless of sexual orientation;
Whereas, lesbian, gay, bisexual persons and their families have shared their gifts for ministry throughout the church, and through their stories and ministries the United Church of Christ has come to a deeper understanding of the diversity of God’s creation and the inclusiveness of God’s call;
Therefore, Be It Resolved, the Eighteenth General Synod boldly affirms, celebrates and embraces the gifts for ministry of lesbian, gay and bisexual persons, and faithfully continues to work for justice in our church and society:
Calls upon local churches, Associations and Conferences to adopt an Open and Affirming policy. (i.e. a non-discrimination policy and a covenant of openness and affirmation of persons of lesbian, gay and bisexual orientation within the community of faith. CF: Fifteenth General Synod, 1985.)
Urgently calls upon local churches, Associations, Conferences to engage in a disciplined dialogue in which the biblical and theological foundation for congregations to be open and affirming of gay, lesbian, and bisexual persons are prayerfully discussed in light of the teachings of Jesus Christ and our Christian vocation to live as communities of grace”
Cassandra
Thomas
Mark and his peers use the term ‘formally’ so they can create a moving target that always, conveniently, excludes any statement from any GLBTQ welcoming denomination or congregation on the grounds that it is not formal enough.
Presented with an exhaustive treatise from MCC refuting traditional anti-gay theology – their response ‘it ain’t formal enough’. Presented with evidence of decades of the UCC supporting civil equality for GLBTQ people, with explicit statements condemning anti-gay prejudice – their response is ‘it ain’t formal enough’.
The terrible irony is that people here scream bloody murder when someone homophobe insists that all GLBTQ people must formally denounce NAMBLA to prove that we aren’t all pedophiles – and then turn around and do the exact same thing to progressive Christians.
That’s why I argue that atheism is just another ugly prejudice – those who are caught up in it use exactly the same talking points, arguments, techniques and games to extol their contempt for other people.
Jeff K.
@Cassandra: Atheism is by definintion merely a lack of belief in gods. What else do you think atheism entails that would merit its classification as “just another ugly prejudice?” Did an atheist bite you as a little girl, or something? 😛
Justin
Re; UCC and gay marriage, at the 2005 General Synod a resolution was passed to endorse “full civil and religious marriage equality for same-sex couples.” The vote was 80-20 by the delegates present. And the last figure I saw, from 2007, puts the number of Open and Affirming Congregations at about 650 out of just over 5,000 congregations. So while it’s not currently the majority to say it’s supported by only 1% of congregations is false.
The pastor of my UCC when I was growing up, a straight married woman, was a fierce advocate for LGBT in Boise (which is coming around and becoming progressive but was a conservative bastion in the 1990’s) and she helped to counter the long list of Baptists and Mormons that tried to make our life a living Hell.
Marvin Vann
@Mark Cahill: That’s actually quite easy to do, Mark. Since the late ’60’s, numerous UCC General Conventions have adopted statements affirming GLBT rights, correcting what we regard as misapplications and misreadings of the Bible, and apologizing for what GLBT people have experienced at the hands of people misusing Christian faith as a cudgel and instrument of oppression. They are mostly too long and too numerous to quote, but just visit http://www.ucc.org/lgbt/statements.html; for example, the link to the 2005 General Synod’s adopted statement, “Equal Marriage Rights for All.” Here’s a sample of what you’ll find:
WHEREAS the Bible affirms and celebrates human expressions of love and partnership, calling us to live out fully that gift of God in responsible, faithful, committed relationships that
recognize and respect the image of God in all people; and
WHEREAS the life and example of Jesus of Nazareth provides a model of radically inclusive love and abundant welcome for all; and WHEREAS we proclain ourselves to be listening to the voice of a Still Speaking God at that at all times in human history there is always yet more light and truth to break forth from God’s holy word; . . .
THEREFORE LET IT BE RESOLVED, that the Twenty-fifth General Synod of the United Church of Christ affirms equal marriage rights for couples regardless of gender . . . .
And this plays out on the ground. My partner and I were married by our (straight) pastor, in our local UCC church, with much of the (majority straight) congregation attending, right here in conservative North Texas nearly four years ago.
Mark Cahill
@Marvin Vann: But they never disavow the traditional Christian belief that homosexuality is wrong.
This issue is like slavery (endorsed in the Bible) only Episcopalians adopted a formal statement condemning slavery despite biblical references.
Only 1% of UCC Churches in the US are “open and affirming.” None have formally said that the crap about homosexuals ISN’T TRUE.
Mark Cahill
@Justin: Open and affirming means you are welcome to attend. UCC has never formally said homosexuality is not wrong, sinful or deviant.
You are correct that about 10% of the UCC churches are now Open and Affirming.
UCC defines “Open and Affirming” on their website:
1. What does “Open and Affirming (ONA) mean?
To say that a setting of the UCC (a local church, campus ministry etc.) is “Open and Affirming” means that it has publicly declared that “lesbian, gay, bisexual” (LGB) people (or those of all “sexual orientations”) are welcome in its full life and ministry (e.g. membership, leadership, employment etc.) It bespeaks a spirit of hospitality and a willingness to live out that welcome in meaningful ways.
Marvin Vann
@Mark Cahill: Mark, this getting to be like the argument in Monty Python and the Holy Grail with the villagers so intent on finding a woman to be a witch that they simply refuse to believe the evidence in front of them. UCC statements at General Synod have repeatedly disavowed the belief that homosexuality is wrong. If I say, “homosexuality is not a sin” then anyone with the least bit of logic knows my statement also means, “the belief that homexuality is a sin is wrong.” When the UCC endorses statements apologizing for centuries of Christian prejudice toward GLBT folks, what do you think they’re apologizing for? When the UCC opens all levels of its ministry to GLBT folks, celebrates our marriages with us, ordains us, stands with us in picket lines against homophobia, lobbies legislatures with us and for us, what do you think all that means?
Like you, I look forward to the day when these statements are even clearer. But I also think one shouldn’t let the perfect become the enemy of the good. I know that this church is not just headed in the right direction, but in fact, has already progressed very far down the road toward complete, full and vociferous support of GLBT people along with many other victims of prejudice.
Kitty
Here is the cartoon that I think the gay Christians here will like. Don’t worry it is SFW and has a good message. If you like it let me know, the artist is a friend of mine
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1851
Cassandra
“Atheism is by definintion merely a lack of belief in gods.”
No. Atheism is, by definition, the assertion that God does not exist. There is a difference.
“What else do you think atheism entails that would merit its classification as “just another ugly prejudice?” ”
Gee, didn’t you read past the part that made you feel defensive?
“those who are caught up in it use exactly the same talking points, arguments, techniques and games to extol their contempt for other people”
Religion is the accumulated experiences, narratives, testimony, analysis and expression of people’s experiences of the Divine. It is based on people’s experiences of something intangible.
Atheism implicitly, and too often in the mouths of atheists, simply rejects, without evidence, this testimony to experience, solely on the grounds that it represents “those” people’s testimony. That is prejudice. Atheism, at its core, asserts that people, the majority of all humans in recorded history, are simply wrong about their own experiences.
Homophobia makes exactly the same case about sexuality. Racism, in attacking the self-worth, makes the same case regarding race, and sexism does the same based on gender.
“Did an atheist bite you as a little girl, or something? :P”
The mocking and degrading response you closed with supports my assertion – you are expressing prejudice and nothing more.
Mark Cahill
@Marvin Vann: It’s not hard for UCC to complete a very simple and direct statement:
Homosexuality is not wrong, sinful or deviant.”
Unless they don’t want to change that part of traditional Christian belief. Welcome and affirming aren’t enough.
Cassandra
Mark Cahill
You still have not provided any evidence to support your claims.
“Open and affirming means you are welcome to attend.”
No, it does not. Affirm means to state or assert positively. Since the condemnation of homosexuality is an intrinsic negation of the very worth of GLBTQ people, affirming their worth requires first rejecting ‘homosexuality is sin’.
It means that homosexuality is not perceived as sin, that GLBTQ people are not ‘excluded from heaven’, and is a conceptual negation of the homophobic spin on the passage from 1st Corinthians.
Part of the problem here is that you (and your peers) really do not understand the context involved – you do not understand how theology is spoken or written about, particularly progressive/liberal theology. Liberal/Progressive theology focus on principles to avoid the danger of literalism that has lead conservative theology into so much trouble.
So, when you don’t see the exact words you used in play, you stomp your feet and scream ‘they didn’t say it’. But texts like those provided so far are not written for petulant children, and express meanings with insight and nuance. The texts you and your peers routinely reject out of hand are not written for you, they are written for people of faith, addressing our needs and our communicative culture.
Just like gay pride parades are not for the benefit of homophobes, the gay-affirming messages from UCC and MCC are not for the benefit of atheists. And just as homophobes can either believe or reject the testimony of GLBTQ people about our culture and experiences and institutions (like pride parades), you can either believe or reject the testimony of people of faith about religious materials presented. When a homophobe rejects the testimony of GLBTQ people, that’s prejudice at work. If you chose to reject the testimony of people of faith, it would be prejudice as well.
Mark, you are demanding, and dismissing evidence to refute your charge, but you still have not provided any evidence, whatsoever, to substantiate your charge.
Until you prove your charges accurate, reasonable and rational people have no reason whatsoever to believe you. Several people with first hand experience in UCC have told you that you are wrong.
The longer you go without providing substantiating evidence for your accusations, the worse it gets for you.
Cassandra
Mark Cahill
You make the accusation “As Christians they still believe that homosexuality is wrong.”
Back it up. To paraphrase your own statement earlier:
Post the formal statement from UCC that they support the traditional Christian belief that homosexuals are wrong, sinful or deviant. Post it.
The fact that their statements repudiating anti-gay theology aren’t phrased exactly the way you demand does not invalidate those statements. It just means your demands are not particularly important. Put your ego away, and either retract your accusations, or provide evidence to support them.
Cassandra
Another paraphrase to point out the irrationality of Mark Cahill’s posts.
It’s not hard for American Atheists to complete a very simple and direct statement:
Homosexuality is not wrong, sinful or deviant.”
Unless they don’t want to change that part of traditional atheist belief. Welcome and affirming aren’t enough.
I’ve yet to find a statement on the American Atheist website stating “homosexuality is not wrong, sinful or deviant”. Per Mark’s logic, atheists must all universally condemn homosexuality, no matter what any individual atheist says to the contrary, and only pretend to accept homosexuals as atheists in order to get their money. (And there is both a membership dues page, and a store where you can financially support atheism, on the AA website – clearly, it is all about the moola).
Jeff K.
@Cassandra: You really don’t know what you’re talking about. I don’t really want to spend the time explaining to you what atheism means because frankly I don’t think you’ll take the time to correct your misconceptions. I’ll just give you this link and tell you to read up on implicit and explicit atheism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
“Atheism implicitly, and too often in the mouths of atheists, simply rejects, without evidence, this testimony to experience, solely on the grounds that it represents “those” people’s testimony.”
Experience isn’t the same thing as evidence. Does the word “hallucination” ring a bell? People have active imaginations, and sometimes the things they imagine can seem so real that they actually say they experienced them. Doesn’t make it true.
“That is prejudice. Atheism, at its core, asserts that people, the majority of all humans in recorded history, are simply wrong about their own experiences.”
Two billion Catholics believe the pope is infallible. Does that make it true? What if everyone believed it? What if only one person believed it? The number of people who believe something has no bearing on that belief’s veracity.
jeffree
@DR: Not knowing those things that is why I asked my questions. Because I am open. I did not come here to bash or attack you. My questions were honest. @Paschal: Thanks for answering some of my questions.
——-
I attended a MCC church for a while, and that particular group was made up of people who were there because they left or were kicked out of another church. Not a lot of enthusiasm in that grp, but I hear good things about some other groups.
If I were going to a church, i’d like it to be
mixed LGB Straight, because I want to be part of the larger community and deal with a wide variety of social issues.
jeffree
@Marvin Vann: Thanks for the links regarding UCC teachings/beliefs. Now I need to read 🙂
I think many of us in the LGB community have had nasty sad bad experiences with religious teachings and people. I’ve heard so much hate from “Christians” that I admit I don’t typically pursue a friend ship with someone who comes out as Christian. Coming from semi-rural area we didn’t go to church much, but our neighbors would try to bribe us to go to church with them…
The Point Is : The UCC is doing/saying/teaching some things that many LGBs havent heard from christians before, and so faces skecpticism and maybe some disbelief from people whove been burned by religion.
If they can add to any LGBs life, and help her/him feel more connected with their community & with spirituality, then thats great.
Mark Cahill
It’s amazing that when anyone discusses the issue of religion and the LGBT Community people are attacked as atheists.
I’m not going to quarrel with you Cassandra – history proves that Christianity has taught “homosexuality is wrong, sinful and deviant” for 2,000 years. That’s a fact.
If you are happy because you’ve been “accepted” by MCC or UCC, good for you. Acceptance isn’t the problem – there is nothing wrong with us. But, real progress would be for Christians (including MCC and UCC) to officially declare that “homosexuality is NOT wrong, sinful or deviant.” That would be clear.
It’s not hard to do – I’ve done it 3 times in this comment thread. If they really want the LGBT Community to support them, they need to set the record straight. It’s very easy to do. There is no excuse to NOT do it.
Brian
I know this is a waste of time, but Mark just read the opening paragraph of the resolution which I cut and pasted from an above comment:
“Whereas, God is the creator of all people, including people of differing sexual orientations; and
Whereas, human sexuality is a gift of God, a gift to enjoy and to express responsibly; and
Whereas, moral judgments should not be made about who people are but rather on the basis of how community and covenant are formed and what responsible expression of sexuality might mean among people of all sexual orientations; and
Whereas, anything that robs people of their human dignity is a sin; and
Whereas, laws that discriminate against people based on their sexual orientation and rob them of their human dignity are wrong and sinful”
This won’t mean anything to you because you’re hung up on your exact phrase, but I think what they’ve written is much more powerful than what you’re asking for. You want them to say it’s not wrong or a sin to be gay. The UCC has gone further in my opinion, by saying here, it’s not a sin, it’s a gift from god. And not only that, the only sin here is people discriminating against gays. You’re asking for a statement of neutrality from the church, and instead they’ve given you a statement of active, impassioned support. They’d have no problem making your declaration, they just thought your’s was too wimpy.
Mark Cahill
@Brian: Your Resolution says “homosexuality is a gift from God” like other Resolutions that say “Downs Syndrome is a gift from God.”
Stop the double-talk. It’s very, very easy to just say:
“Homosexuality is not wrong, sinful or deviant.”
UCC can make that formal statement. It’s not hard.
Brian
No, it says “human sexuality”, not “homosexuality”, so both types of orientations are equally valid in the eyes of god. The only double talk is coming from you. And your continued insistence on the exact wording of your statement is stupid. It’s a church after all, not the HRC. Your statement is basically a wimpier version of theirs, with all religious references taken out. It’s a church, it makes religious statements, not political ones. They’ve said over and over that being gay is completely equivalent to being straight, that it’s sinful to oppose gay rights, etc. You’re just not willing to lose this argument for pride reasons I guess, but rather than admit that this is one exception to the general rule that organized religion is a big obstacle to gay rights, you play (and lose) at silly word games.
And it’s not my church, as I said earlier I’m a confirmed atheist (not agnostic), but I know an ally when I see one, and the UCC is a great ally.
Keith
I too don’t see how the affirmation given in their own words, is not sufficient. Having said that, they may be an ally to gays, but what about Atheists, Brian?
Cassandra
“I’m not going to quarrel with you Cassandra – history proves that Christianity has taught “homosexuality is wrong, sinful and deviant” for 2,000 years. That’s a fact.”
You can’t argue. Your fact is an exaggeration so extreme it is a lie. History proves that Christianity is an extremely diverse and nuanced, enormous body of opinion and experience. You are doing the exact same thing that homophobes do – cherry-pick the portion of a group that you can distort to suit your prejudice, and apply that distortion to every person who shares the common trait.
“It’s amazing that when anyone . . .” It is amazing that you continue to demand evidence to refute the charges you have completely failed to substantiate. Clearly, all of your noise and bluster is a cover for being knowingly wrong and deliberately deceptive.
“If you are happy because you’ve been “accepted” ”
Ah yeah, that typical bigot tactic of putting an accurate word in quotes to create a false sense of doubt. People here get pissed when some homophobe refers to same-sex “marriage” or puts “love” in quotes when talking about our relationships. Now you do the same thing to me about my life.
“by MCC or UCC, good for you. Acceptance isn’t the problem – there is nothing wrong with us. But, real progress would be for Christians (including MCC and UCC) to officially declare that “homosexuality is NOT wrong, sinful or deviant.” That would be clear.”
Both denominations do declare that homosexuality is not wrong, not a sin, not deviant. You simply dismiss how they do so, because no matter what any person of faith says or does, it will never be good enough for you. That is your prejudice in play.
“It’s not hard to do – I’ve done it 3 times in this comment thread.”
Honesty seems to be hard for you though. And you appear to be struggling to meet the same demand you make of others, for you still have not provided any evidence whatsoever to backup your claims about the UCC. All you’ve done is bellow your abusive little slogan like some Fred Phelps wannabe.
“There is no excuse to NOT do it.”
If your claims about UCC were accurate, substantiating them with links would be easy to do, and there’s no excuse to NOT do so . .
and yet, you have not. It is clear why.
You are wrong. Now the question is, did you know that at the start?
Marvin Vann
Mark, you are quite right that the dominant Christian voices of the past two thousand years have called homosexuality wrong, sinful and deviant.
I doubt you are asking for a statement that uses the exact language you have proposed; I trust you interested in the assertion, not a particular string of words.
You seem to be demanding–reasonably, I think–that a group such as the UCC, whose statements in General Synod and in recent advertisements seem to claim to affirm LGBT people, should, given this ugly history of anti-gay teachings by dominant Christian voices, clearly acknowledge and oppose such teachings.
I’d call your attention to several statements that aim to do just that. The first is from the Preamble to the “RESOLUTION CALLING ON THE CHURCH FOR GREATER LEADERSHIP TO END DISCRIMINATION AGAINST GAYS AND LESBIANS” adopted at our General Synod back in 1993:
“Whereas, anything that robs people of their human dignity is a sin; and Whereas, laws that discriminate against people based on their sexual orientation and rob them of their human dignity are wrong and sinful; and . . . Whereas, those who turn the gospel of love into a gospel of hate should be considered false prophets . . . .”
Here, Synod clearly affirmed that the historical use of Christian scripture and faith in discriminating againt gay folks or in any way attacking our dignity is sinful and constitutes “false prophecy.”
The second, from the prologue to a resultion adopted by General Synod in 2005, makes clear that theological or biblical reasoning that opposes gay marriage on the basis of its supposedly wrong, sinful or deviant nature, is and has been wrong:
Therefore, theologically and biblically, there is neither justification for denying any couple, regardless of gender, the
blessings of the church nor for denying equal protection under the law in the granting of a civil marriage license, recognized and respected by all civil entities.
In context, the “blessings of the church” clearly includes the issue at hand–i.e. church weddings and other forms of recognition of marriage.
The words are not precisely what you offered up, but the intent is clearly the same: A recognition, at the level of the church’s General Synod, that all attempts, past, present and future, to depict homosexuality as “wrong, sinful and deviant” are in fact themselves sinful and constitute false-prophecy.
Cassandra
Jeff K.
“You really don’t know what you’re talking about.”
Thanks, that’s what homophobes say all the time too – that GLBTQ people don’t know what we’re talking about. It is a cop out, Jeff, instant fail.
Make an effort to prove me wrong, if you can. I doubt it, personally.
“I don’t really want to spend the time explaining to you what atheism means because frankly I don’t think you’ll take the time to correct your misconceptions.”
In other words, you cannot create a convincing counter-argument to what I have presented, and chose to dismiss my points entirely through an ad hominem insult.
“I’ll just give you this link and tell you to read up on implicit and explicit atheism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism”
So you hope that I’ll find something that you did not, that will rebut my premise. From your source: “Atheism is disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of deities, including the position that there are no deities,”
Including the postion that there are no deities. Gee whiz, that sounds familiar: “the assertion that God does not exist.” Now, I won’t dismiss wikipedia out of hand, as some folk do. But since the phrase ‘by definition’ came up . . .
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheism
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no god.
And
“Cultural Dictionary
atheism [(ay-thee-iz-uhm)]
Denial that there is a God. (Compare agnosticism.)
The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. ”
Shall we explore common usage, the way atheists on line assert as fact that God is imaginary, a delusion, etc? You are being dishonest about what atheism is. Personally, I think you didn’t even read your own citation, since it repeatedly affirms my point.
“Experience isn’t the same thing as evidence.”
Oh boy. So much for science then, since experiment and experience have the same root. And all of those court cases when someone gives evidence by testifying to what they saw, heard, experienced.
“Does the word “hallucination” ring a bell? People have active imaginations, and sometimes the things they imagine can seem so real that they actually say they experienced them. Doesn’t make it true.”
This is the inherent prejudice and social brutality of atheism. You’ve just dismissed the experiences of 97% of humanity with a derogatory and abusive assertion about their mental health.
Yet you have no evidence for your dismissal. It simply reflects your negative and pejorative assumption about billions of human beings who experience something you do not.
Does that sound familiar? It should. After all, homophobia is, among other things, a negative and pejorative assumption about people who experience something that homophobes have not experienced – same-sex sexual attractions.
See, I do know what I’m talking about, I’ve been on the receiving end of both anti-gay bigotry, and anti-religious bigotry, and they are identical.
“Two billion Catholics believe the pope is infallible. Does that make it true? What if everyone believed it? What if only one person believed it? The number of people who believe something has no bearing on that belief’s veracity.”
Then nothing has any veracity. Never mind that your statement about Catholic belief regarding the Pope and infallibility is a gross distortion of the matter. The more important point is that you have declared that nothing, at all, no matter how many people agree on it, is true for you.
Remember, all of science is a matter of experience. That is the whole point behind the observer effect in quantum mechanics. And, GLBTQ people keep telling homophobes that our experiences of our lives are the most trustworthy source, we alone know what we experience. Homophobes can quote you and say ‘it doesn’t matter how many homosexuals say it is not a choice’.
But the deep malice in atheism lies precisely what you’ve done, a level of social violence that strikes at the very foundation of human interaction, the basis of human communication and human relationships.
The horrific social violence involved here, though, is that you, like everyone else, do routinely believe all kinds of things simply because enough people testify to it. And more importantly, you believe things because the right people say it. On the matter of religion, you’ve simply decided that 97% of humanity is delusional, embracing a derogatory and negative opinion of them solely because of the one trait they share.
That is prejudice. Atheism is a prejudice, nothing more, nothing less. You’ve actually demonstrated that very well.
Marvin Vann
Mark, I forgot to give you the url’s of the documents containing this language, so you can check them out for yourself (the paragraph beginning “There, theologically and bibically” is a direct quote; I just forgot to include quotation marks:
http://www.ucc.org/assets/pdfs/1993-RESOLUTION-CALLING-ON-THE-CHURCH-FOR-GREATER-LEADERSHIP-TO-END-DISCRIMINATION-AGAINST-GAYS-AND-LESBIANS.pdf
http://www.ucc.org/assets/pdfs/in-support-of-equal-marriage-rights-for-all-with-background.pdf
Cassandra
Mark Cahill
Before the clock strikes midnight on the west coast, just a reminder that you have not provided evidence that the American Atheists have issued a formal statement declaring “Homosexuality is not wrong, sinful or deviant.”
Absent that declaration, applying your premise, one should conclude that american atheists are homophobes.
Certainly, the only group of people who are more adamant in defense of anti-gay theology than homophobic fundamentalist religionists, are atheists on-line.
I would also like to see your formal statement disavowing cannibalism, repudiating the Stasi (the East Germany instantiation of atheist authority), opposing the sale of opiates to kindergarteners, etc. After all, if you do not explicitly and formally reject such things, per your own argument, you must then support them.
Right?
Marvin Vann
@jeffree: Jefree, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. We LGBT folks have been brutalized for two thousand years in the name of Christ. The UCC proposes that this is a gross and sinful distortion of Christ’s witness–is, in fact, antithetical to that witness.
But if, in calling ourselves Christian, we are to avoid being taken as complicit in this legacy of hate, we have to do a better job at clearly speaking out and acting against it. I believe this is the path we have charted. I am pleased to say members of my own church leadership–heterosexual ones, in fact–just this week took part in a street demonstration denouncing homophobic preaching and messages from a local Southern Baptist pulpit.
That might seem arrogant had our General Synod not also gone on record in confessing and turning from the past homophobia of our own church body, something that happened as early as 1983:
http://www.ucc.org/assets/pdfs/1983-RESOLUTION-ON-INSTITUTIONALIZED-HOMOPHOBIA-WITHIN-THE-UNITED-CHURCH-OF-CHRIST.pdf
Paschal
@Cassandra: Grow up, would you? I’m an atheist and I know that it’s wrong to paint all Christians with the same brush. Get off you high horse already. You say that atheism is bigoted yet your comments suggest that you are yourself bigoted towards atheists. Atheists form a diverse group of people. You’re nothog more than a hypocrite.
Paschal
@Mark Cahill: Jesus Christ, what do you want UCC to do? If they lead the New York Pride Parade you’d probably still day, ”I still don’t think that they’re pro-gay”. Being a congregationalist group, each congregation has its own practices, etc. Not all are pro-gay but the organisation as a whole is.
Paschal
@Cassandra: I have respect for the many people of faith who do great work. Using your logic, however, surely all religions are as bigoted as atheism. Christians reject the ”experiences” of Buddhists, Hindus, Shikhs, Shintoists, Jews, Muslims, etc. The same would be true for all other religions. Simply believing something to be true even without evidence, logic, etc. to back you up doesn’t make your beliefs true. I that were the case then all religions are true, which is a logical fallacy. I was raised as a Roman Catholic but some Roman Catholic beliefs are just extremely silly. A virgin giving birth, etc. That’s not to say that Roman Catholics are unintelligent. It simply means that people have demonstrated that they can believe anything. History has taught us that groups of people can believe something which others think is stupid beyond compare. People believed that the Earth wasthe centre of the universe but they were wrong. The BELIEVED something which was wrong. They werem’t stupid, they just didn’t know the truth.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
Cassandra you’re as bad as the people you have just spent paragraphs and paragraphs judging.
You’ve made sweeping generalisations and itching to fight people who are different from you-atheists.
I will pray for you.
Meanwhile, look at some of your brothers and sisters who in the first few posts, actually wrote some sweet and heartfelt posts about the church.
They didn’t reside to your fundementalist and aggresive crusade.
Open your mind. Don’t close it. Life is to complex and large to spend your days on the net judging people.
I’ll leave you with a question.
How many atheists have started wars in the name of atheism?
How many religous people have started wars in the name of religion?
How many atheists preach conversion therapy? How many have been publicly reprimanded for decades for abusing young children in their flock?
How many Cassandra?
We’re all equal, religous or not but sweetheart, I’d look in my back garden firstly before I start acting like my sh*t don’t stink and my way of life is better then yours, so therefore I am superior to you.
Atheists are a minority, like Gays are a minority. There are no powerful atheist like Opus Die or the American Family people. Chill. Sit down.
And smile because everything that is the way that it is in this world is because of Christianity.
Well done.
Mark Cahill
@Cassandra: American Atheists do not teach our children that homosexuality is wrong – religion does that.
@Marvin Vann: I appreciate the links. I’ve seen those references. I know some within UCC are trying to create change. Saying “discrimination is bad” isn’t hard. Welcoming isn’t hard. Even apologizing isn’t hard.
But actually changing the Traditional Christian belief that homosexuality is “wrong,” seems to be too hard for any denomination. Even though it is the easiest way to END the damage done to our community.
Any Christian denomination that formally rejects that teaching has the opportunity to attract many gay Christians – those in other denominations and many that have simply left the church because no denomination had the integrity to end the “wronging” of homosexuality.
Kitty
@Kitty: So why did you all vote my post down? You didn’t like the comic?
DR
@Paschal:
Mark is the kind of guy who got burned at some point in the past and wants to continue his identity as “religious victim”.
When someone actually says that ordaining LGBT ministers, blessing LGBT unions, forming LGBT-affirming churches, doing HIV/AIDS outreach and being willing to storm a schism in the Church due to the fact taking a pro-LGBT isn’t “really LGBT-friendly”, it’s clear to me that he’s being contrary for the sake of contrariness and simply wants to justify his position as a “victim”.
If you look at what’s going on with the MCC, UU, UCC, ELCA and Episcopal Churches and their evolving and pro-LGBT positions, which are causing schisms in the cases of the ELCA and Episcopal Churches, and still maintain the level of cynicism and negativity Mark has because they have not said the words he wants (because they actually LIVE it), there’s little point in discussing it with him.
Folks like him don’t care what we do. He’s so busy demanding an orthodoxy which suits his victimhood he can’t see or grasp the the pro-LGBT orthopraxy going on in the world.