We at Queerty are no strangers to criticism. But now it’s time for us to throw the spotlight on some other publication’s comments. Have you read Paul Aguirre-Livingston’s “Dawn of a New Gay” in the Toronto based publication The Grid? It’s a lengthy article (well, by Queerty’s standards), but well worth the read. Here are a few quotes to get the idea:
“Forty years after… the infamous Stonewall Riots in New York City, a new generation of twentysomething urban gays—my generation—has the freedom to live exactly the way we want… Our sexual orientation is merely secondary to our place in society. We don’t need to categorize or define ourselves as gay, and who we sleep with—mostly men and, hey, sometimes women—isn’t even much of a topic of conversation anymore… Say hello to the post-modern homo. The post-mo, if you will.”
He goes on to describe what he calls the “post-mo”:
“Post-mos don’t hang rainbow flags in their windows or plaster them on their bumpers. We don’t march in Pride and we probably never will. (After-parties only, please.) We don’t torture ourselves to fit in with other gays. In fact, most of us have come to resent the stereotypes and the ideals associated with preceding gay generations. It’s not that we hate gay culture; we just don’t have that much in common with it anymore… And herein lies the central question for the post-mo: Is there even a gay struggle to be had anymore?“
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Further on:
“We hated Toronto Pride for its negative stereotypes and its promotion of marginalization and hyper-sexed fools on floats. I didn’t own anything rainbow-coloured nor did I want to, and I stopped going to those youth meetings because, hey, I’m just a boy who likes other boys, and what else is there to say, okay? Soon, everyone else stopped going too.”
So, anyway, it continues like that with several photos of “post-mo’s” who with the one potential exception are all white and in their early twenties. Despite its obvious sense of entitlement and pitfalls of ignoring the very real cultural and political obstacles we still face, it’s a provocative read.
And then there were the comments. From The Grid, we can pick out comments like:
“I would never step out in front of a community based on diversity and say “Hey everyone! This is the right way to be gay!””
“On behalf of the femmey bois, the butchy girls, the freaky, the weird and the wonderful; shame!”
“What a wonderful article about Hipsters with internalized homophobia.”
After it spread a bit, the editors of The Grid posted an article about why they published Aguirre-Livingston’s article, why the photos were taken, and mentioned the overwhelming response. They say:
“We knew that not everybody would like or agree with what Aguirre-Livingston was saying, but the gay community, like any large group, is not a monolith—it contains multitudes of perspectives and we believed there was room for one more.”
So how about it, Queerty readers? Is “Dawn of a New Gay” a justified thesis? Are the reactions deserved? Is there anyone out there who in fact believes Aguirre-Livingston was perhaps right in writing this article?
We love discussion. Don’t be shy, share your thoughts:
Photo credit via The Grid
sam
Their attitude toward pride and life is remarkably simple and ignorant, and I’m saying that as a 20 year old.
That they can ignore the history of our movement, and the horrible things that still happen, and act like things are all perfectly fine, is laughable. Twits.
There’s a healthy middle ground we can all occupy where we enjoy the benefits we’ve gained and still fight for what needs to be done. This just seems…. frustratingly spiteful.
JWilliamson
Disgustingly hetero… though, I can do without the drag queens & tacky rainbows.
meego
For someone my age who was around way back when, I would say yes and no. Yes because we have made giant leaps and strides in the past 40+ years and I myself do not define my entire being by my sexuality. No because some social factors, economic factors, etc., still persist today. Homophobia is still very much a reality in many cities/areas. But this “post-mo” way of thinking is typical of a city like Toronto–the self-proclaimed “leader” of new ideas and ways of thinking. They actually once made tv commercials proclaiming themselves to be the center of the universe and they were 100% serious about it. That alone should tell you all you need to know about TO. Bottom line, I am more inclined to disagree with this “post-mo” thing. Remember that this was thought out and written by twentysomethings who were not even born when people my age or older were fighting the fights.
Paco
As a 21 Latino gay man in Michigan, I actually do not understand where he is coming from. I do not agree that we have reached a point where we can be as complacent as the author seems to be. A good comment said that the author was reaping the rewards of a generation that fought to be able to have the rights his “post mo” generation has. I agree with the comment. I would love to be able to meet a man, fall in love, and marry him so that one day we could adopt or inseminate in my home state. Instead, my state offers me little protection for my employment, domestic partnership, adoption, while offering me a band aid for hate crimes. Yes we “post mos” can afford to be more complacent, but I’ll be damned if I stop fighting until I can have a wedding so big and flashy they’ll have to make a movie out of it. (I can see the title now, “My Big Fat Flaming Mexican Wedding”) And being “causy” isn’t being “90s gay” its your personality. I will always fight for HIV/AIDS research, demand “gay is ok” sex education, call for education reform of public education, and immigration form. It’s who I am. If I ever met a guy like the author I think I’d laugh and say “oh honey get down from your castle. Your just as much of a bitch as the rest of us”
Right Wingers Are Socioptahs (John From England)
Yes if like you mentioned you fit in with the white,middle class female and male world. From the time you are born y can afford things, your parents shower you with love or at least protection. You may be religious but as the middle class your parents are smart and wealthy enough to know you didn’t choose it but still want you to pray. You may not be that religious and so you’ve never been told to pray the gay away. Fundamentally you and the most important aspect is that you have been brought up with a framework. A sense of structure.
A need for education.
A work ethic.
A need for financial stability.
The social mechanisms to function in every day mainstream society successfully.
Armed with this as a white gay or female-why should you care about some poor black gay kid who is living in the gutter? Or some white trailer trash kid stuck with evangelical parents who tell him he will go to hell? Or a child who has grown up third generation on state handouts growing up in a doomed area with little work prospects?
So yeah, this guy has nothing more to fight for. He is financially service to pay for his partner or/and write up legal contracts to protect each other. He probably got his job via a friend of a friend. He works for his family company! He lives in a country where gays have protection and they don’t think the right will reverse.
He lives in his own bubble. He will never experience your bubble. So gay rights is dead to this man.
Damon
I have to say that pride marches do seem slightly over sexualised. But you can’t get rid of the rainbows and the drag queens!
I also have issue with the implication that the struggle is over. It will take many years before institutionalised homophobia is irradicated and many more before it’s totally removed.
slurp
Sounds like a case of premature ejaculaton.
QJ201
Being post-mo isn’t even an option until we have full civil rights nation wide.
And it is the folks at those “tacky parades” who are working and fighting for those rights.
SteveC
Well this article is clearly not applicable to the US where legal discrimination based on sexual orientation is still enshrined into law.
This article is speaking only about Canada.
RuBrawl
This smacks of white cis privilege.
I live in the deep south, and in my town, gay bashings are on the rise. Trans people are getting fired from their jobs for being trans. Queer youth homelessness is becoming a bigger, not a smaller, problem.
I understand that this isn’t about the US, but I’m glad it’s prompting the conversation about where rights are in the US, and I certainly know many gay Canadians who feel as though there is still work to be done there also.
It’s not just about marriage, it’s about survival. I don’t know many queer people where I live who are worried about marriage, because we’re worried about getting through the day without getting harassed or fired.
Oh, and drag queens? HELL yes. The more the better.
Cam
Oh please, this article could have been written decades ago, every 5 years or so somebody writes exactly the same thing and thinks they’ve discovered the idea.
There have recently been challanges to gay equality in Canada, not serious like in the U.S. but before these guys get too pleased with themselves, I have an idea, go out holding hands with your boyfriends in Wah Wah or Yellowknife or Whitehorse, see the reactions and then tell me about how nobody cares that you’re gay.
Ian Bower
Quote: ‘Is there even a gay struggle to be had anymore?’
Of course there is. Don’t you see what’s happening around the world?
Good grief!
evilqueen
May I direct your attention to this post: http://www.queerty.com/no-one-came-to-the-aid-of-victims-of-portland-or-hate-crime-20110615/ all you who think the struggle is over?
Rick Gold
If you don’t like drag queens or rainbows or Pride celebrations, no one is holding a gun to your head FORCING you to look/buy/attend.
Don
@JWilliamson: Nice transphobia you got going there mate.
dsdg1971
So I have two thoughts about this article. First, it’s kind of neat that there are people who have lived the kind of lives where they believe the struggle is over. I mean, isn’t it great that at least some LGBT people have experienced a life where they don’t get stung by homophobia and have never experienced some of the harsher realities that some of the commenters no doubt have? It may be naive to ignore some of the awful things that still happen to LGBT people on a daily basis, but I’m glad there is a group of LGBT who are so free from that kind of homophobia that they could believe the ideas in that article.
Second, I agree with many of the commenters that the struggle has only just begun. There are, in fact, lots of different ways people still hate LGBT people. There are folks who just kind of find us repugnant. There are people who believe we are going to Hell. And there are folks who would like to help us get there as quickly as possible. These people still exist all over the world. I hope that these young men can use their power, privilege, and their “postmo” vision of world to maybe change the minds of some of those people or help some of the people in trouble in Canada and the rest of world.
Drake
The post-Mo’s sound like GOProud. “We want all the rights that others are fighting for, but Puh-LEEZE, don’t expect me to contribute in any way at all.”
DOMA is still the law of the US, DO’t ask, don’t tell is still not implemented, the religious fundamentalists are all around us preaching hatred, marriage is barely available in the US, and yes, t here is plenty of job discrimination all over the place – it’s just behind your back.
The writer of the article must spend his life in shopping malls, never venturing into the real world, and sees life as just perfect. Wait till he gets gay-bashed when he is visiting Florida or eve in Canada. maybe he will wake up.
Drake
@dsdg1971:
No, it’s not kinda “neat” at all that some members of our community live with their heads up their asses. His attitude is simply “I’ve got mine, forget about everybody else.” He’s not post anything, it’s timeless assholeism.
BenFrankly
What the post mo’s forget is that the pendulum could easily swing back to the days before stonewall. And the same forces that hurt so many gays in the past are still out there doing their best. They are rabid organizations out there hell bent on stopping gay marriage, stopping the repeal of DADT, upholding Prop8 in California, and if the Republicans get the White house all the current crop of candidates have clearly stated their intentions to stop gay right whenever possible.
SO many people like Larry Kramer fought their whole lives to have a tiny modicum of freedon and that fight has to continue or we could go back to the days of being thrown in prison for being gay. The post Mos don’t think it can happen but they are wrong.
Ok. I don’t like the flamboyant over the top gay pride floats and men dressed as Nuns either. I am repulsed by it. But I can’t become what we’re fought so hard against, pejudiced and bigoted behavior against gays is certainly a no no – we have to educate the gay mummers among us on why its in our best interest to tone it down a bit.
But the gay struggle is far from over and never will be over until we attain true equality. Just like Black Americans did, and women did. THere are still people who thinks its okay to kill us, beat us, and leave us to die like they did to Mathew Shepard.
Joe
Sounds like someone’s too cool for school.
SteveC
While religion remains a force in society, then each and every one of the rights we have struggled so hard to achieve can be removed.
The US is a religious country. Religious belief usually implies bigotry and hate.
The fight is not over.
Mr. Enemabag Jones
Do these imbeciles keep up with current politics at all? I’m embarressed that these oafs are Canadian. When the rulling Conservative Part of Canada introduces a private members bill to change equal marriage laws in Canada, what will these stupid children have to say?
Fagburn
@Cam: “Oh please, this article could have been written decades ago, every 5 years or so somebody writes exactly the same thing and thinks they’ve discovered the idea…”
So true. And it’s always the same kind of silly stuck-up middle class queens looking down on the rest of us…
scott ny'er
@Drake: Yep.
It’s very provincial. Self-centered. But not unexpected. As long as these Post-Mos are doing well, I feel sooooo much better. I’m glad I don’t know these creeps.
Postmo
As someone who is more postmo than he would like to admit, it’s sites like queerty that make me want to dissociate with the gay movement. I do volunteer with gay advocacy groups and know that not every gay person is as jaded as queerty portrays. But constantly lambasting anyone and, in this case, a generation isn’t going to help the cause. Why doesn’t queerty reach out in a more productvie manner? This article does nothing.
I shouldn’t come to this site anymore…
Didjaknow
@Don: Drag queens aren’t transgendered persons necessarily. They aren’t often one-in-the-same. Being a drag queen is like performance art. I’ve grown weary of everyone slapping ‘transphobia’ around. I find drag queens tasteless too. As I find ballroom dancers or redneck weddings. It has nothing to do with some phobia, though I’m sure that makes you feel better to think so. Mate.
Didjaknow
They’re spoilt children in their early 20s, fresh from some idealized collegiate womb. Life will soon enough bitch slap them upside their heads. Let us not get too worked up.
iDavid
Im 56 and I relate to the post mos only because there was no PUBLIC struggle when I was growing up of which they have seemed to separate themselves from. Doesnt mean they dont vote, and most people dont do rainbows and drag at gay pride. Ive always thiught gay pride was the worst advertisement for gays to get gay rights, embarrasingly so. We had our great gay bars and fit in a pretty beige world. After Stonewall it was decades before gay marriage hit the scene and things were awesome. When we hit gay marriage, THAT’S when EVERYTHING changed. It brought out the religious fanatics and all hell broke loose. I started to get depressed and rageful, so i certainly didn’t get to skip over the tragedys. My gen was still in the closet with one foot out, enough to not get noticed and enough to have a great time. But there is no turning back the clock, there is still work to do but I don’t hear the post mos saying they aren’t working to help. Im hearing them say they have taken off the feather boas and the fake tieras and seemingly are blending into all of society. Great. But not lend a hand for freedom, they don’t say that anywhere. Im sure they are supporting in ways not mentioned, they just don’t feel they need to go raging through the streets stark naked at a gay pride parade to do their lives as a gay person. I get it, neither did I, its a no brained.
chris
This article is exactly the problem that is facing not only gays, but every minority, or underrepresented group. Why is everyone picking sides? Post-mo, pre-mo or inter-mo, what does it matter? In every group there are going to be different views and I believe in allowing all those views to shine. This just means progress. The more diverse we become as a group the more we can relate to the rest of the world and them to us. So let the glitter rain down, let the freak flags fly, let the post-mos cringe, and let every person make their own decision how to represent themselves. Just remember that when it comes down to it, we’re all in this together, as people on the same giant rock.
jason
I believe that the gay men’s movement must become part of a greater male liberation movement. A lot of us forget that women contribute significantly to the oppression of male-male sexuality through their exploitation of gender-based double standards – for example, note how women can wear clothing associated with either gender (trousers or dresses) in public and, yet, if a man were to wear a dress in public, he’d be hissed at.
You also see this tendency of females to exploit double standards in the different standards that are applied to entry rules at mainstream nightclubs. Women can pretty much get in looking like sluts but a man is often required to wear a shirt and trousers that cover up his entire body.
By incorporating our male-male sexuality into the greater cause of male liberation, we can push back against the oppressive females.
iDavid
Chris,
Dead on brother.
stop talking about this
this article is ridiculous, however it is a certain group of people’s opinion. i am not siding with the article one way or another but it does stand to reason that the people who share this opinion are speaking out about the way they are treated by some in the gay community because they try to defy what the norm is. it does happen in every minority. does this make them any less gay, no, they are simply identifying a different way. i live in toronto and although i don’t share the feeling of these so-called ‘po-mo’s’ i do feel bad for people that share their opinions because they now feel as though they are being criticized for the way they live their life, which is playing straight into the author of this article’s hand. the critics of this article are trying to argue that the gay community is built upon openness however how open are we being toward people who live as gays in a different way.
personally my criticism about this article is about the writing. it reads like it were written by someone in eleventh grade and now the author is getting international attention for poor writing because we are so insecure about the way we live our own lives. this is my first time commenting on the article even though their has been so much debate about it because i didn’t want to give the article more attention then it’s worth.
Brian Miller
It’s an article written in 2011 Toronto. Marriage equality has been the law for years, and gay people are treated equally under the law in every way — of COURSE the average 20-something homo who has been legally equal since the day he was a legal adult would think that “the struggle is over.”
He’d be disabused of that notion the moment he leaves the Dominion of Canada for, say, the USA (just writing that his husband was a family member on the immigration card could get him detained or even deported under DOMA), but for those lucky few who have more-or-less equal rights under the law in their enclave (and don’t travel often, if at all), I can understand where they might be coming from.
tazz602
WTF – this person lives in a bubble – a city that is very open and accepting of who they are. Sure in Toronto, New York City, San Francisco, West Hollywood and a few other major cities it’s EASY to be who you are, love who you want. BUT – those are still the exception, this person needs to travel to small conservative towns which make up most of the US and I’m sure in Canada too – get out of your bubble and see what the rest of the world deals with and THEN see if you can make those statements.
Spike
Typical 20something nonsense, gay or str8t, anything that comes out of the mouths of 20somethings reflects the life experience of acorn and while we don’t want to laugh in their faces, everyone 30+ is laughing behind their backs. 20something gays should be seen and not heard, it’s all part of the process.
Zach Stowers
Those “post-mo’s” should read this to get a little perspective on why it’s still important to celebrate pride: http://thetruthpursuit.com/society/society-blogs/lgbt-history-decade-lobotomies-castration-and-institutions
Look at how far we’ve come and then look at the suicides that still take place every day and then tell me we are in a nirvana of gay acceptance. I don’t think so. The struggle goes on and will continue for quite some time so long as there are people who think we ought to be killed or maimed for being who we are.
Pride is a liberating celebration.
Those that get naked or don their drag are, in my view, courageous. They open themselves up to ridicule and judgement (clearly) and I respect them for it. And I certainly don’t think any one of them is telling me or anyone else that their way is “the right way to be gay.” They are simply expressing themselves and freeing themselves from the constraints of their daily lives.
I was recently married in the New York Dance Parade and it was the most incredible experience of my life. (read about it here:http://bit.ly/meIHct) I was on a hot pink float with my new husband, our families and friends and our officiator, Doris Dear, who is a good friend who does fabulous 60s drag.
But, we were not on that float (in a parade celebrating many different cultures and styles of dance) saying that this is the way gays should marry. We were simply doing what we wanted to do for our wedding. Having as much fun as we could on our wedding day. It was liberating and it was heartwarming to see and feel the crowd’s reaction as we passed by.
These “post-mo” kids may already feel liberated and they may feel free to express themselves however they want, whenever and wherever they want. But, they are beneficiaries of a struggle that will carry on long after we all have equal rights (thanks to fear-based religions).
They are silly for thinking otherwise, but they are certainly free to think the way they want. They’ll grown up one day and understand that it’s important to let people live their lives the way they want, without passing judgement on those choices. They will come to understand that we are all at different places on the self-actualization scale and we ought to celebrate those who are courageous enough to expose their spirits in such public ways and we ought to dispense with judging them.
Pride is a celebration of love and life that was the direct result of the unbelievable violence and oppression perpetrated against our forefathers and foremothers, who had the courage, in a society that hated and feared them, to stand up and say “enough… we aren’t going to take this shit anymore!!” They marched up 6th Avenue to Central Park that Summer of ’70 and forever changed our lives for the better!
I think that’s worth celebrating, in whatever fashion one chooses, from now until the day we die, those courageous souls!
vangelis
I’m almost 25 now, and a man has never asked me out without a screen between us, let alone in a cute little café. It’s not that I’m unattractive, or socially dysfunctional.”
Oh yes you are.
“It’s because right when W&G was defining the way life could be for us post-mos, the internet came along and messed everything up.”
Will and Grace “defined his life”? The internet “messed things up”? I mean really, are we supposed to have an intelligent discussion about anything he writes based on these premises? It seems to me he really needs to sort himself out first.
It’s not that he is post-anything. By his own admission he hasn’t met anyone outside the internet, or held anybody’s hand in three years. His geeky looks probably don’t fit in very well in the various homo sub-groups segregated according to looks and age (muscle clones, trendy twinks or the tattooed porn-star-looking wolves that you seem to find so attractive – talking about a big gay cliche if there ever was one) He is probably not very sexually attracted to to his own kind either, i.e. the Butt magazine slovenly hipster look.
By his own admission even in a liberal haven like Toronto he can’t meet anyone outside the internet or the scene that he takes for granted (he would never if he came from a small place). Gee, why does he think that is? I’m telling you, it’s not the fault of some carnivalesque Pride float or gay marriage. This is what it means to belong to a minority even if he finds that admission to be personally stifling. Even in a city where the heteros pride themselves on their “tolerance”.
I personally think that most of the commentary thread is way to off the mark as well. This is not some white middle-class kid taking his privilege for granted. This is about a frustrated young man who vents against other gays because he doesn’t feel that welcome or wanted. This is partly the fault of his own personality and partly a legitimate grievance against the shallow homogenisation of the commercial “scene”.
Joel Wang
From the same writer, Paul Aguirre-Livingston, less than a year ago:
“There was a time when I didn’t believe in the idea of “pride” or, more appropriately, I didn’t really care to identify with it. Don’t get me wrong; I wasn’t ashamed, I just never felt I had to. I wore what I wanted, went where I wanted and did whatever (with whomever) I wanted. There was no rush to be around like-minded folk because I never felt different. But at the same time, I wore rainbow-coloured dog tags around my neck (as was the style among us tweens) to show some sort of solidarity with a community I hadn’t even bothered to take an interest in. I was a confused contradiction. It wasn’t until years later when an ex-boyfriend decided to tell his family that he was gay that I realized I had been making more of a fashion statement than a political one, and I began to understand and construct the importance of pride – or rather, having pride. I didn’t need to officially “come out,” so I was never faced with threats of being disowned or worries of falling out with friends. With no one to turn to, it was other gay friends (and a whole community, really) that supported the newly liberated like him and the utterly clueless like me.
And although the ex is long gone, the idea of pride and its significance to my life not only as person, but also as a homosexual, has always lingered. Would I be any less proud if I weren’t gay?
In the end, I was finally able to realize that pride isn’t about sexuality at all. Once you take away the labels, the clothes, the boyfriend – even the parade – all you’re left with is what you know you can count on, regardless of sexuality, geography, creed or colour: pride in yourself. It might not be measured in weeks, floats or dog tags for all gays, but we’ve all got pride in common (even the most self-described ‘straight-acting’ fag can’t deny!) when we can be who we are because we will it so, despite your MO.
On that note, I’d like to give a big shout out to all those who came before me these past 30 years. Your decades of true solidarity have let boys like me grow up to form and subscribe to alternative definitions of pride. And if it just so happens that you’re also gay, well then that’s fabulous too.”
– Paul Aguirre-Livingston
Link: http://www.photojunkie.ca/archive/2010/06/pride-30-paul-aguirre-livingston/
Clearly some people are more prone to be complacent, and need to to preach that gospel to others…it’s poisonous.
vangelis
*the tattooed porn-star-looking wolves that he seems to find so attractive
Elloreigh
So let’s compare lives, shall we?
The writer is a self-described “twenty-something urban gay”. I’m a nearing-fifty small-city guy who grew up in rural Michigan.
The writer has a degree. I have three years of college, no degree and no interest in completing one at this time. And I can’t abide intellectual snobbery (well, snobbery of any kind, really).
The writer has a home and a career. Good for him. I have a shared mortgage, living in suburbia, and a job. If I’d never met my partner, I’d probably still be an apartment dweller.
The writer has abandoned the ‘gayborhood’. I’ve never visited one, much less lived in one. As far as I know, we’re the only gay people in our neighborhood.
The writer describes himself as tattooed and pierced, with an air of “that makes me better than you”. I am neither. Different strokes for different folks.
The writer vacations with his boyfriend at his parents home, who don’t mind them staying there as a couple. I didn’t give my parents any choice in the matter – it’s a three hour drive from my place to theirs. If they wanted to have a relationship with me, they were going to have to deal.
The writer can legally marry his boyfriend. I don’t expect I’ll be able to in my home state in my lifetime, and I don’t see the point of getting married somewhere else.
The writer considers his orientation “secondary”. I consider it just one part of who I am, but an important part nonetheless.
Like the writer, I don’t have a rainbow flag hanging from my window or rainbow bumper stickers. In point of fact, I don’t have any bumper stickers. I do have a rainbow spinner lawn ornament in the back yard (faded, needs to be replaced). I don’t see the need to have ‘GAY!’ tattooed on my forehead, but I’m not going to hide for anyone else’ comfort. People will figure it out, or if I feel it warranted, I’ll inform them.
Resenting the stereotypes of the past? I resent stereotyping, gay or otherwise, period. Not because I dislike people who exhibit stereotypical characteristics. What I dislike is the way they’re used against me by bigots.
As for ‘gay culture’, I never did identify with most of what passes for that. What some celebrate as ‘gay culture’, I view as little more than celebrating our marginalization. (Or as the author of the article writes in describing Pride, the “promotion of marginalization”. Finally, something we have in common.) And I’m not interested in the perpetuation of my anger at being rejected by society. It takes too much energy, and I can’t sustain the constant rage without it being damaging to both my mental and physical health.
I therefore have no more interest in conforming to gay stereotypes and culture than I do in hetero-normative BS. I’m my own person. If I like something and incorporate it into my life, it’s because I like it, not because I’m supposed to. I’ve never been into ‘cruising’, and I like being in a long-term, monogamous relationship. Not because I have a desire to imitate the roles of some idealized heterosexual union, but because I’ve found something that works for me. If ‘cruising’ is what works for you, then pursue your joy. I’m no less gay for going in a different direction. For example, being in what is essentially a marital relationship doesn’t mean I have any desire to raise kids, and no – I don’t want to babysit for couples that do.
“Is there even a gay struggle to be had anymore?” That’s what I have the biggest problem with in the article. The answer is a resounding “YES!”, and I’m more than happy to raise the middle finger right back at the crowd who have the attitude of “screw you, I’ve got mine”.
“The fact is, we have everything our predecessors always wanted, so why has the community never seemed more at odds with itself?” Answer: Probably because “we” don’t all have it; only some of us do, and to varying degrees.
Nevermind the irony of putting down the old “scene” while describing what is really an ever-evolving “scene” and not realizing it. Someday what’s new will be old, and the people who come after you will want something different, too.
Ugh, “straight acting”. WTF? I still cannot fathom why any self-respecting gay person would want to adopt such a label. Moreover, I don’t get the obsession with whether or not one is masculine or feminine enough. The fact that I’m not constantly drawing attention to my ‘gayness’ does not mean I consider myself “straight acting”. I’m not interested in ‘passing for straight’ and I’m not interested in standing out from the crowd. I just want to be me. Period.
A tip for the writer: Your tribe is not superior to anyone else’ just because you’re a member.
Now, no doubt someone will read what I’ve written and leap to the wrong conclusions. No, I’m not a republican, not even particularly conservative for that matter. No, I’m not a democrat, either. I’m an independent who holds my nose and votes for the person who I think will do the least damage.
No, I’m not anti-drag, etc. Yes, I think the history of our movement is important. No, that doesn’t mean I owe you something just because you marched in Pride this month, or because you consider yourself a non-conformist. The fact that I didn’t doesn’t mean I’m doing nothing or that I’ve never done anything for the movement. You do your thing, and I’ll do mine.
iDavid
Spike,
Not only do i disagree, i see more unnecessary discrimination. Doesn’t sound much different than “all queers are sick fuks”. Aren’t you being a bit “blanket” with that statement?
Hue-Man
The writer was either home-schooled or an amnesiac. Even post-mos would have endured the litany of name-calling and bullying at any school – homophobia is easily imported from fellow students’ homes. A recent protest from Canada against a program to reduce school homophobia: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Burnaby+group+present+petition+against+homophobia+policy/4938794/story.html
The school board passed the policy but only after modifying it to appease the homophobic parents. Someone should send these post-mos some reading material on Gay Berlin in the 1930s – complacency is not a gay virtue.
Abel
@Right Wingers Are Socioptahs (John From England): Bravo. You said it best. Maybe if we’re lucky, his bubble will burst and he’ll learn about real life.
Rbayse
My generation fought to be “normalized” and accepted. So we weren’t fired form our jobs, put in jail for holding hands, told we couldn’t swim in community pools, etc. Inevitably we wanted our sexual identities to not be an issue. This idea of “post-mo” is ether the growing pains for our efforts, or it is the pendulum swinging the other way. There is still a political fever out there that wants to put us all back in the closet. By not waving our rainbow flags it could be that they are getting more of what they want. Youth on ether side seem to evolve the same way, they all seem to go through a phase where they think they need no one especially anyone older and more experienced than them. It’s call “The Superman Syndrome”. It is all good to strike out and claim independence and express yourself as an individual, but take heed, if that begins with a back lash to the older people that began to pain a world where you could be free, your rights just might be stripped from you. Vigilance is necessary.
OklahomaBreakdown
While the over sexualization of gay culture is a problem, it’s not the most pressing one. I fail to see how anyone could think Post-mo is upon us. I would hazard a guess the people who believe this way do not watch politics, especially this season’s Republicans. I would challenge any of these people to come to states and cities outside of Chelsea or LA and make this claim.
peter k
@11 yeah – some does seem to write something like this ever 5 years.
TomMc
@Brian Miller: He’d “be disabused of that notion” if he simply left Toronto.
Wonder what those kids will think four years from now, after Prime Minister Harper and his crew have rolled back some of the rights that they now taken for granted?
Aaron
We sometimes forget as 30+ GLBT people that we have to give room for 20-somethings to form their opinions about the world. In a society like America where you’re pushed to be successful before you’re 23, it makes sense that kids have lost sight of the fact that wisdom comes (hopefully) with age and that the experiences and the history of the men, women and transgendered individuals have GIVEN them the freedom to form these opinions. In college, I was the Vice President of our GLBT group and one of the other leaders was a transexual. I was SO nervous around her, and often criticized what I thought were extreme behaviours because I thought it made us look bad.
I realized, though, that these weren’t her issues they were MY issues and in order for me to really walk out my message I had to sort out those issues within myself. I couldn’t demand that society accept me if I couldn’t accept her. I had to stop thinking that the actions of another homosexual, or bisexual or transgendered individual somehow translated to something I was doing or feeling. Everyone is on a sexual journey and everyone’s journey is very different. If I take offense because someone is being “too gay” or has rainbow flags or DOESN’T have rainbow flags or is hyper-masculine or anything like that, the offense isn’t THEIR fault, it’s an issue I have with myself. Once I become more self-aware, which is really what we all need to continue to do, then I can figure out that I’m me in my own expression of life, and the person next to me is them in THEIR expression of life and we can co-exist. When I got over myself, the transexual became one of my best friends in life.
This guy lives in Canada, in some part that he feels very comfortable being gay in. He is young and he can’t see the real world and he hasn’t really lived long enough to cultivate wisdom on how to exist among that MYRIAD of human beings that live on this planet. Hopefully one day he will experience something that will broaden his view of the very limited world he lives in right now. He’s only 20-something, he has heaps of time to see what’s really going on out there, and that gives us heaps of time to continue fighting and make it better for him and the upcoming generation.
He’s not insignificant or an asshole. He’s just young and naive about the rest of the world. We were all there at one point. It’s just now we can kind of laugh about it and shake our heads. The poor dear.
Drake
What do the “post-‘mos” say about all the gay teen suicide and gay bashing of all ages?
Jay Brennan
As a middle aged homo who grew up watching the struggle unfold, even vaguely remembers the Stonewall riots, I’ve come to love and respect the drag queens, gender fuckers, leathermen and all those in our community who live out there on the edge. While you may not like the image they present, they kept putting it out there for the world to see so that slowly we all became less & less outrageous. It also made those of us with a 9 to 5 office job and a little house in the suburbs seem more like Mr. & Mrs. Middle America, making us that more easy to accept as just one of the neighbors. We do our community a huge disservice to forget and even denigrate the role they played in gaining some degree of acceptance for us as whole. They were the ones most likely to be spat upon, called names, bashed, ridiculed, marginalized and excluded by “normal” society. I for one treasure them and everyone who puts it out there for Pride, because they were the catalysts for change.
Are human beings inherently sociopathic? (John from England)
@dsdg1971:
I agree with your first comment but so what? I was born middle class. Went to private schools. Got a degree education. Doing a masters. Lived in the most middle class town in England but oh my, by the time I left to uni I knew all about the plight in the Middle East, Racism in the US-actually my english syllable was based on Maya Angelou’s work-plus SO many other fights.
Not right.
Elloreigh
@Jay Brennan: I am so sick of this myth that we all owe some huge debt to non-conformists everywhere for making the rest of look less outrageous. Anyone who believes that has clearly not spent any significant amount of time engaging people who don’t have knowledge of or experience with our community’s diversity. Because if you had, you’d know that very often the first thing those people bring up is Pride and its parade of freaks committing public sex acts. <- Their perception of it, thanks to media sensationalism and anti-gay propaganda, not because they've every actually witnessed it firsthand.
They don't look at those images and think about how comparatively 'normal' (i.e. conforming) the rest of us are. They don't process the fact that Pride isn't how many gay people live their everyday lives. It doesn't matter that we aren't standing in front of them in the here & now covered in glitter, draped with feather boas, wearing a tiara, elegant gown and heels, or maybe assless chaps. It's a question of what they picture when they hear the word 'gay', and when their mind doesn't go directly to a couple of sweaty, hairy guys having anal sex, it's going to almost certainly be some extreme image from Pride.
Yes, it's a complete disconnect from reality they have going on. I'm not saying it's logical or sensible. And I'm not intending to trash Pride or the people who celebrate it by dressing up in outfits that would outdo Mardi Gras.
Not at all. My focus here is exclusively on the idea that I owe a debt to someone else's non-conforming. To the non-conformists who fought back at Stonewall? Without a doubt. To a drag-queen celebrating Pride today? Not so much. This isn't 1969.
Nor is this a call for people to conform or "tone it down". People who want to hate us will always find an excuse, no matter how much we conform.
I am very simply disputing the idea that 1) Drag queens make me look 'normal', and 2) that I owe them.
Because I don't.
olterigo
@Cam: Something tells me I read articles like this in early 00’s, when I came out. I even probably shared some of these views.
Moe
My favorite, dead-on quote in response to the article: ““What a wonderful article about Hipsters with internalized homophobia.”
JWilliamson
@Don: Yeah… cos drag acts has everything to do with gender dysphoria. I fully embrace my Trans friends, they’re not pretending – drag acts are, drag has nothing to do with gender (or sexuality).
I don’t embrace those few men who feel its “entertainment” to dress up for the night, get on stage & murder both stand-up & singing at the same time.
Adman
Queerty, I see what you did here. He’s a mediocrity from a country that protects him; we’re trying to get what he has, here in the US, and could probably use a small diversion. A chance to slobber in the window at the goods we can’t buy since we’re broke. You really think you’re smart, that’s what’s so funny about Queerty. Unintended base sensibilities in a snarky “hipster” is funny, especially the way you rock it, Queerty. Twenty something and Black is the new square, IMO. These reactionary bores have the reference points of Mr. McGoo, and they love it, so what? I was twenty three once too, it wasn’t revelatory or even revolutionary, imagine that.
Chuck
These people are really living with blinders. They are lucky enough to live in one of the few cities and countries on the planet where it is okay to be gay. It reminds me of conservatives’ philosophy: I got mine so screw you. It also reminds me of rich, fat American tourists in the 1950s. Totally oblivious to the fact that they are the exception, not the norm. It wasn’t even that long ago that a gay bathhouse was raided in Toronto in the early 1980s. Great victories were won since then, but not through apathy. On the contrary, the victories for gay rights in Toronto and in Canada were hard fought. If young gays today do not realized this, then they are doomed to be vulnerable to hate groups quickly reversing laws and attitudes to where they were less than a generation ago.
On top of this, young Toronto gays should understand that not everywhere in Canada do gays enjoy such acceptance. Many rural areas, indeed, the majority of land in Canada is still filled with homophobia. Hell, just look at the new gains of the Conservative party during the last election.
Further, these people need to open their eyes to the real struggles going on in the United States where gay people are still very much second class citizens and homophobia is rampant, just look at the recent Republican presidential debate: 100% of the candidates are hugely anti-gay.
Finally, anyone in a first world nation should know how bad things are in developing world nations where ‘kill the gays’ bills are serious issues. If these people could see beyond their own belly buttons, they would know that this is no time to end fighting for gay rights. If anything, those in a rare good place like modern Toronto have a responsibility to use their unique position in the gay rights universe to help the 99% of the rest of gay people who are in the midst of anything from grudging acceptance to outright genocide.
Jeffree
Like any “post~” movement, these “post-Mo”s know more about what they’re against than what they’re for.
It’s an ahistorical vaccum that forgets about the people who came before us, and neglects those who will come after.
They’re blind to their own privileges and to the suffering of people who don’t have those same things working for them: ethnicity / race / gender / nationality / class / education ….
(and access to internet & decent shaving products)
caffesilvia
I don’t have any gripe with the “post-mos,” except to point out that the luxury to feel that kind of freedom only exists in a few places. Throughout most of the world, sexual orientation is still a big deal and is the cause of much abuse and discrimination.
However, if you’re lucky enough to live somewhere where being gay isn’t a big deal, enjoy it. That’s the end goal of all of this progress-seeking, after all: a society in which one’s sexual orientation just isn’t important one way or another.
jeff4justice
This commentary goes to show how out of touch big city LGBT folk are with the disparity between what they have access to and what many rural/suburb/small town have access to.
Here are some more observations of this commentary:
-Too bad all the recent gay teens who killed themselves did not know that we live in the “Post-Mo” generation.
-I hope the author means the big city gay areas like he lives and not the rest of the world – the real world – where many rural/suburb/small town gays have it awful.
-I invite the author of this commentary, with his abundance of disposable income, to come to Yuba-Sutter, 45 mins north of Sacramento, and see how long he’d last there. One can write anywhere right?
-I was 17 when Will & Grace was on TV and watching a successful big city gay was totally un-relatable as a small town gay kid in an area with no LGBT visibility whatsoever. It’s still a very un-relatable show.
-The comment “most of us have come to resent the stereotypes and the ideals associated with preceding gay generations. It’s not that we hate gay culture” is a total contradiction.
-It’s also interesting to see the contradiction of the comment “talk like a lame, effeminate caricature of homosexuality.” by David (pictured in the commentary) yet the writer mainly cites woman as empowerment examples.
-Gay men in many rural/suburb/small towns are still sexing in parks while being in the closet.
-“I’ve still managed to forget the condom once or twice without freaking out” We all make mistakes but what’s with the nonchalant attitude about it? Would it have took becoming HIV+ to freak you out. Way to go for being lucky.
-Many rural/suburb/small town gays don’t have the income level you do and that means that don’t have a smart phone with Gridr.
Find me online. Google: jeff4justice
meego
@jeff4justice: 100% agree with you.
meego
@Postmo: Then don’t! We won’t miss you!
jeff4justice
@meego: Thanks ; )
Zeus
That article is so full of itself a pointless. Most people are agreeing that it is stupid.
Fagburn
Great to see people can see right through their dumb reflections of bourgeois hegemony.
Creeps!
Dr. Dick
Gawd, and I thought WE were deluded here in SF… Im sure he was talking about TO, but puh-lease!
If there’s a Queer Struggle to be had anywhere, then there’ a fekking struggle everywhere! Sheesh, not everyone in their early twenties has the luxury of being a moron.
Phil
seriously. know your history. I am 20 and still unable to come out to much of my family, and have gay friends that can do the same. but, I love being who I am, and as such I have researched the history of the LGBT movement. it appalls me that so many of my fellow gays my age haven’t. No, we won’t stop being called gay. That’s who we are. It’s as solidified as black and white. No, we won’t get rid of the tacky rainbow flags. That is a symbol of your pride. Where every color means something. The flag was born during the struggle that Harvey Milk overcame when he was elected into office. There is so much about being gay that is great. No I don’t wear my heart on my sleeve 24/7 and have glitter shooting out of my ass, but I am aware of who I am, and am proud of myself and everyone else in this LGBT community. And goddamn you should be, too.
Thrutch
As previously mentioned above, yeah, post-mos exist. They live in a nice sheltered world of normally large urban centres, they have supportive friends and family. The rights they think are important, are things they already have. They don’t understand the struggle, they don’t get the oppression and they think everyone else should get over it. They feel safe, any homophobia they experience is passing. Shrugged off as a single nut job.
The sad thing is these are the people most at risk when they are confronted with it. They are ones who go to rural area and get into trouble, who experience depression when that support is removed or not seen as strong. They are forced to confront the privilege they have and they either flee or they become some of our strongest advocates. For every post-mo gay out there, go live for two years in area with only one or two gay bars. You start to cling to your community because it is all you have.
Phil
@Thrutch: well said. thank you.
chrissie riot
@RuBrawl: This smacks of white cis privilege
Thank you so very very much for calling that out. The only possible reply to anyone who is post-mo is “check your privilege.”
@jason: for example, note how women can wear clothing associated with either gender (trousers or dresses) in public and, yet, if a man were to wear a dress in public, he’d be hissed at.
I’m pretty sure that you’re a troll because your comment is so absolutely ridiculous that I can’t even really wrap my head around it, but I understand that some people might actually be this ignorant. So please, check your privilege. The fact of the matter is that white cisgendered straight male is the norm. Anything that is contrary or uncomfortable for the white cisgendered straight male gaze is considered offensive. This includes gay women who are considered unattractive (butch on butch for example), straight women who aren’t feminine, gay men in general, people of color, people with disabilities, women of size, the list goes on and on my friend. Please do not blame the oppressed for their oppression. Women are not the reason that gay men are oppressed, we’ve got the exact same foot on the back of our necks that you do. It’s irresponsible to believe otherwise.
@caffesilvia: However, if you’re lucky enough to live somewhere where being gay isn’t a big deal, enjoy it. That’s the end goal of all of this progress-seeking, after all: a society in which one’s sexual orientation just isn’t important one way or another.
Absolutely, however this doesn’t give them a pass on accepting or even acknowledging that there is still a struggle to be had. Privilege doesn’t excuse ignorance. If anything they should be more gracious that they are able to live the way that they do instead of ignoring that there is still so much more work to be done.
@Thrutch: For every post-mo gay out there, go live for two years in area with only one or two gay bars.
Right? Or somewhere where there isn’t a gay bar for 75 miles.
seaguy
The fat bear cubs quoted and snooty bitch who wrote the article all need to realize that as soon as they leave their perfect gay world of Toronto and fly to say Uganda things ain’t all champagne wishes and caviar dreams! A lot of heels where broken and feathers have flown over the years as those of us who do march in the pride parades have fought for our rights and paved the way for them. Pride in a way is like the gay veterans day we honor those who fought for our cause.
The queen who wrote that article obviously forgot who paved the way and thinks her you know what don’t stink cause she has a husband and such a perfect life. Gag me!
I am a Post-Mo
Like some others here, I am of the Stonewall era. Those were the harsh days when we hid in tea rooms..yuk!. Today, I live with my partner in a straight neighbrohood with 2.3 grandkids around the corner. HIV is what threw our kind out of the closet, not all the feather boas and ass-less chaps parading down Market street in SF.
My forever thanks to all our dead brothers who went before us.
meego
@I am a Post-Mo: Anita Bryant also prompted many of us to come out and realize our power.
Joel Wang
@JWilliamson: Regarding you comment “drag acts has everything to do with gender dysphoria”; please take a look at this video in which members of the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence very eloquently explain what their brand of “drag” is all about…
Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kv2PoetiQw
Happy PRIDE!
Peter
I wish I could write an articulate thought about my feelings on the matter. That Paul has the right to state his opinion in a public forum, no matter how unaware or two-dimensional. But I can’t, so whatevs. A.L. is a silly bitch and indicative of the problem with ignorant hedonists, but all we can do is keep ourselves educated and try to educate those around us.
Jusitn
When our youth stop committing suicide because of bullying, when transsexuals stop being raped or fired, when I can legally marry my husband anywhere in this country, when gay bashings end, and when gay establishments cease to be unjustly harassed by authorities I will reconsider my position on the post-mo era.
Until then I will stand by my community and define myself, at least in part, by my association with the beautiful queers around the world.
Shannon1981
Wishful thinking, post ‘mos. Last I checked, kids are still bullied, you can still be fired in 31 states for being gay, NOM, FOTF, AFA, Exodus International, etc are still going strong, and we still have very real Presidential Candidates who wish to compare our marriages to incest and bestiality- and do- and believe what they are saying.
Furthermore, kids are still killing themselves, and hate crimes are abound, and there are still states who do not protect us from hate- I live in one of them.
We are still second class citizens, in other words. Don’t be complacent and deluded. Continue to fight.
Chris
Is this a sketch from The Kids In The Hall? Sometimes Canadian humor is lost on me.
SpireaX
So a bunch of college grads got together, agreed to a worldview that’s not supported by current events around the world and decided to tag themselves in an article? Big deal. They’re entitled to their delusions and/or opinions.
The article contains interesting ideas that are hardly realities in many places. “Post-mo’s” just sounds like a hipster version of the Log Cabin Republicans (maybe even verging on the GOProud folks.) Not shocking that the picture of these supposed “post-mo’s” are nowhere diverse enough to even be a representation of the so-called LGBTQI community.
Ganondorf
Yeah, it’s over. We lost. But cake still exists, so haz some.