We knew it was only a matter of time until the conservativos came out in defense of Ted Haggard, the evangelical homo-hater who may or may not have been sucking off a rent boy, Mike Jones. James Dobson, the equally haterific leader of Focus on the Family, has released a statement admonishing Jones and praising Haggard’s role as a religious leader:
It is unconscionable that the legitimate news media would report a rumor like this based on nothing but one man’s accusation. Ted Haggard is a friend of mine and it appears someone is trying to damage his reputation as a way of influencing the outcome of Tuesday’s election — especially the vote on Colorado’s marriage-protection amendment — which Ted strongly supports.
He has shown a great deal of grace under these unfortunate circumstances, quickly turning this matter over to his church for an independent investigation. That is a testament to the character I have seen him exhibit over and over again through the years.
We don’t know how Dobson measures one’s character, but we assume it involves an uncanny ability to manipulate Biblical passages for evil, set up a shady church-sanctioned investigation and a bottomless hatred of homos. (We say bottomless because, let’s face it, all the peeps decrying homosexuality as a sin really just want it up the butt.)
Previously: I Did Not Have Sexual Relations With That Hooker
markie
i can just see dobson wringing his hand together, singing with glee: “we’re in the money”
Damon - Atlanta
Wahhh Hahhh! So Teddy Pooh has been ministering on his knees as it were – for three years no less! Oh how I hate a sloopy blow job from a Bible-banging queer. Here’s hoping he finds his salvation in dick as opposed to pussy. He’ll also have to forego his weekly phone call to W I guess, unless they want to swap boy stories. Oh go figure!
Neal
I am not sure what reference it is that Dobson or Haggard hates homosexuals. They seem to be poor communicators. Not all “fundamental evangelicals” hate homosexuals. Those mentioned earlier and others – like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson – are shown saying things out of context, say things that don’t come across as intended (Kerry: dummies go to Iraq), and just flat out misuse the writings of the Bible. It doesn’t take much to destroy a persons life nowadays…just an accusation and a touch of media.
Steven
Ha, your name’s Neal.
JD
Typical anti-Christian bigotry. Ho Hum!
What a boring column.
Maybe just a bored columnist.
He probably just needs to find a real woman.
Then again, he probably wouldn’t know what to do with her.
MN
HO HUM?
How about HEH HEH!
You superstitious guys are so funny.
Francis Capretti
i know ted haggard and he is a man of unquestionable character. he would not cheat on his wife with anybody much less a man. mike jones is a liar, that mothereffer is just out get money from ted or the church. he should not get a penny
Richard
Just a fag accusing a good man of doing wrong , you will see this is a big lie it will all come out.
Ron
I anticipate with glee seeing another Swaggert-like display. Ted Haggard tearfully begging forgiveness from GOD in front of the whole congregation. I for one would be dissapointed if he were vindicated. I don’t like gay-bashers or those whose words do the bashing. And that christian “love the sinner hate the sin” to me is just a new twist on the old hatred.
frozen north
Um. The Jones guy has saved emails and saved taped messages as evidence. I think Mr. Haggard has some ‘splainin’ to do.
A.
This is a lie straight from hell, The accuser is among a group who is trying to affect Voters decisions on Tuesday. This is a very serious accusation against a MAN OF GOD! Those involved with this scandal need to be extemely careful, they’ve touched an anointed Godly Man. Ted Haggard has been lied on. Keep your Faith & Eyes of Christ Brother Haggard… Vengence are the Lord’s, and HE WILL REPAY!
RRRR.
Are you fucking people serious? How many holy “men of god” have to turn up having sex with dudes before you realize that they aren’t what they seem? They may be popular and charismatic, but that has shit to do with virtue. The truth is, you don’t know these men, you know their public persona. They’re performers, entertainers. That’s not to say they don’t have faith or “godlyness” or what have you, but essentially they’re putting on a show. Don’t be shocked when you find out that they aren’t what they seem.
And by the way, Francis, you claim that:
“mike jones is a liar, that mothereffer [sic] is just out get money from ted or the church. he should not get a penny”
My question is, what exactly do you think the church would pay him for? How do you suppose this extortion would work? Extortion happens when you demand money in exchange for keeping something secret. He kinda blew his load already, no? (pun intended, obviously) So what exactly do ya think would they be paying him for, big guy? And honestly Francis, just type motherfucker. Just go for it, it feels good. Motherfucker. See? It’s easy.
Ron
I see “A” invokes the sacred words of that loving GOD he worships. That same ALL KNOWING GOD who demanded proof of Abraham’s love by killing his own son. Whats with this GOD? Sounds a little insecure….more like a Mafia Boss. I guess when “A” gets to heaven he can spend eternity kissing HIS ring.
candace
THIS ARTICLE IS DISGUTING..NOT ABOUT TED OR THE PROSTITUTE…BUT THE MAN WHO IS WRITING THIS ARTICLE. PASTOR TED IS AN AMAZING PASTOR, FATHER AND HUSBAND….ANYONE WHO THINKS DIFFERENT ONLY KNOW HIM THROUGH TODAY’S MEDIA.
IT TAKES A SICK PERSON TO ACCUSE A MAN WITH HIS CHARACTER OF SUCH A PERVERSE THING ….IT WILL COME OUT IN THE END…THIS MAN SAYS HE HAS TAPES AND EVIDENCE…YET SAYS HE’LL NEVER REVEAL IT. FUNNY. IF IT WERE TRUE…HE WOULD WANT TO PROVE IT TO US, DON’T YOU THINK?
YOU ALL HEAR WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR AND GO WITH WHAT THE MEDIA IS BLOWING IT UP TO BE…HOW ABOUT WATCHING GOOD MORNING AMERICA TOMORROW AND LISTENING TO PASTOR TED TELL YOU HIMSELF.
esther
Is it that amusing to you to use crass, perverted “humor” and belittle and disparage a person that you don’t know? You can tell it’s out of pure hatred…for someone who’s never hated you. He may condemn actions, but I know without a doubt that if you met him in person, he would treat you with respect, love, and decency. Whether or not you like or agree with the beliefs of these men, you have to admit that James Dobson hits the nail on the head…based on one unconfirmed allegation, people are unsubstantially assuming Haggard is guilty. I for one can’t wait for the Truth to surface.
Ron
Hey Ester….Is your remark “belittle and disparage a person that you don’t know?” ….. like condemning homosexuals to Hell or denying them equal rights in their relationships? Like writing hatred and bigotry into the State constituion and calling it Love or Defense of Marriage? Go look in the Mirror …..I think there is something in your eye and it may be blinding to your spiritual vision.
Matthew 7:5 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but don’t consider the beam that is in your own eye?
esther
Okay Ron, i see that you’re familiar with the Scripture, but obviously you aren’t familiar with all of it.
Lev. 18:22, “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.”
Rom. 1:26-28, “For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper.”
1 Cor. 6:9-10, “Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”
Pastor Ted nor I am “belittling or disparaging” homosexuals….those words are from God Himself.
Carla
Ron ~
In regards to what you wrote to ESTHER above you…she was stating the fact that Ted was being judged by people who don’t even know him.
I personally know him and know he’s a Man of God and trust that the Truth will set him free. I’m not on here to defend homosexuality or argue…I just want people on here to investigate for themselves the truth.
Stop being so crass and vulger about it and creating this into something it’s not.
Tom
I don’t know him personally, but I can read:
“After Pastor Ted Haggard went public Wednesday night denying allegations of a homosexual affair, senior church officials told KKTV 11News Thursday evening, Pastor Ted Haggard has admitted to some of the claims made by a former male escort. The church’s Acting Senior Pastor, Ross Parsley, tells KKTV 11 News that Pastor Haggard has admitted to some of the indiscretions claimed by Mike Jones, but not all of them.“
web_serfer
Haggard Admits…some things….
http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=6388&t=Evangelical+pastor+confesses+to+'some'+accusations
http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?idarticle=6389
Ron
Tell candace No14
…..I will be watching Good Morning America and listening intently to the denver Radio station Playing transcripts in addition to the 2 below quoted from speroforum.com:
August 4, 2006 2:18 pm
“Hi Mike, this is Art. Hey, I was just calling to see if we could get any more. Either $100 or $200 supply. And I could pick it up really anytime I could get it tomorrow or we could wait till next week sometime and so I also wanted to get your address. I could send you some money for inventory but that’s probably not working, so if you have it then go ahead and get what you can and I may buzz up there later today, but I doubt your schedule would allow that unless you have some in the house. Okay, I’ll check in with you later. Thanks a lot, bye.”
August 4, 2006 5:10 pm
“Hi Mike this is Art, I am here in Denver and sorry that I missed you. But as I said, if you want to go ahead and get the stuff, then that would be great. And I’ll get it sometime next week or the week after or whenever. I will call, though, you early next week to uh, see what’s most convenient for you. Okay? Thanks a lot. Bye.”
Mike Jones said he met Haggard after he advertised on the internet as a male escort and Haggard replied calling himsel Art. Arthur is Haggard’s middle name. Jones said he has more recordings and more will be played on a Denver radio station tomorrow.
And to Carla and ester in Nos 17 and 18
….if these acusations prove to be true; what is Haggards defense going to be? The Devil made me do it?
John B
Couldn’t have happened to a better guy. I remember Haggard from a Richard Dawkins documentary on Channel 4 here in England a year ago, in which he smarmed his way around the fact that his brand of Christianity was all smoke and mirrors intended to excite the witless. Like countless hateful American fundamentalist preachers before him, it’s turned out that he has more than a few skeletons in his closet. Snorting methamphetamine then having sex with a rent boy? Priceless.
Anderson
Seriously, the writer of the article sees the world through the lenses of dirty words because that’s the world he lives in.
“homo-hater”
“sucking off”
“rent boy”
“haterific”
“hatred of homos”
That’s the world the bigot writer lives in, where someone who does not agree with your behavior actually hates you, and everything in between. This article reveals the true nature of some people in the gay movement.
I don’t care if you are gay, I don’t agree, I don’t think it’s right but if you are, that’s your problem. But I have the right to dislike your behavior and to say it’s wrong, as you have the right to say it’s right.
Vin
I am sorry for the one who is ,and the one is to come, who is Name Jesus Christ, this sorry extend to the millions of people who belived in God. God still can use Tedd, lets go back in History and what the bible have to say about Moses the muder, David the muder and adulter shall I go on, Moses never had the pleasure of the promiseland, David die pittyfully, Thank God Pastor Ted and his congeration have Jesus who can give Him forgiveness right now, I spiritual minister now to all those hurting souls, They should remember that no man is that vile in the eyes of God that he can’t use them, Ted’s Action is just the tip, Read Revelation ,His actions are wrong, There are Many more Pastor like Ted, God will deal with them, the members of the church must belive that God is with them, and That God have heard their cry for help. I pray that God will heal each one as he sees fit.
Ron
Yes Anderson the article has that “Fire and Brimstone” quality to it. I guuess one must fight fire with fire or stoop to their adversary’s level to drive their point across.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_and_brimstone
Fire and brimstone is a motif in Fundamental Christian preaching that uses vivid descriptions of Hell and damnation to encourage the listeners to fear divine wrath and punishment.
Oolon Colluphid
Who is this God person anyway?
Allan
This only proves that when we attack a group/ lifestyle of anyone the spotlight on us is that much more intense. I read some of Ted’s stuff and I think it was idiotic, but he has the right to say such things. I think at the beginning he took a stance a on a little right angle and the god squad/right winged group pushed him in to the bible pounding puppet he is. that made his secret more ironic and harder for him to contain and control. I have gay Friends and my job on this earth is to give them and everyone else as much love and respect I can muster up in gods name. If there a punishment for any lifestyles people live, it not my Job to deal it out. More “Christians need to understand that we don’t have the power to send anyone to eternal damnation, except ourselves. I’ll pray for Ted to fine peace
Sven
All Mike has to do is bring out those tapes and emails he has saved, and Teddy boy just needs to come and volunteer for a drug test. If the mails have originated from Ted’s IP address, and if he tests positive for meth, that guy has essentially fucked himself. If not, Mike goes in jail for a while for slander, simple as that.
But if anyone is jumping with delight on this news, its Richard Dawkins. Haggard was such an arrogant ass, and I’m surprised how some people here are saying he’s such a ‘nice person’. Wake up yall, he wants your money, your goddamn money!
Sweet Justice
As someone who spent their youth in an evangelical church, this comes as no surprise. From small church to large, the loudest, most fundamentalist Christians are always the most hypocritical. Here’s the irony: if you live a good life – christian or otherwise, you aren’t focused on how other people live theirs.
For my own entertainment, I think more people should post scriptures here , talk about Ted’s innocence and what a horrible person the prostitute is. Yes, the openly gay prostitute is far worse of a person than the head of a religious organization who has a wife and five kids, cheated on them with seomeone whose lifestyle he used for political gain, then continued to lie about his behavior up until the point where he realized there was evidence of his deceit (just a few hours ago).
Of course his supporters will see his homosexuality as his shame, when it’s actually his lying, deceit and willingness to prevent decent, monogamous gays from sharing in the legal rights afforded him and his wife. He is the morally bankrupt one who doesn’t deserve the “sanctity of marriage”. What a waste of so many folks energy to satisfy his own screwed up psychology.
Collin
I like his comment that “I never had sex with a man… in Denver.”
Coy Reese
The infidels pat robertson, jerry falwell, james dobson, ralph reed, and now the apparently self-loathing homosexual, Ted Haggard continue to be exposed for the hate-filled filth they are. God certainly does bring down punishment on those that use Him and his Word to promote hatered, intolerance, and the advancement of a twisted political agenda. These pieces of human scum will have a monumental surprise when the infamous “Rapture” takes place.
Woody
“Man of God”!!! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
slurp
Pull_Up_A_Chair
I grew up in the Mormon Church — I ran screaming when I was 17. I’m 49 now. The hypocrisy of the born again movement has always been a source of amusement for me – The people who find “God” are those who also find themselves on death row, in unhappy marriages, who don’t fit in, who bottom out and join any number of 12 step programs – In other words, those who have, in the words of Kris Kristopherson, “Nothin’ left to lose.” I wouldn’t trust any one of the born again S.O.B.’s any farther than I could toss them, my advice to those having these people over for Thanksgiving? HIDE THE SILVERWARE!
Brian Geoffrey
Not anti-Christian bigotry, anti-Christian common sense.
You can claim, hey, I’m a person of faith, I read the Bible, I don’t like this stuff, etc. Just the fact that SOME of your leaders are so hypocritical (this is a FACT, Haggard ADMITTED he did something wrong) makes Christians very dangerous and worthy of whatever critcism they get. They do not deserve to weild the political power they now do.
Your move?
Laura Poirot
My husband and I have been watching FoxNews this morning and comparing their coverage of this development with MSNBC and CNN. It’s really amazing how Fox has buried this story. One approximately 15 second mention and then no more. If youwent to the bathroom, you missed it. Sadly, this is the only source of news some people use. And IT IS a national interest story—Ted Haggard tells his flock he speaks with President Bush on a weekly basis. They share VALUES. Ted expresses to Bush’s staff the direction they should go and Bush’s people tell Ted what propaganda to feed his flock! That’s important to all of us. But Fox won’t point out to its audience that possibly Ted Haggard is a hypocrite. And I’m afraid that Ted’s audience and Fox’s are for the most part demographically the same.
Peter LeCornu
Sewing fear of homosexuality has been the main money-maker for Dobsen’s Focus on the Family and the organization they fronted in the 1990’s Colorado for Family Values, for the pioneering legislation — which ultimately failed — to deny gays the ability to legislate for any rights in the future. Seriously, not Salvation, Healing, Love, or any theme has been central to the income of Focus, as politics and rant against homosexuality.
New Life church has also made anti-homosexual politics a part of their cash machine, but not to the same degree as FOTF. At one point FOTF’s single minded anti-gay propaganda blamed all the ills of society on homosexuality including pre-marital pregnancy! (They said the permissive atmosphere created by acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle made straights less moral, less responsible, and more promiscuous.)
Recently, Bush has used people’s fear of gay marriage to gain votes in the upcoming election. The potential for sewing fear about homosexuality in ignorant or sheltered people is without limit.
To many evangelicals, it wouldn’t matter if there were video of Bush, Dobson, a rent boy, and Haggard all going at it while doing meth. Evangelicals use such revelations to fortify their belief that “the Devil got in there†and see their own lives and the lives of everyone as a titanic struggle between God and the Devil. More specifically, they see homosexuality as a demonic possession — that the Devil causes people to make this choice. This is one of the surprising things that I found both laughable and appalling about their anti-gay propaganda. They treat homosexual impulses as if it is something very attractive to nearly all men at some point, ahead of gambling or drinking. Of course, the way they link homosexuality to recruitment or pedophilia is also absurd and reprehensible. Now they’ll use this incident as a way to link homosexuality to meth use.
They fail to accept that the surgeon operating on them may be gay, or that a teacher who is inspiring their child to positive things may be gay, etc. Not all evangelicals are so butt-ignorant about homosexuality, but most are. Most can’t even be modestly rational, and understand how homosexuality, for nearly all homosexuals, is not a choice.
Jim Schroeder
Hating homosexuals is wrong, but so is reveling in the destruction of another person. I hear a lot about how all Christians hate gays but there seems to be a lot of vitrol heading the other way.
The Bible states that a marriage is between a woman and a man. If the state of New Jersey or any other state wants to give equal benefits to people that is the business of the people and their elected officials. Equal rights is different then co-opting words right out of the Bible and redefining them.
The Bible states that homosexual intercourse is a sin, but so are SO MANY other sins which are swept under the carpet (fill in your own list here – all are equally offensive to God). Any church which singles out homosexuality as a worse sin than another is wrong, but so is any church or Christian leader who denies the Bible says what it says is intellectually dishonest.
Is there a genetic component to homosexuality? There very well may be. I also believe there is a genetic component to alcohol and drug addiction, obesity and maybe many other things. What if that which Genesis talks about as Adam and Eve’s sin which is imputed in every person goes to the genetic level? I still need to keep my hands off too much food and booze! Every person has different propensities, or as Christians would call them, sinful urges.
We don’t all want to be Christians and that is fine. If you believe the Bible is a fairy tale, fine. If you believe that all “couples” (including siblings who have never wed but live together and good friends who live together but are not sexually active) deserve rights equal to married men and women that is a decision of the state. It is a considerate decision and comes from a desire to help people.
No person gets to decide what ranks as a worse or lesser sin and every person is going to die. When we die Christians believe we will be judged based on our acceptance of Christ and turning away from the things the Bible calls sin. Christians want everyone to go to heaven, which I hope you agree seeing it from their mindset is a noble thought. They think they are helping people too.
But if you don’t believe all of that garbage and want to take your chances that is your perogative. Put your ideas out there and they will put theirs out there and people will decide which worldview to choose.
If non-Christians are right in believing the Bible is a fairy tale then everyone lived the way they wanted to live and tried to be hayy and enjoy this world. If the Christians are right then… there will be some ‘splaning to do. Regardless – it is your choice.
Dmac
I will agree with the man above me. Thank you for laying honest truth. People will want to take this any which way they can, but it simply settles on the matter that sin will be punished on judgement day. We can talk about genetics or anything else that helps us compromise issues….but compromise will always call itself anything but sin. Christians believe that sin will be dealt with on that day. That said, I myself love God with all my being — yet I fall short every day. I fell short this morning. There is forgiveness for those who decide NOT to camp in compromise and make a conscious decision (repentance) to tear their heart (yes, it usually hurts to turn from sin) and run towards God in desperation. There’s more than forgiveness…there’s the blood of Jesus that is ABLE to deliver you from ANY sin you struggle with. Yes, even homesexuality. Bless you guys.
Kevin
esther, shut up! Every anti-gay person clings to those passages to justify their hatred for gay people. AND DON’T SAY OTHERWISE BECAUSE YOU KNOW IT’S TRUE AND SO DO I.
Jim Schroeder, the bible also was used to justify slavery, women’s oppression. Do you own a slave? Does your female partner obey your commands?
Warrior Woman yiyiyiyiyiyi!!!
Hey, I am Mormon just like the guy who went running at 17. I am actively so, yet I still don’t understand the “born agains”. Believe it or not, Evangelicals put Mormons in the same category with all da sinners and nonbelievers of the world who are going to Hell.
In the Mormon religion only Jesus can save you, after enduring to the end. Being “born again” is jsut the beginning and isn’t your ticket into heaven. Life is a test in which you go through times that you may screw up and repent again. But you hope not to .
I have done my share of repenting!! So thus my take on this Haggard thing- he is a Christian, not God so I am not surprised if he has a little secret. Who doesn’t? But his mistake is walking around with his head high like he is perfect and “saved” looking down on all of us, the sinners. If he is cheating on his wife, gay or not, then that doesn’t mean the Bible is wrong. (we believe that the Bible isn’t perfect anyways)That means Haggard is wrong. Again, who doesn’t need a lesson here or there. That is why when someone attacks a Mormon leader, few really could care less. Jesus is the only example that we should follow. Leaders can fall (think King Solomon, even Moses had his weaknesses, and evangelicals you are wasting your time with Brigham Young and Joseph Smith) but the church moves on.
I think it is sick that the gay movement is using this as a way to attack all Christians. Shame on you! Support a brother, show the love. Prove to me that the gay lifestyle is so “gay” and stop trying to attack those who don’t believe the same as you. I havent seen a happy gay person yet. The saddest people I ever saw were at gay dance club. I made the mistake of going completely sober. I saw everything, even the things people were doing in the dark corners. I had to leave early. That experience plus the fact that I worked for Disney changed my view of the gay movement forever. (the heteros weren’t much better by the way, I was a bad hetero too but now I have completely changed my life and enjoy my family and husband immensely. Yes, there is peace out there )
Haggard and the Gay movement really need to think deeply about their lives and watch what they say. They are disgusting us people in the middle just trying to live our lives.
toujoursdan
The Bible says that same sex cult prostitution is a sin. There is no mention of monogamous relationships.
Ask most Jewish scholars about the Leviticus passages in Chapters 18 and 20 and they will tell you that it condemned sex with Molech priests and married men, which was believed to bless them with a good harvest. Reform, Reconstructionalist, Conservative and some Orthodox Jews ordain gays and bless gay relationships.
The passage in Romans specifically mentions that it is pagan rituals that were being punished by same sex lust (not love) in verses 1.23 and 1.25. It was obviously an indictment of Roman temple prostitution. Romans 1 cannot be separated from Romans 2 which says we are all guilty of the SAME sin. (Parallel to Jesus’ teaching on motes and beams.)
And finally, no one knows what Corinthians 6.9 is condemning. “arsenokoitai” has been translated at least a dozen different ways over the centuries. Martin Luther thought it condemned same sex paedophillia and until the 20th Century, many Christians believe that it condemned masturbation.
Stop using the Bible to justify ignorance. It gives us mainstream Christians a bad wrap.
Jamel
There is no mistaking that homosexuality is wrong according to the Bible. Its the God’s honest (no pun) truth of the matter. Now what are Christians suppose to say? That it is not a matter of Biblical Morality when it is just to appease a group and not be considered hateful. Its not hateful for one to denounce a practice that is contrary to his religion, in our case the Word. So I do not understand what the debate is. There might be some twisted individuals within the Christian Faith that take this to the extreme and the case for hate is valid..but let them be the exception to the rule. I take the same position as John 3:16..I do not want anyone to perish but to have eternal life. And the Bible is clear on how one achieves eternal life.
So if anyone be in darkness whether engaging in homosexuality or any other behavior outside the borders of God’s word my approach to is to lovingly tell them that their actions are not the way to eternal life.
I am not perfect..and when i hear my Pastor on Sunday give me a word the divides my soul and brings my wrongs to the forefront the farthest thing from my mind is that he is saying these things because he hates me!!
I do however understand why homosexuals react the way they do to the truth. Well my truth may not be their truth. I believe in the Word. I believe that it is the final authority that governs my life..so i would welcome anyone to hold me to its standard. How can you hold someone accountable to the Word if they are not a Christian. To us homosexuality is foolishness because it goes against the wisdom of God’s Word..but they are walking in the wisdom of what they deem to be acceptable and right. They govern themselves on what they FEEL as does anyone who is not a Christian.
So my belief is that the “You’re a sinner” approach is counter productive…because they do not believe that they are sinning!
My word to all who sin is repent and believe..just a John and Jesus preached when they came onto the scene. They did not yell those words in the villages and from the hilltops because they had hate in their hearts…they did it because of love..the kind of love that desires that all men be saved.
Kevin
Warrior Woman yiyiyiyiyiyi, you’re a LIAR and a HATEFUL person.
Jamel
toujoursdan…about your “us mainstream christians” coment..what is a mainstream Christian?
Is there such thing as a mainstream Christian? Either you are for right and against wrong or vice versa…the problem is that there are too many compromising mainstream Christians out there not willingly to take a stance for the pure and undefiled Word of God.
Anyone can take the Word and twist it to suit their fancy..as I see with many of the posts here. It seems as if our feelings dictate our beliefs and actions and anything in the Word that does not agree is either discarded and manipulated to allow us to walk in the wisdom of our own foolishness
There is not such thing as a mainstream Christian…i wonder if Jesus was mainstream..and the strictest definition of Christianity is Christ-like!
Jamel
Excuse the spelling on the last post
Daniel Howe
Wow!!! Wake up people! Rightwing’s like TED are just hypocrites… I hope he can handle his guilt, thinkin of possible young gay people who maybelistened to Ted’s rhetoric and killed themselves… think Dobson would be sorry for that? This is 2006 and it’s maybe time people who want to make personal, human rights issue immoral? wake up before more people get hurt!
Pepe
All this proves is that Jesus is the one to be followed and not a pastor. Like the rest of us, he’s a sinful being. Only Jesus was perfect and He wants to meet you where you are. Gay or not, we all sin and need someone to carry that burden for us. God’s son did that for us 2, 006 years ago and the covenant is as strong and beautiful as it was back then. May God bless all readers of this message.
AH
Okay first of all Ron, No 13, i don’t know if you read the whole story on Abraham or you just selectively chose what to read, but Abraham did NOT kill Isaac, yes God tested Abraham’s love for Him, but if you read on, before Abraham was going to obiedently sacrifice Isaac, an Angel of God called upon him and said , “Abraham! Abraham! Do not lay a hand on the boy. Do not do anything to him. NOW I SEE THAT YOU FEAR GOD, BECAUSE YOU HAVE WITHHELD FROM ME YOUR SON, YOUR ONLY SON.” (Genesis 22:11-12) Also may I ask to all you people who are condemming Ted, especially because he’s the national Evangelistic leader, who here can say they’ve never done something wrong and are perfect, including Christians. We ALL have done something that has embarressed us, and we’re not perfect. i also find it very strange that this Mike Jones all of a sudden comes out of the closet THREE days before the elections and supposably this scandal has been going on for THREE years. So why now Mr. Jones,may I ask? And who better to accuse then the leader of evangelistics, who has been preaching to his 14,000 church members on opposing gay marriage. Seems to me like a perfect opportunity to make everyone second guess themselves all the way up to questioning God. But you know what, this doesn’t make me second guess anything, because I know it was an attack. I will continue to pray for Ted and his Church. For those of you who have been getting a kick out of all of this and putting down Christians, I will pray for you as well. Here are some verses to remember:
Matthew 7:1-2 – Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Matthew 16:27 – For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
Isaiah 11:3-4 – And he will delight in the fear of the Lord. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears, but with rightousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.
Harry Stover
It seems funny that News Organizations is gleefully wringing there hands at the demise of another.
Remember… ‘Let him who is without sin cast the first stone’
Pidipady
Gin
I find this article so sad. It is very frustrating that people think just because someone is a Christian, they are perfect. No one is perfect, Christians are only human too, we are just forgiven. We still make mistakes. Pastor Haggard did not have sex with this man that is accusing him. And I quote “I bought it for myself but never used it,” he said. “I was tempted, but I never used it.” “He said he did get a massage from Jones after being referred to him by a Denver hotel.†I’ve received massages from my sister who is a massage therapist; does this mean we had a gay relationship? No. People want so much to be able to find things wrong with others, but like the bible say’s “He who is without sin, cast the first stoneâ€. No one can throw anything because we’re all human.
german dude
“MAN OF GOD”? you say this IN DEFENSE of some schmock who preaches bigottry?
you americans are so incredibly ignorant to history, culture, and plain humanistic sense. HITLER was a MAN OF GOD too. what do you think all those iron crosses on our tanks and airplanes and jackets and knifes and beltbuckles were? huh?
for those who have their historic consciousness stcuk up their rear ends, hitler was a devout catholic.
by the way, hewho preaches the loudest has the most to cover up. learned that in, like, 3rd grade. time for y’all to go back to school?
JG
It’s 1:30 PM PST and from what I’ve read, Ted has admitted to doing Meth and getting a massage to ABC News. “No Sex Though!” He was doing this with a paid male prostitute. Perhaps in the words of Freak Show we should ” All just take a minute and pray”. Wake up and smell the AstroGlide people.
Personally, I don’t care what Teddy does on his own time, but the idea that he stands up and gay bashes and does phone ins’ with the White House, well…..
If we had to restore dignity after Clinton got a blowjob from a consenting female adult, we probably should just burn the place down now and rebuild it at taxpayer expense like we did the Superdome.
Anyone who would stand up in defense of this guy is, well… probably an American. We seem to be the only country with people this stupid and ignorant.
School can’t help these people German Dude. Thank you for the suggestion however.
Peter LeCornu
Homos don’t hate Chrisitans. Most gays, like myself, grow up as Christian. On the other hand, most Christians don’t have any first hand experience with being homosexual or even knowing a family member who is gay. So, this is what infuriates gays about the evangelical Christians who wish to expound upon the nature of homosexuality, and how unhealthy it is for society, or how amoral it is, and legislate about it, putting restrictions on our lives and institutionalizing their prejudice and misconceptions. If evangelical Christians had their way, they would prevent gays from government, or teaching in schools, for example. Will Perkins’s ground breaking legislation in Colorado years ago — defeated for being unconstitutional — passed in the vote, that would not allow gays to put forward any future protective legislation.
In the early years of AIDS, there were many Evangelical Christians who thought all people with HIV should be put in concentration camps.
Most gays who grow up in a Christian religion, or even Western society, go through an agonizing period where they realize they are not like the majority, i.e. heterosexual, and probably won’t have families and propagate, as we are encouraged to do from our first years growing up. However, in the process of coming to grips with ourselves as gay, it is a difficult but rewarding experience too, which makes most gays think more deeply about everything. And yes, we question the part of any religion that brands our sexual orientation wrong or amoral. For us, it is totally natural, as natural as skin color, not something that can be changed through prayer or therapy.
Now, according to the latest, Haggard has admitted to buying meth (but not using it) and only getting a massage from this Jones stud. (Of course, he doesn’t say WHAT was massaged.) I don’t believe that all Christians are lying, hypocritical, duplicitous homos or bisexuals, just because Haggard probably is.
Spare us all the Biblical interpretation, which was thinking that existed in a society in a different time and place. In addition, the Bible is vague, contradicts itself, and open to any interpretation you wish to impose on it.
Even Evangelical Christians, assign their own interpretations to the same passages. Mormons think they are the only group with the REAL truth, and most other Christian sects, and other religions, are the same. They are chosen, enlightened ones, and everyone else is hell bound.
Most gays, Christian gays or secular ones, would simply like to enjoy the rights and freedoms, same as everyone else. In public life, speaking against gays is the last acceptable prejudice in many circles, and Evangelicals are downright preoccupied with it. That is what makes the Haggard fall so exceptional.
I wonder if pop psychologist Dobson can come up with an explanation of why Haggard would be curious about crack.
My explanation is that both political leaders and religious leaders — especially the self made kind — are prone to excess. There’s just something about meth and Jesus, that to me, is unfathomable. Although I suppose you do have your Methodists.
darlink
Next time you see Ted on TV, he’ will be saying ” Yes, I may have smoked that salami cigar, but i did not inhale…”
Anyways, if Ted does admit to buying meth, why from a gay escort of all people? doesn’t that say something about the denial– admit only to the things you know there is proof of out in the public domain, and lie thru your teeth about the rest. this defense looks similiar to the Mark Foley case. come clean on some things you can’t lie about, lie about everything else. somewhere, someone out there will be compassionate enough to believe you. I wonder which was more awkward for Mike Jones: hearing Ted’s labored moans as they were doing the ol’ pork sausage jiggle, or listening to self righteous gay bashing afterwards.
Ron
To ‘AH’ NO.48
………So that makes it ok……Imagine how conflicted Abraham was when he received those instructions from his “GOD OF LOVE”. Whats GOD’s excuse for this horror HE inflicted on Abraham? “Oh JUST KIDDING…I JUST WANTED TO SEE IF YOU WOULD DO IT…JOKES ON YOU.
‘AH’…is this the god you believe in? Not me….Nazis conducted cruel experiments like this in the concentration camps. Abraham should have stood up to GOD and rebuked him saying “are YOU nuts or has your power distorted your being?”.
We need people who will standup to HORROR done in the name of a powerful leaders who say don’t question me just do as I tell you. Your greatest flaw is your willingness to say “Its GOD’s word and that makes it RIGHT”. This willingness to follow without question is dangerous and probably won the last presidential election for the republicans who manipulated you with your fears and finds us mired in Iraq. I am convinced Bush would not be in the White House if the Religious right had used their heads and didn’t listen to people like Ted Haggard and James Dobson and a host of others doing “GODS WORK”
no altar boy left unfondled
Since Dobson is so quick to jump in, maybe Dobson=Hastert. More cover ups for the masses. They may hate gays, but hypocrisy and lies are ok. Yet, the legal ramification here, if these allegations are true, is that Ted Haggard may have used church funds to finance his secret monthly trysts , a la Jim Bakker. Hence, Ted should be investigated by the IRS for misuse of charity donations and financial irregularities. These scandals, when they surface, usually represent the tip ( bad pun intended) of a horribly large iceberg of internal corruption. Just look at the Catholic Church if you are skeptical.
SpamHammer
the right wing evangelicals are not dangerous to American democracy, its the corrupt Republicans in power who use gay marriage and abortion as wedge issues to get themselves elected that are the problem. Evangelicals are good people, even if they have followed their leaders a bit too blindly over the cliff. It is good and proper for people to stand up for their beliefs. What is bad is when someoone claims to be standing up for morality and for God to do the very thing they have been preaching against. It is also bad for a fellow preacher to advocate compassion and understanding on behalf of his fallen peer without giving that self same loving absolution to the rest of the unwashed hordes of gays in the rest of the country and the world. I would just like to know that when someone claims to stand for something, I can take if for face value. How can they expect me to become a convert one day if they can’t even live up to their own belief systems? Yes, no one is perfect. Not me. But at least, I am not sneaking around somewhere snorting up meth to maximize my secret monthly gay encounters. How far do you have to be away from perfect to know that is wrong?
If Coloradow wants to have a ban on gay marriage, maybe they should also pass an amendment to randomly drug tests their preachers for HIV and Drugs. That would only be fair. Afterall, preachers do interact with children a lot.
John Doe
All you poor die-hard right-wing religious fanatics can take your blinders off and get hip to reality.
You’d blindly follow any of these assholes and Bush right off a cliff!
Believing in the Lord has nothing to do with being a freaking idiot.
Wake up and pull your heads out, will ya?
The Christian Coalition was a Republican front with about as much to do with the Christian faith as the Elks Club has to do with large hoofed animals.
Jimmy Carter said: “The fundamentalists believe they have a unique relationship with God, and that they and their ideas are God’s ideas and God’s premises on the particular issue. Therefore, by definition since they are speaking for God anyone who disagrees with them is inherently wrong. And the next step is: Those who disagree with them are inherently inferior, and in extreme cases – as is the case with some fundamentalists around the world – it makes your opponents sub-humans, so that their lives are not significant. Another thing is that a fundamentalist can’t bring himself or herself to negotiate with people who disagree with them because the negotiating process itself is an indication of implied equality. And so this administration, for instance, has a policy of just refusing to talk to someone who is in strong disagreement with them – which is also a radical departure from past history. So these are the kinds of things that cause me concern. And, of course, fundamentalists don’t believe they can make mistakes, so when we permit the torture of prisoners in Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib, it’s just impossible for a fundamentalist to admit that a mistake was made.
Geoff
I’m a little confused as to where all the religious conservative comments are coming from. This is a gay website, right? Interesting to find the comments here…
So, aside from the fact that I find religion itself a little silly but am frightened by the fact that we are legislating morality based upon a 1500 year-old book, here are my questions to those of you convinced of the infallability of Pastor Ted:
He said that the hotel recommended the ‘masseuse’. Can you imagine a hotel employee recommending a gay prostitute to someone who needs a massage? That doesn’t sound like a lie?
If you are a heterosexual man and suddenly in need of a massage, would you ask the hotel staff to give you a number to call? I would think that they might misintepret my intentions.
Does it bother you that he lied when he initially said he didn’t know Jones? Do you think he wouldn’t lie again to cover this up?
Does that sound like Pastor Ted’s voice on the message? It does to me.
Why would someone who has said he has never done drugs suddenly want to buy methamphetamine? Simple curiousity?
Peter LeCornu
Here are James Dobson’s (head of Focus on the Family) comments on the Haggard incident:
“Ted has been my close friend and colleague for many years. He has been used mightily to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ in Colorado Springs and around the world. He will continue to be my friend, even if the worst allegations prove accurate. Nevertheless, sexual sin, whether homosexual or heterosexual, has serious consequences, and we are extremely concerned of Ted, his family and his church.”
“We ask that the Focus on the Family constituency and Christians everywhere pray for Ted and his loved ones. Our hearts to out to all of them. Perhaps the allegations are false and the circumstances are not as we have heard. Either way, the situation has grave implications for the Cause of Christ and we ask for the Lord’s guidance and blessings in the days ahead.”
======================
Grave implications for the cause of Christ? Give me a freaking break. The cause of Christ hasn’t changed an iota, and can only be helped by weeding out the hypocrites. Dobson’s “concern” over Haggard’s church sounds like a thinly veiled expression of Dobson’s desire to step in and take it over, to help his “friend.” In that way, he can make sure New Life’s services don’t move from dancing and rock music to gay orgies, and of course, it would multiply his own evangelical empire. I’m sure Dobson feels New Life could benefit greatly from an infusion of his self-righteous, pop psychology “Bible-based” baloney.
Perhaps Dobson meant “the cause of Christ” as reflected through the megachurch envisioned (and he had lots-o-visions, if you read the great article about him in Harper’s) by Haggard.
It is amazing how when some of these well known preachers fall, they really fall hard. Aside from the Baakers, before that there was a popular TV Bible-based preacher in Texas, Garner Ted Armstrong, who was found to have had sex with over 200 of his female followers (many of them married) in a one or two year period. That is more than Cassenova had in his whole life.
I think the shock for followers, is that many of them have temptations of all sorts, and they understand that is human, but love of Christ and Christ’s and love of fellow Christians — all which Haggard had to the max — is supposed to fill that void, and quell the desire to experiment with meth or play around with male prostitution. In other words, for many of the followers especially, it is outside their comprehension.
In some press, there has been a small attempt to blame Jones as if it is a conspiracy. Well, if there was some kind of gay conspiracy, gays would have fronted a younger, and better looking hooker than Jones to seduce Haggard. Instead, no one is denying that it was the other way around, that Haggard contacted Jones. And Jones has been totally upfront with his motives.
I agree with another poster, that Haggard asking a hotel worker for the name of a masseur and ending up with Jones is far fetched. Jones had a rep around his gym as being a good personal trainer. Hotels don’t refer patrons to this kind of masseur.
What kind of preacher is Dobson? He’s an authoritarian, father-figure type preacher. He infuses his messages with pop-psychology, like Dr. Phil, but not quite so humorously and hard-edged. He and Haggard are both smart, not dumb bunnies, like Will Perkins. (Car dealer who was installed by Dobson to spearhead anti gay legislation in Colorado under the “Colorado for Family Values” cloak. ) However, Dobson doesn’t overflow with love or spirituality, as Schuler (Crystal Cathedral) and some others did. Dobson is very vanilla and dry, and therefore appeals to masses of middle-of-the-road type evangelicals.
I was exposed to these people — mostly on TV — because I grew up in an Evangelical/Pentecostal Christian family. I got out at an early age, in college. I was always a very curious, questioning person anyway, and not sheep-like enough to follow any evangelist.
Jeff
When are Christian going to realize that their institutions are man centered? We have built our foundations on sand, now we have to lie and cover up for a fallen hero who has been lifted up by the sheep. Where in the Bible does it say to center our church on a single man? With all the money and Real Estate, are we not becoming so much like the Romanized Church?
Peter LeCornu
Previous poster asks, why/how to all these right wing evangelicals post on a gay website?
They found it the same way I did, through Google, and they want to post their truth (illuminated by the light of Jesus, just as it was for Pastor Ted, but wait, even better, because they aren’t using meth or seeing prostitutes).
Plus, they are trained (subliminally at least) to infiltrate all media and witness, state their iron clad Bible-based beliefs, in most situations. They want to warn gays that they will be judged and go to hell, do everything they can to foil gay marriage or gay rights of any kind. Pastor Ted can screw prostitutes, do meth, set off bombs in shopping malls….won’t matter, he’s SAVED, washed in the blood. Lord will forgive him. Plus, this isn’t their ultimate horror. The worst for them would be if Pastor Ted met a man he LOVED, for whom he wanted to leave his wife, children, and flock for. That would really shatter their world.
According to the superb article in Harper’s, the evangelicals in Colorado Springs, saw it as a place to “beam” the message (Salvation) around the world. They see large cities as lost to homosexuals, the arts, politics, commerce, crime, and they wanted Colorado Springs to be a model for a new Christian city, and new practices, to get very Christo-politcal, and control government by grabbing control of the hearts and minds of all cities, towns and legislators. With the largest church there — larger than all other churches combined, New Life and Haggard were important for that reason. That Haggard talked regularly on the phone with Bush made him special too.
Any evangelist like Dobson or Haggard, who goes from humble beginnings — Haggard with his services held in his home basement — to a multmillion dollar operation where thousands of people have been brought to Christ THROUGH them, starts getting pretty heady. Their vision doesn’t end until every last person on earth has been brought to Jesus and de-homofied, as they believe only Jesus can do it.
It is kind of like Hitler, but without the horrifying Final Solution, who didn’t want to stop at Germany, but wants to go on for the entire world.
Growing up in an Evangelical home, I didn’t throw away Jesus when I realized I was gay. I was scared, and prayed to God, expecting my feelings would change. That lasted a few years. Really wasn’t much different than gays of yore (1950’s and 60’s)thinking it was a normal adolescent phase they would pop out of.
The intense conflict of being a Christian but knowing I was gay, for me, lasted only a few years. Then it was simply a matter of TO THINE OWN SELF BE TRUE. I wasn’t going to throw away Jesus, just disassociate myself from evangelicals with their various malarky, organized churches, family members if necessary, and others who could not accept that being gay is healthy and normal.
William Strickland
Ted Haggard lied and he may be lying about more stuff… even likely he is lying about more stuff.
Any comments on why Mr. Jones failed a lie detector test? I have not seen anyone adress that yet. Maybe they are both lying and the truth is somewhere there in the middle. Just like the truth is somewhere between the right wing pushing their faith evangelicals and the left wing pushing their sexuality in my face every chance they get homovangelicals. Both groups are tired, one trick ponies who need to open their minds and their hearts to others rather than their mouths…
Peter LeCornu
Jones’s lie detector test could be wrong for a variety of reasons, the primary one featured in most newspapers being he only had a few hours sleep and is running on adrenaline. Hopefully, he’ll take the test again. Granted, the truth could be somewhere in between. However, credibility currently falls toward Jones. Haggard wouldn’t contact Jones through a hotel concierge for a gay massage, his latest confession. Jones was advertised on a gay website and it is clear that his services were not therapeutic massage.
Your analogy about truth is poor. “Homovangelicals,” as you call them, are necessary to obtain basic human rights for gay people, such as marriage, just as Black activists had to fight decades for their basic rights.
If one group such as Evangelical Christians, is “vocal” at trying to deprive and prevent gays from obtaining these rights, gays are going to be vocal in doing everything they can to obtain them in a peaceful manner. Neither groups are tired, one trick ponies. However, evangelicals have USED people’s fear of homosexuality, including people like yourself who are sick of it being so in your face, to blow it all out of proportion.
As I wrote in an earlier most, millions of homosexuals have gone through the experience of being raised Christian, but few evangelicals are gay, or are open to understanding what it is like to grow up with gay feelings, in a society that is predominately straight and for years would not even speak the word, or publish it. Reagan wouldn’t even talk about looming health crisis with AIDS, at first, because it had something to do with homosexuals.
Do get used to the “in your face” from gays, and it will be intensified by rightwing evangelicals hatred of the sin of homosexuality and wanting to drag it into politics.
If Evangelicals had their way, we’d end up living in a Christian theocracy, where all decisions are based on visions and people who think a certain phrase in the Bible means we should go out and bomb a country, or whatever.
This blog article points clearly to the fact that Dobson’s first impulse was to blame this whole thing on homosexuals and say that it couldn’t possibly be true. I think that is why the author took such an appropriate wise-ass tone.
I’m for religion being out of politics. Period. Even if I weren’t gay, I would feel this way.
William Strickland
Peter,
I have not survived the atrocities of the holocast firsthand, starved in Darfur or been a homosexual in the good ole USA but no one can walk a mile in every one else’s moccassins. Because I have not “experienced” something then my perspective is illegitimate? Are you the perfect example of the homosexual experience? No. But I still consider your points, except for your point that I and every heterosexual person be excluded from the debate. That is a weak arguement.
You write like a thoughtful guy (I mean that) so help me understand where I am wrong in this way of thinking…
What is the homosexual agenda? Legitimacy. If it were only about rights then the activists would be celebrating the New Jersey decision. Only they are not because it does not grant them the right to use the word marriage. Same rights, same benefits, different word.
What is the evangelical agenda? Legitimacy. They want everyone to accept their worldview so the country would be favorable to them in practice and legislation. No one would get a legal abortion, gays (unmarried couples too probably) would not have access to the same benefits of married hetero couples, churches would be the only thing open on Sundays…
You say homosexuals are fighting because they believe they are fighting for basic human rights.
Evangelicals believe they are being oppressed by the current political state and in relation to the abortion agenda believe they are fighting for the basic rights of the unborn to not be “murdered”, just like the homovangelicals fight for access to partner’s health records, benefits, pensions, adoption rights, etc.
A world where sexual orienentation drives the agenda scares me just as bad as the visions of religious leaders. No thanks. Both groups should look in the mirror and realize they are more alike in their myopic rants than either would care to admit.
I am for religion and sexual orientation being kept out of politics… but think about it, politics is all about expressing your “beliefs” no matter what those beliefs are based on so while it is a nice catch phrase “get religion out of politics” it is absurd to think it will ever happen.
Peter LeCornu
Let’s start with the agenda of the Evangelical Christian, the moral majority. Their primarily agenda is to have everyone on earth accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, so they will be given everlasting life, instead of roasting in hell fire for eternity.
Forget about abortion. Think of evangelical’s wacky position on embryonic stem cell research, which is using embryonic stem cells — human eggs that are fertilized in vitro — made from eggs that would be thrown away anyway. To evangelicals, this is not moral, using discarded human eggs. This may not be important to you, compared with Darfur, or the World series but people that have a loved one with Parkinson’s or Alzheimer’s find that that evangelical Christians opposing this type of government funding this potentially breakthrough medical research, well, it is just downright frustrating. Because evangelicals have decided embryonic stem cell use is immoral, the government can’t fund it. This even steams Nancy Reagan.
Likewise, evangelicals have decided that that all homosexuality is a sin. Evangelicals see everything as right or wrong, no gray area at all, in their beliefs. Evangelicals have played on the fears of ignorant people, to scare them about homosexuals: 1. That homosexuals are interested in recruiting children to be homosexuals. 2. That homosexuals are sad, hapless, useless people who cannot lead a spiritual life or make it into heaven, unless they renounce all their natural impulses. 3. That homosexuals contribute to the destruction of society. I mentioned before how Dobson’s literature blamed pre-marital sex and unwanted pregnancy on homosexuals, because homosexuals spread a libertine fuckaduck atmosphere in young people. 4. Homosexuals spread disease. It goes on and on, absurd falsehood, half truths and twisted logic. Some of it taken from the propaganda of Nazis against Jews. That gays are attempting to take over Hollywood, or that they have so much money (lots of disposable income since most don’t have children), gays want to take over society, or get special rights and position, out of proportion to their numbers.
The irony of being an evangelical Christian, willing to kill for Jesus and country, or send our military away to do it, and yet embrace a Christian religion where there is a precept to “thou shall not kill†is a profound irony, one of many ironies. To me, Jesus is a great avatar, an example of an ideal human being, and most evangelicals don’t resemble Jesus at all. To me, Jesus would love his enemies, not kill them.
The gay agenda, for gays, is to have equal legal rights with heterosexuals, and not be second class citizens. That means if you have a committed partner, you can get health benefits from an employer and many other benefits, EXACTLY like a straight couple. Heterosexual couples are not discriminated against, even if they don’t have children.
Right now, in most states, a gay couples have to spend thousands on legal fees to draw up documents for inheritance, child custody, and other things that are free for married heterosexual couples.
Visibility in the last few years, for gays, has changed drastically. It was once understood by a majority of society that gays were perverts, who sometimes became hair dressers, killed themselves, or were in the arts.
The thing that infuriates gays, is that as far as we have come, there are still hate crimes against gays, evangelicals who spread all kinds of malarkey about gays. For example, evangelical’s insistence that all gay people choose to be gay, and are actively interested in recruiting children. This is very misleading to some people who don’t know gay people personally. And with gays comprising only 2 to 5% of the population, and not all of them being “out†publicly, it is hard for lots of people to really know a homosexual.
A civilized society, highly cultured, Germany in the 1930’s, chose to rid their society of gays and Jews, by imprisonment and extermination. Why couldn’t it happen here? It could! No matter what strides gays have made in recent decades in the U.S., we always have to be vigilant, a conscious pariah, a real in-your-face noisey bunch of queers.
Asking gays to open their hearts and minds to blatant falsehoods and persecution as Dobson and many other Evangelicals preach, is like asking Jews and gays to open their hearts to Nazis in WWII. Fortunately, there are many Christians, most Christians, some even within the evangelical movement, who don’t hold the same feelings about gays being sinful, like the mainline Evangelical, who we now know, may or may not be on meth.
Likewise, gays have no duty to attempt to understand how straight white men think, because the society in which we were raised, was nearly all straight white men and we know and think like them too much as it is.
When I lived in Colorado Springs, and Focus on the Family started raking in millions, because they sold video tape kits of how the Churches and individuals could fight the scourge of gay rights legislation in their towns, it gave me the creeps. Seriously, this was their big money maker. Focus on the Family, made huge amounts of money for their organization spreading fear of homosexuals, just as Hitler made a bundle by seizing Jewish property and bank accounts. It is preying on a minority’s vulnerability, exploiting the fears of the ignorant masses, and profiting from it. Gay issues are human issues, issues for all humanity.
Christians should be focused on issues of poverty and fairness, and peace and by the latter I mean actual pacifism.
How fair is don’t ask, don’t tell, for gays in the military? Talk about gays not being in anyone’s face…ever consider the double standard of straight male soldiers talking about their girlfriends, going out on dates openly, while gays have to keep such a low profile, and fear being knocked out of the military if they are too public.
Evangelicals do to gays, something similar to what Bush and other Republicans have done to Democrats, in making them hesitant to oppose this this nutty war, and ask the tough questions in a timely manner. Demonizing them. Gays are sick of it. Democrats are sick of it.
Evangelicals, especially Dobson, should focus on their own f’n families. Get their head out of their own theatrical, celebrity-craven butts, and see the light. Stop the meth use and prostitute visiting if they really want to spread the real message of Christ which was one of love and compassion for fellow human beings. With all his status in the evangelical community, Haggard couldn’t manage the few things even an average gay accomplishes, to love and accept himself and not buy meth. For the record, most gays, including myself, have never paid for a prostitute or used meth.
Boy, I really got carried away, and this blog is so far down on Google now, no one will read it anyway. That’s okay. I like to type.
Ron
Peter….I read it and I like what you have to say.
Ron
William Strickland
I read it as well and probably liked it a little less than Ron did but I appreciate your taking the time to write and respond. You raise good points worthy of consideration.
jblock
o boy,
As an evangelical Christian, I am shocked and frustrated by the events that have and are taking place.
To those of you who have lumped the masses of Christians, please open your heart to understand one who loves all of you, Jesus Christ, Ted Haggard and Mike Jones.
God has created an Earth and because of His confidence in Himself, has allowed us to rule over it…knowing that in the end we will turn to worship him because of His obvious love, grace and unbelievable creation.
I am very sorry to all of you for the stances/actions of so many Christian leaders. I accept the truth that Satan will attack the highest and strongest. Without leaders there is not a business, organization or church that will succeed. However, the obvious misconduct…participating in the very actions that are not only sinful, but also the actions that they have stood so strongly against, is awful.
I’m sorry…I pray for you all….the the grace and peace of the Lord Jesus Christ will rest on your homes and families. That you will also see the truth and light amongst the fog and confusion that so many have created.
Peter LeCornu
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1554908,00.html
I really like this Christian leader’s comments (link above) about Dobson re Haggard. It is in TIME, from David Kuo, former #2 of the White House faith-based initiatives program. Before the Haggard incident, I saw Kuo on Charlie Rose, and he seemed like a really sensible guy there, rare among Christians associated with Bush.
Another article in TIME said a White House rep said the presidident would “not instinctively know the name of Ted Haggard,” even though Ted visited the White House twice, once where he had a multi-hour conversation with the President. Also, Haggard used to call the White House weekly, in some kind of conference call — I don’t know how often the president was present at these — since 2003, Haggard was president of the NAE (National Association of Evangelicals) with its 30 million members.
Of course now, everyone from Jerry Falwell to Pat Robertson is claiming that Haggard was a nobody, and they hardly knew who who he was. Haggard has been interviewed by Barbra Walters, profiled in many things on TV, and in small films. I wouldn’t be surprised if James Dobson comes down with Haggard amnesia in a few weeks.
Haggard must’ve been doing lots-o-drugs, to send voice mails to a male prostitute.
I read where many in his 14,000 member New Life Church feel like someone close in their family died, but he isn’t dead so there is not even the release in the finality of it. They’ve got to crank up their fog machine, strike up the rock band, and get back to Jesus? But they don’t have their beloved leader to give them goose bumps not to mention instruct them in voting practices now. Instead, they have Pastor Parsley, some new milquetoast with all the charsima of a dead fish.
Jane Doe
Right wing, left wing….Politics has nothing to do with Christianity no matter what conservatives try to lead u to believe. Its time to seperate Christianity from right wing politics because God did not call us to be republican or democrat…parties and party affiliations are a man made concept that in my opinion has run its course. I just want to see honest God fearing individuals looking out for the needs of the people that they serve. I am sick of politics..its time to start leading America down the right pathway
Jane Doe
Because mister Democrat Bill CLintion claimed to be a God fearing inidividual also but look what he did. SO it has nothing to do with your ideology is has to do with your willingness to follow the Word
jblock
Back again,
Enjoying reading comments that you all have.
Is there anyone who is seeking out who God is here? Anyone who has a question about homosexuality, politics, etc. from a young God fearing man?
I was raised in wealthy home and am now married and living in a poor neighborhood, with the intent of loving and caring for the poor…..with a little girl on the way.
I look forward to engaging gracefully the challenging topics address above.
jblock
Hey folks,
Also I have been to New Life and studied materials that Ted has written.
For those Christians who are out bashing and pledging extortion….be careful. Ted has made some big mistakes. He needs to take responsibility and we need to give him grace and love…..pray for peace for his family and church….and love those who are ever more confused by Christianity.
Don’t stand up and defend him so quickly. This Mike guy has been more right then wrong so far.
Peter LeCornu
The latest comments from NY Times. Yes, there apparently was some sex…
“I am so sorry for the circumstances that have caused shame and embarrassment for all of you,” he said, adding that he had confused the situation by giving inconsistent remarks to reporters denying the scandal.
“The fact is I am guilty of sexual immorality. And I take responsibility for the entire problem. I am a deceiver and a liar. There’s a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I have been warring against it for all of my adult life,” he said.
===============
My comments: The part of his life that was so “repulsive and dark” to most of us, has been the part that has been in the open, opposing gays at every step, backed by the usual “laws” from the old testament, since even in the Bible, Jesus didn’t say anything about gays or homosexuality. So, we have all these Leviticus-spouting maniacs.
Not to mention any younger people, who may happen to be gay, in his own flock, growing up to hate themselves and think they are going to hell, because that is what their Church teaches.
Now Ted will go into an ex-gay program, probably, which will be another circle of hell to be in for years.
If you’re reading this Ted….Run away! Go find a therpist who has experience in helping gay or bi men get over Christian cult programming.
Peter LeCornu
jblock asks:
“Anyone who has a question about homosexuality, politics, etc. from a young God fearing man?”
No, but there’s lots to fear about the idea of a young man having answers to questions about homosexuality, politics or God.
As a grad student professor told me years ago, it is only going for your PhD, that you begin to learn to ask some of the right questions. And that was about something simple, like history.
Clinton’s platform was never marital fidelity. Nor did Clinton ever claim to be a sinless Christian. (Not that Haggard did either.) I like all these people who wish to crucify Clinton for lying and getting a good blowjob between two consenting adults, as Clinton did, and how it is comparable to Bush lying about war intelligence and getting into a war where thousands are killing and being killed because of it.
Not only did Clinton want to lie to avoid embarrassment, like Haggard, unlike Haggard, Clinton had a country to run, and he wanted to get back to important business, and not have this blowjob also suck the life out of the important things in the country. So Clinton’s lie had a lot of nobility in it.
Bible-belting Christians are hypocrites by nature — if they are hard core fundamentalists — because to live by all those rules in Leviticus alone, is enough to bring on a psychotic break. Instead, most don’t live by them. They live by the precepts in the New Testament, but still like the sling the OT crap about homos, the few passages there are.
Clinton was an excellent student with a first rate mind, who tried to apply himself in the majority of his job as President, to the best of his ability. As far as Christians go, I really admire Jimmy Carter, but I also love Clinton. And there are millions of Christians who aren’t as insufferably intolerant and damaging as Dobson, Falwell, and Robertson, who for goodness sake, thought the Venezuelan leader should be assassinated. “Kill for Jesus” is his moto.
Bush was a poor student, a coke-head, who sailed into the presidency on his father’s coat tails and having a very nice personality — and now he may go down in history as the worst president in modern history.
These people comparing Bush’s blowjob to Haggard ranting against the “sin of homosexuality” for years — was much bigger bug up the ass for Dobson — including getting involved in the politics of it.
How much of a sin is homosexuality for Haggard and his ilk? It is on the New Life website that a homosexual who practices gay sex (even if it is with one partner in a totally loving relationship) will burn in Hell for eternity.
This is pretty much standard belief among the fundies.
P.S. There’s no shortage of websites, Church’s, local and national, to help self-hating homos rid themselves of every trace of homosexuality through Jesus. In Colorado Springs, home to 100 Christian orgs, there were ex-gay programs where two guys who ran it once had to leave, because they fell in love.
Thing is, if Haggard, is over 50 now, and all his adult life has been battling these feelings, has not been able to shake it, who can?
Straight people preaching to gays about giving it up are like naturally skinny people trying to help people eat like they do, and they’ll lose weight.
I hope Ted Haggard has set aside some money for himself, and he can write a book about how to kick meth and gay sex.
jblock
Not claiming to have all the answers….certainly don’t hate gays….don’t hate anyone in fact….heart broken about genocide, hypocrisy and greed.
Would love to explain that scripture does not say, nor would Ted Haggard ever say that Homosexuals will go to hell. I promise that. Now folks can mix words, etc. and I am thoroughly embarrassed by Ted….but he would not say nor does he agree to gays are going to hell.
In the midst of so much chaos and uncertainty…that is one thing I am sure of.
Very interesting to hear the comment “Bush being the worst President ever”. I’ve heard that said several times recently and am very concerned at so many of the steps concerning the war, etc….especially as he often times communicates about his decisions being led by God.
Ron
To jblock
I consider Nixon and Bush as the two most damaging presidents in our country’s history. Nixon because he tried to suspended our constitution to retain power after being caught in criminal mischeif and a cover-up. Bush whose misrepresentation of facts has taken us into Iraq and whose “PATRIOT ACT” Nixon would envy . I see the Bush Presidency as his “Theocracy” where he makes terrible decisions and won’t listen to other voices of reason because he is sure he has been appointed by GOD and that makes HIM right. Sounds to me like the Roman Empire near its collapse. I also feel our system is threatened by election fraud in the future. The voice of the people is the last resort we have for beneficial change and if its corrupted then our voice is lost. Last time I felt this much concern was during the Vietnam era when someting called THE SILENT MAJORITY ran the nation.
Peter LeCornu
You know, I was thinking, after reading the Harper’s article on New Life and Haggard’s rise. There was the part about Haggard’s early years in Colorado Springs, how they were concerned with Satanism, in the form of New Age people who use crystals to heal. That is what Harper’s mentions. At the time, in Colorado Springs newspapers, I recall vaguely some hubbub involving an animal sacrifice among a supposed Satanic group, uncovered by evangelicals. But it was never substantiated. I could just as well have been some sadistic kid who killed a few people’s cats, in one neighborhood. Most of the New Age in the area, was centered around life-affirming astrology, crystal healing and whatever, which of course evangelicals consider to be the very essence of Satan worship and the work of the Devil. And even that was not out of proportion to any city the size of Colorado Springs.
Haggard and some members of his early flock used to pray over certain houses where they believed these Satanists lived. Just conjecture, but they probably selected these people because they had a tattoo or piercing or into the goth look, or worked at a crystal store. This is the late 1980’s when such things weren’t as common as they are today. Anyway, they would pray over these people’s houses and, then, the people would sometimes move away. Get jobs as prostitutes or meth salesman in Denver perhaps?
God hears and answers prayer.
EXCEPT, the article doesn’t mention how when Reagan’s STAR WARS program went from funding of billions to cut completely, the 3 major military installations (Falcon AFB, Peterson AFB and Ft. Carson…also the AFA) which were centers for this research and provided thousands of military and non-military jobs at all levels, fell on hard times, with many job cuts, and thousands of people foreclosed on their mortgages, and had to move away anyway.
There were all kinds of vacant strip malls and inexpensive houses for sale by 1989 because of the exodous. Interest rates were high then though, over 12%. Haggard arrived in 1985, and rose to power in the early 1990’s.
What I’m saying is even if you did nothing, or picked buggers and put them in a pumpkin patch, or whatever, the chances were good people would move out of their houses, because a lot of people were moving. The article also mentions how there was high crime in Colorado Springs in the late 80‘s, higher than NYC, until the dozens of Christian organizations started to move in. Again, the article doesn’t mention that the economic devastation for the city, when even IBM went under at that time, was enough to have caused the crime wave. People couldn‘t pay the rent, or were actually losing houses they couldn‘t sell or pay the mortgage on. The gradual economic recovery in the 1990’s, coincided with the establishment of the over 100 Christian organizations that moved in. They had something to do with the economic recovery — the Christian groups — but the area would have recovered without them. It is the second largest city in Colorado and in a beautiful natural setting. Granted, these groups probably didn’t contribute to robberies and that type of crime. Like Haggard, Christians probably tend to be more responsible meth buyers, and they only buy it if they have the money. They have their standards.
Anyway, I was wondering if now maybe the New Age people have gathered together to try to heal the flock at New Life, who are certainly hurting. (I’m not New Age, but I like the intentional healing and more positive stuff they do.) For the Evangelical Christian, new age healing with crystals is every bit as horrific as just about anything else. They don’t even distinguish like they do with homosexuality:
Okay to feel gay, just NEVER EVER do it. Or, they don’t distinguish between a psychopathic pedophile who has a dozen kids buried under his house, and a loving lesbian couple who is raising one of the couple’s children in a loving home. As long as it is gay loving, it is SATANIC with them. In fact, as I’ve written before, they are more theatened by a gay loving couple, than a gay person who has some other criminal pathology.
Among Haggard’s own flock, do you think there is going to be any laying-on-of-hands in the prayer tower (or whatever the 24/7 prayer room is called there), in the way of exorcising the gay meth-buying demons? Then there have to work on his lying/deceiving demon. But maybe that fled after he managed to tell a partial truth.
Was there any cell group there at New Life using mushrooms in their rituals I need to know about?
I have some experience, in the fall from grace of a popular evangelist, in that some of my family members owned time shares in the Jim & Tammy Bakker’s bogus PTL Hotel resort complex. And an even closer family member used to watch Jimmy Swaggart weekly, and weep every time he did. I thought Jimmy’s weeping was the most patently fake display of emotion I’ve ever seen from an evangelist, and embarrassing. Odd, I wouldn’t feel the least uncomfortable, if I were ill, to have someone praying to Jesus that I would get well. I guess I have a certain standards about such things.
For those of you too young to remember, Jimmy sobbed a lot, for a variety of reasons (sin, needed mo’ money, just for the hell of it), and women, especially, loved it. It meant he was “in the spirit.†(When you are in the spirit, you not only speak in tongues, receive word of knowledge, heal, and have visions, and spread the Word via TV, but the spirit caused Swaggart to talk fast and weep a lot I guess.) He didn’t love the old women who loved him though. He liked more kinky things, with prostitutes. They were silly kinky things, not real kinky things. I forget the details. Anyway, what happens when Evangelicals lose their favorite evangelist, or are even deceived, lied to, or lose money? Well, in the case of my family, the one who lost thousands of dollars was pissed! They still kept their eyes on Jesus, but they were really really pissed at Jim Bakker.
My closer relative had given thousands to Jim Bakker over the years, but she thought it was well-spent. Didn’t phase her at all that Bakker fell (gay massage scandal but it was mostly about financial irregularities) and she just moved on follow other preachers.
That brings up a point though. You can do that, when you are primarily into televangelism, and your local Church isn’t one like New Life.
But, with New Life, what do they do. I mean do they wander the halls praying to exorcise homo demons, or just what do they do? Haggard is not just a member. He was their founder, spiritual leader. He was a lot.
All the women who used to day dream about having a spiritual romance with Pastor Haggard, or have their family life be just like his, or their huband be just like him. All the guys that wanted to be just like him. How can they look at him now and not see him in the throes of some meth fueled orgy with another man, if only in their mind‘s eye.
It is really hard to find a truly Charismatic Christian Pastor, a replacement, who has the “powers,†appearance, charisma, oratorical ability, a healing gift would be great — to lead a flock of 14,000 people, when they have grown up with, and have been so “conditioned†to Pastor Haggard.
Did Haggard slay people in the spirit during services? I guess maybe if I search for that I could find it. That is where the pastor places his land on or near a person and they fall back, slain in the spirit.
There are problems in finding a good pastor. If the pastor is good looking and straight, chances are good he’ll be having affairs with women in the congregation, or into prostitution. Or, he’ll be into one of the other seven deadly sins.
Someone even remotely like Gandhi or Jesus, that high a spiritual level, they come around only every thousand years or so. Yet, they are the only ones with enough wisdom and humility to lead a humongous group of people and make it stick beyond their deaths. Even decades and centuries after their deaths, these people are never forgotten, for their enormous wisdom and compassion. Do you see Jerry Falwell in the group?
You take these people like Falwell, Robertson, Bakker, Limbaugh…they may start out okay, but as their flock grows, they tend to head right off the railroad track into a ditch. Do you know what I mean? It’s the power, the celebrity, the money, a kind of mania. Who knows what it is.
I’ve known evangelical Christians who are obsessed with the Rapture. Even at my most evangelical — which wasn’t very — I knew that odds were very large I’d be “going by the grave.†I have a worry in the back of my mind that Robertson, for example, is in the group that would like to hasten world wide nuclear Holocaust, so he won’t have to go by the grave. Bring on end times, so he can experience the Rapture. He’ll pretend it is the Rapture, as the nuke lands in his state.
In the early 1990’s, I read in a Summit Ministries tract, written by a PhD in Sociology from the University of the Pacifica Cuckoo Clock School of Theology (or something like that) who said:
“The average homosexual has sexual contact with over one thousand different partners in a year.â€
Similar to Jews in Germany before the Holocaust, false propaganda was written about them, but they thought it was too ridiculous, unreal, that eventually this mania would pass. I did not think it was something that will necessarily pass or should be uncontested. I told everyone I knew, who knew I was gay, Christian or pagan, that this was not true. The real average contacts per year is probably more like 5, with the percentage of gays having 1000 contacts a year falling below the .01% level.
So, to see a hypocrite like Haggard fall, the seemingly ideal successful leader husband with five kids, 14,000 followers, lots of money. It is just too much. I’ve read over 100 articles about it and I’m still trying to find some meaning in it, or to understand it better.
Some people may think I’m out to make fun of Christians. I’m not. In fact, I think Jesus is absolutely fabulous! And there are millions of Christians of all different sects, who are loving and lead wonderful lives, and who don’t think homosexuality is wrong or bad.
I’m curious about Haggard’s net worth. Does he have enough to leave with a suitcase of cash for Mykonos if he wanted to? I suspect that New Life really had a fairly good grip on their financial holdings. From what I’ve read, New Life was extremely structured in other ways, and I assume that extended to finances.
Straight Christians don’t understand about the supposed “choice†gay people make. The only choice is to accept ourselves for what we are, which is gay, or to resist it, like Haggard.
And, on the surface, Ted’s story was not as unintelligible to us as it is to his followers. That is, a gay or bi man, hates the gay aspect of himself, and sets out to rectify it by hating the sin in others. And instead of seeking a loving gay relationship, he sought to combine his with meth, to avoid it and destroy himself. It was his cry for help.
Unfortunately, when you wait to deal with this conflict, after marrying, and having five kids, and starting a Church with 14,000 followers, things get really complicated. I did my crying when I was 21 years old, and it was as personal and non-damaging to another human being as it could be.
Evangelists are all known for pouring their absolute heart out, about the Truth and Life (Jesus) yet when it comes to expressing what is really going on inside them, they are worse than the rest of us, your average hypocrites.
This morning I read about the Republican’s blitz of automated phone calls before the election. What is the Number one issue they are scaring people with. Gay marriage!
You would think that with Will & Grace, and the other dozens of fun gay people, like Ellen, that people wouldn’t be so damn afraid of gays, but they are. Or, that Evangelicals would realize gays are JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. There are good and bad, and everything between in any group of people. Not all Americans are good, French are bad.
I read the Haggard website, and I swear they removed the section on homosexuality from the “What I believe” page. I don’t know, maybe I imagined it. Or, I could have read it on a page where Haggard was answering questions in a format. It didn’t say gays were going to roast in hell. It said that gays who did not give up gay sex, would not gain entrance to the Kingdom of Heaven.
Even with the dancing, fog machines, and rock music in their services, I don’t think New Life or any Evangelical church is loving and open about welcoming happy, practicing homosexuals into their fold, UNLESS, they are interested in going straight or refraining from gay sex.
Peter LeCornu
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/lifestyle/religion/article_1218843.php/Outside_View_Scripture_little_help_for_Haggard%60s_sex_addiction
In case this above link doesn’t work because it is too long, below is entire article, I thought was incredibly articulate and some of my thoughts I’ve been stumbling around with, like the lack of real TRUTH in Evangelical Christians:
Copyright 2006 by United Press International
CINCINNATI, OH, United States (UPI) — Getting laid is one of the most awkward topics evangelical Christians face. Yes, there are oodles of books written by evangelical sex-perts who explain that God`s plan for monogamous, heterosexual, married sex is the best design, and that pleasure and joy follow. (Hey, it`s worked for me.)
But these promises don`t sustain many evangelical leaders or even some of the faithful when they face temptation. (See my blog for a list of those who`ve fallen into sexual sin in the last 25 years. The list is long.) Clearly prayer, accountability, preaching and discipleship don`t automatically lead to upright sex lives. Instead, secret sexual indulgence plagues many believers.
Ted Haggard is the latest ‘man of God’ to take a disastrous fall. He resigned his post as president of the National Association of Evangelicals (30 million strong), and was forced to hand over his 14,000 member church to an interim pastor when an independent investigation exposed his lies to the media and revealed that he paid for gay sex, in addition to using illicit drugs.
So what do we make of Ted Haggard and this monstrous mess? Let`s be clear about it. Ted can`t claim that he fell in love and was hiding his true identity as a gay man. We can`t insert him into the Brokeback Mountain tragedy and wish he and his lover were free to be who they are, married and happy, living on a ranch, herding sheep.
Nope.
We have to face the blinding naked truth. Haggard, a married man and father of five, made monthly treks for three years to Denver where he paid for gay sex with a male prostitute while high on crystal meth.
Whoa!
This is the same man who opposes the right of homosexuals to marry — you know, to live in the monogamous committed company of a lover and friend, and to enjoy the benefits that go with making that singular commitment – a commitment Ted was incapable of keeping with his own wife.
Evangelical Christianity lays a trap for its leaders and sincere followers. People who struggle with sexual identity and promiscuity are drawn to a format of faith that promises them help and relief from the oppression of the cycle of ‘guilt, white-knuckling, lapse, self-flagellation, repentance, forgiveness, guilt, white-knuckling and relapse-again.’
Evangelicals believe that the key to a holy life that witnesses to the power of the Holy Spirit (and therefore leads non-Christians to Christ) is being morally superior to others. I know that sounds harsh but hear me out. Sure evangelicals would be the first to say that we are all sinners, but they do count on a ‘redemption and lift’ experience to follow conversion. They don`t expect a gay man to stay gay after he`s come to Christ. They don`t want a drug addict to keep using after he`s been baptized. The power of the Holy Spirit living within is supposed to change all that — God is supposed to make Christians into better people, better than the average non-Christian.
In fact, evangelicals have positioned themselves to be society`s moral gatekeepers who will protect all the rest of us from sliding down the muddy chute to hell.
This is why when Ted Haggard`s ongoing sexual obsession is revealed — shock, disbelief and denial follow. Those of us who are, or have been, evangelicals feel betrayed — both by the fallen leader, but also by the promise of the Holy Spirit`s help that failed.
It`s true that lots of Christians struggle with gossip, overeating and overspending. These sins, though, aren`t scorned. They`re treated as besetting sins that need accountability or a Christian program for recovery. Sexual sin, and particularly homosexual behavior, must be eradicated.
Is it any wonder that those who are most addicted to acting out sexually (illicit sex, homosexuality, pornography, seduction, extra-marital affairs, fornication) would seek safety in a belief system and community that promised divine deliverance?
One of the more revelatory experiences I`ve had in the last year came through a discussion forum for the gay community. Over and over again, sincere men and women struggling with guilt about homosexual feelings reported that they converted to Christianity and joined churches to be freed from their ‘sin.’
They followed the advice to pray, to read the Bible, to be accountable, to undergo soaking prayer for healing, to confess their sins. Instead, many found themselves trapped in a vortex of unrelenting sexual cravings, despite following the advice that was supposed to release the Holy Spirit`s activity into their lives to deliver them.
Haggard confirms this experience in his apology letter to his congregation:
‘For extended periods of time, I would enjoy victory and rejoice in freedom. Then, from time to time, the dirt that I thought was gone would resurface, and I would find myself thinking thoughts and experiencing desires that were contrary to everything I believe and teach.
Through the years, I`ve sought assistance in a variety of ways, with none of them proving to be effective in me.’
When does the evangelical church admit that they don`t have answers for sexual addiction, perversion or homosexual inclinations?
The evangelical church needs to be honest and admit that prayer, accountability, Bible study, preaching from the pulpit and exorcising demons does not guarantee the end of sexual addiction or sexual sin for many people. What if the church said that much? What if evangelicals admitted that breaking bad sex habits is beyond the scope of its ability and is not a promise in Scripture?
Instead the church ought to advertise what it is best at: coming together to share our lives in community — to care for each other when we`re sick, to pray for one another, to offer help when someone has a baby, to give food to the poor… What if someone said, ‘I`m struggling with sin,’ and the church said, ‘We can`t promise you that you`ll change, but we can offer you a place where you`ll make friends and find meaningful work to do in spite of your struggles?’
When people say that Haggard should have been more honest with himself, I want to say that evangelical theology is guilty for his dishonesty. The promises are lies. They make a mockery of leaders who depend on the promises and find no relief. What else does a pastor do but lie when the practices he preaches don`t work for him?
Christianity does not cure addiction. Christians are forgiven for sin. More importantly, Christianity is a pathway to community and caring in spite of sin. Honestly, a caring community is worth a lot in this postmodern fragmented world. Nothing to sneeze at!
If evangelicals started with the humble truth, they might not have so many sick people joining up in desperation hoping to find a magical cure for what they do in secret. In fact, the church might then become that sacred space where all are welcome, where honesty is valued and where some are helped, too.
(Next week`s column will return to my series on black theology.)
Copyright 2006 by United Press International
jblock
Boy there’s a lot there.
First, not trying to defend Ted Haggard as again it is quite obvious that so far Ted has lied a lot and Mike has not. However, I feel like there is a drastic shift that many of you are taking in 2 areas.
1. No on has shown that he had gay sex for three years and used meth. The board found that he was guilty of sexually immoral conduct. He also has at least bought drugs and most likely used them. These are the facts we know.
2. The tie between what Christians believe is wrong and “satanic” is misconstrued.
I believe that God created the world in a certain way that life will be better if we follow His rules. Kind of like me building a ferris wheel and you trying to ride it backwards.
Then of course the questions come about no one can do everything right all the time. There are so many rules….what makes being gay worse then looking at porn or being greedy, etc.
Ah….this is where the problems begin.
God sent his only son, Jesus Christ to forgive us of all our sins. To say that people having gay sex when they die will go to hell is crazy. What about those practicing heterosexuality outside of marriage or having an affair or cheating on their taxes.
God knows our heart….He has created us and knows what our strengths and weaknesses are, what tempts us and gets us down.
Ultimately, the challenging concept is that so much of this is faith. You can’t say, “Ted believes the same thing you do and he’s a liar, so Christianity is no good”. Jesus was the only perfect human….a sacrifice for all of mankind.
Taste and see that the Lord is good….His love endures forever.
He’s asking you here in Scripture to test him….get to know him….He’s gentle, strong, graceful, loving, kind and vengeant.
Have a great day!
Will, Ireland
The people here who wrote that its “all lies†(especially you, Candice No14, with your beautifully crafted argument of logic in block capitals), you must all have the IQ of a potato? How blind and stupid can people be???
I love the confession that this twat Ted made about his fighting this “battle†all his adult life…. Looks like to me he was bloody well losing that battle, and doing a top rate job of losing too! I doubt many of the homosexuals he repeatedly condemned would leave their partner and children to have a 3 year affair a prostitute and adopt a drug habit! Looks like most gay people are less sinful that our “beautiful” Ted.
Typical case of closet gay who has “issues†with his “sinâ€, so he potters off to get a prostitute to help overcome it, while pontificating on the pulpit about the evil gays! Classic. What a pathetic hypocrite his man is… if he had any backbone at all, or intelligence, he would be able to come to terms with what he is rather than this lame attempt to live a lie. With a bit of luck he’ll kill himself now…. No loss to humanity if he does.