Just after the Mormon Church’s historian Elder Marlin K. Jensen, a member of LDS’ leadership council the General Authorities, got done apologizing for the group’s involvement in hurting gays by pushing through Prop 8, LDS leader Boyd K. Packer told Sunday’s General Conference nothing is going to change regarding its position on Prop 8 and same-sex marriage.
“To the full extent of my capacity, I say that I am sorry,” Jensen told an audience of straight and gay Mormons late last month. “I know that many very good people have been deeply hurt, and I know that the Lord expects better of us.” As Religion Dispatches noted:
Within a few days, news of the historic meeting and Jensen’s apology zoomed by email, text message, Facebook, and blog across Mormon networks from Oakland to Salt Lake City to Southern California and then to points throughout the Book of Mormon-belt and beyond.
Some received the news of Jensen’s apology as an answer to prayers. Others hoped that it might serve as an occasion for renewed reflection among Mormons over what exactly happened in the fall of 2008, when entire congregations were mobilized as precinct-walkers and phonebankers in the service of a political strategy that portrayed gay and lesbian civil marriage rights as a threat to religious freedom and “traditional” families.
Heh. It was none of those things, because that sentiment was lost on Packer, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, completely: “There are those today who’d not only tolerate but advocate voting to change laws that would legalize immorality.”
That’s because homosexuality is not, according to Packer, “inborn.” After all: “Why would our heavenly father do that to anyone? … A law against nature would be impossible to enforce. Do you think a vote to repeal the law of gravity would do any good?”
How about we take this to the next level?
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PLAYS WELL WITH OTHERS
And why oh why would the supposdly good lord create a hatefull pandering vile bigoted scumbag like you, Packer????
Cynthia Lee
Why oh why am I a non christian required to live by christian law?
Cam
Why would the Mormons heavenly father order to to follow policies that would put you at odds with the world. Polygomy, hatred and exclusion of other races, etc… And then why would the Mormons ignore and change those policies just to fit in with the world at large?
Bobby in Seattle
Frankly, I’m damn sick of these types telling me I was not born gay! I NEVER HAD A CHOICE. I’m as much gay as I am left handed, blue eyed and blonde haired. PERIOD.
I’m 40 years old and have never slept with a woman, and even putting a gun to my head wouldn’t achieve getting me to do so. I’m sick of them telling me they know me better than I know my self. I wished they’d just shut up about it, already.
MrNirom
Go get your bible.. turn to Matt 10:34-39
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth:
I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father,
and the daughter against her mother,
and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me:
and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
God’s ways are not man’s ways!
AFV
Breaking News: God is a man made fairy tale and Gay people are real.
Cam
@MrNirom:
Then the men at the top of the Mormon church who claim to speak for God are obviously liars.
Geoff M
@Bobby in Seattle: Amen! kIt sure seems like we’re hearing a lot more of the argument “they weren’t born that way” which absolutely floors me too. How could they possibly claim that since they’re not gay? Un r e a l.
Enron
Maybe his interpretation is the incorrect one. Why do we exist, why do we die, why animals die, why can’t they speak perfect English, why is there a universe, why are there other inhabitable planets? Why have religions, especially Christianity throughout history been the main root cause of violence and war? Why did racism exist, why does a particular race find the other inferior?
Why is there still poverty, why are there viruses and diseases, why do we get old? With questions like these and there are way more complex ones, why are we wasting time on the fact that two men or women can find each other attractive and love each other just as a natural state of being just like any woman and man can? Why is sexuality so over-prioritized by Christians? There are over over 6 billion people on this planet, we are not running out of human beings anytime soon if that is the fear of the LDS. Even if a portion of the human population was wiped out, it won’t be a cause of “the gays”. Dictators, natural disasters, war and violence are doing a good enough job at that already.
I think we need to stop using G od as a scapegoat to persecute, discriminate and hate people for no reason?
MrNirom
@Cam: A statement with nothing to support it. Explain!
Stenar
First of all, Boyd K Packer has long been suspected by many people of being a homosexual. So, when he says it can be overcome, he’s referring to his 70+ years of repressing his own homosexuality, which isn’t really the same as changing one’s sexuality.
Second, Jensen is a very low-level general authority, so when he apologized for Prop. 8, he wasn’t speaking on behalf of the church. People shouldn’t have made such a big deal over his apology.
MrNirom
@Enron: It is simple. There are two opposing forces. God. Satan. Good. Evil. Right. Wrong. No matter how you look at it.. you can not support both sides no matter how far you bury your head in the sand. Either you are with God.. or you are not. There is no middle ground. There is no fence sitting. There is moral.. and there is immoral. God’s laws are moral and eternal. They are the laws he set up for man kind. The behavior of mankind is what breaks the laws of God.
One can not say “I worship and obey God” and then approved of homosexual behavior. They oppose each other. And certainly to vote that homosexual behavior be legitimized in no way makes it legitimate in God’s eyes. It is in direct conflict and opposition to God’s laws.
So while some will give so much credit to mankind and none to God.. the truth is that we will all die and stand face to face with God at his judgment bar. And what you do on this earth.. will make a difference in your next life. So if you choose not to follow God’s laws.. then the consequences will be yours. But do not drag me down with you.. nor ask me to side with you. As the prophet Joshua stated: “For me and my house.. we will serve the Lord.”
MrNirom
@Stenar: Feeling homosexual is not the sin. Acting on it is.
Just because Jensen apologized to Mormon’s for the hurt it caused them.. does not mean that the involvement of the Church was wrong. God’s laws are still God’s laws… no matter how people “feel” about it.
Geoff M
@MrNirom: Your arguments are based on the supposition that the bible or perhaps the book of mormon is the word of God. Not everyone on the planet or time memoriam subscribes to that so called ‘truth’. And even if it’s your ‘personal testimony’..you can’t actually prove a thing. Nice try though.
Soupy
The Muslim faith has different “God’s laws”. I’m guessing that you assume that theirs are wrong and yours are right?
insalah
@MrNirom – Troll! Don’t you have better things to do?
MrNirom
@insalah: LOL
MrNirom
@Soupy: What does God’s laws say about homosexual behavior in the Muslim faith?
MrNirom
@Geoff M: Your non belief does not make your statement true either. But this I can say.. we can’t both be right.
Geoff M
My “non belief”? lol…typical. I believe, just not under your framework. My problem is with religious know-it-alls such as you appear to be making judgements about the rest of us when you know absolutely nothing.
In other words…take your vitriol elsewhere before someone drops a house on you too.
Eryn Wade
when i read this it makes me think of Lily Allen’s F**k You song
MrNirom
@Geoff M: Who would drop a house on me? LOL
So what framework are you built under?
This much I do know and a prophet of God so stated it: “…the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.”
ach1959
Most religions have a certain commonality. Many beliefs or doctrines overlap. Your comment is a very broad statement that since Muslims disapprove of homosexuality and so do Mormons, than they are the same. But since Mormons claim Muslims are wrong,Mormons are claiming themselves wrong. Your argument is weak!
Also the title of this article is wrong in attemt to illicit a strong response. Elder Packer did not say or qoute the title of this article, “Why would Heavenly Father make anyone a fag?” You may not agree what was said, but you should at least hear how it was said!
Geoff M
@MrNirom: Yeah, that was an attempt at humor, sorry you couldn’t grasp it.
Isn’t it a bit funny that your church doesn’t believe in the infallability of the Bible? You know…that it was ‘translated incorrectly’ etc? So what makes you so confident in raising specific bible passages as proof of condemnation against homosexuals? Is it a lame attempt at assuaging your self hatred to make you feel less guilty yourself?
Further, you’re still missing the point that you don’t know anything for a fact…so I would propose since you really don’t know ….anything….for a fact…..go ahead and revel in your little beliefs and leave the rest of the world alone.
PLAYS WELL WITH OTHERS
@MrNirom: Sorry, Mr. Nimrod, Your whole argument if shot to shit. Because if you believe that God creates all his creatures, then guess what???? When he created me and the millions of others, he created a whole bunch ‘o Gay creatures!!
What he did not create was hatefull vile bigots who spew their hatred on Gays. You guys did that all by yourselves………
Mike C
Not all Mormons have the same views as Elder Packer and MrNirom. I’ve been Mormon all my life, served a mission in Guatemala, married in the temple. After getting to know some gay people, and seeing good gay Mormon people say that they were born gay and they don’t change, and that they don’t want to change and are happy with who they are. After those experiences I now believe that being gay is not a choice, and is not something to be ashamed of. I didn’t like Elder Packers comments, as far as I’m concerned, what he said is his (incorrect) opinion.
MrNirom
@PLAYS WELL WITH OTHERS: No.. I don’t believe that God “created” us in the sense you do. You can “believe” you are gay… I don’t have to though. You can “believe” whatever your little heart desires. 🙂
MrNirom
@Geoff M: Why is it when someone doesn’t agree with the homosexual lifestyle.. they become “haters”? Because I want the definition of marriage.. the word marriage.. to mean something that is separate from the gay world.. not to be included with it.. I become the hater? LOL The word marriage is the relationship that happens between a man and woman. Garriage is the relationship that happens between a man and a man or woman and a woman. People will go and commit sin from now until this world is done and it too passes away… and neither I nor God will keep you from doing it. But we still will try to get you to open your eyes and heart and repent. But it is still your choice.
And whether or not one is “born” gay or not is still up for debate and really doesn’t matter. The sin is NOT being gay, or thinking your gay, or saying your gay, or believing your gay. The sin is acting on the sexual behavior. That is the sin. Nothing more… nothing less. That is not hate.
Geoff M
Gee, did I hit a nerve? It is so incredibly sad you cant see the idiocy of your faulty logic. You are the hater mr nirom and have quite a trail on the web and youtube of spreading your destruction. People like you who clothe yourself in religious superiority are the reason the world is in the shape it’s in. You are brothers with all extremists though you won’t see that. So…again, subscribe to your errant beliefs of which you cannot prove and return to your mother’s basement until sunday. You aren’t opening anyones eyes, spreading love or conviction. THAT is my personal testimony to you.
PLAYS WELL WITH OTHERS
Isn’t it always interesting that whenever there is a thread having to do with the moron church suddenly folks who never once appeared on Queertyland all of a sudden out of nowhere find this site????????
Cassandra
MrNirom
“There is moral.. and there is immoral. God’s laws are moral and eternal. They are the laws he set up for man kind. The behavior of mankind is what breaks the laws of God.”
In Judeo/Christian theology, the root of God’s laws is justice. The Law of Love that Jesus articulated: “love God with your entire self and love your neighbor as your self” expresses this, justice is the foundation of God’s law.
“One can not say “I worship and obey God” and then approved of homosexual behavior. They oppose each other.”
No. Actually, many people do say “I worship and obey God” and approve of homosexual behavior. It is possible, so your statement is fantasy. You are confusing your beliefs with what is possible.
Second, homosexual lovemaking does not oppose worshiping and obey God. Maybe it opposes worshiping and obeying your personal vision of God, but that is a very different thing.
However, injustice intrinsically is in opposition to obedience to God. Anyone who creates injustice, including the LDS, is in disobedience to God, no matter what their reasoning is.
Same-sex lovemaking does not create injustice, it is not disobedience to God’s law, but to rather, to the laws of some disobedient, injustice creating, fallible humans.
“And certainly to vote that homosexual behavior be legitimized in no way makes it legitimate in God’s eyes.”
Of course, but the opposite it true – all the ranting from homophobes like yourself will never make homosexual intercourse, or homosexuality itself, truly sin. Meanwhile, each rant, each attempt to vilify GLBTQ people into suicide, that you and your peers engage is, is sin.
“It is in direct conflict and opposition to God’s laws.”
No. Homosexuality is, at worst, in conflict and opposition to some people’s laws.
“And what you do on this earth.. will make a difference in your next life.”
And you create and endorse injustice, though God states that there are three things He requires: seek justice, love kindness, walk humbly with God. You are failing all three – how do you suppose that will make a difference in your next life?
“But do not drag me down with you.. nor ask me to side with you.”
You are welcome to continue to reject justice and disobey God’s law by persecuting and slandering millions of people. We are free to continue to ask you to repent of your many sins against us.
“As the prophet Joshua stated: “For me and my house.. we will serve the Lord.” ”
Perhaps you should live that more before you quote it.
“Feeling homosexual is not the sin. Acting on it is.”
No. That is heresy on two levels.
First, Christ was quite clear that even thinking of committing a sin – murder, adultery, slander, was sin as much as acting on it. Second, love-making between two people of the same gender is not sin. But characterizing it as sin is the product of pride in your heterosexuality, and pride is sin. And your characterization creates injustice, which is sin. It causes you to tell lies, which is sin.
Do you understand yet that it is your behavior that is sinful?
“This much I do know and a prophet of God so stated it: “…the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.”
It always amuses me when homophobes cite this, or similar statements, because they are acting out of guilt. All of your remarks about homosexuality come from guilt. You are sinning against God, and man, by creating injustice, by treating some people as intrinsically inferior to yourself – which is pride taken to a horrific extreme. But rather than repent of your pride, which manifests at least in the belief that your heterosexuality makes you superior, you exalt it and use it to harm other people.
The guilt of that disobedience drives you to make excuses, and realizing it, you pretend we are the one excusing injustice, slander, murder, and hate.
“No.. I don’t believe that God “created” us in the sense you do. You can “believe” you are gay… I don’t have to though. You can “believe” whatever your little heart desires. :-)”
Here’s the fundamental immorality of homophobia. Out of pride, MrNirom, you refuse to believe GLBTQ people when we speak the truth about our lives, yet, here you are, expecting people to believe your testimony about God. Yet your testimony is only as trustworthy as you are willing to believe the testimony of others. You refuse to believe us, yet expect not only to believed, but expect us to destroy our lives and relationships in obedience to you.
That is pride, not the healthy self-esteem, but the sin of believing that you are intrinsically superior to other people to such an extent that you have authority over them and the ability to judge them.
As Jesus said, “why do you look at the speck in the eyes of others, when there is a log in your own eye?” Get the log of pride and injustice out of your eye, before you take another theological peep into other people’s bedrooms.
Please, repent.
Cassandra
“Why is it when someone doesn’t agree with the homosexual lifestyle.. they become “haters”?”
It is the nature of injustice and prejudice, one of God’s natural laws. Injustice and prejudice spring from hate which is the ugly side of the sin of pride.
Since the consequences of your position on GLBTQ people’s lives is discrimination, persecution, verbal abuse, to the point of destroying GLBTQ people, it is only honest to acknowledge that hate is the emotion that drives your position.
Those who malign GLBTQ people are seen as haters because their actions, statements and beliefs express hate. Even your characterization of our lives as ‘the homosexual lifestyle’ is an expression of hate, and of course, the sin of pride.
“Because I want the definition of marriage.. the word marriage.. to mean something that is separate from the gay world.. not to be included with it.. I become the hater?”
Yes, because you are willing to harm millions of people to have your way in their lives as well as their own. Such terrible pride, to think that your petty wants are sufficient to justify harming millions of human beings. It is truly terrible that you cannot see how utterly evil your arguments are.
It is not that you are made a hater by your beliefs, but rather, that you hate people first, and create beliefs like ‘homosexual acts are sin’ to excuse your hate.
“LOL The word marriage is the relationship that happens between a man and woman.”
No. That is one of the many meanings. You and your peers in pride have already lost the word marriage, the moment homophobes used it to describe same-sex couples. You and your peers are fighting over the civil contract. You pretend it is about the word because you are creating injustice and need an excuse.
“People will go and commit sin from now until this world is done and it too passes away… ”
So shouldn’t you, who are caught in the sin of pride and create injustice, be minding the sin in your own life? Oh, wait, that’s a lot harder than screeching condemnations of others, isn’t it? God wouldn’t want you to do what is hard, like becoming a justice, loving, humble person, would He? So you took the easy road of pride and hate.
“and neither I nor God will keep you from doing it.”
Interesting example of pride, there, suggesting that you are God’s equal.
“But we still will try to get you to open your eyes and heart and repent. But it is still your choice.”
More of that prideful image of you as God’s co-equal.
“And whether or not one is “born” gay or not is still up for debate”
No. The testimony of GLBTQ people about their own lives is not justly subject to debate, your pride leads you to believe you have a say in our experiences or are qualified to debate – to challenge – our testimony about something you do not, presumably, experience. Pride is the sin said to have caused satan to fall, it is the sin the serpent evoked in Eve, and it is the foundation of your anti-gay theology.
“and really doesn’t matter.”
The truth matters to just and honest people, but doesn’t matter to deceitful oppressors.
“The sin is NOT being gay, or thinking your gay, or saying your gay, or believing your gay. The sin is acting on the sexual behavior. That is the sin.”
No. I’ve covered this before, so I won’t repeat myself.
“Nothing more… nothing less. That is not hate.”
Of course it is. You are demanding that millions of human beings live their entire lives without the love and intimacy of a unitive, sexual, relationship – not because they chose to, but out of deference to your pride and ego. Not because they would create injustice, or harm people, or fail to love God or others, but out of deference to your ego and pride.
Your willingness to oppress others and harm them is a manifestation of hate and pride.
Please, repent.
MrNirom
@Cassandra said: In Judeo/Christian theology, the root of God’s laws is justice???
No Cassandra.. the result of disobeying the law is Justice. So your whole premise that the root of the law is justice is quite faulty and in itself is an injustice. But hey.. believe what you want… justify it any way you want.
“many people do say “I worship and obey God” and approve of homosexual behavior.”
Yes Cassandra they do.. and they are hypocrites.
Your whole line of thinking is more in line with the way Satan uses tactics to convert mankind to his ways. It is you dear sister who needs to repent.
MrNirom
@Geoff M: Yes Geoff.. me calling good.. evil and evil.. good only puts me in the same stew pot as you. Thanks.. but no thanks.
Geoff M
@MrNirom: So when faced with logic…you resort to that. Speaks well of your ilk.
Geoff M
@Cassandra: Cassandra that was laid out beautifully.
Samwise
Cassandra: You are awesome beyond awesomeness.
MrNirom: A long, long time ago, very faithful Christians said that God’s will was for all people of African descent to be enslaved. They had Bible verses that proved, clear as day, that God desired slavery: Exodus 21:2-6. Exodus 21:20-21. Ephesians 6:5-6. 1 Timothy 6:1-5. Titus 2:9-10. 1 Peter 2:18-29.
Then a bunch of crazy Quaker abolitionists came in and said, “But what about the story of Exodus? What about Jesus’s commands to love one another? Clearly, slavery is cruel and un-Christian!” And the respectable, pro-slavery Christians said that they were heretics and not real Christians, and obviously God wanted slavery and to do away with slavery would be to reject God.
Fast-forward a couple centuries, and now all those verses about slaves are not interpreted differently, with a nuanced understanding of the time and place in which they were written. Because as it turns out, the “heretical” abolitionists were right.
A little later, very faithful Christians said that God’s will was for the races to live apart. They had Bible verses that proved, clear as day, that God desired segregation: Genesis 1:24. Genesis 11:9. Leviticus 19:19. Ezra 9:2. Corinthians 6:14.
Then a bunch of crazy African-American Christians came in (along with their damned white liberal allies) and said that integration and interracial marriage were a-OK – in fact, the injustice of segregation was itself opposed to Christianity. And the respectable, pro-segregation Christians said that they were heretics, and not real Christians, and obviously God wanted segregation and to do away with segregation would be to reject God.
Fast-forward a couple decades, and you end up with the Promise Keepers tearfully begging the African-American community for forgiveness, apologizing for all that conservative Christians of the last few generations did to keep them from being full citizens. And those verses once used to support racism are now interpreted differently, with a nuanced understanding of the time and place in which they were written. Because as it turns out, the “heretical” civil rights protesters were right.
A little later than that, faithful Christians said that God’s will was opposed to homosexuality. They had Bible verses that proved, clear as day, that God hated homosexuality: Genesis 19:1-5. Leviticus 18:22. Leviticus 20:13. Corinthians 6:9-10. 1 Timothy 1:9-10. Romans 1:21-31.
Then a bunch of crazy gays and liberals came in and said that God loved his gay creations. They asked whether Jesus would approve of the torment the Christian community puts its gay members through. They wrote books with titles like “What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality” and “The Children are Free.” They argued that the verses used against gays and lesbians needed to be interpreted differently, with a more nuanced understanding of the time and place in which they were written. And the respectable, pro-segregation Christians said that they were heretics, and not real Christians, and obviously God hated homosexuality and to stop persecuting gays would be to reject God.
Hey, guess which side of history you’re on?
Cam
@MrNirom:
Why did Mormons not allow blacks full actual membership in the church until around 1980?
And why does the Mormon church continually trumpet it’s aiding in the defeat of the Equal Rights Amendment?
Please explain the reasons behind the church’s bigotry.
Samwise
Dag nabbit. Okay, fourth paragraph, first sentence should say: “all those verses about slaves are interpreted differently.” Ninth paragraph, fifth sentence should say: “And the respectable, ANTI-GAY Christians said that they were heretics…”
My imaginary kingdom for an edit button.
AlanInS.L.UT
Mr. Nimrom,
To me, the only true way to know God and to connect to the universe is to look inwards. You learn to share what you find with those who are honestly seeking to know themselves and their spirit, and to learn from each others experiences, not by forcing their beliefs upon others. I don’t feel you ever learn from written stories/texts (the bible or other religious books)that have been passed down, altered, revised, and whatever else they do to manipulate them. Through the millenia those books and those who follow them have been fooling people into following ideas which no longer apply to the world at hand, other than by mimicking potential experiences you may have had during your own life. Even still, the teachings are so vague that any interpretation is very peronal and cannot be fully understood enough guide others from it.
Spiritual knowledge comes from being open in both mind and heart and with no room for judging others. Through experiencing the many facets of life, that come from looking beyond the borders that religion tries to contain humanity in, taking risks and questioning the world around them, one can find their spirit and their connection to their understanding of what God is. It doesn’t take following the guidance of other man, nor the teachings of any religion. Judgement is left to you (each person) to work through yourself, by your own guilt felt in your own soul for the decisions you have made which go against what you feel is best for you and you only. Its not something you are obligated to discuss with anyone unless they show they are open to it, nor is judement any way to get in good graces with those whom you don’t understand.
Any negative thinking keeps you from truely knowing your apirit and God, especially when you waste your energy trying to convince others to follow another path that they don’t feel comfortable with following. God/univers gives you a sense of self so you can go find the things that life contains that brings you happiness, no matter what others think is best for them…its probably not the same for you.
Most religions tell you how to live your life, what to think, how to act, whom to associate with and to not question their teaching as it came directly from God. This to me is complete bullshit. If god can create everyting we know in life, don’t you think that God could & would teach you personally his teachings without relying upon man? Afterall, any of the supposed teachings from God could be taught by a man that is sinful, self-indulgent, greedy, deceitful, etc… I find it pathetic and a waste of life to wait for someone, who has the potential to be deceitful, to teach me what I can go find on my own by getting to know myself better and the world as it appears to me personally. Anyone who proclaims that Jesus or God (or any other religious entity) is the one and only true path to salvation is truely missing out on experiencing what life can be, which is SOOOOOO much more than what religions allow you to find for yourself. If only they (people such as yourself) would open their hearts and minds and think for themselves and try to not judge the lives of others. Why not be an individual, rather than deciding to be a follower? Why not love, rather than hate those that are different? Why not life your own life and leave others to find out for themselves what makes them happy?
Its just plain sad to me and a waste of a life to decide to follow the teachings of others than to find out for yourself through your own life experiences and questioning how nature functions. Maybe one day you’ll see the magic that life can be when you rid yourself of all the negativity you hold towards others who live differently than you do yourself. Maybe!
jenn
you know, one day i woke up and thought to myself, “how can i make my life as difficult as possible? it’s just too easy to get through each day. i need to come up with a way to make life hell, especially when i’m a teenager. hmm… what could i do?”
Joe
The man’s name is Boyd Packer. Geezus… enough said.
codyj
ah gee mistah nimrod, i worked with some of your members…they only marry other morons, they only go to moron universitys, they only socialize with other morons, and play board games at their local moron churhes…all ok with me, of course, its a free country, but these young men also spent 2 years on a ‘moron ‘(reccomended) journey, shunning all outside news of any kind, going door to door ‘prostelizing’ i.e. spreading their word (garbage). i asked them, what happens if you stop at the home of GLBTs? WHAT DO YOU TELL THEM???. THEIR ANSWER…”WHy, we tell them to STOP (being-acting) that lifestyle, or else they will go STRAIGHT to HELL.”…..hmmm good thing they didnt stop at MY HOUSE….what a bunch of ignorant dum dums
David
Remove the “D” and you’ve got yourself a boy packer.
Maxx E. Padd
Damn, I miss the part in history class that Mormons own the classification of marriage. Please explain to me where my marriage to someone of my own sex is a threat to someones marriage?
Why do Christians, which Mormons are not, forget this part of the Bible:
Leviticus 19.17-19.18
(17) You shall not hate in your heart anyone of your
kin: you shall reprove your neighbor, or you
will incur guilt yourself.
(18) You shall not take vengeace, or bear a grudge
against any of your people, but you shall love
your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.
I have said many, many times when it comes to religion it is never about love it is about hate and judgement. Yet, if you are truly a Christian who really is to judge? Is it really in your place to judge a gay person if you are truly a Christian?
Ken S
@MrNirom:
Hey, retard, if your mythical god cares *so little* about humans’ families on Earth because all that matters is worshiping him, then his followers should shut the fuck up about the ‘sanctity’ of those families. That’s on your terms.
Daez
My guess would be that it was because God needed fashion and interior designers. His robes didn’t get white by themselves, and the streets of heaven didn’t decide to pave themselves in gold brick.
On a more serious note, people should stop and think its religous bigots they are mad at not God.
Comixbear
This makes me so happy that I’ve got a church and faith that not only accepts me as a gay male, but knows that it isn’t a sin.
B
QUEERTY (paraphrasing Packer): “That’s because homosexuality is not, according to Packer, ‘inborn.’ After all: ‘Why would our heavenly father do that to anyone? … A law against nature would be impossible to enforce. Do you think a vote to repeal the law of gravity would do any good?’
Well, in one sense Packer has a valid point – if you try to repeal a natural law, nothing will change as the repeal will be ignored by nature. So we can do an empirical test – repeal the law of gravity and drop the proverbial apple directly above Packer and see if it lands on Packer’s head, which curiously might actually do some good if it shakes up whatever is inside his skull.
What Packer does not realize is that by his own argument, if same-sex marriage is against the laws of nature, allowing same-sex marriage will have no effect whatsoever and is consequently harmless.
So, let’s do a test and see what happens. You know, answer the question experimentally.
southpaugh
@MrNirom:
The issue isn’t between right and wrong, good and evil, God or Satan. The issue is between fact and fiction. Religious parents train their children to believe in eggregious fantasy and regard embracing its fraud as truth (Don’t bother me with facts as long as I have the Truth.) and to regard willful ignorance as a virtue. It’s cemented with the guilt of non-existant original sin and fear of the non-existant blasphemy of questioning any facet of religious assertions. What a racket! God and the Devil are on the same side of the equation regardless of how those who embrace the delusion wish to characterize it. As long as you cannot prove religious claims and assertions, they have no basis in fact because facts are provable and testable without need of a faith cop-out. Religion is fraud and poisons everything it touches. No matter how hard anybody tries, there is no such thing as being close to or on the side of God because it is impossible to to position oneself in regard to a myth except through delusion. Religion literally makes people crazy, for which they’d be treated or even locked up were it couched in any description besides religion.
Billy
The real definition of “religion” – A hate group.
xyz2
@PLAYS WELL WITH OTHERS: Thank you: I am a gay male, I was created by God. God doesn’t make mistakes.
xyz2
@Maxx E. Padd: I’m not a christian by any stretch of the imagination. I do believe this bible verse, quote can be used in everyday life. I thank you for the awesome piece of information, education,a new perspective to help me in my daily journey. 🙂
Cassandra
“No Cassandra.. the result of disobeying the law is Justice.”
I’m sorry, but you are wrong. You are confusing justice with punishment, which is a terrible, but understandable mistake, given the culture you defend.
Justice is the quality of being just, equal, fair, justice is doing what is right, good, loving, compassionate.
“So your whole premise that the root of the law is justice is quite faulty and in itself is an injustice.”
I’m sorry, but your misunderstanding of the concept of justice does not negate my statements, but it might add confirming evidence.
Jesus defined the Law, maybe you seek to prove that Mormons reject Jesus Christ, but if they do not, consider the following:
34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36″Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37Jesus replied: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Matthew 22:34-40 NIV
This is justice – treating others as you wish to be treated, loving God as God deserves to be love – wholly.
“But hey.. believe what you want… justify it any way you want.”
Your derogatory dismissal is an indication that you cannot adequately refute what I have presented.
I wrote: “many people do say “I worship and obey God” and approve of homosexual behavior.”
“Yes Cassandra they do.. and they are hypocrites.”
No, they are honest. Perhaps that is a quality you are not yet familiar with. Your statement is a demonstration of your pride, your ego. You have decided that because you have a thought in your head, it defines other people’s lives and spirituality. That is an extraordinary example of the sin of pride.
“Your whole line of thinking is more in line with the way Satan uses tactics to convert mankind to his ways. It is you dear sister who needs to repent.”
That is another ugly dismissal that indicates you cannot refute what I have presented.
Geoff M
@Cassandra: Cassandra, you absolutely rock!
Stenar
@MrNirom:
MrNimrod,
Whenever you see a rainbow, God is having gay sex.
the crustybastard
Eighteen months after Joseph Smith’s conviction for fraud (convincing rubes he could locate buried treasure by means of “seeing stones” inside his hat), he claimed to discover buried golden tablets that only he could decipher by means of “seeing stones” inside his hat.
This unprosecuted fraud became the basis of Boyd Packer’s religion.
Ordinarily I would just pity someone that simple and gullible. Except for this:
“There are those today who’d not only tolerate but advocate voting to change laws that would legalize immorality.”
Well, Mr. Packer, you might also bear in mind there are those today (as there have been throughout the sordid history of your so-called “religion”) who likewise would not only tolerate but advocate voting to make Mormonism illegal.
In fact, it’s already happened.
So as a resident of a state that once issued an “Extermination Order” against Mormons, I’d suggest you remember this fact and tread a little more lightly on your neighbor’s liberties and rights.
They don’t appreciate it.
Will
Support Boyd K. Packer?
‘Like’ the following page.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-Support-Boyd-K-Packer/143707572341356
Doug Morrison
@MrNirom: And God will ask you, Why did you oppose men loving one another and let hatred fill your soul?
B
No. 8 · Geoff wrote, “It sure seems like we’re hearing a lot more of the argument ‘they weren’t born that way’ which absolutely floors me too. How could they possibly claim that since they’re not gay? ”
You don’t have to be gay to know – the consensus among real experts – geneticists, psychologists, etc. – is that sexual orientation is set either before birth or at a very early age, with evidence of genetic factors being at least partly responsible.
The problem with these Mormon guys is that they simply don’t know what they are talking about. They are making the same mistake religious people made hundreds of years ago when they claimed that the earth had to be the center of the universe – they are believing their theology when it contradicts empirical evidence.
S
A long time ago, I had a colleague who was Mormon. He was fair minded, kind and generous.
We worked together for many years and became close friends, and I was a frequent guest in his home.
Years later, we had both gone on to different jobs in different parts of the country. When I came out to him (by phone), this is what he said to me (as close to an exact quote as I can recall):
“S, I’m saddened to learn this, but when I say that it means that I am saddened in the same way I would be if you told me you had a gambling problem.
“However, NOTHING that has made you my friend has changed. You are the same person with the same fine qualities and will ALWAYS be welcome as my friend, in my home, to join me and my family.”
Apparently he mentioned it to his bishop, who chastised him severely for his accepting attitude.
So this man is supposed to choose between his instinctual principles for fairness and humanity, and his religion.
I know this man well. He may “go along” on the outside.
But inside he will always know what is right.
Apparently that is not true for Mr Packer, “MrNirom”, and many other members of the LDS church.
I find it tragic that so many people willingly abdicate their sovereign right to think for themselves in favor of being told how to think by “religious leaders”.
Mike C
@S: The bishop’s response was wrong and regrettable. This kind of thing happens all the time, it isn’t church policy, its church culture. Some leaders in the church are doing something to change attitudes toward gay people, like the stake president in Rochester that arranged for his entire stake to see Carol Lynn Pearson’s play Facing East.
nick humphrey
@Bobby in Seattle: putting a gun to my head would get me to “sleep with” a man =)
“apostle” boyd packer’s ridiculous logic can be applied to any human “abnormality” like transgender, ectopic pregnancy, etc…
i absolute love this user comment:
“And why oh why would the supposdly good lord create a hatefull pandering vile bigoted scumbag like you, Packer????”
=)
AirAmerica
We all lived with our Maker before we came to earth. Everyone who was faithful in their first estate became eligible to be born into this, the second estate. That is an inclusive statement. There is a “softening” of church doctrine likely because it was not fully in line with Heavenly Father’s plan for everyone. Those who speak harshly now will be replaced by more loving apostles as we all strive to succeed to be redeemed and live with Heavenly Father. This is how I see we are moving toward acceptance. Be happy.
AirAmerica
I would add that “there must needs be opposition in all things.” Were it not so there would not be a choice for anything.