Chris MacDonald-Dennis calls himself a gay mixed agnostic Jew who happens to think about social justice for a living. He is Assistant Dean of the Undergraduate College and Director of Intercultural Affairs at Bryn Mawr College. He has been a scholar-activist for more than fifteen years and has been involved with many social change movements, including the LGBT movement and the struggle to save affirmative action. Originally from Boston, he currently lives in Philadelphia. Read his blog 
“But you all have the same issues we do! I mean, why are we even dividing ourselves, race doesn’t matter—we are all gay.” Fifteen years ago, a white gay male friend said this to me after I asked him how responsive the LGBT group he ran focused on issues affecting people of color. He truly did not understand that LGBT people of color might have unique needs or that we may have different priorities than the white LGBT community.
Since that conversation, I have worked diligently in the LGBT community to help my white brothers and sisters understand the privileges they enjoy as white people.
White privilege is a difficult concept for many whites to understand. As Peggy McIntosh contends in her seminal piece “White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack,” Whites are not taught to recognize how their status as white people confers on them many privileges. Hopefully, this piece will try to break the layers of denial that whites have about their privilege and that work to protect, prevent awareness about, and entrench that privilege.
The voices of LGBT people of color are generally not included unless the white LGBT group wants to reach out to communities of color. If LGBT people are included, they are often only done so as tokens and only if they agree with the white LGBT narrative.
White privilege is a set of advantages that white people benefit from on a daily basis not afforded to people of color. White privilege can exist without white people’s conscious knowledge of its presence and it helps to maintain the racial hierarchy in this country. The biggest problem with white privilege is the invisibility it maintains to those who benefit from it most. The inability to recognize that many of the advantages whites hold are a direct result of the disadvantages of other people, contributes to the unwillingness of white people, even those who are not overtly racist, to recognize their part in maintaining and benefiting from white supremacy.
White privilege teaches whites that only one’s own standards and opinions are accurate to the exclusion of all other standards and opinions. Because Whites generally view their beliefs and actions as normative and neutral, they fail to identify Whiteness as a racial identity and do not realize they are racialized as well. Though Whites are taught to think of their lives as morally neutral, average, and ideal, their perspective is not “objective” or neutral. By not confronting their privilege, Whites as the racially dominant group maintain that dominance.
Whiteness in the LGBT community is everywhere, from what we see, what we experience, and more importantly, what we desire. Media images in television and film promote a monolithic image of the ‘gay community’ as being overwhelmingly upper-middle class if not simply rich, male and white. Even the most cursory glance through gay publications highlights the scarcity of images of people of color. If we are represented, it seems that we only exist to serve the needs of the largely gay white population seeking an ‘authentic’ experience of some kind, either through sex, music or travel. To the white LGBT community, our existence as LGBT people of color, is merely an afterthought, an inconvenient fact that is thought about in the most insignificant and patronizing way.
In the LGBT political world, this shows up as White people thinking that the issues of importance to them are the only ones that matter. Many White LGBT folk do not realize that LGBT people of color have different perspectives and may think we as a community should focus on other issues. White privilege obscures the fact that LGBT people of color may frame a particular issue in a different way. Moreover, people of color who are attracted to the same sex may not even use the terms “gay”, “lesbian” or “bisexual.” However, the white framing of our issues is the only one allowed in our political discourse. The voices of LGBT people of color are generally not included unless the white LGBT group wants to reach out to communities of color. If LGBT people are included, they are often only done so as tokens and only if they agree with the white LGBT narrative.
We must continue to grapple with the ways invisible whiteness and white privilege permeate the LGBT community because they undermine our movement. Recently, the Human Rights Campaign, the nation’s largest LGBT civil rights organization, released Equality Forward, a report aimed at gaining a deeper understanding about the complexities at the intersection of race, sexual orientation and gender identity. I applaud HRC for this study and the subsequent blog conversations and online town halls they are holding. I hope, though, that HRC discusses white privilege as a part of this work. If they do not, the work will be incomplete. Paula Rothenberg, a professor who specializes in studying whiteness, reminds us that white privilege is the other side of the racial oppression coin. HRC, and other groups that are attempting to be more inclusive, cannot truly look at why people of color are not involved in the larger movement if they do not examine white privilege. It’s time for white LGBT folk to challenge their own privilege, listen to all voices and take on the issues that matter to all of us.
Fitz
Shut up, you whiney bore.
Cam
This article was ridiculous and completely without scholarly merit. If you are going to make comments like “In the LGBT political world, this shows up as White people thinking that the issues of importance to them are the only ones that matter. Many White LGBT folk do not realize that LGBT people of color have different perspectives and may think we as a community should focus on other issues.” Then you should list what those issues are. You can’t just say “Gee, white gays don’t get it, there are a TON of things that they don’t do that GLBT people of color want and need, and then not say what those are.” Because if you don’t bother to put those in your article is merely whining.
John Galt
Mr. MacDonald-Dennis, please stop trying to always play the race card. Try to be productive in your own life by not being a “victim” all the time.
B
I can’t believe what I just read. I fully understand that different backgrounds equate to different prioritizations and experience but this…I’m not sure what to call it…this editorial simply depicts white individuals and blind, naive, ignorant and unaware. Such a brash generalization is harsh unfair and essentially racist. Wow, it amazes me that someone who is clearly promoting equality and understanding of all race and ethnicities is clearly missing the mark by forwardly generalizing and, in my opinion, offending my own ability to recognize the world.
Adam
It’s hard to say what the point of this article is, considering how vaguely it is written. Actual examples would have been nice.
matt
what the hell? I’m a gay man of color and this made no sense at all.
Talk about generalization. Yowza.
B
I know I already commented but I just have to put one more thought out there. Commentaries such as this do nothing more than to continue to segregate an already hostile population. Until we recognize that individuals are just that, individuals with their own experiences, sense of responsibilities, priorities, etc… we will do nothing more than continue to place individuals in more and more boxes. Each person has their own right to an opinion and each person may feel urgency within certain areas of their own fight. But, (a big but) how is a person of colors struggle for equality, their desire to marry whom they would like to marry, their responsibility to squash intolerance any different than my own? We may need to look at aspects of an individual in order to asses our abilities to reach out to them, such as safer sex advocacy or tolerance within their culture, however these are not simply race issues, these are centered around their network of people. Who they interact with, who they recognize as their peers, who they relate to, and while the color of your skin may be a factor in that, it is hardly the be all end all. I said it already but I will say it again, these types of editorials do nothing more than hurt our own community.
c0rpusdelicti
@John Galt:
Goddamn you, one does not “play” the race card.
One is dealt it and, more often than not, from the bottom of the deck.
@B:
Speaking of the important, racially consequential aspects of whiteness and white privilege doesn’t constitute “racism”. If you, personally, don’t fit the image of white privilege he’s painting, bully for you. Now, go out and change the minds of those who do.
And, for the record, I’d say that by and large white folks are blind, naive, ignorant, and unaware of how it feels to be a person of color in a predominantly white (at least most often portrayed as predominantly white) social subgroup. You know why? Because they’re fucking white!
@Adam: @matt:
I would say that it’s somewhat difficult to speak of something as pervasive and insidious as white privilege without resorting to some generalization. While specific examples may have bolstered his argument, I don’t think they are in any way necessary for his argument to stand on its merits.
Katie
And there y’all go with the comments, dismissing without reflecting.
“White privilege teaches whites that only one’s own standards and opinions are accurate to the exclusion of all other standards and opinions.”
Yup.
c0rpusdelicti
@B:
But, (a big but) how is a person of colors struggle for equality, their desire to marry whom they would like to marry, their responsibility to squash intolerance any different than my own?
In many, myriad, diverse, and multitudinous ways. Race has powerfully shaped the American social, cultural, and political landscapes and has made it so that individuals (who may be alike in numerous other ways e.g. economically, religiously, in terms of sexual orientation) have radically different experiences, needs, and desires. To deny this fact, which should be manifest to everyone on a day to day basis, is to be guilty of the blindness that MacDonald-Dennis identifies. It is, indeed, to prove his point for him.
REBELComx
I’m sorry what was this article about? Oh yeah, all white LGBT people are unknowingly racist. The writer only said it about 4 dozen times in a different way. Can you repeat yourself a little more? Or better yet, add some actual substance to your argument in the form of examples, or interviews or studies showing how people of color feel this way or agree with you? How about telling us exactly how people of color frame things differently, or what other goals they think the LGBT community should be focusing on and how that is different than any other smaller section of the LGBT community who might disagree with the overall goals of the group (gay republicans come to mind, so do people who think that marriage should be a back burner issue). Oh and some examples of different words used by People of color for “gay, lesbian or bisexual” would be nice, since I’ve never heard any. And “Down-low” doesn’t count.
This is a very poorly written article by a very whiny, and ironically rather privileged, awfully white, New England Jew with an incredibly European name. I’m curious exactly how he feels he’s part of the “people of color” LGBT community.
Chris
About my own identity: yes, I look white. My birth father is Jewish, my adopted dad was Scottish (hence the last name “MacDonald”) and my mother is Cuban and Puerto Rican. My skin color was used is my family as currency. My family, who is darker than me, would take me places to get better treatment. I remember how my adopted dad was treated versus my mother. That has been part of my consciousness for my whole life.
And the term “New England” is probably supposed to mean I am privileged by class. Sorry, I was raised in the projects of Boston. You may try to pain me with a brush but it probably isn’t true.
Erick
OK, I understand the intention of this article, but not the point, it doesnt have one. It keeps repeating the same idea with different wording: whites have it – people of color dont, but without any analisis of the reasons or manifestations of this fenomenon in the LGTB community of color.
If the intention of the author, as noted at the beggining of the article, was to make people understand this issue, he failed. It would have been nice to know how those priorities differ and why.
c0rpusdelicti
And you motherfuckers acting like you want citations, footnotes, and a goddamn bibliography. White privilege is something that has existed in America for literally centuries and has roots so deep that it has subconscious physiological effects on individuals. A veritable sea of scholarly research and writing exists on the phenomenon.
What makes anyone think that White LGBTers are any more immune to white privilege than White heterosexuals?
Katie
Not sure why you’re insisting on the author to do the work for you. If you really don’t see his perspective, just google “racism” and “lgbt”. Here’s a link to 87,000 blog entries that come up with that search:
http://blogsearch.google.com/blogsearch?hl=en&q=racism%20lgbt&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wb
REBELComx
@Chris: So you’re experience with racism has really nothing to do with the LGBT community. So you identify yourself as a person of color first and a homosexual second. Because of this, you perceive racial prejudice first and are more likely to see it everywhere as opposed to seeing the struggle of the gay community as a whole.
You’re call for white LGBTers to wake up to their privilege is based in your own prejudices founded in childhood experiences of regular racism. You’re own self admitted bias has colored your perception of a separate community that had nothing to do with your psychological programming. You’re carrying your childhood victimization with you and are allowing it to influence your views of a completely unrelated group of people. That sir, is racism.
B
@c0rpusdelicti I consider this racist because he is generalizing a population because of the color of their skin. He never once recognizes that perhaps there are individuals out there that can recognize “White privilege” and not fan the flames of its existence. This is a horrible, generalized, and undermining statement and since his assumption is based off the color of the skin of those he is discussing I consider it racist.
I have not denied that fact that race has played a huge role in our world. Shaping our cultural diversity, shifting politics, etc.. I have also not denied the existence of white privilege. The crux of my issue with this article is that he is very blatantly making a HUGE assumption himself. And honestly, reading the article seriously hurt my feelings. It made me feel like the work I have done to understand and be conscientious of racial boundaries and inequalities counts for nothing. It’s not fair.
And as I have pointed out, we can’t continue to divide ourselves. If there is an issue with how something is being handled or dealt with in our community we can’t simply say, “You’re not being fair to this group of people because you don’t understand what it’s like living as a (fill in the blank). It is our responsibility to get our point across, explain why we believe something is being handled incorrectly or poorly and cite logical reasoning behind this argument. Until we are able to take race out of the forefront of an argument it will constantly be dismissed. Whether it is on the issue of white privilege or injustice within the community of people of color hardly makes a difference. Arguments such as the one made in this article will never hold water, unless we continue to classify ourselves as something other than simply human.
c0rpusdelicti
@REBELComx:
That sir, is racism.
No, my esteemed fellow, that is sanity.
Just read back over what you just wrote. Now, imagine that someone is telling you, as a LGBTer, that your experiences with homophobia has given you a heterophobic bias. Your statement, and that theoretical one, are the same. They are the same in their ignorance, the same in the illogic, and the same in their perpetuation of privilege in the face of all efforts to deconstruct it.
You have, literally, not the faintest idea what racism is. And that’s the problem.
Chuck
I, respectfully, disagree with this article. It is completely vague and devoid of any specifics. The only point that I could surmise was that the author thinks all white people should feel inherently guilty for basically existing.
That is crap. Gay people are a HELLUVA lot more open, accepting, and empathetic than straight people on just about every issue. And if gay people who had to hide and suffer just to stay alive can find ANYTHING to be proud of, then they deserve it. How would straight black people feel if they were targeted just for wanting to marry one another???
All the things this article talks about apply more to income disparages that to race. Looks at African Americans having fun on Martha’s Vineyard as we speak. I, for one, couldn’t afford to go anywhere near there. Nor can I afford to attend Pride or even march on DC.
Yet I do not choose to buy into the trap of self pity or feeling disenfranchised. If the author has problems with the world (which has never been better for gays, and does have it’s good points) then the real problem is with himself.
Straight whites and straight blacks are in FAR greater numbers and are a FAR bigger problem to gay black people. The blame it on gay whites argument just doesn’t work.
Distingué Traces
The article doesn’t make its points very forcefully.
The comments do.
Angel Ventura
You make me laugh “White” privileges aren’t for white gays, that’s for sure.And gays soulnd’t be racists, as they experience discrimination on their own skin. Gay and blacks must go together against discrimination and oppression. AND I DON’T ACCEPT TO BE LABELED A RACIST ONLY ON BEHALF OF THE COLOR OF MY SKIN, OK? WTF? THAT’S TOO IS RACISM|
Rick
As a Jew, I blame the Jews.
Angel Ventura
Well, I’m not taking no “collective” oor “historical” blame, thank you. I’m only responsible for what I’ve done or failed to do. But I don’t accept to be blamed racistically for the col,or of my skin!
REBELComx
@c0rpusdelicti: That’s not a very good analogy at all. A more accurate one would be if I, as an Irishman, with experiences of Irish prejudice at the hands of Americans, has given me a bias against the French.
The LGBT communtity is a GLOBAL community that crosses all boundries. To hold a bias against white lgbtrs because some STRAIGHT white people treated you as less as a child, is akin to hating Buddhists because some Indian gave you a hard time in a taxi cab.
Vincent
Why is everyone suddenly exploding at the need for evidence, citations, and footnotes? This is a BLOG post. vomit. if you want articles on white privilege, please see the following:
Adams, Maurianne et al. (Eds.) (2000). Readings for diversity and social justice: An anthology on racism, antisemitism, sexism, heterosexism, ableism and classism. New York: Routledge.
Chávez Chávez, Rudolfo (1998). Engaging the multicultural education terrain: A holographic montage for engagers. In Chávez
Chávez, Rudolfo and O’Donnell, James (Eds.) (1998). Speaking the unpleasant: The politics of (non) engagement in the multicultural educational terrain. New York: SUNY.
Chávez Chávez, Rudolfo and O’Donnell, James (Eds.) (1998). Speaking the unpleasant: The politics of (non) engagement in the multicultural educational terrain. New York: SUNY.
Clark, Christine and O’Donnell, James (Eds.) (1999). Becoming and unbecoming white: Owning and disowning a racial identity. Westport: Bergin & Garvey.
Cooper, Arnold (1999). Becoming white: How I got over. In Clark, Christine and O’Donnell, James (Eds.) (1999). Becoming and unbecoming white: Owning and disowning a racial identity. Westport: Bergin & Garvey.
Edgington, Amy (2000). Moving beyond white guilt. In Adams, Maurianne et al. (Eds.) (2000). Readings for diversity and social justice: An anthology on racism, antisemitism, sexism, heterosexism, ableism and classism. New York: Routledge.
Gannon, Mary (1999). What could a white girl from South Boston possibly know about racism? Reflections of a social justice educator. In Clark, Christine and O’Donnell, James (Eds.) (1999). Becoming and unbecoming white: Owning and disowning a racial identity. Westport: Bergin & Garvey.
Goodman, Diane (1998). Lowering the shields: Reducing defensiveness in multicultural education. In Chávez Chávez, Rudolfo and O’Donnell, James (Eds.) (1998). Speaking the unpleasant: The politics of (non) engagement in the multicultural educational terrain. New York: SUNY.
Howard, Gary (1999). White man dancing: A story of personal transformation. In Clark, Christine and O’Donnell, James (Eds.) (1999). Becoming and unbecoming white: Owning and disowning a racial identity. Westport: Bergin & Garvey.
López, Ian (1996). White by law: The legal construction of race. New York: New York University Press.
McIntosh, Peggy (1989). White privilege: Unpacking the invisible knapsack. New York: SUNY.
McLaren, Peter (1999). Unthinking whiteness, rethinking democracy: Critical citizenship in grigolandia. In Clark, Christine and O’Donnell, James (Eds.) (1999). Becoming and unbecoming white: Owning and disowning a racial identity. Westport: Bergin & Garvey.
Pearce, Sarah (2003). Compiling the white inventory: The practice of whiteness in a British primary school. ERIC document #EJ677519.
Rothenberg, Paula. (2004). White privilege: Essential readings on the other side of racism. New York: Worth.
Smith, Robert (1998). Challenging privilege: White male middle-class opposition to in the multicultural education terrain. In Chávez Chávez, Rudolfo and O’Donnell, James (Eds.) (1998). Speaking the unpleasant: The politics of (non) engagement in the multicultural educational terrain. New York: SUNY.
Thompson, Cooper (2000). White men and the denial of racism. In Adams, Maurianne et al. (Eds.) (2000). Readings for diversity and social justice: An anthology on racism, antisemitism, sexism, heterosexism, ableism and classism. New York: Routledge.
West, Cornell (1994). Race matters. Boston: Beacon Press.
Wildman, Stephanie and Davis, Adrienne (2000). Language and silence: Making systems of privilege visible. In Adams, Maurianne et al. (Eds.) (2000). Readings for diversity and social justice: An anthology on racism, antisemitism, sexism, heterosexism, ableism and classism. New York: Routledge.
now go spend a minute, and educate yourself on the issue.
DoubleStandards
Interesting that on this very website, the coverage of the GLAAD event last night features photos of all white people. Lots of gay, rich looking white guys, lots of straight, wealthy women, here and there an eye-catching lesbian. But absolutely NO person of color. It’s nice that the website will give you a smidgen of space to voice your perspective, but let’s not forget that the other actions of those in charge still communicate the master narrative of what it means/looks like to be gay in America.
Vincent
@Distingué Traces – TRUTH!
c0rpusdelicti
@B:
I consider this racist because he is generalizing a population because of the color of their skin. He never once recognizes that perhaps there are individuals out there that can recognize “White privilege” and not fan the flames of its existence. This is a horrible, generalized, and undermining statement and since his assumption is based off the color of the skin of those he is discussing I consider it racist.
Umm, true/false, my nig, White people, as a group,
pretty much have a monopoly on socio-economic power in America. Right? Recognizing this fact, and the power dynamics that arise as a consequence of it, is necessarily a general statement, but in no way does it make it any less valid.
And you’re another who has no fucking clue of what racism actually is.
I have not denied that fact that race has played a huge role in our world. Shaping our cultural diversity, shifting politics, etc.. I have also not denied the existence of white privilege. The crux of my issue with this article is that he is very blatantly making a HUGE assumption himself. And honestly, reading the article seriously hurt my feelings. It made me feel like the work I have done to understand and be conscientious of racial boundaries and inequalities counts for nothing. It’s not fair.
Maaaaaaannnn, FUCK YOUR FEELINGS. Like I said earlier, if you’re aware of your white privilege and the effects it has on people of color, awesome, great, fine, here’s a cookie. Now, go out and keep fighting because the work isn’t finished!
And as I have pointed out, we can’t continue to divide ourselves. If there is an issue with how something is being handled or dealt with in our community we can’t simply say, “You’re not being fair to this group of people because you don’t understand what it’s like living as a (fill in the blank). It is our responsibility to get our point across, explain why we believe something is being handled incorrectly or poorly and cite logical reasoning behind this argument. Until we are able to take race out of the forefront of an argument it will constantly be dismissed. Whether it is on the issue of white privilege or injustice within the community of people of color hardly makes a difference. Arguments such as the one made in this article will never hold water, unless we continue to classify ourselves as something other than simply human.
I am soooo sick of this feel-good white liberal bullshit. And that’s what it is: bullshit. People of color don’t have the luxury of negating their race as whites do, because we’re Other-ed on a daily basis as soon as we walk out of the door. It is precisely your white privilege that allows you to make such ignorant statements and you have the unmitigated temerity to talk about how your FEELINGS are hurt because this man had the GALL to point out the continued existence of White privilege and its possible effects on the LGBT community.
Clearly you have a long way to go, despite your self-vaunted efforts.
B
@ Vincent I don’t deny the existence of white privilege. I simply ask that Mr. MacDonald-Dennis make his point without marginalizing and offending an entire group of people. By doing so he has essentially dismissed his entire argument by being antithetical to his point.
c0rpusdelicti
@REBELComx:
Wow, I have no idea where you pulled that analogy from and have even less of an idea of how it relates to what I was saying.
Here’s the point: White LGBTers are still White and still enjoy/perpetuate white privilege (not all! but a majority!). Being LGBT doesn’t negate your race, and it’s mostly White LGBTers who think as such because the invisibility of their privilege allows the invisibility of their race. It is neither bias, nor racism, to recognize and address these facts. It is progressive, it is sane, and it is much needed.
B
@ c0rpusdelicti You’re not helping your point by basically making fun of me. Fine continue to patronize me and dismiss my own stand point. All it does is strengthen my own argument. I don’t get why people want to blame others all the time. If we are rational and logical we are able to make our points without having to offend others.
For example if he had discussed White privilege within the gay community without suggesting that all whites walk through the streets with their heads held high not recognizing the path of flowers thrown before them and doors held open simply because they are white he would have been able to get his point across without uproarious comments. This man is telling white people to hang their heads in shame of their existence. How is that a means of making a coherent statement?
And P.S. there is no need to start throwing out the F-bomb like it’s helping your case. It’s not, all it does is make you look like an angry bitter person.
Chuck
The author is using the same tactic, of acting like his opinion is the only one of validity and rightness, that he accuses white gays of doing. Way to rise above what you purport to be fighting against Chris.
By the way, did you ever think that your position in life might be because you ARE black and people at Bryn Mar were so impressed to find a literate black man that they promoted you to the very position from which you now draw a salary. If a poor white had equal qualifications, he/she would have been at a disadvantage.
Both Jesus and Mohammed taught for people to love one another. What exactly are you preaching?
Way to divide people in an already persecuted group. You will have a special place in hell.
Daniel
wow… an article that whines rather than offering anything constructive… that’s productive. I’d like to thank all the white people in the USA who have support human rights, including the human rights of gay people.
wondermann
This is a good post!
c0rpusdelicti
@B:
You’re not helping your point by basically making fun of me. Fine continue to patronize me and dismiss my own stand point. All it does is strengthen my own argument.
It is not my goal to only make fun of you. I’m trying to get you to thik.
I don’t get why people want to blame others all the time.
Because often there is blame to be laid.
For example if he had discussed White privilege within the gay community without suggesting that all whites walk through the streets with their heads held high not recognizing the path of flowers thrown before them and doors held open simply because they are white he would have been able to get his point across without uproarious comments. This man is telling white people to hang their heads in shame of their existence. How is that a means of making a coherent statement?
He did neither of those things. Please point out to me where he says that all whites are ignorant of white privilege and also where he says that all whites should be ashamed of their existence.
And P.S. there is no need to start throwing out the F-bomb like it’s helping your case. It’s not, all it does is make you look like an angry bitter person.
I give no fuck about the delicate sensibilities of people who use the term “F-Bomb”. You suck dick and you’re worried about swear words coming out of your mouth?
Rob
This article on this website is pointless. All people will do her is get offended and try to shoot the messenger. And, like another poster mentioned, it is quite telling that of all the images at that GLAAD event in NYC last night, there are NONE of any people of color. Our community has a long way to go towards recognizing its members of color, and if you don’t realize that, you’re just being willfully ignorant.
Chuck
@c0rpusdelicti: You reall are an intellectual giant, aren’t you? You have so much hate in you that you remind me of a NeoCon. I’m sorry that your education system failed you.
Note to all future posters: If Corpusdelicti replies to you, just scroll up to what he said to me and you’ll realize what kind of waste of space you are dealing with.
Cam
@c0rpusdelicti: Yous said ”
And you motherfuckers acting like you want citations, footnotes, and a goddamn bibliography. White privilege is something that has existed in America for literally centuries and has roots so deep that it has subconscious physiological effects on individuals. A veritable sea of scholarly research and writing exists on the phenomenon.
What makes anyone think that White LGBTers are any more immune to white privilege than White heterosexuals?”
________________________________
So fine, list some examples, you seem to desperately be trying to make a point, so instead of calling everybody motherfuckers, why not list a few examples of what you are talking about. If you can’t, then perhaps it is because you are just playing victim, if you can, then it would go much further in explaining what you are trying to say then calling everybody a “Motherfucker”. Sounds to me like you are a person that just likes to blame every problem they have on somebody else supposedly getting dealt a better hand. Well I’ve got news for you. Look at somebody like Michael Douglas’s kid. Dealt a pretty sweet hand, was an idiot and is now in Jail. Barak Obama, dealt a crappy hand and was smart and became president. Maybe you should yell and bitch less and worry more about getting things done.
REBELComx
@c0rpusdelicti:
I’m curious. Is my “white privilege” at all lessened by the fact that I am openly homosexual?
Your argument boils down to the idea that the LGBT struggle is not on equal par with the black civil rights struggle. And because of it, white gay people are less oppressed than even straight black people so we are somehow more privileged even within our own oppressed multiracial, multi-ethnic, multi-faith community.
As other comment listed, Chris’ generalization of white people, particularly in the LGBT community, does nothing other than point the finger and whine, creating even further discourse within the LGBT community.
I certainly hope that while you are pointing the finger at white LGBTs who may or may not have or be aware of their “privileged” status, you are also pointing the finger at members of your own racial community and calling out their Homophobia.
AndTom
@Rick: Great summation, but i think they count us as white as well
TomE
I am effin’ sick of this nonsense. You are castigating a group of people who’ve already enough inequality to negotiate on a daily basis.
Go whine to some straight white liberals: They love “double-oppression” stories. Please stop bothering us.
REBELComx
@Rob: Is it the fault of the white LGBT community that there aren’t more high profile lgbt people of color? Or is it the fault of the LGBT people of color for not dealing with the homophobia in their own racial community, and thus not allowing themselves to gain a higher profile?
Cam
@Chris: You, as the author of this article wrote “”About my own identity: yes, I look white.””
___________________________________
I get it now! This is the lament of the person trying to prove that they are as “real” as their relatives even though they “Look White”. This could have been written by the very light skinned AA woman, the part Asian man who has blue eyes and curly hair, the black child adopted by a while couple, or in your case the Latin man who looks more white than the rest of his family. It’s an old story, but hopefully you will now feel more confident at the next family dinner now that you have suitably attacked the part of your heritage you seem to have trouble with.
Chuck
This article and of course the ever-angry, hate-monger corpusdelicti, almost make me want to turn Republican. Maybe that is their goal- to break up the Democratic Party Coalition. Maybe Chris is Glen Beck in blackface. haha.
ben
I don’t think anyone could protest the existence of white privilege, it’s as prevalent and blatant as the privilege and favor given to people who are very attractive, of all races. The fact that the author denies anyone white the “education” or self-awareness to ever recognize this is the least of many glaring and disturbing absurdities. I can’t believe the ignorance of the author, nor the dolt who approved this alarming racist piece of journalism to see the light of day. Bye Bye Queerty, this is the last page view you’ll see from me.
Zachary
personally, i’m glad for my white privilege; i use it to my advantage all the time.
petted
This was very poorly put together, based on composition it reminds me of the writing most kids achieve in high school.No doubt someone will lambast me for critiquing how the piece was written. Without saying some fairly specific things about what is affecting LGBT communities of color – for example the culture of on-the-down-low, the higher rates off HIV infection in communities of color in recent years, and the importance that religion plays in the social networks of many LGBT individuals of color (no doubt there are those who have different perspectives as to what’s at they consider key concerns) – what was the point of this piece other then an ‘I told you so’. Progress doesn’t happen by merely complaining, it happens by acknowledging what is wrong and then figuring at how to change that – remember that the leaders of any group advocating for change have always been most successful when led by people in communities most impacted by what needed to be changed. To paraphrase a popular slogan of the Obama campaign you are the change of your generation.
c0rpusdelicti
@Chuck:
You reall are an intellectual giant, aren’t you?
Yes.
This is the only thing you’ve said that has had the slightest acquaintance with the truth.
@Cam:
So fine, list some examples, you seem to desperately be trying to make a point, so instead of calling everybody motherfuckers, why not list a few examples of what you are talking about.
Well, alrighty.
How about how gay organizations/the gay community have become notably less concerned/active about HIV/AIDS as rates of infection within the Black and Latino MSM communites are rising alarmingly?
How about the noted disengagement of groups like GLAAD and the HRC from the GLBTs of color (as can be seen right here on Queerty, as others have already noted.)?
How about the frequent and erroneous laying of blame at the passage of Prop 8 at the feet of black voters (which, incidentally, can frequently be seen at Queerty) despite the many white individuals and groups who played a vastly more important role in its passage?
How about the prevalence of pornography featuring POC that seeks only to eroticize them, to perpetuate myths about sexual prowess or genitalia size, or to feature them engaging in unsafe sex?
How about an experiment. Find a copy of the Advocate. Flip through its pages. How many blacks do you see? Latinos? On the opposite of the gay periodical fence, find a copy of BUTT magazine. Flip through its pages. How many POC do you find represented therein?
I mean, goddamn, just check out wikipedia:
According to a 2008 study, racism against gay Asian/Pacific Islander men leads to socially and contextually prescribed sexual roles for that may also contribute to the practice of unsafe sex among this group.[1]
According to a 2000 survey conducted of LGBT African-Americans in nine U.S. cities, a third of respondents reported negative experiences in predominantly white LGBT organizations and with white LGBT persons in bars and clubs.[2]
In 2005, Les Natali, the owner of a gay bar named Badlands located in San Francisco, was criticized by the city’s Human Rights Commission who determined that thirteen instances of racial discrimination by the staff occurred. Examples include refusal for entry by African-Americans, white patrons being served first even though African-Americans were first in line among others.[3] Badlands was picketed by a diverse group of community activists over several weeks to bring attention to the situation and a group, And Castro For All (AC4A) was formed that has continued to promote dialog about racism in LGBT communities.
In 2006, there were reports of verbal attacks on gay Latinos by gay whites in The Castro district of San Francisco. John Mendoza, a protest organizer against racism in the Castro, said he was told by a gay white male to “go back to Mexico, you fucking wetback, where you belong”.[4] A rally was staged in response.
Drag queen and performance artist Chuck Knipp has been criticized by anti-racism advocates for his character Shirley Q. Liquor. Knipp performs his act in blackface, and makes comments about blacks and black culture which some people consider offensive. Several protests have taken place and Knipp has canceled several of his shows.[5]
So, how you like them examples?
Sounds to me like you are a person that just likes to blame every problem they have on somebody else supposedly getting dealt a better hand. Well I’ve got news for you. Look at somebody like Michael Douglas’s kid. Dealt a pretty sweet hand, was an idiot and is now in Jail. Barak Obama, dealt a crappy hand and was smart and became president. Maybe you should yell and bitch less and worry more about getting things done.
First off, I’d like to say that your characterization of my complaints is so sterotypical of white belly-achin’ at any articulation of racism that I must state that if you’re not a racist, you’re doing a mighty good impersonation of one.
Secondly, your comparison of Michael Douglas’s son to Barack Obama is, well….I’ll just say it. Stupid. And typical.
No one is saying that whites all succeed. And no one is saying that all blacks are doomed to failure.
No.
One.
@REBELComx:
I’m curious. Is my “white privilege” at all lessened by the fact that I am openly homosexual?
Well, I’d say “It’s hard to say,”. One’s social power is definitely lessened, to the extent that you’re not going to have as much as a White heterosexual man. However, I still believe that every white person does enjoy social privilege that is barred to people of color.
Your argument boils down to the idea that the LGBT struggle is not on equal par with the black civil rights struggle.
I disagree that that is what my argument boils down to. I don’t think I’ve ever intimated that. I firmly believe that they are both essential parts of the struggle against White Patriarchal Heteronormative Capitalist oppression.
And because of it, white gay people are less oppressed than even straight black people so we are somehow more privileged even within our own oppressed multiracial, multi-ethnic, multi-faith community.
I would say that, as a whole, white gays have it better than straight blacks, in terms of socio-economic power, yes. And you are more privileged within the confines of the LGBT community than LGBTers of clor.
As other comment listed, Chris’ generalization of white people, particularly in the LGBT community, does nothing other than point the finger and whine, creating even further discourse within the LGBT community.
Your characterization of it as “whining”, again, does nothing but prove his point i.e. any non-White (i.e. explicitly racial/racialized) viewpoint is seen as invalid by those who perpetuate White privilege.
I certainly hope that while you are pointing the finger at white LGBTs who may or may not have or be aware of their “privileged” status, you are also pointing the finger at members of your own racial community and calling out their Homophobia.
Oh, trust me, I do. I’ve done it plenty of times with family and friends and wrote my undergrad thesis on Genet, Homosexuality, and Race. It ended with a screed against the Black community for perpetuating homophobia when there are battles to be fought against the capitalist pig-dogs that own American society.
Truth is truth, y’know.
Chuck
I wonder why Chris chooses to work at the epitome of white, classism, Bryn Mar? By choosing an historically white, classist college instead of somewhere like Morehouse or even Princeton, he is reinforcing the very racist, status quo establishment that he feigns to abhor. Such hypocrisy.
He must choose to live among whites. Say hello to Dolphus Raymund in reverse.
Chuck
@c0rpusdelicti:
This place is getting too ghetto for me. I’m off to my all white country club. Enjoy the smell of your own farts corpusdelicti!
c0rpusdelicti
@Chuck:
Dude, are you serious? I mean, really?
I shouldn’t be surprised.
Vincent
@B: asking people with privilege to recognize themselves as such is in itself a marginalizing and offensive experience. the author is asking people with privilege to be honest with themselves about it — a process that not everyone is ready to engage with.
RAYY
I appreciate the perspective, and obviously there are some gay people out there who are racist or insensitive. However, the author seems to have quite a chip on his shoulder. You want “white guilt”? Would that really help anything?
R
As the comments to this article show, white people don’t respond well to being lectured about “white privilege.” It puts us on the defensive, and people who feel defensive are less open to changing their behavior. Talking in the abstract about white privilege isn’t productive, even if everything you say is true.
If you want to improve race relations in the LGBT community, you have to say what concrete things you think need to change. MacDonald-Dennis mentions one thing: he wants more images of LGBT people of color in the media. Beyond this, the article is short on specifics.
One place where more detail would really help: MacDonald-Dennis writes, “White LGBT folk do not realize that LGBT people of color have different perspectives and may think we as a community should focus on other issues.” What are these other issues?
Vincent
@R: please see comment #48
c0rpusdelicti
@RAYY:
Re: “White Guilt”. I think this is a useful point. I used to have a hard time dealing with white guilt, because it had this paternalistic air and wallowing in it too often seemed to me to be a substitute for doing anything politically or socially efficacious.
However, if white privilege is a problem (and it is), it would be impossible to confront it without acknowledging its existence. And so many whites (as evidenced by even this comment page) seem to have an almost instinctive and rabid reaction to such an acknowledgment.
playasinmar
John Galt?! I thought you went back to your wife and your church! What are you doing here?
Joel
“Media images in television and film promote a monolithic image of the ‘gay community’ as being overwhelmingly upper-middle class if not simply rich, male and white. Even the most cursory glance through gay publications highlights the scarcity of images of people of color.”
Good column, even if some are uncomfortable reading it, but have you looked at the Queerty item on the GLAAD event yet?
Nathan Adler
@Katie:
“White privilege teaches whites that only one’s own standards and opinions are accurate to the exclusion of all other standards and opinions.”
I can say without fear of contradiction that I have never known anyone who did not believe that their own standards and opinions are accurate to the exclusion of all others.
c0rpusdelicti is a shining example of this particularly pernicious principle.
As for the article, the author seems to leave out the part of why anyone should give a shit.
Gigglingfool
i know this point has been made roughly 47 times already but i’ll reiterate anyway.
In theory I like this article. I think we as a community need to address in a more open format the racial prejudices within our own minority. As a lower middle class white male living in a predominately (not entirely) white area my whole life I have tried to keep an objective eye on myself about my perceptions of and interactions with people or color. It’s really difficult to gauge whether i do an ok job with that. I know I’m more successful then most people in my area simply by the blatant racist comments they make, but i dont think thats necessarily the criteria i should be measuring up to.
The concept of “White Privilege” as u presented it is an interesting one and I believe has some merit. though thats tough to tell based on the way you presented it. You introduce this phrase as if it s a condition, and illness (i was expecting a list of symptoms and when i should contact my physician), and then you proceed to build up to point that never fully make…
What exactly is “White Privilege”
Its not like I’ve never heard the phrase before but only in the context of anti-white so i chose not to give it much thought as i often do when i feel im being weakly attacked (perhaps this is a symptom of my White Privilege, I’m not sure, it was only thinly addressed in your article). But I think you really presented it in a non-accusatory way (as much as you can in social commentary) that gave you and opportunity to reach a lot of people and fully explain your observation. but you never actually explained anything. it ended up feeling cowardly and a waste of my time.
i read further up someone saying it was rather pretentious to expect the author to give us all the information, after all we’re clearly at a computer, we can look this information on our own right? I dont think that is a fair expectation. One, we’ve just been informed that we are ignorant and unobservant to some debatable degree. To expect us to to then go and “observe ourselves” with very little criteria seems slightly comical. Two, why should I? you’ve given me nothing to go on beyond how its sucks not to be white and the phrase “White Privilege”, there is nothing there to make me interested in the topic beyond any guilty feeling i brought in before reading it, and your a fool if you think everyone who reads this article will feel that way. Three, luckily for you I am full of guilt and a Googled both “LGBT Racism” as suggested and “White Privilege” to see what i would get.the first yielded basically no results, It was basically all information ive heard before predominantly on this site, a lot of example of racism in the LGBT community but nothing specifically about White Privilege which is what the article was about in the first place. The second was slightly more sucessful though everything was about as vague as this article, sent me to “White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack by Peggy McIntosh” which though interesting and informative doesnt really address the LGBT issue.
So i think you do a great disservice to your cause and to the people your trying to inform when you choose not to clearly outline your point and just through a lot of word imagery to induce a feeling guilt
I would love it if you would post another more informative article here and if you cant please direct to a place that has
B
@c0rpusdelicti calling me “my nig” or saying “FUCK YOUR FEELINGS” does not make me think. All it does is make me discount your opinion as irrational.
As for the article, no movement has ever advanced without the help of those in “power.” The black movement needed the help of whites to help shift social norms. The womens movement needed the same from men. Making statements like “the invisibility it maintains to those who benefit from it most” essentially calls whites ignorant. This is offensive and only shifts the thought process of those “in power” away from helping a civil right movement. It’s damaging and hurtful and in no way helpful.
@vincent I recognize is urge to allow individuals to understand that “white privilege” exists but why make this claim is such a derogatory way?
R
@Vincent: There are some good examples in comment #48. I wish that some of them had been included in the article.
B
@c0rpusdelicti calling me “nig” or saying “FUCK YOUR FEELINGS” does not make me think. All it does is make me discount your opinion as irrational.
As for the article. No movement has ever advanced without the help of those in “power.” The black movement needed the help of whites to help shift social norms. The womens movement needed the same from men. Making statements like “the invisibility it maintains to those who benefit from it most” essentially calls whites ignorant. This is offensive and only shifts the thought process of those “in power” away from helping a civil right movement. It’s damaging and hurtful and in no way helpful.
@vincent I recognize is urge to allow individuals to understand that “white privelage” exists but why make this claim is such a deragatory way?
Robert
I see three questions being hashed out in the comments, and we need to separate them out to keep the dialog coherent.
1. Are the issues raised in this article important?
2. Does the author make sweeping generalizations about Whites?
3. Could the article be better executed?
It’s possible to answer “yes” to all three questions.
First, the article definitely could be better executed. It’s repetitive and offers assertions without substantiation. It’s not useful, even according to its own logic: For instance, the author goes at great redundant length to emphasize that Whites aren’t generally aware of White privilege But if Whites don’t see that White privilege exists, then it’s useless to assert its existence vaguely. The only way to educate — or better, to persuade — readers is to get specific with details. Not only is that English 101, it’s also mandated by the author’s own premise of White ignorance. The article would be much more useful if it replaced much of its vague rhetoric with substantive examples. Here’s a good post doing exactly that with heterosexual privilege: http://queersunited.blogspot.com/2008/10/heterosexual-privilege-checklist.html
The author stumbles again when saying, ” In the LGBT political world, this shows up as White people thinking that the issues of importance to them are the only ones that matter.” This is another place where a few examples would persuade readers more effectively than the abstractions that follow.
Second, the author does make sweeping generalizations about Whites:
“Because Whites generally view their beliefs and actions as normative and neutral, they fail to identify Whiteness as a racial identity and do not realize they are racialized as well. Though Whites are taught to think of their lives as morally neutral, average, and ideal, their perspective is not “objective” or neutral. By not confronting their privilege, Whites as the racially dominant group maintain that dominance.”
Third, the issues clearly are important, as demonstrated by the vehemence of vituperance of the comments (looks like my thesaurus is stuck at “v.”)
The Gay Numbers
HETEROSEXUAL PRIVILEGE IS LIKE WHITE PRIVILEGE
The way I tend to describe white privilege to my gay white friends or heterosexual privilege to my straight black friends is to compare how they work out.
The mechanism of both is the belief of the majority is considered to be what is “normal.”
For example, the assumption that I am straight because I am a black guy who is into geeky things. Or, heterosexual privilege takes other forms. The assumption that I am “flaunting” my sexuality just to mention that I am attracted to someone, but knowing in one case of a guy who would always tell people at work about his “doing a lot of women” etc. He felt that this was appropriate. As did others. It was only when they had to ehar about something else that they saw it as not normal.
Or, when reading about a show that will include a gay character. The assumption is that the inclusion of the gay character is “liberal Hollywood” rather than telling a story with interesting character. Or worse yet, that the inclusion fo th character will somehow “limit’ the story line since they don’t want to do stories about sex.
Like white privilege heterosexual privilege is often denied by those perpetrating it. I have no problem with gays. I am no tmaking you unequal. And on and o n.
So, you are not going to get peo to admit to it. All you can do is to hammer away at the truth and hope they address it without admitting it.
c0rpusdelicti
@Nathan Adler:
‘Sup, sophist?
Cam
@c0rpusdelicti: You said
“@Cam:
So fine, list some examples, you seem to desperately be trying to make a point, so instead of calling everybody motherfuckers, why not list a few examples of what you are talking about.
Well, alrighty.
How about how gay organizations/the gay community have become notably less concerned/active about HIV/AIDS as rates of infection within the Black and Latino MSM communites are rising alarmingly?
________________________________________
Gee, funny, could it be because they are working towards civil rights now? AIDS at this point in time is no longer the killer it was, it is preventable and it is controllable. These groups have been working on AIDS issues for years and yet now they are being blamed because people are choosing to ignore warnings about safe sex. Universal health care, domestic partner benefits, and gay marriage will all help with AIDS issues by making better insurance available to the partners of gays as well as making insurance available to all if Obama’s health plan goes through, yet you give no credit to the groups pushing for these.
________________________________________
How about the noted disengagement of groups like GLAAD and the HRC from the GLBTs of color (as can be seen right here on Queerty, as others have already noted.)?
__________________________________________
And how about the disengagement of gay advocacy groups that are color specific? They voluntarily separate themselves from participation in the mainstream gay groups and then blame those groups for not engaging. As for HRC, I’m curious, have you not read 90% of the posts in here lambasting them? They are disengaged from every gay person who isn’t a lobbyist inside the DC city limits. So they are disengaged from everybody but you choose to see this only as an attack on you.
____________________________________________
How about the frequent and erroneous laying of blame at the passage of Prop 8 at the feet of black voters (which, incidentally, can frequently be seen at Queerty) despite the many white individuals and groups who played a vastly more important role in its passage?
____________________________________________
Blacks voted against marriage in the majority, at a higher percentage than Latinos, Whites, or Asians. Facts are Facts, to not report that would be to lose an opportunity for that “Engagement” you are complaining that the gay groups haven’t been doing. The fact that you miss the point that the Mormons have been attacked far more often and far more virulently in here shows that you are looking at the world only in how it effects you. The Mormons are nearly 100% white, they have been brutalized rightfully so in the gay press, yet again, you expect everybody to reach out to you, and yet you never seem to look beyond yourself. Interesting that you expect the rest of the world to live up to higher standards than you set for yourself.
_______________________________________________
How about the prevalence of pornography featuring POC that seeks only to eroticize them, to perpetuate myths about sexual prowess or genitalia size, or to feature them engaging in unsafe sex?
_______________________________________________
Are you serious? You are complaining because porn “Eroticizes” people? I have news for you, the entire purpose of porn is to “Erotocize”. By that statement you have shown that you are honestly not to be taken seriously. Being angry because porn makes sex objects out of people is like being angry at water for getting you wet. The entire purpose of porn is to erotocize. And you are now also getting upset because porn perpetuates myths about genital size? Do you actually read what you write? You are upset because porn features people of color with large dicks….um…..did it never occur to you that porn features pretty much EVERYBODY with large dicks? Do you also picket outside modeling agencies because they only cast attractive people? But on the bright side, no matter what goes wrong in your life, at least you can sit back, complain that it is all because of White Privilage and that completely absolves you from any responsibility in getting your ass off the couch and doing anything.
Cam
@The Gay Numbers:
Thank you, some valid examples finally.
The Gay Numbers
by the way – other example s of white privilege
The assumption about what objectivity means. For example- quit eoften people will say to me, “well you said that because you are black.” Like they don’t say things becaue they are white. Well you are defending gates because you are black. I have o point out “No I am defending Prof gates because I am using a single standard for gates as I w ould for someone white. That if this were a white person whose whom they had enteredd to arrest him. This would be wrong. The white privilege is where you don’t even recognize them as the same.” The point is that it privilege mucks with perception so that you are not being objective even when you t hink you are. You create double standards even where you didn’t think you were. A good example of that for me is Prop 8. The campaing there pressumed what people were going to think and feel in one instance, and ignored others in the other instances. Why? because they thought they knew the objective truth better than others.
MoHoTo
Getting paid in the mid-six figures for a tenured position where all you have to do is sit around and write tripe like this… Now THAT is a privilege.
c0rpusdelicti
@B:
Now, why is that my calling you “nig” makes you think of my comments as irrational? Why is my, let’s say, vehement disregard of your “feelings” also irrational? In the first case, I should say that my people frequently use the term “nigga” and derivations as a term of endearment. In the second case, well, I’m sorry, buster, but the integrity of your feelings really isn’t relevant to the point the author of the piece is trying to make.
And I really don’t understand what’s so offensive or derogatory or damnable about Chris’s appropriate and truthful acknowledgment of the fact that white people are, indeed, mostly ignorant when it comes to white privilege. Newsflash: the majority of white people have ALWAYS been wrong when it comes to race in this country. Fact. They have always insisted that its not as much of a problem as POC are making it out to be and POC have, of course, always disagreed. Time has always borne out the accuracy of the POC’s position.
What makes this instance any different?
Asher
Many of the comments prove the point. The anger and inability to accept the argument is a prime example of the white privileged the author is discussing.
“Whites are not taught to recognize how their status as white people confers on them many privileges.” — this is the truest statement in the whole posting.
Full Disclosure: I’m white and privileged.
Cam
@The Gay Numbers: You said “The assumption about what objectivity means. For example- quit eoften people will say to me, “well you said that because you are black.” Like they don’t say things becaue they are white.”
_______________________________________________________
But that is exactly what the author is doing. “Because you are white you think this.” So then where is he speaking from? Mixed Latino who also happens to be gay privilege? The fact is, the way people are raised, where they grew up, their childhood etc.. is always going to effect their opinions. Were the Jurors in the O.J Simpson case racist? Were they throwing around “Black Privilege”? Sometimes seeing everything as racial is just as wrong as people who think race never plays a part in anything.
Cam
@Asher: Yous said “”
Many of the comments prove the point. The anger and inability to accept the argument is a prime example of the white privileged the author is discussing.
“Whites are not taught to recognize how their status as white people confers on them many privileges.” — this is the truest statement in the whole posting.
Full Disclosure: I’m white and privileged.”
_____________________________________________________________
I’m sorry, but it’s an old trick to say “If you don’t agree with me, that proves my point.”
The Gay Numbers
The interesting thing amongst the retarded here is that they don’t get that there are different types of privilege. Race is only one of them. There is also privilege based on class, gender , religion, sexual orientation, you name it. Some are more powerful than others in our society.
Actually even more examples
Going into clubs and bars.
I will go into a 90 percent white bar, and feel a bit uncomfortable, and my white friends will not understand why i feel slightly uncomfortable regarding the racial make up. Whereas, these same friends have said on occasion “wow it would be weird going to” this or that that’s mostly all another race. It does not have to be black. I had one friend say that about going to an all chinese event. The point is that he had in his mind the idea of what “normal ” is. It is an assumption shared by many. Another example, in achievement, the assumption of what achievement is. I often call this the assumption that all white people got somewhere becaue they deserved it, but that race alone is enough to make people suspect about my accomplishments. I have seen this in the form that a white guy from a lower tier background , grades and experience, is given the pressumption of qualified because he speaks or acts the part.
I have a professor friends who speaks of how guys who are not publishing enough (one of the requirements for academia) will get by because they use those hidden cues of race. A black guy in most instances will be asked to prove he belongs in academia or any place else. Even with claims about affirmative action, if you look at the outcomes- this remains true. Yet, the crappy white guy (the Forrest Gump) can still make it but te ignorant black guy could not in th same way make it. That’s the way the privilege works. It’s not overt racism. it is the assumptions you make, and then bury as you go about your day.
Cam
@c0rpusdelicti: You said “And I really don’t understand what’s so offensive or derogatory or damnable about Chris’s appropriate and truthful acknowledgment of the fact that white people are, indeed, mostly ignorant when it comes to white privilege. Newsflash: the majority of white people have ALWAYS been wrong when it comes to race in this country. Fact. They have always insisted that its not as much of a problem as POC are making it out to be and POC have, of course, always disagreed. Time has always borne out the accuracy of the POC’s position.
What makes this instance any different?”
______________________________________________________
Ahhhh, the old “We’re always right, and you’re always wrong” argument. Will you be following that up with the “I know you are but what am I” argument?
The Gay Numbers
@Asher: The funny thing is asher. I am not angry. That’s again your projection, but you lack the objecivity to realize that. This is how the mindset of race works. You make somethin gup about me. I am supposed to accept your view as fact rather than opinion, and when I don’t then I am angry. The reality is that what you are doing is projecting what you would like to believe on to me. And that’s why you are not objective here.
The Gay Numbers
@Cam: He’s speaking about the assumptions people make. if you are not making the assumption , he’s not talking abou tyou. but you will be hard pressed to explain a lot of how things turn out but for occam’s razor. Ie, the assumption of white=objective can qualitatively and quantitatively be shown as an aspect of gay white culture. It requires one to look around and be objective about what they are seeing. That things don’t happen randomly.
The Gay Numbers
@Asher: I misread you rpost. Ignore my prior response.
Nathan Adler
@Asher:
“‘Whites are not taught to recognize how their status as white people confers on them many privileges.’ — this is the truest statement in the whole posting.”
Now try to envision the cries of POC when the white kids are taken to another classroom to go over the list of privileges afforded them… “because you’re white, kids, you only have to work half as hard!” Is that the sort of thing you’d find helpful?
And just for the record, free HBO is barely a privilege.
Cam
@The Gay Numbers: The problem with that is that everybody makes assumptions based on how they were raised, where they were raised, how much money they had etc… The problem is, that assumptions go both ways. Some people will believe that a white person will always get the job, it doesn’t matter whether or not it is true. Trust me, if some white Towney from outside Boston with a thick accent goes in and applies for a job, he or she will be considered stupid. If there is a minority sitting in the same interview room who doesn’t get the job, they may think it was because of race, but they don’t know that another minority didn’t get the job. They could think “That idiot from Boston was probably hired and not me” even though this isn’t true. In my old company we had an applicant complain to the state that they were qualified and not hired because of racism. The sad thing was, they never bothered to check and see who was actually hired for the job, so when the state checked up on the claim, found out that the person hired for the job was the same race and gender as the person complaining but they had more experience, the state of course dropped the complaint. But what was this situation? It wasn’t white privilege. It was the assumption of a racial issue where none was.
c0rpusdelicti
@Cam:
AIDS at this point in time is no longer the killer it was, it is preventable and it is controllable.
If you’re lucky enough to have good health insurance or to not live in abject poverty. Guess what color most of these folks are?
And how about the disengagement of gay advocacy groups that are color specific? They voluntarily separate themselves from participation in the mainstream gay groups and then blame those groups for not engaging
With the power dynamics being the way they are, yes, the onus falls on those with more social power to be more cognizant of that fact and to try to be more inclusive. Economic segregation tends to lead to social segregation. Of course when you’re ghettoized away from white society you’re going to form groups with those in similar straits. All the author of the article is doing is asking predominantly white LGBT groups to recognize their privilege and to work towards lessening it and, in so doing, it will help pave a path towards greater community. That’s it.
Blacks voted against marriage in the majority, at a higher percentage than Latinos, Whites, or Asians. Facts are Facts, to not report that would be to lose an opportunity for that “Engagement” you are complaining that the gay groups haven’t been doing.
Yes, a lot of Blacks voted for Prop 8.
Tell me, how many Black people are on the SCOTUS today?
How many Black senators do we have?
How many Black CEOs of Fortune 500 companies are there?
These are the people who hold the majority of the political power in the U.S. today, and have held it since time immemorial. If SCOTUS, the Senate, and the Corporations wanted gay marriage, we’d have it. Don’t blame Blacks for America.
The fact that you miss the point that the Mormons have been attacked far more often and far more virulently in here shows that you are looking at the world only in how it effects you. The Mormons are nearly 100% white, they have been brutalized rightfully so in the gay press, yet again, you expect everybody to reach out to you, and yet you never seem to look beyond yourself. Interesting that you expect the rest of the world to live up to higher standards than you set for yourself.
And I haaaaaaaaaaate Mormons and have missed nothing with regards to how much anger they’ve received and how much anger they deserve. I was just pointing out how Blacks, as a group, have become another kind of weird scapegoat for the gays, ESPECIALLY here on Queerty. Do stop putting words into my mouth or intentions into my head. It’s fucking annoying.
Are you serious? You are complaining because porn “Eroticizes” people? I have news for you, the entire purpose of porn is to “Erotocize”. By that statement you have shown that you are honestly not to be taken seriously. Being angry because porn makes sex objects out of people is like being angry at water for getting you wet. The entire purpose of porn is to erotocize. And you are now also getting upset because porn perpetuates myths about genital size? Do you actually read what you write? You are upset because porn features people of color with large dicks….um…..did it never occur to you that porn features pretty much EVERYBODY with large dicks? Do you also picket outside modeling agencies because they only cast attractive people? But on the bright side, no matter what goes wrong in your life, at least you can sit back, complain that it is all because of White Privilage and that completely absolves you from any responsibility in getting your ass off the couch and doing anything.
*sigh*
Porn is relevant to the extent that its one of the few gay venues in which POC are frequently represented and their representation frequently perpetuates destructive sexual stereotypes about POC. It’s like you’re taking the shallowest, most counter-productive reading of my comments. I’m not angry because porn makes sex objects of people; I’m pointing out that porn frequently makes sexual objects of POC using stereotypes and language fresh from the nineteenth century.
And, also, um, dude? You seem to have this fucked-up image of me sitting on a pleather couch at home, unemployed, collecting welfare, wearing a daishiki and reading Malcolm X, looking up only to shout incoherently about “blue-eyed devils” at the 700 Club.
Get it straight. I’m wearing a nice blue Penguin sweater, an American Apparel shirt, some vintage plaid polyester pants, and some leather loafers from Banana Republic. I’m at work, stupidly not working and commenting on this post. I’m fairly successful for my age, and I think I have a bright future ahead of me. I love white people. I have more white friends than black friends that I see on a regular basis (b/c I live in PDX, OR).
Your implicit characterization of me is, dare I say it, a bit racist.
c0rpusdelicti
@Cam:
Ahhhh, the old “We’re always right, and you’re always wrong” argument. Will you be following that up with the “I know you are but what am I” argument?
Well, given that this is verifiable (both in a factual and moral sense) I’ll respond to you, saying, “Past is prologue, gentleman.”*
*gentleman used in lieu of “muhfucka.” don’t wanna offend.
ML Sugie
Um, the biggest mistake of this piece is not linking to Peggy McIntosh’s article in the first place, which is available in so many places it takes half a second to find.
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html
If you haven’t read it, it’s ridiculous to try and knock the author of this piece about the use or content of it.
Luke
Wow. All I know is that I giggled at the term “capitalist pig-dogs”. That’s the best thing I’ve read in weeks. And any moron willing to use that in an argument isn’t worth reading any more.
A few issues:
1) You expect me (others like me to change). Why? I hate change. it’s annoying.
2) If there’s an issue then figure out how to fix it on your end. The only person you can ever change is yourself. Hating those with priviledge for your (or those around you) issues isn’t helping any. Expecting someone else to care isn’t either – do like under priviledged people have for centuries – band together and fix the internal culture then infuse it into the cultures around you in order to take over.
3) Anger is a good way to be thought foolish and pointless.
4) Seriously capitalist pig-dogs? That’s going to be at the top of my mind for the entire evening.
What was I talking about again?
Megyn
The biggest problem facing black America today is not white privilege; it is out-of-wedlock births.
c0rpusdelicti
@Luke:
What was I talking about again?
Yes, why are you typing and who let you?
dangerkidd
@c0rpusdelicti
I avoid at all costs the comments section of this site. But I knew this post was going to be a bloody four car pile up of crazy, reductive, offensive, and masturbatory interpretations that I just couldn’t not look.
I think your comments are spot on.
A few months ago I wrote a letter to the editor of queerty asking to consider making the comment threads a click into link- because they so often completely soured my experience of the posts…primarily because of how virulently racist they were (or at least naval gazily liberal and clinging to color blindness and some sort of mythical post racial landscape).
commenters are straight up calling you ‘uppity’ for not smiling or lowering your eyes at their vacuous yet lethal assertions regarding the reality of race in america-
it is almost funny to read the comments and then read the post again- it’s amazing how people can have so much self involvment and so little self awareness.
as a white teenager from the country, when I was first exposed to the literature, scholarship and narratives of oppression and white supremacy- it fucked me up. it made me blanch and knee jerk in crazy directions-(see above) to seek the truth of our experience often neccesitates the violent breaking of the body we think we know. it requires naming- radical reordering- self implication- responsibility…
so all i really want to say is THANK YOU c0rpusdelicti for carrying the torch- what is to give light must endure burning.
nakhone
To all the Whiteys out there: The truth hurts doesn’t it? Don’t forget that it also sets you free. Recognize it, embrace it, accept it, change it and move on!
B
You want to know I find your opinion irrelevant:
“Newsflash: the majority of white people have ALWAYS been wrong when it comes to race in this country.”
“And, for the record, I’d say that by and large white folks are blind, naive, ignorant, and unaware of how it feels to be a person of color in a predominantly white (at least most often portrayed as predominantly white) social subgroup. You know why? Because they’re fucking white!”
You are only hurting yourself. If you continue to be hateful, bitter, and cynical you will never be able to make your voice heard anywhere other than a blog posting.
Good luck and God’s speed.
Luke
@c0rpusdelicti: Most likely a capitalist pig-dog.
Still can’t get enough of that.
Seriously, you need to take a nice deep breath and relax. If you constantly focus on the indignity of the issue and your anger no one will ever really think much of your argument. You are expressive and even a little bit compelling in your arguments, but the anger conveyed just makes me want to laugh at you.
A simple lesson I’ve learned: You can’t force someone to agree with you or to change to accept you. Presenting yourself & your ideas in ways they can understand and are willing to accept will cause movement.
I don’t disagree with you that white privilege exists, but putting race (which has legal protections due to the civil rights movement) before sexuality in the gay community…doesn’t sound reasonable. The point of LGBT groups is to further the needs of LGBTs as a whole. Not any particular minority within the group.
Yuki
Uh… I’m gay. And not white. And I call myself gay. So… yeah. At the very least this article should’ve had examples; if there are tons of other problems that non-white gay people face, EXPLAIN THEM. Also, it was mentioned that not all people who are attracted to the same sex use “gay”, “bisexual”, or “lesbian”. What else would they use? Pansexual? Asexual? Something completely different? This article, quite honestly, made no sense.
Gay people are a minority. Gay minorities are even further… well, minorities. But the thing is, wouldn’t it be best to work toward something as a whole first even if it’s imperfect, *then* to work on the smaller things? We have bigger things to worry about right now (such as, y’know, constitutional protections against hate crimes as well as marriage rights) than “IT’S NOT ALL ABOUT YOU!!!”.
c0rpusdelicti
@dangerkidd:
Thanks a lot. To be very honest, I don’t experience much racism in the LGBT community and I guess I’ve been fairly lucky in that regard. Once I started reading Queerty, however, that perspective changed as the comments to certain posts in this community shocked me with both the virulence of the racism here and ignorance of it as racism as such.
Thanks for not seeing me as angry (which I’m not because I get angry b/c of more important things) or irrational (because I’m unapologetically passionate about this subject) or bigoted (don’t know where the fuck that came from, must be projection).
Thanks for giving me hope.
eagledancer
“white privilege”-when I used to do racism and discrimination workshops for a major school district, and the topic of “white privilege” would come up, there would always be a few members of the audience who would protest they “weren’t really white.” They would touch their skin and say, “I’m beige,” “I’m cream colored,” “I’m pink.” Talk about unclear on the concept lol.
Nathan Adler
@Luke:
c0rpusdelicti is really one to talk about capitalist-pig dogs, sin’t he?
“I’m wearing a nice blue Penguin sweater, an American Apparel shirt, some vintage plaid polyester pants, and some leather loafers from Banana Republic. I’m at work, stupidly not working and commenting on this post. I’m fairly successful for my age, and I think I have a bright future ahead of me.” And tomorrow I will be protesting myself!
…Or does he think faux retro/hipster capitalists are okay?
dangerkidd
@ luke
you’re a patronizing jack ass. which i’m not always against, but you’re not good enough at it to be amusing.
there’s this poliical tradition of discrediting subversive opinions by calling them hysterical.
this isn’t a joke. nor is it the best arena for a frank discussion of the matter at hand.
i’m not going to even get into the last paragraph of your comment- b/c it would just look like this- you fucking retarded asshole- seriously!!? what?! wha?
im never commenting again. fuck it. im out.
c0rpusdelicti
@Luke:
I think you’re confusing my forthrightness and (admitted) vulgarity for anger. Let me be clear.
I’m not angry.
I’m Real Talk.
All too frequently in American history, those who point out racial injustice are told that they are too “angry” and that they must be more conciliatory to those who are spouting divisive and ignorant bullshit. I’m sorry, but I find such an approach both demeaning and useless.
I don’t think that the LGBT community needs to put race before anything else, and I don’t think that’s what Chris wants. What he wants, and what I want, is to open a fearless dialog about this topic.
And re: Capitalist Pig-Dog. It’s a funny phrase, partially because it’s stereotypical of what College Socialists often actually say. I use it, like, half-ironically. I do blame capitalism for a lot of what’s wrong in American society, though.
c0rpusdelicti
@B:
Well, sir, the question wasn’t about irrelevance, it was concerning irrationality.
And please do elucidate as to how my quoted comments are wrong in either a factual or moral sense and then as to how you came to this conclusion.
Please.
c0rpusdelicti
@Nathan Adler:
Blah, blah, blah, thank heaven for consignment shops, amirite?
And while I may be something of a hypocritical College Socialist, I’m a hell of a lot more pragmatic.
Ain’t nothing wrong with that.
Pam Ranch
@Fitz: @Fitz:
hmmmm…you must be enjoying the white priviledge!
Anthony
I love how the first few comments were so dismissive of this article. This article didn’t support their beliefs so they deemed it not credible enough. Those people who left such comments should really take a look at themselves.
dizzyspins
Sorry Im late to comment, but I had to put down my whip and stop flagellating myself.
Mr. McDonald-Dennis who works at an elitist institution like Bryn Mawr but purports to be an expert on the plight of the underclass. Whatever his origins, McDonald-Dennis is obviously firmly ensconsed in the ivory tower of academia. He needs to publish poorly-written screeds like this to justify his salary and his department.
And while white privilege does exist, and white gays are as guilty of their assumptions as white straights, what has the Black community does for gays? Im suppossed to be sensitive to the unique needs and challenges of their community, but they can denigrate my community and fight to deny my rights?
Nathan Adler
@c0rpusdelicti:
Absolutely nothing wrong with that! I’m just giving you shit ‘cuz I’m feeling all smug and privilegey today.
And just so ya know, I’ve found your arguments here very compelling. If you’d written the original story, I think the response might have been more favourable. I just re-read it and really, it’s a terrible article. Long on buz words and short on meaning.
Sam
Not surprising that many of the commenters here can’t fathom white privilege. They’re soaking in it.
Try this one on for size, folks who’ve said this is “racist”: people of color can NEVER be racist towards whites. Racism is a system of oppression which only exists as perpetuated by whites towards people of color (in the U.S., at least).
nakhone
@c0rpusdelicti: I love you! Go get them.
Cam
@c0rpusdelicti: You said
I said….AIDS at this point in time is no longer the killer it was, it is preventable and it is controllable.
You said…If you’re lucky enough to have good health insurance or to not live in abject poverty. Guess what color most of these folks are?
_______________________________-
Funny, you left out the part where I pointed out that it is preventable. It is interesting, you place all the responsibility for caring for people with AIDS upon the shoulders of whites, I don’t see you placing any responsibility for the prevalence of a 100% preventable disease in these communities. Would that be because these “White” organizations have pushed AIDS education….the fact that it is ignored is not their fault yet apparently you would like to throw all of the blame at the white community.
_______________
I said….And how about the disengagement of gay advocacy groups that are color specific? They voluntarily separate themselves from participation in the mainstream gay groups and then blame those groups for not engaging
You said…With the power dynamics being the way they are, yes, the onus falls on those with more social power to be more cognizant of that fact and to try to be more inclusive. Economic segregation tends to lead to social segregation. Of course when you’re ghettoized away from white society you’re going to form groups with those in similar straits. All the author of the article is doing is asking predominantly white LGBT groups to recognize their privilege and to work towards lessening it and, in so doing, it will help pave a path towards greater community.
That isn’t what you originally said. And as for the onus falling on those with “More social Power”. No, that is B.S. if somebody sees a group that is doing what they want to do…here is an idea. How about joining them? If there is a predominantly minority group that wants to fight for gay marriage, then go out, raise money and run an ad campaign, or partner with other groups etc… you can’t voluntarily exclude yourself then complain that you are excluded. You are like the girl at a dance that stares at her feet all night and then complains that nobody asked her to dance.
—————————————–
I said …..Blacks voted against marriage in the majority, at a higher percentage than Latinos, Whites, or Asians. Facts are Facts, to not report that would be to lose an opportunity for that “Engagement” you are complaining that the gay groups haven’t been doing.
You said…..Yes, a lot of Blacks voted for Prop 8.
Tell me, how many Black people are on the SCOTUS today?
How many Black senators do we have?
How many Black CEOs of Fortune 500 companies are there?
Funny, when my point was made you change the suject, you said it was unfiar to say that blacks had opposed prop 8 etc… I pointed out that….they did as a majority of the community and suddenly you start talking about completely separate issues. It would make discussing issues with you much more adult if when somebody makes a point that is valid you actually accepted it. That way people would know that you have an open mind and aren’t simply sitting there spouting off pre-recorded opinions with no willingness to listen.
You said….And, also, um, dude? You seem to have this fucked-up image of me sitting on a pleather couch at home, unemployed, collecting welfare, wearing a daishiki and reading Malcolm X, looking up only to shout incoherently about “blue-eyed devils” at the 700 Club.
Get it straight. I’m wearing a nice blue Penguin sweater, an American Apparel shirt, some vintage plaid polyester pants, and some leather loafers from Banana Republic. I’m at work, stupidly not working and commenting on this post. I’m fairly successful for my age, and I think I have a bright future ahead of me. I love white people. I have more white friends than black friends that I see on a regular basis (b/c I live in PDX, OR).
Your implicit characterization of me is, dare I say it, a bit racist.
_________________________________
Sorry, your assumption of my thoughts about you is racist, I never once said anything about money or that you were on welfare, or that you were or were not wearing a Penguin sweater. I said that you sounded like the type of person who blames everything that goes wrong on other issues, people, whatever. Additionally, The fact that you list the labels of what you are wearing as a sign of success would however lead me to believe that you are somewhat shallow.
Lonnie
I love it when professional academics with no connection to real life struggles against oppression get up on their platforms and denounce the movements I’m a part of. Go to hell, Professor! Us activsits here on the ground don’t see homophobia, transphobia, biphobia, sexism, racism, nationalism or any other form of oppression as “separate issues” as you queer academic seem to insist we do. Keep writing your articles, keep attacking without guiding, and keep your ideas spilling out of your ass.
It’s so pathetic that all these closet “activists” writing from their ivory towers only give a fuck about the movement now that tens of thousands of ordinary working class lgbt folks are fighting back and organizing for our rights.
Cam
@Sam: you said…
“”
Not surprising that many of the commenters here can’t fathom white privilege. They’re soaking in it.
Try this one on for size, folks who’ve said this is “racist”: people of color can NEVER be racist towards whites. Racism is a system of oppression which only exists as perpetuated by whites towards people of color (in the U.S., at least).”
___________
Oh please, that burned out old line about minorities not being able to be racist went out with the late 70’s Racism is the judgement of somebody else based upon their race. End of story. What you are trying to do is excuse the virulent racism in the minority communities with claims that it cannot possibly exist. I have news for you, when Mexicans target blacks with gang shootings, when blacks target whites, when whites target blacks, it is all racist. Your trying to intellectualize it away by saying that racism only exists as perpetuated by whites is laughable. Why don’t you go up to any Asian person you can find who grew up near South Central L.A. and ask them if African Americans are racist. I have a feeling you won’t like the answer you get.
Cam
@c0rpusdelicti: One last time, you really should rethink your ideas on my characterizations of you. The fact that I am debating with you back and forth means that I am interested in what you are saying. If I thought you were an idiot with no brains I wouldn’t bother arguing with you back and forth. Look, we may disagree on these issues, but I think there is something we can all agree on, Madonna has man arms.
robco
The concept of white privilege is a theory and has absolutely zero quantitative evidence backing it. It’s not even a theory and barely a hypothesis. I’m sure people like Michael Jordan and Will Smith deal with difficulties less. Why? Because it’s not racial privilege, it’s class privilege. OJ demonstrated that it’s about the money, not solely skin color. Yes POCs are more likely to be in the lower socioeconomic classes, but rednecks and poor white trash folks aren’t exactly displayed prominently in the media. How many articles do you see in the Advocate about poor gays? As a poor, white gay male with poor, white gay male friends, I can tell you we do exist.
I can’t make LGBT POCs more visible in their respective communities. I cant undo being born Irish-American. And I’m fairly liberal – to a point. America is the land of opportunity, not the land of guarantees. If you want something, you’re going to have to take it – it won’t be given to you. Contrary to popular contrived belief, not all of us whiteys are born with silver spoons in our mouths, we have to study hard in school. Not all of us are legacies like GW Bush and have to work to get into college. We don’t all have wealthy powerful connections to get us good jobs either.
Show us some real studies with real statistics to back up the assertions. Otherwise, it’s just blowing smoke. Get some real data from real social sciences, not the hypotheses of some bored AES professor.
Cam
@Anthony: you said “I love how the first few comments were so dismissive of this article. This article didn’t support their beliefs so they deemed it not credible enough. Those people who left such comments should really take a look at themselves.”
_________________________
Anthony, you really should re-read the first few comments, they were mostly pointing out that the author made broad generalizations with out any facts to back them up. That isn’t a scholarly article, that is just whining. If you are going to say something and charge a group with activities, you lean in a Jr. High English class that you always put in some supporting data. This article was lacking that and was therefore very poorly written.
Cam
@dangerkidd: You said “as a white teenager from the country, when I was first exposed to the literature, scholarship and narratives of oppression and white supremacy- it fucked me up. it made me blanch and knee jerk in crazy directions-(see above) to seek the truth of our experience often neccesitates the violent breaking of the body we think we know. it requires naming- radical reordering- self implication- responsibility…
so all i really want to say is THANK YOU c0rpusdelicti for carrying the torch- what is to give light must endure burning.”
__________________________________
I see Freshmen sociology 101 rearing it’s ugly head.
Eshto
WITHOUT denying that white privilege describes a social reality (it does), I have to agree that this piece is almost completely devoid of any real content. It reads mostly like postmodern, deconstructionist nonsense. Ironic, since this sort of empty-yet-complex-sounding rhetoric is so inextricably linked to the Ivory Tower. The language itself sounds privileged.
This really pains me, because white privilege is real, and as a white person I have had to come to terms with it. It is very true that racism in today’s society is not blatant – it’s hidden, covert. White people do benefit from enormous privileges that, since we are not aware of them, we have the luxury of taking for granted. And yes, as someone said above, people of color do get dealt the “race card” whether they like it or not, and whether or not they choose to play it.
White privilege is real. But it doesn’t sound real in this editorial – it sounds like a bullshit, abstract concept that only means something in academic discourse but not in the real world.
Rob
@REBELComx: Please reread your statement so that you may possibly see what a load of crap it is. You’re really, really reaching with that one.
Kevin Aviance – LEGENDARY drag performer based in NYC
Keith Boykin – Bestselling Author and activist based in NYC
Camignon Antoine (sp?) – CBS News on LOGO Correspondent
All are gay peeps of color, all are out, and let me tell you there are PLENTY more where that came from. The fact that you don’t know who these people are is kind of a part of the problem. We have a gay media structure who would have you believe two-bit reality rejects like that Ben guy from Supermodel or that lesbian from Top Model are more worthy of attention than any of these people who happen to be black, and are doing real work in the community. And you say that there are no POCs at the GLAAD event because there are no high-profile LGBT people of color? Really? Wow.
c0rpusdelicti
@Cam:
Funny, you left out the part where I pointed out that it is preventable.
No, I didn’t. Wealth, insurance, and belonging to an in-group are all attributes that aid in HIV prevention. Just as abject poverty tends to breed the conditions that make HIV prevention a lot tougher.
It is interesting, you place all the responsibility for caring for people with AIDS upon the shoulders of whites,
Where the fuck did I say that, do tell.
I don’t see you placing any responsibility for the prevalence of a 100% preventable disease in these communities. Would that be because these “White” organizations have pushed AIDS education….the fact that it is ignored is not their fault yet apparently you would like to throw all of the blame at the white community.
Once again, where did I say that? I said that the disengagement of the gay community from the HIV/AIDS issue despite the rising rates of HIV/AIDS among communities of color is proof of white privilege and your response is……..”It’s a Black problem, we’ve done all we can to help those people.”
Not a compelling argument.
That isn’t what you originally said.
What did I originally say?
And as for the onus falling on those with “More social Power”. No, that is B.S. if somebody sees a group that is doing what they want to do…here is an idea. How about joining them?
Well, that’s pretty easy to say for a person for whom there isn’t any dire social stratification based on race standing in his or her way.
Whhhiiiiii….priiiivv…..
If there is a predominantly minority group that wants to fight for gay marriage, then go out, raise money and run an ad campaign, or partner with other groups etc… you can’t voluntarily exclude yourself then complain that you are excluded. You are like the girl at a dance that stares at her feet all night and then complains that nobody asked her to dance.K/i>
Who says these groups voluntarily exclude themselves? Maybe they have no choice based on the socio-economic niche in which they find themselves operating. You expect poor, doubly oppressed people to form groups as powerful as those formed by the most racially advantaged group in this country and then you expect both groups to join forces without any conflict over their mutually distinct origins.
Priiivvvvvv…..
Funny, when my point was made you change the suject, you said it was unfiar to say that blacks had opposed prop 8 etc…
Where did I say that?
I pointed out that….they did as a majority of the community and suddenly you start talking about completely separate issues.
Hahahahaha! Completely separate?! Maaannn, get the fuck outta here with that weak shit.
“YOU CAN’T DISCUSS RACIAL POLITICS IN AMERICA BY DISCUSSING….RACIAL POLITICS IN AMERICA! THAT’S IRRELEVANT!”
It would make discussing issues with you much more adult if when somebody makes a point that is valid you actually accepted it. That way people would know that you have an open mind and aren’t simply sitting there spouting off pre-recorded opinions with no willingness to listen.
N-word Please.
Sorry, your assumption of my thoughts about you is racist, I never once said anything about money or that you were on welfare, or that you were or were not wearing a Penguin sweater. I said that you sounded like the type of person who blames everything that goes wrong on other issues, people, whatever. Additionally, The fact that you list the labels of what you are wearing as a sign of success would however lead me to believe that you are somewhat shallow.
Ooooh, but somehow you manage to strike the exact chord the Rush Limbaugh’s of the world rely upon when they start ranting about angry blacks hungry for social justice sitting at home with their 12 kids and using food stamps to buy steak and liquor, what with your saying I should get off my couch and do something for myself.
Just because I think that white privilege exists and is worth discussing doesn’t mean I’m one of those angry blacks suffering from a “victimization complex” or whatever bullshit white racists trot out whenever a black person gets too uppity.
And I am fairly shallow, but that’s neither here, nor there.
Finally, I’ll be very honest with you. You don’t seem very smart. You seem to have quite the problem with reading comprehension, nuance, and the basics of argument.
You should probably bone up on those things.
c0rpusdelicti
@robco: @robco:
The concept of white privilege is a theory and has absolutely zero quantitative evidence backing it.
HELLO FRIEND. HERE IS A BOOK YOU SHOULD READ FOR I SENSE A DIRE NEED FOR EDUCATION.
http://www.amazon.com/Speaking-Treason-Fluently-Anti-Racist-Reflections/dp/1593762070
Cam
@c0rpusdelicti: Your post is idiotic. The fact that you call somebody who disagrees with you “Rush Limbaugh” is the sad fallback of somebody with no case. The fact additionally that you try to say that my disagreeing with you is a sign of my not being intelligent is again, the sad fallback of somebody who just can’t handle people disagreeing with them. your petulant attacks, your use of the clothes you are wearing to try to prove that you are a valid person and your name calling of somebody who disagrees with you all serves to point out that you seem to be a shallow crybaby. The fact that you claim to have more white friends then blacks would only seem to mean that you like handing around them because black friends would call you on your B.S. while overly P.C. whites would probably back down if you called them a racist anytime they disagreed with you.
To prove what type of arguer you are I’ll just paste one portion of your last argument. Re posting over and over again is just getting too ridiculously long for a blog.
I said “Funny, you left out the part where I pointed out that it is preventable.”
You said….No, I didn’t. Wealth, insurance, and belonging to an in-group are all attributes that aid in HIV prevention. Just as abject poverty tends to breed the conditions that make HIV prevention a lot tougher.
Actually no, insurance, wealth, etc… have nothing to do with prevention. Not having unprotected sex, and not shooting drugs are what prevention is all about. So even in something as easy as wearing a condom or not sticking a needle in your arm, you are STILL trying to pass blame off onto whites for AIDS transmission rates in the minority community. Do you see what your mindset is? Do you see how you try to blame EVERYTHING, not just whats valid, but EVERYTHING on whites. This is not a mindset that will set you up well in life, you can’t go through life not accepting responsibility for anything. It is a sad way to live….oh, but wait, you have your nice blue penguin sweater, so I guess you’ll be ok.
Rob
BTW, I don’t really think the article is all that well-written, but I am well aware of the concept of White Privilege as written by Peggy McIntosh, and I studied a lot of that stuff in school. I’m just now realizing that for 90% of the people commenting, this is an entirely new concept, and I suppose they’re reacting as can be expected. If you’ve never come into contact with this concept before or studied/discussed it, this is the wrong place and the wrong piece of writing to be introduced to it by. Therefore, I’ll give a pass to all the whining and defensive posturing that the article and the idea seems to be inspiring in so many of you.
Cam
@c0rpusdelicti: Oh, and lastly….you said. “”Ooooh, but somehow you manage to strike the exact chord the Rush Limbaugh’s of the world rely upon when they start ranting about angry blacks hungry for social justice sitting at home with their 12 kids and using food stamps to buy steak and liquor, what with your saying I should get off my couch and do something for myself.”
________________________________-
Actually dumbass, “Get off your couch and do something” that I was calling you a do nothing complainer, the type of person who sits around bitching instead of going out and trying to effect change. The fact that you automatically assumed I was referencing some black stereotypes would again seem to show that you assume anything said to you is race based. How sad for you that you live in a world where you can automatically dismiss any criticism directed at you by simply saying “They’re just saying that because they are racist.” Nope, sometimes, you are being stupid, sometimes you are just wrong, sometimes, you do not do everything 100% perfect, and guess what. The people that point that out to you aren’t evil racists, they are just telling it like it is. But I’m sure you’ll find some way to claim that I called you all manner of racist words that were hidden in my post. If you try hard enough you can imagine anything that will back up the opinion you already have of the world..
Cam
@Rob: You said “Therefore, I’ll give a pass to all the whining and defensive posturing that the article and the idea seems to be inspiring in so many of you.”
Many of the posts weren’t defensive, I was commenting that as a professor from a well respected university the article wasn’t well written. Then of course people came in and started getting heated. The fact that somebody agrees with what the author wrote in no way changes the fact that it was a poorly written article.
The Gay Numbers
Do those who deny the factual reality of white privilege also deny the existence of heterosexual privilege?
Are you saying there is no privilege with being straight in America outside of what you find in the laws? Are you saying the only one who can gain from the privilege of being heterosexual are those who are homophobes? Your straight friends don’t gain any benefits from being straight that you don’t from being in the minority as a gay person?
Because if you believe there is heterosexual privilege, your entire reason for denial of white privilege as you know comes into question.
I do not expect any of you to answer the question honestly. Not now that you have backed yourself into an objective corner. That’s what I meant above about being objective. Objectively speaking, is your argument tenable? The answer is that it can not be if youa rehear bitching about how gays are treated.
By the way, we are not really discussing anything particularly complicated here. It is another way of discussing in-groups and out-groups dynamics that are well document effects in group dyanamics and business. My friend is a consultant, and he has to discuss these issues all the time when going into a foreign country so that people can cope with the dominant sense of norms in those cultures for those not familar with addressing norms that are not their own. The only problem man of you really have with it is the mirror it places in your face. No one likes to deal with their own shit. So, your response here is not that surprising. But it is lacking in self awareness of yourself and your cultural baggage.
There is nothing particularly academic about any of this. So, the attempts to demonize from my perspective as someone who has only ever worked in the corporations is funny.
Cam
Night all! Remember, Black, White, Latin, Asian, etc… keep your eye on the Maine, and NJ marriage fights, help out if you can!
Oh, and c0rpusdelicti, I hear Banana republic has some lovely new Penguin sweaters, perhaps you can go there and buy even more self esteem.
TomE
@Chris: Fellow adoptee C.: “Neat” how folks who grew ’round others who look alot like them take that kinda sh*t for granted and all eh?
The Gay Numbers
@Rob: Yeah, we also somewhat see these concepts in business when addressing cross culturally issues of someone going abroad. I have a friend who lived in China for 2 years. He is a white guy, and it was the first time where he lived in a culture in which white did not produce any privilege. His view of race, when he came back, was completely different than when he left.
Cam
@Cam: Ugh, LAST Post…. you said “Do those who deny the factual reality of white privilege also deny the existence of heterosexual privilege? ”
_________________________________
Of COURSE there is! There is ALWAYS privilege with being int he majority, my problem was with the article as written it was poorly done. Then people came in and started bashing all whites and I was responding to their racist nasty posts. However, Whites make up a majority of the country, they hold much of the money, of course there is privilege tied with being upper class, in the majority, etc…. There is always situational privilege by birth. Do rich white kids on the whole start off with a big head start? Of course they do~! Do Will Smith’s kids have more privilege than a white kid from Claxton GA. Of course. I was never denying that being born into a majority is a better launching pad. I was commenting that the author doesn’t know how to write a simple position paper. The problem is many of the commenters, who agree with a persons opinion will then try to pretend that that person is infallible and any criticism of them is akin to racism.
c0rpusdelicti
@Cam:
The fact that you call somebody who disagrees with you “Rush Limbaugh” is the sad fallback of somebody with no case.
Where did I say that you were equivalent to Rush Limbaugh?
The fact additionally that you try to say that my disagreeing with you is a sign of my not being intelligent is again, the sad fallback of somebody who just can’t handle people disagreeing with them.
Where did I say that your disagreement makes you unintelligent?
your use of the clothes you are wearing to try to prove that you are a valid person
Well, I thought I’d constructed a pretty nice image of the person you seemed to think you were arguing against and I had to counterpoint it with reality. My bad?
and your name calling of somebody who disagrees with youall serves to point out that you seem to be a shallow crybaby.
Hah!
Actually no, insurance, wealth, etc… have nothing to do with prevention.
REAAAAALLLLY? (Please, reader, imagine that said in the best Vincent Price voice).
Insurance doesn’t help with seeing doctors? Who can reliably inform you as to the best ways to protect yourself from HIV? Wealth doesn’t lead to better educational opportunities which, once again, helps bolster the spread of HIV prevention through the effective dissemination of knowledge?
That isn’t even to say how hard it is to buy a box of condoms when you have to choose between that and, well, food.
Not having unprotected sex, and not shooting drugs are what prevention is all about.
Yes. But HIV/AIDS prevention, like most issues in the adult world is multivalent. It has layers. Like an onion. Or a cake.
So even in something as easy as wearing a condom or not sticking a needle in your arm, you are STILL trying to pass blame off onto whites for AIDS transmission rates in the minority community.
Where did I say I blame whites for AIDS transmission rates in the minority community?
Do you see what your mindset is? Do you see how you try to blame EVERYTHING, not just whats valid, but EVERYTHING on whites. This is not a mindset that will set you up well in life, you can’t go through life not accepting responsibility for anything.
Blah, blah, blah, I didn’t say this that’s why I called you stupid.
It is a sad way to live….oh, but wait, you have your nice blue penguin sweater, so I guess you’ll be ok.
I mean, it is a pretty sweet sweater.
c0rpusdelicti
@Cam:
I hear Banana republic has some lovely new Penguin sweaters, perhaps you can go there and buy even more self esteem.
Oh, honey, when I need that I just whip out muh big black diiiiiiick.
At least all gay men can bond over being bitches.
jjm16
I think one unique perspective that black gay men in particular have is that many within the mainstream gay community-the LGBT public face-fail to practice what they preaches regarding acceptance and not being overtly prejudiced and condescending toward others.. namely toward black and hispanic guys some white gays casually as being inherently stereotypical.
In this sense, white gay guys who represent the male/gay component of the LGBT community consider themselves perfect and socially advanced as humanists-far from the truth-who can do no wrong. But this is amazingly far wrong the truth, which is why we see such tension between the two identities(sexuality and race). This tension does much harm to both groups and the progressive agendas of those within.
Eshto
God you all sound like complete idiots.
Thus proving to me without a doubt that trying to bring abstract academic concepts like “white privilege” out into the real world always results in an epic FAIL.
Someone way above had the idea of focusing on specific EXAMPLES that we could all work on as a community. That would be nice. Like, the author says people of color might have different priorities than whites. Okay, so let’s specify these demographics, and what their particularities are, and use credible sociological data to back up those findings, and then come up with an idea about how to use this information in a constructive manner. Hmmm??
Everything else is just bullshit.
Eshto
@jjm16:
That’s not a specific example of anything, that’s just a baseless and meaningless generalization.
FAIL.
robco
@c0rpusdelicti
Thanks for proving my point. You linked to a collection of essays from a single whitey’s perspective. Where are the studies? Where is the data? Where is the analysis? There isn’t any. That’s my criticism of the concept of white privilege and quite honestly, of many college/university ethnic studies departments. They focus too much on qualitative (essays, case studies, personal experiences) than quantitative (facts, figures, statistics).
The point being that the focus needs to be on helping people in the lower socioeconomic strata. By doing so, you will disproportionately help racial/ethnic minorities. More importantly, you will help the ones who really need it. But I also stand by the assertion that only opportunity can be offered. I, nor any other whitey, can force POCs to take them.
I can’t change the fact that more African-American kids are born out of wedlock, or make fathers stay around to help raise their kids. By the same token, I can’t force other gay men to put down the Tina pipe and quit destroying their lives and having lots of unprotected sex. Some of the difficulties we face as a community come from outside, but some are messes of our own making. We do face issues with “hetrosexism” (I really hate that term) and discrimination. But we also have some work we need to do to change our own lives for the better. LBGTs are more likely to smoke (another area I’ll cop to, but I finally quit – along with meth, that wasn’t easy) and that needs to stop. Liquor companies advertise to us a lot because… yeah, probably could stand a little less of that too.
And as for privilege, it also comes with the most true axiom of how to succeed – it isn’t what you know, it’s who you know. If you have connections, you’re set. Most people get jobs – good jobs – not from having good skills or superior education (though Ivy League schools have great ones, I have friends who went to schools such as Stanford and Cornell and get leads all the time), it’s about knowing the right people. Unfortunately that needs to change, but I’ve seen people of all races guilty of it. We tend to trust those and choose those who are familiar to us.
TomE
“White Privilege” is a term developed within, and deployed during, the past decade to allow for otherwise-unemployable university professors to make a living.
TomE
**sheeesh**
TomE
@Eshto: Your blind adherence to – and espousal of – positivism worries me. Remember to always wear a condom.
c0rpusdelicti
@robco:
Thanks for proving my point. You linked to a collection of essays from a single whitey’s perspective. Where are the studies? Where is the data? Where is the analysis? There isn’t any
Well, what you would’ve learned had you gone to your local book store, found the book, and flipped through it is that the author does cite sources, studies, research data, and analyses.
There is, despite your statements to the contrary, tons of research on white privilege/racism and the effects it has on POC.
And look,
We tend to trust those and choose those who are familiar to us.
This is pretty much the essence of white privilege. I don’t think that individual Blacks are completely absolved of any reponsibility for their own fate. What I’m saying that a form of white privilege exists which perpetuates the racism systemic in American society and that Black America needs this to be dismantled before opportunity is truly freely given.
TomE
Y’all needa “read” more maths: Objective that.
Thom
fighting racism with racism….good luck. I’m sure you’ll convince all the whites about how ignorant and prejudiced they are by using this method.
The Gay Numbers
@Cam: Once you amidt the basic thesis of the article there is little that your protest of the thesis lies upon other than to engage in strawmen about scope of argument.
robco
We tend to trust those who are familiar to us – regardless of race or gender. People tend to recommend people for jobs who they know professionally or personally. Yeah, I’ve seen the “studies” the book references. It’s the same tired old data rehashed again and again. POCs students aren’t achieving and it’s all whitey’s fault. What the studies describe isn’t “white privilege” it’s racism. Call it what it is.
I guess it depends on your perspective. I see programs at my school and at others that bend over backward trying to get POCs to go to school and succeed. Almost none directed at disadvantaged whites. I see POCs who come from well-to-do backgrounds who take advantage of these programs even though they don’t need them. Help people who are economically disadvantaged and break the class barrier – it’s far more of a hindrance and perpetuates the “good ol’ boys club”. It’s about money in this society – if you have enough people will kiss your ass regardless of your skin color.
If you want to talk about racism, then talk about it as racism, leave bullshit constructs like white privilege out of it. Yes, there is racism in the LBGT community. Yes, there is homophobia in communities of color, especially when religion – the bane of modern humanity – is involved. But finger pointing and placing blame doesn’t help anyone.
What this really comes down to is the resentment over the fight for same-sex marriage and how it’s a “white issue”. If LBGT POCs believe that, fine. Don’t help out. But don’t fight against it either. If LBGT POCs have other priorities, they’re welcome to fight for those instead. But continuing to try and guilt whiteys into helping POCs just breeds resentment, try a different strategy. I’m not going to apologize for being who I am – either my ethnicity or my sexual orientation.
The Gay Numbers
@jjm16: That’s exactly the point. Some, as I have started to feel, believe that the point of gay rights equality for some gay whites is not equality, but to restore to them their right to be privileged as their white straight counter parts are. Thus, many gay blacks probably feel ‘why bother if you are not planning to count me on the equal treatment?” Now, with regard to laws, it is easy tos ay we are all going to be equal, but then what happens with the rest of society after that?
The Gay Numbers
@Eshto: i gave specific examples, and people still denied the existence of white privilege. i even compared it to heterosexual privilege to give an comparison to how it works. i compared it to cultural norms of all sorts. still denial. It’s not about the facts. It’s about the belief system that wants to deny the existence of white privilege. your argument is a little like expecting me to prove to birthers that pres obama is in fact american. or in other words if you want to pretend there are no concrete examples when those examples are given – ther eis little that anyone can do besides ignore you.
The Gay Numbers
@robco: you lost me when you basically said you saw the evidence but decided it is “tired.” Meaning you are another flat earther. Flat earther deny facts they do not like in favor of believes. Basically, there are peo out there who believe the earth is flat, and there is no evidence that you can ever present that will convince them otherwise. You present a futile sitution in which all you have to do to address any argument is say “I don’t buy it.’ it requires nothing of you because it is faith, not facts you want.
robco
No, the evidence for white privilege doesn’t exist. The evidence for racism in the US does. That’s a big difference. There is no evidence in support of creationism, there is loads of support for natural selection.
The fact that POCs are more likely to be arrested and incarcerated for violating the law isn’t white privilege, it’s racism. There’s a big difference. There is no evidence for white privilege – indeed you can’t even get a solid definition of it. There is plenty of evidence for racism. Make sense?
It’s like trying to defend “intelligent design”. It’s not a real concept. It’s creationism repackaged. If you want to say there’s racism, call is racism. Don’t try to sugarcoat it by calling it something else.
And just for shits and giggles – if you had an advantage over another – fair or unfair – how willing would you be to give it up? You can never count on a person to do the right thing. The only thing you can ever count on a human being to do is to act in their own self-interest.
Ricky
More examples how come there separate prides that shows that there are some things lacking in the “white privilege pride” that men of color are not getting to start separate prides.
How come in most major cities there are hiv/aids organizations whose clientele is mostly white and separate organizations who cater to men of color.
white privilege does not discriminate wither you are homosexual, heterosexual, transgendered, a man of color, muslim, baptist, jewish or any other group. Just take the case of Obama feeling he had to back down on an issue that he felt strongly about because his white privileged constituents got up in arms about.
Peter Frriend
This article is fingerpointing masquerading as explanation.
Example:
“Moreover, people of color who are attracted to the same sex may not even use the terms “gay”, “lesbian” or “bisexual.”
okay, so how do we even begin talk to you then if you don’t have language to share with us?
you make a blanket statement like this and offer no examples.
It’s not rational discourse.
It’s whining.
When the Harvard professor was stupidly arrested last month, I was the first person saying to my friends we can’t begin to understand how a black man feels when the police comes to his door.
But in the final analysis, i also saw it as an abuse of power and not a racially motivated act.
I’ve fought against homophobia, dragphobia, Transphobia, bisexual phobia, but always with people who were more than willing to meet me half way and explain what was outside my personal experience.
Chuck
Take home message: black people are mad but they can’t say specifically what they are mad about.
So what’s new?
Ricky
Most Black/Men of Color I know use Same Gender Loving (SGL) I have no clue what terms Transgendered use but I am sure they have some.
I do not think the author intended to start another debate on race just to pronounce that there are certain advantages to being Caucasian that is in-grained into the American Society.
Trey
@The Gay Numbers: lol…i thought you nailed it. drawing parallels between white privilege and heterosexual (heteronormative) privilege was simplicity itself. nevertheless, some people will always be willfully ignorant.
jay
It seems like since Prop 8 passing there have been a lot more of these “blame white gays for racism” articles. And of course, the majority of black Democrats voting to take away gay rights got twisted around to being the fault of racist gays who didn’t do enough outreach, education, blah blah blah. Stinks of bullshit to me.
Peter Frriend
just read the author bio and even more disappointed in this essay.
As a scholar he should know better than to make unsubstantiated claims and vague generalizations.
Guess now we know why college graduates can’t write.
F for you Mr. Assistant Dean
Chuck
To the author:
Divided We Fall
oh boy
@Chris: Contrary to popular opinion – not all whites are priviledged. Just go visit the Ozarks. Many are poor and many work their asses off. And many have worked their asses off to get to where they are. They worked hard to discover great inventions and establish great institutions – such as Bryn Mawr. The very place that gives you a platform to spout off your ridiculous generalizations.
Many whites work hard without being angry, aggressive, assaulting, hostile and falling into the victim role when they do not get their way.
Less blame and more accountability Mr. MacDonald Dennis. For accountability is a word lacking in all segments of our society.
ossurworld
kwak
The Gay Numbers
@robco: whatever. Like I said, I m not intereted in the I deny what you say so prove it to me, and I deny that too game.
RainaWeather
@eagledancer: That’s because they think a joke can hide the ugly truth.
_______________________________________________________
If this article were about straight people, everybody would be agreeing.
Cindy
Reading the comments here, I thought I’d gone to the wrong website and somehow landed on a Rush Limbaugh, Pat Buchanan or FoxNews website… a bunch of white dudes crying about how racist any other minority is when they have the nerve to point out that it’s a helpful thing, being white in America.
Do you really all believe that there isn’t such a thing as white privilege? Really?
The over-the-top defensive response tells me the author just might have hit a truthful nerve.
mick
Oh yeah, I forgot Pres. Obama is on vacation. Gotta give the people something to attack.
The Gay Numbers
@RainaWeather: Exactly the point I make above reference heterosexual privilege. Not one of the whiners here complaining about “there is no such thing as white privilege” would even question the idea. Indeed, they would want us to feel their pain. There is something sociopathic about the some of the posts here in that we are to feel their pain, bu they feel no one elses.
bystander
Is there white privilege to some extent, certainly.
But there also is certainly a minority-privilege to call “racist” on anyone without a shred of evidence. And act in a manor which if white people acted would gain far greater scrutiny and ridiculous. Currently in our society racism is completely acceptable if you are a minority, and if you are white you are considered a racist by default.
We need to get past race and see each other as individuals, this kinda of article is dribble that only serve to earn an insipid writer his salary, and continue to divide us in terms of race.
mike
@c0rpusdelicti: The amount of reactionary bullshit that discussions involving white privilege stirs up is overwhelming. I think it’s awesome that you took the time to oppose some of it. You’re brainpower is hot; you’re willingness to flex it is refreshing.
SuperCat
This article brings out my liberal guilt. I’m sad now.
mike
@Cam: Your out-of-nowhere comment about Madonna’s arms made me laugh out loud.
Stan
This is one reason why, as a gay man of color, I feel no obligation to help in the gay struggle. Basically white gays make no effort to outreach to people of color and even have the nerve to pretend they don’t get enormous advantages from being white themselves. So many white gays simply deny being gay so they can pass as straight white men to gain access to jobs etc. If anything happens then they whip out the “gay” card and scream homophobia. There are no people of color in any significant role in any major gay organization and they expect gays of color to lift a finger to help them? absolutely not. If white gays want all the benefits, then they should do all the heavy lifting. All of it. Gay for me is purely social.
Cedric
I could only get through a few comments, so I really don’t have the “big picture.” However, I feel I should comment anyway. So, here it goes:
As a white upper-middle class male, I may not understand the hardships of being, well, not white. I wouldn’t even really understand being poor, or even simply lower-middle class, because I come from a well off family. However, since I’m gay, my father is gay (so is his husband, duh), as well as my uncle. I think I can understand 1) what it’s like to be treated as a second class citizen, and 2) that my perspective will never be the same as anyone else’s. I know that isn’t just because of my background, ’cause who can really say that all white gay affluent males desire the same thing? Same goes for every other class of human. I guess what I’m really trying to say is that we’ll never really understand. Not just because of race, social class, etc. but because (as corny as this sounds) we’re all unique: at least in this world. The best any of us can really do is to listen, and be compassionate. Of course, that is highly unrealistic, but I’m an eternal optimist.
Yeah
yeah cedric, you don’t get it. Reading your psycho bullshit only confirmed it. douche. Go sip lemonade and pretend what we’re saying is “all relative”. Asshat.
An Other Greek
No. 20 · Distingué Traces
The article doesn’t make its points very forcefully.
The comments do.
—
Worth repeating.
and I wanted to add that while reading the article, I too felt that it could have used a few examples, if not citations, to be clearer.
Why?
Not because I myself couldn’t relate the thousands of examples that life shows me daily, but because I felt a lot of readers would not want to see those examples in their own lives, maybe could not see them?
White Privilege is as American as apple pie, and for those few of you that don’t see it, well, take the others’ cleared vision to heart.
Let’s deal with this, we owe it to the integrity of the LGBT community.
——————————————————————
AlwaysGay
It’s that time of the month to lecture whitey. LOL
The article basically is “if you’re white, you’re racist and you don’t even know it.” Complete BS. Whenever these claims of white gay racism are made all they go on is anecdotes and assumptions. Evidence points in the opposite direction, that racism is less of an issue with gay people than heterosexuals. Most of the claims of racism originate from non-whites being turned away from potential white dates.
The reason for the “whitewashed” image of homosexuality in America is because non-whites don’t come out in the same numbers white gay people do. A few years ago a survey found black gay people were 66% LESS likely to identify as gay than white gay people. Which means for every 22.5 openly white gay people there is one openly black gay person. Also heterosexuals always claim homosexuality is foreign. During muslim rule in Spain the christians claimed homosexuality was a muslim thing. Just this past year a survey from South Africa found the overwhelming majority of heterosexuals in that country believe homosexuality is “un-African.” You see the same thing with non-whites (particularly blacks) claiming homosexuality is a white and elitist thing. As a result of this wrong attitude many non-white gay people avoid gay events run by white people because they want to “stay black.” Ricky wrote most of the non-whites he knows use the term “same-gender loving” individual to describe themselves instead of gay which is seen as a white term.
Jay, exactly. Since 70% of black heterosexual voters helped pass Prop 8 there have been article after article blaming white gay people for pointing out that very FACT. People don’t want the discussion of anti-gay bigotry within the black community talked about in public so they blame white gay people to deflect attention. They know anti-gay bigotry is pervasive and deadly but rather talk about it in black-only environments.
Cedric
Obviously, because frankly race is a relative issue. No culture treats race the same way. However, most people just happen to be extreme douchey about it. I hate to inform you of this, but every opinion you hold is relative. That’s a simple fact. Every single event, down to the most seemingly insignificant moment, has shaped your beliefs and morals. Disregarding someone’s opinion as “psycho bullshit” clearly shows me that you have little regard for human existence other than your own. I respect your opinion, but I still think you should get off your high horse.
The Gay Numbers
@bystander: Oh please now the extra thick layer of bullshit that I call the “I know you are , but what am I” argument. Your post is bullshit.
SuperCat
White privilege exists. Of course it does. The problem is why it exists.
It exists because we believe in something that doesn’t. We continue to focus on a falsehood invented thousands of years ago. Here’s an interesting fact. Race doesn’t exist.
The concept of different “races” of humans was made up by humans, it is a social construct. It was a concept made to explain outward differences which we have come to learn are very superficial and have very little to do with being human.
Human beings are over 99% biologically identical. We all have the same limbs, same organs, and the same origins.
It is ingrained in all people. It is something we can’t remove over night. But it is something we should focus on. We always want to “break down racial barriers” and “bring people of different races together”. The truth is there is no such thing as people of different races.
The Gay Numbers
@Cedric: Your comments are b.s. because you try to hide behind relativism as an excuse to say “oh well we are all like this.” Yes, you are right, but it is irrelevant to the question of the impact of those perspectives relatively speaking on what is considered normal. If you go to China acting as you do here, you would soon realize that they consider you lesser than their culture, and they have the normative power of their society to enforce it through social and cultural practices. Practical examples- after Katrina, that kept referring to the survivors as refugees, which was incorrect as a description of what they were because they were all Americans. But that perception of what “American” is has a power affect on how we think of things. Another example, although I have a great pedigree, I still have to each time overcome the privilege that says my white counter part is better than me even when they are not. I have to be thinking in this society given the number of chances I have versus others about race all the time. Not because I want to (because the fact is most o fmy friends are white) but because that’s what is expected. I gave the example of going to a club, and having white friends become uncomfortable with being in a club with too many people of color because they never think about and nor do they have ot as the majority race the issue of how not looking or acting liek the majority impacts their social interaction. None of what you say addresses this. It tries to hid behind “well we all have different cultures” or we are all relative, and this is b.s. because that’s not the point. The question is how do these different cultural norms becomes seen as “objectively” (although really subjective) the norm of society. Pretending there are no norms waste all our time and is insulting because you assume we can not see the ruse, or maybe you don’t see it yourself?
The Gay Numbers
@SuperCat: This is another of the false hoods. You are not going to convine people in the majority that diferences don’t exist. And, even if you did, they would simply make up a new majority, and create differences related to those that will create the same majority privilege. That’s what we are discussing here- the blindness caused by the majority (in group) about how being in the majority impacts perception of what is objectively true. For instance, how a gay group with only all white, mostly male and mostly upper income people does not realize that it lacks diversity. Another example how people assume that if affirmative action exists, then they deserved that spot that the person of color got even if their grades sucked (I can give the example of a guy who had lower grades than me – I had a A- average in college saying he deserved my spot because in his mind he was more deserving. He had a C- average.) I have met quite a few guys like this from places like Long Island in NYC. They assume tha tthey are naturally more talented than I am. Their proof of this? because society has told them indirectly that they are more talented than I am. This is examples of how the privilege works. They are not per se racist because racism is something a bit more direct- ie, they don’t think “I am superior to blacks.” they think “I deserve it more than he does” and I doubt supriority ever comes into the mix as much as their believe that t hey deserve to be on top does. As I like to say the average white guy will think he deserves to be the best because they see, for example, movies by people like Apatow telling them that you know even the schlub gets the pretty girl and wins in the end. What’s the hdident message there? That the normal white guy is better and is th e norm. that he is cool.
SuperCat
@The Gay Numbers:
Actually that makes a lot of sense.
You’re saying that it is subtle right? That there is is privilege because of norms enforced by a majority?
We really should be saying majority privilege because that’s where it come from.
I still stand by my statement that race is a social construct. But I understand now that this issue has little to do with that.
uffda
Yes, the hegemonic “white” race. We’re all the same you know. Why don’t you try venturing away from Bryn Mawr once in a while. Go visit some of those privileged whites living in a run-down trailer in Appalachia. Ask how the Man’s been treating them lately. Or the privileged white single mother and waitress with no insurance living in a studio apartment with her kid. Typical ivory tower bullshit.
Cedric
@The Gay Numbers: (Note: Read the entire comment, because halfway through I changed my thinking completely.) I am a relativist, but I never said it was alright simply cause that is they way it is. Right now the only reasons I can come up with to explain this phenomena are rooted in two schools: relativism, and realism. It is realist to perceive that white privilege exists solely to keep the majority (in this case, white people) in power. However, is it not the individual’s experiences which drive them to accept this as moral or not? Which I suppose is relativism. What I think (though I have no doubt that I may be wrong) is that this is the way people are. The fact is not ALL people are like that, regardless of race. A white person may completely realize that he or she is receiving better treatment than someone of another race, but would it really make it better if they sacrificed an opportunity. The thing is, people may be like “this,” but there’s no reason that it can’t be changed. How it would change isn’t something I can really come to think of now. I guess the more I think, and read your comment to super cat, the more I realize that in turn I just suggested the creation of another majority/minority. I guess, maybe it all goes far back, when we could only recognize our allies by the way they look, or acted etc. Maybe we just can’t unite under the “American” label, or even the “human” one. I can’t really come up with answer, which is I guess the whole point of it. I’m not even sure what I’m trying to answer anyway.
jimmy
“To the white LGBT community, our existence as LGBT people of color, is merely an afterthought, an inconvenient fact that is thought about in the most insignificant and patronizing way.”
It would have been helpful, in order to substantiate such a provocative charge, to offer an example of such patronization.
“It’s time for white LGBT folk to challenge their own privilege, listen to all voices and take on the issues that matter to all of us.”
Without being as melodramatic as providing a bibliography, some clue as to what those issues are is warranted. Is there something beyond fighting for equal protection under the law that the privileged whities who, according to Mr. MacDonald-Dennis, run the whole LGBT movement, are not addressing?
If among the issues the writer is referring to are the challenges gay and lesbian people of color have within their own communities, only they themselves can really address those issues with any success. The ranks tend to close at the point when white people try to suggest to people of color how they should solve their problems, especially since we have not solved those problems within white culture (read into “white culture” what you will).
If the issues are ones of representation, my only suggestion is organize, stand up, and be counted. Get loud about what your issues are. Writing really vague posts like this doesn’t get it done. Who is speaking for those neglected communities? One if the weaknesses of the entire LGBT cause is a lack of effective spokespersons, regardless of color.
The Gay Numbers
@SuperCat: Yes, it really is about creating normatives based on majorities. This is why I compare it to any construct like this. i.e., heteronormative believes that everyone is presumptively straight for example are about the force of just straights being in the majority, and how that impacts how if a gay character is gay in a TV show well that must mean that the show is trying to talk about sex. Nevermind that a subplot of just about every series on TV always has the hero going after the girl. What is that about other than sex? That’s the power of being in the majority. You get to label what is “normative.” I would say it can also be about power. Men do the same as what I am describing with women. There is nothing per se wrong with your argument over race as a construct. I actually agree with that point, but am making the point that its impact on privilege is not as straight forward as eliminating the construct because the real underlying issue is the power that grows out of the privilege to expect , for example, that just because you work hard and get good grades, that means you are going to suceed. For years, that’s been the white man’s dream of reality regardless of the fact that they didn’t realize that the same black kid doing the exact same steps did not know if he was going to suceed because he did not have the same presumption of the American dream. Is that white person being a racist? I don’t think they are intentionally being a racist. I think their set of assumptions make it hard for them to understand that one can be accomplished and still have less of a chance to suceed in America. That the presumption that one will suceed is not there. Now, that’s changing. that’s what leading to the so-called white man’s anger thing. But the funny part of that as I am fond of saying after hearing from other black professionals is that we always say to collegues, “Well to the world we have been inhabiting for a long time where the best don’t always rise to the top just because they do the right things.” That’s the privilege in a nutshell. I am not saying it is absolute, but that mind set is a part of the mix that makes discussing race and its impact hard. It is hard to explain to someone for example the feaar that comes with knowing thatyou may not only be rejected for sexual orientation but also for race, and having to choose which one is the least likely to reject you.
The Gay Numbers
@uffda: The silliness of your post is that you understand nothing of American history. Yes, white in the U.S. is a monolith. It is not that ethinic identiy does not exist in the U.S. There are Italians and Germans and people of all kind of backgrounds. It is that it is not the chief aspect of what people see or think of and has not been for a long time. For example, in non big city areas, like say in the midwest and down south, such groups were told that they were better than blacks. While they retained their ethinic connections however weakly, what they picked up was a sense of being white. This poin ti snot even in dispute to anyone who understands American history or how social forces developed over time.
The Gay Numbers
Cedric
The point is not to believe thatyou can overcome tribalism or give up opportunities. It is to understand how these dynamics are a part of all of us,a nd how , if one is in the majority, it can affect what it means to be “normal” and the power that comes from being a part of the majority tribe. The problem subsantively comes into play with groups who are majority white, upper class and gay male. I attack these orgs not just for race, but also the other ways as well. For example, I am a really big problem that no one is trying to be inclusive of low income gays. It hink that affects perceptions alot. A practical exmaple – the marriage debate matters a lot more to someone who is blue collar, and needs their spouses health insurance because they don’t have much money. Indeed, Kathy Griffith had an excellent episode of hershow in which she showed just what I describe. What I assumed was a working class gay couple because the one partner desperately needed the health insurance policy of the other partner, bu tnot being married, the company did not recognize their relationship. The normative of the gay community if you look out in public is that we are all upper income, and thus this is all just abstract rights. Now, I am not taking away from the rights of the wealthy to say what i am saying. All i am pointing out is that by constructing that norm of what gay is, we create this image that there is no real sufering involved. People need to see how we relate to them. That we are poor. We are black. We are asian, and we are a lot of other things. We don’t see that,a nd most often these groups don’t een realize they are not showing that. Why? Because of the privilege factor. They don’t think about it because they don’t ahve to think about race or economics. Whereas if they had a diverse representation those ideas could be added into the mix so that fellow Americans could have a better impression of the range of gay people out there.
The Gay Numbers
Jimmy
a) It matters whether because it is not just about equal protection under the law, and I suspect you k now that.
b) It matters because the question is will you throw us under the bus?
c) It matters because working with us is a social activity that requires trust. If people can’t even address their own baggage, it is hard to trust them. See b.
d) It matters because if you are asking people to choose between you and the other community they may have to give up then you have to offer something more than how it helps you. Again, that is if you get that equal protection is not the only concern, but also things like social and emotionally acceptance for all aspects of who one is. If you wsih to pretend it does not matter, then there is little I can say.
e) It is only vague if you have never had this discussion before. Your ignorance does not make it vague. Go look it up.
f) While we are at it, stop asking peo to prove things that you will then want to deny even fi they do provide you evidence.
jimmy
TGN
“It matters whether because it is not just about equal protection under the law, and I suspect you know that.”
This statement makes no sense. If it’s not about equal protection for all, then what is it about? If you are saying that the LGBT movement, disjointed as it is, is emblematic of institutionalized racism, then just say it. Then go see if you can get a better deal somewhere else. I don’t think you will.
As to “will you throw us under the bus?” I don’t know the answer to that. All I know is that the world is not fair, hard as we (and by ‘we’ I mean ALL of us) try to work for a more fair society, a more perfect union.
“It matters because working with us is a social activity that requires trust.”
Trust runs both ways. Different communities have different sorts of baggage. Those communities who decide to continue to carry around their victim baggage make their trip more difficult. The moment you stop believing you are a victim, you won’t be. That is true for everyone.
Regarding the original post, I called it vague because the writer, an academic who should know better, failed to offer anything other than an unsupported premise. He gave us a table top with no legs. I suppose I could “go look it up”, but my point is, I’m not compelled to do that because I am unconvinced and unpersuaded by what was written.
Zadie
This conversation is a good example of how a couple generations of right-wing propaganda have brainwashed Americans into only discussing race (in a limited way), when they should be discussing race AND class.
It’s no surprise that in a Great Recession, regular white folks (who, chances are, have a lot of material anxiety in their lives right now) don’t enjoy being told they’re privileged. And yes, of course white privilege is powerful and ubiquitous (even for gays). However, its benefits are trumped by the economic reality of the world-destroying class war that the ruling class has waged against regular folks (under banners such as neoliberalism). This class war is the elephant in the room when discussing the pain and injustice of people’s daily lives right now.
As far as this article, I appreciate the author’s frustration, but he did not express himself very well. He repeated assertions without making arguments — just classically bad writing. There are so many people who have expressed ideas like this so much better. Even in blog posts. I’m actually kind of shocked that any university hired him. Maybe his strengths are in something other than writing.
For an example of useful discussion of these issues, in a recent interview on Pacifica, Joseph DeFilipis from Queers for Economic Justice gave concrete examples of how HRC and their ilk fail to include issues relevant to poor folks and people of color, even on HRC’s signature issues (marriage, the military, and hate crimes). For example, in New York, those who made the domestic partnership laws never bothered to include recognition of domestic partnerships in homeless shelters, even though a disproportionate number of the homeless are LGBT. His description of how QEJ worked to redress that oversight (without the support of the mainstream gay groups) and get DHS to recognize all types of families was really eye-opening.
Confused
@Chris: I’m confused. What does being part of the Jewish religion have to do with skin color? You mention in your bio that you are an agnostic Jew. Should that mean you are simply agnostic?
Cindy
I had to read the article again to see if I’d somehow missed the charge of racism. Can someone point out where the author calls all white gays racists?
Discussing white privilege and recognizing that gays of color might have other issues of higher importance to them as people of color and as homosexuals that aren’t the same as white gay men isn’t calling you’all racists. It’s asking you to look to them, to hear them, to recognize that issues might be different for them.
Is that really so difficult?
Jim
Whew! Fun comments guys but really, mad about crappy writing? I come to this site for frosting, not cake. If it was 1994 Queerty would be a xeroxed ‘zine.
dgz
how do you people have time to write so many long comments? it takes a lot of effort to debate this, but it takes so little effort to do it with more civility.
TikiHead
Of course the flip side is straight privilege, and the massive, pervasive straight-washing we see everywhere. So ubiquitous, it’s invisible to straights. I’ve tried explaining this to straight friends, and it’s hard work to get through.
So a similar thing happens with race — white (mostly, and I am one) people are like fish in water, don’t see it.
SuperCat
@The Gay Numbers:
Thank you. What you are saying makes a lot of sense to me. I am learning a lot.
Sam
@Cam: You’re talking about prejudice, which is different from racism. Racism is systemic and involves power and oppression.
Harvard is racist because it is an institution which is a gatekeeper to power in society and grants access to students based on the measures of success that are important to white people (and have their own intrinsic white bias – see standardized testing). Even if a white person encounters prejudice in applying to Howard (or another historically black college), a denial there does not cut them off from access to power in the same way a denial from Harvard (or another Ivy) does, so that form of prejudice doesn’t have the oppressive, systemic impact as true racism.
Christian
I actually think that the comments on this article are more telling about White Privilege and issues of race within the gay community than the article itself could ever be. In an undergraduate Women’s Studies class I once made the observations that we must (1) all respect the view from the auction block and (2) recognize that until we all get on the boat it’s not leaving the dock.
As a well-traveled, educated thirty-something gay black male I see the just as much racism and discrimination within the gay community as I do in the larger communities we live in and while I don’t expect gays to be exempt from this sickness I do expect oppressed peoples to do better at confronting and challenging their own discriminatory impluses. If we can’t do this, then how on God’s green Earth can we expect others to do the same on our behalf?
One more thing: talking about a problem is the first step towards dealing with it, attacking those who initiate and push these critical and valuable discussion is like telling someone to stay in the closet and never come out.
Rob
@The Gay Numbers: That sounds absolutely fascinating. Seriously. Your friend should write a book.
AJ
As a black gay man, I feel this article fails its own argument. It goes on about white privilege for half the piece and only in the end actually addresses the differences between people of color and white gay men.
Rhetorically, this isn’t very smart. Indicting white people isn’t going to change anything. Starting with the actual problems/differences educates people and gives them a sense of agency that they can change.
People of color have lost the argument on “white privilege.” Does it exist? Yes. Does it makes sense trying to teach white people to embrace it? No. I’d rather spend my time talking about the particular problems and coming up with ways to fix it than going on a broad invective over a general population that’s only going to put people on the defensive. I want people to *want* to work with us.
Tweek
Lucille: I went home last night and there was a colored man in my kitchen!
Michael: Colored? What color was he exactly?
Lucille: Blue!
commonqueer
@robco: “No, the evidence for white privilege doesn’t exist.”
Taking a look at the average salaries of white folks compared to people of color might make you think otherwise. The average white male with a college degree earns double what a black male with a college degree makes. There is a reason why people of color overwhelmingly populate low-income demographics. Historically, white people have owned and dominated everything in this country, and by default of privilege still do, giving them privileges they are born into which provide them with more opportunities for education, future ownership, connections and money. In my opinion, these socio-economic numbers do provide evidence that white privilege exists.
The Gay Numbers
Jimmy
if you are going to complain you want fairness, you can not respond to people’s request of fairness from you and others that the world is not fair. You can, but you get wha tyou give in that statement.
M Shane
You’ve covered a lot of territory , The Gay Numbers, and since I primarily agree with everything I will come at the issue from the side .
At a slightly earlier time, before the aspect of respectability was thrown in everyones faces by the Gay Right and gays were not struggling to appeal to the White Heterosexual community by being assimilated, there was not any where close to the aspect of selectivity to what we wanted to count as ours. I am shocked to not uncommonly find that gays in “masculine drag” despite their effeminate bitchyness feel no shame in calling more obviously feminine gays, fags and other derogatory terms. They don’t want to be associated with unacceptable elements or expressions(i.e. sex, holding hands) in society which the white conservative heterosexuals would not approve.
As we know, racism is a tried and true part of most traditional white American culture. I doubt that Hilary Clinton would be seen at a Black bar-b-Que without political agendas, or taking japanese flower arranging courses for fun.
Todays politics is developed mainly as a function of guilt, a byproduct of the AIDS epidemic, not something which just came along naturally. Instead of attempting to find unity in our own community many people have sold out to the white heterosexual Mainstream culture. It is clearly no longer a
matter of finding liberation and insisting that they accept us for who we are (and were) but of sucking up to the master class, and attemping to ape them.
The Gay Numbers
Zadie
You did not read my posts or anyone else because class was discussed. Stop trying to do the standard right wing thing- which is to try to create conflict between two classes, ie , race or class. One can not discuss both. Or, gay versus transgender. Both should not be included in ENDA. Divide and conquer is how right wingers to use tribal instincts to manipulate people.
The Gay Numbers
Rob
“your friend should write a book” Which story and which friend?
The Gay Numbers
AJ
your comment is nonsensical victimhood. Getting people to realize how they thinka nd why theydo what they do is always a good thing because then they are recognizing their baggage in a situation. As I like to say to potential mates- “I know we are all flawed. Just don’t place your shit on me.”
Copper Stewart
This issue is vitally important and I thank you for raising it repeatedly. Too many people seem willfully ignorant of race AND class issues. I, for one, experience white privilege and know it; I also do not identify with the status, aspirations or consumer trends of the American middle class; from my perspective and relatively speaking, the marketed (and white) community is privileged, not put upon.
jimmy
TGN-
That is why the issues I direct my energies toward are those that benefit the society as a whole. Healthcare reform, maintaining and strengthening civil rights legislation, funding for downtrodden teachers, who get blamed for the failures of our neglected public schools. Those seem like universal issues that all progressive people can agree on.
I’m not a member of any LGBT organization. I was a member of a labor union. Organized labor has done more for working people, especially women and minorities, than most other civic movements. That’s because the benefits won were benefits for all.
I don’t pretend that because we elected a black man as president that we are suddenly in a post-racial society. If the point all the original post is to say that we as a people (Americans) must continue to work for equality in the face of what is, as history suggests, immutable human nature, I would agree with that.
The Gay Numbers
@jimmy: You add to the nonsensical by creating false and dangerous choices. You assume that labor issues are not related to race and class for example? I mean- this is just retarded. The fact is the cultural politics of the U.S. affect a large part of what gets done here. It is why the Republicans, for example, are able to play people who regularly vote against their owninterest. It is not because these people are aware of their own baggage that they easily manipulated by the right. it is because they are woefully unware of their baggage that allows them to be manipulated through code language and dog whistles in such a way that they have no idea what their intersts are. If you don’t address the lense throught which they look at life or the blinders they ha you are n’t going to address the issue syou mention becuase they are not going to listen to you. That’s the reality of life. People are not all that rational. They are mostly emotional, and if you ignore that, you lose. That’s what happened with prop 8. They ignored race and class, and so they lose. The right however did not- they were out there front and center dividing us up because they realized this stuff is natural lizard brain instinct. Rather than addressing that, most people like you think you ar going to get by with denial. It’s not going to happen.
The Gay Numbers
jimmy- by the way- here’s a great example of how these things fester below the surface
http://pamshouseblend.com/diary/12666/tim-wise-breaks-down-the-health-care-teabaggers-and-their-racism-game
dangerkidd
@ cam
listen douchebag. i have a PhD in theoretical particle physics from Stanford.
my 101 of anything would melt your fucking face.
and fyi, things like critical race theory have their own departments now.
uffda
@The Gay Numbers: Do you ever sleep bitch? Put down the meth.
AlwaysGay
@jimmy: You’re just a coward that’s why you don’t want to participate in any gay events or causes.
Republican
dangerkidd,
And I got my PhD in mathematics from Stanford. Our degrees don’t mean shit when it comes to this topic, and you damn well know it.
Trey
@Republican: sigh…Cam, called dangerkidd a naive freshman. that’s why he revealed his PhD.
Republican
Ah, I couldn’t find what cam had said to him, so I assumed he was engaging in a bit of cock waving. Makes sense now. No need to sigh.
The Gay Numbers
@uffda: Since trying to start my own business while taking care of a sick mother and working on my creative projects- the answer is no. Sleep is for the dead.
The Gay Numbers
@uffda: by the way , nice to see a crack ho like you trying to put all of your drug addicts on me. Look bitch, don’t assume everyone else is cracked out or tweaking just because you are.
Chitown Kev
@Sam:
“Try this one on for size, folks who’ve said this is “racist”: people of color can NEVER be racist towards whites. Racism is a system of oppression which only exists as perpetuated by whites towards people of color (in the U.S., at least).”
I disagree with this.
I do think straight black people can be racist toward gay white people. Remember, heterosexism is also a syestem of oppression. Questions of privilege take on multiple layers.
The article does generalize too much, though, not allowing for those multiple layers of oppression.
jimmy
Well Ok-
I Guess Your Right.
Black Is Beautiful-
And White’s Outta’ Sight!
jimmy
Now lets all have a tacky parade!
Chitown Kev
@SuperCat:
“We really should be saying majority privilege because that’s where it come from.”
Not necessarily, people that are worth over, say, $100 million are a definite minority in this country (and around the world). But they have the power that their class privilege brings. The power is the key component.
The Gay Numbers (as I would expect) has explained this quite well. I have little or nothing to add but I will continue to scroll through this.
Chitown Kev
@Zadie:
Great post!
Steve
To Ronnie and all the other supporter of GLAAD, HRC, etc., who throw a hundred (or more) dollars down to attend a cocktail party and then feel good about giving back to the community, why not do some real volunteer work with some LGBT organizations who are actually improving people’s lives, like Sylvia’s Place or the Ali Forney Center or Trinity Place. Never heard of them? Didn’t think so.
Steve
Whoops, I posted to the wrong article. Disregard the above. Sorry!
reluctantcommenter
@The Gay Numbers: @The Gay Numbers:
I have several problems with this argument, which seems to be at the center of any discussion about gay rights and race:
“Some, as I have started to feel, believe that the point of gay rights equality for some gay whites is not equality, but to restore to them their right to be privileged as their white straight counter parts are. Thus, many gay blacks probably feel ‘why bother if you are not planning to count me on the equal treatment?” Now, with regard to laws, it is easy to say we are all going to be equal, but then what happens with the rest of society after that?”
First, is it fair to say that lesbians (it’s funny, we seem to never talk about women) don’t hold this same perspective when it comes to the systemic inequality they face? 75 cents on the dollar, glass ceilings, domestic abuse, sexual harassment, rape, the ever eroding right to choose. Why isn’t queerty referencing articles about the intersection of the LGBT community with the larger struggle for women’s rights? Not sensational enough?
Back to the titillating discussion of racism. Equal rights for LGBTs will not end systemic racism; it would be ridiculous to conclude otherwise. But just as overturning Jim Crowe laws didn’t suddenly make everyone equal in matters of race, dismantling anti-gay laws won’t end de facto heterosexism; not for any race of gay. It won’t restore white gay men to the good ol’ boys club (as if they ever were a part of it to begin with). Where on earth did this idea come from? It will just give us the legal footing to protect ourselves. Perhaps you disagree, but in my opinion, legal rights or not, we will have a long struggle ahead of us to be treated as true equals in this wonderful Christian nation.
On the flip side, are gays of color, reluctant, or resistant to work for LGBT equality, a perfect example of cutting off your nose to spite your face? Employment rights, hate crimes protections, the right to serve openly in the military, the right to sponsor non-American spouses for citizenship, the right to adopt, and all the rights associated with marriage, do these rights not benefit gays of all races? Don’t these issues matter to all of us? How could they not? What’s the reason to resist? And I’m happy to add to this list, especially considering I have no personal stake in most of these issues; they don’t directly affect me at this point in my life.
And finally, on the issue of white privilege. I think some of the white guys are getting defensive because after possibly losing friends and family, having to hide, worrying about their livelihood, life, and safety, just for being different, makes it really difficult to be associated with word privelaged. It could easily be seen as eclipsing all the underprivileged aspects of being born gay. There’s some common ground between gay and black, and I think focusing on that would yield to greater understanding than focusing on differences. Is that too idealistic?
If I’ve come off as snarky at any point, my apologies. I think you’ve been calm and made rational arguments, but I don’t agree with everything you’re saying.
Chitown Kev
@reluctantcommenter:
1) Your point on lesbians, just as men have privilege over women, that’s no difference whether one is a gay man or a lesbian. Gay men have privilege over lesbians. An exercise of this privilege, for example, is that the icons in the Queerty Logo have very little to do with the site content.
2) I don’t think that anyone is even suggesting that LGBT’s should end systemic racism, though anti-racism work is the right thing to do for anyone, gay or straight.
3) Yes, all of those GLBT issues help gays of all races but it would be nice to see one of those couples that lives in the Bronx (as opposed to Palm Springs) who is struggling and needs the protections of marriage equality and ENDA (although in NY you can cross state lines to get married and there is a state ENDA). If the gay community is as diverse as you say, then why don’t we see it.
And don’t give me that bullshit about too many blacks being on the DL; I know too many blacks, Latinos, and APIs that are not in the closet but I don’t see them in the fag rags very often.
4) Good point in the last paragraph. But might it be that some white gays want to reassert what privilege they can because of the loss of privilege when they come out?
The Gay Numbers
@Chitown Kev: When it comes to white gays and the issue of white privilege that people of color raise, the concern is that this is not about equality for all, but equality for them. The importance is not one of law. It is one of social and cultural outcome. This is not something that is new to people of color, as other groups have claimed solidarity in the past, and once they overcame, they also forgot.
The Gay Numbers
@reluctantcommenter:
a) I explain one of my post that gender is a factor too. I am not saying it is just race. I am saying that there is a lot of privilege that takes place and a lot of exclusion whether it is race or economics, for example, is something I also raise.
b) You raise the false choice that people like to raise. No one said we can end racism. but to note that it exists and addresses with it can mitigate it. That’s the point.
c) Whatever your reason for acting on gay rights- don’t assume they are the reasons for others. I know personally, or did in my 20s until I stopped hanging out with the idiots, gay white men of wealthier backgrounds who really did see it as but’for the gay, I will do as well as my straight white counter parts.
d) You keep doing the whole “well they are harming themselves.’ Maybe. But the problem is that when you are given a choice between two harms, you decide on the one that is most comfortable toyou. This is the issue here. You want to focus on the harm to gays as if that is the only thing that gay people of color face when in actuality they still face two types of harms- one based on race and one on sexual orientation. They are being asked to choose.
Look, I am out and gay. But we grow up the color we are. We don’t deal with our sexuality until what- at teh earliest in our teens. The choice is at that point between the world you know that maybe hostile to your sexual orientation or the world you don’t know that is clearly also hostile to your race. You can say until youa re blue “oh but you should choose the hositle white gays” but why is that? Why should we choose you over those who understand us with regard to race issues? You aren’t offering up any reasons whywe should other than to tell us “yeah we are with you so long as we can get something from you.” for the record, many people have never experienced equality regarding sexual orientation. Thus you are asking them once again to give up certain connections to acommunity versus the abstract rights that they know nothing of. Why again should they do that? You dont’ say why other than telling them in the media that it is all about you. That’s a really big selling point. I know for a fact when Madison Avenue wants to sell cars they so by settling on the interest of the advertiser rather than the audience to whom they are trying to sell.
The Gay Numbers
And by the way- this is how the privilege also plays out. You don’t think uyou have to sell to gay black people why it is in thei rinterest. You think that you just have to say we are all alike although when we turn to the media and the representation in the organization there is the cognitive dissonance that says “no we are not.” If you want people to hear your points, you have to say them in way that sees them, not just yourself.
Chitown Kev
@The Gay Numbers:
True. But I would also say that straight blacks fear the same about gay blacks as well. All that crabs in the barrel shit.
Rowen
I’ve been reading all the comments and I’m getting really confused. Is white priveledge the same as racism? or are they somehow different? It seems that many of the examples and sites that have been shown are strictly dealing with racism, and most of them are from a wider perspective then just the gay community.
Furthermore, I’m still not sure what you guys are claiming that the gay community is not doing for you. Are you saying that white gay guys are racist? If so. .. um, DUH. Does the pope shit in the woods? Yes, people are racist. . . , and that includes gay guys, who, in case you haven’t noticed, are often some of the most shallow and self centered morons on the face of the earth. Furthermore, most people I know either shut up about and deal with it, or move on and try to get it out of their lives.
As for the gay community not being represted enough. . . I have no idea where you live, but I grew up in Texas and now live in NYC. I’ve been fairly active in both states, and in both states I see a whole wide variety of people out and supporting the gay community. Hell, just walk down to the Community Center and see who’s both staffing and being assisted. When we had a prop 8 rally around city hall, it wasn’t just young white folks. It was a whole mix of people. In the few months I spent fundraising for HRC (We won’t get into that), there was a whole rainbow of colors and sexualities who all wanted to get involved in some way. It’s not that hard to find gay men and women of all colors, creeds and sizes helping each other out. So, where are you getting this idea that all white gay men are just political so that they can rejoin the country club? Is it because HRC is a big political organization? There’s plenty of gay groups the deal with black, latinos, asians, and what not. A simple google search brought up a LARGE amount of sites just for Black Gays, and most of them weren’t porn.
So, finally, what exactly are you saying? What is it that the gay community is NOT doing that you feel it should? You’ve been making a lot of assumptions on how white people feel, and have been claiming martyrdom, but I have yet to see it in action. What do you feel *should* be done? That’s when we can start having a constructive conversation. Simply claiming that the white man is bringing you down isn’t helpful to you (with the implication that it’s ALL white folks ESPECIALLY gay ones. . .what? you didn’t say that? then don’t bring up the idea that there’s white priveledge that white people don’t like to talk about. It’s like Godwin’s Law. People don’t mention Nazi’s just because they can. There’s ALWAYS a reason behind it.) Nor is it helpful in getting us to a point where we can fix it.
In other words, put up or shut up.
Chitown Kev
@Rowen:
“Is white priveledge the same as racism?”
It’s a “soft” form of it. It’s everything that comes with being the “majority” or “normal” in society as opposed to being the “other.” It’s far more insidious, in some ways, then overt racism because many white people are not even truly aware of the advantages that their race confers…
Mind you, I remind straight black people of this all the time when they talk about their victimhood. If the straight black community were more supportive of the gays within its’ own communities, I wouldn’t get so offended, for example, when they talk about gay white racism; usually you don’t have to penetrate too far to find a shitload of homophobia beneath it.
In some ways, the white gay community is exactly the same way as regards to race.
Since the Gay Numbers brought it up, here’s a similar checklist for Heterosexuals:
On a daily basis as a straight person…
I can be pretty sure that my roomate, hallmates and classmates will be comfortable with my sexual orientation.
If I pick up a magazine, watch TV, or play music, I can be certain my sexual orientation will be represented.
When I talk about my heterosexuality (such as in a joke or talking about my relationships), I will not be accused of pushing my sexual orientation onto others.
I do not have to fear that if my family or friends find out about my sexual orientation there will be economic, emotional, physical or psychological consequences.
I did not grow up with games that attack my sexual orientation (IE fag tag or smear the queer).
I am not accused of being abused, warped or psychologically confused because of my sexual orientation.
I can go home from most meetings, classes, and conversations without feeling excluded, fearful, attacked, isolated, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance, stereotyped or feared because of my sexual orientation.
I am never asked to speak for everyone who is heterosexual.
I can be sure that my classes will require curricular materials that testify to the existence of people with my sexual orientation.
People don’t ask why I made my choice of sexual orientation.
People don’t ask why I made my choice to be public about my sexual orientation.
I do not have to fear revealing my sexual orientation to friends or family. It’s assumed.
My sexual orientation was never associated with a closet.
People of my gender do not try to convince me to change my sexual orientation.
I don’t have to defend my heterosexuality.
I can easily find a religious community that will not exclude me for being heterosexual.
I can count on finding a therapist or doctor willing and able to talk about my sexuality.
I am guaranteed to find sex education literature for couples with my sexual orientation.
Because of my sexual orientation, I do not need to worry that people will harass me.
I have no need to qualify my straight identity.
My masculinity/femininity is not challenged because of my sexual orientation.
I am not identified by my sexual orientation.
I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help my sexual orientation will not work against me.
If my day, week, or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it has sexual orientation overtones.
Whether I rent or I go to a theater, Blockbuster, an EFS or TOFS movie, I can be sure I will not have trouble finding my sexual orientation represented.
I am guaranteed to find people of my sexual orientation represented in the Earlham curriculum, faculty, and administration.
I can walk in public with my significant other and not have people double-take or stare.
I can choose to not think politically about my sexual orientation.
I do not have to worry about telling my roommate about my sexuality. It is assumed I am a heterosexual.
I can remain oblivious of the language and culture of LGBTQ folk without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.
I can go for months without being called straight.
I’m not grouped because of my sexual orientation.
My individual behavior does not reflect on people who identity as heterosexual.
In everyday conversation, the language my friends and I use generally assumes my sexual orientation. For example, sex inappropriately referring to only heterosexual sex or family meaning heterosexual relationships with kids.
People do not assume I am experienced in sex (or that I even have it!) merely because of my sexual orientation.
I can kiss a person of the opposite gender on the heart or in the cafeteria without being watched and stared at.
Nobody calls me straight with maliciousness.
People can use terms that describe my sexual orientation and mean positive things (IE “straight as an arrow”, “standing up straight” or “straightened out”) instead of demeaning terms (IE “ewww, that’s gay” or being “queer”).
I am not asked to think about why I am straight.
I can be open about my sexual orientation without worrying about my job.
Amp
I think this blog post did its job very while by getting people to talk about white privilege and the emotions that surround racial discrimination done within the gay community.
Also after reading a lot of the comments, I would ask that those who feel the author did not address the concept of white privilege in enough detail please go and read Peggy McIntosh’s “White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack,” article in its entirety, instead of just blindly critiquing a concept for which you have not read some of the source material. Here is a link to the article in PDF format:
http://www.case.edu/president/aaction/UnpackingTheKnapsack.pdf
FlopsyMopsyCT
I am of the opinion that the issue of white privilege and to what extent it plagues GLBT agenda is not really relevant to GLBT issues. I read one comment that stated putting issues of race before our own GLBT issues is improper. To a certain extent (I don’t believe the GLBT cause puts issues of race before their own, nor do I think anyone would actually assert that) I agree with that poster.
First off, the GLBT agenda is not (fundamentally) concerned with social overhauls of policy dedicated to ending discrimination for every and all social and racial minority, let alone specific groups of people such as blacks. Its title says it all. The GLBT movement is about equal rights for GLBT people. The distinction of race seems to have no direct correlation to the fight.
I do not doubt the existence of white privilege or its prevalence in the GLBT community. I have definitely noticed that most collectively supportive GLBT organizations push an image of the upper-class, white gay fe/male. However, I don’t really see why changing that would help GLBT initiatives, except that it would be nice and PC to do so.
Quite frankly, I just don’t think the GLBT area is the proper vehicle to help demolish the white centered thinking that is prevalent in America. Although it’s an interesting discussion, I don’t see the relevance to pertinent gay issues. One could argue that it should occur in every and all organizations, whatever their cause. However, the question still remains whether the GLBT community is the right place to get that going, especially given their own agonizing struggle.
Further, the article condemns this epidemic of white privilege in the gay community, but it doesn’t really say what the heck we’re supposed to do about it, other than recognize it. It’s all great to write an article announcing its presence (if one didn’t already know it existed, which I think is a rare person). However, if cultural minorities in the GLBT movement think it such a problem, they need to come up with a solution. White people (myself included) aren’t going to do much about it, especially if they don’t readily recognize and/or care about it.
Rowen
I read the article. And I read your list of things as a straight person, kev. Most of what is present is the simple fact that people like to hang out (or work with, or promote, or film, or watch TV with, etc) people who are similar, which is sometimes racist and sometimes more of people clinging to what’s familiar.
Perfect example. In middle school, I didn’t really like most of the kids, and most of my friends didn’t have the same lunch time that I did. So, for a few months, I sat with a group of black girls. They were nice, but often times, there was this racial tension of “Why the hell is this white boy sitting with us?” I didn’t feel discriminated against because of my race, I just knew that on the outside, we were different looking. Big deal.
Anyway, many ethnic minorities are standing up and making their voices heard. There’s a lot more depictions of blacks and latinos on TV then ever before. There are more POC in political offices and positions of power and visibility before. Just because there has been “white priveledge” doesn’t mean that things can’t change.
Which brings me to my point, which many other people have asked before. What’s your point? (and what’s the author’s point?) What is it you want the GLBT community to recognize and to change? Most people in the GLBT community are fighting for the rights for ALL GLBT people, and every rally, meeting and parade I’ve been to has been a celebration of our diversity. What is it you think we’re doing wrong and how would you fix it?
Chitown Kev
@Rowen:
Let’s take something very specific…how issues are framed
DADT- Thus far it has been framed as a national security isuue, with much of it surrounding the discharge of highly skilled service members. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that, by the way.
But add this to the frame
There are a number of GLBT kids that are on the street due to the fact that they were kicked out of their homes. Many of the have to do sex work to make ends meet, are in homeless shelters, etc.
Why can’t these out gay kids (which are disproportinately minority and even poor white) join the Armed Forces? Many a black kid made a decision to join the Armed Forces for the purposes of the benefits, education opportunities, etc.
Now I know that is not a “liberal” way of thinking about things concerning military servicebut I am the first male in my family that DID NOT join the Armed Forces. I have a gay nephew who is struggling to make ends meet, the Armed Forces would be a great opportunity for him.
Try adding that dimension of DADT to the frame and the discriminatory practice that is DADT becomes even more stark and apparent.
Chitown Kev
@Rowen:
Let’s try this issue: 2010 v. 2012 for overturning Prop H8
I am actually neutral about this. But at a time where all sorts of social services are being cut due to the California budget crisis; services that will disproportionaly affect the gay, black, black gay, and even pooer to working class parts of the gay community you mean to tell me that you want to spend 30-40 million dollars on getting a word called marriage (when you already have domestic partnerships).
I agree 100% that seperate is not equal and “marriage” is more than a word. But do consider that California has gone into the financial shithole, AIDS services are being draconically cut and LGBT social services are closing nationwide, you want to solicit money from around the country for a 2010 campaign to overturn Prop 8. (I do want Prop 8 overturned, of course, very, very much. My question is at what cost?)
Chitown Kev
“They were nice, but often times, there was this racial tension of “Why the hell is this white boy sitting with us?” I didn’t feel discriminated against because of my race, I just knew that on the outside, we were different looking. Big deal.”
You have the white privilege (read in this case “cultural baggage”) of seeing it that way, Rowen.
ChristopherH
White people offended by commentary about white privilege…
SHOCKER!
I found that the most effective way to become better aware of my white privilege was to become better acquainted with the suffering of people of color. Here are two excellent books that helped me tremendously:
>> The Autobiography of Malcolm X
and
>> Kaffir Boy
For more about dealing with racism in the LGBT rights movement, check out this article:
http://www.tolerance.org/images/teach/current/Open_Letter.pdf
reluctantcommenter
@reluctantcommenter:
“But might it be that some white gays want to reassert what privilege they can because of the loss of privilege when they come out?”
Don’t you think that’s a messed up and convoluted way to characterize gay white people’s want for equal legal rights? I think white gays, like all gays, want legal protections so they can feel secure. Unlike the way I portrayed gay#s, I think I identify as gay first, and white second. I would not see employment, hate crimes, or marriage rights, as a means to bring me back into the white fold. I will always feel alienated from my family and co-workers, and I won’t dare to speculate how long residual issues of otherness will persist once we are granted equal rights. I think it’s silly that some people seem to think that a few laws are going to undo hundreds of years of ingrained heteronormalism.
reluctantcommenter
@Chitown Kev: that was for you. I always click the “reply” link above and not the “reply” link at the bottom.
reluctantcommenter
@The Gay Numbers:
I wasn’t talking about male privilege, I was wondering aloud, and not necessarily at anyone specific, if Lesbians feel a similar expectation to make a choice between their sex/gender and their sexuality? Are there issues facing lesbians that they think are more important than, DADT, DOMA, UAFA, etc. If so, what are they?
Your characterization of blacks as potentially homophobic, and whites as “clearly” racially hostile…is not what I would consider an objective opinion. Of course, you have every right to feel the way you do, because your experiences may have lead you to that conclusion. But my experiences are different, and I don’t think I could make that statement, or it’s inverse. But I am trying to understand your perspective, so let me put some words in your mouth gay#s. You identify more as black than gay? You face heterosexism from both black and white straight people, as well as racism from gay and straight white people. These conditions are why you feel you’re in a position to choose between your race and your sexuality?
I don’t think white gays are trying to use gays of color to suit their needs. That’s a heavy and insidious accusation which I don’t believe you can support. Mostly, because even though the agenda of groups like HRC don’t take into consideration a broad range of views, the causes they espouse would help gays of all colors. I don’t think you really have a choice between two harms when you invariably stand to benefit in some ways, but admittedly not all. And I’d be interested in hearing if you disagree with that and why.
Rowen
1) DADT. So, are you saying you’re not liking how the gay community is handling DADT? If so, first of all, people ARE saying that good recruits are not being allowed in, JUST because they’re gay. Also, it’s a lot easier for the average person to understand that people who ALREADY have the training and skills to help save lives in the wars we’re already fighting are being discharged JUST because they’re gay.
2) Prop 8. The people spending money on Prop 8 are not tied to the goverment. Unless, HRC and the Mormon Church are shadow organizations, intent on wasting our tax dollars. Sacramento has already wasted time and money on this, so we might as well finish the fight. Furthermore, where is you’re price tag/cut off point where you feel we should say, “So far, there’s nothing equal to marriage, but we’ve already spent ALOT of money fighting this, so I’m totally ok with putting my family in jeopardy and being a second class citizen.”
3) It wasn’t my “white priveledge” or my inherent racism that informed me that it was odd to be sitting with those girls. It was those girls themselves that informed me. and that’s not counting the many jobs I’ve had where I was one of a few white people and experienced a lot of distrust and hostility because I didn’t fit in. I dont’ consider that to be fair play, and is just as bad and shitty as the things I’ve heard others go through. But, oh, wait, it’s not racist when a black person does it, right?
The Gay Numbers
@reluctantcommenter: I don’t care if it sounds messed up so long as I am reflecting the underlying truth.
The Gay Numbers
@reluctantcommenter: You are bullshitting me by changing what i wrote. i don’t respond to people making shit up about what i say. Either really respond to what I say or fuck off.
The Gay Numbers
@Rowen: The whie privilege is your behavior in a nutshell. “How dare I have to go through what everyone else experiences on a daily basis.” The fact you didn’t know about it untilt he situation reversed itself is the privilege of being in power or the majority. You don’t have to deal with it unless you want to. We do.
Julien
Heh; this is an easy arguent to debunk–ESPECIALLY given the picture used to illustrate it.
The only time I see people of color bitch about how unfair life is for htem in the LGBT community; it’s usually for the following reasons:
1) A person of color who is ashamed of the fact that he’s attracted to white guys and has little to NO luck getting them into bed…
2) see above.
If you’re so proud of your race then learn to love your own kind and give two shits about what white fags think.
reluctantcommenter
@The Gay Numbers:
My god, I basically retyped some of the things you wrote verbatim. And where I extrapolated beyond that, I acknowledged it as such. I even SAID I was putting words in your mouth. If you disagree with it, just say so. I’m not bullshitting you. Since you voluntarily comment on this site I thought you were interested in a dialogue.
Rowen
@The Gay Numbers: Actually, as a white male, I’m in the majority, and therefore you’re wrong when you say that I was going through what “everyone” else was. In fact, I was only going through was a minority of the population has to “suffer.”
The Gay Numbers
@reluctantcommenter: saying ou are changing what I said is not an innoculation from being called a jerkf or making stuff up.
The Gay Numbers
@Rowen: You were not going through what a minority goes through. It is impossible by the very dynamic you describe for that to be the case. You went through tsomething, but it is not on the same level.
Rowen
@The Gay Numbers: I never said it was. I was merely pointing out that white people aren’t the only ones to practice self delusion, exclusivity and racism. Big deal. So far, none of you have yet to give a concrete reason as to why the entire gay community as a whole is excluding you. Most of what I’ve read is pure self martyrdom and laziness. When I felt ostracized by every twink and muscle queen, did I sit around and whine about while still going to the bars? No, I got off my ass and found a group of friends and places to hang out where I was accepted. If you have a problem, then stop bitching. Get off your ass and do something about it. The white man isn’t holding you down, and if he is and doesn’t know about it, then FUCKING DO SOMETHING instead of whining on the internet.
Trey
@The Gay Numbers: the fact that Rowan compares white privilege to being ignored by twinks and muscle queens shows that the he’ll never understand it nor does he care. this won’t be the last time that someone thinks that you’re uppity. thanks for adding your thoughts to a discussion that most people don’t have the patience for.
Rowen
@Trey: Trey, did you even read what I wrote? I’m guessing not, since you can’t even spell my name right. But, I guess that’s to be expected since the rampant unspoken racism of America means that you couldn’t get into a proper school like all the white kids.
Trey
@Rowen: Dude, we get it. You think it’s all in our imaginations. People like The Gay Numbers are whiners, and I’m an intellectual lightweight. You’ve made your classic and cliched point. You aren’t the first, and you won’t be the last.
Trey
I think everyone needs to read “Derailing for Dummies:”
http://www.derailingfordummies.com/
Seriously, a lot of these “criticisms” are cliches.
Rowen
@Trey: I don’t think it’s all in our/your imaginations, and in my posts I’ve more then proved that. So far, no one has bothered to fully answer the question, “What should be done?”
Well, Kev did, but in a broad sweeping manner that didn’t really address how things should be done, but more an uneducated critque of how things are being done now.
So, unspecified racism exists and no white person can relate no matter what their background or social status, and any attempts to do so are simply futile because we just won’t get it because we’re white.
If we’re gonna go down that route, just about your entire argument is a bad undergraduate thesis cliche.
The Gay Numbers
@Rowen: No one is arguing uniqueness. But I can see why you need to keep changing your argument to justify your denial, which is kind of the point I am making about you. That you are willfully blind, and you want to be willfully blind. It allows you to suck of the tit of the system that exists while bitching about the instances that your race did not provide you the respect you think it should give you.
The Gay Numbers
@Trey: Thanks for the great link. It is funny that each of the arguments posted here is found there. You are right they really are cliches at this point. I remember having this debate, and having the same sorts of issues with people over sexual orientation. It is so bizare how deep the need is to avoid the conversation.
Trey
@The Gay Numbers: no problem…i think that once people acknowledge white privilege, they can recognize how it leads many to generalize and marginalize others in their everyday conversations and interactions.
RainaWeather
@Chitown Kev: People do not assume I am experienced in sex (or that I even have it!) merely because of my sexual orientation.
I think that’s the one I hate the most. I’m a lesbian and a virgin and (outside of my family and close friends) EVERYONE thinks that I have had sex with every girl I have ever dated and generally every lesbian I have ever known. Also, once I tell a guy in whom I’m not interested that I’m a lesbian, he usually thinks that an invitation to discuss sex with him.
AlwaysGay
@Julien: Correct.
The Gay Numbers
@AlwaysGay: <Retarded.
The Gay Numbers
@Trey: I agree. But, I don’t expect any of these people here, including folks like AlwaysGay, to recognize anything. They wear their ignorance like the Birthers as a badge of courage. This country has a very strong history of know-nothingism. Why should gays be any different in that regard consider we come up out of the same cultures that breed it.
Rowen
@The Gay Numbers: At least I have an argument, as opposed to a vague sense of self righteous indignation, and a complete lack of reading comprehension. But I forgive you.
After all, my white privledge gave me the chance to go to school and learn things, along with giving me affordable health insurance, a mansion, polo lessons and a pony. Should I ever come across you, in your hovel, I’ll remember to be polite to the noble savages you call family, and direct you to the local charity. If they’re not already full of chinamen, negroes and indians and their rampant babies (I know, I know. It’s such a problem, but with their infantile minds, all they can do is have sexual relations when the urge strikes. It’s tragic, really). I’m sorry life has dealt you such a heavy blow to bear, but cheer up! Lead a good life and the Good Lord will reward you after your dead. or, as your religion has it, you’ll actually get to be born into a caste. Until then, I say, “Good day, sir!”
Chitown Kev
@Rowen:
2) I didn’t and would never say don’t fight Prop 8. I’m simply looking at one argument for not fighting what will be a very expensive battle at this time. As opposed to 2012, when the economy is (hopefully) better.
3) Depends on what you define as “racism.” Were you refused promotions, were you shunned from the social set on the job, was it a difficult working enviroment, etc. If not, then I would say that’s racial prejudice but noe a very necessary component of power that I would think of as racism.
Besides, black women ARE NOT the easiest people to work for and.or with, let me tell you.
That has actually happened to me in a heterosexist way (with nearly all black workfrces) and once in a isolated case of racism.
Actually, I do think that you vaguely “get it.”
@Julien:
“A person of color who is ashamed of the fact that he’s attracted to white guys and has little to NO luck getting them into bed…”
Epic fail, I have NEVER had this problem.
Chitown Kev
@reluctantcommenter:
“Unlike the way I portrayed gay#s, I think I identify as gay first, and white second. I would not see employment, hate crimes, or marriage rights, as a means to bring me back into the white fold. I will always feel alienated from my family and co-workers, and I won’t dare to speculate how long residual issues of otherness will persist once we are granted equal rights. I think it’s silly that some people seem to think that a few laws are going to undo hundreds of years of ingrained heteronormalism.”
Hmmmmm…we’re closer than you think.
Remember, “white” is the default of all that is right and good and normal in this society, the “default’ if you will. Therefore you do have the luxury of putting gay first.
Actually (you may be surprised by this)I don’t put either one first nor do I think I can afford to, as a rule. See, we feel almost exactly the same but….if it’s silly to think that a few laws are going to undo hundreds of years of ingrained heteronormalism, then what makes you think that a few laws are going to undo hundreds of years of ingrained “whitenormalism.”
See, you GET IT but…
Part of the mistaken notion here, I think is that you also lose “white privilege” or “male privilege” when you lose heterosexist privilege and that’s not the way works. Loss of privilege in one area doen’t mean the loss of privilege in all areas (says the somewhat recovering but still stereotypical gay male misogynist).
Chitown Kev
I am not accused of being abused, warped or psychologically confused because of my sexual orientation.
Raina Weather, I think this is the one that pisses me off the most.
The Gay Numbers
@Rowen: Eithere you are on crack or unable to read. I have given multiple exmaple and explained how your comments are b.s. Indeed another person chimed in demonstrating your arguments to be cliches defensive posturing that people always due when discussing privilege. You keep reenforcing my point about you.
The Gay Numbers
@Chitown Kev: most of your posts are spot on regarding how the mindset of privilege works. The irony of the many of the posts here in which these peo are bitching about white privilege I keep saying is that in the other instance they expect straight blacks to understand what it means to be gay, but then ignore the key element is that they are straight. That this is the privilege of having straight being seen as “normal” that just like race it can blind you to whatever is perceived as not normal.
I also love your point about how laws can not erase this issue. Many do not understand that concept. That even if you change laws, laws do not change mindsets. I often say of some that what they want is acceptance for them being gay, but the laws do no provide acceptance. Acceptance is a deeper concept that goes into all the norms of society.
That’s why when forced to choose between their race and sexual orientation some will choose race over sexual orientation in terms of identitification. It is because of all the other things that are outside of legal remedies and issues. Ultimately, as I say above, if you are given a choose between the thing you know (in most people’s cases the family and friends they have known out of their lives who are straight) versus an equally hostile greater white gay community, it is not a surprise that many will go with the thing they know.
To me, the inability to even “get” why this is important, is another sign of how privilege works. The “Why shouldn’t you want to hang out with me although I have told you through actions that I am not interested in your imput” way of thinking. We are suppose to give that support anyway despite the hostility. The issue is why? Why should we give it? Saying that legally it will help us is besides the point because it is not sufficient alone for many to face more hostility than they already live with.
The Gay Numbers
@Chitown Kev: Forgot to say- and some want even more than acceptance, they want celebration to the point that there is no difference because each difference is considered just a part of the norm. That kind of thing would be great, but it is not a legal consideration. It is one of what our society is and social networks,e tc.
benlayvey
@Rick
Always the Jews, Eh?
Chitown Kev
Twqo final notes here and I’ll leave this alone.
1) I hate that this turned into a black/white thing. I do wish that we had more Latino and Asian/Pacific Islander input on ths issue. I can’t link to the HRC study right now, but it did show that of all racial groups blacks feel the most accepted within the LGBT community and it’s actually Asian/PI LGBT’s that feel the lewast acceptance and bear the largest brunt of racism in the gay community.
The fact that this post nor any of the comments even discusses Asian Pacific Islanders indicates the “privilege” (in a way) that black folks have as regards this particular (granted the writer is Latino).
tarheel
Here’s some breaking news folks:
The people in this world will always have differences and NO ONE will change that. From the beginning of written history there has always been leaders (through whatever means they needed)and followers (for whatever reasons).
Color, height, weight,gender, sexuality, race, and religion will always be, for some, a reason to be a bigot/hater.
So until we can accept others as equals and treat each other as equals ( which will NEVER happen) we will always have something to bitch about.
Jeton Ademaj
@c0rpusdelicti:
you have quite a talent for mindlessly accusatory tautologies…are you a parody? shtick?
wordhorder
@Rob: Thank you, I agree completely. The shock of learning about White privileged takes time to absorb, and comprehend.
foula
After reading the post, and the comments that followed, I am struck at the precise ways MacDonald-Denis’ points have been illuminated. As a White person who does anti-racist work, I don’t need a pat on the back for my work around privilege or equity. In fact, were that the important part, I would not be doing my own work around ethnicity, race, privilege and oppression. As someone who is queer, and who has been active in our communities for a long time, I have often been struck at the absence of people of color — their images, their voices, their stories, their histories and herstories, and their presence. As a white person, I am responsible to ensure the table is round and large enough for all of us — this does not mean saving the world, or saving anyone for that matter. It does mean that I seek out my own knowledge and learn about communities similar and different than those that I am a part of. It does mean I know and understand that the words and identities connected to the very acronym many of us (lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender) were created by White people, and often leave little room for those that identify as same gender loving, Two Spirit, studs or aggressives. It means I work to reflect the voices of people of color at the organization I work at, be it through books, film, guest speakers, and the like. It means I partner with organizations comprised of people of color, and not think they trust me, and then do a happy dance because we work together. I do happy dances when we work across differences, because of those differences and similarities we share. I don’t expect people of color to trust me — I am reluctant to trust heterosexual people, or people who grew up income brackets that were not synomonous with poor or working class. Not because these groups are “bad”, “evil”, but because experience and history tells me that trust is something that is earned. When whole periods of oppression exist, it is no wonder it is difficult for us to trust one another. Add in those layers of privilege, most of which are unearned, and oppression, many of which are not asked for, and social change and equity get really complicated.
It is not MacDonald-Denis’ responsibility to teach us the ways of people of color within LGBQTSGLTSIA communities. It is us up to us to educate ourselves, and have hard conversations with one another. Today, I see more images of lesbian and bisexual women of color on television — yet, I remember when the only show with a lesbian of color was cancelled (Dark Angel). There are not prominent people of color shown in mainstream media, let alone LGBTQSGLTSIA people of color. Unless you count the ones who get murdered or the ones who are perpetrators. MacDonald-Denis is right, in that, White privilege abounds and it is us up to us white folks who are queer, lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, pick an identity that resonates with your sexual orientation or gender identity, to not only be mindful of our privilege, but be responsible for the stories we don’t know, the histories we don’t know. And, then to ACT.
This means hard conversations, some of which have been started here. It also means being uncomfortable — when was the last time you had a meaningful conversation about race, ethnicity, racism, and intersections of identity? What did you learn about yourself? The other folks involved? What did you want to ask but didn’t because you were afraid? What if more people considered that the reality is oppression — ableism, ageism, racism, sexism, heterosexism, transphobia, anti-religious, etc. — exists, and they exist and look differently to people, that no one of these systems is more or less oppressive, but that the consequences range from invisibility to exploitation to harassment, to violence and murder and suicide? How would this conversation be different?
It is not the job or responsibility of people of color to teach us white folk about their lives — it is not our job as same gender loving, Two Spirit, queer, transgender, bisexual, lesbian and/or gay folk to teach heterosexual people about our lives. Part of being an ally rests in doing much of that work ourselves, rather than asking each other and ourselves to represent the totality of communities we are a part of.
Jeanne Barrack
Post #271, FOULA said it all expertly, clearly and without the frothing of the mouth that many commenters engaged in.
Nothing needs to be added, except, BRAVO, Foula.
Well said.