“I don’t know how anybody could think this is good for your ego,” spiritual leader, author, and activist Marianne Williamson tells Queerty. “To wake up every morning and have somebody saying the most horrifying things about you. This is not good for someone’s ego.”

Williamson is one of three candidates running for the Democratic nomination for president in 2024, along with President Joe Biden and lawyer Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. She announced her candidacy back in March and has been slowly growing her following ever since. A CNN poll conducted by SSRS late last month found her polling at 8%. (The same survey found Biden polling at 60%.)

Her candidacy has been written off by many within the Democratic party as a joke, a long shot, a vanity project, and a ploy to sell more books and increase her followers, none of which she says are true.

“Those who are chopping wood and carrying water for the establishment DNC elite view me as an inconvenience and seem to be willing to stoop very low,” Williamson says. “When you run for president, you’re in a hot kitchen. So I’m not complaining about the heat. I’m just pointing it out.”

Queerty caught up with Williamson over Zoom while she was on the campaign trail. We spoke about her candidacy and her LGBTQ+ agenda, the misinformation surrounding her career and her campaign, and the queer person who has had the greatest impact in her life. Here’s what she had to say…

QUEERTY: First things first, who is the LGBTQ+ person that has had the greatest influence in your life?

WILLIAMSON: My late best friend Richard Cooper. In many ways, he was my soulmate. Richard, plus two other gay men, were and are my daughter’s godfathers. So they played a very important part in her life. I was a single mother and so their role, you know, she needed men in there. And they really provided her with something very important and still do. Richard has passed, of course. But David and Bruce are still here. She recently had a baby and they are god grandparents now.

How did you first meet Richard?

It was during the AIDS crisis. I remember seeing Richard on the other side of the room at an AIDS support group. I actually didn’t know the first night I met him that he was gay. I just felt this strong sense of fate and destiny. And, of course, he made it clear to me the very next day what the parameters were on this relationship. [Laughs]

I studied your campaign website and looked closely at your LGBTQ+ agenda. It’s expansive. I counted a total of, I think, 20 bullet points of things you want to accomplish for queer people, ranging from fighting for the Equality Act to funding houseless relief programs for queer youth to combating police abuse against gay people. How do you plan to prioritize that agenda? And where do you begin?

Well, I’m particularly concerned about transgender Americans. We should all be right now. And one of the first things I would do as president is give them the status of special protection. And I would also direct the Department of Justice to vigorously investigate and enforce any civil rights violations against transgender individuals. This is very serious, and I am very concerned.

Why do you feel that you are better equipped to tackle LGBTQ+ issues than your chief opponent, President Biden?

I’m not better equipped. It’s just that I would. He’s the one who has the power of the presidency. So, right now, he’s far more equipped. The point is he’s not doing it. I mean, he tweets his support during Pride. But why isn’t he designating them as a status for special protection right now?

Biden’s track record on queer issues since taking office has actually been pretty good. A lot of people consider him a strong ally.

He needs to use the bully pulpit and say to the American people that all men are created equal. That is the principle on which we stand. The Declaration of Independence is our North Star.

I would do what I said at the DOJ. I think it’s important. And I say this to you, as someone who gets a little, like, “enough is enough” with thinking that if you just put someone in your administration that that necessarily denotes diversity. I don’t live in that place. But I think in the case of transgender people, it would mean something because it’s not just cosmetic.

OK, so, as president, you would appoint a trans person to your cabinet. The president is also responsible for appointing Supreme Court justices–

[Laughs] That would be interesting! That would be very interesting!

Look, no, in all seriousness, I would not enter the presidency having promised the American people that I would appoint to the Supreme Court any particular gender, ethnic, religious, or racial identity. That doesn’t work for me. The Supreme Court is very important. It should be whoever is the best person for that job, particularly now.

So you won’t commit right now to appointing an LGBTQ+ person to that particular job?

It’s an interesting idea. I had not thought of it, I admit that. It would be good for America. If somebody gave me a short list to consider, and somebody was LGBTQ+, I’d go, “Oh, now, that’s interesting!” I would think long and hard. It had not occurred to me, and neither would I announce it to begin with. But if, in fact, that was the best person, I would enjoy seeing the country’s reaction.

I want to talk briefly about the start of your career. You began as a spiritual leader and then went on to publish several books, guiding people towards deeper, more soulful living. What’s your take on the spiritual state of Donald Trump‘s soul, and what you might say to him if you were to meet?

I would want to be polite. I would want to certainly debate his positions. I hope to be running for president against him. I would want to keep my debates with him high-minded, although I know that he would be tempting me and seeking to bait me at every possible turn. I must admit, I have my nickname picked out. Would you like me to give you the exclusive?

Yes, please. I want that exclusive.

Donald, darling. “Donald, darling. I saw that tweet this morning. I don’t know that the Adderall has set in.”

I would love to see his reaction to that.

Actually, there is a story I can tell you about Donald Trump.

Sure.

After the p*ssy tape came out, I got a call. And I don’t remember if it was TMZ. Do you remember?

The tape was Access Hollywood.

Okay, maybe it was Access Hollywood. They called me and said I was mentioned in that tape. I said, “Really?” They said, “Yes, he said, ‘Who’s Marianne Williamson?'” And Billy Bush said, “She gives these talks and she’s been very active in the AIDS community and so forth.” And Donald Trump said, “Really? Is she hot?” I was 52 years old at that time, by the way. And Billy Bush responded, “Nah. She’s old.” And it’s funny because Access Hollywood asked me at the time if I’d like the tape, and I said, “No, I don’t want to touch it with a 10 foot pole.” Today, I wish I had it. It just might come in handy.

While we’re on the topic of Hollywood and entertainment, let’s talk about The View, which is one of the most-watched daytime talk shows in America. They haven’t been the most friendly towards you —

I’ve noticed.

Which is surprising to me since the show is built on the premise of amplifying women’s voices —

Doesn’t apply to me, apparently.

What’s your take on their treatment of you?

Sunny Hostin talked about her uncle with AIDS and how my beliefs had offended her. Let me just say this: My own sister died of cancer. I sat at the deathbeds of scores of people who died of AIDS. I’ve had more experience with sufferers of AIDS than she can even imagine. And the last thing I need to be schooled by Sunny Hostin on is the reality of the ravages of disease.

If they were to invite you on to the show —

I tweeted, let me go on! Let me come on! Let me come on either to show their audience that they’re wrong about me or to show their audience who they are.

What’s the biggest thing people get wrong about you?

First of all, the whole crystal ball lady. There’s a term I’ve heard in AA circles, but I hear that it came from elsewhere. “Contempt prior to investigation.” I often see people commenting on my books, or about my lectures, or on my work who know nothing about it. They clearly have not read my books and know nothing about the work I’ve done or my life. But they keep going on about it. Their caricature is based on some unanimous anonymous quote somewhere, some hit piece. I’ve had a 40-year career, I believe, of dignity, working on very serious issues. People’s lies about my career don’t change the truth.

Actually, one of the loudest criticisms made about your presidential run is that’s it’s all just a ploy to enhance your career, to sell more books, to increase your followers.

Politics has been devastating for me commercially. In my field of spirituality and personal transformation, the way to make money, the way to sell books, is to never mention politics. The idea that this activity has in any way made me money is absurd. But particularly the idea that it’s sold books is absurd, because the people who like my books don’t like my political activities.

Those who are chopping wood and carrying water for the establishment DNC elite view me as an inconvenience and seem to be willing to stoop very low. Lying about me on my beliefs about disease on The View, the president’s press secretary making fun of me as though I have a crystal ball. You know, I’m not a victim. When you run for president, you’re in a hot kitchen. So I’m not complaining about the heat. I’m just pointing it out.

The DNC has announced it doesn’t plan to host presidential primary debates in 2024. You’ve criticized this, although traditionally parties don’t hold debates when an incumbent president is running for reelection.

When I was young, Bobby Kennedy Sr. and Eugene McCarthy primaried the sitting President Lyndon B. Johnson. No one considered it weird. So this narrative that it’s simply not done is inaccurate. Because when I was young, it absolutely was done. It was simply considered democracy.

What is traditional is that the political party remains in the background until the people have spoken. And then when the people have decided who their candidate is, that is when the party is supposed to come forward and do everything they can to support him or her.

What is new, different, and awful is a political party making no bones about the fact that they’re doing everything possible to shoehorn in their preferred candidate.

Are you concerned at all of having a Nader effect by challenging a Democratic candidate and potentially —

You can’t be a spoiler if you’re running in the primary. Nader ran as a third party. The spoiler effect does not apply here. How can you be a spoiler if you’re running in the primary?

So if you don’t win the primary, will you drop out and endorse whoever the winner is in the general? Or would you run as a third party?

Any assumption you have makes no sense because I have made no assumptions. We’re not there yet.

Fair enough. 2024 is still a ways away. But the stakes are incredibly high, especially for LGBTQ+ people. Donald Trump is widely expected to be the Republican nominee. If President Biden were to be the Democratic nominee but then lose in the general election because of a challenger from within his own party, because of a fracture, that would be a return to —

Wait. Okay, take what you just said. In 2016, the Republicans had many, many candidates. They still won. So what you just did was to parrot the narrative that somehow, if more people run in the Democratic primary this season, that that “fractures” the party, which will weaken the president. I think the opposite. What might weaken the president is the fact that they’re trying to suppress these other candidates.

Listen, we’re supposed to think that he’s going to be up for the job of debating Trump, but he won’t debate Marianne Williamson or Robert Kennedy, Jr.? That would only make him a stronger candidate and give people more confidence.

I guess that’s where the issue of high stakes comes in because —

So let’s not let people see that he’s got some weaknesses? And just throw him out there to run against Trump? And that’ll fix it?

He did beat Trump once before.

He did. And I think he deserves credit and gratitude for that. But 2024 is going to be a different race than 2020. He’s not going to be able to hang out in a basement —

You really think he hung out in a basement?

It was COVID. I’m not saying he shouldn’t have. But I’m saying, you know, because of COVID, he did not have to travel. People are already complaining that he hasn’t been on any campaign stops this time around. He hasn’t made any campaign appearances. People are already mumbling about that.

We’re almost out of time, but since it’s Pride season, I wanted to ask what message you have for LGBTQ+ Americans this month, particularly trans people who are under siege by the right?

I hope that transgender Americans and all LGBTQ+ right now, but particularly transgender, realize how many Americans see what’s happening and are deeply concerned. Something’s very wrong. I grew up with stories of what happens when groups of people are scapegoated and targeted. The problem is not to be minimized.

But I also know that when Americans are awake, to a threat, we handle the threat. And I know I’m one of millions of Americans who are awake to that threat and will do whatever is necessary to stand for the American ideal of equality for all. Transgender Americans are Americans, and they are privy to equality before the law and equality before all aspects of society, because I believe that they’re equal before God.

Finally, before I let you go, I want to bring this back to your friend Richard. What do you think he would say about his soulmate Marianne Williamson running for president today?

[Laughs] He wanted nothing to do with politics. And he would not be happy that I mentioned his name. He used to say to me, “The image I get is elder stateswoman. You’re going to be an elder statesman.” That’s what I remember him saying. But what would he think about my talking to you? He wanted nothing to do with anything like that!

I think he would be a big fan of Queerty!

[Laughs] I know he would. He definitely would. But he’d say, “Leave me out of it!”

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

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