Porn + Race

Michael Lucas Takes on Black Porn Stars (Not In That Way)

mlucas1

Never shy to discuss topics he considers himself an expert on, Michael Lucas stoked the race fire earlier this month with a few words on why, in his view, there aren’t enough black men in gay porn. Simply put: Homophobia. The black community hates “the gay lifestyle” too much to put black penises in black butts. Or something. Like much of what Lucas writes or does online, his missive drew its critics. Including black porn stars.

Like Diesel Washington, who Lucas dubs “THE PORN STAR WHO GOT IT ALL WRONG.”

Washington responded to Lucas’ comments (in tw33n [email protected]) and Lucas responded to Washington with his own in-line response (in bold), because THIS IS HOW INTERNET DIALOGUE WORKS:

Now lets talk about the whole M.L. thing, I read his blog about the Homophobia in the Black Community….BULLSHIT…… M.L. knows nothing about the situation… (Really? Do I not read newspapers, watch TV, or listen to rap?) He really needs to stop opening his mouth about subjects he knows nothing about…. He really should stick to talking about what he knows best…..The Russian Jew thing!!! I don’t care if he employs Black Models in his movies or what not… U cant speak about things that U know nothing about…. I had to check M.L. a few times at the Gay Porn Summit in 2008 for making comments that he knew nothing about (what the hell is he talking about?). Its all Hype and Bullshit and he is taking things too far…. I’m here to give him a reality check… STOP TALKING ABOUT THINGS THAT DON’T EFFECT YA!!! (Actually, it does affect me very much, as it affects any gay man, no matter what color he is). Ur not Black, or ever will be Black, (It’s very insightful. I will never be black, but I see no problem talking about any issue that any community of the world has) so stop talking on the behalf of the Black Community… (Actually, I never did talk on behalf of the black community)

dieselwashington

And bless our controversy-loving hearts, Lucas didn’t end there:

Diesel Washington is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, and he decided to make an Anti-Semitic comment, where he basically said that I should shut up and only talk about the “Jewish thing.” This points out the Anti-Semitism in the African-American community, which I believe goes back to the 1960s (Check out articles here and here). I don’t take Anti-Semitism lightly, so I left a message for Keith Webb at Titan. I haven’t heard back from him yet. But I wanted to bring it to the industry’s attention. Lots of industry professionals are Jews, and I don’t think that such comments should be tolerated.

On a sidenote, I’d like to point out Diesel Washington’s confusion. Diesel is saying that in order to comment on the black community, one should be black. WRONG! One doesn’t have to be black in order to comment about African Americans, just like one doesn’t have to be white to talk about the white community.

PS: Please don’t get me wrong. I am very friendly with the guys at Titan Media. I collaborated with them on projects and the comments by Diesel Washington does not reflect at all on Titan Media, though I believe that Titan should take appropriate actions.

In order to comment on the porn industry, do we need to be in porn?

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300 Comments

  • Chris

    Everytime I see that Queerty has written something on race, I cringe. And I beg myself silently not to read it. But I can’t help it, I do it anyway. It’s hard to turn away from a trainwreck.

  • naprem

    They’re both as big a douche as each other.

  • Alec

    Does he still think President Barack Obama is an American hating closet Muslim, too? Or did that go out of style?

    Good lord.

  • Chitown Kev

    @naprem:
    Yep.

  • Aaron J.

    This is pretty idiotic commentary coming from Michael Lucas. But what’s new?

  • hardmannyc

    I did a thing with Diesel Washington at the Black Party. He may well be the tallest person I’ve ever met. He seemed like a really nice guy.

  • Aaron J.

    You “did a thing”? Can you please elaborate? ;)

  • Chitown Kev

    Where Michael Lucas gets off track here, is that now he wishes to expand Diesel’s asshole comments into another referendum on the African-American community in terms of anti-Semitism as opposed to holding DW accountable for his comments. I am quite sure that one could go back into contemporary Russian and even Soviet history and find many, many, many anti-Semitic remarks. I mean, what society doen’t have elements of anti-Semitism. Why Lucas chooses to stoke these flames is beyond me, he really should speak more on the virulent homophobia in his native land and the anti-Semitism there as opposed to throwing cheap shots at the African American community.

    As an African American, I do NOT think that one needs to be black in order to level criticism. But to be fair, Lucas should also focus on the many many alliances that the African American and Jewish communities have formed over the years (I.e. the founding of the NAACP, Jews that worked in the civil rights movement, etc.). To extrapolate from Diesel Washington’s asshole comment to a gross generalization about the African American community is a cheap shot and Lucas has really begun to cross the line into out and out racism, it seems. And that is not a charge that I level lightly.

  • cufflinks

    Oh Michael, you have such a lovely penis. And your porn is really well crafted. Why do you have to ruin everything by talking and blogging and stuff?

  • Alec

    @Chitown Kev: I think you’re way too forgiving of Lucas. This isn’t the first time (he compared the Koran to Mein Kampf, he’s an uncritical supporter of virtually everything the state of Israel does (save, tellingly, its less than gay friendly religious nationalists), etc.).

    He accused Obama of being obsessed with race, which really amused me. Since the candidate, at the time, was doing everything in his power to avoid being cast as the also ran black dude. But hey…whatever floats Lucas’ boat. It isn’t like he has lost a customer, just a great deal of respect for someone who has otherwise made some fairly positive contributions to the gay community.

  • tamas

    If Michael ever shows his face in Budapest, he’s a dead man. He left so many debts here by choosing not to pay hotel bills and paying the few people his company hired to work – He’s a loser and his 15 minutes are up.

  • afrolito

    Michael Lucas is a well known moron, and asshole. I see that fucker all over Chelsea looking pouty and stupid all the time. His stereotypical generalizations about black people are as full of shit, as his posturing, and boring ass porn. Diesel may be a dick, but his comments to Michael were the truth. He doesn’t know a thing about black people beyond the stereotypes. As i’ve said time and again, black people are no more or less homophobic than any other group.

    His trying to paint Diesel (and by extension all blacks) as anti-semitic is just cynical and bulshit. I think Diesel is a douche, but I didn’t see anything in what he wrote that can be called anti-semitism with a straight face.

  • Chitown Kev

    @Alec:

    I mean, James Baldwin himself wrote about anti-Semitism in the African American community of Harlem in 1948, I believe, so it’s not like Lucas saying anything that’s new.

    I am forgiving neither Lucas nor Washington, but Lucas’ escalation of what seems to be a personal tiff is unwarranted.

  • Chitown Kev

    @afrolito:

    Well…there are elements of it in the African American commuunity, Afrolito, let’s be honest. Usually it’s an outgrowth of black nationalist movements, but then again any nationalistic movement (i.e. the Nazi, The Klan, etc.) is anti-Semetic. Black nationalism is no different from any other form of nationalism in that respect. And only very few blacks embrace many of the tenets of black nationalism.

  • Chitown Kev

    @Chris:
    LOL.

  • cufflinks

    @Chitown Kev: As Chris Rock famously said once, black people don’t hate Jews. Black people hate white people. They don’t have time to differentiate between them all.

  • Chitown Kev

    @cufflinks:

    That was exactly the point James Baldwin made. The last sentence in the essay “The Harlem Ghetto” said that in terms of finding scapegoats, “Georgia has the Negro and Harlem has the Jew.”

    And I don’t hate white people and I never have. What Chris Rock said is fucked up. But I do understand why he said it.

  • afrolito

    @Chitown Kev:

    There is anti-semitism in every community. Why single out blacks as being particularly so? Blacks have never had the power to discriminate or oppress jews (or anyone else), and we certainly aren’t the ones who gassed 6 million of them.

  • cufflinks

    @Chitown Kev: Oh I’m a white guy (half jewish here) and I TOTALLY understand why Chris Rock said that. It’s a perfect example of a joke that is funny because it’s true. I know lots of black people who have been nothing but lovely to me but I know my US history and have nothing but sympathy for a black person who might “hate” white people.

  • afrolito

    @cufflinks:

    I don’t agree that blacks should hate white white people. It’s a waste of time, and ultimately self defeating. As a people we have huge obstacles and problems facing our communities, that need all of our attention and energy. It’s great that you understand the roots of where that negative emotion comes from though. Getting past denial, and confronting reality is the first stage of healing.

  • CHIP

    These people are both escalating it because anyone who took a public relations/marketing class in college knows, almost any publicity is good publicity (murdering, stealing money, etc. obviously bad publicity).

    By going back and forth about this, they make the gossip website rounds, we have their names in our heads, and are now more than likely rent/buy a video or product they are attached to because of reading this on queerty.

    Bravo to both parties! Wouldn’t be surprised if they share a publicist…

  • cufflinks

    @CHIP: So true. There’s nothing like a good feud to raise everyone’s profiles. I just hate it when porn stars feel that the people who jerk off to their movies also want to know what they think about Israel, terrorism and race relations. I loved the “feud” that Michael was having with Chad Hunt over whose cock was larger, his or Ben Andrews’s, but all this polarizing reactionary political stuff is ruining my hardon.

    I used to think Michael was insanely attractive until I started reading his blog. Now he just seems like a weird whiny imperious queen who thinks he’s a lot smarter than he really is and I didn’t need to know that.

  • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

    @Chris:

    I KNOW!!!!!!!!

    ;)

    It’s soo bad, it’s good! It’s a mixture of weird reporting and crazy commenters!

  • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

    @afrolito:

    Mmm, no but the have the power to discriminate amongst each other in terms of skin colour (high yella etc etc) and also between africans, afro-americans, afro-carribeans…

    So I call bullshit on that.

    I know plenty of blacks who discriminate all the want. Like I told a womean I met from a grass roots organisation trying to create cultural diversity in a middle class town in the UK, you are human first and black second.

    People are people. And they judge and discriminate.

    And Lucas has every right to discuss race in porn.

    Washington, who NEVER pairs up with black guys and who says that he jus not feeling it.

    Wtf.

  • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

    @Chitown Kev:

    I agree.

    We (blacks) have a very fascinating relationsip with the Jews that is a mixture of pure support in Civil Rights to persecution in South Africa ( a lot of the racist whites in SA were Jews who’d left the UK)..

  • mikeandrewsdantescove

    I disagree with Michael Lucas on this. There are some fine African American porn actors out there – Matthew Rush!

    Mike
    Music Videos – Rod Daily & Pat Bateman
    http://www.dlist.com/haight

  • GayIsTheWay

    Michael Lucas is 100% right. Anti-gay bigotry and anti-semitism are thick in the black community. Many black gays do not want to confront the problem and get very irritated when a non-black points it out. Look white gays have taken on anti-gay white people for decades. I remember last year when Obama went on a black only religious tour with black anti-gay bigot Donnie McClurkin and very few black gay people raised any issues. Only when white gay people spoke up did we here from black gays and it was in DEFENSE of Donnie McClurkin. They said rich white gay people were picking on black million McClurkin, white gay people have a race problem, there are white anti-gay bigots too etc. Obama kept McClurkin on the tour and added a white gay preacher. It was a DISGUSTING political move on Obama’s part knowing full well that the black audiences would dismiss the white gay preacher because he’s white and gay. Obama ten months later made another sick political move by bringing white anti-gay bigot Rick Warren to his inauguration. Once again white gay people spoke up and Obama added white gay preacher Gene Robinson to the pre-inauguration celebration which they purposefully arranged so no one could hear him.

  • BobP

    Has anyone seen how gays are portrayed on black sit-coms? I’m just saying, if that’s not homophobia, I don’t know what is.

  • ousslander

    John from England that is the first time I heard abou the jews who ran south africa. I think you wqould find most afrikkaners were anit-semitic also. Bu then you probrably think that jews control the media and all of banking through some international cabal.

    Diesel sounds like abully who can’t make a a verbal point, “you better watch out or else.”

  • Dabq

    The sweeping generalizations and wrong words from a lame porn producer and immigrant who like most of them have no clue about the history of race and sexuality in this country leave much to be desired. And, the same ones here who are agreeing that all blacks are homophobes need to get off the porn line and into the real world, all groups are homophobic, no one has dibs on it, some are just more loud and uncouth about it. And, those who agree with him I bet were as quiet as church mice when the Prop 8 gay hate machine and racial slurs were flowing ever so freely, so, a big yawn to a porno guy and his insights into race relations, but, then again, porn is for those with no imagination anyway, so, being vapid is not anything new.

  • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

    @ousslander:

    Did I say ‘ran’??

    Now that would be silly as we have the Afrikkaners PLUS the good ol Brits who did shit too…

    Jus read up on it, it’s really interesting.

    A lot of Jews who left Poland, Germany etc and settled in the UK around the 2nd World etc, a good percentage went to live in South Africa and did really well but were unfortunately really racist.

    Short memories.

    Like I said, we have a fascinating relationship from loyally supportive like with the Civil Rights to other stuff..

    Just humans being humans, y’know?

  • Tré Xavier

    Being that I assumed identity of “Ted Knowles” that started Michael Lucas on his initial tirade, I feel I should say something as I have on some lesser known blogs.

    Michael Lucas may have some valid points, but his trying to pat himself on the back for hiring Black talent is proposterous. And anyone who can’t see that is deaf, dumb, and blind.

    Michael Lucas may have used many men of color, but the medium to dark complexions have only been used for token purposes. Just like all the other big names. And it’s not that there is a shortage of Black talent. It’s that he wouldn’t use them UNTIL NOW most likely because sales are down in this recession, and he wants to get whatever customers he can to keep up profits. Customers who are part of the buying public whose presence he has long ignored.

    Michael Lucas’ attack on Diesel is no surprise to me. He tried claiming on another blog(http://clipsandchips.blogspot.com/2009/03/re-re-michael-lucas-responds.html) that my attacks on him is because I’m not what he’s looking for. It’s not that at all. It’s because my time was wasted, because if I’m not what he was looking for, then explain these facts:
    (1) 5 invitations from either him or his casting people between 2005 and 2008. The last 2 of those invitations coming long after I stopped submitting a new application to give updated information.
    (2) The fact that neither my face or physique never differs from my pictures, so what you see in a picture is what you are getting in person. And according to most people, what you get in person is better than the picture. Therefore, if my pictures motivated the invitations, and there is easy to access footage of me in action, then something in my presence made him weary of me. And people do not find me intimidating UNLESS they want me to be the dumb pornstar, or dimwitted go-go boy.

    And Michael Lucas definitely wants the dumb pornstar, which as you can see by my articulation that I am not. Why do you think he left his comment about me on a lesser known blog. He knows I would bring all that I’ve just stated here to light, therefore showing that his claims about me to be bogus.

    Is their homophobia in the Black community? YES. Just as it is in many communities in this coutry and all over the world, and that includes the White American community. So people need to stop passing the buck on who’s the bigger bigot. That goes for Michael Lucas and all those of you who side with Michael Lucas COMPLETELY. You may side with him SOMEWAHT, but to side with him totally makes you a bigger fool than him, because the follower of a fool is a bigger fool than the original.

  • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

    @ousslander:

    Lol, Jews DO control all media dude, jus look at the names…connnections etc…it’ll be clear to you..

  • Chitown Kev

    @afrolito:

    uh, Afrolito, that’s what I explicitly said, taht you find anti-Semitism in every community and in every type of “nationalism.” Black communities and black nationalism is no different. But I don’t see black people defacing Jewish cemeteries as they had been doing in France, either, I really think that anti-semitism is not a very big problem at all in the AA community, though it is always to be condemned wherever I hear it or see it.

  • hardmannyc

    Aaron: I don’t kiss and tell.

    John from England: It seems to me that a lot of people of Jewish extraction are smart and enterprising and accomplished and have achieved a lot of success. The people who subscribe to that religion don’t “control” anything. Now Please go and fuck yourself, you anti-Semitic twit.

  • Chitown Kev

    @John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s):

    Yes, and that’s what Baldwin was doing 60 years ago. He called bullshit on the African American community on it. I have no problem with Lucas calliny Diesel an antiSemite asshole on this, there was no reason for DW to bring Lucas’ Jewishness into it.

    Although I would think that Lucas should know that his homeland is far more virulently anti-semetic than Diesel could ever be.

  • Chitown Kev

    @GayIsTheWay:

    There is a lot of bullshit in this with one thing that is very, very true.

    But you know what, you sound like a fucking racist to me, so I really don’t want to take the time to enlighten you, though I may address the board on the one thing that you (though not absolutely) true and that I will condemn in the harshest terms. But I want to give you a pink sheets award anty-way, bitch.

  • Christopher Riordan

    Does ANYONE really care what Michael Lucas has to say…… about ANYTHING? If If want more ignorance in my life, I’ll visit the Bush Family in Texas!

  • getreal

    It seems to me however imperfectly he is doing it he is trying to start a dialogue and that is a good thing. As a black person I have never understood why non-black people are supposed to have an opinion on our community. Frank discussions release tension and increase understanding between communities be they black and white or gay and straight. There IS a lot of homophobia in the black community and cause a lot of self-hating behavior among black man. One example is the whole down low culture where gay black men fearing societal pressure dupe women into sham relationships/marriages. These men often engage in unsafe sex and are spreading HIV through the black community. The HIV rates in washington dc (a majority black city) is equal to the HIV rates of sub-sahara Africa. I think homophobia in the black community needs to be addressed it is helping create a public health crisis. I feel that anyone with insight has a right to be heard I don’t think it matters what their race is.

  • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

    @hardmannyc:

    Get a life.

    AGAIN.

    Did you not understand the convo with Chitown???

    I said that the JEWS and BLACKS have an amazing relationship that is both GOOD and BAD in amazing ways.

    Something that many, many people have written about. No news!

    I’m as anti-semitis as you have a small dick.

    Yeah, coming out of nothing.

    I gave you facts, now YOU tell me facts as to why my opinions are based on some anti-semetic rant…?

  • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

    @Chitown Kev:

    But that wasn’t the point.

    All Lucas goes on and on about is how bad Russia was for Jews. I’ve read about this too, it’s complexed..the ogliarachs but why did they become them? Because they were persecuted against..

    Lucas is a lot of things but one thing he has gone on about is the appalling treatment of Jews in Russia. Which is really, really bad.

    But Deisel is black and this was brought on through Deisel using the ‘black race card’.

    Diesel asked for this by going on and on about how he ‘aint black’ and shouldn’t be going on about this issue.

    WTF?

    Lucas is opionated. About EVERYTHING regardless of his obsessive agenda about Jews, Obama or Jews….

    The dude is opionated. So why shouldn’t he have an opinion about black porn stars when he is the ONLY big star production company that has used black porn stars in a non Titan-Diesal W way??

  • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

    @getreal:

    Sigh

    Why so narrow minded?

    “As a black person I have never understood why non-black people are supposed to have an opinion on our community.”

  • hardmannyc

    John from England: You post too much. Shut the fuck up.

  • Trey

    I still don’t understand why people believe this down-low phenomenon to be a strictly african-american problem. Last time i checked every race has its closet-cases, and they are the result of homophobia in their respective communities.

  • Chitown Kev

    @John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s):

    I didn’t know that about Lucas about anti-Semitism in Russia, I haven’t been a follower of his blog, really (although I am a fan of his films).

    And read my posts above, I think D. Washington made an anti-semitic comment. My point is that Lucas unnecessarily upped the ante on an issue that he knows very little about.

  • getreal

    I think EVERYONE black or white has a perspective that deserves to be heard I hate that I made that typo.

    @Trey: Yes there are closet cases in every community. Down low men are not just closet cases. Choosing to not be out is a personal choice. Down low black men dupe women into fraudulent relationships, create then destroy families, lie and often spread HIV as they are not as careful as gay men in their sexual practices. The statistics speak for themselves. There are down low men in every community but there is a huge culture of it in the black community and they are causing huge problems.

  • Chitown Kev

    @getreal:
    especially in the church and especially with all those tired queens that Miss Donnie surrounds herself with, that’s the one thing that Gay Is the Way hits out of the Park.

    He’s still a racist as far as I am concerned, but he’s not wrong about that.

  • Chitown Kev

    “I remember last year when Obama went on a black only religious tour with black anti-gay bigot Donnie McClurkin and very few black gay people raised any issues. Only when white gay people spoke up did we here from black gays and it was in DEFENSE of Donnie McClurkin. They said rich white gay people were picking on black million McClurkin, white gay people have a race problem, there are white anti-gay bigots too etc. Obama kept McClurkin on the tour and added a white gay preacher. It was a DISGUSTING political move on Obama’s part knowing full well that the black audiences would dismiss the white gay preacher because he’s white and gay. Obama ten months later made another sick political move by bringing white anti-gay bigot Rick Warren to his inauguration. Once again white gay people spoke up and Obama added white gay preacher Gene Robinson to the pre-inauguration celebration which they purposefully arranged so no one could hear him.”

    On this point, I agree with the racist. (full disclosure here, I despise many AA churches myself for reasons not limited to the homophobia).

    And then She Who Shall Not Be Named had the stunningly unmitigated gall to blame white gays in the Obama campaign for Donnie McClurkin. How the twisted bitch came up with that one, I’ll never know.

  • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

    @hardmannyc:

    No, say it aint so!

    :(

  • Trey

    @getreal: everything that you just described happens in every community. Ted Haggard is on the down low. Mark Foley is on the down low. Exodus International is a down low factory. There’s a thriving business for porn that stars young straight men who are “gay for pay.” I would say that many of these men are on the down low.

    I don’t understand why people only use down low when talking about african-american men.

  • getreal

    @Chitown Kev: I agree you see so many down low black men at these ant-gay churches. It is an issue many people rationalize by saying “there are down low men in every community”. I don’t think there is any community where the down low practice is more pervasive or responsible for more collateral damage than in the black community.

  • Chitown Kev

    @getreal:

    I mean, New Life and Miss Haggard was just as bad, to be frank about it, if Miss Haggard hadn’t gone outside the church family, he would have never been caught.

  • Chitown Kev

    @Trey:

    True, but you did begin to see the terminology “DL” applied to Ted Haggard, and now you are seeing it with the Weber story. It’s expanding to includie all cultures, not simply AA culture. Slang has a tendency to do that.

  • Chitown Kev

    Where is Michael Lucas in all this, why isn’t he raging on the message board with some grand statement? One thing we know for sure, he is a media whore (and there’s nothing wrong with that).

  • Trey

    @Chitown Kev: It just bothers me when people use the down low culture as evidence of the “rampant” homophobia of the african-american community. yes, there is a problem with homophobia, but no more than in other communities.

  • getreal

    I think the difference is that at least Ted Haggert was remorseful of lying and he used condoms. When you look at the black men in the DL culture the arrogance and ignorance of safe sex is astounding. I read a post on mediatakeout .com a DL man’s manifesto if you can disregard some ghetto and or homophobic comments it really underscores the anger and fear that black women are feeling about the whole dl black man thing. They are scared for their lives because these men are infecting black women in large numbers with HIV often within the confines of marriage. I’m sick of black men in the gay community making excuses for these men and aiding and abetting them by dating or having sex with them.

    http://www.mediatakeout.com/2009/31541-inside_the_mind_of_a_downlow_brotha__a_secretly_gay_man_explains_his_agenda_in_his_downlow_manifesto.html

  • Chitown Kev

    @getreal:

    Ted Haggard only used a condom because Mike Jones insisted on it. (And Mike Jones was not the only action that Haggard was getting.) And when the bitch was smoking tina (which Mike Jones did not approve of) who knows what other dangerous activities that he did. I mean, I don’t want to know all of his sexual proclivities, but I KNOW it’s deeper than what’s been in the media so far.

  • Trey

    @getreal: if you think my hesitation to make sweeping generalizations is me making excuses for closeted guys who infect their spouses then so be it. i’m not going to change your mind.

  • afrolito

    How did this thread become about the “DL SYNDROME”, which is an incredibly bogus term btw?

    DL is just another term for the closet, which makes it seem like gay men of color are somehow more apt to be deceptive about their sexuality than white gay men. TOTAL BULLSHIT. I’ve known plenty of white gay men who are leading outwardly “straight” lives, but are secretly gay. Why is that not considered a pathology worthy of study dissection? Of course this thread was derailed by the usual suspect(s) who have no fucking clue about what they are talking about, but need to chime in with their ridiculous agenda any chance they get.

    Lucas is probably at home with his sugar daddy eating this crap up. He lives for this stuff.

  • getreal

    @Chitown Kev: This is not about not about one instance of DL behavior. This is about an explosion of HIV among black women and DL black men are the culprits. I’m not saying there are not DL people in other communities but statistically speaking they are not doing the damage to their community that dl black men are doing.When you read this guys manifesto and the opinions of a group of ex-DL men on Oprah there is an arrogance and an entitlement that is sickening.

  • getreal

    @Trey: I did not mean you specifically and in no way meant to offend you.

  • Chitown Kev

    @getreal:

    Wow. Ghetto, homophobic, and racist. I had to stop reading it.

    But most of the post did make a point of saying, it’s not the sex itself as much as it’s the lie.

    Man, I’m glad I have never had to live like that.

  • Chitown Kev

    @afrolito:

    Oh, who appointed you the arbiter of all black queens and our opinions, please!

    Get real, I wasn’t sure whether that was a DL brotha or a plant but the conversation was real enough.

  • getreal

    No one called it a syndrome. The termed was coined by the men who live this way. Living closeted is not the same as a DL lifestyle. Closeted people don’t come out that is a far cry from men who dupe women into risky sex through trickery. This thread was about homophobia in the black community and the DL culture is a product of that. As a person who does volunteer work with HIV infected women and children in LA I will tell you it is a huge problem and a threat to the black community. The many, many woman who have come to the agency I volunteer with who were infected by their DL partners think it is a very big deal. I wonder at the agenda of people who want to sweep this issue under the carpet and not discuss it. If someone does not like any post on here they are free to ignore it.

  • GayIsTheWay

    Anti-gay bigotry is pervasive everywhere. Every single anti-gay bigot needs to be confronted.

  • getreal

    @Chitown Kev: I think if we as a community address it as much as possible and the problem of homophobia maybe men won’t feel the need to live like this. It is unfortunate that there are so many hatemongers on a black website but there were some earnest posts there.I think it is a dialogue we need to start having as a people more.

  • getreal

    @GayIsTheWay: Co-sign

  • Chitown Kev

    @GayIsTheWay:
    Yep. I agree.

    Although that comment of yours about this pervasive black anti-Semitism was wayyyyyyyy out there and very racist (cue in Hymietown and cue in Louis Farrakhan if you want, there were many in black communities that denounced those comments)

  • Chitown Kev

    @getreal:

    Well, I think that afrolito is bitching about talking about this in this particular thread, which he does have a point. It’s just that, IMO, afrolito doen’t call black folks on their BS.

    I am not really in a position to comment on DL behavior in black communities. I haven’t read about it. I don’t really come in contact with DL brothers, that I know of. On the few occasions that I am…out, shall we see, I notice things. But I don’t live physically in the black community, though I have had black women tell me some of the things they have done to accomodate DL brothers once they found out…

  • Trey

    @getreal: where does it say that DL men are responsible for the outbreak in HIV?

  • jason

    Not all black men are homophobic. However, there is a stronger culture of homophobia within the black community, due in part to the macho hang-ups which dominate the black community. Just look at black music stars: they’re almost always bragging about their heterosexuality, incorporating woman-conquering lyrics into their songs. It’s almost as if black men feel compelled to remind us of their heterosexuality at all times.

  • jason

    As for the porn industry, I just don’t like it. The porn industry distorts human sexuality, and is ultimately homophobic towards the male-male interaction especially. Consider the fact that 99% of all porn movies – containing both genders – completely ban the male-male interaction but allow the female-female one to co-exist with the male-female one. I refer to this as the “bisexual double standard”. It’s a total distortion of the human sexual experience and is warping society’s perception of human sexuality at the expense of gay and bisexual men.

  • getreal

    @Trey: It doesn’t say that in that article no I was referring to all the articles and news reports of a few weeks ago when the HIV rates for DC were announced.

  • Trey

    @jason: stronger than what community?

    I can’t wait for the day when everyone can see that the african-american community contains a variety of classes, perspectives, and subcultures.

  • jason

    Trey,

    I think there’s a greater degree of homophobic machismo in the black community than the white community for instance. However, I agee with the notion that we shouldn’t demonize any particular racial group. Homophobic machismo exists everywhere, in every color.

  • Chitown Kev

    @jason:

    I agree with Trey to this extent, you have to account for class, income, education, and other factors. I live in a suburb just north of Chicago that has a small middle-class and upper middle classblack community. I have observed that the black teenagers here are very comfortable with their own sexuality and others. Very few signs of homophobia (and I listen for it.) Now if I were to take a train ride to the Southside or the West Side, different story.

  • getreal

    the macho hang-ups which dominate the black community”

    It’s almost as if black men feel compelled to remind us of their heterosexuality at all times.”

    I agree and as a community we are for some reason afraid to discuss these issues.

  • An Other Greek

    It saddens me that even in virtual discussions, and with the protection of anonymity,

    people STILL refuse to have frank discussions… Denial is a malady with severe consequences.

    Finding exceptions and/or commonalities to derail the discussion of REAL issues serves noone except those invested in their own delusion.

    Meanwhile brothers and sisters die.

    Homophobia exists in all cultures. The Black community is dealing with a particularly virulent manifestation. This translates to all kinds of social and physical illnesses, and let’s at least here, be honest and craft progress.

    ————————————————————

  • Alec

    @jason: Really? 99%? My understanding was that the market share of gay porn was actually disproportionately large when compared to heterosexual porn. Moreover, I don’t know that it is a “distortion” of human sexuality but rather a reflection of the sexual tastes of most men who identify as heterosexual; they aren’t interested in the bisexual explorations of women because it appeals to women, but rather to them. Where the male-male interactions appeal to men in a bisexual setting, and there is pornography that does just that, the female-female interactions are downplayed or ignored because the primary market is the male interested in male bisexuality.

    They’re all just squeezing in for a market share that reflects preexisting demand, buddy. No “distortions” involved.

  • Trey

    @jason: that’s where you lose me. for some reason, the “machismo” of country western, the NHL, and hard rock has no bearing on the perception of the white community as being more homophobic.

  • Alec

    @Trey: I think that the perception is also based on public opinion polling, which shows a greater degree of hostility to homosexuality than in whites. But really, race doesn’t predict as well as education level and religion. I suspect the latter plays a large role and that once that is taken into account the racial significance is downplayed.

    One thing to consider are the distinctions that are sometimes drawn on the role of the partner. That’s an important cultural distinction in some areas (North Africa and the Middle East come to mind, as well as Central and South America) in practice, if not theory.

  • getreal

    @Trey: Absolutely we are diverse and varied as a people. We are discussing a very specific segment of our community. Not gay black men in general or even closeted black men neither of those populations have a negative affect on the black community. This was a discussion Of Down Low black men who are doing damage and are a result of a certain level of homophobia among certain segments of the black community.

  • An Other Greek

    Poverty ->Inferior/Inadequate education ->Ignorance ->Fear ->Tribalism ->Homophobia ->Disease(social and pathological)

    this is simplistic true but it is an effort to show that while homophobia is a universal problem, there are symptoms and circumstances (class, race, ethnicity, location…) that have more specified consequences.

    ?
    ————————————————————-

  • Trey

    @An Other Greek: how exactly aren’t we having a frank discussion?

    i’m arguing that laying the HIV explosion at the feet of perceived black homophobia risks ignoring its other causes.

  • getreal

    @Chitown Kev: I agree that homophobia in our community is largely a socioeconomic issue. I went to a high school with a pflag chapter in an affluent suburb and heard little to no homophobia till college when I met people who had been reared in the inner cities for the first time and was shocked to hear a lot of hatred toward not just toward gay people but toward white people as well.

  • Chitown Kev

    @getreal:

    exactly.

    I was from a working class family, varying degrees of homophobia. then I went to a magnet school that was 65/35 AA. Most of the AA were middle class and upper middle class. They were pretty accepting of homosexuality and there were some real queens there. I always thank my lucky stars that I didn’t go to the school in my neighborhood which was of a somewhat lower socioeconomic class.

  • An Other Greek

    @Trey: @Trey:

    my contention is that there are posters who are derailing the discussion by diluting the issue with what seem ultimately like distractions. Reactionary relativisms offered with the stated hope to keep things real?!?!

    These offered truisms are inarguable, but really for what purpose? Miring in faux correctness. Straw-men arguments.

    Why I wonder do folks like to talk about “all the other causes” in threads that struggle to focus on the Black dilemma?

    I can offer metaphors and analogies, but really do we need them? Let us not waste our energies.

    ————————————————-

  • Chitown Kev

    @An Other Greek:

    No we are discussing real issues.

    Personally, I haven’t been all that exposed to ghetto black, Latino, and redneck communities and I havn’t been a church member in over 20 years (though many, many queens that I know do go to church). The stuff isn’t foriegn to me but I can’t say that I understand it nor am I all that equipped to work in communities like this.

  • Chitown Kev

    @An Other Greek:

    But spell it out. Look at my above post. I’m aware of it, vaguely, but it doesn’t mean anything to me in my daily life, or at least it hasn;’t for a long time. Say what you have to say and stop being evasive.

  • Trey

    @An Other Greek: isn’t that what you’re doing right now?

    i thought this thread was focusing on the myopic view that Lucas has of the black community.

  • benjamin

    Just in case you wondered if Lucas was being sincere here, Washington hasn’t been a Titan exclusive for months and has worked for many other studios since.

  • getreal

    @An Other Greek: I don’t think any of these posts are derailing I think everyone here is bringing a different perspective and different issues to the table. I think it is great that a post about a porn producer has given way to such an interesting discussion.

  • Jason

    Michael Lucas should stick to things he knows….like makeup and plastic surgery. If I wanted critical insight into gay race relations I would probably look to the likes of Keith Boykin, Andrew Sullivan, et. al.

  • Chitown Kev

    @Jason:

    Andrew Sullivan? The barebacking HIV+ bear who sends out ads saying “brothers are welcome?” well…I guess he would know quite a bit about gay race relations…

    Mind you, I do like reading him from time to time but still, she is one shady queen.

  • An Other Greek

    I was additionally referencing previous threads where similar relativistic disclaimers replaced the dialogue that might ensue had agreement been reached on the topic of homophobia in the Black community in particular. I saw a similar pattern. (global warming?) Respect.
    —————————————————————–

  • Chitown Kev

    @An Other Greek:

    Say what you have to say. What do you think?

  • Chitown Kev

    @An Other Greek:
    and why is it important to you?

  • getreal

    @AHEM: SHAME ON YOU!

  • Chitown Kev

    @getreal:

    eh, I saw that getreal and…I don’t know, there nwas nothing cryptic about it and there’s nothing I can do to possibly change his or her mind, so I just left it alone.

    you are here awfully late, then again so am I

    And if Greek really is burning to saying something that is over the top racist, I wish he would say it, or get point out there. He seems to have possession of the deep truth that we all are missing out on. I hate to feel left out.

  • getreal

    @Chitown Kev: I agree no disrespect but I can’t quite figure out what he is getting at. Please An Other Greek explain.

  • CHIP

    @getreal:

    ROFL, you are so pathetic that’s all I got to say…

  • getreal

    @CHIP: I don’t know what ROLF means but judging by your post you are a small minded and angry person. I guess something I posted on down low men struck a nerve. If you were happier yours posts wouldn’t be so uniformly negative. Be well.

  • Gurlene

    Out of fairness why not give a black porn producer such as Ty Lattimore a chance at a rebuttal.

    Mr. Lucas is getting a bit overexposed here.

  • Mister C

    This shit is so COOKER, REWARMED, and just plain ROTTEN at this point.

    Michael Lucas is only trying to combat his own racism by overexposing Diesel Washington’s statement not defending what he said. But I think we all have heard WORSE!

    This is something that has been going on forever. Just like Prop 8 everyone jumped at The African American Community without and never looking at their own communties with their woes of HOMOPHOBIA.

    Like My Mom always said before I can go and clean up Barbra-Jean’s house. I need to clean my own first and I think WE ALL need to live by that standard. Then work together to find common ground to fight HOMOPHOBIA and racism on 1 UNITED front!

    Or we will continue to get these race tinged posts from Queerty and everybody will just let it all hang out!

  • Chitown Kev

    @Mister C:

    LOL. I’ve never been one who’s against letting it all hang out, quite frankly, It’s better to know when someone is racist or sexist (and I have had more than a few moments on this note) or classist (count me here too) or homophobic than not know.

    @James:

    Yeah, here is a link from Rod 2.0. It’s not exactly true that no black LGBTs speak out, it’s that we often are not heard by either side. My comment about the queens in the church that cosign this shit stands.

    http://rodonline.typepad.com/rodonline/2007/10/barack-obama-ca.html

  • jason

    Sorry, Alec, but I think you are completely wrong about porn. Porn distorts human sexuality, pure and simple. In porn movies which contain both genders, male-male is essentially banned whereas female-female is allowed. This is pure distortion. It does not reflect “sexual tastes” as you so benignly put it. Rather, it reflects the selective homophobia of the porn moguls.

    Consider also the fact that female homosexual activity is marketed under the “straight” banner, and you’ve got yet another example of outrageous distortion by this sleazy industry. And don’t tell me that girl-girl is called “straight” because it is designed to appeal to straight guys. You can’t use a fetish to define an orientation.

  • Anthony in Nashville

    @getreal:

    I generally agree with your comments but not here.
    You said : “Down low black men dupe women into fraudulent relationships, create then destroy families, lie and often spread HIV as they are not as careful as gay men in their sexual practices. The statistics speak for themselves.”

    Where are these stats you mentioned? DL men pride themselves on not being noticed, so I doubt anyone can confidently produce any figures on them. There isn’t even a clear definition of “down low,” since some call them closet cases, others say they’re bisexual.

    And as far as black women being “duped,” I have seen more cases when the man damn near set off the fire alarm from all the flames he was giving off but the woman chose to ignore these signs just so she could say she had a man.

    Black women who blame gay black men and/or the down low for their problems are using us as a scapegoat. They don’t want to look at how their choices/attitude/behavior may be contributing to their dysfunctional relationship, or lack of dating. Yes, there are some men living double lives, but I don’t think that is as big a problem as the women who involve themselves with self-described “thugs” and “playas” or put up with domestic violence (hello Rihanna!).

    Also, if I can take your man from you, he was never yours, else he wouldn’t have been looking elsewhere.

  • Dabq

    Reading the responses to this thread shows why this country and more than a few in the glbt community, still has a whole lot of work to do on race, so many uniformed posts.

  • An Other Greek

    Ok

    While the desire for a male to spread his seed is probably a safe concept/behavior to consider universal, there are variances AND degrees in this behavior.

    Here is where it becomes contentious: Many African cultures, and certainly many African diaspora cultures maintain a mythology AND celebration of this desire to “spread the seed” in levels unique from others. This is evident in practice as well as culture.
    (Dangerous territory, flirts with notions of racism. Makes many uncomfortable.)

    This cultural celebration of male reproductive domination is often catastrophically wedded to both uniquely virulent homophobia (which I content is partially cultural but mostly economic) and uniquely virulent macho dismissals of proper sexual behavior. Connect the dots. The rest we know…

    So, in considering DL behavior, AIDS, social trauma and homophobia, when we can move past the identity politicing and reactionary relativisms, that is when we can address solutions to problems that affect the Black community in epidemic proportions. This of course benefits everyone, as we are one. The emancipation of the Black community from homophobia is a complex endeavor. The stakes are huge.
    —-The many fronts of homophobia ought not dilute the specificity and urgency of this concern.—–
    When they/we are ready to honestly understand and begin to deal with this, everyone will be better prepared to enjoy a better developed system of human rights, public health, as well as spiritual advancement. Peace.
    ——————————————————————-

  • getreal

    @Anthony in Nashville: There have actually been numerous news reports and documentaries on this issue. I did not mean to imply that I don’t blame the women who get into these fraudulent as well. We have all sent women with OBVIOUSLY gay men who they date and marry I think of these women as opportunist they have to know on some level and they are taking advantage of their partners confusion and or self-hate. It’s all wrong. As far as taking a man from a woman I personally have never understood the appeal of the DL man either by straight women or gay man. It seems like a shady cowardly kind of life and if “taking” that kind of man from a woman is a badge of honor for some men they should go for it just use a condom theses men are spreading disease and trouble in the black community.As far as the AIDS stats and down low men just google the Washington DC HIV rate and a lot of interesting articles come up many address the effect of the DL culture on the black community.As someone who does a lot of volunteer work with HIV AIDS infected people in LA and speaks to many women week after week who contracted HIV because they were unknowingly having risky sex it has nothing to do with “someone taking your man from you” it is about survival. I think the important thing is that we talk about these things and not continue to sweep them under the carpet. People are dying because of the DL culture and no seems to be taking these men to task.

  • Chitown Kev

    @An Other Greek:

    OK, it flirts with it but doesn’t cross the line.

    You do find a lot of these notions of “spreading the seed” in a lot of pan-Africanist and black nationalist literature. To be crude about it, black men fathering more black babies as a point of racial pride. Out gay black men bear the brunt of criticism because we ain’t out there having babies.

    I question 2 things in your description. First, I think that this type of nationalist thought (not necessarily black, the Nazis preached the same thing) is a fringe thought in American black communities, at best. I don’t see black people having more babies as a result of this mythology. Nor do I see this mythology going through a resurgence in black communities (as it did in the 1920’s with Marcus Garvey, in the late 60’s and in the late 80’s), though there is has always been an undercurrent of it.

    It’s not something that’s black either, I think this may have been one of the reasons for Stalin’s brutal repression against gay men in the Soviet Union, particularly after the Second World War.

    So in general, I find the quasi-Marxist angle that you take (connecting it with economics) interesting but the mythological aspects of childbearing are present in most cultures. And there’s really not too much to be gained by the exploration of this mythology in the short or long term.

  • James

    @Chitown Kev:

    Chitown Kev,

    But that’s the problem. We speak out, but tired gays who get their news from only one source–if at all– decide “black gays sure are the silent type who love the dl.”

    peace

  • Powerbottom Philly

    Lucas is soooooooo tired. Let us all stop giving him any attention and maybe he will go away.

  • An Other Greek

    I am familiar with African and Caribbean cultures that display the debated notions very clearly.

    In African-American communities it goes well beyond race-pride politics. It, imho, traces back to agrarian and possibly animistic roots/notions existing before new-world Africanist reactions. Roots which I, btw, feel are fascinating and of a proud heritage, but nonetheless problematic in our present context, as I described above. I feel no conflict in simultaneously accepting, contextualizing, appreciating, and also admitting the need to change and develop a lot of these culturally “genetic” notions that others prefer to ignore, dilute, or relativize for the fear of the trappings of racism…

    So, I am talking of something bigger. I am talking about the Nigerian, the Jamaican, as well as the American that want to fill you with his babies.

    Again, males of all backgrounds are similarly obsessed in varying degrees, but in the interest of both focus AND acceptance of the unique situation facing African and diaspora communities, let us work together to move towards healthier attitudes and perceptions. This is best possible after a true understanding of who we are.

    ——————————————————————–

  • Trey

    @An Other Greek: i’d also argue that spreading one’s seed is also a judeo-christian ethic. it seems as if you subscribe to this hypersexualized view of black people. looks like that old stereotype and prejudice is finding purchase in the black homophobia debate. it’s dangerous territory because it exaggerates a fringe occurrence.

  • Chitown Kev

    @An Other Greek:

    But where your argument is crossing the line into a racist argument is you seem wedded to the idea that the remnants of agrarian/animistic notions are unique or, rather, more pronounced in African and African diaspora cultures than others. Remember, 1 in 5 people on the planet are of Chinese or Indian origin, animism is as pronounced in modern Chinese religion as it is in African religion.

    Let me add, I studied classical antiquity in college and I know that Roman religion is also chockful of these notions and some of these traditions remain very pronounced in the culture of the Roman Catholic Church (think of the cults of the saints) which brings to mind that Latino and even Italian culture carry these same notions. Of course, with Italian cultures, they (for the most part) have a tendency to turn “white” (though not always).

  • Chitown Kev

    @Trey:

    well, it can be both judeo christian and animistic beliefs (e.g. Santeria). But it’s not limited to African and African diaspora communities, that would be my argument.

  • Alec

    @An Other Greek: How many Italian Americans do you know? Because while my family converted to Protestantism when they left Italy (they hated the Church), they’re the exception to the Catholic rule. There are plenty of Italian men who wanted and want to “fill you” with their babies. Perhaps unsurprisingly, given the influence of the Catholic Church, Italy is also one of the more homophobic of the “Western” European countries (I think it is generous to include them, frankly).

  • Alec

    @Chitown Kev: That also happens (quite a bit) in Buddhism, at least in Southeast Asia. I’d argue that it isn’t very different from the supernaturalism you find in mid America; it takes a different form, but still….

  • Chitown Kev

    @Alec:

    Alec, sorry, I beat you to the punch a little bit on the Italian American example, I was ready to go there…the irony is if there’s any group of “white folks” where discrimination is acceptable, it’s Italians (I am not comparing, I’m just saying…)

    Yeah, as I noted, it happens with Islam too.

  • Chitown Kev

    @Chitown Kev:

    I mean, if there any group of “white folks” where discrimination against them is acceptable in the dominant culture, it’s Italians (and possibly the Irish).

  • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

    @Trey:

    I’ve literally agreed with everything that has come out of your mouth.

    So true.

    People can’t see past inverted preconcieved ideas about certain races, people etc…

    Very exhausting because it is usually based with little intelligent analytical research and thinking.

    I never understand why people find it so hard to not see through Afro Americans?

    I mean, I’m black but not American and if my ancestory was that of slavery, I’d be angry for a while….it’s like this vicous circle, y’know?

    They’ve been bullied for so long that the self hate and anxiety is soo seeped down, it’s intrenched.

    It’s no wonder they have to be the ‘man’. Simply trying to retain some form of ownership and control.

    As someone who has lived in Africa for a bit in various countries…the men their like in Arab states holds hand ALL the time…they literally walk around holding hands.

    My point is simply that, their is no ‘in your face’ heterosexual behaviour there at all.

    Which goes back to the arguments some of the posters on this post have beautifully woven.

    It’s socioeconomical issues in a Western society. It’s politcal. It’s cultural etc…

  • strumpetwindsock

    @Chitown Kev:
    And if you want to talk about animism and tribal religion, you don’t have to look any further than eggs and bunnies at easter, and spruce trees at Christmas (yuletide/solstice).

    And on the seed-spraying question, go back in history and every culture had the drive to outbreed everyone else, IMO.
    My grandmother was one of 13 kids and they were white protestants. I think the dropping birth rate in north america and europe is simply a result of our urban culture (plus birth control) and nothing else. There may be some cultural influence, but the notion that one race has a stronger drive to breed than any other is just nonsense.

    @AHEM:
    Since I’m here anyway…. that post was ugly, inaccurate, and stupid.

  • John in CA

    I think the Italians and Irish are singled out because they’re more connected to their cultural roots than most “white” people. Italian-Americans can often pinpoint their origins – sometimes right down to the village – with uninhibited pride and reverence. In contrast, I’ve seen plenty of clueless Americans with obviously German last names (like Beckman and Schultz) say they have no idea where their ancestors came from. Sometimes they give that ever enlightening response of “somewhere in Europe?”

    I’ve always viewed that attitude towards history as kind of sad. It might be cliche to say this, but I do think people who have no historical perspective are missing out on something. For these Americans, assimilation has come at a price.

  • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

    @An Other Greek:

    So don’t say African.

    African Americans came from a slave ship that ALSO went to the Carribeans.

    Those slaves came from ONLY Benin, Nigeria and other neighbouring countries in that remit.

    So when you mention Nigerian, Jamaican and Afro-Americans in the same breadth, lol, you are mentioning people who are LINKED racially.

    So maybe you should change your argument to certain WEST African men??

    You DON’T know Africa.

    People from neigbouring Mali-were Timbuktu one of the most ancient cities in the world and with books and architecture that existed before the Greek times- are very gentle people. Quite.

    You go to East Africa and they look fo different. These are people who grew around Safaris…mountains….

    In South Africa, they have such a unique dialect that they may as well be from Mars. With their chinese-y eys and lighters skins from pygamies….

    And then there is central Africa-heart of darkness territory, still home to a few of the ONLY pygamy tribes in the new world…

    North Africa, you have the Beher people who are a mixture of black and Arab who are simply desert people and procreation isn’t that BIG on their agenda…

    I could go on…

    But finally, as others mentioned here SO many ‘white’ cultures have this procreating macho crap…

    South America, Italians, Spanish…the greeks-jeez!….

    And what about all those Apalachian families??

    I’m jus saying. Then only reason white people took control on this crazy male obsession was due to economical reasons and governmental initiatives and control.

    It wasn’t a cultural thing that was part of them. It was done to control the population and thus this way of thinking spreads..

    You’ll find older people in the UK very thrift even if they are wealthy..

    Why?

    Because they grew up during the war.

    Now the Brits are known for being ‘tight’.

  • Alec

    @Chitown Kev: Hahaha, I understood what you meant. But I don’t know that that’s really the case; i.e., I don’t think European Americans today would discriminate against Italian Americans, unless they were recent immigrants. My older relatives remember it, of course, and “wop” wasn’t an acceptabe dinner table word. The situation might be a bit different in the Northeast, where they’re still associated with the black market (I grew up in the Midwest).

    Also depends on where you’re from and how assimilated you are or look. Some of my family is still a bit darker skinned, as was my grandmother, but my dad and I are both lily white (and our surname is about as Anglo as you can get). My grandmother spoke Italian, but she and my great aunts and uncles were the last. Italians can assimilate pretty easily and they did.

    Re: Animism. I spent four months in Thailand as part of a study abroad internship program when I was in undergrad. The variant of Buddhism they practice (primarily) is Theravada, which is one of the more restrictive and nonsupernatural of the bunch. And in practice, superstition abounds. Along with animistic practices, which they haven’t shed by any stretch of the imagination. Mischa Berlinski’s novel “Field Work” is a pretty interesting fictional exploration of animism in northern Thailand.

    Anyway, I never really thought of animism as a major component of the African American demographic or significantly correlated with any emphasis on male fertility and virility, because those practices have been promoted in various ways in Islam and Christianity. The association with African Americans just seems odd, as an empirical matter, unless it is a result of associating black Americans with “primitive” cultues. In which case, both racist and somewhat arrogant with respect to religious differences. Or maybe it is being confused with Louisiana and Haitian voodoo, which is entirely different.

  • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

    @strumpetwindsock:

    Just said the same thing! Except more long winded! I guess that’s what happens after you mentor 8 year olds!

    ;)

  • Alec

    @John in CA: Very true. I know the name of the town my Italian family came from, and I also know where virtually everyone ended up after they left (both in the US and Brazil). But I also suspect that relates to the relatively late period in which they came (just before WWI, with the bulk of Italian immigrants). By contrast, the German side of the family…well, I was able to determine a lot by researching the last name and with assistance from a family collection of documents. As for the English side, that’s lost to history.

  • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

    @John in CA:

    Are they German or German Jews?

    Beckman is Jewish.

    Beckmann is German.

    Schulz is Jewish.

    It’s not that black and white. I’m sure you know this.

    There is a reason for people to not go further into their heritage because of the pain it will bring up.

    I don’t kid when I say this. I had a woman working for me as an intern and we were talking about race etc and I thought she looked Italian or maybe Spanish or Jewish and she was like I’m half Arab BUT I only found out a few years ago!

    And I was like huh? But your look…

    And she said that she tried but her mother was soo offish to reveal ANY info that things were left as they were.

    Makes you think?

    But to be honest this is typical England. This mad little island that is so culturally mixed it’s fascinating.

    Lol, read this funny article with this white dude who is a write for one of our big lefty papers and he has this curly dark brown hair and he was talking about finding out he was an 1/8th black!

    He just though he gran was pretty tanned and italian.Whenever he asked the family they said nothing..

  • Chitown Kev

    @Alec:

    Notice I’m not denying that the “spread the seed” thinking isn’t there in Afro-cultures. It’s there in much of the black nationalist literature in the 80’s and there has been some academic studies of it in connection with the DL syndrome in African American communities. What makes Greek’s particular argument racist is that he doen’t consider other cultures where the same belief is prevalent.

    Socis does all of this make this report (which came from the BBC) racist. Remember, China is a country deep into animistic beliefs.

    http://www.queerty.com/hivaids-is-now-chinas-leading-killer-20090218/

  • Chitown Kev

    @Alec:

    As far as that “wop” word is concerned, I actually saw that slur very recently and it was on a gay blog, by the way.

    And while I do know that there can be ethnic tensions between blacks and Italians (Saturday Night Fever played this up), it has never failed to amaze me how similar the 2 cultures are, though that is disappearing somewhat now that Italians are increasingly becoming “white folks.”

  • Alec

    @Chitown Kev: Well that’s nationalism for you. I still don’t understand the relationship to DL “culture” or, as you call it, syndrome. It seems roughly equivalent to what you find in closeted men everywhere, to me. Now, I have read some papers that seem to be apologetics, for lack of a better word, for DL. Some sort of notion that “gay” as an identity is either inappropriate for black men or does not exist. But when you consider the history of gay men as a whole, it comes across as very forced and well, ridiculous.

    Re: China. I don’t think that is related to animisim, or if it is, only in a superficial way. Maybe I need to go back and reread the entire thread, but one of the reports I read while at UNAIDS was a rather coldly utilitarian one that suggested that promoting a gay identity in East, Southeast and Central Asia would curb the spread of HIV to heterosexual women by isolating homosexual men into homosexual relationships. But the connection to animism isn’t clear to me.

  • Chitown Kev

    @John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s):

    Hmmm…Now one thing I do know about my family on my mother’s side is that we actually come from England. It seems to have been a rather scandalous case of aristocratic boy falls in love with a black maid, he gets disowned and he comes to America after the Civil War.

    There are relatives in my family that keep track with all this stuff and theorize that background as a reason why many in my family have been considered to be kinda…shall we say, uppity.

  • strumpetwindsock

    @John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s):
    Actually a friend of mine got a hell of a shock a few years back when she discovered her mother’s family was half white/half black.

    Someone from down in the states had made contact after a family member died. It turns out that all the brothers had gone stateside and identified as “black” and the sisters had stayed in Toronto and lived as “white” and there was no contact. Until this death my friend was not even aware of her racial heritage or her U.S. relatives.

    I’m not even going to try to analyze it because it doesn’t seem to make sense to me either.

    I do have Indian and Metis friends who either decided to pass for white or who got discrimination from both sides because they could pass.

    And a British history example. When Kim Campbell was running for re-election as prime minister here there were actually “Remember Glencoe” signs popping up in the Ottawa valley.

  • Chitown Kev

    @Alec:

    No, it’s the idea that animism is very, very, very pronounced in Chinese folk religion as much (if not more) than in Afro-religions as a counter example to what Greek was saying. It wasn’t connected to that article at all, sorry for the confusion.

    And yes, it is very superficial, as is such an excuse in the African American context. I am not aware of any stats that say that there is an increased birthrate among African Americans (it’s Latino populations that are growing the fastest here) Granted, the AA birthrate might be higher than whites (the dominant cultures), I think if that is looked at over time, not as many AA are having babies.

  • strumpetwindsock

    @Chitown Kev:

    And remember that scene from “True Romance” where Dennis Hopper’s character goads Christopher Walken into killing him.

  • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

    @Chitown Kev:

    Of course.

    Stuff like this happened the WHOLE time.

    The English are terrible for it, it’s such a joke!

    This is too vague and needs better research into it because England is weird…

    But London is probably (census) the most multi-cultural city (western) around..and when I say this, I mean bi-racial. It’s not a big thing at all.

    I live in a horrid rich, right wing town (not by choice leaving at home while I finish/fund my MBA) and even here you see mixed black and white kids with these really stiff, upper lip english fathers, like tweed jackets and country landrovers..

    It’s odd to be frank BUT they love their kid and it’s a genuine relationship.

    Still fascinating though..

  • Alec

    @Chitown Kev: OK, thanks, I was a bit confused. I would argue that much of Asia is far more animistic than African Americans, although I can’t speak to Africa per se. My knowledge bank is pretty limited there. What I do know is that the religions that dominate East and Southeast Asia are far more tolerant of animism than Christianity and Islam, which tend to dominate Africa. What that means in practice is unclear of course.

  • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

    @strumpetwindsock:

    “I’m not even going to try to analyze it because it doesn’t seem to make sense to me either.”

    Ahh dude. Anthropology is soo fascinating! Heritage, social cultural economies!

    I have to say I’m a closet junkie for this!

    My mothers das was half German but because it was possiblty created in a not too nice way, no one mentions why my mother is light skinned African.

    African’s are funny like that but you can understand….

    It’s such a pity.

    I loathe it when Oprah goes all ‘Africa’ but goes to South Africa when her ancestry is the West of Africa. There is nothing South African about her.

  • Chitown Kev

    @Alec:

    Crazy thing is, I can’t speak much of Africa either, but I knew where there were other examples of animism.

    I actually ran acroos the entire animistic Islam while I was studying sex/gender and sexuality in Indonesia for an anthropology class. And that’s the largest Islamic culture in the world but only until recently has the militant Islam been a real force in Indonesia.

    So Greek, thanks for being frank about your theories, consider yourself debunked.

  • strumpetwindsock

    @John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s):

    I can think of a couple of times when I have run into Indian politics and just had to step back and realize I was a fool white guy who shouldn’t even start trying to figure out a feud that is hundreds of years old.

    Then again when I visited my family’s old home in south Wales I was told about a feud between them and the people in the next valley that came from not backing each other up in strikes that happened over 100 years ago.

    And on the issue of changing demographics, Britain is over 1/4 non-white (whatever that means) now, isn’t it? I remember reading a survey to that effect a few years ago. Similarly, our province will be over 50% native in about 30 years.

    Also, apparently English is now a lingua franca, like latin became. It is used more by non-native speakers to communicate with each other than it is used by native English speakers.

  • hardmannyc

    “My mothers das was half German ”

    Boy, does that explain a lot!!

  • strumpetwindsock

    @John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s):
    And I have spent a bit of time in Germany.
    Even before the East Germans got thrown into the mix the north and the south were like two completely different countries with a mishmash of regional cultures in between (and Berlin, of course).

  • strumpetwindsock

    @hardmannyc:

    Actually Kev, that just reminded me of another white culture some people think it’s still okay to say racist things about.

  • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

    @strumpetwindsock:

    Yeah, England is odd like that.

    1/4?

    I know officially the French are the most mixed BUT how many people truly answer these marketing research questionnaires?

    For the me the evident bottom line is that peoplre are so irrational and illogical that they don’t realise that we’re all mixed? Or something?

    Damn, I guess I crave Utopia but honest dialogue would stop a helluva lot of dehumanising happening..

  • Chitown Kev

    @strumpetwindsock:

    Huh? Let me see, I know about the Italians and the Irish

    Wow, this thread took an interesting turn.

  • Bill Perdue

    In reality it’s likely that one of the reasons why “there aren’t enough black men in gay porn” is because racist scum like Lucas are in the business.

    If this discussion demonstrates anything it’s that we’re fascinated by an American culture that’s a cesspool of bigotries. Sociopathic bigoted behaviors are just the hand-me-down social norms of the ruling rich. Islamophobia, racism, anti-gay bigotry, immigrant bashing, misogyny and etc. are all bigotries which have one origin and one use, and that’s to make it easier for the ruling rich to maintain their rule by dividing and conquering.

    Lucas and everyone else who falls for that tactic and tries to divide us are on the wrong side of the trenches.

  • Mister C

    Does anybody have a GOD DAMN TYLENOL, or ADVIL?

  • strumpetwindsock

    @Mister C:
    Not one that I can grind up and stuff into my modem. Sorry.

    And Kev. You’re too polite. I thought we just hijacked it.

  • Alec

    @Bill Perdue: It could also be consumer demand. The origins may also be racist, but if there was an overwhelming demand for black men in porn, I would think there would be more outlets for it, even over the objections of Lucas and Co.

    If anything, I’ve noticed that pornography usually fetishizes black men (large members, masculine tops, etc.). Which leads me to believe it reflects consumer demand more than anything else. As I said above, the origins might be racist, but the solution is more on the demand side than on the supply side.

    Also, what are the racial demographics of gay porn consumers? I’m guessing overwhelmingly white.

  • Chitown Kev

    @Alec:

    But, I mean, is there a way to do porn in American society that isn’t racist?

    I mean, I have an intense dislike for thug porn (which is a very popular genre) but I love what Lucas does with the black (and Latino) guys in his films.

  • Bill Perdue

    @Alec: You could be right.

    I wasn’t raising the question of ‘solutions’ for the porn business. It’s one of those businesses that may be more influenced by its owners, many of whom are ‘connected’, than by consumers. Much of consumerism after all is a created and addictive.

    What is clear is that porn, like most aspects of American life is an expression of racism and other forms of bigotry.

    People who don’t like Lucas’ generally racist attitudes could boycott his products.

  • hardmannyc

    yay, Bill Berdue weighs in with his Marxism 101! My day is complete. Yes, of course, we like porn because we are brainwashed consumer idiots. NOW I get it.

  • Alec

    @Chitown Kev: Maybe not. But there’s a difference between the more overt and hostile forms of racism and something softer like sexual fetishism, at least where the racists in question desire the racial minorities.

    I don’t watch Lucas’ pornography, so I don’t have any idea what he does with it. My only real concerns with pornography are that 1) It displays consenting adults and 2) promotes safer sex practices. And even I need to recognize the reality of the market with condition #2.

    Where there are deficiencies, I think the only realistic place to correct that is in the audience.

    So it will probably be racist, but soft racism is a tolerable phenomenon that should be corrected through education and integration. I’m not very worried about people who fetishize racial minorities; I’m worried about people who refuse to hire them.

    @Bill Perdue: I don’t watch Lucas’ products. I admire him for his work on safer sex and his anti-drug message. But I find his politics largely indefinsible. Or at least immature.

    As far as preference formation, I assume that porn usually reflects consumer preferences rather than those of suppliers. But given how subjective sexual preferences are (and I don’t mean orientation here), I admit that suppliers and producers may play a larger role in porn.

  • An Other Greek

    A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position. This is a tactic often seen in these threads to veer away from central issues.

    A perfect example is Trey’s response where he countered my argument by bringing up Judeo-Christian counters and hypersexualized prejudice apologies,

    when I clearly prefaced my argument with many disclaimers about universalities.

    Cultural relativism is a fallacy. There ARE differences in behavior and philosophy. Clearly these are not genetic, and can be often understood through cultural anthropology, history, economics. But please don’t tell me that behavior is similar through different cultures. Please don’t tell me there is no difference, and that difference does not create unique circumstances. Please.

    Also, let’s not impose that the suggestion of difference is automatically a hierarchical device. I know that it functions as such for many that profit from prejudice, as well as the internalizing victims. Difference is real, and when understood and contextualized, often free of the racist structure’s demands of hierarchies.

    And John, do you really think that an African-American, a Jamaican, and a Nigerian’s only connection is their race? Are you kidding me? I will go as far as to say that even NON-African-American-Americans (NAAA) actually have cultural links with Africans, particularly West-Africans for the reasons you stated. We do live in an Afro-European society here in the States after all… Culture thrives in communities at many levels and through different tactics, some intimate and personal, some collective, some produced.

    Lastly, let’s not trip. I’m throwing out some theories, unproven, and y’all are throwing out some arguments. That’s cool, constructive, and respectful. But the problems remain.

    And at the risk of further annoying some of you, please allow me to repeat:
    —-The many fronts of homophobia ought not dilute the specificity and urgency of this concern.—–
    Peace.

    PS -thank you all for the civility, I am so pleased we haven’t broken down to the screaming fits of some previous threads…
    ————————————————————

  • Chitown Kev

    @An Other Greek:

    well, no one is arguing cultural relativism, but we did provide plenty of example in numerous other cultures of the animistic beliefs that you cited. So it is now incumbent upon you (since you brought it up) to make the cultural distictions between, say, African diaspora and Chinese cultures or African Americans and Italian Americans (and I gave you 1).

  • Chitown Kev

    @An Other Greek:

    but then what do you propose? Sterization? Been there and done that with the Tuskegee experiments…Unlike China, Indonesia, and India (where the governments have been able to implement birth control programs) African Americans are pretty low on the totem pole as far as political power in this country is concerned. It would be impossible to do the work or to apply any solutions that you suggest without racism entering into it. American history and the racist nature of argument is proving that

  • strumpetwindsock

    Plus it’s important to make the disctinction between race and culture, which are totally different things (although they usually have overlaps).

    A statment that all black people, all oriental people, all semites or all white people behave in a certain way would be racist. It would also be inaccurate for several reasons – behaviour isn’t genetic, behaviour is an individual trait, and racial definitions have very blurry lines.

    Culture on the other hand does influence behaviour. As long as it is understood that you can’t make a value judgement about one person based on his or her culture, you can make some general statements about how people behave and think in a certain culture.

    You can say it in a nasty, unfair and discriminatory way, but you can also say it it in a way that helps someone understand another culture in a positive way.

    I guess I’m saying that using cultural generalizations is a two-edged sword.

  • Chitown Kev

    @strumpetwindsock:

    Yeah, I mean, what is a “white person,” really?

  • Bill Perdue

    @hardmannyc: “we like porn because we are brainwashed consumer idiots. NOW I get it.”

    Not everybody’s an idiot… But thanks for being honest with us. Did you have that little epiphany looking in a mirror in Hells Kitchen.

  • Chitown Kev

    Time to hi-jack the thread again..

    Speaking of little ethnic skirmishes with white people, anybody here remembers when Geraldine Ferraro ran for VP (I know, I am dating myself)? I mean, they pulled out the Mafia card and every other type of Italian stereotype quick (I mean, wasn’t it kinda racist?). I wonder would they do the same thing with Rudy Giuliani (though I don’t think he will ever be the presidential nominee)?

  • strumpetwindsock

    @Chitown Kev:
    Exactly. Some are more “white” than others, and when they have run out of scapegoats the last whites standing are the anglo protestants.

    In my part of the world when eastern europeans (mostly Ukrainians and Poles) started immigrating here around 1910 there were the same sort of racial slurs that people are now using against Indians – higher crime rate, drunkenness, laziness.

    Now they are probably the most prominent culture here after the British. The racist fearmongering was nonsense then and it’s nonsense now.

  • Chitown Kev

    @strumpetwindsock:

    Canada, right?,

    But racist fearmongering of Eastern Europeans is nothing new. Bram Stoker’s Dracula is one of the best examples of racist fearmongering and that was 20 years before they immigrated to Canada.

    Interesting those slurs they use against Indians (which you don’t find in the States), they are the same slurs used against AAs and Mexican immigrants.

  • strumpetwindsock

    Yup.

    And I forgot to mention they (Ukrainians) were considered traitors too (since they were part of the Austro Hungarian Empire), and locked in camps during the 1st world war. Shades of the modern muslim threat.

    The funny thing is that anyone nowadays who isn’t a historian isn’t even aware that those sterotypes ever existed. It has been completely forgotten. Ukrainians are literally part of the conservative bedrock of our culture here.

    It is a perfect example of how those scare tactics are just bullshit. Meanwhile some people are freaking at the rising native population here (soon to be 50%). Of course that is a slightly more complex story, since we stole their land and effectively tried to kill them off.

  • Chitown Kev

    @strumpetwindsock:

    And to tie this into the topic…

    Notice that Diesel Washington does not say that Michael Lucas is white at all, he says that he is a “Russian Jew.”

    Now I know that racism against “Russians” goes at least as far back as the ancient Greeks, when they were considered to be savages (read Herodotus, Book 5 of the Histories, I think) There has always been a relationship between Europe and Russia that is ambivalent at best and downright hostile at worst (think Napoleon and Hitler), Russia has never been fully accepted as a “European country” or an “Asian country” for that matter.

    I remember a blog entry about the Russian protestors at the Prop 8 hearings earlier this month and if there had been an ethnic slur, it would have been flying. I remember when Lucas posted on Rod 2.0 a couple of wekks ago and, again, if there were a Russian ethnic slur that I could think of, it would have been said.

    Simply put, it’s funny that neither Diesel nor Lucas are considered as being “white.” But in an American context, we see Lucas’ color and assume that it’s merely another white man. And, IMO, that’s an incorrect reading.Lucas, to his credit, wears his Russian-ness on his sleeve.

  • strumpetwindsock

    @Chitown Kev:
    It is interesting that Lucas had no problem making a fairly racist statement about African Americans, and yet when Washington simply mentioned his own heritage as a way of telling him to mind his own business he interpreted it as an anti-semitic slur, and used it to say something else racist against AAs.

    How can he say it’s okay to talk about “blacks” and “whites” but a completely neutral mention of his own heritage is off limits?

  • hardmannyc

    ” Did you have that little epiphany looking in a mirror in Hells Kitchen.”

    No, I got it while looking into my brain. It was “sarcasm.” Look it up. I know you can’t fathom this through the fog of your jargon, but believe me, in the socialist paradise you’re working toward, men will still be wanking it to pictures of hot guys/girls.

  • sparkle obama

    @GayIsTheWay:

    w*yne fom WOW, is that you?
    are you typing from fire island or san jose this time?

  • Chitown Kev

    @strumpetwindsock:

    Well…Diesel did say it was a “thing” I don’t think it was all that innocent. He reminded Lucas that whatever he is, he ain’t white…at least not yet. Diesel put him in his place (in a fairly offensive way) and Lucas got pissed. But, I mean, just call Diesel the n-word or something (just to keep it personal), no need to drag his very, very limited knowledge of black-Jewish relations that he learned from a paragraph in Wikipedia into the situation.

    I mean, being a gay Russian Jew just cannot be a picnic.

  • sparkle obama

    @Chitown Kev:

    this poster focuses on real and perceived Black hostility to gays
    because he cannot look in the mirror and face himself.
    he is literally afraid of obama.
    he voted for mccain out of sheer spite.
    guys he & lucas like this give normal “white” folks a bad name.

  • sparkle obama

    @strumpetwindsock:

    phonies like lucas & w*yne from WOW will accuse you of “playing the victim” with one breath & call you a “reverse-racist” with the next.
    conservative, crypto-r*cist gays who want to murder each other with GHB
    chap my yellow ass & so does lucas with his fake sh*t.
    too hostile for his own good.
    too much gay “pride” can make you sick…

  • Chitown Kev

    @sparkle obama:

    careful sparkle. As someone who has observed and supported Barack Obama for over 10 years and has voted for him 4 times (he’s MY Senator) I am not too pleased with his kowtowing to certain elements of the black electorate that shunned him for so many years. I did vote for him and I generally like what he’s done thus far but I am not quite on the bandwagon yet.

  • sparkle obama

    @Chitown Kev:

    i hear you kev & i learn from your posts.
    i know that neither obama or any politician is perfect!
    if i support obama like some gays supported hillary, which is to say, pretty strongly,
    i may see obama’s “pandering” as “pragmatism”.
    gays like w*yne who were ready to shoot up a church w/an AK47 when obama chose warren to officiate are the same trash who forced obama to leave his own gay-positive trinity church in the first place.
    haters and fearmongers are part of the problem, not part of the solution.
    gays can do better!
    hold obama to his responibilities toward Our communities in POSITIVE ways!
    gays need to lead by example and help obama do the right thing.

  • sparkle obama

    @BobP:
    because tv is the same as real life and because Black people are portrayed so glowingly in Black sitcoms …and *in such large numbers* elsewhere.
    kidding!
    don’t be a victim, mary!

  • Chitown Kev

    Well, they got Jeremiah Wright totally wrong, although from what I’ve heard Wright and Obama differ on the same-sex marriage issue (Wright is for same-sex marriage though he doesn’t think it should be the high priority item). There was more going on with Wright and Obama than meets the eye.

    As far as that bitch Donnie McClurkin and Rick Warren, I stand with my gay brothers and sisters 100%.

    But Barack Obama also campaigned against the Illinois adoption of the federal DOMA in his 96 state Senate campaign and successfully sponsored bills for hate crimes legislation and inclusive ENDA in the Illinois General Assembly. As a gay black man from Illinois, Barack Obama did all right by me. You can barely even get Dan Savage to say a bad word about Obama.

  • strumpetwindsock

    @Chitown Kev:
    Interesting.

    I didn’t get that from the comment at all. He told him to mind his own business, and it seemed fair (and not necessarily racist) that he might make reference to the man’s heritage.

    You could very well be seeing something I missed, though. I wasn’t aware of that spin on the word “thing”.

    Something in Lucas’ comment made me wonder something else though (and I feel like I’m going out on a bit of a limb here, so feel free to weigh in if anyone thinks this is off-base):
    I got the feeling he felt his race should not be on the table the same way as Diesel’s should.

    I’m thinking that the more visible a person’s race is (with the exception of whites or those who pass for white) the more that racist people assume their race is a factor in their attitudes and feelings.
    Racist people assume that black, oriental, or native people think and feel a certain way – that their race is a prime motivator for them. They do not make that same assumption about people who are “closer to white”.

    Now I know Lucas is not caucasian, not european, and as a Jew subject to his own brand of discrimination, but is it possible that as someone who blends in a bit better with the dominant white culture he took affront to someone bringing up his race, while not even thinking that he was taking the same license with someone else?

    After all, in his piece he spoke about not having to be white to speak about whites – he didn’t say you don’t have to be Jewish to speak about Jews. Was he referring to himself as white?

  • Chitown Kev

    @sparkle obama:

    and hey, my family in Michigan supported Hillary…how soon black folks forget…

  • sparkle obama

    @Chitown Kev:

    i supported hillary too – right up until the nevada primaries.
    soon after that, she showed her ass and i don’t trust her to this day.

  • Trey

    @An Other Greek: I mentioned the judeo-christian ethic, because I find it interesting that you feel that your hypersexualized view of black people comes from a link with distinctly African cultural values. It’s as if you think blacks exist in a cultural vacuum. You can characterize my problems with your argument however you want, but that doesn’t change the fact of your promoting a stereotype.

  • An Other Greek

    @Chitown Kev:

    the sterilization comment is absolutely mortifying, I have no idea how you could go there in any way from anything I wrote. The horror. I just hope this reflect less on me.

    I hoped to make it implicit that I guard against hierarchical distinctions, still an imperfect endeavor. I referenced animism and agrarian structure as possible reasons why “Many African cultures, and certainly many African diaspora cultures maintain a mythology AND celebration of this desire to “spread the seed” in levels unique from others”. As far as Chinese animism, a topic I am far less familiar with, I have not been impressed that fertility ritual is as integral. Please enlighten.

    A deeper look at any culture shows how interconnected and complex behavior is. Still, through complexity comes uniqueness and difference. Each community and culture varies in how sexuality is promoted and controlled. Let’s get modern about it, I mean, let’s understand it, own it, and direct it. Particularly when consequences revolve around pathology and mental well-being. Colonial/missionary culture has only added to the complexities, and let’s learn from that as well.

    ——————————————————————-

  • Chitown Kev

    @sparkle obama:

    well, as you can tell by my name, I just had to overlook some things…Barack is my (and Savage’s) homie.

  • Chitown Kev

    @An Other Greek:

    that’s the thing, Greek going by your theory, what culture celebrates “spreading the seed” more than China? for whatever reason.

  • Chitown Kev

    @An Other Greek:

    by the way, I am not trashing your argument, I am merely asking you to make cultural distinctions vis-a-vis what makes African diaspora cultures so unique in this regard.

  • strumpetwindsock

    @An Other Greek:

    I still don’t agree with your distinction, and I don’t see how you see it in the real world. When I think of cultures with huge families, Africans cultures are not the first that spring to my mind, and that continent is far from the most densely-populated place on earth.

    As well, there are other cultures which have spread themselves around the world more (not counting of course the fact that our entire species came from Africa). So far as post-ice age culture is concerned, African nations have neither wandered nor conquered in the same was as indian, nordic, celtic, mongol, semitic or greek cultures. And although there is a large African diaspora, much of it did not come about by choice.

  • John in CA

    @strumpetwindsock: Having been to China for extended trips and watched plenty of local media, I can assure you the stereotyping isn’t one sided. There are basically three kinds of white people on Chinese television: opium dealers, imperialists, and mercenaries. On those rare ocassions where there’s a white character on a show that pre-dates the Qing Dynasty (before 1644), white men are invariably portrayed as scruffy, hairy barbarians. And of course, the emperor’s courtiers never fail to point out the fleas and ‘wet dog’ smell. Although no worse than the raw deal Asians have gotten in Hollywood over the years as asexual midgets and prostitutes, these interpretations of Europeans aren’t terribly flattering.

    @John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): The individuals I’m thinking of are Roman Catholics. Although it is possible their families converted from Judaism. I won’t speculate based on their appearance because that’s rarely an indicator of anything. Many German Jews who are indistinguishable from other Germans. And given that they’ve been in Central Europe since the formation of the Holy Roman Empire, I’m guessing there has been more than a little hanky-panky over the last 1,000 years or so. Only Nazis would be foolish enough to believe in something as absurd as “racial purity.” It doesn’t exist.

  • Chitown Kev

    @John in CA:
    Funny, and they are tiny pockets of Afrocentrism that think the melanin in the skin is so strong that it overrides everything else about me. They’re as stupid as the Nazi’s, if you ask me.

    That’s intersting what you note about stereotypes in China. That was the real funny part (but rather imperalist) part of watching Slumdog Millionaire, the unquestioned depiction of white people as being so naive that they would get taken advantage of by the poor, pickanninies from the slums of Mumbai. No critique of the culture of colonialism that, in part, created all that in India.

  • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

    @John in CA:
    Exactly

  • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

    @strumpetwindsock:

    Food for thought huh?

    You’re on to something big there and it’s the major issue I have so much with living in the UK. So many people are mixed from so many diverse cultures who have immigrated and emigrated to the UK since..will since William the Conquerer in 1066 BUT because they look whiter, they don’t ‘get’ it.

    We have this program on one of the main channels called ‘who do you think you are?’ and they get all these famous Brits to find out were they are from.

    And basically they all traced the ancestry to Eastern Europe within Jewish settlements. And it’s like no shit. And they are all like ‘I’m amaaazed’..

    Urgh.

    They also did another show on genetics and it was actually really funny cause this TV racist English lad found out lol, that he had black blood! His face!

    People are funny.

  • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

    @An Other Greek:

    “And John, do you really think that an African-American, a Jamaican, and a Nigerian’s only connection is their race? Are you kidding me? I will go as far as to say that even NON-African-American-Americans (NAAA) actually have cultural links with Africans, particularly West-Africans for the reasons you stated. We do live in an Afro-European society here in the States after all… Culture thrives in communities at many levels and through different tactics, some intimate and personal, some collective, some produced.”

    Dude, no I’m sure race isn’t ALL they have in common but my point is that they a Jamaican can have just as much in common as an Italian or a Jew.

    The passionate arguing, the guilt thing, the nit picking mothers..etc etc..

    Like everyone is stating above, it’s not jus an African thing. It’s more cultural, economical and political.

  • An Other Greek

    Dude, no I’m sure race isn’t ALL they have in common but my point is that they a Jamaican can have just as much in common as an Italian or a Jew.

    Uhm, with all due respect, you are wrong. The continuity in African and diaspora culture seems to need to be debated only in this forum. And now we relativize it Jews and Italians! Uhm, no.

    Just go to a little party in a little village up in the bush in Jamaica and see the little 4 year olds dance for their parents, doing moves that strongly link to fertility dances and in particular to Ghana and the Ashanti, and then tell me you don’t see similarities also in African American culture… Simply look at hip hop! Just one example.

    Your insistance at not seeing the links (in cultural anthropology, food, music, art, social structure, spirituality, expression, even dialect, syntax, and communication) of Africans and their diaspora, and then your comparison to Jews and Italians is not only counter=productive but also possibly offensive to those proud of their heritage. Double edged sword indeed.

    ——————————————————————–

  • An Other Greek

    My “spreading the seed” comment was in the context of homophobia, unsafe sexual practices, masculine domination, DL behavior, and AIDS. How we got to the Chinese and issues of world domination, I am not sure.

    It’s an interesting question, maybe, but not really related to why there is an epidemic of HIV in the Black community (and homophobia), the issue that fuels a lot of my questions on this thread.

    ————————————————————-

  • Chitown Kev

    @An Other Greek:

    But you cant make such anthropological claims in isolation without be racist, Greek. And even if you do comparative studies (like Sir Frazer did) you are going to run into racist baggage.

    Now, I can go here as far as the Chinese are concerned, since AIDS is also increasingly a big problem in China and (knowing the Chinese love for controlling the media) probably underreported. And what society epitomizes masculine domination more than the Chinese?

  • Chitown Kev

    @Chitown Kev:
    Now I have to go out into this snow and muck but I need to correct this rather racist statemnt of mine. I do know that there is a definitive tradition of masculine/patriarchal domination in China. Whether its more or less evident than in other societies, I dont know.

    And hip hop IS a Jamaican import. Jamaicans emigrated to parts of Queens and the Bronx in the late 70s. That’s why the similiarities are there; you would know that if you knew some of the history of hip hop. And it wasn’t even popular in African American communities of a lower socioeconmic status (aw, hell, the ‘hood) until the late 80’s. When hip hop became ghetto, thats when the homophobia came into play.

  • Trey

    @An Other Greek: I honestly don’t understand why you think the majority of blacks subscribe to this spread the seed mode of thought.

  • An Other Greek

    I know that it is provocative and controversial to suggest links between sexual behavior, homophobia, HIV and the distinctions unique (at least in occurrence) to the Black community in the States. Racist? Possibly. I struggle with my racism, and have been aware of the topic for many years. Still, are my comments in this thread racist?

    Perhaps, but more importantly to me than the danger of being perceived as racist, or even inadvertently espousing racist ideas, are distinctions and qualities that are linked to produce the present dilemma. I will take the chance that my good intentions aren’t totally separated from my ongoing self-criticism when it comes to racism. As you know I cannot take credit for connecting any of these dots, I respond to ideas and research of others.

    But it seems to me that there is no purpose in denying that there is a particularly high occurrence of behavior and disease within large numbers in the Black community that results in the topics at hand: DL, Homophobia, AIDS.

    Is this debatable as well? Not to many statisticians, public health workers, sociologists, etc. I attempted to give possible reasons for this, and got into dangerous territory, I knew it is problematic, but I hoped that it would engender debate, which it did.

    I am not sure what more to contribute. There are experts, I am not. But, my hope is that at some point soon there will be the perfect storm/(calm?) of better economics and better acceptance and understanding of cultural identities so that behavior is adjusted to deal with disease, both pathological and emotional…

    —————————————————————–

  • An Other Greek

    @Trey:

    to suggest that there is an epidemic due to behavior does not imply –majority– behavior in any way, that is your straw-man distinction, yet again.

    What it does imply is a uniquely sizable occurrence, one of note and consequence, that ought to be first understood, then accepted (!), and finally responded to.

    ——————————————————————

  • strumpetwindsock

    @John in CA:
    I agree. But it’s all from the perspective of the dominant culture. If you’re in the big tent you feel the freedom to put down those who stand out.
    And you don’t have to have that large a critical mass for it to start happening. Even in cities here where there is a large enough Chinese population you start hearing the “white people are dirty” slur. And there are plenty of other examples – Muslims changine their names to appear more “Arab”, or the old practice of women in South America not shaving so they would seem “european”.

    @Chitown Kev:
    Have you read Titus Andronicus? If not you should check out Act scene 2, in which Aaron, the black villain (though unashamedly so, and one of the more honourable characters) discovers the queen has had his bastard son. He ridicules his son’s step-brothers’ white skin and declares that his black skin is greater than any other colour:

    “Ye white-limed walls! ye alehouse painted signs!
    Coal-black is better than another hue,
    In that it scorns to bear another hue;”

    (the scene is also in Julie Taymor’s film of the play – though the film changed Shakspeare’s text to allow the baby to live.)

    Of course, it was written by a white guy; I think the passage, like Othello’s character flaws, says more about the author than the people he is attempting to portray.

  • Mister C

    @ Chi-Town Kev,

    Where did you get that info that HIP-HOP is a Jamaican import?????? For me who is born and raised in NYC (Brooklyn) to be exact where in East Flatbush we have a MASSIVE CARRIBBEAN population?

    SugarHill Gang and Kurtis Blow who made the first rap records. It was only played in the GHETTO’s of NYC. Now what you heard later on from folks like Shabba Ranks,BuJu Banton,etc that came along in the 90’s that was called “Rockers” which is Carribbean Hip-Hop so to speak and that came way after Hip-Hop and rap bursted on the scene and made a major impression. Rockers have always had HOMOPHOBIC lyrics. Not all rappers rap about homophobia. So I really think this whole notion that the rap community is totally HOMOPHOBIC is ludicrous. As once again as no other music has HOMOPHOBIC lyrics!

    And to An Other Greek…where you said:
    “It’s an interesting question, maybe, but not really related to why there is an epidemic of HIV in the Black community (and homophobia), the issue that fuels a lot of my questions on this thread”
    OKAY well Why is there an epidemic of HIV in the White community and they don’t even know it,or rather it’s not being reported? Why in the South white christians feels it’s warranted to kill gays and openly discriminate against them? Lets get some answers on that!

    Everything isn’t the Black Community!

  • An Other Greek

    OKAY well Why is there an epidemic of HIV in the White community and they don’t even know it,or rather it’s not being reported? Why in the South white christians feels it’s warranted to kill gays and openly discriminate against them? Lets get some answers on that!

    Well, I am not sure “they don’t know it” or it is “not being reported.” The numbers we are given show a much larger occurrence in the Black community, one that has alarmed many people form many communities, race-based and professional… If you choose to deny this, I am not sure how to respond. The fact that there is a devastation of AIDS in communities other than Black, does not in any way relativize the higher and more pressing concerns within the Black community. The fact that DL people exist in all cultures should not discourage interest in the higher occurrences and resulting problems within the Black communities.

    Let’s agree that “Everything isn’t the Black Community!” OK? But in this thread, there is a focus.
    ———————————————————-

  • Chitown Kev

    @strumpetwindsock:

    I LOVE Titus Adronicus. Especially that line where Aaron confronts one of Tamora’s sons (Chiron or Demetrius, cant remember which one) says, “Villan, my mother is undone. Aaron responds, Villian I have done thy mother.”

    Hilarious. I love Shakespeare.

  • Trey

    @An Other Greek: @An Other Greek: “Many African cultures, and certainly many African diaspora cultures maintain a mythology AND celebration of this desire to “spread the seed” in levels unique from others”

    This is the statement that I have a problem with. How is that statement not spreading the hypersexual black myth? I’m sorry that I characterized you as saying that means the majority of blacks, but c’mon….what am I supposed to think?

  • Chitown Kev

    @An Other Greek:

    No, the focus in this thread should have been on DWs possibly anti-Semitic anti-immigrant comment to Michael Lucas (who isnt white by the way) amd Lucas’ extrapolation of DWs comment to all African Americans.

  • Chitown Kev

    @An Other Greek:

    If it exists in all cultures, then why are you focused on the African American community? Thats not the focus of this thread, though I was one of the ones who baited you into talking about it when you were being so cryptic.

  • Chitown Kev

    @Mister C:

    Ok, my bad, I forgot about the Caribbean population in Queens.

    Although personally, I think you are way too defensive about homophobia in hip hop, as I’ve often said, the socioeconmic factor is HUGE.

  • Chitown Kev

    @strumpetwindsock:

    Ah, Othello. Ive done 2 or 3 papers on this play, one of them I am going to push for publication. My view is that considering the racial attitudes of his time (which weren’t as bad as you would think, actually, this was pre-colonial) Shakespeare treatment of Othello was about as sensitive as you could find.

  • An Other Greek

    @Chitown Kev:

    I have a particular interest in the Black community and homosexuality. We are a mixed family, and I have had exposure though family, friends, travel, and study, that makes this a passionate concern of mine, particularly when AIDS is on such a rampage. And I am a big proponent of interconnectivity, and I believe that homophobia and AIDS are siblings. This is a universal concern, with a particular urgency in the Black community.

    As far as DW’s comments I was offended, on many levels, and the thread HAS been a response, on many levels. Lucas? I don’t even know what to say. He is taking some risks and speaking some truths, but the result has been problematic because of his provocativeness and lack of depth. Perhaps these threads can be his legacy. LOL
    —————————————————————–

  • An Other Greek

    @Trey:

    How about you explain “the hypersexual black myth? ”

    —————————————————————-

  • Chitown Kev

    @An Other Greek:

    The interesting thing about Lucas is that he comes from a hugely homophobic society, if he positioned himself correctly he would be in a position to speak on it.

    But now I have a zinger for Lucas. There was a slight strain of anti-Semitism that arose in the AA community here in Chicago because of the Jewish support for Barack Obama throughout the years. It’s ironic that Lucas seems to hate Obama (for possibly racial reasons) so much when, what, 76% of the Jewish vote was for Obama.

  • Trey

    @An Other Greek: actually the whole thing is pretty informative.

  • An Other Greek

    @Trey:

    Yes, YES! agreed!

    I really enjoyed that, thank you. But, and again, respectfully, it’s interesting how two people can get two different meanings out of one segment.

    You see, I found that the segment SUPPORTED what I have been saying, particularly on the 5th minute when Mireille(?) the prof from UC Santa Barbara spoke of “disidentification” !!!

    May I suggest you rehear that part? It may shed some light particularly to the dialogue on this thread.

    Lastly the professor from the LaGuardia, whom I found a lot less interesting than his collegue, spoke of myths, including of course penis size. We must be careful here. Is he denying that penis size does varies through different communities? Do individual exceptions negate collective results. Or is this just another “disidentifying” tactic? Lastly, who are the “disidentifiers?” Are they the scholars/intellectuals, the bourgeoisie, or the artists or the average people within a community? Interesting stuff!
    ——————————————————————–

  • Trey

    @An Other Greek: i have no idea why you found Herbert to be less interesting. He spoke about what I feel is average black person. Those are the disidentifiers. Your statement is the latest of a long tradition of stereotyping black sexuality–a practice that’s been happening since the 1500s. As Chitown Kev said, some groups buy into that stereotype. Since the American public is enamored of all that is salacious, the media buys into the stereotype as well. The rappers that you see on television don’t represent the whole of hip hop, let alone the black community. The black community has been complaining about our limited portrayal in the media for a long time, and this is just another consequence of that portrayal.

  • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

    @An Other Greek:

    Dude was I being literal???

    I’m just saying that not everything is so frigging black and white! I’m not dumb, I’ve travelled around the world, lived in latin countries, african countries, western countries and have close friends form practically EVERY walk of life.

    Ethnography is an interest of mine, so I do GET that similarities between the two is NOT glaring OR literal!

    Heck, what do you think of belly dancing? The turks teach their female kids to gesticulate and moves those hips suggestively at a really, really early age…

  • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

    @An Other Greek:

    But YOU are never listening.

    People are giving you other cultures as example to EXPLAIN that isn’t nec a black thing BUT a political, economical, etc etc..

    Jesus. You just won’t shake it off and making more work for yourself.

    Are that insane that you don’t think that ignorance has a lot to do with lack or progress and visibility re issues of aids etc within Afro Americans? And with that why don’t you calculate how many are pretty poor??

    And really instead of asking these questions, ask WHY Afro Americans are so religous? That shows pretty low intergrative complexity….

    So if you’re dealing with people who are prone to dogmatic attitudes, would this not be mirrored within the lack to understand HIV, or the ‘spreading the seed’ sentiment?

    Again, it’s a TYPE of people, MAJORLY from West African origin, which AA’s and Jamaicans share…

    Sigh.

    Did you watch the Pope telling Africans that they shouldn’t wear condoms??

    Sweet.

  • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

    @Chitown Kev:

    Interesting.

    Just reading a book about Garvey and Du Bois. What’s interesting is how much they travelled and actually didn’t encounter THAT much racism. Relatively considering….

  • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

    To ALL the black posters…

    Am I the only black person who knows more pious black people then hyper sexual rubbish that the media creates and the hip hop community runs away with it??

    This another aspect of black people, the straight laced, pious personality…but the media ignores it, I wonder why?

    Lol, the way my mum is, I swear she had us through immaculate conception!

  • strumpetwindsock

    @Mister C:
    I’m not into hip hop (so excuse my ignorance), but I listened to The Last Poets back in the early 70s and later thought they must have had some influence on the style, though it wasn’t exactly the same thing.

    And since you mention Jamaican Dub, Linton Kwesi Johnson has been doing very political music with the same roots in London since the 70s. Again, not exactly the same, but a close relative.

    @An Other Greek:
    My perception was quite the opposite. I thought DW was perhaps a bit more rude. But he was a straight-talker, and he was honest. I disagree with his comment about not speaking about others, but it was in the context of putting a racist in his place.
    Lucas’ style may have been a bit more polished, but he’s an ignorant hypocrite. And whining about telling on DW to his studio? Childish and presumptuous. Besides, he started the whole thing with his racist comment.

    @An Other Greek: Well it may have been the way you said it – it sounded like you were describing a cultural impetus to breed (hence the comparison to the Chimese and others). But from this post it sounds like you are talking more about a macho thing. Even if that is what ou mean, black cultures certainly have no monopoly on that attitude; I wouldn’t even say they are the worst for it.

    And on why the epidemic is spreading where it is, do you think perhaps the African outbreak might have something to do with the fact that continent is the original source of the virus?

    Where I live, the highest incidence is among native people, largely because of the spread in small, isolated communities. Africa also has a high rural, isolated population, poor access to birth control and medical care, lots of myths and taboos. I think these factors have just as much if not more to do with the rampant spread of the disease than the unsubstantiated claim that black people like to fuck more than the rest of us (that is what we are talking about, right?)

  • An Other Greek

    @Trey:

    right Trey, the problem is the salacious American public.

    “The rappers that you see on television don’t represent the whole of hip hop, let alone the black community.”
    oh, thanks for that straw man. now, you set me straight.

    Herbert WAS less interesting to me because as you said: “He spoke about what I feel is average black person. Those are the disidentifiers. ” Your words. The disidentifiers are problematic as they deny perceived AND actual behavior because of deeply complex discomforts. The other prof was ahead of this.
    ——————————————————————-

  • An Other Greek

    speaking of disidentifiers, the plea from a fellow poster:

    !

    “To ALL the black posters…

    Am I the only black person who knows more pious black people then hyper sexual rubbish that the media creates and the hip hop community runs away with it??”

    wow, need I say more?

    ——————————————————-

  • An Other Greek

    “The turks teach their female kids to gesticulate and moves those hips suggestively at a really, really early age…”

    Using one example to isolate a topic is a further unconstructive tactic. If only absolute apply for your perception, what can I say? Besides, the Turks have a very different sexual expression and social control of sexuality. And very different relationship to Homophobia, disease, and other maladies than typical samplings ranging from African and diaspora stats.

    Is it possible for this to be objective information? Or is it not possible to refrain from placing a value judgment?

    ——————————————————————

  • An Other Greek

    “People are giving you other cultures as example to EXPLAIN that isn’t nec a black thing BUT a political, economical, etc etc..”

    If you reread my posts you will see that I never disassociated economy or politics from the analysis of the epidemic. Rather!

    I was trying to shed light in what I see as a complex situation with MANY contributing factors.

    —————————————————————

  • Chitown Kev

    @An Other Greek:

    In the interest of full disclosure, I havent listened to that thread yet but…

    Sure, I know African Americans that do buy into that stereotype but I also know many African Americans (mostly who go to church) who also have an almost…Victorian attitude about the subject of sex. Both attitudes can exist in the same place in the same time, one doesn’t necessarily “dis-identify” the other. Your proposal suggests a very deterministic view (the po’ thangs just cant help themselves) that I find offensive.

  • Chitown Kev

    @An Other Greek:

    I dont think its possible to present this objectively, quite frankly. Perhaps if you included other factors in your analysis (i.e. matriarchy in African American communities is much more pronounced than in other African diaspora communities)?

  • An Other Greek

    I think we have reached a ceiling.

    I feel the arguments on the table are not convincing, and at a level no longer “fertile.” They are predictable and fit well to the issues raised in the NPR segment. Besides, as I previously stated, I have enough suspicion of my own ideas and the possible dangerous territory they near…

    I’m certain that my arguments shed no new light in any perceptions as well. That’s fine, I may be wrong about my speculations, and/or I am not good at sufficiently communicating the issues.

    Either way, I feel I have said all that could be in this type forum, so thank you Trey, and John, and Chitown kev, and Strumetwindsock, et al., for the exchange. I’m sure in the non-virtual world we would identify as kindred spirits in many ways. Off to my evening plans. Peace.

    ——————————————————————–

  • getreal

    @An Other Greek: I have slowly made my way through this thread and have read some very interesting insights and perspectives. One thing that really stuck out for me is the posts where you confessed that you “struggle with racism” I found that troubling. It makes one wonder and some have here how much your theories and arguments are based on that struggle.

  • strumpetwindsock

    @An Other Greek:

    Actually I’d like to take a step back from “other factors” because I don’t think you have established any kind of connection in the first place.

    Setting aside what I think are assumptions on your part, I just don’t think you have made a solid case connecting African agrarian society and the HIV epidemic and homophobia. Besides, African farming didn’t really compare to the fertile crescent (there is more herding/hunting) and the continent has a wide range of cultures and climates.

    Before drawing others in, the onus is on you clarify your terms and establish your argument.

    And did someone say salacious? Time to make some popcorn and warm up the VCR for a double bill of Mandingo and Blackula.

  • TANK

    @An Other Greek:

    It’s refreshing to encounter someone with a good mind on this blog’s comments section.

    Getreal has made quite a few good points as well, though, despite the “varying perspectives” of equal weight relativism clause.

  • Chitown Kev

    @strumpetwindsock:

    You know on another blog, there was an African American writer that began a discussion of racism in the LGBT community with an black nationalist author (Frances Cress Welsing) that proposed a version of similar theories. Thankfully, there was a few gay black men that saw that name and instantly clawed into the author of the piece on the very same grounds that we clawed into Greek.

    http://www.bilerico.com/2009/03/racism_the_cancer_that_slowly_consumes_o.php

  • Chitown Kev

    @getreal:

    See, I dont mind if someone admits that they “struggle” with racism. I myself struggle with sexism (I will toss out the b-word or even the c-word in a minute) and classism (reference some of my comments on “ghetto” or “churched” black people) and even racism (see my previous comment on the Chinese) I mean, at least they acknowledge that they struggle with it–that means they are working on it.

  • Trey

    @An Other Greek: yeah, the arguments are all too predictable. it seems as if you have a blind spot when it comes to generalizations. people used the same hypersexual generalization against the wider gay community. yet, our community fights against that stereotype constantly (especially with the current fight for marraige). nevertheless, when i claim that the urge “spread the seed” is only true of a segment of the black population, I am called an apologist–i am making excuses for my community.

    i guess i’ll have to live with these stereotypes for the foreseeable future. good thing i’m used to it.

  • strumpetwindsock

    @Chitown Kev:
    Thanks for the link. It’s very interesting, and I’m working my way through it.

  • Rudy

    @cufflinks:
    I hate Lucas’s porn.
    Like so many guys I’ve tossed out of bed, his penis doesn’t measure up to his attitude.

  • lileasy

    @Chitown Kev: Stalin murdered maybe 20 million people and he was worried about the affects of gays on Russian furtility rates? Machismo and homophobia is as much a part of the Russian culture as it is of the African culture. Same-same. Also to whoever made the point: as an American of Russian extraction, please, please, do not refer to Russia as my “homeland.” Do black Americans think of Africa as the “homeland?” America is my homeland. That would probably go double for Russian Jews who have been badly treated (pogrommed and massacred for centuries by the Russian government and people. Otherwise, I am really enjoying this conversation.

  • Chitown Kev

    @lileasy:
    For one, if you research African culture, pre-colonial African attitudes toward homosexuality varied from African culture to African culture. It was the introduction of Christianity to Africa that skewed that variation.

    Second, remember that at the base of Marxist belief is a deep-seated homophobia (read Engles book on the the family, I cant remember the title offhand). Also consider the massive losses as a result of the second World War. Some of the most brutal anti-gay laws occured under Stalin. Where you are probably right is that everyone from Stalin to Breshnev was able to do this given the homophobia already present in Soviet culture.

    Personally, I don’t consider Africa a homeland but many AAs do.

  • lileasy

    @Chitown Kev: I am with you. Still, for me, hearing Russia called the “homeland” grates like fingernails on a chalkboard. As my earlier ancestors immigrated to Russia from Turkey and India, and originally Africa, I suppose it would be just as true to call these places the “homeland.”

  • strumpetwindsock

    @lileasy:
    Plus what anyone considers the homeland and culture is a completely personal (and often mythical) construction anyway.

    When most of us think of our overseas heritage we’re thinking of something that’s at least 100 years old and has nothing to do with how people actually live there.
    I have met people who came here just 50 years ago, but are now out of touch with contemporary culture and language in their homeland.

    I know you have to deal with it in the way that feels right for you, but very often people faced with an ugly reality reach back to an older culture that resonates for them. And again, sometimes it’s myth; Monmouth’s History of Britain – which borrowed the Welsh Arthur legend – was mostly fiction. The Irish also did it in the late 1800s, and I presume AA culture has done some of the same thing.

    Plus it goes both ways. I know when Ukraine opened up in the 90s people went back there to teach some of the old culture they had lost, and I know there have been similar examples of Scottish culture being re-imported from north america.

    (but sorry – another tangent)

  • Chitown Kev

    @strumpetwindsock:

    and that goes a lot of different ways, Many Africans aren’t all that friendly with African Americans.

  • strumpetwindsock

    @Chitown Kev:
    I can see that.

    Fortunately I never had the illusion I was going “home” when I visited some of the places my family came from. Funny – I visited a place on the west coast of Ireland and the fellow I stayed with was considered an outsider, although he was born only 40 km away. His wife, who was from London (and of Caribbean heritage), was of course from the other side of the moon.

    One thing that a lot of people (particularly Native, French, but others too) here in Canada stress is the importance of language. If you don’t have the language you may have something perfecly valid, but you will always be a step removed from the original culture. That’s probably why the Irish brought their language back from the brink, and why you see people fighting to keep Cree, Ojibway, Yiddish, Gaelic and other languages alive.

    I met an old Innu (eskimo) man at a conference once who told me the loss of their language would mean people would no longer be able to survive on the tundra, because Inuktitut has very specific navigational words (for a hill on the left side of a body of water, as opposed to the right side, for example). For him, language and culture literally meant survival.

    William Burroughs “language is a virus” saying is absolutely true. A different language completely changes your outlook on the world.

  • BrodyIsHuge

    What does homophobia have to do with hiring more black actors?

    Last time I checked Matt Shepherd was killed by 2 white dudes. White actors still got hired.

    Lucas is racist like most of the porn industry.

  • mike80

    He is a cool man. we all love him. there are so many fans of him. and they set up the groups related to stars. you can even check out his sexy and beautiful photos, videos and blogs on
    agelesskiss.com

  • Derek

    @Rudy:

    Exactly right – Lucas is all dick and no head… and even that gets dull and boring. The more he runs his mouth, the harder I roll my eyes and/or laugh. The guy is a complete joke – and doing that pout and swagger thing he does will never change that.

  • sparkle obama

    @getreal:

    well it’s a manifestation of self hate.
    it’s human, not necessarily “african american”.
    many, many americans have low self esteem & be hatin on each other in general.

    oh, Black people are “homophobic”? really?
    i heard Black people like to smoke weed too.
    effie, we all got pain!

  • getreal

    @sparkle obama: Well I was at a birthday party at HERE ( a popular gay hotspot)in west hollywood this past weekend and got a bunch of bullshit come osn by obviously gay black men. We as a community have to figure out why gay black men continue to try to insert themselves into the straight black dating pool. Straight women are sick of this down low business and it is creating a new wave of homophobia. For those who say it is a minor consideration talk to any black woman and she will have a lot of story of down low men trying “pass” and date them. The only gay men consistently hitting on me are black ones.

  • Trey

    @getreal: who needs straight black women, when you seem to be able to spout homophobic nonsense by yourself?

    you seriously need to expand on your comments. so, you were in a gay bar, and got hit on by gay men? and somehow, that means that gay black men insert themselves into the straight black dating pool?

  • Trey

    wait…is this an april fool’s joke?

  • getreal

    @Trey: No I work in HIV and AIDS activism and have worked with thousands of women who are now dying because the black community refuses to talk about this issue. I also work with LGBT youth in the black community and have been present at several very well attended panel discussions on this issue. If you are ignorant about it then don’t insert your into the conversation as you clearly have nothing to add on the subject

  • getreal

    There are people in the black community that want to shut down any conversation that threatens them. For some reason they attack any white person who has an opinion on our community as racist to attempt to quiet them to accuse any other black person who has an opinion as homophobic. If frank discussions of the black communities issues with homophobia and related subjects threatens you so much avoid them don’t try to shut down frank discussions because you can’t deal with the fact that theses are issues in our community that need to be addressed. The only April fool joke is you.

  • Trey

    @getreal: “We as a community have to figure out why gay black men continue to try to insert themselves into the straight black dating pool.”

    If you’re working with LGBT’s of color, then you really need to work on the prejudiced and homophobic comments that you spout. Don’t use a “frank discussion” as an excuse to portray the gay black community as man-stealing “jezebels.” I’ve had teachers and counselors like you who “help” me while simultaneously undermining my self-worth by perpetuating stereotypes and misinformation about my community.

    Yes, there are closeted black men, but they are no more indicative of a collective trend than white closet cases are to the wider white gay community.

  • getreal

    Look I’m not responsible for whatever teachers or counselors took away your self-worth and I’m not going to let you project your anger or unhappiness about that onto me. Every posts of yours has had the same theme that the down low thing doesn’t exist and has no effect on the black community and anyone who disagrees with you is racist or homophobic. I don’t think the countless news stories,articles,documentaries, and exposé’s about this subject are talking about a subject that doesn’t exist. I don’t think Oprah has done 10 different shows on a subject that doesn’t exist. Look if your brain can’t grasp the difference between down low and closet that is you and if it doesn’t exist then we don’t need to discuss it. I have never said anything negative about the gay community in general this discussion was about a small subset of people. It sounds to me you admittedly have your own issues with self-worth and being closeted that you keep trying to injected in a larger discussion about race and politics. This is not about you brother. Since anyone who doesn’t agree with you is a racist or a homophobe just buzz of I’m trying to have a real discussion I’m not your therapist and I’m certainly not some teacher or counselor from your past.

  • Trey

    @getreal: if you had read my comments, then you would have understood that i had a problem with that the theory that the “down low” is unique to the black community.

    “I have never said anything negative about the gay community in general”

    No, just the black gay community. am i wrong in thinking that you said the black gay community inserts itself into the black straight community?

    you didn’t say men on the down low. you didn’t say closeted men. you said the black gay community.

    there are countless articles, exposes, and documentaries on black crime, yet, I would never call the black community, “criminals.”

    why don’t you explain how the down low is different from the closet? i have yet to get an answer.

    oh, and i never called you a racist, though I’m starting to think that you are. I said that you were saying prejudiced and homophobic things.

    In the words of Ta-nahesi Coates:
    “Understand the difference–the racist simply argues that you are less than. The [email protected]#$ing racist argues he isn’t allowed to say you are less than, right after he’s said as much.”

  • getreal

    @Trey: Well it was addressed about 10 times in the thread at length maybe you should read all the posts so you can get a clearer picture of the discussion. That question was answered over and over.

  • Chitown Kev

    @getreal:
    I have to run out to my own little activist meeting here in the Windy City but getreal, you are too good to be real, I’d love to stay in touch.

    Trey, I’m not quite where you are at but I used to be (I am also a little older). I get you.

  • sparkle obama

    @getreal:

    what about straight women attempting to insert themselves into the gay dating pool??
    if i would only go straight i could be married tomorrow!

  • Trey

    @getreal: sorry, i didn’t see that question answered. i checked before i responded to you. why don’t you help me out?

    @Chitown Kev: you don’t know where I am, but you used to be? I’m not sure I follow.

  • getreal

    @Chitown Kev: I have a lot to learn and your posts always deepen and improve any conversation you are in.

  • getreal

    @sparkle obama: We need to address those in denial, pushy,opportunistic sisters too. Thank you Sparkle Obama!

  • getreal

    @Trey: See post 47 and 59 there are others you would see if you read the whole thread. Which I recommend as there were some really intelligent well thought out posts whether you agree with the different points of view or not.

  • Trey

    @getreal: so it’s the arrogance of black men that make them DL? OK. I think that’s a pretty weak distiction, especially if you can point out many white closet cases who exhibit the same characteristics. I already mentioned Ted Haggard and Mark Foley. You said that Ted Haggard showed remorse, though i’d argue that is debatable. Larry Craig, Charlie Crist, and Bob Allen also comes to mind. They’re all pretty arrogant, and I think their wives were probably surprised.

  • TANK

    @getreal:

    I can’t believe the kind of abuse and lies you’ve had to put up with from other commenters who will shut down any conversation about race and homophobia with slurs and ignorance. Even from a person who works in the field like you do…this isn’t about evidence or rationality, or reality…this is about an agenda. You can’t win against a true believer. You can just repeat the truth to their dissembling.

  • Trey

    @TANK: you’re pretty much guilty of everything that you just decried.

    why do you believe the DL is unique to the black community?

  • TANK

    HIV/AIDS rates speak for themselves. Also, hypermasculinism in the AA community and strict enforcement and adherence to gender roles is a byproduct of socioeconomic oppressions. Of course, there are different people, but the mainstream representation and mainstream norm is captured by a host of media that specifically targets black consumers. When all you have left is your attitude, you use that.

  • getreal

    @TANK:Thanks it is sad that there are some commenters on here who are so threatened by different points of view. It is good to see they are in the minority and most people want to and are not afraid to discuss these sensitive issues. You are right you can’t argue with a true believer some people believe what they want to believe and just want to disrupt not contribute to any meaningful discussion about race and homophobia.

    @Trey:
    I never said DL men were arrogant I said the man who wrote the article I linked was. Had you read it I doubt you would disagree

  • TANK

    And pretty much guilty of all that? LMAO Because I agree with getreal I’m guilty of all that…try thinking, for once. It makes talking to you otherwise bearable.

  • getreal

    @TANK: You are talking facts and reality all he wants to do is argue with someone. Your arguments are to intelligent and well thought out to explain to someone who does not see the complexity of these issues.

  • TANK

    And while there is antisemitism is the black community, it’s nothing compared to antisemitism amongst whites. Nothing.

  • Trey

    @getreal: so what is the difference? the remorse? the duping of straight women?

    i think it’s pretty arrogant that i’m supposed to swallow comments like “black gay men insert themselves into the black straight dating pool” like so much bad medicine. this is your example of producing facts? you cite gay black men chatting you up in a gay bar as evidence of our insertion into hetero lives. this is your evidence?

    if questioning my intelligence allows you to disregard my problems with your prejudiced comments, then so be it. it doesn’t really change the nature of what you said.

    your argument closely resembles the whole gay recruitment prejudice that a lot of homophobes use against the wider gay community. a lot of right wing conservatives argue that gay men insert themselves into hetero lives. look at the DADT advocates. they would argue that they are just having a frank discussion, and that they aren’t being homophobic…just speaking facts. they cite HIV/AIDS. they cite portrayals of the mainstream media.

    So after you get done telling me everything that’s wrong with the black gay community, when do the solutions come?

  • getreal

    @Trey: I’m not wasting my time arguing with someone who won’t even bother to read the thread, insults anyone who has a different opinion and has called me a racist and a homophobe. Buzz off you seem unable to understand very basic themes and ideas and you are boring. Good night to you.

  • Trey

    @getreal: like i said…i never got my answer. it’s never pretty when people are confronted with their own homophobia and prejudice…they tend to shoot the messenger.

  • getreal

    @Trey: You got the messages many times from many different people you are too argumentative and thick headed to hear it you have tried for days to derail the thread and it just doesn’t work.Shoo fly.

  • getreal

    @Trey: Other posters called you out on the scare tactic of calling people homophobic and racist who didn’t agree with you. Your are the person on here blaming people from your sense of self worth teachers and counselors took from you. I think you have issues with your own Down Low status and your own sense of self worth and you keep trying to take it out on everyone here and no one will take the bait.Maybe it’s time for another counselor?

  • Trey

    @getreal: You see a young black man, and automatically think he is on the down low? figures.

    i never called anyone else a racist. just you…and i’m only calling you that now. the down low comment cinched it.

  • getreal

    Who cares you are a joke. That is why everyone who tried to speak to you on this thread gave up on you. Unlike you I have self-worth and i don’t care about your petty name calling. It’s sad not intimidating play the race card you don’t have any facts tha’s all you have left.

  • Trey

    @getreal: get used to it, because i don’t think i’m the first and i won’t be the last to call you on your racism. i just hope you think twice before espousing your theories to the people you “help.” it’s never too late to eracism.:)

  • getreal

    The only person who ever talked about “help” was you. You seem to have a huge problem based on the teachers and counselors who in your words “took their self-worth when they tried to help you”. I think you should some responsibility for your own actions and stop trying to work out your anger over teachers and counselors on complete strangers who have never done anything to you and don’t know you. It is funny that your only defense to being to ignorant and simplistic to follow this dialogue is to call another black person racist. You have problems even when i told you to read the thread that was too hard you had to have me go through and find posts for you. Grow up stop calling people racist if they disagree with you it belittles all the real racism that goes on everyday. And if being a down low man makes you so angry you need to attack people just for discussing it stop living a down low lifestyle. There are better ways to live. God bless you brother.

  • getreal

    oops you said “they took your self-worth” sounds like you gave it away.

  • Trey

    @getreal: i was fine with your comments until 254. i don’t care for blanket statements about black gay men, so i called you on it. now that i find out about you being black, i guess i can’t call you racist against your brothers and sisters. What you said was definitely prejudiced.

  • Trey

    @getreal: i was fine with your comments until 254. i don’t care for blanket statements about black gay men, so i called you on it. now that i find out about you being black, i guess i can’t call you racist against your brothers and sisters. What you said was definitely prejudiced and homophobic, though.

  • getreal

    Anyone who has read this thread can see no one made blanket statements against black men. This moron is three days of complaining and insulting people couldn’t be bothered to actually read it. He calls me racist because he thinks I’m white.

    @Trey: And if being a down low man makes you so angry you need to attack people just for discussing it stop living a down low lifestyle. There are better ways to live. God bless you brother.

  • Trey

    @getreal: you said black gay men insert themselves into the black straight dating pool.

  • Trey

    well, it’s bedtime for me. i wish that i could say that this has been worth it, but it seems that you have a pretty myopic view of your own community.

  • TANK

    Give your wife a kiss goodnight for me, trey.

  • getreal

    @TANK: Oh my gosh you kill me!!!!!!! Hilarious!

  • Trey

    sigh…you’re right. i was wrong. night.

  • getreal

    If you want to read a really disturbing post about race check out this one from the American Tourist En Route Jamaica thread. Discuss.

    No. 25 · stevenelliot
    I am sure Mr Neville Carnegie will enjoy his vacance to jamaica. He will be either in a hotel or a villa where he will be waited on by black females who are unmarried and most will have illegitimate children.
    This being the culture of the islands. Since the time of slavery, island black men have been mentally “bred” to be farm animal studs. They stay at home with their parents like little boys and go out and impregnate the mares of the “hood”
    Its a place of great beauty but it is still ruled by the laws of a white man’s god and the black man’s lack of change.
    How does one expect these back-ass people to accept homosexulaity? Their old masters taught them to breed at will. Gayness is the antithesis of the mindset these people have had for 500 years.

  • Trey

    yeah, that really puts my qualms about your comment into perspective.

  • Sale Chanel

    Great blog posting..thanks for shearing information.

  • TheTruth

    Michael Lucas is a ‘tard. He knows nothing about African-Americans or how we feel so for him to speak on the issue makes him look stupid. No matter how many rap songs he listens to, or news and papers he reads, he can not justify having any kind of knowledge on the Dl issue as it pertains to the African American culture because he is simply a “reader” of the culture. He doesn’t live it, and he certainly isn’t African American. Furthermore, in order to speak intelligently on the issue of the Down Low Gays, one would have to recognize that it isn’t a fucking “African American culture”. It is a subculture of the Gay Community, as a whole. Black, White, Russian, Jewish people all have gays that live their lives on the Down low. Secondly, Lucas is making an excuse. It’s one thing to be predominantly attracted to a certain type of Man, but don’t make the excuse that the reason why there aren’t a lot of Black men in (Lucas Entertainment) porn is because we have an issue with homosexuality. That IS bullshit, just as Washington suggested. The reason there isn’t a lot of Blacks in porn is because racist motherfuckers like Lucas don’t want to pay them, don’t want to employ them, and certainly feel that they can’t make any money off of them. I for one wouldn’t want to be in some “foot and toe sucking perverted ass Lucas film in the first place. The man is a ‘tard and a pervert racist idiot. He displays his ignorance in every interview or “Q&A” time he does in his weak ass scenes. He’s spent so many years putting Guys feet in his mouth, he doesn’t even realise when he has his own inserted. Fuck his turned up herpe-ridden crooked lip’d ass.

  • LucasFan

    Michael Lucas may be a douche, but that makes me want him SO MUCH MORE!

  • TheRealAdam

    I have nothing to contribute to this absolutely useless, hilarious trainwreck of a thread. I just wanted to be the 300th poster.

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