https://youtu.be/_H11x6bMu4Y
Oy! We’ve got yet another controversial preacher making election-related headlines.
Catholic Priest Michael Pfleger, an Obama-backer, appeared at the now infamous Trinity Church last week and spent some of his sermon mocking Senator Hillary Clinton, who he accuses of being too presumptuous about winning the nomination. While some would argue that Pfleger had a point, it’s his racialized language that most find offensive, especially when he claims Clinton has been consumed by “white entitlement.” accuses of being consumed by “white entitlement.”
Obama did not delay in distancing himself from Pfleger, saying that he prefers unifying rhetoric:
As I have traveled this country, I’ve been impressed not by what divides us, but by all that that unites us. That is why I am deeply disappointed in Father Pfleger’s divisive, backward-looking rhetoric, which doesn’t reflect the country I see or the desire of people across America to come together in common cause.
Hoping to hush the outrage, Pfleger also released a statement, insisting that his words do no reflect Obama’s beliefs.
The Clinton camp’s enraged, obviously, and their reaction clearly hopes to put Obama on the defensive:
How about we take this to the next level?
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Divisive and hateful language like that is totally counterproductive in our efforts to bring our party together and have no place at the pulpit or in our politics. We are disappointed that Senator Obama didn’t specifically reject Father’s Pfleger’s despicable comments about Senator Clinton, and assume he will do so.
No doubt the Republicans are loving this and will attempt to use this to their advantage. John McCain declined to comment, which is wise, because he just had to sack to preachers himself.
Tom
Oy vey, here we go again.
But is he “white” or a very light skinned “black” guy?
The crying scene was funny, but I wish these preachers would just stick to fighting the devil and saving souls…
david
In their sad minds, Hillary *is* the devil.
rjb
Sexism is encouraged and cheered on. What’s funny to me is- replace Hillary with a gay man and he would have been prancing and lisping around the alter. It’s same sort of hate and acceptable bias.
noah
Father Pfleger is a white man and social-justice activist. And, I don’t find his discussion offensive at all. Discussing white privilege and the sense of entitlement that people who have been at the top of the heap should not be taboo.
Because a conversation makes a “white people” nervous does not mean that there’s anything wrong with it inherently. The fact is that white privilege, just as heterosexual privilege, is a fact. Look at the recent ABC report on how heterosexual reacted to two same-sex couples kissing. Some people were disgusted. One woman called 911. Why? Because they found gay amorous behavior scary to their world view of hetero-normality.
Queerty Editors, are you really saying that white Americans as a group don’t experience a benefit from their skin? Are you saying that white privilege doesn’t affect the way that white Americans experience opportunities in education, employment, and the criminal justice system?
Do you really want to pretend that there isn’t a glass ceiling or the repeated release of innocent non-white men who were railroaded into prison hasn’t happened? Institutionalized racism like the law that gave harsher prison sentences for possession of crack vs. cocaine has only been changed recently.
You may want to look into Father Pfleger’s Chicago where police officer John Budge tortured false confessions out of black men. While you’re looking at Chicago, you may want to look into how a young gay man was beaten by Chicago police officers who only stopped assaulting after he managed to explain he was HIV positive. Or, since you’re in New York, you may want to look into the study that showed white male ex-felon has a better chance of getting a job than an African-American man with a college education who has never been involved with the criminal justice system.
All of these incidents result from prejudice that gives bigots the feeling of entitlement that different rules of justice apply to them versus others: it’s okay to treat some more violently because they aren’t real people.
As for this crap about preachers keeping their mouths only talking about the devil, I can only think about how crappy the world would be if Martin Luther King Jr had not been political. What if Jesus had not talked about social justice?
Also, the mocking of Hillary’s tears isn’t about mocking her gender but her behavior when she cried. Pfleger’s mockery is no more sexist than mocking any politician’s noted characteristics. How many times have we seen George W. Bush impersonated?
Finally, many people across the country have all said that Hillary Clinton felt that the primary was more coronation than primary, demanding that agreed upon rules be changed to suit her even when she agreed to those rules, discounting states that uses caucuses, dismissing African-American voters, etc.
rjb
I just find it problematic to discuss white privilege while asserting male privilege. It is naive to believe his mocking and impersonation isn’t intertwined with her sex. The overt implication is she exploited what is expected of her as a woman.
He also belittled her credentials for running for president, mentioning the fact that she is married to Bill Clinton and her race as her two reasons for being in the race. It is completely sexist to assume that she thinks she is entitled to be president because her husband had been.
White privilege is very real in this country but Father Pfleger’s assertions are so simplistic. Should Hillary have just left the race because of the white privilege she has benefited from? That’s ridiculous white guilt and does not advance anyone.
The logical ending place for his sermon is reparations for African Americans and I’m pretty sure the issue of reparations has been absent in both Obama and Clinton’s stomp speeches. They’re both playing the same safe political game with the issue of reparations. The same way they both don’t believe in gay marriage. They are both to frighten to be for gay marriage. They walk the line as to upset the middle or the center of the voting public.
Finally, Obama has also benefited from privilege- male privilege, straight privilege, and class privilege. He’s a Harvard educated lawyer, senator, millionaire for crying out loud.
dellisonly
WAIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!!
Hillary is not the devil?
Thomas Delayed
Fuck you Noah and the whore you rode in on.
After all the fucking work that Hillary Clinton and her husband did to help the black movement move forward (more than it did with ANY other president, you bash her.
There is no more “white entitlement” than “black entitlement. I don’t see BET handing out awards to white? I don’t see quotas for white entitlement in universitites.
You are an ungrateful little fucking bitch.
This shithole of a preacher has no right to stand up in his FUCKING TAX EXEMPT CHURCH and make comments like this.
An Other Greek
Thomas Delayed,
Your hateful, poisonous post is offensive on so many levels.
But it does reveal the hate in your heart. Your supporting words are speculative and easily debunked. And this takes the cake:
“There is no more “white entitlement†than “black entitlement. ”
Brilliant! What an analysis bringing up BET!!
All I know from you is that you are a hateful racist that has very little self-knowledge and no respect for logic or argument. Please shut up.
—————————————————-
Joe
Another example how Obama associates with men of HATE.
This is his church people. He is still a member and still gives them money. When Obama campaingn in SC in Jan, he placed preachers who openly preach gay conversion prominently in his rallies. He had no pro-gay speakers and then claimed he was allowing all voices.
Also replace the words “white woman” with “black man”, have him preach at Hillary’s church of 20 years and see all the Obama-tologist cry “racism” and hateful things about her.
Obama is a danger to the Democratic party and his campaign needs to be ended NOW.
If he gets the nomination, all correct minded democrats should band together, form a new group – Dems for McCain and nogotiate some things from his campaign for our support.
McCain for 4 years is safer than Obama for one day.
Afroguapo
Queerty hasn’t posted all of my posts – 3 of them still missing as rebuttals to Charley, Churchill and another; meanwhile Church, Leland et al go postal with the diatribes and invective. Joe, if you really are progressive, one would think you would advocate objecting BHO for voting for the Green candidate, NOT an uber status quo war hawk pro-rich, pro-straight McCain. Moreover, BHO and HRC are more aligned on policy issues than HRC is with McCain so why the leap there?? It’s illogical and hyerbolic to state “McCain for 4 years is safer than Obama for one day” when we know McCain admits he knows nothing about the economy, wants to preserve the tax cuts and had the audacity to sing Bomb Bomb Bomb Iran.
Thomas Delayed
Hey Greek
So it is cool for Obama’s church to spew venom and hate all over the place, yet it not okay to defend the rights of a woman who happens to be white.
If this fuckwad of a preacher had been making comments about Obama, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson would be having that church closed down.
You can rest assured if this sort of shit continues, John McCain will be the next president
So I won’t shut up. You shut the fuck up. If you can’t eat the same shit you shovel out.
This divisive shit and talk of entitlements will not fly any place but New York and California.
rjb
Being as inflammatory as you accuse Father Pfleger of being takes away any point you had tried to make in the first place.
CHURCHILL-Y
Here we go again another creep on the GOD D@MN AMERICA AFRO-CENTRIC MAKE WHITEY PAY FOR WHAT THEY DID TO US church! Is it really any wonder that Hussein attended that church alongside his kids for 20 years? Probably the rumored tape of Miss NEVER BEEN PROUD OF MY COUNTRY Michelle is of her also giving a hateful speech inside those bigoted and hate filled walls. Get ready folks because if Hussein and the militants succeed this is just the beginning of a painful and agonising defeat come November. Afroguapo is a liar Queerty unlike other gay blogs like Towleroad doesn’t sensor any comments if nothing has shown up under his name it’s because he hasn’t posted it. Lying hypocrite!
http://www.obamameeksrecord.wordpress.com/
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/13/17299/3193
NObama!!!
Afroguapo
Uhm girl, it’s censor. You clearly need a timeout, a xanax and a dictionary. To which address would you like my unposted posts sent?
CHURCHILL-Y
And then they have gall of calling anyone who’s not with Barack Hussein racist! When all that comes out of their mouths and most importantly their ACTIONS is racism and homophobia. BS that’s what they are all about in the end. So defending oneself of people who feel that you owe them something and need to be ashamed of yourself because of their rotten lot in life “inflammatory” rjb? Please.
-“My commitments are to the values of that church”- Barack Hussein commenting on Trinity Church
rjb
There is nothing inflammatory about insisting on calling Barack Hussein and not his full name? It’s such a transparent attempt at fear baiting. I’m not a Barack Obama supporter but give me break.
CHURCHILL-Y
Thank you Afroguapo, you know not all we whiteys are superior beings who never make any grammatical errors as yourself and your people. I’m sure you and Meeks are instructing well your pupils both in English grammar and Black Libeation/Homophobic theology.
TE AMO and I don’t wish any harm on you even though you are a racist self loathing gay man.
NObama!!!
rjb
what a pube
CHURCHILL-Y
To which address would you like my unposted posts sent?- Try typing the words and then pressing the submit button.
I always really look forward to seeing your hypocritical rants and lame excuses on behalf of black homophobic people.
I sincerely do. JE T’AIME
Why Church Needs Therapy
Queerty advised I create a new account. Here is one of the previous posts Church.
Church:
You’ve said the word “militant” 8 times in just this thread alone with two “Hussein” references thrown in for good measure and it seems like it’s a facile attempt to stoke the fears and anxieties of non-blacks on here and further polarize those who are characterized as militant or angry if they support BHO — BillieX even made the disclaimer. The assertion that my default support for Obama (like most blacks) is predicated on race is patently false. Just as you presumably support HRC for her stance on issues, I support BHO for his positions on domestic/social, international, environmental and economic issues. I do have issues with HRC’s “tangible record”, her veracity and questionable tactics such as the ones offered here: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/10/opinion/10herbert.html?_r=1&oref=slogin and http://www.huffingtonpost.com/celeste-fremon/clinton-slams-democratic_b_97484.html. As to your contention that “Hillary Clinton could have been mother Theresa and she still would have lost the african american vote once Obama announced his candidacy†Billie X astutely points out that “[w]hen Obama announced he was going to run, he did not have the black vote” as black support would have to be earned since he was an unknown quantity. Despite HRC’s dubious tactics in running her campaign, she still has black support from Charles Rangel, to the Mayor of Philadelphia, to relatives and black friends of mine and countless others. As to BHO’s stance on LGBT issues, I feel that he, like most “mainstream” candidates including HRC — see the Queerty thread on gay marriage in CA and candidate responses, has constrained himself (e.g. supposedly not taking the picture with Newsome) so as to not become a fringe/marginal candidate and lose potential votes. Is it hurtful and insulting? undoubtedly yes, because we as LGBT deserve all the equal rights that heterosexuals can take for granted and it’s long overdue. I think it would be a different story if he were to get into office where he would exercise his constitutional law background (e.g., progressive appointments to the Supreme Court, etc.) rather than appointing strict constructionists like McCain and would be a more vocal stalwart champion of LGBT rights (he’s signaled as much when he references gays in his speeches saying we cannot be scapegoated and maligned and further polarize us). You misinterpreted the quote: “Jeesh, WE’RE giving you a black president already, when is enough, enough, Can I just write my check and get it over with!†You erroneously thought I was alluding to reparations when I was actually pointing out that BHO would be the president of the United States, and representing AMERICANS in all of our disparate backgrounds, and not the president for just black people, and it’s condescending that this poster is stating that this is something just being given to blacks. So no, I, nor anyone else for that matter, is looking for a handout, a standard trope often used against black people. Besos y Abrazos, Afro
Why Church Needs Therapy
RJB and Joe,
I can appreciate your sentiments about the appearance that there is double standard between the racism and sexism in this campaign or that sexism doesn’t seem to resonate as much as racism. However, from a historical lens as the article below illustrates, I think HRC (Geraldine Ferraro, Cindy McCain, Laura Bush et al) may be viewed as a less sympathetic character because (1) white women have traditionally benefitted in meaningful ways from being the wives, mothers, daughters, sisters, girlfriends of white men and (2) HRC has exploited, which is certainly her right as a politician trying to garner votes, this legacy and affiliation given some tactics (“hard working white Americans,” us versus them). David Gergen pointed this out. I think Alice Walker is off base in her effusive praise of BHO as I don’t think he’s as progressive as I’d like for him to be (more of a centrist) and may end being tainted like HRC. While privileged for being male and heterosexual, I do think he “gets it” in that he is the son of a single mother raised in humble surroundings, viewed as a black man in certain circles and all that that entails, raised abroad and has seen many diverse cultures/religions not feeling that his beliefs or culture is superior to others and married a woman from an extremely poor family. I do think one’s spouse/partner can be a reflection of that person and I personally like the fact that Michelle wasn’t born with a silver spoon in her mouth.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/apr/01/barackobama.uselections2008
CHURCHILL-Y
So now AFRO is is siding with commie Bill Perdue who would love for everyone who doesn’t agree with his hateful ideology locked away. I’m sure you would love Cuba or Russia Afro.
In essence here is the lame spinning afro wrote, blah-blah-blah-blah, RACIST, blah-blah-blah, DON’T YOU DARE TO MENTION HIS REAL NAME, blah-blah-blah, I only disapprove of Hussein’s decision of not wanting to be seen with Newsome(One of our most solid and true supporters for equality), blah-blah-blah, black people always supported Hillary, some like Rangel still do, blah-blah-blah, He is married to a woman who is also black and had a humble upbringing – (like Hillary’s wasn’t) so that means he is going to be more receptive to throwing us some crumbles under the table.
Why are you afraid of his name? It is his birth name! It still is! explain that to me.
Hypocrite! One should only acknowledge things when they are to their own advantage. Why is it that on your ranting and quoting of me you didn’t mention when I tried to extend to you an olive branch by admitting to Hillary’s biggest debacle?
While I commend you for admitting for the first time one of Hussein’s errors, his snubbing of Newsome isn’t the only nor one of the still present problems that he refuses to address, in every post I point to it but you refuse to acknowledge it or try to correct it. Instead you choose to make yourself and other people with your skin color victims and decry racism. You know what I’m talking about:
http://www.obamameeksrecord.wordpress.com/
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/13/17299/3193
Am I an evil white gay man(in your eyes) for bringing this up AFRO?
Only you and other militants believe after much repeating it amongst yourselves that once Hussein Obama entered the race in full the black population in this country at large where still game for Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton. And after New York state all went for Hillary(a given also as Illinois all went for Hussein) Rangel, a dubious character on its own, seeing how the black population voted in lockstep for Hussein in all the other states and his own constituency in Harlem starting to spout the vile you and others do against Senator Clinton, started to ask her privately to quit the race and distanced himself from her just to cover his ass and be in the good graces of Harlem.
CHURCHILL-Y
He is black and he is married to someone who has been poor so he will be more tolerant to and helpful to LGBT people. BULLSH*T Afro.
People look at Hillary’s upbringing.
And unlike you I don’t think just because someone has a history of been poor or a minority(and I’m not only talking about race, though I know to you Afro,to Donna Brazile and to the african American community at large those are the only acceptable traits to be considered a minority and be given social protections against the possible abuse of the majority) that makes them more compassionate against the plight of others.
Examples; the whole african continent rampant with HOMOPHOBIA – Racism perpetuated by people who most likely come pretty close to resembling you physically Afro committed against africans of lighter skin and of genetically great antiquity like the so called pygmies people of the rainforest and the Bushmen:
http://www.survival-international.org/tribes/bushmen
Then there is in the so called diaspora the well renowned and pride to all you afro-centrics the Homophobic murderous Caribbean, where you people thrive in the majority with the exemptions of perhaps two islands. Naming all the hateful so called impoverished islands were Gay people are constantly murder even in songs will take to much space in this post but folks just do a search under Jamaica and Lynchings and start your journey to these lovely one love hell pits.
Then to finish it up we need to look no further than here where hardly blacks are at the top of the economical ladder jet they are at the top of homophobia and crime. Start with this lovely lady who thinks Homosexual rights are not civil rights and doesn’t equate them with the struggles blacks faced a few years back. Sadly her views are well accepted and promoted both from the black pulpits and black organizations(she’s as most african americans is a fervent believer in the ex-gay ideology):
http://www.crystaldixon.com/page04.html
People like Patterson are the rare exemption to the rule and if he thinks he is not going to get as said by Queerty a “shit storm for his decision to support us from his very own people than his got another thing coming!
I make my judgement based on the record Barack Hussein has done NOTHING for the GLBT community at large and by his constant siding with creeps like Meeks and others it gives me no hope that he would be any different in the White House. If anything he will try to appease your beloved impoverished Homophobic african americans Afro with anti-gay legislation in order to secure for himself another 4 more years. I wrote I love you even though I disagree with you, You been unable to write the same shows your hatred for proud white gay men.
我爱ä½
CHURCHILL-Y
And feel free to be a total cunt as you always are by starting to correct my grammar and not adressing the points.
Why Church Needs Therapy
Church
Perhaps email lacks nuance and one doesn’t get the entire or accurate perception of one’s opinion. First, I know nothing about this white pastor except for what Noah said. I think it’s great that a white man speaks about white privilege because it adds credibility as blacks are often viewed as making things up or your favorite phrase, playing victim. I am not a staunch BHO supporter but I do prefer him over HRC. As I’ve said numerous times, I wanted Kucinich b/c I found him authentic and progressive but being an East Coast liberal from suburban New Jersey, I know I am in the minority as far as my views and he wasn’t electable. I don’t think you are evil but I do think you have serious issues, you rant and rage and have such vitriol. No, I don’t hate gay white men and as cliche as it sounds, I have many gay white friends. I do however believe in having candid discussions on race because over the years, I have seen some gay men of color overcompensate in assimilating that they pretend race doesn’t exist or don’t discuss with their gay white friends/lovers so as to not alienate them and by the same token, I’ve seen gay white men act oblivious to race and make some really obnoxious comments. The use of the middle name I find disingenuous as it’s not common practice to refer to someone by their first and middle names. According to this, BHO and HRC were both rated 89% on the LGBT score card so no, I don’t think BHO is a homophobe. http://lesbianlife.about.com/od/lesbianactivism/p/BarackObama.htm
I do think that he and HRC have pandered to get the votes; in the former, he’s reached out to the overly traditional black church, myopic pastors and their congregations and she’s appealed to Reagan democrat whiskey swilling hard working blue collar whites who may have a propensity for sticking to their own — neither of them really identifies with these people but merely wants the votes. As Bill Perdue said, change would be a third party and not this corrupt two party system.
I have said in previous posts that I feel older blacks place too much emphasis on religion and the church. There was an article in the Times about megapastors and how poor latino and blacks tithe when that money could go to other good use (bills, savings, etc.) rather than to an institution. This overemphasis on religion and strict biblical interpretation is a byproduct of religion instilled by european colonizers whether in Africa or the diaspora and I think many blacks have resorted to it in moments of dispair and hopelessness to get them through adversity. I’ve been to some black churches (a real progressive one in NJ) and have left feeling good, upbeat and optomistic — those feelings are good and we all need them. However, although the church has been useful in some instances, I think it’s also been detrimental (all the Sodom Gomorrah stuff and putting weight on an afterlife rather than the here and now). I wasn’t raised in a really religious family, I went to Sunday School as a child but it was really just to inculcate me with morals/values. This is just conjecture, but I think that the fervent homophobia in places in Africa and the Carribbean (the island I am partly from is one of the less homophobic ones) as well as Latin/Central America is partly attributable to men of those cultures having a narrow view of masculinity and what it means to be a man. Being already oppressed on various levels in these countries, they find it anathema that a man would want to “submit” or supposedly be “emasculated”, and relinquish male privilege and take on a “female role”. Moreover, not sure if you know this but black male slaves (adults and boys) were raped by white men during slavery in order to instill a sense of order, docility and humility rather than there being any homosexual intent/desire or, even warped love. We often only talk about the rape of black women during slavery. There’s a quote in some film I saw where some black nationalist excoriates James Baldwin (a phenomenal man) for “letting the white man fuck you literally” and being consumed with that rather than all the stellar works he wrote and how he tried to deal with issues still relevant to today. This is part and parcel and intertwined with some of the retrogade and limited and distorted views some blacks have over homosexuality. It’s one of their hangups just as your hangup is taking issue with anyone who says anything about white or white culture as being indicative of hating white people.
Buenos Noches, Afro
Why Church Needs Therapy
Also for the older generation blacks who went through jim crow (I was born in the 70s) and witnessed lynchings, fire hoses, voter intimidation, etc., they find it difficult to relate to affluent gays who seemingly have nice “material” charmed exterior lives and don’t witness or identify with the discrimination we strongly feel on a visceral hard core level. This goes to perception and education and I think the MSM, and gay media to a lesser extent, has been complicit in showing a one dimensional aspect of gay life; Queer Eye or hedonistic gay men at circuit parties or the Pride Parade having a ball and lots of anal and oral sex and not showing modesty. I saw a documentary about the Daughters of Billitis (sp?) and it was this white woman (a librarian I think) and a white man (a shrink I think) who started protesting in the 60s and their strategy was to be as plain/regular as possible in order to show that we were very similar to straights, at least externally. They fought for us to have the freedom to exhibit self-expression. Yes, circuit parties and queer eye are part of gay life but there is so much more in our community just as rap music is merely one aspect of black culture.
Mr C
Please don’t answer that church chick. He is so angry about Hillary not making the final and most precious acheivement n her career. He is about to blow up.
LEAVE HER IN THE CORNER WHERE SHE BELONGS!
hisurfer
This bugs on so many levels it’s hard to count. First, this is a church, theoretically a sacred space, and it seems sacrilegious to mock your political opponents from the pulpit. Second, he’s white and Catholic, and yet he sounds like he’s trying to imitate a southern black preacher … his act is one step away from being black-face. Finally, his reasoning, like Wright’s is flawed. He takes legitimate points and presents them in a simplistic and inflammatory way. I can’t see what this will solve except to make people angry.
Seriously – watching a white man, pretending to be a black man, doing an imitation of a white man, is not any way to further the dialogue.
hisurfer
I’m sorry, that should read “imitation of a white woman.”
CHURCHILL-Y
“Homosexuality is a sickness, just as are baby-rape or wanting to become head of General Motors.â€- James baldwin.
http://www.queerty.com/reading-james-baldwins-anti-gay-gay-politics-20070802/
CHURCHILL-Y
That is a “phenomenal man” to you Afro, no surprise. Instead of admiring as I do someone who your community disregarded during his lifetime and still do. And someone who I as a Gay man feel honored by his life in general and saddened by the possibilities of what more he would’ve accomplished had he not had to put up with the injustices of his time and of his own ethnic community. I’m talking about Mr. Bayard Rustin one of my personal heroes.
For those who don’t know him start here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayard_Rustin
CHURCHILL-Y
But I don’t expect any of the sort from you. I’m tired of you and I never seeing eye to eye.
You wish to remain making excuses for black people and their hatred of us Gay folks even though that also includes you. By the way stop spouting the myth that you probably heard from your preacher about Gay people being wealthy and with expendable income. I’m a fine example of that not being true as I’m practically on the economic bottom, of how totally B.S that argument used against us to justify not wanting to unite with us for common decency an equality is. And so are most of the Gay people I know. As for your other usual rants, I’m just going to leave you with one though; There comes a time when in order to progress into the future one most let go of the past and move forward and stop pointing fingers at people who did nothing to you or to blacks in general, otherwise you’ll end up consumed in your own resentment and it will eventually turn into other more obscure feelings. I think the black community has already started on that destructful path of no return and we’re beginning to see it. I hope you find peace Afroguapo and even though I don’t know you and I know you’re incapable of feeling the same, I really meant what I told you in the previous posts.
Ciao.
Afroguapo
Hisurfer, I am totally with you on this one. One of the reasons why I liked Kucinich was his authenticity and not being a chameleon. BHO will resort to a down-home inflection although he was raised in Hawaii, Kansas and Indonesia, HRC will talk about her pa and sound like a vague Southern belle when she was raised in PA and went to Wellesley, Bush will sound like a cowboy on the frontier when he went to Exeter, Yale and HBS. It’s utterly fake. I think I read once that Bush beat Kerry in part because people found Bush relatable and would want to or could see themselves sitting down for a beer with him. I don’t want to have a beer with my president and want her/him to be a shrewd intellectual, want to be awestruck by her/him and could care less if his/her speech is to the manner born. So yes, absolutely concur that this pastor’s cadence or style is put on. Check out this woman. I woke up early one morning and she was on tv and had the mannerisms of a stereotypical southern black woman. If she was raised around blacks in the South, then it might be believable so who knows. http://www.paulawhite.org/
Church:
Are you honestly for real and not effecting a persona or caricature? The quote you cited is from Eldridge Cleaver so it was incorrect to attribute it to James Baldwin. Yes Bayard Rustin was phenomenal as well. I saw Logo’s documentary, Brother Outsider. I wasn’t referring to black pastors referring to disposable income/wealth of gay men, but rather popular culture seemingly playing up this side. In one of the queerty threads about a black woman who worked at a university in Ohio, she cited in her “argument” the wealth/prosperity of homosexuals versus straights. This comes from things like Queer Eye which makes us seem like a bunch of well-heeled bon vivants swilling cosmos (although that is me to some extent but not ALL of me). You’re being on the “economic bottom” is not a slice of gay life that straight people see (virtually invisible) much in the same way that white people don’t always see the varied aspects of black life. I am pointing figures at no one, but like Noah, I don’t have my head in the sand and don’t expect Queerty readers to have theirs in the sand either. The one thing I do agree with you on is that we’re polar opposites on a multitude of levels so let’s just agree to disagree because at this point, you’ve demonstrated you’re bereft of showing any reason, cogent analysis or civility. Hasta luego, Afro
Afroguapo
fingers, too many cosmos last night.
CHURCHILL-Y
Afro:
James Baldwin a man who in order to be in the good graces of the black community chose to berate homosexuals and distance himself from his own sexual identity. Sounds like a phenomenal man to imitate indeed. Everyone knows where you come from when you bring up popular culture(aka Queer as Folk)to justify the homophobic/hypocritical behavior in black culture, because if someone has been at the end of the receiving stick it makes total sense that once they have moved from that spot they start to behave in the same manner of those who kept them there and blame and scapegoat others who they perceive as wealthy or immoral, which ever best suits them at the time they are promoting their hateful views. But that of course is fine with someone like you who looks up to someone like Baldwin, as it’s also fine with most black Gay men. Next time you bring up the Gay popular culture being portrayed on the media argument to justify the hate towards us in your ethnic community please cite Noah’s Arc also.
You most definitely don’t have your “head in the sand” you Afro are well seated in your high horse and have chosen to view only those on your same level(those with your same skin color) and label everyone who doesn’t fall in that category and who unlike Pfleger are not willing to pander to blacks on a –I’m to blame for your anger tirade– as devoid of reason and as you so eloquently put it in your heading responses to me, in need of therapy. Because in your eyes the behavior of your homophobes and racist are somebody else’s fault, the product of past injustices and indoctrination and not of a group of people(blacks) who have made a clear choice to head down that path.
que vaya con Dios y encuentre paz y razonamiento verdadero.
ICH LIEBE DICH
Afroguapo
Churchill:
“James Baldwin a man who in order to be in the good graces of the black community chose to berate homosexuals”??? He wrote Giovanni’s Room for Christ’s sake and while perhaps conflicted or overly private about his sexuality, given the time it makes sense as most homosexuals of all colors were back then. I think again you’re getting him confused with Eldridge Cleaver who was the one berating homosexuals, not Baldwin –the quote was Cleaver. You resort to knee jerk reactions rather than really trying to comprehend what I am saying. I am not an advocate of most of these megapastors, black or white, as I find them to be self-serving, vainglorious and oppressive with some of their indoctrination. McClurkin I find to be an incontrovertible pathetic closet case, Meeks a hatemonger, TD Jakes a profiteer and charlatan, Hagee a rube and dunce, Falwell hateful and not nearly Christ like, Haggard the same as McClurkin, and that other telegenic white one (the younger one) whose name I can’t recall is another hot mess. I was however trying to give you background as to why SOME blacks (esp. the older ones who were adults pre 1970) don’t relate to or understand homosexuals solely based on what they see in the media. That is an older traditional church-going conservative demographic much like most of white middle America (the ones who voted for Bush twice). And this narrow view or ignorant view of gays is not the exclusive province of blacks, look at China, the Middle East, Poland, Latin America, etc. Sorry if my posts upset your sensibilities that it sends you in a tizzy and on the verge of apoplexy, but I am trying to convey plausible reasons regarding things you simply don’t understand or don’t want to. That you somehow infer from my writings that I have “hatred for proud white gay men” because I write things contrary to your views strains credulity and doesn’t even dignify a response. My only advice to you is that you read what EVERYONE has to say on here, breath deeply, relax and try to have a real dialogue than trying to go for the jugular. Bill Perdue was 100% right, this democratic party is a cesspoll of bigotry and internecine conflict although we all essentially want the same thing — a better life for those marginalized for various reasons. Adios, Afro
hisurfer
I don’t read Ch***’s comments anymore – there’s not much point – but: take your hands off James Baldwin now! He seems to be ignored all too often in the Black Lit and Queer Lit canons, yet I think he ought to be central to each. He took American literature to a place it’s never been before, and to a place most of the US is still a long ways from reaching.
JamesR
I have had a lot of trouble posting this, I hope it does not show double – My eyes have gone all fuzzy reading most of this thread, but something caught my eye, quoted by CHURCHILL-Y purportedly by James Baldwin. I followed the link kindly provided and found indeed it was NOT SAID BY JAMES BALDWIN but by a critic to whom he then responded. Perhaps that was the reason that quote was posted, I cannot tell. Honestly this thread seems to have devolved into a personal discussion of racism and ‘hate’ yet the name “James Baldwin” caught my eye and I had to investigate.
CHURCHILL-Y posted<>
The link is here:http://www.queerty.com/reading-james-baldwins-anti-gay-gay-politics-20070802/ and it seems to refer to a Baldwin critic, Eldridge Cleaver in ‘Soul on Ice:’ “Homosexuality is a sickness, just as are baby-rape or wanting to become head of General Motors.”
To which Baldwin replied in an essay ‘No Name in the Street:’ “I felt that he [Cleaver] used my public reputation against me both naively and unjustly, and I also felt that I was confused in his mind with the unutterable debasement of the male—with all those faggots, punks, and sissies, the sight and sound of whom, in prison, must have made him vomit more than once.” The context of the quote in the post is that it was a timid response, for today and even perhaps then.
And so on, with much literary context provided. Very informative and hystorical, Thankyouverymuch Queerty.
All this made me post, but how that I have I must add that as per the original topic I find the preacher’s comments way more ‘Mock’ and ‘Derision’ and ‘Ridicule of Honor’ more than “Hate.” Hate is different. At least to me. Of course it was in context wildly inappropriate and unwise for him to do though I must note the audience may not have the problem with his percieved affectations than all of us here in YouTubeLand who are generally isolated at a computer somewhere, looking through a crappy peephole, voyeurs.
But in honor of all that – I offer the Priest du jour, via YouTube. MUCH more unbelievable and inappropriate and really, really, disturbing. [I don;t think one has to have a ‘side’ picked politically to find this wildly WILDLY WRONG.] Monsignor Jim Lisante, making hash of an invocation at a Republican Party dinner last night in New York: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHrW3mV90ho Enjoy.
RPCV
Since when was church a place to spew political venom and racial hatred? Seems these Black Liberation theologians/followers need to be watched by the FBI as dangerous to our national security.
No wonder there’s so much violence, despair, and death in the black community; with all those Black Liberation church-goers leaving the sacred confines of a “place of worship” full of hatred, resentment and retaliation, they’re helping me prove my point on other posts that Blacks=Violence=Hatred=Death. There is absolutely no other plausible explanation for the disaaster of the black community at large. Period.
RPCV
OOps, please edit the last paragraph above to read: Blacks=Violence=Hatred=Crime=Death. I regret the error.
CHURCHILL-Y
“The word gay has always rubbed me the wrong way. I never understood exactly what is meant by it. I don’t want to sound distant or patronizing because I don’t really feel that. I simply feel it’s a world that has very little to do with me, with where I did my growing up. I was never at home in it. Even in my early years in the Village, what I saw of that world absolutely frightened me, bewildered me. I didn’t understand the necessity of all the role playing. And in a way I still don’t.” – James Baldwin , 1984 the village voice.
Sounds just like afro.
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RPCV
Nice quote, C—Y. With all the meth and other drug and non-drug related problems impacting the “gay” community the least applicable word to describe the gay community is “gay.” Most, if not all, gays are miserable and fatigued from years of lying, covering up, experiencing ridicule, and myriad other realities. Collectively, we should rename our community as Sad, not Gay. Just a thought……..
JamesR
Your use of out of context quotes and misquoted quotes from James Baldwin to beat yourselves up is an Art Crime, and frankly quite painful to anyone else who may be still reading this thread.
Just so you know.
And, FYI: You are posing on QUEERTY.COM: You are gay. Get over it.
Afroguapo
Church:
Please take note of the measured poise and equanimity of JamesR, it really will do you and all of us some good. It’s unfortunate that we got off topic as usual and yes, I definitely played a hand in this albeit unintentionally. This was about Pfegler after all, debating white privelege, whether Pfegler’s comments were necessarily hateful or rather mocking/ridiculing like James said and the conversation ended up with you trying to cast James Baldwin as a self loathing gay man and by extension, me as well — an accusation you’ve made repeatedly. Your obsession with all things black and the notion that ALL blacks hate gays virulently and there is some crisis solely in this community is pathological. Charley, a poster on here, was saved by a black man from the hompophobic attacks of other white navy men. Last I checked, Matthew Shepherd’s killers were white, Jeffrey Dahmer was white, the killers in Boys Don’t Cry were white. It’s clearly evident that the lgbt community is exceedingly diverse (the most diverse of any demographic) given all the races, socio-economic classes, cultures, women, men, intersex/transgender that comprise it so there’s not going to be a monolithic view. Also, perhaps it’s just me, but just like I didn’t find Pfegler’s statements reprehensible (inappropriate yes being in a church), I don’t find the quote purportedly from Baldwin offensive either in that we approach our shared orientation from various perspectives and sensibilities. Perhaps James felt he didn’t fit in.
CHURCHILL-Y
Afro:
I can assure you I’m nothing but measured in my responses to your hypocritical writings but if you consider me calling you on them as somehow pathological then so be it. I as everyone else who are familiar with your postings know you find nothing reprehensible in what’s spewed from the pulpit of that church, probably the same venom that’s spewed in yours. As for James Baldwin of course, I just feel sorry for you because I think you would’ve enjoyed living in his era and having experience his same “approach” which you seem to romanticize. Keep your chin up on your saddle and your sight on the past.
사랑해요
Afroguapo
Querida Church:
There’s really no need to lie or backpedal now. Anyone who has seen your writings knows full well that your style is to become bellicose or to just not make any sense and ramble. I am not affiliated with any church. As I’ve said previously, I visit two churches from time to time, a gay friendly Episcopalian predominantly white one and a black Baptist one. And there’s no venom at either one. I’ve also gone on record that I find many of these pastors indefensible, namely, Meeks and Hutcherson. The only pastors I’ve tried to add context and nuance to — because you are so blinded in your rage/quest for the black boogeyman out for gays — have been Wright (the 9/11 speech based on Ambassador Peck’s writings) and Pfegler. Just as some blacks have the lasting effects of slavery in their psyches, it is utterly clear that it has also left an indelible legacy on whites, even the ones on queerty who profess or perceive themselves to be enlightened, based on what’s been written by some. As someone else said in another thread, the fixation on black pastors and their congregations is indeed interesting when juxtaposed with the fact that you have numerous white pastors who are not gay friendly at all and that much of the violence/murder of LGBT in the news has been at the hands of white people. I have no idea how old you are but, for future reference, at least if you are going to post a quote, (a) have some context to it and (b) be precise and actually attribute it to the correct person; to do otherwise is simply shoddy and leads to making other readers misinformed and ignorant. Also, in looking at Baldwin’s quote, it sounds vaguely reminscent of many men (of all nationalities/races) who post on internet sites or newspaper classifieds for men who say “straight acting, appearing guy seeking similar NOT into the scene or who doesn’t relate to the scene” or other gays who find men at Southern Decadence or Folsom Street fairs giving golden showers and bjs in the street to be low-class. While this may appear on its face to be “homophobic” to you in one not endorsing “gay life” (whatever that is given the range) unequivocally, one size simply does not fit all in the gay community. Also, what is your reason for posting in the assorted languages? For me, I pepper my sign-offs sometimes with Spanish phrases because part of my family derives from Central America (being of Afro-latino descent). Finally, I realize you’re not willing to join me up on my saddle for reasons only known to you. While the truth hurts sometimes, it can also set you free and I’ve only tried to impart some insights and perspectives of which you seemed to be unaware. Judging from the record of your writings and the totality of the circumstances, I’ll kindly dispense with accepting any pity you purportedly have for me. My hope for you however is that you seriously interrogate some of your feelings and try to get to know many different types of people (racially, etc.) to appreciate diverse viewpoints. Siempre, Afro
CHURCHILL-Y
I hope your feminizing of me through the use of the term “Querida” makes you feel more
black/masculine Afroguapo.
“gays who find men at Southern Decadence or Folsom Street fairs giving golden showers and bjs in the street to be low-class.”
Is that your view of gay people Afro? No wonder you feel the way that you do. I as others who have posted here have no interest in what type of church you attend or not, I only take issue when you and others of your persuasion try to bring those views into government and impose it on us.
So now that you have stated for the first time here that you find “these pastors indefensible” what are you going to do? Nothing. Look the other way. Pretend they don’t exist and aren’t active members in the Obama camp and not mere supporters as you. Your “insights and perspectives” are ones only of convenience but unlike you and others in your camp I wouldn’t want anyone to forbid you from making them because I think they provide a much needed insight into the mindset of the black community.
Do you support this Afro?:
http://www.queerty.com/gay-democrats-must-move-beyond-impotent-delegate-goals-20080514
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/13/17299/3193
is it fair to you and are you willing to look the other way just because they are of your same race?
P.S. What is it that baffles you about my sign offs to you. Don’t you know what they say? Or is it that you can’t grasp the concept? In honor of your “Afro-latino”(an oxymoron term) descent, I’m going to write it in the only romance language spoken in Central America. Let go of your resentment and blind hatred because, TE AMO.
I know you are incapable of feeling the same.