QUESTION: Should The LGBT Community Take On Battles Like Immigration Reform?

In the past few weeks, we’ve received numerous press releases from major LGBT advocacy groups, informing us of their involvement in traditionally non-gay issues such as Palestinian rights, immigration reform, the Trayvon Martin shooting, reproductive rights and the New York City Police Department’s stop-and-frisk law.

Of course, as members of the larger society we’re as affected as anyone else by global issues. But, as some have posited, should we stay out of other people’s fights and focus on our own? Is taking sides on how to tackle global warming or ease the situation in Israel potentially splintering our community even further than it is?

Should the LGBT community get involved in other struggles?

Or do we have an obligation to take a stand against injustice and inequality? Once upon a time, it would have been easy to say other groups weren’t standing with us, so we had no obligation to stand with them. But more and more, as the NAACP and major labor-union groups make clear statements of solidarity, that position is becoming less tenable.

But we’re not gonna make the call—we’re asking you. Say it loud, say it proud, in the comments section.

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  • Lefty

    Yes, of course.

  • KeithMcD

    I don’t see how immigration reform isn’t an LGBT issue. As my boyfriend is a Chinese citizen and here in the US with an F-1 student visa, I have no ability to keep him here at all once he graduates from his degree thanks to DOMA and immigration issues. We also do not getting married as it risks his F-1 visa status as it is a clear intention to stay in the US and not return to his home country.

    So yes, I absolutely see immigration reform as an LGBT issue.

  • Jen


    I am British. My wife is American. We live in London, UK. She has wanted to come back to the US to live for a while now, but because immigration is federal we can’t move. She can, I can’t unless I get a full-time job in the State she has hers, as I don’t qualify as a legal spouse (even though here I am). I’m a screenwriter so that’s not an option. Her hetero colleagues on the other hand can move their spouse and children. That’s unfair and unequal – and in the end unconstitutional and frankly against any image I have of the USA – hand of the free, etc.

    As a people seen as unequal we should stand against any and all inequalities.

  • Int'l

    As a queer person of color, yes. Racism is a huge issue in US LGBT communities, and as such it is a queer issue… as are all the others. Down with Pinkwashing.

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @Jen: Uh, that’s actually a gay marriage issue. Your problems can be solved without touching the immigration laws, by achieving marriage equality.

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @Int’l: So *everything* is a queer issue? Way to expand a definition into meaninglessness.

  • Jen

    @Making up stuff is fun!: Immigration is the issue – regardless of marriage equality actually. Federal marriage equality will take a heck of a longer time to come, than the US accepting re-entry of their OWN citizens with their legal spouses.

  • J dub

    Yes. Everyone should get involved in all social rights issues. We are all affected by the dehumanizing of populations of people. Environmental problems are tied with health and the ability to live a full and satisfying life. These nontraditional gay causes affect the LGBT community. I feel the Queer community should get involved, even if the only reason is because LGBT people can be found everywhere.

  • Spike

    What a stupid question. Of course! Last I checked, the LGBT community reflects diversity, diversity reflects all races, here in the US, legal and illegal. There should be no lines drawn between groups when it comes to supporting human dignity and equality.

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @Jen: Clearly you’re not getting it. If you were married to an American man, you’d have no trouble getting in. If marriage equality is achieved, and you attain the same rights as a married straight couple, you’ll be able to move to the US. Immigration law isn’t what’s keeping you in the UK.

  • Robbie

    yes. if non-gay social inequality groups are endorsing marriage equality, the LGBT community should stand up for non-gay social issues. it’s just the right thing to do.

  • sweetbrandigirl2004

    ABSOLUTELY NOT ! We have enough fish of our own to fry. Immigration has ZERO to do with LGBT equality, yes I known there are some people who are being deported who are gay ,but the number is few and doesn’t warrant LGBT communities involvement.

  • Nicholas

    1) If you want anyone who is not queer to give a sh1t about queer issues, then you have to give a sh1t about issues that affect people who aren’t queer.

    2) Queer people are, at best, somewhere between 5 and 10% of the population. We will never be able to sway a majority with those numbers, but if we join forces with groups that experience different kinds of marginalization from the broader culture than homophobia/transphobia alone (immigrants, people of colour, religious minorities, women, the poor, etc), then we become a collective majority that cannot be swayed into protecting the privilege of the few.

    3) Queer people exist in every human community, which means that any social injustice impacts a certain subset of the members of our community.

    Given these points, I think it’s a no-brainer. We either stand in solidarity with other oppressed groups, or we are divided and conquered with them. Our respective fates are bound together no matter what we do.

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @Robbie: So if NAMBLA starts supporting gay marriage, we should return the favor? Great logic.

  • Roger Rabbit


    I can’t get married to my boyfriend and because of this I can’t bring my boyfriend here from Colombia to the USA. DOMA is linked directly to Immigration Reform because of this inequality.

    And because many people are persecuted for being gay, Immigration Reform should allow being gay a reasonable reason to request asylum from their countries, even if their countries are not considered at high risk. Mexico is a good example. Although their courts continue to change things slowly, they are still 40-50 years behind us. If their people are out at all they won’t be getting any jobs or healthcare. And if they are discovered they still run the risk of torture and death just for being gay, due to the highly homophobic attitudes of the people in the country.

    So YES, Immigration Reform is another one of our issues as long as it discriminates against gay couples and gay persecuted people.

  • NO

    No, let them fight for their own cause. I don’t see the people fighting for immigration reform fighting for LGBT causes, so let them deal with their own problem.

  • Nicholas

    @Making up stuff is fun!: NAMBLA isn’t experiencing unjust discrimination. They explicitly want to rape kids (they call that “love,” but whatever); society is justified in protecting the children they seek to harm; therefore it isn’t “oppressing” or “marginalizing” pedophiles. If we stand for the rights of innocents who are unjustly harmed (like women, the poor, ethnic and religious minorities) then we also must stand for the rights of innocent children against those who would harm them.

  • NO

    I forgot to add that a lot of these immigrants (especially the ones from Mexico) have strong religious beliefs and don’t believe in gay rights, so think twice before you think immigration reform is so great.

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @Roger Rabbit: Another one who doesn’t get it: If marriage equality is attained, you can marry and bring your BF over without a single change in the current immigration law. So no, DOMA is not directly linked to immigration reform. It has an effect on immigration, which is not the same thing.

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @Nicholas: Eh, plenty of people think illegal immigrants aren’t unjustly discriminated either; that their very presence in this country is a violation of the law (which, duh, it is). So…

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @NO: I agree. It’s so much nicer when we’re being oppressed by WHITE religious nuts.

  • Some Random Guy

    “Immigration reform” is a vague term that has various meanings to various groups.

    I suspect what it generally means in the gay male “community” (as opposed to the “LGBT community”) is: the liberals of the 1% who clamor for more Latino cleaning boys and pool boys, but who don’t want to pay them much.

    The current set-up doesn’t suit the rich gays, I’m guessing, because Obama’s ICE has been deporting a lot of the illegal cleaning boys and pool cleaners (quite properly, in most Obama voters’ opinions). This naturally drives up the wages of those remaining, so the rich gays fume that Something Must Be Done.

    See the recent debate over Matthew Iglesias’ pompous, self-righteous screed in Slate, where he whined about how the “creative class” NEEDS cheap maids and cleaners in order to free up their precious time. And of course, the liberals of the 1% (or at least, the upper 15%?) love to call working-class whites who aren’t college graduates, “[email protected] cists.” This is all part of why the Democratic Party and unions have been falling apart since the ’70s.

  • Wow

    We aren’t sheep. We shouldn’t be herded to ’causes’. We might have LGBT in common, but it does not mean we agree on everything else.

    There are obvious benefits to quid pro quo politics, but there is a huge risk of drowning our message.

  • The Real Mike in Asheville

    Ask 100 people, get 100 answers!

    There is no cut-and-dry solution: immigration reform is certainly an issue for those with boyfriends/girlfriends/partners/spouses from other countries. Personally, though I am a way gay, my interest in immigration reform as an American of 4 immigrant grandparents who believes that in a mostly open border policy.

    Umbrellas and rainbows have contraindicated issues and sides. The Israeli-Palestinian battle is a great example: there are the Jewish and their supporters who rightly recognize that they are under threat by terrorist elements of the Palestinians AND there are the Palestinians and their supporters who rightly recognize that they are essentially under an Israeli enforce apartheid against them. And, of course, there are gays and lesbians who, as members of either the Jewish and Palestinian communities and/or their respective supporters, who fight that fight on the LGBT battlefield.

    Fortunately it did not last very long, but in the moment that HIV/AIDS raised its ugly head, for a good two solid years, those early HIV/AIDS awareness advocates, while not booed, received extremely cold shoulders from SF Pride Parade attendees — 1983-84.

    Yeah, no easy answer here.

  • Kev C

    I don’t like being co-opted by politcal actors from any side. Usually it’s the left trying to co-opt gays. A good example is the OWS/ACTUP union. What does protesting Wall St. have to do with ending AIDS? Buy a bucket of chicken and get a free kitten!

  • Avenger

    No. Everybody needs to tend to their own business. We’re not some big collective minority community, allied with each other to overthrow the strong arm of ‘The Man.’

    Whenever the gay community calls itself trying to “stand in solidarity” with other communities experiencing non-gay issues, it usually seems phony…like the gay community is trying to earn “cool points,” or something.

    Stop being fake.

    You don’t give a shit about immigration, you don’t give a shit about laws that threaten a woman’s right to have an abortion, you don’t give a shit about wheelchair discrimination and you don’t give a shit about Trayvon Martin. All you want is same sex marriage and think that if you pretend to care about these other non-gay social issues then the people who’re affected by them will in turn do you a solid and vote in favor of it the next time they head to the polls in a state that is voting on whether or not to allow it. All you want to do is create some bogus coalition of support that won’t mean anything after you get what you want.

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @Avenger: Haleluyah! Preach on, my friend!

    All these phonies with their “solidarity,” and their “realization of the fact that their own political agenda is strengthened if they stand together with other minorities,” and their “basic understanding of the way politics work in America.”

    Fake-ass losers.

  • The Village Elder

    It is our moral responsibility to help protect any person or group of people who are being singled out for abuse. US immigration law needs to be reformed because it does abuse and harms people. Therefore we as a gay culture as well as us as gay individuals should be concerned. I completely understand that we need limits on who and how many people can move into the US. Thoses limits need to be based on fairness not skin color. It just seems to make sense to me that we would care about immigration reform.

    If evangelicos and rightwing politicos were being abused and harm I would offer care to them also despite my distaste for their beliefs.

  • Daez

    Its called bridging. It is part of framing. Both terms are simply used to mean that the more we link causes together the more we can get in donations and support for all of the causes linked together.

    I can see all of these issues affecting the community, and therefore, we are well in our rights to work on all of them together. Doing so actually helps to strengthen our capital in both a non-tangible and tangible way.

  • Clockwork

    It’s too late for the GLBT organizations. They are already in the tank for everything from health care, stimulus spending, to Trevon Martin.

    The GLBT orgs have become nothing more than cheerleaders for every far left policy they can find.

  • KyleW

    Absolutely not! By all means raise our collective voice on issues that affect our specific rights as gay people, but we don’t add credibility to the the cause of others by adding our voice, but in voicing our opinions as a group on other issues, we certainly give the public even more reasons to polarise against us. At the moment, we only need to overcome a single demographic – homophobes. The last thing we need is to have to overcome the explicit objections of 50 more demographics, (republicans, democrats, blacks/whites/jews, pro/anti immigration, anti/pro lifers, feminists, etc, etc), . The battle is far from won, and it’s hard enough without adding more enemies.

    If gay people want to be political in other areas, they are more valuable doing it individually, as human beings or citizens, then collectively as LGBT. Also, who the hell in the gay leadership decides how I feel about Palestine, or whatever?!

  • Clockwork

    Actually they are not fake, that are sincere in caring about the issues, except only from a Democratic or Progressive leftist ideology.

  • KyleW

    @The Village Elder: And who gets to decide where I stand on these issues – you? Dan Savage? Larry Brinkin?

    I’m not saying we should not have opinions, or express and act upon them, but to presume that anyone speaking for us has the right to decide where we ALL stand on these diverse issues, is as nonsensical as saying “all atheists support Palestine”, or “all women are pro-choice”.

    Each of us should act individually according to our values and our conscience.

  • Alan down in Florida

    @Avenger: “We’re not some big collective minority community, allied with each other to overthrow the strong arm of ‘The Man.’”

    Guess what – that is exactly what America is today. America has always been a nation of immigrants (except of course for our indigenous communities) only now in 2012, for the first time, the various minority communities combined actually comprise the majority. In addition in 2011 more minority group babies than white babies were born in America.

    This reality has created an American version of apartheid in which the white heterosexual Christian patriarchy rules the rest of us. The realization that this apartheid is doomed to crumble because of demographic changes in American society has the Republican/Conservative portion of the populace terrified. The disrespectful treatment of President Obama comes from the fact that he is the living embodiment of the change that is coming to America. And that is why billionaires, many under the cover of anonymity, are willing to spend more money than the 99% will earn in their lifetimes to buy the elections that they would not win on their own merits.

    We’re all in this together – and this is life.

  • hamoboy

    Gay rights are straight rights are women’s rights are men’s rights are disabled rights are workers rights are human rights. I don’t think LGBT “leadership” whoever these people are, should speak for the community and jump on these other bandwagons. But I would hope that people like LGBTs, who have felt the lash of bigotry and intolerance because of one aspect of their lives, would have more compassion and empathy for the disenfranchised and unempowered of any stripe or creed, than the white heterosexual majority. Quite a few commenters that frequent this site seem like horrible people, whose only gap in bigotry is homophobia; and they aren’t homophobic only because THEY are homosexual themselves. Disappointing really.

  • Clockwork

    Solid comment!

  • KyleW

    @hamoboy: Spot on.

  • hamoboy

    @Clockwork & KyleW: Oh stop I’m blushing… :) But seriously, What goes on in people like “making stuff up is fun” and his ilk’s heads? When you read their sickening comments, you just know that if they were born straight they’d be community leaders in their own local Westboro style churches.

  • The Village Elder

    @KyleW: I see and understand your point Kyle but the question asked was about whether the “Gay Community” Should support immigration reform. As much as there is such a thing as a gay community I think we should support immigration rights. I understand and respect your right to disagree with that viewpoint. I think its probably understood that a community does necessarily speak for 100% of its members.

    In a subset of communities that I live in I’m part of a community of rural people. That rural community takes a stand on various issues that I don’t agree with. It doesn’t invalidate my opinion or remove me from the community. It just means I’m in a minority in that community.

  • KyleW

    @The Village Elder: I appreciate what you are saying also, but if your community is speaking on issues that are not related to their specific interest AS A COMMUNITY, by what right do they do so? It’s not as though the leaders of the gay community are elected. Personally I find Dan Savage a shameless self-promoter, and I disagree with his tone and tactics on many issues. I wouldn’t want this man to have carte blanche to speak for me on unrelated political issues. I don’t even agree with all he says on gay issues!

    And just suppose, we had allowed Brinkin to speak for us on issues such as women’s rights – now that cause would be tainted by his association. Not a very powerful argument as it could be applied to anyone, but more an illustration of our need for caution in allowing people to become our mouthpieces.

  • Lefty

    @hamoboy: Yes, great comment. Spot on.
    I think one or two other commentors here – judging by the amount of comments they’ve already left – seem slightly obsessed with the notion that gay people should feel empathy for and an affinity with other marginalised sections of societies and would feel it was the right thing to do to challenge injustice and prejudice, even if the group they’re fighting for isn’t exclusively or largely gay – as was said upthread, gay people are everywhere and injustice affects us all.

  • amos

    Yes of course we should be involved in immigration reform… there are LGBT people in our community who’s lives will be impacted by immigration reform… right now, an American does not have any rights to sponsor their foreign partner for a green card due to DOMA and the Uniting American Families Act or Reuniting Families Act (LGBT immigration bill) will change that! People seeking asylum due to sexual orientation also need immigration reform as we need to remove the One Year Bar from immigration laws!

    So in short, YES YES YES… we should all care about immigration reform!

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @hamoboy: Yeah. I pointed out the logical faults in a couple of posters’ line of reasoning. I’m right up there with Stalin and Pol Pot.

  • Oh well

    Getting involved in other social issues is not only morally the right thing to do, but it also good for our own causes. The more friends we make, the more people we influence.

  • Kev C

    @amos: We also need to keep immigrants from homophobic countries from entering into the USA.

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @Kev C: So … southerners shouldn’t cross the Mason-Dixon line?

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @Kev C: We’re pretty homophobic when compared to Canada or the Netherlands.

    Guess they should ban us from going there …

  • Kev C

    @Making up stuff is fun!: Gays in Denmark used to enjoy safety and freedom, but increasing immigration saw a huge rise in violence against gays. You may mock and belittle gay victims of violence because your pro-immmigration allies hate gays.

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @Kev C: Right. Everyone knows what a hell ***Denmark*** is for gay people.

  • Kev C

    @Making up stuff is fun!: Everyone remembers when Denmark was free from islamic extremists. A country with a reputation of supporting gays suddenly becomes a country dangerous for gays. Truth.

  • Lefty

    @Avenger: What about straight people – or straight allies, etc who help in the fight for gay equality?
    Should they stop and just “look after their own”?
    Are they being fake?

  • Lefty

    @Making up stuff is fun!: At least they’ve have expressed a considered opinion on the subject and explained their reasons.
    You seem to be the highest poster in this comments thread and have offered nothing beyond limp attempts at mockery and a considerable amount of hostility towards the idea that some gay people (or the vast majority, if the comments so far are anything to go by) support the idea of allying ourselves with other victims of discrimination, prejudice and injustice.
    Is it specifically the immigration thing that gets your panties in a twist, I wonder?
    Or do you just think gay people should only ally themselves with groups full of gay people fighting for strictly gay causes.
    And any other fight that only affects a few gay people – well, screw those few gay people?
    Especially immigrant one?

  • KyleW

    @Lefty: I don’t think it’s a matter of only looking after our own – far from it. Each of us individually should act according to our own conscence. However, for everyone in favour of a “civil right”, there is another against it, and whilst we might like to generalise that generally it is the right wing, or the religious who are against what we consider to be civil liberties, on individual issues, especially ones subject to morally sincere disagreement as Palestine or abortion rights, all we do is risk alienating those who would otherwise be amenable or indifferent to our fight.

    It may be argued that we also stand to win allies that we may otherwise not have had, but I really doubt that our minority voice will be noticed if we help, but human nature being what it is, it will quickly be thrown back in our faces when we collectively stand against people.

    I suppose if one DOES think that we should get involved, we should stick our fingers into EVERY pie simply to raise our profile and court allies? Gays for evolution, gays against book burning, gays for Obamacare, gays against poverty, gays for occupy, gays against sopa, gays against guns, and so on. I’m sure nobody could possibly imagine how that could go wrong…

  • PTBoat

    In my opinion, the issues are separate and, though they affect each other sometimes, they are completely separate issues. Certainly, LGBT people should take on the issue of immigration reform individually, but the actual fight, and feelings, among the community as a whole are widely varied. We spent the past years battling everyone else’s battles at our own expense. It’s time to focus as a group on our own real issues.

  • Clockwork

    Home run!

    When you speak up for every cause, you dilute your own voice;

    When you dilute your own voice, politicians throw you soundbites and bones;

    When you eat soundbites and bones, you loose weight;

    When you loose weight, politicians see you as weak and gullible;

    When politicians see you as weak and gullible, you become irrelevant;

    Don’t become irrelevant, choose your issues carefully and with sincere commitment.

  • KyleW

    @Clockwork: A truly poetic distillation of the dangers sir…

  • Jack

    Two reasons for YES:

    1. United we stand. Republicans have been so successful at denying gay citizens their rights because they divided minorities into separate groups and we allowed it to happen. As minorities, we will never win. As coalitions, we will win. When oppressed people begin to see each other as brothers and sisters, the oppressors will be fucked.

    2. Gay couples are affected by the current, failing immigration policies.

  • UsualPlayers

    If you want to go around saying that you are seeking human rights, then you should be prepared to defend human rights. Unless you are now claiming gay rights aren’t about human rights?

  • UsualPlayers

    ONe of the highest groups of support in California and the US are from Latinos

    Why people here choose to lie is clear. It allows them to justify their bigotry. After all if you can’t make the object of you bigotry into a devil, then the problem is you.

  • UsualPlayers

    Immigration by the way is not justa bout marriage. The issue also comes up in the area of asylum for gays fleeing from attrocities abroad. Only a fucking idiot would not know that.

  • UsualPlayers

    @KyleW: No one cares what you stand for. THis is you ego speaking. The point is do these organizations (Not you) have the right to go support no gay issues for hte purpose of solidarity. You and Mary Chenney can go sit in the corner waiting for the rest of us to do the heavy lifting for the human rights movement

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @UsualPlayers: The right to enter a country illegally is not a human right.

    You understand that much, don’t you?

  • UsualPlayers

    By the way, Kevin C is pushing what is called homonationalism. In Europe the right wingers use homosexuality in some countries to claim t hey aren/t bigots while pushing for draconian measures against immigrant populations
    Its a bait and switch

    I am not bad because I support gay rights while ignoring the fact they are offering up evil in other areas
    Its like the White evangelicals who says they aren’t bad because they are against racism while promoting homophobia

    It doesn’t mean anything unless you are completely incapable of realizing that they are creating a bait and switch

    I am not bad on X therefore you shoul dignore Y

  • UsualPlayers

    Let me add a few more thoughts

    (1) Its quite clear that there are some people here who have no fucking clue about history (I am speaking of Kyle) and others who quite clearly know nothing for example of the interconnections of prior movements in supporting each other. As someone else correctly pointed out- we are 5 to 10 perecent of the population.

    Our movement has relied on movements like the labor movement to support us and get out the votes for us. Its absolutely ignorant history to babble on about doing it alone much less showing a grasp of demographic reality.

    The “dilution” you are talking about only make sense if you are a wing nut speaking of things in terms of “just for me” rather than understanding how you convince people

    You convince people through a notion of fairness that all people are equal. Nate Silver did some research on this

    He found that when you crafted gay rights in the context of equality for all that we win

    In other words the exact opposite of the ignorance on display in some of the comments here

    In fact this is why they rebranded gay marriage as marriage equality

    The realization was that in the US its the notion of equality that matters.
    If you are going to argue for htat- it cant be just for you

  • UsualPlayers

    To the equally ignorant post on immigration- while nation states exist and have some authority on the issue it is well understood that freedom of movement is one of the more basic human rights

    So yes immigration does pose some human rights issues

    Its nuanced and complicated so its probably beyond anything that should be discussed here

  • UsualPlayers

    Another good example of ignorance – just to give one is the early support of trans communities towards supporting and fighting for gay rights although they got nothing out of it

    If you read, one of the people chaining themselves to the fence to shame Obama into ending DADT was trans. This is not unusual. DADT helps gays

    it does nothing for trans issues in the military

    This repeats itself again and again

    The labor movement’s constuency is actually conservative

    It would be in their interest to ignore us

    Yet they dont

    Black groups have nothing to gain by voting for us in orgs like the NAACP

    Yet they do

    If they lived by your bullshit motto we would be fucked as a movement

  • Kev C

    @UsualPlayers: What a load of ish. The lives and safety of LGBTs is not negotable or ignorable just because some flipwig wants to sing Kumbaya with homophobes and terrorists to earn brownie points from Politburo Central.

  • venomous-viper

    There is so much arrogance in this question and it seems very few of the responses were able to see it. The more precise question would have been can GlBT oppression afford to take on and hold the oppression of immigrants and minorities.

    The arrogance comes in with the assumption that there are not MILLIONS of undocumented minorities who are ALSO gay. When looking at it this way it is obvious that immigration and gay rights for MILLIONS are people are interconnected.

    Surely when this question was posed it was speaking to GLBT white folks who were born here and have the option of deciding if they want to get their hands dirty with this issue or not.

  • UsualPlayers

    so the question isn’t whether gays should support other groups and movements on their issues

    its whether we should show some gratitude for folks who have already stuck their necks out for us when they have their own problems to be dealing with rather than what is almost certainly a side or non issue to their movement

    I mean how much of a Narcissist do you have to be to ignore the fact that almost every one of these groups have stuck their hands out to help us when they certainly have every reason to ignore us based on popularity of our cause

    it was their support that help shift the balance

  • hamoboy

    @venomous-viper: Thank you. I had felt that too, but didn’t know how to express it. Privilege privilege privilege.

  • UsualPlayers

    @Kev C: The issue if that you are a hard right winger trying to demonize a particular group and trying to band everyone else to your movement

    The White Evangelicals are your intellectual brothers on this front. Its classic divide and conquer using the “hated group”

    I am sure there is some violence by some immigrants

    I am so sure that not all of it is from the immigrants and none of what you describes is justification for using evil to combat another evil

    The solution is to protect gays against violence not create a category of people toblame for all the worlds problems

    This is classic right wing strategy

    Take the Southern Baptists

    Now that they are trying to divide and conquer using homosexualit

    What do they do- they elect a Black minister who is anti gay

    The whole mind set is NOM strategy 101

    You are no different

    Just a different target group for divide and conquer

  • venomous-viper


    Usual Player I hear what you are saying. But this still implies that somehow the GLBT community is not directly impacted by immigration. Again there are Millions of “illegals” in the US who are gay or lesbian. When looking at it through this lens how GLBT issues not be affected by immigration.

  • JW

    At a certain point in the progress of equality, the LGBT community has to start publicly fighting for others. This is as without it the LGBT community will be perceived as insular. The more acceptance and equality becomes the norm, the more LGBT communities are expected to engage on a wider platform.

    This stage of the fight is something that other minorities have occasionally caught onto too late. The perception of cultural insularity has been a problem for the African-American community that I believe slowed progress down in the 1990s and early 2000s. Unfortunately, there is more progress to be made for both LGBT and racial equality movements. However, the reality is that as the majority begin to accept & embrace us, we have to somewhat ignore the smaller discriminatory population and focus on becoming active contributors to the whole population.

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @UsualPlayers: “Freedom of movement”? BULLSHIT!

    Bullshit to the umpteenth degree.

    Bullshit to the left.

    Bullshit to the right.

    B U L L S H I T ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

    If you really believed in “freedom of movement,” you’d be in favor of open borders. I.e., everyone in the third world, literally every person in every poor country on earth should have the right to come here to the US and settle here.

    If you’re willing to say you agree to that, then you’re insane; and if you’re not, then you’re not really in favor of “freedom of movement.”

  • hamoboy

    Homophobia is generally associated with poverty, ignorance and religiosity. Religiosity itself is often associated with poor ghettoised minority areas, such as with blacks in inner-city slums in the USA. The solution is not to say “All these black people are homophobes! Screw them!”. The solution is to figure out how to improve and educate these people living in these poor areas so they don’t have such erroneous views about a fellow vulnerable minority. Educational and economic empowerment will teach social justice and civics issues better than any billboard can.

  • skzip888

    It’s a bit of a double bind. On one hand, you want LGBT people to feel represented in the community no matter their politics, but, on the other, there are hosts of organizations that went beyond their own platforms to help us.

  • Kev C

    @UsualPlayers: I’m a hardcore INDEPENDENT, you miopic leftard. Independents are the largest political faction in the USA, but you didn’t know that because why?? Progressives need to clean house of their brand homophobes. No more Che Guevara for you, comradeski.

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @hamoboy: Oooh, didn’t take you long to show your racist underside.


  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @hamoboy: Hah! Didn’t take you long to show your ra-cist underside, did it.


  • UsualPlayers

    @venomous-viper: You absolutely right

    I don’t want to underplay the intersection of these issues.

    I was making a broader point bout human rights in general and the fact that there would be no gay movement if other groups had not seen gay rights as a part of human rights

  • hamoboy

    @Making up stuff is fun!: WTF are you talking about? What the fuck have I said that is racist? MUSIF, you have some severely addled comprehension skills if you think I said anything racist.

  • hamoboy

    @Making up stuff is fun!: What are you talking about? Please quote to me what I have said that could be interpreted that way, and explain how it is so.

  • UsualPlayers

    @Making up stuff is fun!: Freedom of movement is only bullshit the the illiterate.


    “Freedom of movement, mobility rights or the right to travel is a human right concept that the constitutions of numerous states respect. It asserts that a citizen of a state in which that citizen is present has the liberty to travel, reside in, and/or work in any part of the state where one pleases within the limits of respect for the liberty and rights of others,[1] and to leave that state and return at any time. Some immigrants’ rights advocates assert that human beings have a fundamental human right to mobility not only within a state but between state”

    I don’t necessary agree with the argument, but I know it exists and see how it has some merit especially if you look at the history of how restricts on movement have been used to harm hated groups (whether they were Irish or Mexican or you name it)

    Your ignorance of this does not change its truth.

  • Making up stuff is fun!


    The gist of your last post: “Yeah. Black people aren’t *really* homophobic. They’re just poor and for that reason they cling to religion. They need us enlightened white people to show them the way, and then they’ll be all right.”

    It’s called subtext, dude.

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @UsualPlayers: Your Wikipedia quote says freedom of movement is either (a) the right for citizens of a state to move freely within that state (which is clearly not what we’re talking about here), or (b) right (a)+the right of citizens of one state to move within any other state. We’re talking about (b) here, and other than post a Wikipedia definition of the subject at hand, you’ve done nothing to address my argument.

    Good job at hurling insults, though. I’ve clearly met my intellectual equal.

  • UsualPlayers

    @Kev C: You can call yourself a cigar if you want but you are still a right wing extremist

    In fact you are to the far right of the American public on these issues so calling me ‘Che” considering is not surprising

    Extremist rarely see themself as non extreme

    The far right social conservatives call themselves the “Moral Majority” or “The Catholic League” or “1 Million Moms” because thats what right wing groups and individuals do. You need to brand yourself as the middle despite the polls because it build credibility just like the other right wingers do

    Independent here means nothing coming o ut of your mouth

    To contextualize what you are saying here I invite others to read on the subject of homonatioallism

    At its core is the same core for gay racists who use homophobia as an excuse to advance racism: Divide and conquer

    The main thrust fo the gay racist or the gay homonationalist is to pretend to care about gay rights but ultimately really the debate is bait and switch

    You discuss gay rights in order talk about some other policy objective you want accomplsih that is the opposite of human rights for all

    Rather than combating homophobia as you claim to exist in the immigrant community you use it as an excuse to attack the immigrant

    Rather than combating homophobia that the racist perceives in the black community they use it as an excuse to bash black peo

    The point is not the homophobia in either case at all

    None of your solutions revolve around addressing homophobia

    They resolve around bashing the hated “devil”

    Its very similar to NOM divide and conquer and all other right wing ploys

    Its how all movements work in fact

    Find a hated devil and demonize it using whatever tool available

    if it werent gay people it would be something else for you because gay people arent the basis of yoru hate for the immigrants

  • hamoboy

    @Making up stuff is fun!: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh my goodness this is good. I said that black people aren’t homophobic because they’re black (the standard white gay racist crap), but because they are poor and religious. They are religious because they are poor and oppressed, the black church having a proud history of serving and protecting the black community while the federal and state governments did nothing. There is a reason why MLK Jr came from a family of clergymen.
    My point was that educating and empowering these marginalized people so that they break out of intergenerational poverty will have a much more profound effect on homophobia and other stupid opinions than a billboard, and is most assuredly more effective than saying “Oh these minorities/immigrants hate gay people, we must oppose them!”
    I forget how privileged and ignorant commenters on this forum can be. Did it ever occur to you that maybe I’m not white, but a middle class person of colour that knows WTF I’m talking about?

  • hamoboy

    My point was that educating and empowering these marginalized people so that they break out of intergenerational poverty will have a much more profound effect on homophobia and other stupid opinions than a billboard, and is most assuredly more effective than saying “Oh these minorities/immigrants hate gay people, we must oppose them!”
    I forget how privileged and ignorant commenters on this forum can be. Did it ever occur to you that maybe I’m not white, but a middle class person of colour that knows WTF I’m talking about?

    Full story here:

  • Making up stuff is fun!


    PS: Try telling any self-respecting black person all that stuff about ghettoized thinking and how the key is to “educate these people … so they don’t have such erroneous views.”

    I’d loooove to hear their responses.

  • hamoboy

    My point was that educating and empowering these marginalized people so that they break out of intergenerational poverty will have a much more profound effect on homophobia and other stupid opinions than a billboard, and is most assuredly more effective than saying “Oh these minorities/immigrants hate gay people, we must oppose them!”
    I forget how privileged and ignorant commenters on this forum can be. Did it ever occur to you that maybe I’m not white, but a middle class person of colour that knows WTF I’m talking about?

  • UsualPlayers

    @Making up stuff is fun!: The quote link is a synopisis of a complicated issue

    If you expect it to fully cover the range you are indeed illiterate

    That’s just a product of the nature of your arguments

    First you claimed it was bullshit

    ]Now being proven wrong you re engaged in parsing because you havent bothered do your own research on the topic

    Its not just a post on Wikipedia, its a general understanding amongst those interested in movement

    it comes up in multiple ways

    Whether it the Japanese internment caamps or if you look how the US policy right now magically restricts Mexicans more than any other group such that there are very few mexicans with al egal way to come to the US right now

    This is backed up by the data on the subject

    The reason why you are illiterate is that you dont even seem to know the wider debate outside of babbling here and the one thing you can do is to respond to a Wiki synopsis complaingin it doesnt mean anything

  • UsualPlayers

    Kev c

    The far right social conservatives call themselves the “Moral Majority” or “The Catholic League” or “1 Million Moms” because thats what right wing groups and individuals do. You need to brand yourself as the middle despite the polls because it build credibility just like the other right wingers do
    Independent here means nothing coming o ut of your mouth
    To contextualize what you are saying here I invite others to read on the subject of homonatioallism
    At its core is the same core for gay racists who use homophobia as an excuse to advance racism: Divide and conquer
    The main thrust fo the gay racist or the gay homonationalist is to pretend to care about gay rights but ultimately really the debate is bait and switch
    You discuss gay rights in order talk about some other policy objective you want accomplsih that is the opposite of human rights for all
    Rather than combating homophobia as you claim to exist in the immigrant community you use it as an excuse to attack the immigrant
    Rather than combating homophobia that the racist perceives in the black community they use it as an excuse to bash black peo
    The point is not the homophobia in either case at all
    None of your solutions revolve around addressing homophobia
    They resolve around bashing the hated “devil”
    Its very similar to NOM divide and conquer and all other right wing ploys
    Its how all movements work in fact
    Find a hated devil and demonize it using whatever tool available
    if it werent gay people it would be something else for you because gay people arent the basis of yoru hate for the immigrants

  • hamoboy

    @Making up stuff is fun!: Easy. I just look into the mirror and tell myself. You’re quote-mining me so badly I might need an amputation. Homophobia is an erroneous view. If you’re going to comment on this site, you should already accept that as a given. The high levels of it in poor neighbourhoods is a bad thing. The solution is education and empowerment. Nothing racist about that, unless you try another cherry picked quotemine.

  • UsualPlayers

    Kevin C

    I am not impressed by labels

    The right used to call itself the Moral Majority.

    The core of your argument stems from hate of another group rather than concern over homophobia

    Homophobia is the tool you use to reinforce hate of other group

    Its the same with racists who say see blacks area anti gay

    That stems from hate of blacks rather than real concern for homophobia

  • hamoboy

    @Making up stuff is fun!: Easy. I just look into the mirror and tell myself. You’re quote-mining me so badly I might need an amputation. Homophobia is an erroneous view. If you’re going to comment on this site, you should already accept that as a given. The high levels of it in poor neighbourhoods is a bad thing. The solution is education and empowerment. Nothing wrong with that statement, unless you try another cherry picked quotemine.

  • UsualPlayers

    I am not impressed by labels
    The right used to call itself the Moral Majority.
    The core of your argument stems from hate of another group rather than concern over homophobia
    Homophobia is the tool you use to reinforce hate of other group
    Its the same with racists who say see blacks area anti gay
    That stems from hate of blacks rather than real concern for homophobia

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @hamoboy: I agree with everything you said.

    That said: Find a group of black people and repeat to them what you wrote in #76. Just do it. I think you might learn a thing or two about your own biases.

  • kendoll

    Binational SS couples are directly affected. How can this not be an LGBT issue? 10s of thousands of couples are at risk unless immigration policy changes, including elimination of DOMA.

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @UsualPlayers: Yeah. Great. But you *still* haven’t addressed the fundamental issue of the expansive definition of freedom of movement: Should everyone who wants to enter the US have the right to do so?

  • Some Random Guy

    @venomous-viper: “Again there are Millions of “illegals” in the US who are gay or lesbian.”

    Twice, you’ve made the assertion that there are “millions” of GAY undocumented or illegal immigrants.

    This can’t possibly be true. There are only 11 to 12 million undocumented or illegal immigrants in the U.S. This is the rough figure used by the U.S. government and commonly accepted by nearly everyone except Republican xenophobes (who estimate 20 million).

    Therefore at the high end, maybe about HALF a million.

  • venomous-viper

    @Some Random Guy:

    First of all those numbers you just quoted where for Latinos, again with the stereotypes. There are illegals here in the United States from EVERY county sweet pea! You all need to get over the notion that is is brown skinned Mexicans who are ONLY here illegally.

    And who cares if it is only 500,000 undocumented GLBT (that number alone probably wouldn’t even touch Los Angeles!!), does that somehow exempt it from being an GLBT issue?

    You know I tell my Latino and Asian friends who are obsessed with hooking up with white folks, that just because they want to have sex with you, doesn’t mean they like you or your people. This blog has proved my point entirely.

  • hamoboy

    @Making up stuff is fun!: The fact that you think all black people are snarling homophobes who will react badly to my statement says a lot about YOUR biases. It’s easy, I just go to a historically black college and say that to the Straight/Gay Alliance Association there. I will be met with at best agreement, at worst, with civil discussion about “subtext” that you so gleefully find in my statements. You seem to think black people are some monolithic hivemind. I can’t say I’m surprised, given your obvious biases.

  • 2eastCoastDudes

    Are immigrant groups supportive of LGBT groups? Thats MY question

  • Matt

    It’s interesting to me that the gay community is always expected to be everyone’s diplomat. There’s been a string of anti gay hate crimes, including the STABBING of a 16 year old gay child by a group of black people in D.C, not to mention the countless times black people say “We don’t CARE about your rights. They don’t compare to ours and you don’t deserve them” and somehow the tables are turned to blame gays for the passionate homophobia within the black community. Instead of calling out their ignorance for what it is.

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @venomous-viper: His numbers include ALL undocumented immigrants. Seems like YOU went off on kind of a tangent by thinking he only meant Latinos.

    As for it being a “GLBT issue”… how do you figure? If marriage equality is achieved, then gay and straight immigrants will stand on exactly the same legal footing. So if we cared about GLBT immigrants, shouldn’t we just focus on marriage equality (and maybe, as GLBTs who believe in solidarity, give money to pro-LGBT immigrants non-profits)?

  • Some Random Guy

    To go back to the original question, Should the LGBT community get involved in other struggles?

    We need not debate whether a totally fictional, imaginary entity that doesn’t exist in the first place, should or shouldn’t get involved in other struggles.

    We may as well argue about whether Star Trek’s Federation of Planets should deport those pesky Romulan immigrants, or should we assimilate them and try to make friends with the Romulan Empire.

    The self-appointed “leaders” of the fictional LGBT “community” will do whatever they want anyway. And contradict each other, as usual!

  • Red Velvet

    @ Matt

    Black people are consistently some of the most homophobic, and I say that as a biracial guy. I visit gay blogs and blag oriented websites and it’s truly vile the level of homophobia seen, especially in gay related posts. There is a well known black blog that featured the story about the suicide of a young gay teen and of the 93 comments, some 90% were commenting how the child was now burning in hell and saying that’s it’s a celebration there’ one less gay person in this world. Far too longthe gay community has bit it’s tongue and not tackled the elephant in the room in relation to their homophobia, because we don’t dare want to make them uncomfortable even though they themselves have no issue making us feel uncomfortable and discriminated against.

  • hamoboy

    @Matt: Nobody is blaming gays for the homophobia in black communities. What is to blame is poverty, high religiosity and low education levels. These are the results of centuries of racism in policy and vigilante action by the white majority. And the comments on gay media sites like this show that the predominantly white LGBT population have some incredibly ignorant people of their own. Black people can be homophobic, gay people can be racist. Intersectionality, it’s a thing.

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @hamoboy: Wow. You really think the issue here is your saying there’s homophobia in the black community? The point is your paternalistic tone and the notion that poor people (whom you equate with blacks) need education from the enlightened classes (whose identity, following your logic, one may readily guess). Anyone even vaguely familiar with the history of race relations in America will grasp why that way of framing things is liable to rub some black people the wrong way.

    I was just trying to yank your crank when I called you a ra-cist, but the fact that you *still* haven’t caught on to the ra-cist undertones in your post lead me to think that maybe, just maybe, I wasn’t that wide of the mark.

  • Some Random Guy

    @venomous-viper: The 11 to 12 million figure is the TOTAL figure, according to the U.S. government and most everyone else.

    The biggest immigrant group where I live is Brazilians.

    Not sure what you’re imagining with this one.

  • Mark Klohens

    I agree with some other commentators. While we look at LGBT, how about the black population who constantly screams about their struggles and civil rights. Where are they in this dialogue? Because time and time again, many articles show black people are heavily against the presence of illegal immigration, both based on rights and the work force. Their record on gay rights is no mystery either. While we’re holding groups accountable, let’s not be politically correct and let’s aim to be honest for once. There’s other communities who are far more self revolved than the gay or latino population, and seem to only care about the freedoms of their own people and no one else.

  • hamoboy

    @Matt: Nobody is blaming gays for the homophobia in black communities. What is to blame is poverty, high religiosity and low education levels. These are the results of centuries of racism in policy and vigilante action by the white majority. And the comments on gay media sites like this show that the predominantly white LGBT population have some incredibly ignorant people of their own. Black people can be homophobic, gay people can be ra-cist. Intersectionality, it’s a thing.

    PS: The filter chews up any comment with the r word in them. What does it say about an LGBT site that they don’t want discussion of that word in the comments? Human rights are universal, and discussion of one area naturally intersects with discussion of another.

  • UsualPlayers

    @2eastCoastDudes: Actually yes many are. La Raza for example as well as many other orgs are favorable to gay issues

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @hamoboy: Wow. You just can’t help yourself.

    “It’s not THEIR fault. We’ve just treated them poorly. If only they could be educated like us, then they’d see the light and agree with us. I mean, it’s not like blacks can form their OWN opinions.”

    Ra-cist to the last drop.

    “gay people can be ra-cist.”

    You FINALLY said something true.

  • UsualPlayers

    @Mark Klohens: Have you been living in your own bubble?

    You mean like the NAACP which recently by a 50 to 2 vote endorsed gay marriage?

    Or do you mean like MD where there are more blacks supporting gay marriage than whites

    The problem with racists is that facts rarely matter to you

  • venomous-viper

    @Making up stuff is fun!:

    First of all this is not about you generous whites “caring” about anyone!!

    There are GLBT undocumented immigrants in this country and THIS makes this an GLBT issue.

    Would we be having the same issue with breast cancer not really being a “Lesbian Issue” …of course not!!

    As far as the numbers thing. I worked with a full blooded Native American yesterday and we had a long conversation about how whites use language and stats to confuse and control people. I get it.. You all love to play these games about specifics numbers when that is not the point.

    Trickster Spirits on the run..

  • UsualPlayers

    Its funny how despite the NAACp and black leaders and polling showing majorites of blacks support gay equality people can still argue here as if they aren’t

    Like Kev C the main point seems to be to push one’s bigotry by using homophobia as an excuse to do so

  • hamoboy

    @Making up stuff is fun!: I have not used poor and black interchangeably. I have used black communities as EXAMPLES of poor communities, as in a SUBSET. You understand what that word mean right? And don’t tone troll me. You are the commenter that loves snarking at other people’s words, and should be the last person to use that line of argument. You even admit that you made an outrageous and offensive accusation merely to “yank my crank”. Well, it appears your method is to continually deliberately misread my posts, and pick apart supposed “subtext” as signs of deeper nefariousness. Which you then agree with. Oh boy.

  • Barbie

    @venomous-viper: Yeah. Math is hard!

  • UsualPlayers

    @venomous-viper: If you ever get the chance to go to law school one of the first cases you learn in property is how language has manipulated from the very begining of this country against people of color

    In the case of Naitive Americans the S Ct or some court said that they were not owners of their land bcause although in possession of the land it was whites who discovered it and understood property rights

    Get it?

    If you want to claim ownership alll you have to say is I discovered it!

  • hamoboy

    @Making up stuff is fun!: Again with the deliberate misreading. I didn’t say it wasn’t their FAULT. Every free individual is accountable for their own actions. I was merely providing context for how these opinions and behaviours came to exist and acquire prominence in such communities. There are enough comments here blaming ALL BLACK PEOPLE EVERYWHERE for any sign of black homophobia. That statement was a reply to those comments. Yes there are ra-cists here. But not me.

  • UsualPlayers

    @hamoboy: One of the signs of the racism is that they are pretending the data about states like Maryland doesn’te exist o that the NAACP decision on marriage issue doesn’t exist in order to go into screeds about black people

    In fact broadly speaking thats the real objection to the cross discussion of issues as they related to human rights

    The bigots amongst us feel threatened with their own pet bigotries

  • J.J

    Uhm…Latinos were AGAINST our right to marry. EVERY single poll in this state of California showed that. If you LIVED here, you would know which faces and segment of population were against our rights as an LGBT. We as gays are told to overlook everyone else’s homophobia and disdain for us while we tackle everyone else’s problems and NEVER discuss injustices and homophobia we face by said groups. Fascinating AND disgusting.

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @hamoboy: Sure. All of that is true.

    That said: There is a seriously ra-cist undertone in your posts. To continue with the Star Wars theme: Search your feelings. You know it to be true.

    And if you don’t, you have literally no self-awareness.

  • venomous-viper


    JJ you need to check out the website to National Council of La Raza.

    Your argument is false. Latinos were more in favor or gay marriage than blacks and almost as much as whites.

  • ThinkNow1982

    I just read another story of a gay teenager being stabbed in our nation’s capitol by a group of black youth. This two days after another gay child was attacked by a group of black people in Boston. And a month after 2 gay couples were shot by a group of black poeople in an IHOP in D.C after they were the targets of horrible anti gay slurs while trying to eat their meals. We can be told to ignore a huge problem by a certain demographic but that just gives said group a green light to be more homophobic.

    The black community has not even begun the process of peeling off the surface of homophobia within their population. Don’t demand us to wave your banner, when you shoot, attack, bully and spit on ours.

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @venomous-viper: You are literally repeating all the arguments I attacked. For a discussion to move forward, you have to address your fellow debater’s counter-arguments.

  • hamoboy

    @Making up stuff is fun!: You are the one who framed black people as a group I should go talk to fully expecting a negative reaction. You are the one who has nothing constructive to say except to pick apart other people’s arguments. And you seem to select the antira-cist posts instead of the ra-cist posts for your attentions. By your choice of replies over the length of this comment thread, it is clear what side you take. There are serious ra-cist undertones to the pattern of your replies, and if you don’t get this, you literally have no self-awareness.


    @ThinkNow1982: And part of that reason is some parts of society have concluded that homophobia, even militant homophobia which many GLBT face, is not an issue, and far less of an offensive issue than racism. That’s a conclusion many gays rightfully reject and take issue with. As a multicultural gay, who has a diverse background, I’ve faced great injustices due to being gay, I’d argue even far more so than being multicultural. Yet I have to defend how much hardship I’ve faced to black people who should have enough realization to grant us with enough respect & rights to not have to be in a position to defend our existence. That’s been my personal experiences and one I won’t blindly overlook to be diplomatic.

  • USC Trojan

    The fact that gay people can’t have this time devoted to battling their own cause, and the argument is made that they DON’T deserve their rights until they battle everyone else’s cause, proves the level of hatred and homophobia existing toward LGBT today.

    WE *have* taken a back seat for centuries.

    WE HAVE been killed, burned alive, and tortured for people suspecting we’re gay, and having no authority, government official of even cop come to our defense.

    WE HAVE had to hide who we are, be ashamed of it, and even go so far as burry our gay selves and create the life of a heterosexual

    WE HAVE lost our gay youth in suicide at the most alarming rate, strictly for who they were born to be

    Our fight has just recently begun, and before today we were silenced or worse, killed for even entertaining the notion to be ourselves.

    Now that we want to find our room in the table, we’re told to AGAIN to wait our turn or not until after we help everyone else.

    HOMOPHOBIA…that’s the bottom line of the other people’s argument here. Which can be best summed up with: they don’t ever believe our time should come, and want us to be set back by fighting everyone else’s fight while our movement loses steam and momentum. Of course, every other demographic is entitled to fight with unwavering passion for their best interest.

  • hamoboy

    @ThinkNow1982: “The black community has not even begun the process of peeling off the surface of homophobia within their population.”

    So NAACP coming out in favour of marriage equality, our very BLACK president also being in favour of marriage equality, along with several black celebrities also supporting it, all these things are as chaff in the wind?
    Homophobia, toxic masculinity and street violence combine in a horrific way in the inner city. But these people are not homophobic because they are black, they are homophobic because they are poor, religious and undereducated. Just like homophobia, toxic masculinity and gun violence combine in horrific ways in small towns. You identify an enemy by their words and actions, and not the colour of their skin.
    How is condemning an entire community because of the actions of a criminal few reasonable and just?

  • IonMusic

    @USC Trojan: PREACH!!!!!!! WELL SAID!!!!!!! on all accounts.

  • Clockwork

    Great discussion!

    The intellectuals from all sides are out tonight!

  • hamoboy

    @USC Trojan: Human rights are not a zero sum game. Human rights are universal. Justice increased anywhere is justice increased everywhere. No one is saying that LGBT lobbies should put their own issues on the back burner and and address other interests. The question of the article (an incredibly privileged question) was whether LGBT leaders and activist groups should give support of other social justice causes WHEN THEY CAN AND WANT TO. The justification for gay rights is the justification for all other rights. We SHOULD (but not necessarily absolutely HAVE TO) support adjacent social justice movements when we can, depending on their history of supporting us, and our political needs at the moment. Y’know, like rational people.

  • LucyInTheSky

    @USC Trojan: One of the most honest and realistic posts I’ve read on here. The demands made on LGBT, and the grievances commited by other groups toward us being overlooked or us being told to overlook them is a point of fascination, double standard and complacency for me. We have fought for the justice, freedom and rights of many, many, many, MANY groups of people. Opening a gay oriented history book will reaffirm how much LGBT groups throughout the decades fought with and for the woman’s liberation movement, chicano movement, and a plethora of other civil rights movements, down to the humane treatment of animals. We’ve been there. What’s caused our recent frustrated reactionary tale is that we wished we could witness the same reciprocal level of understanding back. Yet to force us to ignore stastics and quotes from certain minority groups in relation to our movement is requesting us to play dumb. The push-back gays face by some ethnic minorities is not some fairy tale made up tune. It’s factual, and until said groups are willing to open the line of communication and have an HONEST conversation about the causes and resolutions to and for homophobia in their population, then please lower your expectations of LGBT curing the world of all it’s evil. We currently have enough on our plate trying to showcase why we deserve to live in parts of the world!

  • UsualPlayers

    Why do racists lie?

    5% (and 68% of Latino Catholics) say that being gay is

    morally acceptable.

    La Raza just endorsed gay marriage too.

    By the way I am falling into the trap of marriage equality as gay rights on ly issue

    If you go outside of gay marriage to ENDA and DADT both blacks and Latinos heavily support passing ENDA and ending DADT in percentages that are often higher than whites in their states


    ““With somewhere between three out of five Hispanics identifying as Catholic there was a thought walking into the survey that if there is a lack of support and acceptance in the Hispanic community, then it’s the Catholic nature of the community that’s driving it. Turns out that’s not the case at all. A majority Catholic Hispanics support legal gay marriage. It’s actually Protestant Hispanics that are under 50% support of gay marriage,” Dutwin said.

    Indeed the study found that “sixty-four percent of Latinos support civil unions. No less than 83 percent of Latinos support legal protections for hate crimes, job discrimination, housing discrimination, as well as support for health care and pension benefits for gay and lesbian couples. Over three out of four (78%) support open military service.”

    This tracks with numbers shown in the general population. But these findings are significant because of the persistent belief that Hispanics are strong supporters of “traditional family values.” It was this belief that prompted the National Organization for Marriage to target Hispanics to try and increase their opposition to marriage equality. In its document NOM plays to the traditionalists who may not want to “assimilate” into the more permissive American culture.”

    The above numbers are slightly above white support

  • ICU-TV

    I’m open to supporting SOME social causes, but I absolutely positively believe OUR cause is at an extremely fragile state today and deserves even far MORE resources, man power and effort than LGBT has. We’re living in a time where gay families DAILY lose their job in a terrible economy…..not because of the economy, but they are losing their jobs because they are gay! And it’s perfectly legal in many places in this country, and throughout the general world. How deplorable is that? THAT injustice earns being a priority for the people affected by it. The injustices gay face, from legislative discrimination to societal discrimination are vast and prominent. We’ve earned the right to care about our livelihood precisley because SO MANY OTHERS HAVEN’T GIVEN TWO SH-TS ABOUT US. While I can and do help where I can and do, I have personally seen the anguish brought forth to my gay brothers and lesbian sisters, an anguish very few individuals can relate to, simply experiencing mistreatment for who they are.

  • UsualPlayers

    I dont feel like trying to figure out away round the sites spam filter

    I posted that Latin support for gay rights in in accord i n pollin with the general population and in some areas higher

    The racism on display here is again evidenced by the general denial of data

  • UsualPlayers

    The irony of conservatives who do nothing to support rights in any other instances claiming that gay liberals who have actually been out the streets fighting for decades are wrong to fight for gay rights as human rights (the real discussion here) is indeed thick.

    The whole back seat argument came about because some in the community much like yourself refused to help other gays early on who were fighting for your rights. Yo uknow folks like GOProud types who even now are working against us while claiming they are a “gay group”

    They are only “gay” in the sense of divide and conquer

    If i were just a struggle for gay rights you would still be crapping on the effort for equality because at base for some of you its not about equality or human rights. Its just abou tyourself

    So please spare us the whole its time for us to focus on ourselves

    You always have focused on yourself both now and in the past

  • Aaaron

    Provided the level of prejudice GLBT face in this climate. That so many of our kids are homeless because their parents would rather them see die on the street than be loving and gay. That people are murdered, fired, and couldn’t die for this country without hiding who they were until recently tells me the real framing of this question should be:
    What have OTHERS done for us?
    We’re not self revolved for asking that either. We’re a group rich in history full of battles of rancid mistreatment, and even today get compared to animals by elected officials. We are a people who endure great disenfranchisement. So my question is: other than LGBT fighting passionately for us, who is clearly, considerably and colossally understanding OUR plight? because clearly it’s nowhere near enough if we’re still having to fight for the many basic things we have to fight for daily.

  • UsualPlayers

    By the way- no matter how many times the liars post here without providing any data for their lies, the truth is you are in deed lying

    For instance- the notion that other groups did no support gay rights is laughable

    Again- what were the unions doing as far back as the 70s other than supporting you tired conservative asses while you were vilifying them and trying to hide in the closet?

    What is the NAACP doing coming out in support of marriage equality

    WHy anre black and latino groups heavily in favor of equality on things like jobs and the military for gays?
    The same is true of their view of housing.

    Why are polls in several states showing blacks heavily in favor of marriage equality

    Why do polls show that Latinos are too

    You can’t bring any facts to the table so you keep lying

    I dont know why others debate you without pointing out you are fact lying

    But I t hink its important for that to be made clear

    One of the signs you are bigot is that you deny facts in favor of l ying to justify your views

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @hamoboy: You clearly haven’t read all of my posts on this thread. I suggest you do.

    As for selecting anti-ra/cist posts while ignoring ra/cist ones: No. I selected *your* posts, because I thought it was interesting that someone who in the biphobia thread tried to come across as against all kinds of discrimination could so easily (and, most disturbingly, so unwittingly) fall into the age-old trap of subtle, paternalistic ra-cism.

  • UsualPlayers

    @Aaaron: < this is exhibit A of the bigot

    He pretends to care about the issues listed but does not point out that these issues are intersections of class, race and sexual orientation and include often gender variance isues

    On top of that he completely denies that actually these groups have been there on these issues such as unions who heavily pushed against PRop8 in 2008 and going back to the 70s where they helped with issues of gay rights

    Or that on manyof the issues there are super majorities of blacks and latinos who support us on those issues

    And the list goes on

    The problem withthe bigot is that they will deny facts until the cows come home because it does not fit the bigotry

  • tookietookie

    132 comments on this thread? Wtf.

    The answer is no.

  • UsualPlayers

    @Making up stuff is fun!: Lord, you people are dragging every possible right wing frame out you can tonight

    What next

    Can any of you respond to data and facts?

  • UsualPlayers

    @tookietookie: it doesn’t matter how many screen names you make up tos ay the same extremist things

    Respond to the comments and what they are saying

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @Aaaron: Ah relax. GLBTs fighting for GLBTs is the start and the core, but we wouldn’t be where we are if we hadn’t convinced our friends and families to take our side. And to a large extent we have.

  • hamoboy

    @Making up stuff is fun!: And I have stated time and time again, that the only way to read my posts as “subtle paternalisic racism” is if you are determined to read my posts with such connotations. It’s so subtle that you can only show it by badly paraphrasing and quote-mining me in the worst way possible. And I find it interesting that someone with such pronounced biphobia is now a staunch defender of rights everywhere. Your personal antipathy towards me is making you see meanings in my comments that I am not putting there. If I were to write a speech or essay, I would obviously have worded some of my arguments more clearly, so people wouldn’t do what you have done. But alas, with the quick pace of comments, and the filter chewing odd ones up arbitrarily, they are as they stand. I repeat again, the only way to see this “subtle paternalistic racism” is if you are determined to twist my meanings until you arrive at them. Making comments about populations and historical trends is not paternalistic.

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @UsualPlayers: Seems like you consider yourself a left-winger, and yet you’re seemingly blind to the subtle racism of lowered expectations.

  • InstantTrain

    Societal homophobia is ugly and societal homophobia exists most in the black community. It is a militant, violent for of homophobia, especially within young black youth who attack our gay kids in mob packs. I can pull up dozens of said cases right now. Time to stop ignoring the elephant in the room and get REAL

  • IonMusic

    Racism is no worse than homophobia. That’s the real message that should be promoted more throughout minority groups…is it? HARDLY.
    Until then, don’t demand gays to just put it with homophobia while being hyper sensitive of any notions of racism when the people who cry racist the loudest also scream “F-ggot” with pride too.

  • hamoboy

    @Making up stuff is fun!: Here’s an example of something I wrote that needs to be reworded.
    “Homophobia is an erroneous view. If you’re going to comment on this site, you should already accept that as a given. The high levels of it in poor neighbourhoods is a bad thing. The solution is education and empowerment.”

    I would rewrite it as such: “Homophobia is an erroneous view. There are high levels of it in poor neighbourhoods. Due to historical reasons, black (and several other minority or immigrant) neighbourhoods tend to be poor neighbourhoods. THESE NEIGHBORHOODS HAVE HIGH HOMOPHOBIA BECAUSE THEY ARE POOR, RELIGIOUS AND UNDEREDUCATED, NOT BECAUSE OF SOME MYSTERIOUS QUALITY OF THEIR ETHNIC GROUP. The solution is education and empowerment.”

    One thing I would like to know is, what is YOUR view on this matter?

  • IonMusic

    Racism is no worse than homophobia. That’s the real message that should be promoted more throughout minority groups…is it? HARDLY.

  • StevenANDCarlos

    I do feel homophobia by black people is often excused. So many excuses, and not enough accountability. If the argument is: homophobia exists because of “street” culture. Well who enforces street culture? who glorifies street culture? who accepts and promotes street culture? The black community, notably young black men. The subtext being street culture isn’t a tangible area to blame. The WHO is what is missing from the argument and the WHO is young black men who reinforce the thought that gay = evil. Meanwhile, we gays have to endure the consequences of said ignorance because gays are too afraid to combat it, and black population couldn’t care less about cultural homophobia in their bracket. If they did, we wouldn’t see so many young black men proudly walking around homophobic.

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @hamoboy: My view is: Why bring the “black” into it at all?

    There is a well-documented correlation between poverty and homophobia, not with homophobia and race. Statistically, once you take into account family income, urban/suburban/rural location, state, parents’ educational level, and single/two-parent home status–once you take all that into account, race turns out not a significant factor in homophobia.

    So why is race the first thing that pops into your mind?

  • hamoboy

    @Making up stuff is fun!: It wasn’t the first thing to pop into my mind. I wrote a long screed with some other examples (that being the last) but the comment filter chewed it up. I copy pasted pieces, and that was the only one that got through.

  • laserlightbeams

    There’s strong evidence that shows those most resitant toward gays and LGBT equality are black men and latino men. If our rights were in the hands of strictly black and latino male voters, we’d have some 80% of people against us. Those are realities that can’t go ignored. As my grandpa always said: Just stupid to play dumb.

  • hamoboy

    @Making up stuff is fun!: Also, I’ve taken a look at your comment history on this thread, and you have at no point challenged the assertions by at least 10 commenters now that “black or latinos are homophobic thugs that want to kill teh gays and vote against marriage equality because they are teh evulz.”

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @hamoboy: I’m not going to answer *every* post. I ignore the boring ones.

  • hamoboy

    @Making up stuff is fun!: I like how instead of conceding in words that you had a mistaken impression, you just ignore what has been argued about for the past few hours and move on like nothing happened. And it’s interesting to note that actual “right-there-in-you-face” ra/cism elicits boredom from you, but you are determined to pick apart more progressive comments for any percieved “subtle racism”. Like I said, the pattern of your replies says a lot about you, and if you don’t get that you don’t have any self awareness at all.
    Are you a dues paying member of GOProud?

  • laserlightbeams

    @StevenANDCarlos: AGREED! AGREED! AGREED! It’s the idea that “homophobia is okay, but racism?! OH MY GOD! BURN THEIR HOUSES! AND COME WITH TORCHES!” that’s exactly what gets us behind. Giving a free pass to homophobia by people who are minorities themselves or not calling out the hypocrisy of a group who demands to be treated more than fairly (ethnic minorities) but generally couldn’t care less about the struggles of LGBT or actually inflicting unnecessary harm toward them.

  • Kev C

    @UsualPlayers: You just want to victimize the victims of homophobia. You endorse homophobia by letting other groups be as homophobic as they want to be.

    I actually used to be a progressive until I learned the truth. That the Left doesn’t care about the my safety or my life. That I was expendable to their hive mind political goals. Until I studied the facts and history, after seeing all the statistics that show what I suspected: That gays are more likely to be assaulted by a Democrat than a Republican. That labor unions discriminate againt gays more than corporations do. That the word F-GG-T is a leftist word with a violent leftist history. That more muslims want me dead as much or more than christians do. And that’s why I’m an independent.

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @hamoboy: Actually, when I see outright racism I call it out. It’s what I did with you. Because

    Y O U – A R E – A – R A C I S T

    A real one. One of the dangerous ones. One of the ones who thinks he’s helping. But deep down, you’re just a piece of $hit ra/cist.

  • venomous-viper

    What does black homophobia have to do with this issue? I am not about calling people the big bad scary words like “Racist” and “Homophobe” because I believe we are all to a varying degree, and know these words are used to control people.

    But the people on this blog tonight have been through the roof with the anti-black stuff. Are blacks prejudiced…um..sure just like white folks and everyone one else are. This does not have anything to do with immigration??

  • hamoboy

    @Making up stuff is fun!: Oh be still my heart! I am a [email protected] according to a queerty troll who handily denies almost any sign of overt racism from anyone else who isn’t me. Your disingenuousness is noted. You don’t like me, that’s fine. I don’t like you either. But to launch an hours long comment war over how my very reasonable statement upthread could SUBJECTIVELY be interpreted shows you for the evil little troll you are.
    You’re the worst kind of [email protected] The quisling kind that attacks attempts at speaking out against [email protected] because they aren’t “perfect”, yet passively supporting real live overt [email protected] Sounds like a trick right out of the GOProud playbook.

  • Selrah

    I find it odd that a discussion about, “Should we help others?”, has turned into, “But, what have they done for me?”

  • UsualPlayers

    One of the more interesting aspects is how the racist is impervious to factsa nd data

    You just keep posting the same diatribes over and over again

    Blacks are against gays

    Immigrants are against gays

    Blah, blah,blah

    Never proving a thing

  • UsualPlayers

    @Selrah: No its the heart of the battle right now in teh gay community

    There is a subset that really has no interest in equality

    They are just in it this for themselves

    Think Mary Cheney

    ANd so they will rationalize however inaccurate the same talking points again and again without proof

    Note how out of variance their justifications are when compared to what’s been happening

  • UsualPlayers

    That small part of the community that’s in it for themselves as gays become more of a struggle for equality which means including others will become more and more virulent because they want to maintain control and power

    The whole article is bout some power and what happens when people who are used to being big fish in a small pond are told they are losing power

    There is nothing new or odd here

    Its just a reflection of how conservatism works

  • hamoboy

    @Selrah: Thank you for injecting some rationality into a discussion that has been badly derailed. LGBTs (well, EVERYONE really) have long memories for when people have worked against them, but short memories for when allies have lent a hand. I don’t know whether LGBT groups should or shouldn’t, but at the very least, discussion needs to be held with facts and data, instead of anecdotes and ignorance of actual recent events.

  • Kev C

    .. continued … and also that many gays live poorer and harder lives than many immigrants and naturalized citizens do. That a Dhuran Ravi enjoys more freedoms, priviledges, security and opportunities than a Tyler Clementi does.

  • UsualPlayers


    There is a reason why they aren’t engaging in facts, polling data, historical info, etc

    Its because it says the opposite of what they arguing

    lets take one example: other groups did not help gays in the past

    This is just historically false

    Unions, the NAACP, many progressive orgs, you name it

    They have all been going to bat for gays for quite some time.

    Some donating money and man power such as in Prop8

    And lets compare what happened with gay groups to other groups

    Historically many human rights groups have worked in solidarity because they realized sink apart, swim together

    This is all historical information easily obtainable and yet they say the exact opposite


    what other choice do they have given the arguments they are making

  • Jackson

    I worked in the NAACP in different branches and while they certainly did come to defense of gay rights, it had far more to do with Julian Bond and his efforts than a grass roots collective care on LGBT rights. In fact, speak to Mr. Bond when you get the chance. The resistence, pressur and pull back e hexperienced for lending support toward LGBT was far and wide…within the organization. Many parts of the NAACP wanted nothing to do with gay rights or the idea of gays even being considered a group battling true civil rights, with many arguments/protests and cries at meetings coming from black members saying they resent the idea that those living in sin should be compared to being black. It happened because of Julian Bond. Many layers of homophobia could be examined within NAACP during that duration and process for those of us who were there and lived it.

  • TruthSeeker

    No, illegal immigration is flawed, hurtful for the country with great consequencs. It is NOT related to LGBT and will never be. I actually don’t even like the two to be compared. We’re inherently who we are and want basic rights for it. We’re not breaking laws, or ignoring rules and regulations of a nation to cut in line all to get our piece of the pie. To be lumped with that is insulting.

  • PrinceGreek

    Since when did it become the LGBT’s community to take on the battles of every single other demographic? especially when we can pull up statistics to back up how these demographics time and time again have gotten in the way of us attaining our rights and boldly do so without making any apologies for it?

    Seriously, enough with apologizing for who we are and telling everyone “No, I insist, after you” while they call us a gay slur in our face and say they resent us even calling our rights- rights-

  • Albert-Pamona,CA

    I live in Torrance California and during Prop 8 journey, we black residents created a rally against marriage equality near our town. Video can be found on youtube. It attracted hundreds of spectators and supporters, an overwhelming majority being African American, some from Churches but most out there on their own. In video, some even state that their disgust with same sex marriage has nothing to do with religion as some said they weren’t religious. They had signs against us, against who we were, and brazen about it. So while some sit on the side lines taking scores of what LGBT are doing for others, let’s also be fair and keep score of how the very people LGBT are demanded to support are often vocally offensive to us and hardly ever get called out on it. Not by themselves, not by their leaders, and God forbid we make note of observations.

    Don’t be surprised when our community is frustrated by that double standard, to which reading these comments and comments on many other LGBT blogs….we are. The LGBT resent of the black community does NOT come from them being black, but by a pattern in actions against us. I will and always have supported black people against injustice, will and always have dated black men, befriended and understood their horrible mistreatment, but the feeling is often not mutual on their part, and that WILL frustrate us.

  • Dax

    “Matt,” “laserlightbeams,” “StevenANDCarlos,” “Albert-Pamona,CA”…and a few others…all the same ra-cist troll posting under different names. I swear, some people need to take a refresher course in Troll-101. If you’re going to try and pull a fast one by posting under multiple alias, for the sake of reposting the SAME argument to make it seem like there are others who agree with your prejudiced/bigoted/stupid stance, then you need to find an alternative way of presenting your B.S., instead of basically reheating the same context from the same exact angle. You’re obvious as hell and fool no one.

  • Albert-Pamona,CA

    Huh? I didn’t make a single one of those other comments. I’ve posted before with this handle. Get a clue. Gay people talking about discrimination they faced by blacks isn’t new. It happens all the time because it’s a fact. And it’s time we stop ignoring it just because some people can’t muster up the courage to confront the bigotry in their people. That’s not our fault for bringing something that effects us to light.

  • Kate

    To the inevitable black posters who argue: “take the Church out of the black population and they’d be in favor of gay rights”…raaaight, well take secular liberals out of the white population and you don’t have white support for same-sex marriage. Take the Republican population out of likely voters and Obama wins in a landslide. What’s the point of doing the sort of parsing you suggest, other than to just manipulate the numbers in a meaningless way?

  • hamoboy

    @Kate: BZZZZT. WRONG. Take the POVERTY out of the black population and they’ll be in favour of gay rights. Poverty is the single most important factor that increases likelihood of homophobia in a person, and thanks to the USA’s wonderful history, a black person is almost THREE times (9.9% vs 27.4%) more likely to be living in poverty than a white person, and MUCH more likely to be BORN into poverty (46% of all black children).
    The numbers aren’t “manipulated in a meaningless way” but to show people with your outlook that it’s not RACE that makes someone more likely to be homophobic, but socioeconomic factors. The first person to reply with “I’m white and I was born poor and I’m NOT homophobic” gets a whole new internets for missing the point by light-years.

  • VA2PA

    @hamoboy: I’m so sick of that tired argument. Time for black people to take responsibility for your own mess. You take up the most amount of space in prisons because of YOUR own actions. You leave your kids fatherless because of YOUR own actions. You have the highest rate of drop outs in schools because of YOUR own actions. And you practice homophobia because of YOUR own will. All these things go hand in hand, and all these things are as a result of the black community themselves. If the black community spent a fraction of the time it does blaming everyone else for their own actions, and took responsibility for their wrong doings, maybe they wouldn’t be where you stated they are. Until then, they’ve been very nicely told to blame everyone but themselves, and that way they get to be as indifferent as they want in changing their repetitive actions. It’s only hurting themselves.

  • zander

    NO, I feel that every one of us should support social issues but not as an organised movement such as the “LGBT Community”, Also just because people are for LGBT issues doesn’t mean they are for immigration and other social issues so it would be a false representation at best on our part to say we back it when not all “LGBT” people back it so thus it’s not a community effort but rather an individual opinion, I think it should be supported on a individual basis and not on a community basis. We should stick to our own fights and see them through before we go involving ourselves to other people especially people from different parts of the world who can potentially threaten our movement once we help them succeed or by people no longer supporting us because of where we stand on a non LGBT issue.

  • hamoboy

    1.They take up more space in prisons because of that POVERTY thing I mentioned, and because things like “The War On Drugs” legislation target drugs used by black addicts (crack) disproportionately harsher than drugs used more typically by white users (powdered cocaine), even when they are the SAME substance.
    2. They have higher rates of single parenthood because of point #1, poverty, lower education levels, and social/community instability which leads me to my next point.
    3. They have higher dropout rates because predominantly black neighborhoods tend to have crappier schools, less resources invested/available for students (Point #2 says hi!), and oh yeah, that HIGHER RATE OF POVERTY thing, which help points #1 & #2 along. Which meshes well with:
    4. They have higher levels of homophobia because of the POVERTY thing, the low education levels (thanks high dropout rate), fewer positive family/community role models (thanks high imprisonment and single parenthood rate), and a toxic masculinity culture encouraged by the high rate of incarceration in their demographic (thanks again Point #1).
    All these things go hand in hand in a vicious cycle.
    Here’s a hint: just because you’re part of an oppressed group (in this case LGBT) doesn’t mean you have all the answers to every social justice problem (like racism, sexism or ableism), and it most certainly DOESN’T make it all right to say racist things (or sexist things, or ableist things).

  • hamoboy

    @VA2PA: 1.They take up more space in prisons because of that POVERTY thing I mentioned, and because things like “The War On Drugs” legislation target drugs used by black addicts (crack) disproportionately harsher than drugs used more typically by white users (powdered cocaine), even when they are the SAME substance.
    2. They have higher rates of single parenthood because of point #1, poverty, lower education levels, and social/community instability which leads me to my next point.
    3. They have higher dropout rates because predominantly black neighborhoods tend to have crappier schools, less resources invested/available for students (Point #2 says hi!), and oh yeah, that HIGHER RATE OF POVERTY thing, which help points #1 & #2 along. Which meshes well with:
    4. They have higher levels of homophobia because of the POVERTY thing, the low education levels (thanks high dropout rate), fewer positive family/community role models (thanks high imprisonment and single parenthood rate), and a toxic masculinity culture encouraged by the high rate of incarceration in their demographic (thanks again Point #1).
    All these things go hand in hand in a vicious cycle.
    Here’s a hint: just because you’re part of an oppressed group (in this case LGBT) doesn’t mean you have all the answers to every social justice problem (like ra-cism, sexism or ableism), and it most certainly DOESN’T make it all right to say ra-cist things (or sexist things, or ableist things).

  • Jack-ofalltraits

    To see how truly homophobic black people are. Scroll down and read the comments section of this article. People had to log in with their facebook accounts to comment and of the ovet hundred black commentators, every single one except for two express extreme homophobia. Not just slight homophobia but intense homophobic commentary and bullied every gay commentator in the thread. Very alarming. Here’s the link:

  • KyleW

    @UsualPlayers: “No one cares what you stand for. THis is you ego speaking. The point is do these organizations (Not you) have the right to go support no gay issues for hte purpose of solidarity. You and Mary Chenney can go sit in the corner waiting for the rest of us to do the heavy lifting for the human rights movement”

    Please bother to read what I say before writing disparaging or self-satisfied responses. I’m by no means suggesting that LGBT people should not get involved in other movements; I’m simply saying that we should not do so under the label LGBT. You might think that deciding which causes to support is self-evident, but that is NOT the case: for example, abortion – whose human right should we fight for, the unborn child’s or the mother’s.

  • Marty

    While those comments are awful, thats nothing new. If you search about gay issues on ‘Black Voices’ site or other leading blogs geared toward black people online, you’ll see a long, draining, endless supply of homophobic comments, how gay is gross, how gays need to be killed, how they would ‘jump’ those F word if they could, how we went against their God. The same Bible that was used to condemn black people for ages is the same Bible black people eagerly use to condemn gays.

  • JP

    Yes. Being a part of struggling LGBT community for gay rights and justice, we know how it feels like when the world turns against us. Therefore, if we can help in other good causes, we should lend a hand. However, I firmly believe that we should do so provided that the people we are supporting are not bigots and homophobes.

  • Peter Logan

    I absolutely believe in immigrant rights and know the Latino community is some of the hardest working people that exist. They are good people and Latina women are actually some of the most favorable polling group toward gay rights than any other group. The latinos I’ve known are fantastic people.

    Now I wish I could say them same for the black people I’ve encountered. Be it my days of being bullied by mainly the black kids in school all because I was gay, or facing serious discrimination at my job by black coworkers upon them realizing I was gay, me and many gays and lesbians I know have not had the most pleasent encounters by black community at large. Does that make all black people bad? Of course not. But I’m very liberal and love ALL people (latino, jewish, women, muslim) but the black people I’ve met sadly show know sense of understanding toward who we gays are.

  • Angelo

    While in school last semester, i ask the black student alliance club to help with an outreach event I was doing between out Gay straight student alliance league. I had friends who were black in the club geared for the black students on campus. We in te GSA helped them often with their fundraising. When we asked them for help, and to bridge the gap between the two communities, they refused to answer us. Finally one day I approached a friend who was part of their club asked what happened? He said many of the black student body felt really uncomfortable to be associated with a gay student alliance, and that some said it would go against their morals, and he was sad but couldn’t help it. Our GSA was sad, disappointed, frustrated cuz we did sooo much for them and yet they wouldn’t even extend an olive branch back. If you go to this school you know exactly what school I’m talking about as it got some buzz.

    Even with outreach, and trust! Our GSA did out reach with every club, some people just don’t seem to care about the story of anyone else but their own peeps. It’s actually kinda sad.

  • Licensetobearebel

    I know this sound bad but as it relates to Hispanics, I’m ALL about working hand in hand. I have a lot of latin friends and since we’re all young, they are all super cool with me being gay. They come from such cool families and yeah, they ARE hard working. So I’m down with working with latino rights. Black people however are totally usually more homophobic and sorry, if you aint got my back why should I have yours? Most kids my age are whatever about gays. They dont care and are cool with it, but you meet black kids and yeah, most are totally homophobic. So not gonna be helping someone who puts me down. Sorry bro

  • the other Greg

    I don’t get how this thread degenerated into an argument about (supposed) black homophobia or the lack thereof. Why did the subject even come up? The vast majority of blacks in the U.S. aren’t immigrants, or an “immigrant” group, in fact quite the opposite.

    Most U.S. blacks are descendants of people who were here long before the ancestors of most of the white Polish and Germans and Italians, etc. who mostly arrived here after the Civil War, not before. (Hey, I was beat up occasionally by the black kids in high school too, but I still managed to stay awake during history class.)

    But apparently, there’s a shortage of Mexicans in California?

    Apparently, the well-to-do, white, “liberal” gays who read Queerty are really, really pissed that Obama has deported their cheap pool boys?

  • Abel Costainstien

    There was a great article in Huffington Post about Hispanic Immigration groups working with gay rights groups. I LOVE it and am white, independent but also know that the Hispanic population is an important one for us to gain our rights. Hispanic young people are extremely open minded and well informed. Now I do agree with others that sadly the black community for the most part, is a lost cause. They have so much homophobia imbedded within the culture that it’s hard to shake off, but we can NOT and should not afford to lose worling with Hispanic coalitions.

  • UsualPlayers


    You are under no obligation, just like Mary Chenney isn’t, to do anything but sit back and take the benefits while whining about the process of building our actual rights and dealing more broadly with human rights (which as someone else pointed out helps us all because it lifts the boat)

    Frankly I am tired of this exchange

    The statements here are so out of whack with present political reality that I have to conclude its the same troll posting or the site trying to get more clicks

    Some of the comments have no relationship to pollign data, history, endorsements etc

    The statements about the black community which would take 10 seconds to google to find out that every one of the posters here has not bother to do so says it allto me

    The comments are all the same

    Lets find someone to demonize

    I have to conclude that the site is desperate for money

    Hence the begging for support of grants on the front page

  • Kingston

    @UsualPlayers: Google gay marriage black. Read a few articles, then the comments by identified black posters (with their facebook pages attached) then come and try to convince us with your stats (which are NEVER accurate) about black homophobia. It won’t be found in a manipulated stat. But will be found on the street and people’s words online. The black communities talk on LGBT is ugly, brutal and vicious, and I can pull up 12 links with comments in those articles to illustrate that point. Not all of us choose to walk blindly in this world, especially to matters that are dear for us- like human rights.

  • UsualPlayers


    I don’t need to Google comment sections, which is self selecting and biased, to figure out the state of black views on the topic. There is this magical trick called polling data and news articles that report on organizations like the NAACp endorsing marriage that tells me. There’s the support of the white Lesbian in Houston that tells me. There’s DCs electorate in difference to marriage equality passing there and them not getting rid of the pols who passed it

    I don’t need your theory and I don’t need anecdotes from comment boards. Anecdote is not the singular of data. They are wholy differenet animals

    You and other divide and conquer types (what few there are since these are all fake screen names to some degree with a few posters repeating the same talking points) have nothing

    By the way WHy you keep creating different screen names pretending to e a different person I do not know

    As someone else pointed out – its kind of obvious since there is no variation in thinking or writing style

  • UsualPlayers

    Oh if you dont realize – Houston is 1/3 black- most of which make up the Democratic base there

    They have elected a lesbian twice now mayor of the city

    In conservative Houston

    You people got nothing but divide and conquer as far as pretending blacks are a monolith

    ANd I am not even convince there is anyone here other than the site or a troll writing many of these comments anyway

  • Making up stuff is fun!

    @UsualPlayers: For what it’s worth, I do all my trolling under this name and this name alone.

  • Kev C

    @Making up stuff is fun!: UsualPlayers is just a facilitator and apologist for homophobes. Don’t let him troll you.

  • 1equalityUSA

    Joseph Campbell, when interviewed by Bill Moyers, said that black communities were hurt more so, because when they were taken from their communities, families torn apart, and cultural rituals banned, and they were treated as though mere property, it harmed them in ways much worse than just bigotry alone. The damage done to them was a cultural destruction that is not easily overcome. I heard this years ago when I was living in New York, in the height of the AIDS crisis, and it resonated with me. Forgive me if I didn’t recall it exactly as it was said, as that was nearly two and a half decades ago. I never considered the cultural destruction, the very root of a community, the belief systems denied having so profound an effect on a community. It’s one thing to be oppressed. It is quite another to be ripped apart from one’s foundation.

  • Al

    immigration reform – yes It all stems from DOMA. If marriage is supposed to be a state’s rights issue then let immigration rights be determined by the state you are married in.

  • joe

    @Nicholas:Are you saying we should join with anyone who isn’t a white male? It seems to me that many of these minorities are more anti-gay than many white people.

  • joe

    @hamoboy: So if i don’t agree with your definition of human rights i’m a bigot. I’m gay so i have to support open borders, marxism, abortion etc.?

  • BryanC

    @Jen: Amen. I feel the same way, I was once in love with a British man and he was in love with me, but because of DOMA it couldn’t be and he moved on to someone from his own country. That sure sucked, but I get why he did it.

  • joe

    @UsualPlayers: bait and switch can be played by the left also. For example yes i support abortion and killing babies but i also support gay marriage so see i’m not all bad.

  • joe

    @UsualPlayers: you are kidding? since when do blacks and latinos help gays? they vote against gay marriage whenever it comes up for a vote.

  • Mike

    We need to make the rainbow flag real. We, as a community, are about so much more than the images we celebrate at parades. Those representations may be fun and playful, but they are only fleeting images. There is work going on that promotes human dignity on a variety of fronts. If we are about being full, relevant people in this world, we are obliged to stand against injustice, where ever it raises its head.

    There is nothing more noble than caring for your brotheren. It is the moral thing to do, and when that effort has been expended, then it is time to dance on floats.

  • Selrah

    @1equalityUSA: Thank you for that. It seems no one is interested in “understanding” why people behave the way they do. I see far too much, “it’s not my responsibility to explain….” or “they’re never going to change anyway, so what does it matter?”

    Kind of defeatist if you ask me.

  • UsualPlayers

    I love how this thread is basically people live in a bubble reality in which they have not read any recent polling data on their claims, no nothing about history on the subject, know nothing about organization leadership by orgs like the NAACP etc

    They are right because their little brains here thought it up

    So folks like retarded Joe asks when have black people started to support gay rights as if he doesn’t have access to the internet or Google

    Retarded Kevin C says anyone who does not buy into his bigoted screeds must be a homophobe because we all know if you dont buy into the delusional states of a nut job like Kev C that means you are a homophobe

    Those are the “logical” two choices homophobe or agree with crazy Kevin C

    Then there are those along the thread who think we are having a conversation rather than dealing with the nutty right

  • UsualPlayers

    I am not repeating what I wrote in a longer post

    If you got to ask what is the state of views of gay rights then you have no clue

  • 1equalityUSA

    Selrah, Thank Joseph Campbell for that line of thought. I just repeated it, fairly ineptly. In the heat of battle it’s easy to get carried away. Soon it will be over and we will attain equality despite all of this bigotry and, to quote Joseph Campbell once again, we’ll wash our swords in the Sea.

  • Lefty

    Thank god, for once on this site, the majority of the commentors are in agreement with something which should be self-evident,
    And all the usual right wing morons are shown to be in the minority.
    Fuck them
    And the stupid fucking idiotic justifications for their prejudice (probably racist, given the issue is immigration) and moronic justifications are shown to be as baseless as any other right wing goon we have to deal with.

    If you think most of the issues mentioned here don’t affect you, then good for you – look after yourself – but they affect US and we will do what is right and decent.

  • hamoboy

    @joe: You obviously didn’t understand what I had written. All I said is that social justice and human rights are universal. You should look at issues of race, sex, disability, worker’s rights, etc, with the same lens of fairness and justice that you look upon LGBT rights (and would like others to do the same). And if you think that comment makes you a bigot, well, if the shoe fits…

  • Lefty

    Oh look i’ve been flagged. Don;t swear whatever you do: we’re not adults here, we’ve advertising to think about.
    Screw this site.
    I’ve had enough…

  • Lefty

    Comment on these serious issue which affect us all, but don’t be adult about it whatever you do.
    Think like children – the advertising revenue comes first.
    Remember that about this ever declining once-great site – we are children and can only express ourselves as such.
    Good luck everyone xxx

  • joe

    @UsualPlayers: Are you not telling a few lies yourself? You say polls show blacks in favor of marriage but they don’t vote that way. Look at how they voted in north carolina or for prop 8. If your going to point liberals who support gays of course you want to mention conservatives like Ted Olson and the late Andrew Briebart.

  • hamoboy

    Well, if I have learnt one thing from this comment thread, it’s that every oppressed group seems to have a majority of it’s members that want to bring some other group down. The [email protected], classism and sheer blind privilege I have read on this thread is just amazing. No one is excusing the high levels of homophobia in black communities and and black media. They are just trying to give solid reasons why it has come to such a state, and how helping black communities could alleviate it. Not to mention that that WASN’T even the point of the article, which was talking about immigration reform, which quickly brought cries of “them immigrants is teh homophobic!” without stopping for critical thought or analysis of any kind. Can we go back to the original question about immigrants without everyone spewing anti-black bias (deserved or not, you should have some self-awareness and shame for labelling an entire group because of the few you have encountered, that’s something homophobes do).

    @Lefty: “Once great site”? When was that friend?

  • joe

    @hamoboy: Why do you think mormons are anti-gay marriage? Is it because they white, poor and stupid?

  • hamoboy

    @joe: Stupid. Definitely stupid. They believe that Jesus died on the cross in Jerusalem and then flew to America. The Book of Mormon flies in the face of all archaeological evidence about the people who inhabited America before colonization. Any mormon is stupid. And you know what else is stupid? You thinking that that question is some kind of rebuttal.

  • UsualPlayers

    I saying if you can’t read polling data (the same kind your kind used in the past to claim blacks were against you) to know that the numbers are actually now pro-gay then I dont know how you managed to turn on your computer, type in the URL for this site and post here

    If you can do all of that, you can google gay rightsa nd blacks to see you are making shit up as far as the state of the general position

    But I am dealing with liars here so I dont expect you to do that

    I expect you to ignore the data in favor of making shit up

  • UsualPlayers

    some general numbers

    70-80 percent of blacks support ENDA
    70-80 percent supported the repeal of DADT
    similar numbers support housing protection for gays so that gays aren’t kicked out of apartments etc

    The only thin reed that the anti-black people had going for them until recently was the polling data about marriage

    THey could claim the numbers were out of whack with white voters in that they were higher in black communities, but these same people would ignore the higher percentage of support in other areas of gay rights

    That black people have elected a White Lesbian in Houston Texas 2 times in a row

    And other issues that paint a far more complicated picture than popular narrative provides

    And on the marriage issue we see a slow shift in our favor in the black communities

    With the NAACP endorsing 50 to 2

    ANd yet the best the anti-black brigade can come up with is some screeds that they found posted on line

    I can go to white sites to find the same screeds and yet no one would hear questioning the polls about white voters and where they stand on gay issues based on anecdotes like that. In fact if I did the same thing you would be here attacking me as anti-white

    Hell, Kev C has already tried to claim I am anti gay because I don’t like him attaching homophobia to his anti immigrant positions

    So when we look at the data- states like MD are finding black voters with higher levels of support of marriage equality than int he past- indeed higher than whites in thats tate. Why

    Some of it is probably Obama endorsing it and htat broke the damn as far as people feeling comfortable to say what they were lukewarm about before

    Gay rights aren’t really something a lot of them probably set around thinking about so they probably in the past just knee jerk voted with the narrative

    That’s changing

    The polli ng data backs that up

    The only people who seem unaware of this are folks like Joe whof ound this site posted his screeds here but can’t seem to find Google or the ability to type in the

  • Kev C

    @UsualPlayers: Everyone knows gays are bigots. You said so yourself. So it doesn’t make sense that blacks would support a bunch of gay racists, or “graycists”, as I like to call them.

  • Kingston

    Black people themselves ADMIT to being notoriousley pointing that FACT out does not make us racist, anymore than they themselves consistently voting against our rights makes them bonafide HOMOPHOBES.

    If ANYONE wants to argue that Marriage equality having an uphill battle in Maryland is not because of the black churches involvement, you are calculating, and hyper politically correct. Don’t expect all of us to subscribe to your delusion

  • Kingston

    If you’ve lived in predominant black neighborhoods…you don’t need polls or data to tell you how truly homophobia culture in that community is. No amount of sugar coating will alter our life experiences.

    The same group that shouts racism the loudest is the first to actively deny other groups their basic rights.

  • Gay Bacon

    Yes! Of course. The more sane and rational allies the better! Whether we like it or not, the racial make up of America is changing and in large part because of immigration . So creating a mutually beneficial relationship with this political coalition would be better than letting opponents of gay rights do that.

    Most of these people have done nothing but seek out a better life clearly defined by living in a country with opportunities to provide for oneself. There is nothing wrong that.

  • joe

    @hamoboy: I’d like to hear you call islam a stupid religion.

  • joe

    @UsualPlayers: OK I looked up your sites and yes the polls showed blacks favoring gay marriage but you seemed to have missed my point. I’m talking about actual elections where you cast a real vote in secret without having to justify your position to a pollster. It is here that blacks turn down marriage in huge numbers. Look up north carolina where they voted 2/3. in california they voted way above the state average. Remember the only poll that matters is on election day.


    Homophobic black people. [email protected] ist gay people both groups need to be shot in the face. Yes including the [email protected] ist gays commenting here. Peace.

  • UsualPlayers

    No joe, I didn’t miss the point that you are illogical

    How do we know what black vote in actual elections?

    Magic or by polling?

    If by polling then you have no fucking idea what you are talking about

    Its ironic you used NC- when in fact- the analysis here underscores that it was white rural voters that killed us in that state.

    We lost that by 60 something to 30 something with A LOT of White Evangelicals

    Are you seriously arguing that in order for blacks to be not a factor in your warped mind that black voters should vote differently on this issue than White Voters?

    You do realized from a basic logic perspective the problem with what you are saying right?\

    Of course you don’t

    In order to claim that something is a deciding factor like race Joe, you must show that there is a variation enough to cause it. Thats only the first step, but its crucial

    If, onthe other hand, as was the case in NC, the polling data showed that White voters, not black voters like you claim were more against marriage equality than Black voters, then your argument as a threshhold question falls a part

    I know I am wasting my time

    But there’s more

    Even if you show variation you got to show that the variation is caused by race

    I don’t think that just because more white voters in NC were against marriage equality than black voters that this was a product o them being white

    I think its has to do with the version of Christianity practiced in the SOuth

    The California poll has been proven wrong now – oh 50 million times- yet people like you keep citing a methodologically questionable poll

    Why do you need to cite a 4 year old poll Joe to be right here?

    That would be like me citing a poll from 2000 to say that Whites are still against interracial marriage although the polling data has changed

    This is really getting pretty sad how much some of you are wed to your prejudices

  • UsualPlayers

    Also, Joe, you are not only wrong about CA, and the polling data in NC, but I do note that you have nothing to say about polling data out of Nj or the evidence that is irrefutable on ENDA

    If blacks are so anti-gay Joe- why are they for ENDA by almost 80 percent?

    If they hate gays so much Joe why are they for the repeal of DADT

    And housing

    And electing gays to office

    I am not saying there isn’t homophobia Joe in the black community

    There’s a lot of work to be done

    I am just not being the bigots perspect of how to view the situation and what need sto be done about

    I also note how the subject matter has changed

    The oringial article asked whether we should as gay help on other issues

    Kev C in his bigots heart tries to exploit this

    He misses the point

    The point is that on allf ronts- whether homophobia, racial issues, rights to make a living, you name is

    there is a natural human rights element to all of these things

    Its like if I say health care is a human right many conservatives will bark at that idea

    yet its very true that basic to everyone whether gay black or immigrant is the right to live and if yo dont have health care you are less likely to live

    The wider point I am trying to make and have been aking is that one can see the prejudices that really undergird “we should be in it for ourselves” on display here

    All these false justifications which aren’t backed up by evidence only underscores this

  • Kev C

    @SEXXYJAMAICAN: This is exactly why we need immigration reform. To prevent Sexxy Jamaicans from killing gays.

    @UsualPlayers: We all know you came here to insult and attack gays. You’ve been doing it since your second post. When you have solutions and can keep yourself from calling gays big.ots, get back to us, mkay?

  • UsualPlayers

    KEv C

    I realize with the multiples voices you likely hear inside your head this is likely to be confusing:

    You aren’t “gays”

    You are just Kevin C

    When I pointed out what individuals are doing, I am not talking about an entire group

    So when I call you a bigot, I am not attacking gays

    Which would really be illogical anyway since I am gay

    Oh nevere mind, the voice in your head are probably telling you there are multiple gays in your head

  • Kev C

    @UsualPlayers: Here is all you need to know:

    This is my country. I don’t need to explain or justify myself to anyone. If you want to be homophobic and kill gays, do it in your own country and not mine. You won’t recieve our foreign aid, and you won’t be allowed to live and work in the USA. I don’t care if you’re black, muslim, hindu, atheist or christian. Piss off.

  • hamoboy

    @joe: Again with the stupidity. What’s your point? Why do you think me being reluctant about islam suddenly “proves” something, BTW I am not reluctant at all. All fundamentalist religions and their practitioners are stupid, Whether they are sharia court judges in the Middle East, or young earth creationists in North Carolina. Even moderate, supposedly “sophisticated” religions/denominations are pretty stupid, but as long as they don’t try to legislate morality like their more stupid kin, I’m OK with them.

  • the other Greg

    @Kev C: Kev, you need to look at it from UsualPlayers’ point of view. He’s been in a pissy mood ever since Obama deported his cleaning boys and pool boys. It’s gotten so bad he tried to skim his pool himself, but he fell in. Somebody from his golf club saw this and they’re still poking fun. Anyway now he’s concerned he will have to resort to hiring Puerto Ricans or something (gasp), which will not only entail paying them a fair and legal wage, but will mean UsualPlayers will need to fill out those annoying W-4 and W-2 forms. (As you might guess from his posts, paperwork is not exactly his forte.) Dammit, it’s a HUMAN RIGHT to exploit cheap labor… uh, I mean, to “save” people from whatever poor pitiful pathetic countries they are from (they’re all the same, after all, even if like Mexico they export oil!)… and then, to pat yourself on the back over what a good “liberal” you are and how anyone who criticizes you, must be not really a liberal at all and be a “bigot”… even if this means that, you know, 2/3 of the Democratic Party, or 2/3 of union members, or 3/4 of gay people, or whatever… dammit, they’re all bigots!

    Kev, you white trash bigot, you must respect your superiors – the well-to-do, “real liberal” gays of the 1%!

    (But hey Kev – at least nobody in this thread has called you “KFC”!)


    @Kev C: If you are a gay bigot then of course I have no problem with it. Bigots are a waste of space.

  • UsualPlayers

    Kev C, I know you probably believe posting under different screen names means its a diffierent voice in your head responding rather than just you, but honestly it really is just you

  • Kev C

    @the other Greg: That’s rich. But UsualPlayers is an ideologue and altruist. He might strap a bomb onto his chest or join the black bloc, not realizing the long homophobic history of the anti-fascists. His MP3 collection consist of 60% punk & speed metal, 10% EDM/dubstep, 10% rap and reggae, 10% Irish folk protest songs, and 10% genuine arabic music.

  • the other Greg

    @UsualPlayers: Ha ha, I am definitely not KevC, in fact I’ve had my disagreements with KevC many times. This is well-documented and you can look it up. (Also note that I’m a registered “member” which is easy to do, so I don’t know why more don’t do it.)

    It’s odd how your main “argument” against KevC or anyone who disagrees with you is, You only speak for yourself, you’re just one (bigoted) individual, and if anyone agrees with KevC, they must actually BE KevC pretending to be someone else! But your opinion of yourself is apparently, I speak for ALL gay people… except of course, the 3/4 of them who are “bigots”!

    @Kev C: Maybe, but I’m not so sure. He may be into show tunes, and he seems to me to be the usual wealthy, arrogant, pseudo-educated, pseudo-liberal gay guy who thinks cleaning (and pool-cleaning) is beneath him. He has a Latino fetish, of course, so he, um, cheerfully makes use of them in “other ways” (heh heh). But if he were forced to do taxes on them and pay them a fair and legal wage, in that case it wouldn’t be quite “legal” if you catch my drift unless he lives in certain counties in Nevada.

    And again, I don’t get how this thread degenerated into a pointless discussion about (supposed) black homophobia or the lack thereof, which in the U.S. is irrelevant or at least, extremely tangential to the subject of immigration.

  • joe

    @UsualPlayers:So i am wrong about the vote in north carolina and california well then tell me who is responsible for those elections. You seem determined to prove that blacks are not homophobic and we shouldn’t blame them for prop 8. Do you feel the same about mormons that we shouldn’t fault them for prop 8. What would be your reaction if i told you that republicans are not homophobic.

  • the other Greg

    I’ve re-read the comments and besides being mostly an incoherent mess – plus the pointless digression into supposed black homophobia – no one actually defines what “immigration reform” should mean.

    UsualPlayers doesn’t define it either; he sticks to the usual pseudo-liberal mantra that good people are for it… whatever the hell it IS, exactly.

    Example: Obama’s extending work rights to those brought illegally to the U.S. as children. This is tremendously popular with the public: 65% support it. It strikes the public as fair and practical. Sending a young person “back” to a country he doesn’t remember, and where he may not even speak the language, is ridiculous.

    Example: Getting rid of DOMA and normalizing the immigration process for gay, bi-national couples. There is a common misconception that heteros get some kind of an automatic pass with this stuff, and if they get married to a foreigner, the foreigner is automatically in. No, it’s much more complex than that. But yeah, the process could be standardized for gay couples.

    Example: UsualPlayers’ apparent desire for open borders (and cheap pool cleaners) and amnesty for ALL the 12 million illegals already here. A moot point, since you’ll never get a majority in Congress, or any president of whatever party, to go along with such an insane idea. Scream “bigot” at them all you want, it won’t work.

    Irrelevant: whether KevC was beat up too much by the black boys in his lousy public high school, or beat up just the right amount. (I’m just guessing on this one, based on his Queerty posting history!)

    On the left we’re always supposed to look to Europe for examples. Well the EU takes great pains to keep illegal immigrants out: the Russians and Eastern Europeans on the one side, the Africans always trying to cross into Spain, etc. The EU throws them the f*ck out. But there is an immigration process, and refugee status, and lots of legal immigrants (who are treated much less well than in the U.S. or Canada, for the most part).

    But as I said earlier, UsualPlayers hasn’t bothered to define WHAT exactly he would like to see happen with immigration. If he would like to be specific, he’s free to do so.

  • Kev C

    @the other Greg: That describes as many upper suburban Repubs as it does upper suburban Dems with their pool boys and golf caddies. But Obama’s support for gay marriage is something that is being talked about in black churches. Let’s just see how many turn up to vote for Obama this fall. I think their turnout will be a definitive measure of black support for gays. If support is strong, all the gays can call themselves the new blacks and enjoy their black-washing by dressing up in black-face.

  • Sam

    @Some Random Guy: you make a GREAT point. the timing of this support to immigration reform, when the issue has been more or less resolved by the recent decission of the president, is unbelievably self serving of the interests of upper middle class white men.

    It is also interesting how upper class white gay men try to protect their class interest against other working class whites by pretending to want to help immigrants!

  • Ewan

    Gay people should stand in solidarity with immigrants and any oppressed group. The idea that we shouldn’t and that gay people are being co-opted by the left, whatever that actually means, comes from the sort of gutless queer that thinks that a wedding ring, two point four schitzus and a condo is the end goal. The end goal is not having folk like us slaughtered en mass, world wide. That’ll take a global response, and if you think “well it doesn’t happen in our country,” then you’re a drooling, ruling class yes man and part of the problem. Abolish all borders.

  • joe

    @Ewan: If we’re going to abolish borders then all countries should do it. “a drooling, ruling class” that sounds like marxism. The problem withsome gays is that they believe Karl Marx is the solution to all our problems.

  • KW

    @Ewan: So who is going to decide for you precisely WHO counts as oppressed? And all immigrants? Yeah right – have you seen what’s happening in Mexico at the moments? Tens of thousands of people are dying, and you want the borders open so that they can freely enter the US?!

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