Tonight Joy Behar welcomed two of the most disingenuous homosexual “experts” (who happen to be homosexuals themselves) on her program to debate, or whatever, Hollywood’s homophobia. There’s Ramin Setoodeh, the Newsweek scribe who, seven months after making terrible arguments about gay actors made more terrible arguments about gay actors. And publicist Howard Bragman, who only says nice things about other gays when they pay him. My god these men are awful. And between Setoodeh trying to reinvent himself as a defender of gay actors (after trampling all over them), and Bragman attacking and laughing at (ahem, non-paying client) Rupert Everett for the way plastic surgery has changed his appearance (aren’t you the same bully who’s about to help people come out, you fucking jerk?), I’m not sure who’s worse. But I do know that when it comes to a conversation about what’s good for gays in Hollywood, neither of these men are it.
Obama DID say DADT would happen on his watch... (John From England)
Nice one Joy.
christopher di spirito
Joy, Joy, Joy. What am I going to do with you? You’re getting lazy and it ain’t pretty.
edgyguy1426
Did Bragman’s show ever materialize?
alan brickman
Please deport these two to the Middle East!!
Liam
Come on people. These guys are correct. Let’s not pretend that homophobia does not exist. Most straight people in America only see “gay” on the screen once a celebrity comes out. Look how difficult it has been for other minorities to find roles in mainstream television & movies.
Name two openly gay men who are getting Leading Man roles after coming out? Can you even name one?
I have been an out, proud, gay man since I was 16 years old. I still get comments like you don’t act/sound/look gay” to which I reply “this is what gays look/act/sound like”…. but the worst thing I ever heard was “I didn’t know you were gay when I hired you”… while I was being fired!
This happened in 2003 and I was devastated. And not one single “Gay Rights” organization was willing to help me (I tried them all) and the California Department of Fair Labor and Housing was just as homophobic as my previous employers. I was shocked but I learned a very important lesson. We have a huge amount of work to do to combat homophobia in this country.
We are talking about actors getting roles in Hollywood. If being openly gay has affected me (a “regular” person in America)- of course it is going to affect actors in Hollywood trying to get work!
jackieohboy
I clicked all your links on Bragman and nothing he has done really seems that bad. Why does this site hate him so much? Is it because Queerty isn’t on his payroll?
redball
Just watched the clip and I don’t see anything so controversial being said here. Moving on!
Adam
This is fucking stupid, i am officially done with this site, really are we reduced to cursing in “news” when we don’t agree with the opinions of our peers
Jaroslaw
I agree Adam, I don’t hear anything “awful”. Sounds like the truth to me. Howard did say things are changing, especially with the younger viewers. Still, there are so many people who are nasty for no reason here. On another post someone said to me “Get a Life” when I said essentially the same thing as the main post AND another poster relayed his life experience.( but no comment to the other poster) Why the negative nancy had to say that to me when I wasn’t even complaining makes it incomprehensible. I do not see this negative interaction on other sites. I may leave here after all.
jason
GLAAD has been lazy with liberal Hollywood. In fact, the whole of Gay Inc has been lazy. Gay Inc has been too busy criticizing conservatives while the liberals in Hollywood have been making joke staples of us in almost every movie.
I honestly can’t think of one Hollywood movie in the last year where our love has been integrated into the theme of the movie in a sexy or respectful way. To the liberals in Hollywood, we cannot be erotic and we can’t be ordinary.
hephaestion
Everything they said in this video is true.
jason
Most men in society are bisexually oriented. They’re neither exclusively homosexually oriented nor exclusively heterosexually oriented.
The real war is on the homosexual interaction as a concept. Hollywood liberals fear it. They don’t want it to be a part of anyone. This is understandable when you consider that Hollywood was built on the concept of the heterosexual interaction. Hollywood is about marketing the heterosexual interaction.
The homosexual interaction represents a threat to Hollywood. It’s a stigmatized concept, and cannot make money for the studios compared with the heterosexual concept. You cannot make money from the marketing of a stigma. Who’s going to buy it?
The only reason Hollywood has cosied up to us over the years is because it knows that we are the only people who can bring Hollywood down. We are in the tent and can bring the whole damn thing down. We made the stars – we put make-up on their faces, we dressed them, we made them the shimmering lights that they became.
If we decide to turn feral against Hollywood, it’s finished. Hollywood will be over faster than you can say “jack rabbit”.
jason
One of the tricks to bringing down Hollywood is to go after the female actors. It’s the females who sustain Hollywood. They sustain its heteronormativity.
Enron
Ramin Setoodeh is handsome.
robert in NYC
Liam, No. 5…I so agree with you. At least Rupert Everett had the guts and the courage to stick his neck out knowing it would ruin his prospects in Hollywood and all of the gay apologists who believe there is no homophobia end up bashing him and making snide remarks about his plastic surgery and his “whining”. I’d like to know what they’ve done to tackle homophobia lately and if they’d be prepared to put their careers on the line by not only coming out but by calling out anyone on their homophobia including their employers. They need to look in the mirror and ask themselves are they any better than Rupert Everett? I think the answer would be a resounding no.
Obama DID say DADT would happen on his watch... (John From England)
@Jaroslaw: @Adam: @Liam:
Every other site including Gawker-towleroad, afterelton-Inc Queerty are all inagreement about these douches.
I’m not sure what you are reading but where in this article does it say that we don’t all know how homophobic Hollyweird is?
The issue all these sites had was with asking these two idiots to be speaking about the issue when both have done it in a really opportunistic or self hating way.
Furthermore, what beefed towleroad and afterelton was the missed opportunity…..again…to actually have some good debate about the issue. That homophobic idiot Ramin knows exactly why gay actors aren’t chosen to play gay roles, the prick also knows that half of Hollyweird is closeted but why doesn’t he say that?
These guys are saying what NO ONE in Hollyweird has been saying. This is NOTHING new.
What is new is trying to understand how somewhere as vocally liberal-allegedly-and gay-we know for a fact most of the agents are gay, as well as some writers, hairdressers Inc producers-would take part in all this homophobia in Hollyweird?
Furthermore, these fame whores could have touched on something ted Casablanca has been saying for decades but no one would listen, these gay actors who are out and unlike some-Jakey G anyone?-refuse to get a beard, have it in their clause that they can’t come out because this would ruin the film for everyone and it would bomb etc etc
I think what has been interesting was that blind item about the lesbian who was so upset by all the gay suicides she wanted to come out but her agent said she would risk the shows success and would let all the others down.
The most depressing thing about this homophobia in Hollyweird which Ramin didn’t even touch on was how many gay people are actually working there. If your speaking to a housewife in the Midwest, she doesn’t know this, so for her, seeing lots of gay movies is ‘sticking it in our faces’.
It’s like with fashion. You have this rabidly homophobic republican or black pastor spewing destructive lies about gay people to their flock, whilst wearing designer clothes made 80% by gay people.
Simple stuff like this never gets called out and the irony is stupefying.
It’s like those White suburban kids who listen to hip hop and think all blacks are degenerate and can’t see the hypocrisy in their actions.
kayla
Joy Behar is one of the most stupid women on television. In fact, the whole crew over at The View seem mildly retarded (Though Whoopi seems to have a few working brain cells)These women know nothing about anything!!! How they got where they are, is a mystery wrapped in a riddle inside an enigma…
Jaroslaw
#16 – If Bragman and Setoodeh said offensive things previously that has nothing to do with this video clip. Or if you think it does tell why, but the title is “Dumb & Dumber discuss…” and the majority here think they spoke the truth and did not say anything offensive.
Bragman DID say there were closeted Gays in Hollywood, when he made the “joke” about sleeping with some but he wasn’t going to kiss and tell.
You make some other good points but I don’t know if it is Bragman or Setoodeh’s job to fix it all in a two minute TV segment. (yet you seem to contradict yourself in sentence #3 “where does it say we are not aware of how homophobic Hollywierd is?”)
My original thought stands- I do not see anything offensive here. You should check out David Berkowitz – he was an “enemy” of Gay people and accused of being anti everything , anti sex, etc. because he wanted Gay men to wear condoms. Don’t be so quick to jump on the train of conformity.
David Ehrenstein
JEEZ but this is so damned triesome!
There are opny gay acotrs on Broadway who can play any role the want and they’re big stars.
There are opnly gay actors on television who can play any role they want and are big stars.
Consequently there’s no question that it’s only a matter of — very short — time before there will be only gay actros in the movies who can play any role they want and be big stars.
Rupert Everett is a pathetic has-been.
Ramin Setoodeh is a piece of shit.
And I can’t comprehend why Queety hates Howard so much.
Daez
Its not even that you can’t be an out gay man and act. Its just that you can’t be an out gay man and be A-list at this point. Those that chose not to come out do so because they trade their sexuality for their chance to get ahead.
Obama DID say DADT would happen on his watch... (John From England)
@Jaroslaw:
I’m not contradicting myself. I’m just stating that issue he is not that Hollyweird isn’t homophobic or messed up but that these two people were used at talking points when both have serious issues.
Brag man is an opportunist who only sees the dollar signs and doesn’t care about how many gay actors are desperately unhappy in the closet. What exactly is he doing? I remember that story on toothy tile which we all thought was Jakey g and how miserable he was getting-does anyone help this guys? Nah it’s just the bottom line.
If Bragman can take himself and decide to speak publicly about gay actors on a national show, then he is taking himself seriously as someone who cares about the issue and understands it. A talking head on the issue. So he needs to be called up when he doesn’t make the most out of those 2 minutes.
Ramin, we all know about that creep and his sh*tty articles. He’s a really bad writer and gives no solutions nor bases any of his opinions on anything honest or empathetic. So much self hate. Again, he accepted to go on this show to be a talking head and the when asked why Hollyweird is like that, he say ‘I dunno’ really? Uh huh. Thanks but no thanks.
There was a really good article by this black gay writer in the advocate about the new Tyler perry film ‘for colored women’.
It was a really well thought, rounded, factual and insightful piece on the self hating ways of Perry, which he gave us some intelligent arguments about the bigger picture on how many gays either in the spotlight or behind the scenes have so many opportunities to make that difference but they don’t,in fact what many do is reinforce that stereotype.
Sad.
Cam
Ugh, Joy Behar reminds me of those news shows that need a viewpoint from SOMEBODY on whatever issue and think…
“Oh, Lois Farrakan is black so we’ll have him on to speak for the black entire black community”, or oh, we’ll have Eva Longoria speak for the entire Mexican American Community.
I wonder if Joy Behar would like it if another show talking about women’s issues had on Ann Coulter to speak for all women because she was a woman.
Franky
Although the way both of these men presented their arguments may not be ideal to some, the gist of the overall argument is mostly correct.
Hollywood isn’t necessarily homophobic, though. It’s heterosexist, which is a little different. Hollywood is heterosexist because society is heterosexist, and because the true bank rollers, Jewish/Christian straight white males, don’t want to be represented by LGBT folk. A lot of people say Hollywood is run by gays, and that’s true to some extent, most of the actors/actresses, directors, fashion/hair people, are generally gay/lesbian/bi/gay for pay/open sexually etc. But the true movers and shakers are the studios and production companies, the agents, and these people do not accept homosexuality, to put it flatly, unless it’s homosexuality used in a way that helps them, and in general, damages us. They view homosexuality as a detriment. And that’s not going to change until they don’t see open LGBT folk as a potential risk to their business.
Liam
As I stated in my first post here, I have been openly gay since I was 16 years old. That was in 1984 (which was a very different environment than it is today). We have made some progress as far as acceptance in America.
But why are we so insistent that “all of the gay actors in Hollywood come out of the closet”?
Most of the gay people I have know both personally and professionally (I worked in retail) are closeted in some way (either at work or at home). And I have dated countless men who are either not out at work or to their families (or both).
I would love to live in a world where every person was free to openly express their sexual persuasion without recrimination. But we do not live in that world.
I applaud the two gentlemen in the article for bringing these issues to light and I encourage each individual in my own life to live their lives openly. But I also understand why someone would want to stay hidden since we live in a society that still treats us as second class citizens.
Jaroslaw
#21 (John from England) Your explanation (first sentence) isn’t any clearer than what you did on the previous post, so I don’t have a clue what you’re trying to say.
I never said Bragman wasn’t an opportunist, but I didn’t think that was the topic we were discussing here. He did say some positive things.
I’m going to read Setoodeh’s other articles since everyone seems to hate him so much, but this is way too much vitriol. You know another blogger said he’s “worse than the religious right!” Come on already… THAT is truly not believable.
As to everyone including you jumping on “I dunno” …..that was just a phrase to segueway to his thoughts. He wasn’t really saying “I DON’T KNOW.” Sheesh. Let’s be objective. It does no one any good to play the “I already don’t like him so he can do no right or I do like him so he can do no wrong – game.”
Marcus
@David Ehrenstein: I don’t get the Howard hate, either. Maybe I missed something.
Franky
@Liam: Living your life with a cloud of stigma or in fear won’t change things for the better, though, and generally isn’t a happy way to live. But you experienced the early phases of your life in a different time than I did/grew up in, so I guess it’s understandable. I just don’t think allowing others to dictate your life in such a way is the correct answer.
Henry Holland
A lot of people say Hollywood is run by gays, and that’s true to some extent, most of the actors/actresses, directors, fashion/hair people, are generally gay/lesbian/bi/gay for pay/open sexually etc.
That’s simply not true, that’s a fantasy we Gays have built up. “Most of the actors/actresses”? That’s simply not true by any objective standard. Obviously there’s gay actors, directors, set dressers and agents and all that, but straight Jewish males still dominate the US movie industry almost 100 years after its founding. The people with real power are straight Jewish dudes and as for the crews –the camera crews, the lighting guys etc.– they are almost totally straight and conservative.
I live across the street from MacArthur Park and on the SW edge of it, there’s an old hotel called the Park Plaza that was built in the 20’s that’s used for period shoots and interior scenes (anything requiring a big ballroom especially). There’s film crews there all the time and the shit I hear from the crews as I walk around or go to where I park my car is NOT gay friendly.
Franky
@Henry Holland: Actually, if you saw my post, that’s what I said. That there are a lot of gay actors but they aren’t the real movers and shakers, it’s conservative white heterosexual Jewish/Christian men.
And yes, the “behind the scenes” people are usually straight, and there are numerous instances I’ve read of homophobic and also racist speech on set from these individuals. They usually are 35 yr. old typical beer drinking types, from what I’ve heard of these people. That, or nerdy dudes. And they act sort of fraternity “brah”-ish. That’s obviously another determining factor in the belief that many actors don’t feel as if they’d be supported if they came out.
Franky
Oh, and as for a lot of actors being gay, that’s not a fantasy. One of my friendly acquaintances is a high rate rent boy. I could name one by one by one the guys he and others have slept with in Hollywood, but that’s trashy. But obviously, if the gays ran Hollywood, fewer would be so worried and basically demanded to not do so.
Jaroslaw
Liam – to say it another way, I feel your pain, but….someone has to sacrifice or nothing changes. I came out at work AND put up a bulletin board (and got a lot of grief I might add). A small but significant number of people no longer talk to me, but that is the price of standing up for one’s beliefs. But I’m not as strident as a certain shrill, obnoxious, relentless child here so I wouldn’t say “jeopardize your job over it.” Luckily I didn’t have to do that.
Liam
@Jaroslaw: I agree with you. I have never been closeted. I will never be in the closet….
my experience at that job in 2003 happened like this…. A female coworker asked “do you have a girlfriend?”, I replied “no”, she then asked “why not?” I replied “because I am gay”.
My boss then told me that he didn’t know I was gay when I was hired, (closeted) coworkers told me that it was a “don’t ask, don’t tell” environment, other people refused to work with me because they were “uncomfortable” with gay people. And I was fired.
This experience did not make me back down from my belief that everyone should be able to live openly. But it did make me realize that we currently live in a world where very few people feel any compassion for a person who is fired for being gay (including other gay people).
If every closeted actor came out, it would in fact help our cause in the long term. But it will most certainly hurt those individuals today. That is the reality of the world we live in (especially in Hollywood) today.
jack
Is this the same Queerty that gushes over all things Glee because they sing show tunes & have cute boys? Oh right, those cloying old stereotypes are just fine. Heaven forbid two guys would take a pass on the Rainbow Koo-Aid, get on Joy’s show and tell it like it is.
Jaroslaw
32 Liam – here’s another thought. I was unfairly fired from a job I loved (not for being Gay though) and it hurt for a long time. But in the long run it turned out to be a blessing. I make much more money now and have much better job security. So that place that you got fired from wasn’t for you anyhow. And (sadly) if none of the organizations helped you, I can only hope that it was because they didn’t think they could win. They have always had limited resources. Failing that, if it ever happens again, make sure you get as many friends (including high profile) to call them and ask why they won’t help you. I always make it a point to volunteer someplace so that if necessary, the Mayor, Minister or someone high profile can write a letter on my behalf.
Liam
Jaroslaw, yes you are correct that I am better off without having to deal with those people, and you are also correct that every gay rights group that I contacted told me that my case was either too small and/or too hard to prove…
You are very lucky to have found another job and become more successful. I unfortunately have had the opposite experience than you. I have struggled to find a full-time job in this economy and I now work 3-4 different freelance jobs and make less than 50% of what I used to make (and also have no benefits).
That is why I would be extremely reluctant to tell someone else to risk their livelihood for the betterment of all the other gays in our community…
Oh boy
So he got a job writing for a magazine and that makes him an authority on gaya in Hollywood?
He has never been an agent, actor, director…so how does he know fuck?
Matthew Rettenmund
Joy Behar is smart and empathetic.
Ramin Setoodeh is a tool.
Howard Bragman is an opportunist.
To the commenters: There is nothing wrong with noting that it’s currently hard to be an out gay leading man, but there’s a lot wrong with accepting that. Fame and fortune over the truth and gay visibility? No thanks.
Jaroslaw
So Matthew, when Liam got fired for being open, I guess you’ll be stepping to pay his bills?
Jaroslaw
Oh, Liam # 35 I didn’t see your answer. I’m very sorry that you had that experience -I guess Matthew Rattyman didn’t see it either. Damn, it is nice that life is so simple for some. Black & white, no grey. Out & proud, no exceptions.
Hmmmmm. I have a major health condition and if I had to play straight for insurance, (On the Job, never with interpersonal relationships) I’m sorry I would. When I go to ER when I can’t tell if there is a problem and nothing is found, it is still $5000 due to expensive tests. One time, they did an experimental procedure (no help I’m afraid) and the bill was $50 K.
Jaroslaw
Liam – you may not have time working 4 jobs, but volunteer also if you possibly can. You network and something may open up there too. If nothing else, it is a good reminder that others have it worse! Which is really helpful for our mental health too.
Have you thought about starting your own business? My mom used to do really well with her cleaning business before she went back to school to become a teacher. She was so well liked, she had to turn clients away. Good luck. I mean it.
Liam
Jaroslaw,
Thanks for having my back. Two of my freelance jobs are actually working for myself (one in design and one as an artist). And my other two freelance positions I received by networking through volunteering. I have met many really wonderful people through these experiences. But I am still an independent contractor and being able to afford insurance is pretty tough. Not to mention having to pay my own Social Security Tax and not being eligible for unemployment insurance when there is no work or work slows down….
I live in Glendale CA (right near Hollywood). And that town is overflowing with unemployed actors.
The very few who are actually working (or working regularly) are extremely lucky and that is another reason I can understand their not being willing to risk future jobs by coming out publicly.
I feel that as long as a closeted politician or celebrity is not hindering our cause then they have a right to privacy when it comes to their deciding not to come out.
Jaroslaw
Welcome Liam. Hey, half serious, half joking: – the job I have now may be privatized. If I have to go back to working for human services as a worker with 1000 cases, I’m going on a medical retirement. Need a roommate with a pension? 🙂 I visited California 3 times and I just was beside myself for about a month when I came back, since that is all I could think of. (moving there) I was really shocked when I went on the state website for jobs and the qualifications needed were immense relative to the salary! I remember a water engineer made about what I make (50K) but the costs to live in Michigan are less than 1/2 of what they are in California. Well, in LA/Hollywood where I would want to live. I actually had some clients live where it is relatively cheap but then you had to drive two hours to your job. Which is doable if gas isn’t $3.50 a gallon…..
Jaroslaw
Not sure why you added your last sentence, but yes, as long at the politician is not living a double life and hindering the cause, they have the right to decide if they come out.
Liam
Jaroslaw, I think you would love it here. But when I was living in the North East and I interviewed with Disney (10 years ago) they wanted to pay me the same amount even though the cost of living in Southern California is much higher than New England…
Also, I have tried the roommate thing I have to say I do enjoy living alone.
But there are people who have a lot of money so one of my design jobs (which is very, very infrequent) also pays very well. And being so close to the entertainment industry I do work with actors, writers and directors occasionally.
Which is probably why I understand that not everyone wants their personal life open for tabloid fodder… and that actually working in the industry and making a decent living here is a struggle.
I added the last sentence (in my previous post) because although I have changed my original position on the need for every gay celebrity to be out of the closet as I have gotten older… I still don’t have a problem with certain celebrities (and religious or political leaders) being shown as hypocrites.
Jaroslaw
Liam – can’t blame a guy for trying. LA is just too expensive to live the way I want to, by myself. Rent money will pay for your health insurance premiums….. 🙂
Jaroslaw
Gosh I can write badly occasionally – clarification of #42- that would be clients (HERE) who formerly lived in California and they were describing to me what they had to do to make it on a limited income. Anytime someone tells me they used to live in California, I get to relive my visits briefly! Yes, I know I would love living there. I loved every minute of my visits. Even the gritty parts of LA are much cleaner, strangely, than Detroit’s worse parts. Yeah, I did get what you mean about “requiring” celebritys/politicians to come out it just didn’t initially make sense to me why you added it but I get it now. Quick odd story – I was on the bus to visit a museum of mental health (I didn’t know prior to it was run by Scientology but it was right next to many other things I was also visiting) and this guy, very large and filthy gets on. He smelled so bad the whole bus was yelling and he actually got off on the next stop. I felt sorta sorry, but hey even if he was really sick and limited motion, he coulda at least tried – got a brush with a long handle for his feet etc. THAT has never happened to me on a bus before!
Jaroslaw
we should probably continue this privately – go to netflix, look up “is it just me” look for the review with the antique toasters. Click on the profile, my home email is there.