freedoms v. protections

SHOCK: British Churches Forced to Hire Gays


Or at least not discriminate against them in hiring decisions. This is a big, big deal. That little separation between church and state doesn’t just keep God out of the classroom; it protects churches and synagogues from violating their own beliefs by being forced to adhere to anti-discrimination laws. And with this move, Britain is opening the door for endless conservative scare tactics about how gay protections are ruinous for religion.

To be clear, Britain’s new Equality Bill does protect churches in some regard. “Those who lead the liturgy or spend the majority of the time teaching doctrine, such as ministers, bishops and their equivalents,” will not be subject to non-discrimination rules. But the law makes looser the definition of other auxiliary staff members, such as receptionists and accountants as well as janitors and drivers. Essentially, any church employee not directly involved in advocating the religion will be subject to the new rules.

Religious organizations, of course, argue that every staffer is integral to their operation, and that they shouldn’t have to employ anyone who doesn’t accept their faith, whether it comes to beliefs on abortion, gay marriage, or whether you can eat shellfish. The Equality Bill no longer gives them that option.

Is this good news for protecting against discrimination? Or over-reaching on religious freedoms?

While this law certainly doesn’t apply to the U.S., its mere existence will only amplify religious conservatives here who already see the same-sex marriage push as an affront to their beliefs (even though no state is requiring priests to conduct gay weddings), as well as anti-discrimination laws impeding on their right to whatever faith they choose, no matter how pro-hate it may be.

Then again, there’s always the question: What homo would want to work at a church that hates him?

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  • Strepsi

    RE: your last line: ‘What homo would want to work at a church that hates him?”

    Never min work, how about believe? I think that every time I meed a “gay Baptist”, or moreso a “gay Catholic” — of which there are many here in Canada. I mean, if you are Catholic, you believe the Church’s word is God’s law. So if the Church says you can not be Catholic and homosexual, then by definition you can not be Catholic and homosexual. No?

  • Jason

    The US isn’t Britain, though. An awful lot of things in the Constitution were written specifically to position the United States in a different way from them (our First Amendment protections, for example, are far more robust). I’m gay and all for equality but I am perfectly happy to let the churches do what they will as long as I have equal rights under the law, because that’s a concept this country was founded on.

  • Jamie

    “Gay Catholics” tend to believe most of the basic tenets of the faith except the one that says homosexuality is a sin. I grew up Catholic and it’s very easy to reconcile that the Church is just wrong on “this issue.” Look at how many “Catholics” are pro-choice. Same deal.

  • Jamie

    Er, #3 is to STREPSI.

  • strumpetwindsock

    Do you know any person who is completely free from contradiction?
    For that matter, have you ever been attracted to someone who was bad for you, but you couldn’t help it?

    I don’t know too many Catholics who support torturing and burning heretics any more, but that used to be common practice. The fact that people within their ranks go against the dogma is what has changed most of these organizations in the past, and will hopefully be the driving force in the future.

    So you should be THANKFUL for those fools, not question them.

    Ultimately it is nobody’s fucking business what anyone else believes. If I want to be a gay Jehovah’s Witness and give all my money to the GOP that is not for anyone else to sort out.

  • strumpetwindsock


    True.. there’s a definite contrast between countries founded on the common good and those founded on individual liberty.

    Neither system is superior, and both have their benefits and shortcomings.

    If you want the ultimate in liberty for example, go to Somalia.

  • Attmay

    Most religions, especially romanism, are already ruinous, especially to little boys.

    Gay bashing death cults deserve no legal protections whatsoever.

  • strumpetwindsock


    Great strategy!

    Remind me to get to work on that one right away.

    Lets see… destroy Roman Catholic Church on Friday.

    What’s next?

  • schlukitz


    “Most religions, especially Romanism, are already ruinous, especially to little boys.”

    A little follow-up to your observation, Attmay.


    “I don’t know too many Catholics who support torturing and burning heretics any more, but that used to be common practice.”

    Perhaps. But then, the Roman Catholic Church has not exactly evolved into a model of virtue either. See above link.

    “Ultimately it is nobody’s fucking business what anyone else believes. If I want to be a gay Jehovah’s Witness and give all my money to the GOP that is not for anyone else to sort out.”

    Agreed. So long as that money is not used to tell (order) other people how to live or take away the rights of a minority group as happened with Prop. 8 in California.

    Then we, as a discriminated against minority group, have every right to “sort” it out, identify and hold those people responsible for the terrible wrongs that they commit in the name of their religious beliefs and their God.

  • John C

    “While this law certainly doesn’t apply to the U.S., its mere existence will only amplify religious conservatives here who already see the same-sex marriage push as an affront to their beliefs”

    So you’d prefer that a worker in a British church group be sacked because he or she hadn’t “left the lifestyle” as the Christian Institute puts it? How does that help advance gay rights?

    Britain has civil unions, gays in the military, employment equality and Charles Darwin’s picture on the back of every ten pound note.

    America has Prop 8, DODA, Fred Phelps and “In God We Trust” on the back of every dollar bill. That’s a great separation of church and state you have there.

  • strumpetwindsock


    “Perhaps. But then, the Roman Catholic Church has not exactly evolved into a model of virtue”

    Yeah, I also know they can’t be trusted with the smallest bot of political power, but the fact is they are not the same organization as they were 500 years ago.

    And if we’re pointing fingers the gay community is not without its flaws either.

    My point is that these homosexual Catholics are probably doing a bit more to change things than the armchair quarterbacks who are calling them down for being confused.

  • schlukitz


    “but the fact is they are not the same organization as they were 500 years ago.”

    Yes. Thanks to the implementation of secular laws that make sexual abuse of minors, public flogging, torture and the burning of heretics (including gays) at the stake.

    The fact remains. The Roman Catholic Church has a long way to go before they win any medals for humanism and the equality of mankind.

  • strumpetwindsock

    I was not contesting that – though there are Roman Catholic believers and organizations under the umbrella of catholicism which DO humanitarian work (not sure how many medals they have pinned to their tit).

    The point I was making was about the Roman Catholics laity (which is very different from their hierarchy), many of whom DO who support gay rights, abortion rights and other freedoms which are contrary to church dogma.

    The fact is that group of people do not deserve scorn from any of us sitting on the sidelines, because if anyone is going to reform that church it is them.

  • schlukitz

    Correction: I forgot to add the word “illegal” at the end of the second paragraph.

    Oh, and by the way, defending a known abuser in no way relieves them from the guilt and responsibility that they bear for their sins, in much the same manner that defending Hitler by saying that he was kind to his German Shepard dog relieves him from the guilt and responsibility of his sins.

    Does that sound like a Godwin’s law statement? Perhaps.

    But no more so, than holding up the bible in defense of the evils that officials of the Roman Catholic Church have perpetrated in the past, and continue to perpetrate in the present.

    Different times. Different abuses.

  • echelon

    You know most of the wars that have occurred and are also now occurring are based upon religious beliefs. Can’t say I know of any that were caused by Gays.

    Religion needs to stay out of the equality issue. I can safely assume that we Gays are really not interested in making no money working for them.

  • rigs

    they should the leave the churches along IMO, and I’m not at all religious. If they want to become more and more isolated and less relevant, let THEM! plus it makes it too easy for conservatives

  • strumpetwindsock

    Churches should really be held to the same laws and standards as any other employer. Making them treat their employees fairly and expecting them to not discriminate in hiring actually has no impact on their members practicing their faith.

    I would hope that if I worked for a church organization I would be able to take them to the labour relations board if they screwed me around, and not have to take my case to the Inquisition.

    On the other hand, it doesn’t always work out that way:

  • Chris

    In a perfect world I think this passage to be appropriate. But its going to open up a can of worms. Religious organizations are going to end up being sued by someone who thinks they weren’t hired because they are gay. I really don’t understand the type of people who would even want to work in such a hostile anti-gay atmosphere. I know that if I had a job and had to hear all the companies anti-gay rhetoric I would want to quit. It reminds me of when someone sued E Harmony because they weren’t able to make a Gay Love Connection there. It can get really childish. However on the other hand if someone had been working in a church bookstore 10 years and all of a sudden a co-worker reported them to be gay and they were fired, I would find that an incredible injustice.

  • drake

    A key point that’s getting overlooked here – the article starts with the comment about the separation of church and state, the UK has no such concept. The UK has an established church (not allowed in the US). The monarch is the head of the Church of England and parliament has a say in the appointment of bishops; it makes sense that in the UK churches are subject to the law.

  • Greg Ever

    It’s a shame you use outright lies in your headlines just to attract attention.

  • schlukitz

    @Greg Ever:

    “It’s a shame you use outright lies in your headlines just to attract attention.”

    And it’s a shame that the Church uses outright lies in their headlines just to attract attention…just like they did with Prop.8 in California, to name but one instance.

  • strumpetwindsock

    Churches should be subject to the law in ALL countries. The only in which they should not be interfered iw their freedom to worship.

    It is the reverse situation – church interference in government – that is the problem. And actually I think that is more of a problem in the U.S. than in most other western democracies.

    Even if there is a separation on paper, the fundamentalist right has been actively waging war for government control since at least the 80s.

  • troy

    Has anyone read the report that was supposed to be put out yesterday that followed a 9 year study about child abuse in the Catholic Church in Ireland? The Church itself tried to stop it in the courts, the government tried to interfere, but somehow it was done. Its expected to be pretty vile and wicked. Why anyone would be a part of or support any organization that has systematically abused children, tried to ruin the lives of those that would expose them, lie, skirt responsibility for hiding and obstructing justice in the matter I don’t understand. I don’t give a flying fuck about what they think of me and who I am because gay or straight I would not want to be near any of those freaks. So tell me my gay Catholic brothers and sisters, how do you reconcile yourself to a faith like that? And it still goes on, its not in the past either boys and girls.

  • Paul

    What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

    The last time I checked it was illegal to discriminate based upon ones religion. Therefore, if a gay rights organization ‘discriminated’ against the evangelical christian who applied on this character trait alone they could be prosecuted under the current federal anti discrimination laws.

    Why should it be any different in reverse?

    And no, I do not want to work for a hatefilled organization anytime soon, but really, why should the christianists be protected when we are not?

  • Paul

    @troy: Yes, I read parts of the report. Absolutely disgusting what the church did to these poor children. Torture, sexual and other abuse to cruel to repeat. Those nuns and preists should have been exposed and prosecuted and sent to jail where they all belong.

  • schlukitz


    The report you made reference to is the link that I posted earlier on this thread.…..olic_abuse

    As a straight friend of mine stated, “Catholicism is a religion straight out of hell.”

  • Ted C.

    Just to echo what Drake said: the UK has no separation of Church and State. The Queen is, “by the grace of god”, Defender of the Faith and Supreme Governor of the Church of England.

    Religion is indeed taught in the classroom in the UK, so the introductory paragraph of this article doesn’t really make any sense.

    I don’t think such measures would go over so well in the United States. But let me assure you, the Moral Majority would disappear overnight if the American government simply revoked the tax-free status of churches that teach homophobia. (We all know that most of those evangelizers are money-grubbing hypocrits. Piety in America is profit-driven.)

  • michael

    I have a dear friend who though she is in her 50’s her hands shake like that of a 90 year old woman. About 10 years ago, when I first knew her I finally asked her about the condition. She broke down & told me and its not pretty. She spent 12 years of her childhood in a Catholic orphanage in Buffalo N.Y. where much of it she spent working in the laundry. She told me one of the first things they did to the girls was to get them addicted to cigarettes, because it produced a way to control and punish them. These girls had little to look forward to so smoking became an important ritual for them and the nuns knew that putting them through nicotine with drawl was a huge tool they could use in their arsenal.

    She told me many horrors, the ritual beatings, verbal abuse etc. She said she doubted that she received over 3 grade years of education while she was there. One of the worst things she told me was that they would lock the girls in a closet with only a 3 to 4 foot ceiling and leave them there for up to 3 days at a time to piss and shit all over themselves. They were forced to squat and she said by the time she was let out her knees would be completely locked in place and it would take a week to be able to stand straight again. She said that she literally dragged herself around using her arms and the other girls would help those who received this punishment get in and out of bed and put their food on the floor so they could eat. She told me a lot more, things she said she never had even told her husband because she was afraid of what he might do if he knew. She had never received help and she suffered greatly from PTSD. I told her she needed to do something and she had told me before this many times that she felt she needed to do something important with her life but just never could figure out what. Well when she told me her stories that day I helped her figure that out.

    There are 2 excommunicated nuns in the southeast who help victims of clergy abuse. They do great work, helping them confront the church, going to authorities, getting psychological help. My friend joined this organization and my partner and I went with her to her first meeting to support her while she told her story. It was heart wrenching and there were so many others at the meeting who had their own hideous tales to tell as well. The sisters spoke of how horrible the Catholic Church was about these issues and what an impossible, uphill battle it was to deal with them. In a nutshell, they are the biggest assholes the world has ever known, not much better than Hitler actually.

    I do not understand how anyone, with any conscience could be a part of this organization. There is no God anywhere near it. To support it, give money to it, hang on to it knowing what it has done, and according to the sisters, still was doing 10 years ago is nothing but aiding and supporting one of the most evil organizations humanity has ever known. Even more evil because their wickedness was hidden by a vale they call God. So why anyone would want to work for them for any reason makes no sense to me. I don’t know how anyone could step into one of their buildings and not stricken with shame over what that church has done. I am convinced the organization won’t last many more years,
    its a feeling I have and its quite peaceful when I have it. It would be the only real justice those who have had their souls murdered by its hands could ever have justice.

  • strumpetwindsock

    @Ted C.:

    Not sure what you are talking about.

    Yes, Britain has a state religion. If you check the history on it the main reason for that is that they did their damndest to force the Catholics out, from Henry’s schism to the revolution of 1688.

    But my understanding is they do not have undue influence over govenrment there like there is in the U.S.
    I mentioned a few weeks ago that here in Canada any politician invoking God, or his or her beliefs would be the kiss of death in our country. Our current P.M. (a right wing closet fundamentalist) used to say “God Bless Canada” a lot. He doesn’t any more because frankly it sounds creepy up here. It’s not that people aren’t religious, but we are pretty sensitive about keeping it separate from politics.
    Anyway, another poster (think it may have been John) comfirmed things are the same in Britain.

    Again, I don’t care about their church being controlled by the government; what is important is that the church is not controlling them, and from what I understand that is not happening in Britain (I do not live there, though I have spent time there).

    In the only sense that really matters, they DO have separation of church and state.

  • strumpetwindsock

    That is all very true.

    We recently had a hospital in our province which was taken away from the Catholic church because they were opening up patient records to see who had had tubal ligations.

    On the other hand, there are studies which now show the catholic laity are actually more progressive on social issues like abortion than protestants.

    Even in the early 80s the most Catholic of nations, Italy, votes 80 percent to uphold the legalization of abortion. Compare that to what happened at Obama’s university visit this week.

    So yeah, I know that church is The Great Whore, but it’s also the biggest christian religion there is, and not every member is bound to that evil

  • marcus

    I have a friend who has a friend that was repeatedly molested by a Catholic priest. One day my friend got a bright idea. He himself was not Catholic so he went to a mass to see how it all worked and how communion was done. He then went back and when it came time to have communion he lined up with everyone else. After receiving communion he turned around as if to walk back to his seat and removed his jacket. He was wearing a t-shirt that had printed on both sides “My best friend was raped by a Catholic Priest” he walked down the aisle and out of the church, but he said the look on peoples faces was like they had seen a ghost. I always thought it was so cool what he did for his friend. Maybe somebody should start selling t-shirts like that.

  • michael

    @strumpetwindsock: Still I beg the question, why would anyone, no matter what they believe about abortion want to support or be any part of such an organization that has perpetrated such evil? Even to this day they pressure governments to intercede in lawsuits,they did in Ireland and went to our congress back in the 90’s to seek legislation that would stop them from being sued. They obstruct justice and they still hide priests who are suspected to be involved in such behavior. In fact the sisters I spoke of travel to the towns that they hide priests in to warn the residents when they hear about it. If you are supporting an organization like the Catholic Church it is by choice and if you are conscious of what they have and are doing then you are bound to that evil. The very foundation that church is built on is evil.

  • Ted C.

    @strumpetwindsock: I think you’ve misunderstood what I’m saying. (I also think you’ve misunderstood what Drake is saying, but I let Drake speak for himself.)

    I’m not criticising Britain. I’m criticising Queerty for being factually incorrect. (Queerty refers to “that little separation of church and state”, when such a separation doesn’t exist in Britain. At least, not constitutionally.) Queerty is arguing against this Bill using American ideas and American paradigms that don’t exist in Britain, which is a form of cultural arrogance.

    Just to be clear, I support the Equality Bill, and I support the right of Britain to pass laws that govern the behaviour of churches. (And I think Drake does too.)

    I then suggested that the United States might also benefit from altering its relationship between Church and State, but in a way that is more appropriate for its culture and legal traditions.

  • Ted C.

    @strumpetwindsock: Queerty also talks about religion being kept out of the classroom, which again is incorrect.

    And I say this as someone who had to sit through Religious Education class in my state-run high school. (I grew up in Australia, which has a similar set-up to Britain.)

  • Jaroslaw

    #28 Michael – that is a horrible story and I’m not excusing the Church at all – but surely the vast majority of Catholic orphanages are not run that way. I know people in their 50’s & 60’s who were in them. Living conditions were surely strict, but the people I know got an excellent education.

    And I would like to remind people once again that while we’re contemplating burning down churches etc. to please talk to a protective services worker where you live. There are thousands and thousands of PS cases in every state where the child’s OWN PARENTS were every bit if not more cruel than the stories here. But there aren’t enough foster parents to go around and many of those who are aren’t much better than the parents the kids were taken away from.

    The point is to take each case separately. Many churches do good work and many are awful and yes, I’m woefully aware of the religious right’s influence here in the USA over the government and military. But like it or not, we have to work within the system we have. If religion isn’t the culprit, something else would arise to take its place. That seems to the be the human condition.

  • Jaroslaw

    My other point, sorry, is don’t get carried away with the popular sentiment of the moment.(eg all Churches are bad) PS & Foster care is off the radar screen for most of the public until some big scandal hits, but it is a huge ongoing mess as well.

  • schlukitz


    “If religion isn’t the culprit, something else would arise to take its place.”

    That is an often quoted comment and it is purely speculative, if not a perfect example of Godwin’s law.

    It doesn’t justify or forgive the Church’s transgressions. All the good deeds in the world, will not erase the evil they perpetrated for the past two thousand years and continue perpetrate in the 21st Century.

    These abuses must stop and we must stop covering them up, apologizing for them and holding up the few good things they do manage to get right now and then as an excuse for all the bad things they have done and continue to do to this very day.

    I have absolutely no forgiveness for any organization, religion, whatever, that tries to tell me that I am a sick, second-class citizen from the day I am born until the day that I die and does everything in it’s power to keep me that way.

    “But like it or not, we have to work within the system we have.”

    And I see no reason, whatsoever, why any of us should be obliged to work within a biased, bigoted and hateful system that these religious, manipulative devils have helped to set up.

    Playing by their rules, with one hand tied behind our backs, is not the way we free ourselves from the evil and wicked control they have worked so hard to establish over the masses.

    I, for one, prefer to think outside the box, thank you very much.

  • strumpetwindsock

    @Ted C.:
    Ah. Gotcha.

    What I meant was that even though they have a state church they do have a very strong de facto understanding of the separation of church and state, since the whole reason why they set up that state church was to drive out “popery”. They fought wars and civil wars, killed one king and overthrew another to make sure it stuck.

    And that is interesting about the religious stuff in Australian schools. Perhaps they were just trying to put the fear of god in you poachers, swindlers and n’er-do-wells.
    (I hope you realize I am kidding)

    And we have no such religious education in the Canadian public school system. I know there were some schools in Catholic areas where they used to have the Lord’s Prayer in the morning (and I doubt that happens any more), but that is the extent of it.

    I am quite aware of that. The fact is that aside from being the Great Whore, the RC Church was also the most stable government Europe had for hundreds of years. It was the university, the hospital, charity and justice system. It’s one of the largest organizations on earth, and it is far too enmeshed in many cultures to ever separate them.
    And as I said, despite the contradictions, catholics actually have a record of being more open minded than many protestants nowadays, and to whatever degree that church has been reformed, it is only because of those people who have subverted it from the inside.

    In short, although I agree with you (I find the trappings of Catholicism fairly creepy myself) it is an academic question. People are going to believe what they want to believe.

    Actually if you want to see some gay Catholic hallucinations, you should check out Paul Verhoeven’s film “The Fourth Man”.

  • Jaroslaw

    #37 Schlukitz – that was an awfully long reply when I already said I don’t excuse or forgive anything.

    And religion being replaced by another culprit is not purely speculative. A number of studies have been done, for example where college students KNOWINGLY participated where brown eyes were favored and blue eyed people were less favored and with amazing speed hierarchies formed.

    As to my comment of working with the system we have, sorry if that seems to excuse anything, it isn’t. All I meant was we are here, we have to either work with the system we have, work for change or move to another country (or planet if that option opens up !)

  • Jaroslaw

    More thoughts on the “not purely speculative” – aren’t race relations ways the powerful divide the masses? Economics? In more primitive times, people had all kinds of folk stories about everything imaginable. “The baby came out deformed because the mother was traumatized while pregnant.” etc. etc. etc.

    Again, nothing I have said excuses religion or churches bad behavior but they’ve done a lot of good too. Whether the good outweighs the bad is a subject of endless debate. If you can give me an object analysis why you think the bad outweighs the good, I’d be interested to hear it.

  • michael

    I agree that not every church parish, or orphanage may have perpetrated this sort of evil upon children however the entire foundation from which the church rests upon is. The knowledge of what was going on, how children were being treated, priests being hidden was known by the church all the way to the Vatican. The churches actions to discredit those who speak out, to obstruct justice and efforts, to this day, to avoid taking responsibility speaks volumes.

    As far as the church being infused in so many cultures that its not going anywhere I think you could be right, but do not underestimate the possibilities. Once I saw the wall fall in Berlin I realized anything was possible. I have a feeling that we are going to find out something in the next few years in regards to the Catholic church that is going to blow everyone away. Then it will crumble. The world is changing very fast, with communication tools being what they are today all that is hidden is easily revealed.

    But let us judge them by the words of the man they claim to follow;

    “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 “You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 “A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 “So then, you will know them by their fruits.
    “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

    The gospel of Matthew Chapter 7 versus 21-23.

  • Andrew

    This issue cannot be resolved. The only answer is full protection of civil rights — and that should include the right to equal employment opportunity. The very nature of religious belief and religious organizations precludes reaching some sort of “balanced approach” or compromise. Ad hoc approaches to human rights and civil rights never work. If we have to choose, we should err on the side of protecting human rights and civil rights over the freedom of religious expression. Employment practices based upon qualification and merit are not at odds with the free practice of religion. There’s just no justification for governmental sanction of discrimination based upon sexuality. Period.

  • Jaroslaw

    Andrew & Michael – while I agree with most of what you’re saying, you can’t assume everyone in the Catholic Church went along – I’m guessing most didn’t even know.

    To prove my point, all modern governments have civil rights laws and departments. Does injustice still occur? Of course! Look at the 12,146 rape kits in Los Angeles County alone that are sitting on a shelf gathering dust!!!! Many so old the statue of limitations ran out.

    Yes, yes yes, let’s have no governmental discrimination based on religious ideas, yes, lets work for full civil rights. But my problem with you guys is you act like human beings will not be part of the process and there will still be huge problems whether governments or churches run the show. (SEE PARAGRAPH II above).

  • schlukitz

    “or move to another country”

    I have been working for change all of my life. And thank you for making my point. That is precisely what these unjust laws, brought about by a hate-filled, bigoted and virulently homophobic church doctrine, have forced thousands of tax-paying, American citizens to do.

    As Andrew so well pointed out, there is no reasoning with people whose only position is, “You live the way we tell you to, or you will be excommunicated, outlawed and sent directly to hell.”

    I, for one, will not waste my time debating with religious lunatics about my right to live my life as as I see fit in the country of my birth…or leave it if I don’t like it. Nor, will wait around until my “Gawd’s in the mix” President, who I helped elect with my time, money and my vote, decides that maybe marriage is not just between a man a woman.

    Andrew is right on the money when he stated “There’s just no justification for governmental sanction of discrimination based upon sexuality. Period.

    If the church, who’s sole objective seems to be the demumanizing and marginalization of gay people, can’t bring itself into the 21st Century and get with the changing times, then perhaps it is they who should move to another country.

    After all, they don’t pay any taxes.

    We do!

  • schlukitz


    “there will still be huge problems whether governments or churches run the show.”

    Precisely. Why do we need two circuses running the same monkey show?

  • Jaroslaw

    I understand Schuklitz, Michael, Andrew – but you just keep repeating yourself.

    So, have a happy life when you find your own little island.

  • schlukitz


    “So, have a happy life when you find your own little island.”

    Does Manhattan count? LOL

  • Andrew

    ?? I wrote one post — how can I be repeating myself?

  • Andrew

    1. I made no assumption in my post about Catholics.
    2. You say I act as though no human beings will be involved in the process. Precisely the opposite. My position depends on the fact that human beings are involved in the process. And, because human beings have widely varying beliefs and religious practices, it’s impossible to reach some sort of compromise on this issue. So, while we dicker around trying to reach agreement and compromise with people who’d prefer to have religious doctrine determine our law and policy, our civil rights protections are lacking.

  • Jaroslaw

    sorry Andrew, you didn’t repeat yourself. and you didn’t make assumptions about Catholics.

    Unfortunately I don’t have internet at home anymore & have to rush very fast on breaks etc. Right now I’m at the Library.

    So, #2 in your post above – and post 42 above – I really do understand what you’re driving at and I do realize the religious right in the US has been harping so long about “secularism” impinging on religious freedoms (while simultaneously it hasn’t happened) I don’t want it to happen either. Of course, that is my opinion and in as much as Constitutions try to guarantee equality and other ideals, the fact of the matter is most people are religious, they vote and ultimately determine how Constitutions are written and laws are interpreted by voting for judges, various representatives etc.

    But likewise your assertion that “civil rights” should take priority over religious rights is your opinion too. Not that I necessarily disagree; but that is subject to government’s often heavy handed, sometimes illogical approach too. I just visited a center for the blind and state regulations insisted mirrors be installed for resident’s “self esteem.” Can you believe it?

    Anyway, sorry again for my errors in including you where I shouldn’t have.

  • harrytsc

    The Bible is the sole reference for those who condemn homosexuality. There are many illogical, impossible and unbelieveable verses in the Bible. Those who accept the Bible as the gospel truth will always be trouble makers in our society. I recently had a book published titled, The Gospel Truth: A Reality Check, which may be of interest to some visitors to this site. Check it out at:

  • michael

    @Jaroslaw: I want to see happen to the Nazi party in Germany, happen to the Catholic church. I am sure every Nazi was not involved in the death of Jews, Gays and Gypsies. What amazes me about Catholics is how few of them are outraged by what the church has been involved in. But then look what happens to those who do speak out, they are either excommunicated or well just talk to Sinead O’Conner. She can tell you how the general Catholic population will treat you if you bring up the subject. My personal issue is that I don’t really care whether or not the law forces them to employ gays or not, my point is that the foundation they rest upon, that does not mean every little old lady who goes to confession, is rotten to the core and why would anyone, anyone want to work for them? Especially
    someone from a group that they hate?

  • Jaroslaw

    Michael – not sure what you’re driving at. The Nazi’s had an official policy to exterminate Jews, Gays, Gypsies etc. Hitler made that no secret, it was all out in the open in his speeches. Look at the archival footage – stores had “no Jews” signs on their windows; Jewish stores were looted, taken from the owners, Jewish doctors and professionals forced to clean the streets on their hands and knees. Every person who observed this and said nothing in essence participated.

    Now, the Catholic church had no such official policies and it is the nature of organizations large & small to self preserve. This is no excuse of course, but remember the Church is worldwide with billions of members. It is a huge stretch to say every Catholic could (or even should) be aware of every goings on.

    And to expect any church or organization to be completely autonomous from the political and social entity in which it exists is extremely naive. Again, this is not excusing bad behavior – but for example I just talked to a (very small) business owner where I live – she thinks an executive who basically broke the union at a huge mfg. plant where I live is worth every penny of his 90 million dollar salary and earned every penny of his 10 million dollar bonus. This from a religious person! My point is there are many points of view and if every organization stuck completely to their principles, none would be around. Maybe you think this is a good thing, but it runs totally contrary to human nature.

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