Much of the furor over the Pentagon’s DADT surveys stems not only from the ridiculous nature of letting anyone, even soldiers, have a say in whether to tolerate discrimination, but also because once upon a time President Harry Truman ended another form of discrimination in the military without a single bubble for troops to fill in. But that’s not so, claim Pentagon historians!
Prior to President Truman’s 1948 executive order integrating the armed forces, our preliminary research shows that branches of the armed forces undertook a number of modestly sized surveys of the attitudes of enlisted and nonenlisted troops concerning racial issues, integration, and morale,” Pentagon spokeswoman Cynthia Smith tells Kerry Eleveld, noting at least eight surveys were issued, although it’s unclear how many people responded.
The supposed revelation comes at the personal request of Gen. Carter Ham and Defense Department general counsel Jeh Johnson, who are leading the current DADT repeal review.
So, two things: One, if these surveys were conducted, prove it. PICTURES OR IT DIDN’T HAPPEN. I want to see the questionnaires, the results, and whatever other documents and research materials were used. If these claims are true, the Pentagon must have the documentation to prove it. And second: This doesn’t change a damn thing. Surveying the troops about ending discrimination remains a wholly juvenile concept, insults troop intelligence, and ignores the notion that injustice is not something we get to weigh in on democratically.
How about we take this to the next level?
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I’d also like to know whether Truman’s alleged surveys about racial integration filled in some of the gaps the current sexual orientation survey does not, such as asking about the positive results that could stem from ending segregation.
Brutus
Interesting to know, maybe, but you’re right that it doesn’t change a damn thing.
Looking before you leap is always a good idea–especially when you’re planning to leap one way or the other. It could mean the difference between landing in the pool and landing on the jagged rocks.
Cam
Anybody who lives in DC knows the Pentagon has a massive records keeping system, it’s own system of libraries etc… If those surveys happened, they would have records of them. If they can’t find these records, then they didn’t happen.
Blaine Ward
@Cam: They “say” they can’t find them. Do you actually think they’d admit to having them? Hell no! You’re incredibly naive if you believe them when they say they can’t find them.
Well, if it doesn't change a damned thing...
… then you’re obliged to admit that your previous arguments about Truman *not* polling were totally irrelevant as well. One way or the other.
So: admission of previous pointlessness of your claims?
Cam
@Blaine Ward: said..
No. 3 · Blaine Ward
@Cam: They “say” they can’t find them. Do you actually think they’d admit to having them? Hell no! You’re incredibly naive if you believe them when they say they can’t find them.
___________________________
Yes, they would admit to having them, because it would back up their reasons for doing the survey’s now. The Pentagon will always fall back on the “Because this is the way it’s been done before” argument, it removes blame from any of today’s decision makers. The second they started getting attacked for this survey they began talking about these supposed survey’s that were done under Truman. If they were real and they were trying to hide them, they wouldn’t be bringing them up now would they?
They fact that they are bringing them up but can’t seem to find any records to back up their claims, THAT is what is showing that they never occured, and that the current survey’s are just an excersize in anti-gay bigotry.
B
In No. 5, Cam wrote, “They fact that they are bringing them up but can’t seem to find any records to back up their claims, THAT is what is showing that they never occured, and that the current survey’s are just an excersize in anti-gay bigotry.”
More likely, they found documents either mentioning the surveys, authorizing them, or maybe the results, and just issued a press release. Probably what happened is that someone in the Truman administration asked the Pentagon for some data, and someone there created a survey to get that data, probably not using current polling techniques (in the 1940s, the need for a representative sample was not fully appreciated by many people, hence the newspaper with the headlines about Truman losing the election that he won – they had done a telephone poll and didn’t realize that they had a wealthier, and hence more Republican, sample).
It would probably take a lot of time to find the original forms, which could have been buried in someone’s filing cabinet. If they kept the data on IBM cards, it would be even harder.
Mike L.
Release the damn surveys, questions and answers.
Ppl need to know that this survey is just as stupid as the other one probably was full of racists and stereotypical bull.
Brutus
People keep talking about DOD saying it can’t find these old surveys.
I don’t see that anywhere in the article.
B
http://www.advocate.com/printArticle.aspx?id=128865 has an article on it, including the following (see below). It seems that they have completed some preliminary research (i.e., found some information in various documents) and are presumably looking into it in more detail. Give them time – it’s stuff filed away in various cabinets, possibly in multiple geographic locations.
If the data is on Hollerith cards (commonly called IBM cards) – the ones you were not supposed to “bend, fold, or mutilate”), it can be tedious. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card has a picture of one. The alphanumeric data corresponding to the punched holes are printed along the top. In practice, however, the ribbons on the machines used to punch the cards were frequently in poor condition making the text very hard to read. Machines to read these cards are no longer widely available. Using these cards was the standard practice at the time – they were designed for collecting statistical data, so the machines could be wired to sum up numbers and then spew the results out onto other cards. There were also machines to print what the cards contained. It was all very labor intensive, not to mention the large amount of space needed to store this stuff.
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“Prior to President Truman’s 1948 executive order integrating the armed forces,” said DOD spokeswoman Cynthia Smith, “our preliminary research shows that branches of the armed forces undertook a number of modestly sized surveys of the attitudes of enlisted and nonenlisted troops concerning racial issues, integration, and morale.”
Smith said that according to DOD historians at least eight surveys were completed, but she could not yet say how large the sampling sizes were or whether they influenced Truman’s decision in any way. Smith added that the Pentagon’s working group cochairs — Gen. Carter Ham and DOD general counsel Jeh Johnson — had requested the historical information well before the survey was released.
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PLAYS WELL WITH OTHERS
Maybe this ain’t the most perfect analogy but lets call a spade a spade………We are the only group left where it is still accepted to be openly hated on…………..
Lord knows the rightwing lunatics hate the Jews, Blacks, Hispanics,and most likely even women. Yet it is no longer accepted to be openly hostile to anyone but those damm perverted Gays. You think those inbred bunch of scumbags the Phelps would be allowed to continue their hatefests if their signs had any other groups but “Fags” on them? Every bit of their hatred, paranoia, and bitterness is channeled towards the Gay community. And their poo spewing mouthpieces have an open fourm to spew their hatred on Faux News for any particular aspect of the Gays the currently chose to hate on. And suddenly “facts” materialize to support their hatefests. Give me a fucking break. In the 1940’s military personel did as told, when they were told. There were no “discussions” about which regulations you were going to adhere to. The joke they are now telling about “a number of modestly sized” surveys. Since when is the number ZERO considered “modest”????
B
No. 10 · PLAYS WELL WITH OTHERS wrote, “In the 1940’s military personel did as told, when they were told. There were no “discussions” about which regulations you were going to adhere to. The joke they are now telling about ‘a number of modestly sized’ surveys. Since when is the number ZERO considered ‘modest’????”
Guys, the function of a troop survey, whether in the 1940s or today, is to collect data useful in making sure they do what they are told. It’s easier to keep them in line if you know how they might try to get out of line.
I.e., if, in the 1940s, white soldiers didn’t want to share a water fountain with black soldiers (that sort of segregation was common in the south), they could be told that if they didn’t want to share a fountain, they better figure out how to get their own water supply because they were not going to get to go to some other barracks when everyone is asleep to use the fountain there.
Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com
BOTTOMLINE 1: Morrell is PAID to LIE. He’s not very good at it, repeatedly having to come back later and correct himself, but…
BOTTOMLINE 2: Too bad Ms. Eleveld can’t remember one of the few times Morrell told the truth. It would be useful to her now. [emphasis mine]
“The secretary has not asked his service chiefs, his service secretaries, his combatant commanders — anything of that sort — to sort of start to do, you know, polling on that matter. I DON’T THINK THIS IS A QUESTION OF POLLING ANYWAY. I MEAN, THIS IS A QUESTION OF WHERE THE PRESIDENT WANTS TO LEAD THE COUNTRY ON THIS ISSUE, and it’ll be a determination made by him as to if and when he wishes to pursue this matter with the united states congress.” – Geoff Morrell, Pentagon briefing, May 19, 2009.
NOW, he’s claiming polls are the best thing since sex and chocolate.
[img]http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs194.snc4/38059_1220592894610_1822575019_428862_3761658_n.jpg[/img]
drums
So basically, the American government is trying to justify spending taxpayers’ money on a pointless and bigoted survey by saying that they’ve done plenty of pointless and bigoted surveys before. “It’s okay for us to be assholes right now, see, because we’ve always been assholes!” Great argument; I can’t see anything wrong with that at all. :\
Bill Perdue
The surveys are a very minor side issue.
DADT is nothing more or less than military bigotry codified into law. Clinton was elected in 1992 and the LGBT vote was key to his victory. During his campaign he repeatedly vowed to end military bigotry but ended up signing DADT because of his ham fisted political mistakes and because he did what he would and most Democrats would do when faced with issues about our community.
He caved. He cowered. He pandered to the rightwing christian officer corps. “… when Democrats get scared, they don’t act boldly. They cower.” Joe Sudbay Americablog. Clinton and his staff, including Rahm Emanuel, betrayed us without ever looking back and then went on to champion, sign and boast about signing DOMA.
Obama’s approach to DADT proves Marx’s precept that “history repeats itself, first as tragedy, then as farce.” In his State of the Union Message, facing the prospect of getting picketed, yelled at and heckled, Obama again promised to repeal DADT and said he’d do it this year. What we got instead of repeal was an ugly compromise with bigoted generals demanding segregated housing and military policies determined by the number of bigots who fill out surveys.
Clinton’s DADT has to be repealed, not tinkered with, reformed, or adjusted. Beyond pushing for that we have to do everyone in the military a favor by continuing the fight to end Obama’s’ wars in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.
For those in the military or thinking of enlisting, don’t be a victim of Obama’s wars to make the world safe for BP and Haliburton. Don’t enlist. Don’t fight. Don’t Translate.
CG
Harry Truman didn’t give a damn about surveys or polls for that matter. He was President, and if he screwed up, he would admit that he was wrong and fix it. Same thing could easily be done today.
Paula Brooks
The Pentagon is correct… there was a survey done to gage the impact of racial desegregation on the U.S. Military and it was done on the command of a racist bully.
A recurring theme within the War Department and AAF and later the newly created Department of Defense and US Air Force assumed that segregation was the most efficient system of race relations and accepted the “separate-but-equal” doctrine and a notable survey was indeed conducted by the commander of USAF Europe in 1947 to verify that assumption….
That commander was General Curtis LeMay.
Historically the results of LeMays survey are not known, but if anyone knows General LeMays history then they would know, you’d probably want to answer the generals survey the way the general wanted you too…
One of his contemporaries once said LeMay was “like a rogue elephant barging out of a forest.” When angry with individual staff members, LeMay would berate them with sarcasm; if that failed, he would direct his wrath on his entire staff.
General LeMay later teamed with segregationist governor George Wallace in an unsuccessful candidacy for the vice presidency.
Jeremy
Those old farts of Pentagons find every possible ways to resist the DADT repeal, don’t they?
Queer Supremacist
This is why I won’t join the military. The temptation to frag these motherfuckers would be too great.