QUEERTY SELECTS — When it comes to gay parenting, we think about artificial insemination, surrogate moms (or donor dads), and adoption. But in a personal essay published in Butt, New Yorker Zachary Williams tells his own story of being a gay parent: He slept with his best girlfriend once, and she got pregnant. [Butt]
flightoftheseabird
Condoms, boys. Condoms.
Alec
@flightoftheseabird: Straight people don’t give it a second’s thought. On the other hand, I read the article and he doesn’t regret having the kid at all.
I dated a guy who was in a similar situation. It happens.
Anthony in Nashville
Glad he’s happy with the kid because I wasn’t feeling very sympathetic.
If you’re gay/questioning and sleeping with women without condoms, that’s on you for taking that risk. Then again, I think condoms should be used for all penetrative (is that a word?) sex.
ask ena
Umm…I’d like to know what SHE was thinking, having unprotected sex with a gay man…helllooo???
alex
Good point Ena.
Anthony in Nashville
@ask ena:
I believe that happens more frequently than is admitted.
A few months ago there was a thread that had a few self-identified straight women saying they had slept with gay male friends.
I think there is a book about that “phenomenon” as well.
The women probably have no clue the guy is gay or are hoping they can turn the guy straight.
Alec
@Anthony in Nashville: They sometimes think they can turn the guy straight. That happened to me a couple of times.
@ask ena: A lot of women don’t want their male partners to wear condoms. They’re more concerned about pregnancy than STDs.
Joey
Alec, what do you mean you were in a similar situation? And I’m sorry, but this DOES NOT happen that often. If you’re gay, you’re supposed to be exclusively attracted to guys. THAT’S WHY THE FUCKING LABEL EXISTS, SO MEN WHO ARE EXCLUSIVELY ATTRACTED TO OTHER MEN CAN USE IT! If you’re willingly having sex with women, then clearly you ARE NOT gay.
Alec
@Joey: This may be shocking to you, but guys who are gay (like me) can do things like get drunk, get hit on by women, and have sex with them. It happens.
“Willing to have sex with women” doesn’t make you straight or bisexual. I don’t seek women out as sexual or romantic partners.
Joey
It happens? lol Why WOULD you have sex with them if you’re gay? I just fail to understand where the urge comes from, whether you’re drunk or sober. It just creeps me out that there are men out there who are doing this sort of thing. I mean, while we as gay people are trying to convince the rest of the world that sexuality is immutable like race and gender and that being gay isn’t a choice, some of us are going off and fucking women? Is there going to be a gay community left in 20 years?
Alec
@Joey: If it makes you feel better, it was nothing like having sex with a man, which is pretty much fireworks every time. And no, I don’t think my sexual encounters with women turned me straight; I didn’t date them and I’ve dated plenty of men. I think the gay community will be fine in 20 years.
Spud
Wow, Joey. There are certainly differences among sexual attraction (and/or orientation) and sexual expression. Kinsey, of course, researched this extensively in the ’40s and ’50s. One of the principle findings is that sexual expression can and does change over time. It certainly isn’t immutable. His 6-point sexuality scale also was created to reflect this (the gradient from absolute homosexuality to absolute heterosexuality): Males do not represent two discrete populations, heterosexual and homosexual. The world is not to be divided into sheep and goats. It is a fundamental of taxonomy that nature rarely deals with discrete categories.” Even the gay penguins split up for straight sex…
Anthony in Nashville
@Joey:
I understand what you are saying. I want to categorize people as either gay or straight, and I’d also like to think that your experiences should be all straight or gay. I’m one of those gay men that has not had sex with women, and never had the urge to do so. But I know that is not the case for everyone. Most of my gay friends (men and women) have had “straight” sex, and they weren’t always drunk. In particular, I recall being shocked when my best friend, a 100% flaming queen, told me about the time he had sex with this woman he met, and how good it was.
That is why I’ve been reading posts on bisexuality with interest. In my opinion, it does throw a wrench into my either/or way of looking at sexuality, as well as the idea that sexuality is an immutable characteristic.
I don’t think the “biology vs choice” argument is the way to go about gay rights anyway, but it’s been a learning experience for me to see how bisexuality complicates things on both sides.
Joey
But Alec, what drove you to have sex with those women? If you consider yourself gay, what drove you to want to have sex with them, drunk or sober? It just mystifies me why people who identify as gay would want to do something like that. It goes against the entire premise of “coming out” and identifying with the gay label.
I mean, I’m only 17 years old, and I truly feel that a story like this being given attention is a disservice to all the young gay people out there who identify as gay, because they truly are exclusively attracted to men, and they want to come out and be accepted. By giving credibility to this notion that sexuality is “fluid” and not immutable like race and gender, we are destroying the equality and acceptance that true gay people have achieved over the last 40 years.
I’m sorry Spud, but I happen to disagree with you on whether sexuality is immutable or not. The Kinsey Scale is only a theory; It has never been proven to be the be all and end all of how sexuality works. The entire premise of the gay rights movement has been that sexuality IS immutable like race and gender, and that’s the reason gay people should be given rights, because it’s not something they can just change. The idea behind gay rights is that gay people can’t help being who they are, and that therefore it’s only fair they are given all the opportunities to live the best life they can, considering the card God dealt them.
In response to you Anthony, I’m happy there’s at least one like minded individual on this board, but how is your friend gay if he enjoyed straight sex? I have NO PROBLEMS WHATSOEVER with bi ppl, it just annoys me when people who claim to be gay do this stuff and then continue to use a label that is only meant to be used by people who are exclusively attracted to the same sex.
Alec
@Joey: I came out at 15, Joey (to my parents, at any rate). I don’t know what “drove me” to have sex with a woman; an opportunity, being curious, boredom.
BTW, the gay rights movement isn’t premised on immutability. And no one here is arguing that people choose their sexual orientation. At least, I’m not.
Look at it like experimentation.
Chris
@Joey: You’ve never heard of straight people experimenting? Wow, you seem really naive.
daftpunkydavid
Hi Joey,
I don’t mean to sound patronizing, though i know i probably will… anyway…
When you get older, and get to know more about yourself and about sex, sexuality, love and romance, you’ll see that human behavior is indeed very complex.
I am one to argue that, were sexual orientation an actual preference, the argument for equal rights in the public sphere would not be weakened whatsoever. We protect religious freedoms, political ideologies, etc. All these are much more cultural than they are biological (though, believe it or not, there is also some biological aspect to them). That we have relied on the biological aspects of homosexuality in our arguments just underscores where (and how far) we’ve come from in terms of our view of ourselves; the rhetoric being that this is a handicap that we couldn’t help… Also, the climate of discourse was much different than it is today… There are books written on the topic, so I won’t delve any further.
As for sexuality, you’ll easily understand that what makes an individual gay, straight, or bi, is not one’s ability to have sex with either/any gender. It’s one’s ability to love, form a committed romantic relationship, have a project together, etc. Of course you can have people that just can’t do it. Anecdotally, though, have you heard of “Bait Bus”? It was really big when i was a teen (lol, i’m 25 now). Have you heard of situational homosexual behavior? have you heard of closeted gay people with opposite-sex companions having children the “good ole fashion”? The point is sex is sex is sex is sex. You may have a preference. I sure do (and that would be my orientation). But sex is sex. Love is different.
One reason so many social conservatives are going nuts about giving us equal rights is that they’re afraid (wrongly, i would interject) that every one’s going to go gay. lol. As pleasantly as that might sound in my fantasies, that will just not happen. Why? Because most people given the choice will stick with what is inherently automatic for them. Might they more easily then, if they’re straight, also consider sex with someone of their own gender? Sure, but it won’t be anything more than a one night thing. Just like Alec, or just like Zachary Williams.
Good Luck!
By giving credibility to this notion that sexuality is “fluid” and not immutable like race and gender, we are destroying the equality and acceptance that true gay people have achieved over the last 40 years
The entire premise of the gay rights movement has been that sexuality IS immutable like race and gender, and that’s the reason gay people should be given rights, because it’s not something they can just change. The idea behind gay rights is that gay people can’t help being who they are, and that therefore it’s only fair they are given all the opportunities to live the best life they can, considering the card God dealt them.
Joey
Alec, how many times have you done stuff with women? I don’t mean to be nosy, but I’m sorry, there’s a certain point where it becomes more than “experimenting”. If you’ve done it more than afew times and you say you did it because you were “curious”, why don’t you identify as “bicurious” rather than calling yourself “gay” and complicating things for all the exclusively gay people out there? And also, if you’re “so gay”, how were you able to maintain an erection?
In response to you Chris, it seems that there are alot less straight people who experiment than gay people, at least among straight males. Why is it that most straight men seem so cool and comfortable and secure about their sexuality while young gay men these days seem to be becoming “less and less gay” as time goes on?
Like I said before, I came out as gay because I AM exclusively attracted to men. I came out so that nobody would ever again have any doubts about who I am, and would never again have to hear people asking me about whether or not I was dating a girl. Now, however, it seems that insecure people are slowly taking over the label of “gay”, and are tearing down all the progress the gay community has made. I feel threatened by all of this, because if I can’t even turn to my fellow “gay men” as people I can identify with, who can I turn to?
daftpunkydavid
Hi Joey,
I don’t mean to sound patronizing, though i know i probably will… anyway…
When you get older, and get to know more about yourself and about sex, sexuality, love and romance, you’ll see that human behavior is indeed very complex.
I am one to argue that, were sexual orientation an actual preference, the argument for equal rights in the public sphere would not be weakened whatsoever. We protect religious freedoms, political ideologies, etc. All these are much more cultural than they are biological (though, believe it or not, there is also some biological aspect to them). That we have relied on the biological aspects of homosexuality in our arguments just underscores where (and how far) we’ve come from in terms of our view of ourselves; the rhetoric being that this is a handicap that we couldn’t help… Also, the climate of discourse was much different than it is today… There are books written on the topic, so I won’t delve any further.
As for sexuality, you’ll easily understand that what makes an individual gay, straight, or bi, is not one’s ability to have sex with either/any gender. It’s one’s ability to love, form a committed romantic relationship, have a project together, etc. Of course you can have people that just can’t do it. Anecdotally, though, have you heard of “Bait Bus”? It was really big when i was a teen (lol, i’m 25 now). Have you heard of situational homosexual behavior? have you heard of closeted gay people with opposite-sex companions having children the “good ole fashion”? The point is sex is sex is sex is sex. You may have a preference. I sure do (and that would be my orientation). But sex is sex. Love is different.
One reason so many social conservatives are going nuts about giving us equal rights is that they’re afraid (wrongly, i would interject) that every one’s going to go gay. lol. As pleasantly as that might sound in my fantasies, that will just not happen. Why? Because most people given the choice will stick with what is inherently automatic for them. Might they more easily then, if they’re straight, also consider sex with someone of their own gender? Sure, but it won’t be anything more than a one night thing. Just like Alec, or just like Zachary Williams.
Good Luck!
Joey
Your points make sense David, but I still concur with my previous statements. Of course a gay man can have sex with a woman; Like you said, there are plenty of gay men who are closeted who do so to cover up their true identities, so of course it’s technically possible. That’s a fact that’s not in dispute.
My argument, however, is about the meaning of the word gay. Why would someone come out as gay if they willingly WANT to have sex with members of the opposite gender? It just doesn’t make sense. It’s different for closeted people, because they’re trying to pretend to be straight, but these supposedly “gay” men who then go and have sex with women, it just completely goes against what the concept of “coming out” and “being gay” is all about.
Most relationships in modern society are based on the idea that couples should be both romantically and sexually attracted to each other. I understand that’s not always the case, that there are couples who are together based solely on emotional attraction or physical attraction, but the idea of being “gay” or “straight” is that you are attracted to either the same sex or opposite sex both emotionally and sexually.
Anthony in Nashville
@Joey:
My friend said it was just something he did that one time. As far as I know he didn’t have sex with any other women (he died from AIDS in 2007).
In discussions with other gay men I know who had sex with women, most of them said physically it was okay but the emotional connection was not there. I believe that is what makes them gay.
Joey
I am deeply sorry David to hear about your friend. What I simply don’t get, however, is why your friend would have had sex with her if he felt he was truly gay. And hey, if he liked it so much, why did he only do it as a “one time thing”? Seems to me he was at least bicurious if he actually liked the experience.
My personal experience and belief tells me that sexuality is both emotional AND physical; I identify as gay because I am both sexually and emotionally attracted to men, and while there may be some self-identified gay men who feel differently, I would honestly say that they probably aren’t 100% solid about their sexuality like I am. I am gay because I am not attracted to women in any way.
What I find really interesting though is that you say that “other gay men I know who had sex with women, most of them said physically it was okay but the emotional connection was not there”. Other people on this board, however, offer the complete opposite view, that the reason men like Zach were driven to have sex with their female friends was BECAUSE of their emotional attraction to the women, but weren’t attracted to them physically in any way.
This is just so fucked up. I’m sick and tired of feeling like there’s no community in which I truly belong. I honestly thought that as a gay man I had other gay men who I could identify with, but clearly that’s no longer the case.
headbang8
Joey,
If you read the article, I think you’ll find that Williams’ experience, and his attempt to live with the woman concerned, served to confirm that his sexuality was immutable, rather than open the possibility that it might be fluid.
In his eyes, it provides another argument AGAINST forcing gay men to deny their natures.
IN the overall debate on gay rights, the more healthy, loved sons with gay dads, the better.
Joey
While you bring up a credible and interesting point HeadBang8, it still doesn’t undo the fact that he DID willingly have sex with a woman, and that he actually enjoyed it so much that he ejaculated in the process. I know me making a big deal out of that fact seems trivial and pointless, but to me, it is important, because I value the idea of the gay community being one whole group of people who understand each other and are willing to fight for each other, and all this does is destroy that idea and leave real gay teens like me feeling alone and afraid.
Anthony in Nashville
@Joey:
Everyone’s motives for sex are different.
I would find it difficult to have sex with someone if there was zero physical attraction, but the mind is a powerful thing. If someone feels an intense emotional bond to someone, they can start to look better to the admirer, or at least get them to the point of trying something physical.
TANK
Paul F. Tompkins had a bit in his act a few years ago that mocked his male friends who recently became fathers. He mimicked their quivering emotional tone and said,”Dude…I never knew that another person could mean this much to me…It really put things in perspective FOR ME…allowed ME to see that MY LIFE wasn’t the only one that matters…” and blah blah blah, predictable soppy man sentiment expressing a superficial self absorption and emotional retardation via hallmark level articulation. I just hope that gay dads aren’t going to become as cliche, warranting a similar upbraid…”I just…never new, man…what it was all about…” Chrissakes! People have kids all the time…it’s nothing special.
The Gay Numbers
@Joey: I am with you on this. I don’t get it.
Joey
That may be true Anthony, but if that’s the case for somebody and they’re emotionally or physically attracted to the opposite sex, then I’m sorry, but they shouldn’t classify themselves as gay. They’re probably bicurious, but not gay. And thanks “The Gay Numbers” for backing me up, because I just don’t understand it at all.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
Mmm, yeah pretty odd. He’s bi but he prefers the ‘gay lifestyle’.
I really don’t understand how you can get it up with a woman if you’re gay?? You just ‘aren’t’ attracted to them, even if mentally they are your soul mate.
GayIsTheWay
Gay men are potent.
Joey
I think you’re right John. And hey, if a man thinks that a woman is still his soul mate emotionally, even if he doesn’t find her attractive sexually, I would still encourage him to think about the possibility that he might not be 100% homosexual lol.
As for you “Gayistheway”, WTF? lol
The Gay Numbers
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): Because he said he wanted to have sex with her I agree that makes him bi.
As for your statement about erection and arrousal, that’s not necessarily true.
“An erection can be voluntary or involuntary. The diagram below shows the neural pathways involving the penis. The bold black pathway shows the voluntary arousal of a male. This pathway travels from the penis to spinal cord to the brain and there is a deliberate decision to become aroused. The red line shows the involuntary erection that men often confuse with wanting to have sex. In this neural pathway a penis can be manipulated (stroked, fondled, sucked on) causing signals to be sent from the penis to the spinal cord and back to the penis, resulting in an erection. This means that a man can get an erection without wanting to or being aware of it. An example is when boy gets an erection during class or while sleeping.
Ejaculation is also a natural part of an erection. Neither an erection nor ejaculation automatically means that a male wanted to have sex. In fact. some females become aroused, lubricate, or orgasm while being raped, but does this means she wanted to be raped? The same logic applies to a male, with sexual response being similarly out of the individual’s control.”
Diagram here:
http://smellslikecollege.com/Rapeofmen.htm
The point of making this statement about rape is to discuss how sex can be an involuntary response due to stimulation for man’s penis. It has nothing to do with the sex partner. But, the part that does is which person causes one to be aroused without stimulation.
To put it bluntly, if a woman were to give a hand job, you are going to get a hard on and reach climax. But if she stands in front of you waving her boobs, then you will not get arroused unless you are attracted to that sort of thing.
The part that was confusing me was the whole- I am gay, but I sought out and wanted sex with her, and was arroused without the act of stimulation that I was thinking was what was meant here.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@The Gay Numbers:
Of course I agree.
Thats pretty much what I meant because it’s very true that whole rape anology.
She sounds pretty suspect to me but so are quite a few fag hags…I don’t get it, it’s like why wanna f*ck someone you know isn’t even attracted to your sex?
It’s obvious he wanted to sleep with her and make a go of the relationship but he missed d*ck so he was depressed.
Jai
@ask ena:
I know I shouldn’t think this, but why do I get the feeling that the comment was implying that ALL gay men have AIDS or some STD. As if straight men never do. =/
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Joey:
Like I do NOT find women sexy OR appealing. I’d have to pretend she was a guy but then I’d feel her soft body and breasts which would be…sorry..but ew..
No, no, no! Not even if I was soo wasted and trust me, women have tried many a times and I’ve even tried a kiss and was grossed out.
scott ny'er (formely scott)
@Joey: So, would you feel better if he was “labeled” as bi. I think it’s the labels that r getting ur pants in a knot. I’d say that this is a first for me to hear a gay dude actual want another dude to say he’s bi and NOT gay.
I’ve had to label myself “gay” because a lot of gay dudes get really stupid about the label “bi”. I’ve had sex with a women. It just happened. It was incredible. I’d do it again if the opportunity arouse. She’s an incredible person.
Yet, I’ve also had sex with guys.
I really don’t think you should feel alienated from the gay community. I’m sure you’ll find plenty of gay dudes who just sleep with dudes. It’s really just labels and in the big picture doesn’t mean anything.
vernonvanderbilt
@Joey: Well, I made two honest attempts at spearfishing when I was younger, and both failed miserably. Not saying it’s a typical case, just that it’s my own experience. I certainly think anything is possible, and who knows, maybe someday I might have a strong enough urge to actually go the rest of the way with a female. I have my doubts, but I’ve learned not to ever rule anything out in this life.
I think if we try to look at gay/straight as a black and white dichotomy, we are doing ourselves (and, by extension, the movement as a whole) a disservice. Our lives and activism are built on a foundation of living outside society’s boxes. Why would we want to climb out of one box simply to climb into another one? Lack of equality, homophobia, bigotry, etc. are oppression, certainly, but they’re not the roots of our particular brand of oppression. GLBT people are not so much oppressed because of who we love, but because of what we do.
And what do we do? We don’t follow the rules. We colour outside the lines, if you will. We don’t adhere to the rigid social system that has been in place for ages. Our existence is a danger to the status quo because we live outside of it, happily, and by doing so we show the world that you do not have to be a conformist to be able to enjoy living.
This is why it boggles my mind when I hear brothers and sisters talking about a yes/no, either/or dichotomy as far as sex goes. “Queer” is about rejecting boxes, rejecting borders, and fully accepting oneself, including one’s own quirks and tastes, even if others find them outlandish. Freedom is not only about being free to be who the mainstream doesn’t want you to be, but also being free to be someone you don’t expect to be.
So maybe a flaming homo gets his groove on with a lady friend one night. Maybe a diesel dyke gets a hankering for some dick one day. Maybe a barely legal twink wants to get busy with a senior. Maybe a lumberjack wants to get freaky with a drag queen. Maybe a gym bunny wants to try a chubby guy on for size. No limits, people. Nothing is true; everything is permitted. That is revolutionary, my friend.
I’m no ageist, but I have to say that I think as you grow older and get some experience in this crazy, messed-up, confusing, beautiful world, you’ll come to soften your views a little. You really won’t have much of a choice in the end. The only purpose limits (self- or society-imposed) serve is to continually remind us that someone, somewhere, doesn’t fit within them.
I used to think like you. Now I don’t. I think it’s an ideological trajectory anyone else could take under the right circumstances.
You said this:
“I’m sick and tired of feeling like there’s no community in which I truly belong. I honestly thought that as a gay man I had other gay men who I could identify with, but clearly that’s no longer the case.”
Been there, done that, and it’s a hard pill to swallow, the one that forces you to see that the mythical “gay brotherhood” is practically nonexistent. You cannot set up an altar to this idea of “The Pure Gay Man” and expect to never be disappointed. If it’s not sexual practices that alienate you, I guarantee something (or someone) will sooner or later. Believe it or not, there’s probably something wrong with you too, if you ask the right person. Maybe you wear the wrong clothes, have the wrong haircut, listen to the wrong music, watch the wrong films, eat the wrong food, have the wrong body type, vote the wrong way, fuck the wrong way, walk the wrong way…need I go on? Do you get my point yet?
Here it is in plain writing: there is no one way to be “gay.” Anyone who thinks there is is only setting himself up for disappointment, at the very best.
To sum it all up: It doesn’t matter what (or who) you do, as long as you know who you are and you’re comfortable with it. If we try to impose limits on what “gay” is, or what “queer” is, then we’re no better than our enemies who presume to define “normal” based on their own unique experience of the Universe.
Sorry if I was rambling. I simply haven’t been overly interested in a Queerty discussion for a while now, so I figured I’d weigh in with my thoughts now that something has caught my attention.
scott ny'er (formely scott)
@vernonvanderbilt: Nicely said. Bravo.
The Gay Numbers
@scott ny’er (formely scott): Comments like yours are funny. This site and the writer who has the kid are the ones saying he’s gay, but had sex with a woman. Clearly he has no problems with labels. Nor does this site. The real issue is that we do not understand his labeling since to accept it would render any attempts to understand each other meaningless. I am big believer of people being whatever they want to be until that languge just adds no meaing in a context (like where you write a story) where meaning is important. Finally, can we get rid of the knee jerk “oh, we are against labels” b.s. Clearly most people, and I imagine, including yourself are not against labels. In the context here, it just seems like someone is trying to be cosmopolitian and hip or worldly rather than clear. I live in NYC. I see this type of b.s. all the time. Just say what you mean so that others can really understand you.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@scott ny’er (formely scott):
If you read his post he’s not saying that.
The fact is your Bi and it’s interesting you’ve mentioned what that the gay community are like against Bi’s.
I’ve ALWAYS believed in Bisexuality and so does Joey but don’t say you’re Gay when you’re not because it means that what the crazy religous right are saying is true…
So is it? Do you agree?
It’s not biggie and I’m sure Joey would appreaciate many more labels and wouldn’t judge.
But I CAN NOT have sex with a woman. It’s gross. The thought of breats does not turn me on AT ALL. Even as people…woman are sooo different from me..but that’s more preference.
But physically, no, I can’t just sleep with a woman.
Joey
In response to John from the UK, I just don’t understand why any women, knowing full well that the guy was gay, would try to lure him into doing stuff? I mean, HELLO, how much more straight forward could you be? A man who identifies as gay does so so he doesn’t have to go through that shit anymore!
As for Scott, I think you’re misrepresenting your own sexuality to people by telling them that you are gay. By using a term that should only be applied to men who are exclusively attracted to the same-sex, you are making it harder for real gay people to live their lives in honesty and without shame. While you call yourself “gay” because you think it’ll help you get more cock than if you called yourself bi, I’m the one who’s paying for your selfishness. Because of people like you, I no longer have a term with which I can truly identify myself. Bi people have essentially hijacked the word gay.
As for VernonVandebilt, what do you mean by “spearfishing”? Are you talking about sex? I just have a real problem with people who seek to tear down all the progress the gay rights movement has made with all this young emo “labels are bad” bullshit. It’s just like Black people back in the 70’s who refused to call themselves Black and instead called themselves “mixed race”; I’m sorry, but you’re either gay, bi, or straight. Ahere to the label that actually matches you.
I really just don’t get the point of me coming out as gay when people are still going to think that I want to fuck pussy. The term really doesn’t mean what it used to mean anymore. It’s really pathetic and sad, and it makes me feel cynical and worried about the future. Why should I get involved in the gay rights movement like I want to if there’s nobody’s rights left to fight for?
TANK
Why do you care if they say they’re gay when they’re bi? They can label themselves whatever they want…literally…dragons and shit (NB: by shit, I mean other stuff, not excrement). You don’t have to agree with them. joey…don’t identify too strongly with the gay community at large (the activist queers, definitely; the cause is just and a lot of them aren’t bad, just a little misguided), because you’re gonna get let down… Don’t let how others behave and identify themselves interfere with how you do. You don’t have to believe them…but learn not to care, because “ultimately” (whatever that means) it isn’t worth it.
The Gay Numbers
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): There is always this issue in all relationships with people trying to convince themselves of things that may or may not be true because our emotions cloud our judgment. I find women especially are guilty of this. Like you said, I just think the cat is bi, but likes dick more. The problem is when all the political correctness politics gets into it, and we have to hear dissertations on how labels are wrong and how sexuality is fluid, and blah, fucking, blah, blah. So, he likes dick and pussy- so what. It’s his choice. The problem comes when he’s trying to tell a story, but not wanting to just say that clearly. And that is followed up by people bringing in all this baggage about queer theory b.s.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@vernonvanderbilt:
You’re talking about lifestyle…and that, I COMPLETELY agree with you, and sure Joey does.
We’re not talking about LIFESTYLE.
We’re talking about genetically being phyically inclined towards a sex.
Again I genuinely feel there are more bisexuals then gays and straights.
But I really believe, me personally that I can not and don’t feel sexually inclined towards women AT ALL.
And I think it’s cool to leave on the outside of society…pretty bohemian but again that’s life style you are talking about..
Joey
“Finally, can we get rid of the knee jerk “oh, we are against labels” b.s. Clearly most people, and I imagine, including yourself are not against labels. In the context here, it just seems like someone is trying to be cosmopolitian and hip or worldly rather than clear. I live in NYC. I see this type of b.s. all the time. Just say what you mean so that others can really understand you.”
EXACTLY! Thank you! Finally someone who makes sense.
The Gay Numbers
@Joey: Well there is questioning or confused who don’t know, and that’s fine too, but I overall agree with your point- don’t dumb down the language for political reasons.
vernonvanderbilt
@Joey: Obviously “spearfishing” was a nearly humourous metaphor for having sex with women which I employed to set a certain tone for my post, i.e. not angry, militant, or judgmental. Sorry you didn’t get it.
For the record, I did not come down on either side of the question of labels. My stance on them? They’re about as useful as a third testicle. I don’t consider them good or bad, just pointless, doubly pointless when you’re labelling anyone other than yourself.
Furthermore…you’re sounding more than a little melodramatic about this. One story about a homo going in for some poontang, followed by a couple of comments where other homos say they’ve taken a taste is enough for you to lose all faith in the movement? You couldn’t have had more than a thimble full to begin with if that’s the case. To extrapolate from this one story that it’s a common scenario, or some sort of epidemic amongst us homos is a bit much, I think. I would contend that the vast majority of gay guys have no interest in sex with women and probably wouldn’t pursue it under typical circumstances. But if you want to take a handful of isolated cases and look at them as being representative of the community as a whole, you’re free to do that. It’s what our enemies do when they call us pedophiles, isn’t it?
Just a little something to chew on.
Joey
Ever since I came out Tank, when I was 14, I have aspired to become an activist for the gay community. I’ve always maintained a strong interest in civil rights, and count Harvey Milk and Frank Kameny among my role models. The reason I care about these men who are distorting the term “gay” is that they’re hurting the central argument of the gay rights movement; Recent scientific studies show the chances are that sexuality IS immutable and genetic, but the inability of these men to be honest about themselves is tearing down the gay community and destroying the progress that has been made.
I dream of a day when gay people will be mobilized enough to help launch a gay man into the White House, just like Blacks helped Obama win in the Democratic primaries. But at this rate, I don’t see how that will be possible.
The Gay Numbers
@vernonvanderbilt: The melodrama is a product of your responses which tend to lead to confusion. You don’t live in a world by yourself, and, therefore, you are talking passed Joey. He’s trying to understand in a common language what we each mean so that we can really understand each other. You, on the other hand, keep referring to what things mean for you. If sexuality were just you living on a remote island by yourself, that may actually, be relevant. In context, it context of society and language- its not.
Joey
I recognize that I’m being melodramatic, and I also recognize that this is indeed probably an isolated case. But the fact is that more and more of this “no labels” bullshit is coming up in society and culture. Before long, I’m worried that there won’t be a gay community any longer, that we will no longer have the numbers to mobilize and win our civil rights. I happen to be someone who believes deeply in my gay identity, and I feel it’s being threatened by the foolishness and dishonesty of others.
More and more, I’m hearing stories like this one, and it bugs the hell out of me. Even on here, there were a few individuals who spoke of how this isn’t necessarily an isolated incident, how there have been books written about incidents like this one, and how there was a topic here on this site not too long ago in which straight women talked about how they’d be able to lure their “gay friends” into bed. It just really freaks me out.
vernonvanderbilt
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): I understand what you’re saying, but I respectfully disagree with your assessment of my intent. I contend that it is not our “lifestyles” that put us outside the box, but our existence at the most fundamental level. The majority of guys like pussy, the majority of gals like dick, and then there are the queers, roughly 10% of the population, give or take a partisan survey or two, who do not fit into the expectations of mainstream, “straight” society. It doesn’t matter how assimilationist any of us may be. No matter how much you’re “just like the neighbours,” you’re not (provided you don’t live in a gay ghetto somehwere).
Obviously, if you want to have sex with someone who shares the same equipment as you more than, say, 95% of the time, you qualify as gay by most definitions. If it’s a 50-50, 60-40, 75-25 split, then you’d likely be bi. I don’t think one or two instances of “straight” sex in a lifetime automatically make one bisexual, or even bi-curious. I’m just reacting to the sexually fundamentalist tone the conversation has been taking. Labels are one thing, limits are another. The latter is what I dislike.
vernonvanderbilt
@The Gay Numbers: If my responses are confusing, then why not simply tell me what you’re not understanding and ask for clarification? It’s a lot more productive than just shooting me down because you suspect I disagree with you.
And of course I’m referring to what things mean for me. It’s not my place to presume to tell anyone else what they think, is it? Then it wouldn’t be a discussion anymore; it would be a lecture.
@Joey: I understand what’s bothering you about this story. I’m simply saying it’s really not something that’s worth getting riled up over. Save that evergy for something productive. There are worse things in this world than a gay guy getting some female lovin’.
The Gay Numbers
@vernonvanderbilt: Because no one wants to spend their day trying to break down individual languages that we can could develop that has no point of commonality. I once dated a guy who said he was out. When I finally got the reality- he was not out. But, according to “his” definition he was out. Language must have some commonality or it becomes meaningless babble.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@vernonvanderbilt:
Of course.
But from the tone of HIS story, it didn’t sound like it was like ‘oops’…he did try and live with her. That’s just not some one night thing.
And what I think is odd is why he didn’t use condoms with HER?? And interestingly if he did this with another guy, the crazy gays would be all over his ass!
I guess gay men feel that it’s pure to sleep with women and you won’t get anything but it’s inpure to sleep with men.
Whatever.
The straight guys I know ALWAYS were condoms…
scott ny'er (formely scott)
@The Gay Numbers: I actually don’t like labels.
@Joey: I don’t call myself gay to “get more cock”. (Really, get a grip. I’m actually offended at that). I say gay so I don’t have to put up with the BS I’d get from people (it could be homos, heteros, whomever) saying I’m fooling myself and I’m not Bi, but really on the road to gayville, blah, blah, blah. If you had read some of the comments in other BI threads here so far, you would see some evidence of this. (Altho, I will admit to seeing a little bit of acceptance).
Honestly, I hope this doesn’t come off wrong, but someone else said it and I agree, I think your youth is coloring your perspective. There have been some great posts and you really should try and absorb it and take it in. But, I’m thinking you’re stuck on your belief and won’t budge so anything anyone says won’t matter.
The Gay Numbers
@vernonvanderbilt: Oh, and a follow up: No one wants to spend half their day breaking down language that adds nothing to meaning except to what’s going on inside your head. It’s not going to aid me understanding you better.
The Gay Numbers
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): The make a really good point. I had not even thought about the bizareness with the condom.
The Gay Numbers
@scott ny’er (formely scott): But genetically required to use them or else you could not survive in the real world. Humans build labels because it allows us to navigate the real world versus whats inside our heads.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@vernonvanderbilt:
“Save that evergy for something productive. There are worse things in this world than a gay guy getting some female lovin’.”
The guy had a kid with her.
A little bit more then some female lovin.
I think it’s an interesting topic because it’s two faced and hypocritical on sooo many levels, which is kind of what Gays tend to be nowadays..
And for the reason that it brings Bisexuality into the forefront.
I disagree with your assessment of 10% queer people…
I think their are more bisexuals then gays or straights BUT it’s what people act on, which is largely to do with society.
scott ny'er (formely scott)
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): lol. I’m not laughing at you, but you’re saying it’s gross having sex with a woman. I just found that funny.
Are you asking if I’m BI? Was that the question? Yeah, if pushed I’d say that with more leanings toward men at this time period.
scott ny'er (formely scott)
@The Gay Numbers: Right. I’m forced to use them.
Mark
Joey–
You give me hope that, though our numbers are small, we won’t be “bisexualized” out of existence as gay men. The anti-gay bigot’s thesis: Gay men are broken heterosexuals — Conclusion: Gay men don’t really exist. Queer theorist’s and bisexual purist’s thesis: There is no such thing as a fixed sexual orientation, ever at all, nada — Conclusion: Gay men don’t really exist. A scary convergence indeed.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with labels, only how their used.
I’m 45 years old and share your views just as strongly today as when I was a teenager crying myself to sleep at night wondering how I will survive to the next day, month, or year.
From reading your posts here and on Butt (what a name for a publication?!), I am certain you will do fine in your future.
My husband and I have been together since 1985. He shares your views as well and is 9 years older than me! Don’t lose hope. Stay strong and stand by your convictions.
As I said in comments on Butt (oh my, what a statement), for those who seem to embrace only a strict ambiguity of sexuality, and refuse to believe that exclusively homosexual men really exist: “When you and others who think like you can provide multiple verifiable examples of couples comprised of a straight man and a gay man where the straight man says that he only fantasizes and desires women but this one man is an anomaly (it could never happen again) but the love was so powerful, and where these same couples have mind-blowing fulfilling sex, then and only then will your thesis on sexual fluidity have any real credibility.”
You’re a fine young man Joey. You give us older folks who share your views something to smile about.
vernonvanderbilt
@The Gay Numbers: So you aren’t interested in finding a common vocabulary? I don’t see how you could if you have no interest in hearing another person’s reasoning and ideas regarding the language we use. As far as I understand it from my dealings with fellow queers over the years, my definitions don’t really vary all that much from most folks’. I simply believe you prefer to write off my input because you think I disagree with you. That’s my opinion, just to be clear.
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): I have a confession to make.
I did not read the story this post linked to. I assumed it would be uninteresting. Stories are rarely as interesting as the underlying issues/questions/philosophical quandaries they are built upon.
But yes, condoms, definitely. If I ever wanted to hook up with a female, I’d make damn sure there wouldn’t be any mini-mes running around 9 months later. I am not interested in that nonsense.
scott ny'er (formely scott)
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): IMO, I agree it’s much to do about nothing. The LGBT is supposed to be a community. Not just the gays or the bis.
My mom is incredibly sick and has been in the hospital for the past 3 months. That shite is something. This, is not really anything in the grand scheme of things.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@scott ny’er (formely scott):
I agree with him but I’m not young and have done plenty of living, in various countries…
I’m glad Joey brought this up…
He’s Bi. Your Bi.
Just be honest to stick to your guns and F*ck those militant gays who think EVERYONE wants cock!
They’re the one’s who ended falling badly for the ‘straight’ guy only to get hurt!
Get over it, live and let live!
You can only be gay, straight or bi.
There is no inbetween. What is inbetween is something you have culturally selected which is your given right but we’re talking about actual genetic attraction and sexual physical response.
The Gay Numbers
@scott ny’er (formely scott): Only inside your head, and even there, yes. You can pretend otherwise for your own belief system as you much asyou want,b ut I am discussing reality. Not what you want to believe. tell me a part of life you don’t use labels in reality?
The Gay Numbers
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): Completely agree. So long as the label is accurate who gives a shit what others think of it.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@scott ny’er (formely scott):
Lol, it is.
Ew. I really don’t find breasts attractive AT ALL. I like cock. Am attracted when I see it and feel horny. I don’t feel that whe I see a vagina.
When I see a vagina, I wish it was a cock instead.
I have some stunning female friends and have tried…and god, it was so painful.
Character wise, I don’t get on so much with women too, I’m always called insensitive blah, blah and I think they’re too cuaght up with being martyrs and passive aggressiveness…but that’s just my preference!
😉
vernonvanderbilt
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): The only reason I glossed over/ignored the kid factor is because that didn’t seem to be the axis of the conversation. People at the moment appear to be having more of a problem with him sleeping with a woman at all than knocking one up.
As for the 10% assessment…like I said, plus or minus a partisan study or two. I don’t pretend to have any idea how many of us there are, because I don’t believe it’s possible to have a completely accurate survey on the topic. 10% is just a recognizable number that supports the idea that we are a minority. It could easily have been 20% or 30%.
The Gay Numbers
@vernonvanderbilt: Common vocabulary is about more than just you. This seems to be the part that confuses you. I understand why you have these defenses, but to me that’s what they are. When i speak of a common vocabulary I mean a language that does not require me to re-learn basic language every time we meet since pressumably even within yourself that language could be mutating to mean someting else from today. When I asked the closeted guy whether he was in the closet- I was looking for a common language that is understood because I am not interested in dating closeted guys. When I say “are you in the closet?” I don’t want to hear after weeks of wasting my time dating someone “well I am out according to what i think that means.” Here, in this guys case- he was not out to any of his family or friends to whom he was very close since he had discussed it previously with me. I sure in his mind he was “out” because as he said “his family didn’t need to know his sex life.” but, that’s not a common language that everyone would have understood to be the definition of the term “out.” this is the problem with relying too much on avoiding labels. They do have value for honesty as much as other techniques.
The Gay Numbers
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): Re Women. They are used to having men cater to them. Straight men are always having to fight to get sex from women on average (on average) so some women expect men to focus on them. I have several women friend like that. They don’t quite know what to do with me because I am not like the straight men in their lives who will listen to them yammer on about nothing. As I told one friend, I am not trying to get in your pants. You should remember that when having a conversation with me.
vernonvanderbilt
@The Gay Numbers: Okay, so tell me what word(s) you think I’m self-defining. I’m still not seeing how I’m defining anything differently than the majority of GLBT people would. Give me at least one example of what’s hanging you up so I can at least try to figure out what I’m doing/saying wrong. I’d rather have that than have you trying to shut me out of the discussion because you disagree with my vocabulary.
scott ny'er (formely scott)
I guess communication here is the key (meaning I just wasn’t understanding Joey’s problem – but he didn’t answer my initial question about it so I feel ok). So am I to understand this is really just about the guy in the story mislabeling himself? If he just said, he was BI, then all would be well in Joey’s and Mark’s world.
I’m sorry. I know, I’m going to sound really off putting, but c’mon. I get you don’t want gays to be misrepresented but IMO, I’m finding this a non-issue. I actually sense some hysteria on Joey’s part and maybe I’m just reacting to that.
Maybe I have a lot to learn about this issue, I don’t know.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@vernonvanderbilt:
That’s it.
I don’t think we are.
Look at the roman or greek times?
Even Iran before the Americans put the Shah in place was really progressive towards Gays…
We actually are NOT a minority.
No offence right but your forefathers have rewritten history all over the shop! I mean they were religous fundementalists..
You know how wasteful I think all this gay marriage talk is?? In the UK..it just happened…
In posh American schools and British boarding schools..the stuff guys get up to! (I went to one..)
In sport locker rooms, in office parties at the city or wall street..I could go on.
As much as I rate Kinsey, I do think we need to do a more 21st century test…
The crazy religous right in your country, mine, all over the place have re-written history and facts.
So no.
Culturally we ARE a minority BUT not genetically.
scott ny'er (formely scott)
@The Gay Numbers: But maybe they thought it was something and not nothing. Maybe they are just yammerers and like to talk, no?
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@scott ny’er (formely scott):
Scott I think Joey has pointed out that their is a larger issue around this relative not so MAJOR issue.
When he is talking, he is looking at the wider picture, the right wing folk etc..
And like I said, he had a kid..
I just feel that for young people like Joey to start coming out, it’s really important to at least try and create a community, that at least makes some sort of sense.
We live in a world of labels, that’s NOT going to go away. But if someone chooses to not label themselves (I don’t except saying I’m gay or liberal), then that is their CULTURAL right, not genetic.
vernonvanderbilt
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): Well, that’s an interesting stance to take. I’m not sure I concur, but I agree that a modern study using modern methods would probably have very interesting results. I don’t believe we’re in the majority, but I also live in Middle of Nowhere, Ohio, where testosterone levels are regulated by local government to ensure proper standards are met.
A couple of small points I feel compelled to make though:
1. With the Greeks, it was a cultural thing. I don’t know one way or the other if it was a biological imperative (I don’t know many modern Greeks, much less ancient ones). All I get from reading about it is that it was considered part of the process, if you will.
2. Don’t even get me started on the fundies. I’m working on being less excitable about stupid stuff, because stress is unhealthy. 😛
3. I do know for a fact that lots of “queer play” goes on amongst allegedly straight guys. But just like having sex with a woman a few times does not necessarily make you straight or bi, having sex with a guy a few times does not necessarily make you bi or gay.
Mark
@scott ny’er (formely scott): You’re just fine Scott. You haven’t walked in my shoes and I haven’t walked in yours.
If we all had the same rights and privileges in this world, this conversation wouldn’t even be happening. Of course, then as you put it, it would be a non-issue.
The Gay Numbers
@scott ny’er (formely scott): Maybe. or it could be just yammering. I have learned selective listening. When they say something that’s really important in their lives- I listen. When it seems like yammering, I will ask them to repeat it, and depending on what they say in the repeating, I will guestimate if it’s really important. I only make a big deal when they act if I must listen to the yammering or else? That’s where the whole “you can’t threat me with sex” part comes into play from my experience.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@vernonvanderbilt:
To me the play makes you BI, genetically but NOT culturally.
I am genetically GAY, I can’t just play with a woman even if I wanted to cause my dick remains SOFT. I feel NOTHING.
NADA, ZILCH, RIEN.
But culturally, I’m sure I could play Bi or Straight..like many gay men who are genetically GAY.
I didn’t think that about the ancient greeks at all. It was instinctive and because their was no such thing as cultural labels…things happened.
Not all the greek kings had male lovers at all…
Again, I wouldn’t consider BI’s gay as I would consider them straight. Not sure why they are part of LGBT to be fair..but whatever..
So I think majority wise, GAYS are a minority, say 20%
So I think majority wise, Straights are a minority say 30%
So I think majority wise BI’S are the manority say 50%
GENETICALLY.
But Culturally…
Gays, 10-15%
Bi’s 5%
Straights 80-85%
The Gay Numbers
@vernonvanderbilt: I don’t thinkw e are talking about experimenting are we? I say that people can be questioning and testing the waters, but that does not sound like guy in the story.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@scott ny’er (formely scott):
Ha, ha! It’s yammering!
Women talk just for the sake of it and it’s such a load of hot air and posturing!
It means something? Yeah right.
I can’t stand it. I’m the only guy in my family,yikes!
Lol, I’m forever falling out with my female friends!
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@The Gay Numbers:
Heh, I know!
And it’s like but ‘it’s how I feel..my feelings’…and I’m like, wtf? No it’s not. We’re going round in circles, don’t you want a solution to your issue? And it’s like ‘Urgh, I was just talking’ but I’m like, that’s all you are talking about. Now if you were trying to be witty or bantering, then great! But when all you do is yammer? No.
But like I said, it’s just a preference thing. I’m no jock but I do like banter, knocking shoulders and stuff like that..
vernonvanderbilt
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): Your numbers are reasonable enough, and they certainly sound about right as far as I’m concerned, so I don’t intend to argue against you on that.
You do bring up an interesting point about the Greek culture, but I’d have to research a bit deeper than I have to see exactly what I think about your hypothesis. On paper, it seems to hold water. My only sticking point is that, as far as I have read, homosexuality was generally confined to a student/teacher relationship, or a “fellow warriors” sort of scenario. As far as I knew, it was frowned upon in most other circumstances, and so it was less commonplace among non-warriors of a similar, “adult” age.
@The Gay Numbers: Again, I did not read the story itself. I didn’t expect to find anything interesting or valuable at a site called “Butt.” From what I gather, this fellow’s situation would probably qualify as something significantly more than experimentation. However, does that mean all the closeted guys who got married when they were younger and didn’t come out until they were in their 40’s or 50’s aren’t gay? Does it mean that if a guy gets a chick pregnant he’s not gay? These are questions that come up in my own mind when a discussion goes like this one.
I only took the path of logic I chose because it sounded like Joey was not only condemning “closet bisexuals,” which I suppose I can take issue with on some level, but also any self-identified gay man who had ever done anything with a woman sexually. That’s what I disagree with. Perhaps I misread him, perhaps not, but that’s where I’m coming from here. I don’t disagree that the labels have meaning on some level; I simply don’t think they’re entirely without some wiggle room now and then.
scott ny'er (formely scott)
@Mark: Thanks Mark. You saying that, for some reason felt nice. I think I need a BF. Or maybe a GF. Maybe I’m a woman because i’m yammering now, aren’t I. I think I’m done for tonight. You guys provided some interesting viewpoint and thoughts.
Alec
This is ridiculous.
1. I’m gay. I only date men. I have on a few occasions had sex with women (I can count the number of times with one hand). Tellingly, I was horny and relatively younger at the time (17, 18, 19 and 22, respectively).
2. I’ve had to break off friendships with women when it became clear they expected more. Sometimes, though, I’ve slept with them. It just happened (and no, not only when I was intoxicated). I don’t think it was a good or bad thing; the reason I brought i up originally was because IN MY EXPERIENCE two of them didn’t like condoms. I thought that was unusual, largely because I assumed everyone else associated unprotected sex with a huge risk of STDs.
3. I find it borderline offensive that people like Joey the high schooler assume I’m bisexual (I’m extremely skeptical about male bisexuality) because however “fluid” sexuality may be, in my experience sexual attractions appear to be largely fixed according to gender, with men.
4. There’s no gay brotherhood. When the LGBT community achieves equal rights and social status, the distinctions will begin to disappear. That’s part of the plan. I have about as much in common with the Log Cabin Republicans as I do with the Club for Growth. After the political battles are over, or subside sufficiently, we all go our own way. That’s the way this stuff works. I recognize it will never disappear entirely, but the gay “community” as a concept is broader than it is in reality; in reality, the sexual attraction and sense of alienation created by social prejudice is the only common element.
The Gay Numbers
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): couple of OT stories: a) I had a female friend call me yesterday to tell me she’s cheating with a married guy. I was bluntly saying things to her like – well what do you want, etc. What I think she wanted was for me to tell her that she’s doing something morally wrong or whatever, but she just kept repeating herself “I am cheating with a married guy.” I kept saying but you already know the reasons why this is wrong so let’s discuss what you want. That’s 20 minutes I am not going to get back.
b) Another friend has the habit of dating the same type of guy over and over. I call them the you get to close they pull away, you pull away, they get close types. For 3 years now every time she changes the guy she’s dating I have to hear the same story about she’s confused. She does not understand why they keep pulling away. I have to then repeat back the same points I’ve made to her a thousand times. I was thinking as a joke of recording the conversation so that I could play it back to her later, but that would piss her off so I want. What I mean by yammering is that they seem to let their feelings supplant rational thought processes about their own behaviors. They are used to dating guys who will just tell them what they want to hear. I don’t do that. On some level, I think its why the come to me with these stories.
The Gay Numbers
@vernonvanderbilt: I think Joey’s main point was guys who are being coy or treating it like its hip to say I ‘ve done it with women. I have friends like that. Some of them have never had sex with women, but they will say stupid shit like “well ia m sexually open.” And I am thinking- yeah that sounds great at a party — when we were 21. But now in my 30s, I m like whatever you like- like it. Just be upfront about it so everyone is on the same page as much as possible and clear. The last part is really important- clear. For instance, saying you are bi to me is pretty clear. It doesn’t mean you don’t maybe like mostly men or mostly wome or whatever. All it means is that at some point to put it crudely you liked pussy and you like dick. That’s all it means to me. I’ve read enough and met enough to know that it can mean different things. I find it more honest than straight or gay if youa re neither either of those things. I think what Joey is getting at is the whole mutability part of it that coyness allows to fester. That bi guys are bi guys rather than oh i just woke up one day and decided not to be gay. or I just woke up one day and decided I like both. That you always liked both to some degree.
Mark
@Alec: This 45 year old gay man who is in his 24th year of same-sex married bliss will offend you then:
I don’t assume you are bisexual. In my opinion, you are bisexual. You prefer men. Good for you. But women are not out of the question for you (based on your narratives). Are they? Are you telling me that even today if a woman that you found charming and attractive were to propose a friendly fuck, you wouldn’t even consider it?
There is nothing wrong being bisexual. Wow, I never thought I’d be defending bisexuals.
Bisexual does not mean only that you are attracted to men and women equally.
You are not a Kinsey 6 or 0. I suspect you don’t regret being with those women, in fact, it wouldn’t surprise me, if now and then you remember fondly that warm wet feeling.
The bigger question is, why do gold star fags (who are exclusively homosexual and always have been) such as myself, threaten you so much?
We don’t live in that perfect world yet. You have more options available to you.
vernonvanderbilt
@The Gay Numbers: Well, I will absolutely agree with you there. I just didn’t get the sense that that was where Joey was drawing the line. On re-reading the comments he made, I can see how that interpretation could be made. If that’s what he actually meant, then there’s no discussion necessary as far as I’m concerned. I will allow him the opportunity to clarify his own meaning, though. I still stand by what I said before regarding my own interpretation of his arguments, but if I misinterpreted, then I will accept that. It’s not always easy to be clear on the internet, after all. You really do miss a lot when you cut vocal inflection and body language from the equation.
You’re absolutely right, though. Things would be a lot easier for everyone if people were simply honest about what they want/like instead of dancing around it.
Sam
Joey-
I hope you’re not getting too discouraged or really feeling like there’s no real gay community, just because some few gay guys occasionally have sex with women. I know when I was an indie rock type in high school, we always used to deride other indie rock kids who liked a few mainstream bands for not being “indie enough.” You might want to consider that there’s a cohesive, strong gay community out there, and the only reason that it seems like there isn’t – to you – is that you’re writing some of them off as not “gay enough.”
I’m gay. I haven’t had sex with a woman since my Sophomore year of high school (probably before you were born). I don’t have any intention of being in a relationship with a woman for the rest of my life.
And yet, there are a very few women I’m attracted to. They tend to be “boyish,” or muscular. It’s highly unlikely that there would ever be a situation where I’d have the opportunity to hook up with one of them, but if the stars aligned, I have no doubt that I could do it, would want to do it and would enjoy it.
So, if I’m 99% gay, does that really make me “bisexual?” Should I call myself “bisexual” and then have women think I’m looking to be with them, when really, I want to be with men? Isn’t a label’s only purpose to be useful?
Gay men want to be with, sleep with and have relationships with men. This will include some men who sometimes have sex with women but still primarily want to be with men. I’ll bet you won’t find this as divisive as you fear once you’re out in the community. And if you want a term to refer to men who ONLY have sex with men, there is one: homosexual.
Mark
@Sam: You said:So, if I’m 99% gay, does that really make me “bisexual?” Yes, sadly, you are bisexual, with a strong preference for men.
Damn it, if we only lived in a perfect world, where we all had the same rights and privileges!
Alec
@Mark: Congrats on your years of happiness. But I really think you read me wrong.
When I was in high school I had sex with women (and men). But when I fantasized about sex, it wasn’t with women (in all but the more kinky scenarios, at least). I consider that, in retrospect, as part of the coming out process.
I can sustain an erection when I have sex with women (I know some men cannot), but I attribute this more to the physical act of touching another human being than I do to attraction. This came up in conversation with the last woman I had sex with, and she asked me if I thought about guys when we were having sex. And I responded honestly, that I really was more into the act than anything else and the sensation of physical contact. Pretty hard for me (no pun intended) to sustain some ethereal mental fantasy when engaged in the act.
Anyway….I’m not a Kinsey six or zero, I’ve known that for a while now (it only measures behavioral patterns, IIRC). But that doesn’t mean I’m bisexual. If I’m bisexual, every gay man who has had sex with a woman is bisexual. Which means that “true” gay men are a tiny minority, if self-reporting is to be believed at all.
Mark
@Alec: You get an A+. Please understand I do so respect your honesty.
I’m pretty confident that I share this view with Joey. You’re right, based on your sexual history you could never be a Kinsey 6 or 0. I go on my husband’s experience to give clarity to the scale. He is 9 years older than me. I suspect that he would fully agree with you about the basic physiological response (e.g., a strong wind and all that). But where you and he differ is that he regrets having ever had to go through those experiences. It robbed him of a whole part of his life. He should not have had to fuck a female to be sure he was gay. This may sound strong but society (i.e., his family, friends, school, work, co-workers, classmates, siblings, and on and on) raped him. He never got to fully mature and experience life as his true self–that of a gay man. Yes, he fucked women before he came out and yes he isn’t proud of it and he is ashamed of it. In my view that is a psychic if not soul level rejection of those experiences. But this was all before he came out of the closet. In my view you start at 6 on the scale after you come out with this basic history.
It is exhausting but important. None of this would really matter if, at least here in the United States, we all had the same rights and privileges. Then we wouldn’t give a flying you-know-what about why sexual orientation matters. My best to you. Of course, I didn’t really mean to offend you.
Mark
@Alec: Sadly too, gay men, truly gay men that is, are a tiny minority. As I’ve discovered over the years, we’re becoming a minority within the very minority we’re supposed to represent. But us gold star fags will persevere no matter what!
Alec
@Mark: I think, and this might reflect an age difference between us (and me and your partner) that the sexual and social landscape has changed.
I think, perhaps, that the experiences might be too different at this point in time. When he came of age, homosexuality was still seen as a moral character flaw. It wasn’t when I was in high school; by some people, yes, but it was being contested. It was very different. Things change fast.
I cannot and I will not identify as bisexual. To me, that means at least being open to not only a sexual fling with a woman, but also a romantic relationship. And down that road lies ruin, for all parties involved…for me, at any rate.
I do look forward to the day when none of it matters anymore. When people stop caring. I am skeptical that the day will ever arrive; I think it will be easier to achieve legal equality for same-sex relationships than it will be to achieve social equivalency between gays, bisexuals and straights. Still, dare to dream, I guess.
Mark
Well, then I retract my earlier statement. I was wrong. You are gay. Not bisexual. IMHO.
Not that it really matters what I think anyway.
I hope you find your happiness with a man that will truly appreciate you.
burton21
This is, by far, the most interesting, intelligent, and productive dialogue I’ve seen on Queerty in my 2 years of reading. Thanks to everyone for their contributions! I’ve really enjoyed reading all of them, even the ones I strongly, strongly disagree with.
@vernonvanderbilt: I just want to say, I really appreciate the eloquence with which you convey your thoughts. I agree with everything you’ve posted, but further, I think your language specifically contributed to a higher “tone,” if you will, of the discussion usually found on this site. Your phrasing of your ideals was excellent, and I wholeheartedly cannot fathom what self-definitions you were imposing in your comments. In short, you rock.
Kirsten
@Alec: I agree with a lot of the things you are saying. The sexual and social landscape of the world has changed. I know people who have been in long term relationships with both sexes. I have dated both but right now i have a girlfriend and we’ll see where it goes. I do get the feeling that you’re older that me by quite a bit. I’m still in high school and i have to say, at my small town school there is very little acceptance. My girlfriend and i have been together for almost three months but no one knows and we are going to keep it that way until we go to college. It’s not because I’m embarrassed of my relationship or the fact that I’m gay because i am definitely not. I just don’t want the slanders and everything else that comes with coming out in high school, especially directed at my amazing girl :). I agree with you that there will never be a time when people stop caring. But i am confused by what exactly you mean by “not caring” Do you mean total overall acceptance or where everyone is so wrapped up in themselves it’s kind of a “to hell with everyone else and their sexuality” attitude because i see them as totally different.
TANK
@Joey:
I don’t think that these people who say that sexuality is fluid, and that there aren’t fixed sexual orientations are hurting the gay rights movement. No one takes them seriously. They’re on the fringe. Bisexuals who are honest won’t say that sexuality is “fluid” or even more fluid. They’re bisexual, not confused. The kinsey scale is being grossly misrepresented. The scale doesn’t indicate that individuals have fluid sexualities.
For some rare people, their sexuality may undergo some change as they grow older. This is not common, and there’s no good research to back it.
They’re very vocal, though. They revel in obscurity and ambiguity and will do a lot to protect that. After all, it’s lucrative in porno…but that’s not reality. People who matter don’t take people who say that sexual orientation is fluid “changes” from one year to the next seriously, so there’s nothing to worry about… They will never have a voice, because they’re not being honest and are spreading falsity.
There is no indication that sexual orientation is mutable, or can be changed. But right now it’s politically expedient to draw attention to this fact. In reality, however, the gay rights movement is about being able to be out and proud of your sexual orientation. The nature/nurture debate hasn’t be definitvely settled on the side of either, and ultimately, it shouldn’t matter. One thing EVERYONE who matters and understands what this is about knows that sexual orientation is not a choice, and can’t be changed. So you’ve nothing to worry about. Let people label themselves whatever they want…because it’s not causing any harm…it may annoy you…but just don’t care. These people are usually young and tiresome. Lotsa negative memes go about the gay community…don’t believe ’em…they’re memes.
Kid A
As an ACTUAL bisexual, I just want to clear up a misconception. Several gay posters here have characterized bisexuality as damaging to the notion of fixed orientation. This is because they see “straight” and “gay” as the only legitimate orientations, therefore anything that doesn’t fit the two must be “fluid.”
Bisexuality isn’t floating between two orientations. It is an orientation in itself and is as immutable as straightness or gayness. It’s pretty simple and takes only 30 seconds of thinking in another person’s shoes to figure out.
Kid A
Also, some posters have said that identifying as gay while sleeping with women is damaging to the gay community, which is true, but I believe is MUCH more damaging to the bisexual community. When it is so stigmatized to be bi that people who clearly have sexual attraction to both sexes have to “pick a team” then there is clearly something wrong with how the LGBT community sees itself.
And to the poster who said that he doesn’t see why there’s a B in LGBT, I’d like for you to tell a FORMER employer, FORMER family memebers, and FORMER street corner thugs that I’m not really queer and that all their bullshit was a waste. Because they certainly thought I belonged alongside you.
Jason
I’m 40 and agree with 17 year old Joey. If you identify as gay why in the world are you sleeping with women? It is one thing to sleep with a woman before you have come to terms with your sexuality, but once you have come out what in the world is making you sleep with women? you are aren’t gay. you are bi.
vernonvanderbilt
@burton21: Thanks for the kind words. I’m glad they struck a chord with someone. Now you just need to share your own take on the issue. 😉
The Gay Numbers
@Kid A: I don’t remember seeing anyone saying that bisexuality is mutable. In fact, I have read the opposite here. People are saying that people need to stop being coy by pretending sexuality is mutable. Within the person, it’s fixed. Ie, an bisexual is a bisexual. A gay is a gay. A straight is a straight. The issue is where people are being coy for cultural reasons by not defining what they are or because they simply are questioning (a separate matter). I have no problem with someone saying “I am bisexual.” I have a problem someone saying oh, I can change my mind at any moment. This is not the sexuality that I understand. Sexuality maybe of many different variants across multiple individuals, but I don’t believe it’s fluid within any one individual. There maybe greater awareness within any one individual, but that’s about it. The idea however hat one says I am gay, but I like to sleep with women is b/s. You aren’t gay. You are bi. If you say, I slept with women, but now I decided over time that I realized I am gay. It’s complicated, but it’s not so complicated that one can say its fluid. Fluid is a misunderstanding of the circumstances.
Joey
Alec and Sam: YOU ARE BOTH BISEXUAL. I’m sorry, but it couldn’t be more simple than that. You can call yourselves whatever you want, but any man who has any kind of attraction to the opposite sex is bisexual to at least some small degree. I really resent this whole thing that seems to be happening in society in which people are basically saying that it’s “not cool” to be attracted to one gender, that the whole idea of a “gay community” is passe and old. I’m sorry, but really, FUCK YOU if you think that. Please, go off and have sex with as many gals as you like, but don’t call yourself a gay man and contribute to the stigma that exists among many that there really is no such thing as a “gay man”, that a gay man is actually interested in the opposite sex. Christ almighty, what is this world coming to?
Joey
Oh, and let me make it clear: My issue is NOT AT ALL about men who have sex with women before they come out. I want to make that part very clear, because those men were having sex with women as part of an attempt to cover up their true selves. They didn’t have sex with the women because they wanted to, and I think that’s the big distinction here.
It just really terrifies me how there are so many people out there these days who are trying to pervert the meaning of the word gay and destroy any sense of community that has been developed over the last 40 years since the Stonewall Riots took place. I’m sorry Alec, but if you willingly have sex with women, whether you like it or not, that makes you biologically bisexual.
I just fear that one day young real gay people will have nowhere left to go, that they’ll never be able to identify themselves as they truly are because closet bisexuals like Alec and Sam will have taken over the word “gay” and will have destroyed all the progress that has been made for real gay people like us. I fear the idea when young real gay people will feel pressured into having sex with women because everybody else will be saying that “sexuality is completely fluid”, that it’s not normal for them to be exclusively attracted to the same sex. This is a genuine assault upon the values on which the gay community has been built, and I for one am angry about it.
John From England
@Joey:
Joey, Alec lol is just being contrary and arguing. He did say that he identifies himself as Bi but it’s the millitant gays who try and tell him he’s gay.
So in all fairness, gays are to blame for that. They are really irrationally prejudiced against ANY guy being genuinely Bi.
John From England
@Kid A:
I didn’t mean offense…I guess it’s different here in Europe..
If you’re Bi, you’re Bi. You tend to be able to pass. It’s completely diff being Bi, I mean you don’t need to go around screaming it because you can easily be with women. I think most Bi’s are with women.
I guess if you’re Bi and you fall for a guy, then I can see why you are put into the ‘Gay’ community..a bit BUT you’re still not Gay because how can you understand not genuinely or physically being able to find the opp sex appealing? You can. As soon as you get married with a girl, have kids..it’s cool..
It’s not the same as being Gay and feeling self hate cause you feel you will never be ‘normal’ (whatever that is)..
I mean being Bi is ace! You get best of both worlds…!
John From England
@Kid A:
“Bisexuality isn’t floating between two orientations. It is an orientation in itself and is as immutable as straightness or gayness. It’s pretty simple and takes only 30 seconds of thinking in another person’s shoes to figure out.”
Dude that is EXACTLY what we’ve been trying to say.
Not sure who the poster or posters you’re talking about….?
Joey
John, where did Alec say that he’s bi? He explicitly says that he “cannot” and “will not” identify himself as bisexual. As for you, just out of curiosity, not at all trying to be aggressive or confrontational: Why drove you to at least “try” to have sex with women like you mentioned before? I’m not criticizing you for it, as you’ve been on my side during this entire discussion, but what drove you to try to do it?
John From England
@Alec:
“I cannot and I will not identify as bisexual. To me, that means at least being open to not only a sexual fling with a woman, but also a romantic relationship. And down that road lies ruin, for all parties involved…for me, at any rate.”
You are genetically Bisexual. You CAN’T change that.
BUT you are culturally Gay. Fair enough, it’s just were your PREFERENCE lies.
John From England
@scott ny’er (formely scott):
“Maybe I’m a woman because i’m yammering now, aren’t I”
Ha, that made me lol!
You’re not yammering…there’s a BIG difference between talking and yammering.
Yammering tends to be if you’re..well..yammering..
Heck, life is good at least you can choose who you want to get to bed with? You have lots of choices!
julian
Wow, who even cares if he’s bisexual or not? The semantics don’t matter. What matters is that he’s sharing his experience, and it’s an interesting one. Not to mention he sounds like a great dad.
Chad
What a interesting conversation. I really enjoyed reading it. I appreciate that fact that it was intelligent. I am one of those guys that had a relationship with a woman before I came out. I want nothing to do with women in that way now. I have been with my boyfriend for 5 yrs.
I have to say that I agree with Joey and those that agreed with him. I also have to say that I’m very impressed with his maturity and intelligents. When a lot of kids his age don’t care about things and aren’t that knowledgeable.
Pragmatist
@Joey:
Hi, Joey. You wrote: “The idea behind gay rights is that gay people can’t help being who they are, and that therefore it’s only fair they are given all the opportunities to live the best life they can, considering the card God dealt them.”
That’s not “the” idea behind gay rights. It is *one* idea — albeit an idea that is narrow, paternalistic, mildly offensive, and soon-to-be obsolete.
I do NOT think the interests of the GLBT community are best served by promoting the idea that GLBT people are victims whom God dealt a bad “card.” Who needs that nonsense? I’m proudly bisexual, and I don’t think for even one minute that I’ve been dealt a bad card for being the way I am.
To the contrary, I feel very lucky that I’m able to appreciate the beauty and companionship of both men and women, and that I have an automatic reason to question society’s norms and exempt myself from them as I see fit. Everyone has the right to do that, but not everyone finds the occasion.
GLBT people deserve civil rights because ALL people deserve civil rights, irrespective of how they choose to lead their lives. Times are changing fast. We don’t need anybody’s sympathy — we can do much better than that. What we need is a recognition that all people have the right to live in whatever way pleases them, so long as they’re not harming others.
In the early stages of the GLBT rights movement, the notion that sexuality was an immutable, binary, inborn trait served GLBT people adequately. It was a way to appeal to the dominant culture’s sense of pity; pity, of course, was preferable to violent contempt. But these days, that old rubric is looking more constraining than liberating.
Assume, for a moment, that sexuality could be proven to be a matter of choice. Should GLBT people then be forced to choose the traditional lifestyle? Of course not! All people should be free to be or do whatever pleases them — not because they lack another choice, but because that’s precisely what freedom means!
scott ny'er (formerly scott)
@julian: Exactly.
Pragmatist
@Joey: Another point. You wrote: “I fear the idea when young real gay people will feel pressured into having sex with women because everybody else will be saying that ‘sexuality is completely fluid.'”
Think about what you just said. It doesn’t quite make sense.
If, in the future, mainstream society becomes comfortable with the premise that sexuality is fluid (and I pray for that day to arrive soon) — why would anyone feel pressure to behave a certain way?
I think an analogy may be in order. You’d admit that society already thinks that taste is fluid, right? That is, I may not like shrimp or eggplant, but it’s certainly possible that I could acquire a taste for them in the future. Right?
Well, I’ll venture to say that very few people feel “pressured” to like shrimp or eggplant. Oh, sure, if you’re not a seafood person, you’ll occasionally be invited to a birthday party at a seafood restaurant or whatever. But apart from a couple of “hey, why don’t you try a bite of THIS?”, nobody wants to pressure you to eat seafood. In fact, most seafood restaurants offer an alternative precisely for people who aren’t in the mood.
I think a future society that embraces fluid sexuality would be just like that. There’d be little reason for judgment, and correspondingly little reason for any real pressure.
scott ny'er (formerly scott)
@Pragmatist: Another fine statement.
I mean, I really feel that BiSexual’s are under fire from Joey. It’s like he’s saying that BiSexuals are intentionally destroying Gays and what they strove for. It’s very us vs. them mentality. Similar to saying that people who are half black and half white can’t take part in Martin Luther King’s marches, etc and are undermining the Black people’s movement by saying they are black, when they aren’t.
It’s a weird thought process and I also find it weird to hear someone young say, what the gay people have fought for over 40 years. If Mark or someone older said that, I could understand it better and swallow it but when a 17 year old says something like this and really hasn’t lived as much, it seems to be talking out of turn. I would find it resonant more if a person who actually was at the Stonewall Riots said he found exception to the fact that many BiSexuals call themself Gay and they are trying to pervert the meaning of the word gay and destroy any sense of community.
If it was just a word problem, I’d get it. But to me it seems that Joey is having a problem with more than the use of the word Gay and how BIs shouldn’t use it because by definition they are not Gay. It’s more BIs are screwing the Gays. And that’s really not true, it’s a negative, warped view and not going to win you friends in a LGBT community and will separate that community.
Could it be true? Are there some BIs who might be doing that? I guess. I don’t really see an upside to being called one over the other. Again, I’ve said I’m Gay because I can’t deal with the BS from Gays and Heteros when I’d say BI. It’s easier to get thru the world, like labeling makes it easier to get thru the world.
Pragmatist
@TANK: Actually, there’s a TON of evidence that sexuality is indeed mutable. However, there’s no evidence (that I am aware of) that indicates a person can willfully control his or her sexuality. That is, the ebbs and flows either occur over time or are prompted by the situation.
(For example, a large number of straight men legitimately enjoy gay sex in prison, but then never desire it again after they return to an integrated environment.)
Plenty of people experience changes in their sexuality over time. I used to be 100% straight, for example. I felt sexually and romantically attracted to girls only. Even though I had plenty of occasions to feel attracted to guys (such as in locker rooms), I never did.
Then, one day, I started liking guys too. For a while, I found myself strongly preferring men. Then, the balance shifted the other way, and then back again. These days I do think I prefer men, but only by a small margin. (Interestingly, I strongly prefer women if I’ve been drinking. I’ve never come up with a good explanation for that.)
John From England
@Pragmatist:
You don’t need to understand. You’re just Bi.
Like I said, a lot of people don’t even realise that they are Bi…
scott ny'er (formerly scott)
@John From England: Glad you found it funny. It was my intent. 🙂
Pragmatist
@vernonvanderbilt: That was brilliantly put. What a gem. Thanks.
John From England
@scott ny’er (formerly scott):
Why don’t you say you’re straight??
Why do you have to say you’re gay? You’re not. why not say your straight?
I’m glad you brought up the mixed race thing…cause people are mixed… NOT black or White but mixed, like YOU.
But if someone wants to march and help, that’s great. I just don’t know why the Bi people here say they are Gay? Is it cause straight people reject you, like white’s reject mixed race people…so therefore you side with who will take you??
Why put yourself through the aggro of being Gay when you can lead a straight life??
Sounds like mo trouble then anything…odd..
Pragmatist
@John From England: “I’m glad you brought up the mixed race thing…cause people are mixed… NOT black or White but mixed, like YOU.”
Ah, but race is a poor medium for the kind of argument you’re trying to make. Race, famously, by a near-consensus of sociologists, is a social construct. And, indeed, there aren’t people you’d encounter in a diverse society today (such as the UK) who are 100% white or 100% black.
Nobody suspects me of having black ancestry, but I do have some. What am I, then? (A: I’m not really anything. I’m what most people in society imprecisely call Caucasian.)
Pragmatist
@Pragmatist: That should have said:
“There aren’t many people you’d encounter…”
Mark
@Joey: After my last entry last night to Alec I wondered how you might respond. I actually thought that maybe I jumped the gun by agreeing to his view that he is gay especially after re-reading his post that got me to respond so strongly to him in the first place Alec @no. 86:
“1. I’m gay. I only date men. I have on a few occasions had sex with women (I can count the number of times with one hand). Tellingly, I was horny and relatively younger at the time (17, 18, 19 and 22, respectively).
2. I’ve had to break off friendships with women when it became clear they expected more. Sometimes, though, I’ve slept with them. It just happened (and no, not only when I was intoxicated). I don’t think it was a good or bad thing; the reason I brought i up originally was because IN MY EXPERIENCE two of them didn’t like condoms. I thought that was unusual, largely because I assumed everyone else associated unprotected sex with a huge risk of STDs.”
It’s the second part that made re-question my final response to Alec. The way it reads, Alec has continued to have sexual encounters with women beyond what he said in the first part–his early younger years. So you may indeed be correct in your assertion that his is bisexual.
Alec – only you can clear up the confusion between the two statements you made.
Anthony in Nashville
@Alec:
That is very interesting. Did that last woman you had sex with know or suspect you were gay? That’s is a strange question to ask someone you must slept with.
Scott
Gay men having sex with women. They’re just going through a “phase”. They’re having trouble accepting themselves. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
I’ve dated 3 men who slept with women. One woman thought she was pregnant for a month when she missed her period. Then when the period came he was devastated because he wanted a baby. She was trying to get him to marry her.
I am personally proud of the fact that I’ve never slept with a woman and that I don’t need to in order to know I don’t want to. If I wanted a baby I’d pony up the $25k for a surrogate mother or adopt.
Joey
In response to “Pragmatist”, let me make something absolutely clear- I am as proud a gay man as you could possibly be. I would never change my sexuality, even if I could, and if my comment about gay people “having to make best with the card we’ve been dealt” came across as self-loathing, or insinuated that I’m not proud of being gay, that’s not at all how I meant it.
The very reason that I feel so passionately about this is because I AM PROUD, and I’m concerned about how the gay community is being threatened by stupid individuals who just want to seem “worldly” and “intellectual” by being “open” about their sexuality.
I’m sorry, but unlike you and Scott, I didn’t come out of the closet to try and “rebel against society”. You seem to have this idea that the gay rights movement is just about being different, when infact the very reason it exists is not because of people trying to fight the establishment but because they just want their equal rights as human beings who are attracted to the same sex. It’s really as simple as this: Don’t call yourself gay unless you’re attracted exclusively to the same sex.
All I can say is that I’m deeply, deeply disturbed by this whole “sexuality is fluid” movement that is being forced upon the young gay people of this country and the world today. Why Scott and “Pragmatist” do you feel the need to try and force everyone to be bisexual? Why can’t you understand that alot of people are just gay or straight, that not every man wants to fuck pussy? Really, get it through your brains.
I have no problem whatsoever with bisexual people. I believe bisexual people are part of the community. What I resent, however, and fear, is when bisexual people pretend to be something they aren’t and ruin it all for the rest of us. If you’re bi, then SAY YOU’RE BI, don’t lie and say you’re gay, then go sleep with girls, and fuck up everything for the real gay men out there.
The fact is that modern scientific research shows that sexuality is immutable and genetic, just like race or gender. To Scott, please, just fucking grow up. Because of your immature and cowardly inability to be honest, you’re destroying the gay rights movement and fucking things up for real young gay people like me.
I’m just really, really freaked out about this now. I’m seeing it more and more in society, and it signals the end of the gay community as we know it. Harvey Milk must be rolling in his grave.
Joey
Hey Scott (The one who just posted, not the fake gay Scott),
You know, I have nothing at all against bi people. I could probably date a bi guy, but what I couldn’t do is date some wierdo “gay guy” who goes around sleeping with women. I’m sorry, but if I found out my bf had willingly slept with a woman, I’d be way too freaked out, and I’d probably break up with him. I just can’t stand people who think it’s cool to be sexually ambiguous. I want to know 100% that I won’t come home one day and find my “gay bf” fucking a girl’s pussy. That, to me, would be truly disturbing.
Mark
@Pragmatist: Please cite your sources regarding this so called “TON” of evidence that sexuality is mutable. The most current comprehensive work on sexual fluidity was published last year by professor Lisa M. Diamond at the University of Utah entitled Sexual Fluidity : Understanding Women’s Love and Desire. Even professor Diamond admitted that while her study was about women’s sexuality fluidity, there has not been enough research done on men’s sexual fluidity, and furthermore she confirms that from the research that has been done, the phenomenon of sexual fluidity is more prevalent in women than in men.
Forced sexuality by “straight” men in prison isn’t really the best example of a defense for mutability. What about the large numbers of men in prison, regardless of their sexual orientation, who don’t have sexual encounters with one another? Why are they able to control their sexual urges?
Believe it or not, 100% exclusively homosexual men really do exist. I’m one of them. I’m 45 years old and have never had sexual relations with a female. Not interested and never have been. I’m still going as strong today with my non-interest sexually in the opposite sex as I was in my teen years. There is no willful control going on inside of me, it just has always been quite natural for me to be the way I am. Even in my most drunken moments in my 20s when I used to go to clubs with my female friends the interest was never there. Perhaps I’ve been fortunate to have had decent and good female friends who respected me as a gay man. Perhaps those same female friends knew intuitively that if they tried to cross the line with me they would no longer be my friends. For whatever reason, I’ve been able to maintain healthy and respectful boundaries with women as an openly gay man.
There really does seem to be a fear or palpable disdain for truly exclusively homosexual men.
When you and others who share your views can provide multiple verifiable examples of couples comprised of a straight man and a gay man where the straight man says that he only fantasizes and desires women but this one man is an anomaly (it could never happen again) but the love was so powerful, and where these same couples have mind-blowing fulfilling sex, then and only then will your thesis on sexual fluidity have any real credibility.
We don’t yet live in that utopian society that queer theorists and many bisexual purists think we do. We still live in a larger political and social reality where labels do matter and effect our everyday lives. My husband of 24 years and counting and I regularly receive our Social Security benefits statements. But so what? Should he die tomorrow, I won’t see a cent of his benefits because my legal marriage certificate from Canada isn’t recognized in our home country. That’s not going to change overnight. The U.S. Census won’t count my husband and I as a couple or family because were two gay men. To them we are two single occupants living in a single family residence. Even the nice neighbors we have living around us aren’t gung-ho about same-sex marriage equality. All it would take for them to solidify their seeming ambivalence on the subject into pure opposition would be a continual exposure to living examples of “false self-identifying gay men” (like Zachary Williams) who demonstrate for them that gay men could really be with women if they just tried harder and as a result conclude it not being necessary to support same-sex marriage equality. Remember, the vast majority of people in this country who sexual minorities need on their side are not some abstract thing. They are real people and they vote.
If we lived in a utopia where everyone was equal and had the same rights and privileges we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.
Tallskin
If I may be permitted to add my twopenneth here.
I can see where young Joey is coming from – his fear that the gay counterculture will be diluted. As do I sometimes, when packs of straight women on Hen nights invade gay clubs etc. When gay writers/artists (here in the UK ) go back into the closet or become discreet.
But who can tell where our societies are evolving to? At the moment in England I seem to see a lot more straight boys seeking out homosex to experiment with – “Yeah mate, I love sucking cock, but I have a girlfriend and we have to be discreet”. This would seem to be, to my mind, a consequence of the death of religion here in the UK.
Ultimately our goal is to achieve total equality with straights so that it won’t matter if one is gay,bi or straight.
But one very important aspect has been left out of the argument here in the frenzy to prove or not that being gay or straight is immutable. And that is the disapproval of homosexual sex acts – this is the world view that says certain sexual acts are ok, ie heterosex and some are bad, ie homosex.
It is worth strongly attacking these prejudiced views as well.
I never hear anyone attacking homophobia on those grounds because we have all been brought up to look down on cocksucking and, even worse, anal intercourse. Even gays suffer from this internalised homosex-phobia. Otherwise we would examine this more.
But just examine this question – What is wrong with homosexual sex? why is sodomy ‘bad’? Why is cock/cunt sex considered good? And why do our debates always get sidelined into discussions about whether we’re born gay or straight? (yes, I understand that this is useful to bash back our enemies, but still …..)
In the ancient roman and greek worlds there was no concept of homo and hetero, just active and passive. You were ok if you fucked, male or female, arse or mouth, but not ok if you took cock. Sort of machismo gone mad!!! Julius Caeser was renowned, when young, for having had a passionate love affair with a King, who reportedly rogered the young Caeser silly.
This all changed with the abominable introduction of christianity into the West (and Islam when it conquored the Mediterranean world) under the emperor Constantine, when certain types of sexual activity (ie homosex) became ‘bad’ and suffered the full force of lawful punishments.
The point I am making is that sexuality does have a large aspect of social conditioning involved in it. And for us to achieve a truly free and liberated sexual future we really need to move on from the gay gene/gay immutability debate (and eliminate the religious injunctions against sex of all types) into broader pastures by questioning, loudly and fiercely, the view that homosex is ‘bad’.
For all you curious people, yes i did fuck girls when I was 16, but that was because I had no male lover, it being the dark ages of the 1970s. If I had had the choice I would definitely have preferred a boyfriend to a girlfriend.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Scott:
Maybe these guys are just Bi?
Live and let live.
That kinda comment is the reason why people like Alec and another poster keep on saying they are Gay and it is why Bi Scott has had to say he’s gay when he’s Bi.
It’s really patronizing to tell someone they are just ‘searching’ when they like and enjoy sleeping with women.
At last Pragmatic and Kid A are proud of being bisexual and won’t be bullied down to say otherwise..
hardmannyc
@ask ena: I’ve actually slept with women very, very, very infrequently. They all know I’m a sexually active gay man, and, even though I’m HIV-, they all insisted I wear a condom.
I can’t imagine any straight woman who hasn’t been locked in an airtight room for the past 25 years not doing the same.
Joey
HardManNYC-
If the women knew you are gay, why would they want to sleep with you? And second, and more importantly, why would you sleep with them? I mean really, I want to get down to the bottom of this- How many self-identified and out “gay men” are there out there who willingly have sex with women, frequently or infrequently?
Mark
@Joey: I don’t think Harvey would be disturbed by sexual fluidity as much as he would the total failure of a “gay community” to come together and really do the work necessary to fight things like Prop 8. I believe that he would be disgusted that the Prop 8 campaign refused to use real gay people to demonstrate who would be hurt by Prop 8.
Here is something else that is interesting: Anne Kronenberg is straight and married and has kids. Lesbianism was a phase for her. But honorably, she at least admits to this fact. She isn’t trying to pretend she something she’s not. Good for her and she doesn’t identify as being ex-gay either.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Mark:
“All it would take for them to solidify their seeming ambivalence on the subject into pure opposition would be a continual exposure to living examples of “false self-identifying gay men” (like Zachary Williams) who demonstrate for them that gay men could really be with women if they just tried harder and as a result conclude it not being necessary to support same-sex marriage equality.”
Yeah, exactly. Now if people would just admit they are Bi and not gay…
Joey
I think Harvey would be horrified by the fact that if things continue as they are, there won’t be any real gay people to fight for anymore. It’s as though exclusively gay people are being pressured into having sex with the opposite sex because “it’s cool to be open and available for anything”, that it’s passe to be exclusively gay or straight. I think he’d be troubled by that, and troubled by the concept people like Scott NY’er and “Pragmatist” have advocated that sexuality is fluid and mutable. Excuse-fucking-me, but I know I’m not going to turn around one day and say that I want pussy. I’m secure in my homosexuality.
Joey
As for Anne Kronenberg, if what you say is true, I would argue that she’s been bisexual all along, but that she “identified” as gay for awhile, just like Scott NY’er, despite that not being her actual biological orientation.
scott ny'er (formerly scott)
@ask ena: Missed your post. Maybe she was horny. Trusted the bloke. Loved the bloke. Combination of any of the above or more. Who knows.
It happened with me tho. I didn’t have one and we did without.
Mark
@Joey: Probably true. But at least she’s not pretending to be a lesbian–which also sort of gets to the crux of this whole conversation. Her Wikipedia entry is here.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Joey:
Yeah exactly.
Just cause your Bi DOESN’T mean you spend your whole frigging life jumping from one sex to the next…though it could? But it just means that genetically you are able to be turned on by both sexes.
Now what you choose to do with it is your perogative.
I know plenty of Bi’s who have only been out with one sex men but find women attractive..and have messed around..
Alec
@Mark: I don’t see any contradiction. I’m 26; 22 was four years ago. And that was the last time.
Joey
@Alec:
It just really creeps me out Alec. It creeps me out how you could use a label that is supposed to only be used by men who are EXCLUSIVELY ATTRACTED TO THE SAME SEX when you willingly have had sex with women and have expressed your enjoyment for it. I mean really, it’s fucked up.
Joey
I just don’t understand Alec what, if you truly are a gay man, would have driven you to stick your penis in a woman’s vagina, and be able and turned on enough to maintain and erection and ejaculate. Also, what did you mean when you said “I thought that was unusual, largely because I assumed everyone else associated unprotected sex with a huge risk of STDs”? Are you saying you, in your experience as a gay man, have always assumed protection was a good idea, but that you learned that when men do it with women it’s a different story?
Alec
@Anthony in Nashville: Yeah. She knew I was gay.
jake
i don’t get a hard on for women – no matter how much i tried to convince myself before i just came out totally to myself. i don’t get those people that can have sex with women and say they are gay….i don’t the mechanics. i have no attraction at all sexually to women
Alec
@Joey: I always have protected sex. And with men, it has never been an issue. But for whatever reason, two women strongly objected to the use of a condom. Which I found strange.
Alec
@Joey: What do you say about guys who have had sex with other men a couple of times, but who only date women, identify as straight and don’t seek out sex with other men? Are they not straight?
I mean, I think calling them bisexual is silly when they don’t think about men regularly, don’t seek out sex with men and don’t date men.
Joey
Did you end up using a condom with them, Alec? Just out of curiousity.
As for your second point, you still have yet to explain what drove you to have sex with them. Why did you do it? Why, if you identify as a GAY man, did you decide to fuck a pussy (and on numerous occasions as well)? I just don’t get how you can call yourself an authentic gay man when in fact your sexual proclivities don’t line up with that label. I know I don’t have the right to judge, but I’m going to say it anyway: I view individuals like you as traitors to the gay community.
As for your point about “straight guys who’ve had sex with men”, how often do you REALLY think that happens? It hardly EVER happens, because most straight men are 100% secure in their sexuality and don’t feel the need to “experiment” with fucking the same sex. For whatever reason, however, every generation of gay men seem to be becoming more and more fluid in their sexualities, and seem to have a stronger desire to fuck the opposite sex. I really just don’t understand it.
Mark
@Alec: The second sentence didn’t explicity refer to the first. If all that was there was the second sentence it would appear as though you’re talking about the present rather than the past.
Mark
@Alec: It depends. Without context given in your hypothetical example one could say it was experimentation (bi-curiosity) or the beginning of a coming out process which includes denial.
Joey
And btw: Just because you identify as something doesn’t make it the case. You may identify yourself as “gay”, but that doesn’t mean you’re biologically homosexual like I am.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Alec:
“for whatever reason, two women strongly objected to the use of a condom. Which I found strange.”
Lol.
They wanted kids!
Alec
@Joey: Yes we used protection. And you’re young, so I’m going to ignore the rest of what you said.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Joey:
Exactly
@Alec:
Alex see my comment about being BI…GENETICALLY but not CULTURALLY.
Just cause you PREFER being with men, it doesn’t make you any less BI.
These guys are BI genetically but NOT culturally.
Just cause you want to sleep with either sex physically doesn’t mean you have to. Which is were the religous right get so angsty and think gay men can change.
This is why woman think they can ‘change’ a gay man. What they don’t realise is that the guy is BI but prefers gay sex.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Joey:
I wouldn’t say traitor at all….
I think he’s just getting genetics mixed up with culture…
Joey, I’m guessing why this is also kinda shady and you can tell me I’m wrong but you’re only human and as a gay man whose just come out…or is out and really can’t find women attractive and has gone through feelings of inadequacy etc etc and poss self hate and now pride for who you are, it kinda sucks to feel like you will be competing for attention with someone of the opp sex.
I’ll be frank, I’m older then you in my late twenties, so I know myself at least a little and no, I couldn’t go out with a guy who is Bisexual. I’m competitive and jealous and I’ll be really paranoid thinking this guy will just go off and want pussy on the side OR when he wants to settle down.
I could have a one night stand but I couldn’t stand going out with someone who is BI.
At least when you’re competing with other guys, you know what he likes or you know were you stand…when he likes women too?? Women who are physically and mentally so diff to men….he’s prob just having fun with you until he meets the right girl to settle down and have kids with..
No way.
Alec
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): Nope. First, we don’t know that sexual orientation is determined genetically. Second, an ability to physically respond doesn’t change your sexual orientation (men in prisons do not have a homosexual orientation even though they respond physically during sex).
The queer theorists and bisexual activists want to impose the bisexual label to all of this, even though the orientation is clearly gay (it would be a Kinsey 5, if we’re using that scale).
TANK
Actually, there’s a TON of evidence that sexuality is indeed mutable.
Do you have any sources? All the mainstream sources (APA, for example), that sexual orientation therapy doesn’t work, and that sexuality isn’t mutable…lol.
However, there’s no evidence (that I am aware of) that indicates a person can willfully control his or her sexuality.
Well, where’s the evidence that sexuality is mutable? That it changes or can change? Wouldn’t you think if this were true, there’d be more success in sexual reorientation or conversion therapies? But where’s the TON of evidence that sexuality is “indeed mutable”? I have never encountered a psychiatric paper detailing this, nor a credible psychologist or psychiatrist who would endorse such a thing…
That is, the ebbs and flows either occur over time or are prompted by the situation.
Okay, this is an agenda…not a credible scientific claim. Now where’s the TON of evidence?
(For example, a large number of straight men legitimately enjoy gay sex in prison, but then never desire it again after they return to an integrated environment.)
Phew…are you comparing sexual orientation with situational same sex rape? I seriously hope not…I think we’re about done. This is embarrassing…for you.
scott ny'er (formerly scott)
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): If ur in a relationship with a guy (but really it applies to anyone and everyone) your other half is either into you or not. It’s not a competition with other blokes. You have him already. He’s yours.
I don’t see how if he is attracted to women, how that differs. He is with you and entirely yours. Logically, women or men, it doesn’t figure in. It’s about you and him. If, he cheats (whether it be with a woman or a man) I believe it’s because something is lacking in your relationship that is between the two of you. The other person has nothing to do with it.
If it’s because he needed to be with a woman versus a guy, then it’s on him. But, one can almost argue maybe the guy wanted a bigger/smaller unit to play with than you had. Or bigger/smaller body. It’s the guy who has the problem and it has nothing to do with the dynamics of bi vs. gay.
That’s how I see it.
Alec
@TANK: Not all same-sex encounters in prison are coercive. Moreover, such encounters take place in other single gender environments (the military, boarding schools, among clergy, etc).
TANK
@Alec:
I guess just most of ’em, then. Prison rape’s a problem, alec. I don’t know if you’re conscious of that…it would seem that you’re playing up all of those consensual prison same sex sexual relationships…LOL! It’s a real problem.
Second, in cases where it isn’t forced, that doesn’t suggest for a moment that sexuality is mutable or fluid or changes…it just suggests that the opportunity to act on one’s actual sexuality has presented itself.
TANK
A lot of people attracted to the clergy do have same sex sexual desires, too. Go figure. And the military? Are you saying that no one in the military’s bisexual or gay and closeted?
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@scott ny’er (formerly scott):
Oh I get that completely…that wasn’t my point.
My point is that we as humans have an inherent need to procreate, some more then others.
If I was BI, I’m not saying you can’t in your hearts or heart believe in your relationship with a dude…but if you can be with a girl and have kids when you decided to settle down??
I’m just being frank. People, we’re not that original or considerate. We’re narcisstic and self involved and we want what we want.
Whatever that ideal may be.
So are you telling me that if you met a guy you really liked and a girl you really liked, and you could see yourself settling down with both…you wouldn’t choose the girl cause you could have kids and stuff?
Do you like girly guys? I guess if you did I could see why it would seem so simple to you..
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Alec:
Men in prison don’t have a choice…it’s sex for sex sakes in the worst circumstances.
It is genetic or part of your make up, whatever word you want to use.
You can’t seriously think people CHOOSE to be gay!
That’s bad…but interesting cause it proves what a lot of right wing nutso’s think…
Hmmm…
Alec
@TANK: Yes, prison rape is a problem. That doesn’t mean all sexual encounters in prison are rapes. There’s a reason a pilot condom program was approved for a prison in CA, and rape isn’t what they had in mind.
So you think that the men who have sex in prison are gay or bisexual, and just “presented” with the opportunity to have sex with another man for the first time?
TANK
I just fear that one day young real gay people will have nowhere left to go, that they’ll never be able to identify themselves as they truly are because closet bisexuals like Alec and Sam will have taken over the word “gay” and will have destroyed all the progress that has been made for real gay people like us.
This is absurd. Is this a genuine concern of yours?
Alec
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): No, I don’t think people “choose” to be gay. Why is it so easy to imagine opportunistic homosexuality but not opportunistic heterosexuality? Both happen.
TANK
Yes, prison rape is a problem. That doesn’t mean all sexual encounters in prison are rapes.
Maybe not the ones that occur late at night when you can’t sleep…in your imagination…that old familiar feeling, huh? HA HA HA HA HA J/K, I acknowledged that.
There’s a reason a pilot condom program was approved for a prison in CA, and rape isn’t what they had in mind.
Right, there are gays and bisexuals in prison. And also, straight men who rape…because rape ultimately is about power and control and humiliation, not sexual orientation.
So you think that the men who have sex in prison are gay or bisexual, and just “presented” with the opportunity to have sex with another man for the first time?
Sure do. Willfully and can get aroused and do it repeatedly? That is, a pattern of behavior? Of course.
TANK
I doubt very much that rape wasn’t what they had in mind, Alec. WHat they had in mind was seroconversion rates, and their desire to curve those. Unless it’s your contention that seroconversion is a lot less likely to occur in unprotected same sex rape than consensual same sex activity? Another…FAIL.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Alec:
Alec I’m not the one saying that at all…I don’t believe in either opportunistic homosexuality or heterosexuality, I believe in Bisexuality.
Dude, don’t make me laugh, you’re encounters are abit too much to still be called opportunistic lol!
You’re BI! Why can’t you accept that? No one is being nasty about it…you’re lucky, you have a wider choice then most do..
🙂
TANK
I don’t it’s fair to say that his choices are “wider” than most. Because bisexuality is described by a range of romantic and sexual feelings. Thus, many bisexuals are incapable of forming romantic commitments to members of the same or opposite sex.
Now what about sexual experimentation? A one time thing…in which case, wasn’t really enjoyed? I think sexuality’s safe from that particular incident.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@TANK:
“So you think that the men who have sex in prison are gay or bisexual, and just “presented” with the opportunity to have sex with another man for the first time?
Sure do. Willfully and can get aroused and do it repeatedly? That is, a pattern of behavior? Of course.”
Nah….it’s just a hole and somewhere to get off. I don’t think many of them are gay and lesbians.
I’ve worked heavily in those areas in term of support when I was getting by at Uni a few years back and with the women, it was a desperation for intimacy-something women never seem to shake in real life anyway..
And with some men, it was too get off.
TANK
Well female sexuality’s not male sexuality. And if you disagree, you have contradicted yourself. Clearly if they’re not bi or gay and are WILLFULLY engaging in repeated acts of same sex sexual congress of some kind that they enjoy…then alec isn’t bi, either. Get it?
I think that they aren’t straight, though perhaps have a preference for women…and out of the “joint” don’t act on their same sex sexual urges because they’re…oh, I dunno…pretty well infected with gender norms.
Alec
@TANK: My point was, I don’t think most rapists were going to be mindful of condom use. Of course HIV was what they had in mind, but what percentage of rapists do you suppose would take the time to plan and prepare by using a condom? I’d suggest that there are some out there, but not a majority. What they had in mind was consensual condom use. Even taking into account the gay population in prison, more than gay and bi men are using the condoms.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@TANK:
“I don’t it’s fair to say that his choices are “wider” than most. Because bisexuality is described by a range of romantic and sexual feelings. Thus, many bisexuals are incapable of forming romantic commitments to members of the same or opposite sex.”
Wooah, is that fair to insinuate that they can’t have romantic relationships or sexual feelings??
I don’t agree at all.
I Just think that they tend to have a preference towards one if their honest with themselves…
TANK
My point was, I don’t think most rapists were going to be mindful of condom use.
Well, if they think they have the chance of getting AIDS they are… I think that they are, especially if they’re rapists of men.
Of course HIV was what they had in mind, but what percentage of rapists do you suppose would take the time to plan and prepare by using a condom?
A lot. It’s not something that just happens. MOst rape is premeditated.
I’d suggest that there are some out there, but not a majority. What they had in mind was consensual condom use.
No, I don’t think that’s what they had in mind given the problem of prison rape and their inability to do anything about it. It’s a tremendous problem, once again… What they had in mind, rather, was seroconversation rates (again), and their desire to stem that…those caused by sexual activity that could be rape.
Even taking into account the gay population in prison, more than gay and bi men are using the condoms.
Begging the question by assuming that straight men willfully engage in same sex sexual activity that they enjoy repeatedly… I think you’re wrong…and that this is just another red herring…like the soft and hard atheism distinction that had no relevance to the conversation in the jesus post.
TANK
Wooah, is that fair to insinuate that they can’t have romantic relationships or sexual feelings??
I don’t agree at all.
? I don’t know where you’re getting this from…
TANK
seroconversation rates? That’s crazy talk…
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@TANK:
No cause Alec isn’t in prison! Is he??
Alec has a greater choice about who to fuck then some dude that’s up for parole in 20 years or who is incanerated for god knows how long..??
I’m just going by what these guys told me, seeing their behaviour and understanding the situation of choice.
The best I can describe it and it isn’t even fair but when I was at boarding school and you had lock up, you couldn’t go out, the food is really bad etc etc and you’re like locked up. It would do ANYTHING to any man..
Like I said, at least with mine it wasn’t prison BUT I’m trying empathise that feeling…
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@TANK:
This..
“Thus, many bisexuals are incapable of forming romantic commitments to members of the same or opposite sex.” Posted: Apr 11, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Alec
@TANK: I think I’m beginning to get a sense of your style:
1. People cannot act outside of their sexual orientation. Conduct is destiny.
2. People who do not believe in God are not atheists. Only people who claim that they know there is no God are atheists.
3. Examples that contradict your talking points are ignored, downplayed or denied.
TANK
No cause Alec isn’t in prison! Is he??
So that means that straight guys who are in prison magically start enjoying and engaging in same sex sexual activity repeatedly? …that’s interesting…and false. I suggest you take your findings to the APA.
Alec has a greater choice about who to fuck then some dude that’s up for parole in 20 years or who is incanerated for god knows how long..??
And? They both have a choice…
I’m just going by what these guys told me, seeing their behaviour and understanding the situation of choice.
Yeah, and self reporting is often inaccurate, ya know? Not too many prisoners are gonna tell you that they’re a fag…or bi (the same to them)…get it?
The best I can describe it and it isn’t even fair but when I was at boarding school and you had lock up, you couldn’t go out, the food is really bad etc etc and you’re like locked up. It would do ANYTHING to any man..
I think this is playing into some kind of sexual fantasy if yours rather than reality… I do know that sexual experimentation at boarding school occurs, it’s just not a parallel to prison sex. That’s not experimentation.
Like I said, at least with mine it wasn’t prison BUT I’m trying empathise that feeling…
yeah…I don’t think that really cuts it…maybe, however, it is a fantasy, and people are very protective of their sexual fantasies; willing to go to great lengths to preserve the possibility of their reality when pressed.
TANK
This..
“Thus, many bisexuals are incapable of forming romantic commitments to members of the same or opposite sex.” Posted: Apr 11, 2009 at 1:53 pm
From which you inferred….
Wooah, is that fair to insinuate that they can’t have romantic relationships or sexual feelings??
I don’t agree at all
DO you see how that doesn’t work?
Alec
@TANK: You clearly stated that “many bisexuals are incapable of forming romantic commitments to members of the same or opposite sex.” Now you’re trying to run away from your stereotyping.
Nice try.
TANK
I think I’m beginning to get a sense of your style:
And yours would be the introduction of decoys that derail the conversation, arguing the truth of absurdities, equivocation and strawmen? That’s just how it seems…to me.
1. People cannot act outside of their sexual orientation. Conduct is destiny.
No…Nothing I wrote is even remotely linked to this.
2. People who do not believe in God are not atheists. Only people who claim that they know there is no God are atheists.
No…nothing I wrote is even remotely linked to this.
3. Examples that contradict your talking points are ignored, downplayed or denied.
No…you haven’t provided any.
TANK
You clearly stated that “many bisexuals are incapable of forming romantic commitments to members of the same or opposite sex.” Now you’re trying to run away from your stereotyping.
Nice try.
Oh my goodnes, you people are really dumb. Did you notice me mention bisexual orientation occurring on a spectrum? The obvious inference from that is that many bisexuals are capable of forming a romantic relationship with only a member of one gender over another…though can have a sexual relationship with a member of the gender they’re incapable of forming a long term romantic relationship with…
Really, you guys aren’t very intelligent. You hafta break it down to baby steps for ya.
Sam
@Joey:
“It creeps me out how you could use a label that is supposed to only be used by men who are EXCLUSIVELY ATTRACTED TO THE SAME SEX”
Joey – Gay is not the word you are looking for. Homosexual is the word that means you are exclusively attracted to the same sex. It is a sexual orientation. Gay and gayness are identities. (You allude to this in one comment, but don’t really seem to “get it.”)
Many men who are homosexual and, by definition, exclusively have sex with other men do not identify as gay. Many men (as this conversation has revealed) who are not exclusively homosexual do identify as gay. This has pretty much worked for the gay community, at least as far as I’ve been a part of it. If you want to get upset about it and impose a narrow, rigid view about who qualifies as “a real gay” and who doesn’t, that’s fine, but I think you’re just going to make yourself miserable (and maybe make some people think you’re really judgmental and uptight). The gay community will keep chugging along anyway.
I don’t really understand why it matters so much to you. You keep talking about some nefarious force trying to make us all bisexual, but I don’t really see it. I mean, the biggest anti-LGBT force out there is the one telling us we should all go to ex-gay camp and become straight. Who are these people who think it’s okay for you to fuck dudes but not fuck them exclusively?
“I just fear that one day young real gay people will have nowhere left to go, that they’ll never be able to identify themselves as they truly are because closet bisexuals like Alec and Sam will have taken over the word “gay” and will have destroyed all the progress that has been made for real gay people like us.”
Ummm…I have news for you. People like Alec and I have been comfortably identifying as gay for decades. We want to be with men and in relationships with them, even if some small part of us is attracted to women and that’s been enough for most people. This whole argument of yours smacks of “purity” policing and the kind of moral tests that fundamentalists like to engage in. If that’s your deal, have fun, but realize that it’s YOU trying to tell US that we’re not “gay enough,” not the other way around. I have no interest in making you fuck women.
“As for your point about “straight guys who’ve had sex with men”, how often do you REALLY think that happens?”
IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME!!! If you think it doesn’t, you need to get out more…
“The fact is that modern scientific research shows that sexuality is immutable and genetic, just like race or gender.”
Please show me the proof for the purely genetic basis of sexual orientation. Because I work for a gay rights org, and if we had that proof, we’d be able to move light years ahead.
BTW, my personal experience has been that my sexuality is NOT mutable. The incidence of how often I’m attracted to men (99%) vs. women (1%) has been the same for as long as I can remember. BUT, I’m not so rigid as to tell other people who have experienced mutability in their sexual attraction that they’re WRONG. I mean, who am I to judge? If that’s what they experienced, then that’s their truth. I don’t see why you need to argue with them about it.
TANK
As I said, joey, they’re very vocal, but NO ONE TAKES THEM SERIOUSLY. Ignore them…memes are memes.
The Gay Numbers
@Mark: Agree 100 percent. A lot of the sex is fluid rhectoric is an outgrowth of political and cultural theorists rather than science or attempting to use any empirical data to determine the truth of the matter.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@TANK:
Stop being cryptic, why doesn’t it work??
This isn’t an argument, we’re discussing here…I didn’t agree with what you said, if you ever bothered to read what I’ve been writing before, the premise was simply that Bisexuality did exist, such as Gays and Straights. I just don’t believe in fluidity..or the thing that we can be what we want to be…
I think only bisexuals can, people who are born attracted to both sexes, something they may not realise until much later in life or before. That’s all. So I think they can ofcourse have romantic relationships that are sound and pure..
Anyways, me think you just came on this thread to argue with Alec because you’ve been doing this all the way through with jesus thread..
You dont enjoy debate but enjoy attacking. I’ll give you that, it’s exhausting and your plan does work..to get people to move out of your way when it comes to forming an opinion that you don’t like.
Good for you.
Alec
@TANK: Gee, I don’t know where I’d get silly ideas like that:
The charitable explanation is that you forgot what you posted.
The Gay Numbers
@Tallskin: It’s not a frenzy. It’s scientific inquiry. There is nothing wrong with science. I am shocked I would have to say that here, but not very much. To me, fundamentalists are fundamentalists. When someone says that science is a ‘frenzy’ that’s a fundamentalist comment. Now, maybe you mean the cultural aspect- but to me the overall question of asking what are the biological mechanisms of our sexuality- is a valid one.
Alec
@Sam: Thank you. Sanity.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@TANK:
No?
“Really, you guys aren’t very intelligent. You hafta break it down to baby steps for ya.”
Oh you break my cold, cold uncaring heart. As long as their is an intellectual genius like yourself to break it down, we can only exist within the realms of your outstanding mind and hope, oh, hope to take away a modicum of your wiseness…oh so wise one.
TANK
@Alec:
Okay, since you wanna go there, we will. You’re toast.
The Gay Numbers
@Alec: We know at this point that sexual orientation is determined biologically. That means some component is genetic,a nd some parts are going to be pre natal and post natal biochemical development. We also do know that there are some environmental influences, but those influences are alsmost certainly related to the affecting the expression of the biochemical pathways.
All of this is to say that mutability here is false. The social construction you have for how you deal w ith what you feel is irrelevant to some degree to the scientific question of whether sexuality is mutable or not. The key issue is whether you can turn off the switch or turn one on. The answer is probably no. The science that’s already there backs that up.
TANK
@Alec:
No, this is confused… Atheism isn’t just the absence of belief in god; it’s the commitment to rationality that is responsible for, in that case, the absence of belief in god…
No, it’s not just the absence of belief in god, alec. It’s not “no belief,” it’s a belief that precludes a belief in god. Get it? It is the commitment to rational methodology that is responsible for, in that case, the absence of a belief in god…
If we want to get literal about this idiocy…”no god” doesn’t mean anything…for an atheist could believe in several gods, then. IT’s not helpful, and doesn’t characterize what atheism is.
That’s true.
SImilarly, omnipotent means “all power” so god can’t be all powerful…even according to tradionalist christianity…for that means that god has all…are you people that stupid? LOL!
that’s true. Literally, omnipotence does mean “all power,” which is meaningless, and is why people understand it to mean all powerful.
TANK
But the fact is, alec, that nowhere is the distinction between hard and soft atheism made because of SPIRITUALITY, which you suggested by basically implying that atheists can have all sorts of unfalsifiable spiritual/religious beliefs. Both hard atheists and soft atheists can’t believe in the spiritual/nonphysical/religious.
In fact, the distinction you introduced between soft and hard atheism had no relevance to the discussion at all…
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Sam:
I agree with what you are saying BUT aren’t you and Alec culturall Gay? And just Bi genetically/physically?
I don’t go as far as Joey at all in saying that you are ruining it for gay people…
The thing is, you are attracted to woman as well, so doesn’t that make you Bi? You both didn’t choose to be attracted but you ARE. But culturally, you and Alec prefer men and identify with Gays or being gay..no?
What I don’t get is that you have all these kids trying to commit suicide because they think they are gay…now do you think it’s because they are 99% gay and 1% straight? Don’t you think they would take that 1% and run with it? Hold on to it?
No, I think they feel 100% gay. They don’t feel like sleeping with women..at all.
Why would people be scared to come out if physically they were inherently sexually fluid and DID like women?
Why go through that crap? Why not keep your head down and wait till college to play about with your kinks?
As someone who works for a coming out org, you can see why Joey as a 17 yearl old is a little confused no?
The Gay Numbers
@scott ny’er (formerly scott): The reality is – and this is unfair, but true- that when you are in a relationship with a bi – guy unless he is extremely healthy emotionally it may be hard. What I mean is that its hard enough to address the pressure to conform without having that pressure say ‘but you do find women attractive?” by cultural pressure- I mean the pressure to conform to being with women over men. I am not saying everyone is like that. Ia m saying emotionally it’s a factor. Not everyone wants to deal with that lingering issue. I am not sure that I would. The one bi guy I dated ended it because he said he liked me, but could never be with a guy. in other words, it was about how he viewed his sex with me versus women. So I don’t know if I would want to deal with that with someone. It’s already hard enough to date and make relationships work.
The Gay Numbers
@Sam: This is the point where language becomes useless. So gay does not mean homosexual? Since when?
TANK
Stop being cryptic, why doesn’t it work??
I’m not being cryptic! Maybe I am to you. There’s a difference between an OR and an AND isn’t there?
Thus, many bisexuals are incapable of forming romantic commitments to members of the same or opposite sex.”
And given what I wrote preceding it,
I don’t it’s fair to say that his choices are “wider” than most. Because bisexuality is described by a range of romantic and sexual feelings
the meaning should have been crystal.
This isn’t an argument, we’re discussing here…I didn’t agree with what you said, if you ever bothered to read what I’ve been writing before, the premise was simply that Bisexuality did exist, such as Gays and Straights. I just don’t believe in fluidity..or the thing that we can be what we want to be…
Neither do I…
I think only bisexuals can,
See, I don’t think bisexuality=fluid sexuality. I think it’s just as fixed as heterosexuality and homosexuality.
people who are born attracted to both sexes, something they may not realise until much later in life or before. That’s all. So I think they can ofcourse have romantic relationships that are sound and pure..
Oy…once again, it’s on a range. SOme guys (and I’m talking about male bisexuality here, not female bisexuality) are mostly straight, prefer women, and can only have meaningful long term romantic relationships with women…though do find sex with men appealing. Some men are the opposite. And yet some are pretty evenly divided…That’s my point. Do you follow?
Anyways, me think you just came on this thread to argue with Alec because you’ve been doing this all the way through with jesus thread..
I’m not arguing with alec. He has no argument.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@TANK:
Hugz!! 🙂
Alec
@TANK: What do you make of this?
@The Gay Numbers: And what do YOU make of this?
That’s the APA talking guys, not me.
TANK
Alec, what do you make of this?
“Mairzy doatz and dozey doatz and little lambsy divey. A kiddle divey, too–wouldn’t you?”
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Alec:
“Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.”
Ohh dangerous territory!
This is prob what the religous nuts think…uncle harry can turn you gay!
This can ONLY happen with Bisexuals, which puts my theory forward, that their are more bisexuals then there are Gays OR Straights…haven’t I said this?
And that their is a minority of actual Gay and Straight people?
Again, I feel this needs to researched further because there is something in my theory about Bisexuality being the greatest sexuality…
Again like I asked Sam…why do all these gay kids try and kill themselves? Why do they still fell gay after going to church school that tells them they are sinners and will go to hell?
What you and this issue is saying is that..drum roll…we are all fluid and people CHOOSE to be Gay…
Sam
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): I can’t speak for Alec, but yes, I identify as gay and NOT bisexual because I want to sleep with, date and have relationships with other men. Even though I have some sexual attraction to women, I do not want to pursue them, nor do I want them to pursue me. I’ve identified as gay for so long that I don’t generally have any opportunities for heterosexual sex, but yes, if a woman who I was attracted to came along and we were both interested, I could perform and enjoy having sex with her. But it’s not what I’m looking for. So why would I call myself “bisexual?” Why would “Zachary Williams?”
I guess I don’t understand what you mean by “sexually fluid.” I thought that meant your orientation changed or you could change it…my experience hasn’t been either of these. I’ve always been attracted to almost all guys with a few women in there too. I’ve also always emotionally wanted to date guys. That’s why I came out at 15…because, even though I’d been dating girls and had sex with a few of them and liked it, I really wanted a boyfriend. It was an urge stronger than the fear of being the only out gay kid at school. So, no, I don’t think a “mostly gay” kid is necessarily going to just stay in the closet. Some might, but I couldn’t. And, yes, I had sex with a few more women after that. But I never wanted to date them.
Yes, I do think that whatever Joey’s experiencing is totally reasonable, especially at seventeen. I, in my early 20’s, said I would never date a bisexual man (by this I meant someone actively dating both men and women) because even though I understood being attracted to both, it weirded me out to think of someone I was dating going on to date a woman. Now, I’m less uptight. If there was a way to say it without sounding condescending, I’d mostly just want to say that he’s overreacting and to calm down. The sky doesn’t fall just because some men who get a few hardons over women are included among the geighs. Take a deep breath and have some faith that it all works out fine with each of us just being who we are.
Except for that not-really-gay bit. I’d yell at him for that no matter what. I’ve spent too much time taking shit, fighting for our rights and being discriminated against as a gay person for anyone to tell me I’m not just because I get a little turned on watching Carrie-Anne Moss kicking ass in her skin-tight rubber suit in The Matrix. I mean, come on. Even straight girls find that shit hot. 😉
Alec
@TANK: Yes, I’ve come to expect nonsense from you. Nevertheless, you know, it is a professional organization with a view that seems to contradict your own. Or how about this from Atheism: An Introduction?
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/intro.html
Definitional issues explored further here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/atheist4.htm
Again, “atheism” simply addresses the god question. Not all atheists are secular humanists, and atheism doesn’t correlate to any particular beliefs about reincarnation, wisdom, etc.
So you are simply flat out wrong. I’ve tried to explain this to you multiple times, but you appear to revel in your ignorance. When facts don’t suit you, you just deny the facts.
Joey
Look everyone- I understand that I may come off as melodramatic, and perhaps even alittle naive and out of touch, but the truth is that I’m just a proud young gay man who is deeply concerned about the direction of the gay community. I have worried about stuff like this more and more, and reading this story about Zach Williams was the “icing on the cake for me”. I felt I had to speak out, and so here I am.
Alec, I may only be 17, but I already know an awful lot about what it means to be gay in this world. Don’t automatically assume that my relative youth makes me inexperienced, because I do have experience, and I’ve done alot of thinking. The fact is, Alec, that unless you can give me a real reason why a true gay man would willingly insert his penis into a woman’s vagina, and on more than one occasion, then you are, without doubt, biologically bisexual. It’s pretty simple.
This notion that you seem to be putting forward that somehow most straight men have had sex with other men is completely insane. Sure, there are cases of “experimentation” once in awhile. but the fact is that 90% (perhaps more) of straight men have never had sexual intercourse with another man. For whatever reason, however, most self-identified “gay men” these days seem to be insecure, and feel the need to fuck some pussy once in awhile. It really is just disturbing and bizarre to me, especially since nobody seems to be able to explain it.
Also Alec, in response to you saying that “we don’t know that sexual orientation is determined genetically”, I would challenge you to find any scientific sources that say that sexuality is mutable and fluid. The only people who claim that sexuality can be changed and that there’s no such thing as “exclusive homosexuality” are the religious right. EVERY SINGLE SCIENTIFIC STUDY as of late has shown that homosexuality is biological and genetic, and not in any way fluid or changeable.
Also Alec, someone’s “ability to physically respond” plays a huge role in determining your sexual orientation. When a man is gay, it means they don’t physically respond to any sexual act that has to do with women. Obviously Alec you’re just in denial about your true self, and it’s time you came out and faced the music. YOU ARE A BISEXUAL MAN. Don’t lie and hide your true self because all it does is creates more difficulty and stigma for the real gay people out there to have to deal with.
In response to your post Alec about “why is it so easy to imagine opportunistic homosexuality but not opportunistic heterosexuality?”, I would say this: Because when you come out as a gay man, the point of it is so that you don’t have to have sex with women anymore! The very reason men come out of the closet is so that they don’t have to pretend to be attracted to the opposite sex anymore, because they really don’t feel attracted to women at all. You, however, by continuing to engage in sex with women, defeat the entire point of coming out and identifying as gay. Really, why did you do it if you still want to fuck pussy? Oh, and one last thing Alec: It is indeed true that people cannot willingly act outside of their sexual orientation. Conduct IS destiny.
If response to what you said John, I’ve never had any feelings of self loathing or self hate whatsoever. I’m just very proud of my sexuality, and the idea that all of a sudden these people are telling me that exclusive homosexuality doesn’t really exist and that gay men shouldn’t be so “up tight” and should try fucking some pussy instead is extremely offensive to me and goes against everything that I stand for and believe in as a proud gay man. I mean, like somebody else on here said (it may have been you, but I’m not sure), what is the point of coming out if you’re just going to continue fucking pussy anyway? It doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.
In reponse to you know, I’m nearly speechless. You work for a gay rights organization and claim to be a proud gay man, yet continue to fuck pussy? REALLY. I just don’t fucking get it! What is this world coming to? Is there even a real gay community left, and if there is, will it still be around in 20 years? I mean what’s the point of fighting for your right to marry a man Sam if you’re just going to turn around and get with gals anyway? It’s just completely mind boggling to me. I mean, I just wonder how many of the men out there who identify as gay are actually not true gay men. I mean, are most gay men attracted to the opposite sex? I’m only 17, and if that’s the case, I fear what I’m going to face in my future. I guess I’m just going to be lonely and alienated, because nobody’s going to feel the same way I feel.
Sam
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): The APA quote Alec used is actually some of the strongest evidence we have that you cannot “CHOOSE” to be gay or straight. That’s what the part you quoted is saying; that even though we can’t conclusively say how much genetics and how much environment contributes to sexual orientation, what we CAN say is that for MOST people, they have no ability to choose who or which gender they are attracted to.
It’s a great statement, actually. One of the best weapons against conversion therapy. And I get what you’re suggesting about Uncle Harry, but anyone who suggests that is completely misinterpreting the actual content of the statement.
But the haters do that no matter what. So what can you do?
TANK
No, I’m not wrong…LOL! You don’t understand. I suggest you read some Hume, or atheists…who know what atheism is. To say that atheism is consistent with spirituality and the occult…supernaturalism…is to talk out of your ass. I don’t care who’s writing it, peasant or pope.
The distinction between weak and strong atheism is not based on SPIRITUALITY, though…get it yet?
And the distinction can be obliterated very easily.
Why don’t you play with this ball…
Alec
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): I think part of the problem is the implicit assumption that the sexual and romantic attraction to women is equal. It isn’t, at least in my case. And I’d be miserable if I had to date women exclusively; conversely, quite happy dating men exclusively, and monogamously.
TANK
By that definition, a christian is an atheist…because a christian is not a muslim…LOL! Do you see how absurd that is?
Alec
@TANK: a) Hume is not the be all end all of atheism, and b) I’m sure there are plenty of people out there running around believing in nonsense like ghosts and cryptozoology and reincarnation who don’t believe in any gods, despite your attempt to deny their existence. One can be an atheist without being a skeptic.
TANK
I don’t think you get it…but back to that ball. Here, just roll on the floor. There, that’s fun, right?
Sam
@The Gay Numbers: For many people of color, it’s been a long time. For lesbians, less long (and some still do identify as gay). Most white gay men can’t fathom it, but for many outside that world, the concept of “gayness” includes not only the idea of homosexuality, but also connotations of whiteness, anti-religiosity, hedonism, male gender and privilege. (Not saying these are CORRECT, just that they are associated with “gayness” by some who practice homosexuality).
So, it depends what “mean” means. 😉 But no, I don’t think gay and homosexual are synonyms, in a strict sense. Though they are certainly closely related terms.
TANK
@Alec:
Yes, there are people out there who believe in the supernatural like ghosts and spirits but no gods. They’re not atheists… Christians aren’t atheists, either. According to you ,though, they are… I don’t think you have a meaningful definition of atheism to work with, as it doesn’t rule out religion or spirituality…or anything relevant.
Sam
@Sam: I can’t believe I just wrote “practice homosexuality.” I better go practice. I hear practice makes perfect. LOL.
Alec
@TANK: Christians aren’t atheists because they believe in a specific god; that they don’t believe in Allah or Zeus or Pele is immaterial. By contrast, the atheist who believes in silly superstitious things like ghosts is still an atheist because he doesn’t believe in any gods. Atheism by definition does not concern itself with anything beyond lack of belief in or denial of the existence of gods.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Alec:
I’ve never said it was equal Alex….
To be fair you’ve had Tank on your back (no pun intended!) but I did say that Bi’s have preferences and lean one way more and that your’s is men. You are culturally gay but again, genetically more of the Bisexual persuasion cause at least you find women attractive!
I understand that you prefer more and feel more spirituality with Gay men and that’s your right.
TANK
@Alec:
According to your own linked to description:
Some atheists believe in the nonexistence of all Gods; others limit their atheism to specific Gods, such as the Christian God, rather than making flat-out denials.
Apparently some atheists are Christian.
Once again, you don’t have a meaningful definition anyone can call themselves an atheist…and anyone can, apparently. Lack of belief in gods could mean that one is just a monotheistic atheist… So you can believe in a specific god, just not gods plural, or gods, just not a specific god.
No, people with religious beliefs aren’t atheists, once again. That includes beliefs in spirits and the supernatural… Do you understand yet?
I see you’ve made some progress with that ball.
scott ny'er (formerly scott)
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): I missed ur point. I get it now.
“So are you telling me that if you met a guy you really liked and a girl you really liked, and you could see yourself settling down with both…you wouldn’t choose the girl cause you could have kids and stuff?”
I think it all depends on the person’s place in their life and what their preferences are. I don’t think there is one true answer. If ur asking me? At this stage in my life, all things being equal, I’d choose the woman. Maybe if I was younger I’d choose the guy or if I didn’t want kids.
And no to girly guys. Ur average joe is fine with me, or maybe a dude with some muscle + scruff.
Sam
@Joey: Breathe. You’re going to be fine. Hang out in any gay bar and you’ll find that 90% of the men feel like you do. I don’t know where you live, but in the gay communities of this country, no one will ever try to get you to have sex with women or denigrate you for being exclusively out for dick. I promise.
And I’m fighting for the right to marry because I want my marriage to my husband to be respected in any state we might travel to. The fact that a few women float my boat doesn’t change that.
Joey
Alec, nobody is suggesting that being bisexual means that you’re attracted to both genders equally. That’s why I don’t understand why it’s so hard for you to come out as bi, because someone can indeed be bi and lean towards one sex MUCH MORE than the other. Being bisexual is when someone is attracted to both genders, even if they are more attracted to one gender than the other. You and Sam, therefore, fit clearly into that category. Oh, and hey, here’s some good evidence for you that sexuality is immutable: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/jun/16/neuroscience.psychology
In response your last post Sam, I really just don’t know what to say. Why do you identify as gay if you’re attracted to women? If just doesn’t make sense whatsoever. What freaks me out is that this is a gay blog and most of the “gay” men that have posted on this story ARE attracted to women. Does that mean that most gay men are infact willing to fuck pussy? The whole thing really just freaks me out. Why is it that you insist on identifying as a gay man/homosexual when that is not who you are? It just does a disservice to me and all the gay youth who are yearning for acceptance so that we don’t ever have to feel pressure to fuck women ever again. Also, if you like fucking women, then why “aren’t you looking for it”? All your experiences Sam, including your strong desire to date men yet still find sex with women enjoyable, indicates that you are biologically bisexual. It’s that simple.
And hey Sam, you said that you couldn’t date a bi guy when you were younger because you were weirded out that maybe after dating you he’d end up dating a woman. THAT’S THE SAME EXACT WAY I FEEL! Talk about hypocrisy. I’m worried that soon enough there won’t be any gay men to date, that they’ll all just opt for the pussy option instead and that I’ll feel alone and lonely because I want a man who just loves men and a man whom I can really identify with in terms of our sexual feelings.
“The sky doesn’t fall just because some men who get a few hardons over women are included among the geighs”. Well Sam, to me it does, because being gay is at the core of who I am, and seeing people threaten my identity like this is disturbing and creepy to me. Things like this Zachary Williams story are becoming more and more common, so I can only imagine what things are going to be like 20 years from now.
I’m sorry Sam, but no matter how much it offends you, u need to face the truth: YOU ARE NOT A GAY MAN. YOU WANT TO FUCK PUSSY. GAY MEN DON’T WANT TO FUCK PUSSY, GAY MEN ARE EXCLUSIVELY ATTRACTED TO OTHER MEN, THAT’S THE MEANING OF THE FUCKING WORD! If you want to fuck pussy, I have no problem whatsoever with it, but don’t call yourself gay at the same time. Why come out and fight for gay rights if you’re not really gay anyway?
Anyway, I’m really tired of posting on here. I wish things were different. I hope the man I end up with is someone who’s exclusively gay and comfortable with who they are, and doesn’t feel the need to put his dick in between bacon strips every once in awhile.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Sam:
“But the haters do that no matter what. So what can you do?”
Explain in a language that makes sense.
That statement was all over the shop and insinuated that it was nurture and nature that makes you gay!? WTF?
That is rude and disrespectful to all the gay kids who get all kinds of abuse and hatred for being gay.
@Sam:
“I’ve identified as gay for so long that I don’t generally have any opportunities for heterosexual sex, but yes, if a woman who I was attracted to came along and we were both interested, I could perform and enjoy having sex with her. But it’s not what I’m looking for. So why would I call myself “bisexual?” Why would “Zachary Williams?””
Because you are both BI genetically BUT are gay culturally.
Look the bottom line is you have a choice…you can if you wanted to badly go with women etc BUT some of us couldn’t even if we tried. So why should we all be called genetically gay when the thought of a woman’s buody makes us feel really…well..not horny at all?
How can we relate?
You’re urge is more towards men but you like women too…
How can you tell a gay kid growing up alone and isolated, “don’t worry, try and find your inner hetero self…it’s in there…you’re not REALLY attracted only to men…you’re just being..erm…dramatic…”?
I mean come on?
But you can tell a BISEXUAL kid that..cause he would understand finding women the least bit attractive or physically…something..
Y’know?
I know you all mean well, but when I came out, if I got some guy whose attracted to both men and women tell me that ‘you never know who you will fall for..that what I’m feeling is confused..that being gay means liking both men and women..’
I’d be really pissed off.
You don’t feel like your life is OVER if you know you can just fuck your best girlfriend until you maybe go to college and want to experiment..
Alec
@Joey: Joey
Boredom. Horniness. No one else is around. The same reasons straight men sometimes stick their dicks in another guy’s mouth or ass.
Then only about 60% of the population is straight, because anywhere from 37% to 46% of the American male population has reacted sexually to another male or had a homosexual experience. That doesn’t seem quite right, does it?
First, genetic is not coterminus with “biological.” Second, something can be immutable without being genetic. Third, I’m not arguing that sexuality is mutable. I think reorientation therapies are horrid.
So the men who come out after being in the closet for decades, having been married, are bisexual? I mean, they did respond sexually to their partners, evidenced by the children, if nothing else. Do you see how absurd what you’re saying is?
This is ridiculous. As I’ve said earlier, I don’t actively seek out sex with women, any more than astraight roommate I fooled around with once actively seeks out men. Sometimes hormones take over and sex happens. This isn’t rocket science. And clearly conduct isn’t destiny; we have many examples of married men coming out of the closet don’t we?
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@scott ny’er (formerly scott):
Well thanks for your honesty.
You see, you can’t compete when you’re a guy can you?
This is why I don’t date guys who are Bi. As much as I find being a free spirit sexy..it’s always ends up with being breaking it off and having fun.
I know myself. I’m jealous..and loyal. Really won’t deal with my guy being into something I could never give him…
Just being honest.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Sam:
What if you met a woman who turned you on mentally and physically as much as your man….
Would you still be with him?
You know you can have kids easily and all that with her…
The Gay Numbers
@Sam: Sam, I am a gay black man. I grew up in a mostly black town. I presently live in a black working class neighborhood that’s mostly straight.
Joey
Scott, if you’d choose the woman, THEN WHY IN THE FUCKING WORLD WOULD YOU IDENTIFY AS GAY???? GAY IS FOR MEN WHO ARE ATTRACTED EXCLUSIVELY TO MEN FUCKHEAD! I’m sorry for being so aggressive and confrontational, but this really does strike a chord with me and makes me extremely concerned and disturbed about the future of the gay community.
As for you Sam, I think 99.9% of people on the street would tell you that homosexual and gay are indeed synonyms. The truth is that they mean the exact same thing. I just thought that when I came out as gay that I would finally belong, that the other gay men I met would have the same experiences and feelings as I do.
Before I came out, I’d be sitting there with my straight male friends acting exclusively straight and watching straight porn and all that kind of shit, and I’d just think to myself, “when am I going to be able to do this kind of stuff but about guys? When am I going to be able to openly be the exclusively gay man that I am? People like you Sam, are stopping that from happening.
You claim you’re gay, but that couldn’t further from the truth. Why is it you insist on making things harder for real gay kids like me? Why is it you insist on perverting the gay community and the pride that I feel? I just don’t understand how someone who identifies as gay could want to have sex with women. It just doesn’t make sense at all. It really doesn’t. And it really troubles me. It troubles me deeply. I hate to get personal, but I feel bad for your husband who has to deal with all of this shit. But hey, maybe he’s a closet bisexual too and feels the same way.
You know, believe it or not everyone, I’m not some weird psychopath who has emotional issues that I need to deal with. I know it may sound like it at times, but I’m honestly just a normal, healthy 17 year old gay teen sitting at home, living a happy, healthy life. I just get really emotional and sad when I hear about this kind of bullshit, because I feel that it threatens me personally.
TANK
Joey, you need to calm down… I don’t know why you care so much. It’s a little weird.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Joey:
“Why come out and fight for gay rights if you’re not really gay anyway?”
Joey don’t make this an exclusive fight.
Any SHOULD fight for gay rights because it is WRONG to be homophobic and not wish equal rights on EVERYONE.
It’s not right to say they shouldn’t fight. They’ve been in relationship with men, so they do understand how it feels to be at least marginalised…
Man, we’re all in this together…straight, gay, bi…
Alec
@Joey: How on Earth does it threaten you? We get it: You could never have sex with a woman. No one cares. Not all gay men are the same.
The Gay Numbers
Sam:
Follow up- the stuff you are referring to has nothing to do with science. The same is true of severl fo the posters here. To me, what many of you are talking about is cultural norms and beliefs. In fact, your comments are even worse. They are basically stuff that black gay men tell to themselves because of their discomfort with being associated with white gay men. This stuff is b/s because it has nothing to do with the basic question being asked or meaning other than attempts to change meaning due to insecurity.
scott ny'er (formerly scott)
@TANK: I’m glad I’m not the only one seeing that. The drammmmmmmmmaaa.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@TANK:
Er, I think he’s explained, time and time again why he cares so much…
Obv his lack of intellectual brilliance to match yours means he’s inferior for caring too much as an out 17 year old..
He siad…
“I just thought that when I came out as gay that I would finally belong, that the other gay men I met would have the same experiences and feelings as I do.”
Explaination?
Knock him down a bit Tank, so he can gro up all twisted and the like..
The Gay Numbers
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): Part of the issue is that you aknowledge Sam and Alec’s existence,b ut their cultural issues prevent them from admitting you exist. So, they are acting in a sense like fundamentalists- which is ironic coming from cultural relativist.
The Gay Numbers
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): Yeah, Joey is passionate, and for a lot of people- especially gay men of a certain age that’s a bad thing. Why? because they are jaded. This is againt he problem with being “too” wordly. It’s fine to know the world, but not be to the point you cease to accept passion.
TANK
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s):
Yes, that it’s a threat to the community because it is destroying the meaningfulness of the terminology. I don’t think it’s a threat, because people who insist that sexual orientation doesn’t exist or is FLUID (that’s the sexuality that does, apparently) aren’t taken seriously, and don’t have research and empirical data to back up their claims. So who cares if a bi guy identifies as gay, like in alec’s case? (I’m kidding…maybe). People don’t have to accept their labeling and explanation for it…and don’t. But for heaven’s sake, let them label themselves as they wish…it doesn’t matter.
Alec
@The Gay Numbers: What? I’ve acknowledged that they (exclusive homosexuals, in thought and behavior) exist. Joey insists on assigning an orientation on me that doesn’t fit.
TANK
@The Gay Numbers:
It’s not passionate, and you’re older than me. It’s misguided. It’s based on a fractured and false understanding of the lgbt “community”…a fucking faerytale.
Joey
“Boredom. Horniness. No one else is around. The same reasons straight men sometimes stick their dicks in another guy’s mouth or ass.”
Alec, are you seriously fucking kidding me? I’m sorry, but I can’t envision most straight men just fucking their guy friends just because there’s no girls around. Maybe in a gay porn movie lol, but in real life, that hardly ever happens. Trust me, I know, I’m in high school lol.
“Then only about 60% of the population is straight, because anywhere from 37% to 46% of the American male population has reacted sexually to another male or had a homosexual experience. That doesn’t seem quite right, does it?”
Where the fuck do you get those numbers? The highest number of straight people who have experimented with the same sex that I think I’ve ever seen in any study was probably around 13%, nothing higher than that. The number is probably MUCH lower among straight men, seeing as straight women seem to be generally more open to same-sex experiences than straight men are for whatever reason.
“First, genetic is not coterminus with “biological.” Second, something can be immutable without being genetic. Third, I’m not arguing that sexuality is mutable. I think reorientation therapies are horrid.”
Are you kidding? You have made the argument on numerous occasions during the course of this conversation that sexuality is immutable. You have stated that several times, and don’t try to back out of it, because you know as well as I do you’ve said it.
“So the men who come out after being in the closet for decades, having been married, are bisexual? I mean, they did respond sexually to their partners, evidenced by the children, if nothing else. Do you see how absurd what you’re saying is?”
That’s different Alec, because those men aren’t having the sex because they want to, they’re doing it because they feel they need to to cover up their true sexuality. Most of the men I’ve talked to who’ve come out of the closet later in their lives (and I’ve talked to many) say that when they’d have sex with women, they’d think of sex with men while they did it because otherwise they couldn’t maintain an erection. That’s how that the children come about, not because the men enjoy the sex they’re having.
“This is ridiculous. As I’ve said earlier, I don’t actively seek out sex with women, any more than astraight roommate I fooled around with once actively seeks out men. Sometimes hormones take over and sex happens. This isn’t rocket science. And clearly conduct isn’t destiny; we have many examples of married men coming out of the closet don’t we?”
Why don’t you actively seek out sex with women if you are indeed attracted to them? It all just doesn’t make sense. Why not just be out and proud for who you are, instead of pretending to be a gay person? Sorry to burst your bubble Alec, but if you’re attracted to women, YOU ARE NOT GAY. It’s as simple as that.
The Gay Numbers
@TANK: He’s 17. Let him feel what he feels. Yes, he’s being emotional,b ut the overall point he’s making is a good one if intense in presentation. I don’t get people like you. What you really mean is that’s not reacting like you would. So fucking what.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Joey:
Look, I get why you’re so pissed…and as a cyber friend to another..believing in some kind of utopian idealistic situation (gay community full of open minded, kind, supporting men who only sleep with men in an honest way)…is not real.
I was like that about the creative industries when I started my own business…I thought I’d meet amazing people who were highly intelligent (genuinely), kind, supportive, hard working and inspirational…
And it really upset me, like this seems to upset you.
Don’t lose your energy and or your ability to care BUT I do think when you get to 18..(can you?? you can in Europe!) but do hang out at some gay hangouts and do some ethnography..
scott ny'er (formerly scott)
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): You can compete, I just think your taking yourself out of the game because things are not always equal and that’s my deal at this point in time.
But I’ll cross you off my list. Boo. 🙁
There goes another dude. You wouldn’t happen to have had some scruff, be 6′, muscular, blue eyes, and dark hair. That would kill me. 😉
scott ny'er (formerly scott)
@The Gay Numbers: There is passion and there is disrespect and rudeness.
scott ny'er (formerly scott)
@TANK: Holla. I agree with this last statement. But over 100 comments too many, I guess it needed to be re-stated because i’m sure you stated this before.
The Gay Numbers
@Alec: When people discuss mutability I tend to focus on hard science:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation
The Gay Numbers
@scott ny’er (formerly scott): Rudeness? Disrepect? You mean like the way you assumed my racial identity? I do not see him being rude. Just probably for the first time really discussing these issues.
The Gay Numbers
Re Passion
by the way, I will take passion over indifference. The later being the norm.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@scott ny’er (formerly scott):
Dude it’s all good! 🙂
I’m sure your the kind of Bi guy that would want to go out with a guy that is pretty cool with your Bi-ness and all that..
Don’t be hard on Joey!
You should know better!
Alec
@Joey:
http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/publications/duberman.html
Moreover there have been surveys that indicate positive responses have dropped as the idea of fixed orientation became more widespread. Now, you can criticize the Kinsey reports for various reasons, but they suggest a high incidence of same-sex activity among American males.
So by your own admission, gay men can maintain an erection when hey have sex with a woman? Those men must be bisexual, if your comment that conduct is destiny is to be believed.
Alec
@The Gay Numbers: You’ll note that nothing there suggests anything other than “we don’t know, but it can’t be changed.” Which is my point.
Joey
Let me begin by saying that this will be my last post here on this topic. I think I’ve made my point sufficiently clear, and clearly none of you (Alec and Sam I mean) are going to listen. Before I do go, however, I feel that I need to say the following:
The reason I care is because being gay is, in my mind, an important part of my identity. Ever since I first realized I was exclusively attracted to men, I have centered my life around the idea that I would one day meet a man who shared the same feelings and experiences I had, who understood me and that he and I could have a real and lasting relationship.
That future, however, that dream of mine, is now in jeoprady. What these individuals like Alec and Sam seem to be doing is trying to redefine sexuality, to try and redefine the meaning of the word “gay” from what it really means. That to me, is disturbing, and what makes me care so much is that they’re apparently not the only ones doing it. More and more, I see men who say that we need to “tear down these barriers” and allow people to be more open, to “try fucking pussy”. I’m sorry, but as a gay man I have no interest whatsoever in the opposite sex. No matter how much you try to alter the meaning of the word gay, the reality will still be that true gay men are only attracted to the same sex. No matter how much you call yourself gay, you’ll always be bi.
You say John that we’re all in this together, but I’m beginning to question whether that’s the case. Clearly people like Alec and Sam don’t believe there’s a gay community, and I guess that’s why this issue, at it’s core, bothers me so much. I AM A PROUD MEMBER OF THE GAY COMMUNITY; My life centers around it. And yet these guys are saying that’s wrong, they’re saying that community doesn’t it. What these are doing is essentially questioning the meaning of my life.
No matter how much you try to convince others Alec, the fact is you’re bi and that’s never going to change. By lying about it, you’re hurting the dignity of the real gay people out there who are just trying to live their lives as they really are: men who are exlusively attracted to other men. I’m not assigning you an orientation Alec; I’m trying to help you understand what your true orientation really is.
I don’t plan on responding in this thread again, but I just want to understand Tank what you mean by “It’s not passionate, and you’re older than me. It’s misguided. It’s based on a fractured and false understanding of the lgbt “community”…a fucking faerytale”. Am I not correct in saying that alot of this shit that is going on, with “gay men” like Zach Williams, Alec, and Sam, is becoming more and more common?
Anyway guys, it’s been an interesting discussion. If any of you really do want to continue this discussion with me, then reply and let me know, and maybe we’ll continue it on facebook or some place. In all honesty though, I’m really tired of this, because clearly Alec, Sam, and all these “gay” guys don’t give a shit what their actions mean for me and the other real gay people out there.
Alec
@Joey: So what it boils down to is, a gay man who has sex with a woman represents some sort of existential threat to you? Despite the fact that no one here is advocating that you have sex with women?
Huh.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@scott ny’er (formerly scott):
Ha, also, if I went out with you…and I fell for you..you’d be like…’sorry babe, I DO love you but damn, I feel the urge to procreate and I want a woman…’
Ah, you’d break my poor heart before we event got on the second date!
But Bi’s make ace friends…really interesting stories to tell of their conquests!
Joey
“No. 257 · Alec
@Joey: So what it boils down to is, a gay man who has sex with a woman represents some sort of existential threat to you? Despite the fact that no one here is advocating that you have sex with women? Huh.”
If a man who identifies as gay willingly has sex with a woman, then yes, it is threatening to me. It’s threatening because I see myself, as a gay person, as part of the larger gay community, and if self-identified gay men are then going off and fucking pussy, then it defeats the entire point of being a community and fighting for equal rights for same-sex couples. Plus, it means that I might never be able to find a man who I love feels the same way I do.
Anyway, that’s my last post.
Sam
Okay. Gotta go. New Hampshire marriage equality to work on. But before I do:
Joey: You seem to have a persecution complex. No one here is trying to get you to fuck women. No one here is trying to get you to date a guy that does. Your claims that Alec and I are destroying the gay community or ruining your life (or that gay men who’ve ever had sex with women are doing the same) give us more power over your life, the lives of others and the community than we have. We are truly not asking you or anyone to live your life in any way other than the way you are living it. If there’s anything I’d like you to see, it’s that you are asking – actually kind of demanding – that Alec and I be other than who we are, and that’s kinda lame.
I can’t blame you for being 17, but I will just say that self-righteousness, rigidity, moralizing and being ultra judgmental are not qualities that age well. And I hope you find the community you seek, completely free of any male who has ever come within 50 feet of a naked vagina.
John from England: Thought we were agreeing on that last point, but it seemed to set you off. If you think that just going in the closet and marrying a woman would ever be an option for me, you haven’t really read what I’ve written here. You also didn’t seem to read what the APA said, or at least not get it, since you think it’s somehow anti-gay rights. This statement has helped win court cases for our side.
The Gay Numbers: Who said “gayness” had anything to do with science (except maybe social science)? I doubt you’d ever find a scientist using the term “gay,” since it’s really identity based. Most use homosexual or “men who have sex with men.”
You suggested that gay and homosexual are synonyms and I was explaining why they are not. If you have problems with with why that’s so, that’s fine. But really, if there are homosexual women and homosexual men who find the term “gay” to not fit them, who are you or I to tell them they’re wrong?
Alec: I’ll meet you on secret bisexual fantasy island. We can dance around talking about fluidity and making the women wonder why we won’t just marry them. FuN TiMeZ!!!1!
The Gay Numbers
@Alec: At this point, I have no idea what you are talking about.
When I am discusing mutability, I am discussing whether there is a biological and/or genetic component to sexual orientation that can not changed merely because one claims a fluid sexual orientation. I am discussing hard science.
I do not believe in fluid sexual orientation because the evidence right now does not support it. That eviden that I use is the scientific evidence rather than the arguments you might find in a social scicence or philosophy course. If you do not dispute that sexual orientation is immutable at this point according to the biological sciences (which to me trumps all social science and cultural relativism), we have no disagreement.
My problem with the social science/philosophy argument in lieu of hard science arguments is that the former tends to always reduce to orthodoxies. Sceince offers ideas that can be tested. Whereas, the othe arguments are frequently on par with religion. Neither proveable or unproveable.
From y our conversations with John, among others, it seems you were disputing this idea of immutbility in favor of sexual orientation being fluid.
The Gay Numbers
@Sam: You seem hung up on parsing language in such a way that no one else does. I am not really interested in that. The important question for people who are just trying to live their lives is tounderstand who others are from a common frame of language reference rather than more and more gradiations which add nothing to themeaning except for you personally. Language is not personal to you. It’s for everyone.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Sam:
“John from England: Thought we were agreeing on that last point, but it seemed to set you off. If you think that just going in the closet and marrying a woman would ever be an option for me, you haven’t really read what I’ve written here. You also didn’t seem to read what the APA said, or at least not get it, since you think it’s somehow anti-gay rights. This statement has helped win court cases for our side.”
Urgh, you see it as going in the closet?? I did get you but I still think we could have better stuff to refer to BUT if you have used that in court cases, then that’s brilliant.
Really good.
I guess you’re really more gay, so much as you identify and it becomes something else..
I’m thinking out loud (and I know you said that already) but you mentioning the closet to go back in..
I get that. Didn’t mean to offence.
Alec
@Sam:
Don’t forget the 8 am meeting to undermine the gay community.
@The Gay Numbers: I don’t think sexual orientation can be changed. But I dispute the idea that it is crucial for purposes of equal protection, which is what the debate over gay rights is really all about. As far as causation, no consensus seems to exist.
scott ny'er (formerly scott)
@The Gay Numbers: where do I speak about your racial identity?
oh and being called a efftard, which is not the first time he was rude… c’mon. And I think saying that rude is actually an understatement. I can only allow some much latitude for a young person. It’s not like he’s 5 and throwing a tantrum.
scott ny'er (formerly scott)
@The Gay Numbers: And even if I did assume your racial identity (which I highly doubt I did) I don’t see how that’s rude or even disrespectful.
Sam
@The Gay Numbers: Perfect. Would that be the gay male “everyone” or the other “everyone?” Which “everyone” is authoritative when disagreements come up about what words like “gay” mean? The “everyone” with more power and privilege?
Silly me, I thought that having more gradations of meaning and nuance in language made our lives richer and our language more capable of explaining complex thought and experience. And that this was the point to having different words mean different things. But if you find that reducing “gay” and “homosexual” to synonyms makes your life easier, let’s do it. It lets us get rid of “lesbian” too, since they’re just “gay women.” Hell, while we’re at it, let’s just make every word a synonym of every other word, and then we can get rid of all the others, just use one word for everything and be happy. I nominate “Floyd.”
Floyd, Floyd Floyd Floyd Floyd, Floyd Floyd, Floyd Floyd Floyd. Floyd Floyd, Floyd Floyd Floyd Floyd Floyd Floyd Floyd.
Floyd!
scott ny'er (formerly scott)
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): Ha. Sadly you give me more credit or not enough. I fall too easily in love and am the one who gets dumped instead.
Sam
@Alec: How could I forget the 8 am? It’s my favorite part of the day! I’ll bring the Starbucks and self-loathing.
(Okay, really it. I’m out.)
scott ny'er (formerly scott)
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): Oh, I’ve given Joey a chance and he went over that line awhile ago. And since I didn’t find him able to be civil, and really he never answered my questions, I stopped reading his posts. I’m sure if I were to read more of his comments that were aimed at me, there would be more attacks and name calling. I just caught that last one.
It’s really not cool.
Joey
I feel the need to respond to one of those last points of yours Sam bit by bit, because it’s full of so many lies and bullshit. First, if you don’t mind me asking: How old are you? I’m just curious.
Second, I just find it incredibly hard to believe that there are many people out there who would dispute the idea that “homosexual” and “gay” are in fact synonyms. I think you’re the first person I’ve ever spoken to in my 17 year life that has said that, and believe me, I’ve met alot of different kinds of people.
The reason I get to pissed about this is because I’ve always had a real sense of pride and community about being gay, and all of a sudden the base on which I’ve built my world is collapsing underneath my feet. I’ve always associated myself with the gay community and the gay identity, but clearly, thanks to guys like you, the gay community and the gay identity don’t line up with me anymore.
It makes me feel alone and confused. What am I supposed to do with my life now? I had planned on becoming a gay rights activist, but is that really a worthy cause anymore? Are there any true gay men left to fight for? I guess that’s what I’m asking myself, and I’m having trouble finding a definitive answer.
Anyway Sam and Alec, do whatever you guys want. I just think it’s sad that you guys have built your lives around a complete falsehood. I appreciate the work you’re doing Sam to create equality for gay couples, but I just don’t see you as a gay man (and I know alot of people would feel the same way).
I mean, wouldn’t you agree that the “gay identity” is based around the concept of a man being attracted to the same sex? I mean, that’s why men come out as gay, isn’t it, to be who they are? If that’s the case, then why do you continue to show an interest in having sex with the opposite sex? It’s completely the opposite of what being gay is about.
Anyway, that’s it. With the rate things are going, our community is going to completely collapse within the next 15-20 years, and real gay men will no longer be accepted. We’ll have a society that is based around bisexuality and heterosexuality, because exclusive homosexuality will be considered “narrow minded” and “passe”.
I know it sounds drastic, but considering what these guys (Alec and Sam) are saying, I have no doubt it’ll be a reality.
Joey
Also Sam, just out of curiousity, what gay organization do you work for?
Also Sam, and Alec let me ask you this: What do you believe distinguishes you and bisexual men? If you’re attracted to both men and women (perhaps not equally, but both nevertheless), what makes you different than them?
Joey
And also Sam, is your husband gay or bi? And if he’s gay, does he know about your sexual past with women, and ongoing interest in straight sex?
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@scott ny’er (formerly scott):
But it’s not personal….
He’s just ranting out…and at least give the benefit of the doubt that we need to discuss something like this?
Anyway, I feel people like Tank more harsh and cruel, then a 17 yold idealist…
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Joey:
“It makes me feel alone and confused. What am I supposed to do with my life now? I had planned on becoming a gay rights activist, but is that really a worthy cause anymore? Are there any true gay men left to fight for? I guess that’s what I’m asking myself, and I’m having trouble finding a definitive answer.”
Look….just focus…read what I said, you can’t believe in some concept of Utopia…
TANK
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s):
Leave me outa this, lightweight.
Mark
@Joey: Don’t despair Joey. There are millions of people in this country and the odds that there are others who share your view are pretty good, regardless of age. False self-identifying “gay men” like Sam, Alec, Zachary Williams, etc. have access to heterosexual privilege that you and I don’t have. And through all their protestations and revelations in their narratives in this comment thread, it is clear that if they had no other choice they’d use that privilege without a second thought.
My husband and I stopped being engaged with the so called “gay community” years ago because it really no longer exists. We however, continue to do our part to advance a positive image of authentic gay men (i.e. 100% exclusively homosexual) in our rural suburban community. Those who get to know us understand that we are men who love men and have absolutely no sexual, emotional, or romantic interest whatsoever in any way in females. It is the most powerful form of “activism” because people get past their misconceptions and prejudices and we don’t add any confusion to the mix.
Fortunately, the public political image for advancing equality for gays and lesbians has been that of same sex couples with not too much unnecessary personal detail. I’m not so sure the vast majority of the public would be as or would have been as supportive to consider equality for gays and lesbians if the image was of false-identifying “gay men” with all their personal details included. It is also fortunate the anti-gay crowd has not been sophisticated in their approach to use the backgrounds of false-identifying “gay men” to advance their goal of continued discrimination.
Honestly, I have to say that reading the comments of false self-identifying “gay men” like Sam, Alec, etc. has been like a fascinating freak show. It grosses you out but you can’t look away. My husband and I couldn’t for a second have individuals like this in our personal lives. It can be bad enough hearing our str8 male friends going on about women their attracted to, but we simply couldn’t tolerate the insulting experience of listening to false-self identifying “gay men” go on about some splattered-spam they get a boner for and would enjoy sticking their dick in. No thank you.
You’ll be fine Joey.
scott ny'er (formerly scott)
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): It may not be personal but it was directed at me. Hit a wall if there are anger issues. Really, it just does a disservice to anything he says once he heads down an insult laden road. As it was, the hysteria and drama was already making intellectual discourse with him difficult.
Joey seems like a smart guy, I think he can rein it in a little, unless other things are coloring his perspective.
He brought up an interesting related topic to this dude who became a dad. You and others brought in interesting viewpoints and for a time, there was a real nice flow to the discussion. But stuff like what he did, insulting me and others, it doesn’t help.
Tank can be harsh and cruel at times but he also at times brought up interesting points. I just found Joey to continue to belabour one point over and over and it was answered. In different ways, several times. At some point, it becomes a big drama and all about him and not the issue. Which I guess is fine. Just don’t start insulting me or others. I bet, if I started insulting him… not only would it be don’t do that, it would be don’t pick on the 17 yr old.
Just my opinion.
Joey
I think you’re completely right on this one Mark. You’ve pinpointed my feelings exactly. At least one other person here understands exactly how I feel.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@TANK:
Blah!
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@scott ny’er (formerly scott):
Tank to me is not ‘harsh and cruel’! I know harsh and cruel not only from my own family-who’d make Tank seem quite but scoiety…
BUT I’m sorry but i want people to be polite and not so rude and aggresive..
To me Joey was just ranting/lashing out…
He doesn’t scare me..because he seems to be loat and care..
But Tank…well..he’d cross the street if I ever got beat up and then say it was all my fault for being weak!
Lol but not thanks. I’ll stick with the idealistic kid who may be too passionate but would at least wan to help me…somehow..
The Gay Numbers
@scott ny’er (formerly scott): Because you assumed wrongly that I am not African-American. We can disagree on ideas and thinking, but don’t be disingenuous. At any rate, this conversation has run it’s course on all fronts. Good luck.
Alec
@Mark: Ha! What heterosexual privilege? An ability to maintain an erection while having sex with a woman?
And this takes the cake:
Oh yeah. Noooooooo one knows gay men who have had sex with women. Perish the thought; they’d only support equality if they were 100% convinced that no gay man could sustain an erection with a woman.
Do you live on planet Earth? You think that is a barrier? How about the hypersexualized urban lifestyle of some gay men? Think that maybe the bathhouses, one night stands, “open” relationships, drug use and STD rates are just a bit more of an issue? Because that’s wht our opponents typically focus on.
Nah, the sex scandals of Sam Adams, James McGreevey, Ted Haggard, Mark Foley and Larry Craig are nothing compared to the betrayal of me, Sam and this gay dad.
The Gay Numbers
@Alec: I am not discussing equal protection just the use of language.
You are fighting too many battles it seems in your word choice. I am just focused on efficient use of words to convey meaning.
In real life people don’t have time for dissertations. They simply want an explaination that accurately approximates reality- whether that’s gay, bisexual or straight.
Language is the point. We can call ourselves whatever we want personally, but if we want others to understand our meaning- then self definition alone ceases to be of value. I could call myself multi-sexual, and it would mean very little without a common language in which we both understand what that means.
I refer you back to the guy whom I dated. He defined “out” in a way that did not include telling his close family and friends. According to his definition, you can be “out” without running down the street waving a rainbow flag about yoru sex life.
This is the problem with loose language. When you become so flexible with it that words cease to have their meaning, then it’s useless. It promotes confusion and a sense of dishonsty, even if the person thinks they are being honest.
scott ny'er (formerly scott)
@The Gay Numbers: Never did that. Show me proof.
Joey
Yes Alec, your attraction to women IS a heterosexual privilege. I think Mark is totally correct in what he said before. Alot of these right-wingers argue that “gay people do have equal rights, because they can still enter into marriage with the opposite sex just like we can”. As stupid an argument as that is, I’ve heard it used on many occasions, so basically the argument they are putting forward, which is backed up by the actions that people like you and Sam have taken, is that we are infact able and willing to have sex with women, and that we should just settle for that option instead.
Oh, and Alec: You have no fucking right to go around criticizing true gay men for engaging in “open relationships” and stuff like that. I’m not endorsing open relationships, but someone in as bizarre, fucked up, and unusual situation as you certainly has no right to talk. I don’t know where you live or who you hang out with, but I know that most gay people would be insulted and appalled by you and your behavior.
As “gay” man having sex with women? LOL. Now that’s an oxymoron if I’ve ever seen one. That’s my final word on this topic.
Alec
@The Gay Numbers: Bingo. You write:
And if I called myself bisexual, I wouldn’t be accurately approximating reality. That implies a much greater openness to relationships with women. Since I’m not really open to it, it would be false and a lie. Misleading.
Calvaria
“By giving credibility to this notion that sexuality is “fluid” and not immutable like race and gender, we are destroying the equality and acceptance that true gay people have achieved over the last 40 years.”
Totally agree with this comment. While I don’t think that anyone should be discriminated against, ever, I do believe that people who identify as “bisexual” should really take a close evaluation of the bigger picture and what is at stake in terms of gay rights. This is especially important when you consider that many bisexual men are married or closeted, and don’t have to face the societal backlash and deprivation of human rights that gay men face everyday around the world.
All I can say is that I hope men identifying as bisexual understand for someone who knows he was born gay, the very inference of choice in the matter of sexuality is insulting. As someone who has (in the past) had sex with many bisexual men, usually married, I can tell you from my experience this has been a pit-stop on the road to gay!
Mark
@Alec: The “take the cake” passage as you so lovingly call it is historical in its reference. Yes, we are damn lucky that such backgrounds of yourself and others did not become front and center advertisements or propaganda. There are plenty of moms and dads in our society who, while they may be lovingly accepting of their gay sons and lesbian daughters, would be even remotely thrilled at even a glimmer of a chance that their son or daughter, if they tried hard enough, or fell into the right “heterosexual opportunity” might just turn and become “normal” again. As absurd as that would be, it would be powerful enough to influence their thinking and as a result their vote(s).
And the scary stereotypical “urban lifestyle/excessive sexual behavior” rhetoric has been successfully framed as what it is–scaremongering.
High profile losers like Craig, Haggard and Foley are salacious indeed but to the average person it is what effects them in their direct personal lives that carries more weight and meaning–sons, daughters, grandchildren, teachers, and so on.
Pragmatist
@Joey:
You wrote: “Are there any true gay men left to fight for?”
What a revealing question, I think. As if nobody else’s human rights are worth defending. Only you and your (perceived) tribe, right?
If you’re as committed to this social cause as you claim to be, why don’t you make it a little less self-serving by extending it to the entire GLBT population?
Pragmatist
@The Gay Numbers: If I recall correctly, your line of argument about the need to preserve the clarity of language was recently the focus of opposition to same-sex marriage.
I believe the argument was, “If the definition of marriage is broadened, it will just keep broadening to include three-ways and multi-species pairings. Then we’ll never know what it means!” Sound familiar?
TANK
Snot a slippery slope argument gay numbers was making. He was talking about the semantic…he was describing what happens when the same sign has two or more separate meanings, used by two speakers who are not talking with each other, but past one another.
Joey
With all due respect “Pragmatist”, why should I fight for “gay men” like Alec and Sam and their right to be married to men if they’re just going to turn around and fuck pussy anyway? It defeats the entire point. That’s what I meant when I said “are there any true gay men left to fight for?”.
Joey
And I’m still very curious about how many gay men actually share Alec and Sam’s feelings. I hope it isn’t many.
TANK
It is joey, it is…it’s all of them…they’re all bi…you can start screaming now…panic…panic is a good response to this bit of information.
The Gay Numbers
@scott ny’er (formerly scott): Not interested in interacting with you at this point. Good luck.
scott ny'er (formerly scott)
@The Gay Numbers: That’s fine. I just find it weird that you level false accusations at someone and not back it up.
That’s like me saying you called me a racist and having proof or not backing it up. No integrity.
scott ny'er (formerly scott)
I meant to say “no” proof.
The Gay Numbers
@Pragmatist: Is your point that definitions change? So what? It’s not a response. That marriage is evolving to fit a necessary changed circumstance and to prevent confusion says nothing about how you personally choose to use the word gay. Marriage is a conversation that society is having. Not just one person alone. Marriage is a word that has legal roots and is understood to be more than one person. What social value is there in someone saying “I am gay”, but what they really mean is “I sleep with men and women?” How does this reduce confusion for the listener? If you are not self centered- the issue should be an obvious one. It doesn’t. My example of the closeted man saying I am not closeted because of how he defines the closet is the most accurate. I suppose this comes down to this question: are you speaking to hear yourself speak or for others to understand you?
The Gay Numbers
@Alec: Bisexuality means the reality of your attraction to both sexes, which is all the word is suppose to mean. If you want to clarify that bisexuality- most would appreciate it. What gay does is to promote confusion since- as I just wrote to pragmatist- are you engaged in speaking to others for yourself, or for their understanding. When peopl hear gay- they understand it to mean a specific thing. You add connotations about relationships and equality.
The Gay Numbers
@TANK: Exactly.
Sam
@Pragmatist: You know what? You hit this right on the head. While I doing some real work, I was also thinking about what it was about Joey that’s pissing me off so much. I mean, he’s just some 17 year old twink whose life experience at this point is pretty much sitting in his room, holding his dick and thinking about the Jonas Brothers. Why should anything he has to say bother me?
And here’s why: he displays the same closed-minded, bigoted attitude as so many of the wealthy, white, urban gay men I’ve had to raise money from over the years. The ones like Barney Frank, who don’t think twice about throwing trans people under the bus. Or the gay men who think we should ignore women’s issues, even though lesbians were the ones who nursed us through the early days of AIDS and have NEVER gotten their due for that. Or the city gays who think that if gays in the middle of the country want rights, they should move. Or the ConservaGays who don’t think that issues of race and class have any place in the LGBT movement, because they’re on the winning end of those issues in society, so fuck the LGBT folk who aren’t.
In his world ONLY the gay men who’ve never had sex with women qualify as “real” gay men worthy of respect and a place in the community and the rest of us should leave. No matter that we’ve been the ones fighting for equality since before he was born. It’s like, thanks for getting us to the point where I can come out in high school, start a GSA, get a job without fear of being fired for my sexual orientation (in most states/companies) and starting us down the road to marriage equality, but that was all before JOEY got here with his definition of what a REAL GAY is, so now anyone who doesn’t fit that definition is DAMAGING THE COMMUNITY and has to go, no matter what contributions they’ve made.
And, when challenged (by you), he completely admits it. If you’re not exactly like him, you don’t deserve rights or protections and he’s not going to fight for you. Not MY definition of an activist, by any stretch of the imagination.
(My favorite part is that he blames me and Alec for the downfall of the “gay community” and says he wouldn’t fight for us because we have some attraction to women – one I haven’t acted on for over a decade – but he defends the right of “true gays” in open relationships to “marry.” Like THAT isn’t the NUMBER ONE argument of our opponents against gay marriage – that gay men, even when married, are gonna fuck around anyway and destroy “the institution of marriage.)
It just all smacks of McCarthy saying that Communists aren’t “true” Americans or Bush saying that those who opposed the war weren’t “true” patriots. Purity Police are ALWAYS endorsing a form of fascism, no matter who they try to police.
Sam
@Mark: You’re right Mark…by coming out as gay, working for gay organizations, calling myself gay and dating men exclusively, I have MASSIVE access to heterosexual privilege. That’s why Lil Wayne and I are BFFs and all the guys at the country club are fine with me being in the locker room. They don’t care that I suck dick and fuck guys regularly, as long as there’s some possibility, some time in the future, that I might have sex with a woman.
Ludicrous to the point of hilarity. Maybe you should try living in the real world.
Sam
@Joey: If you really want to have a real conversation, I’m game. But I’m not going to answer the personal questions you’re asking on a public forum.
If private conversation works for you, click on my name. On the web site that it links to, click “submit your story.” That e-mail address goes right to me, and I can send you my personal contact info from there.
TANK
DON’T DO IT, JOEY! And sam, for all you know, joey could be chris hansen. STEP OFF! I’m surprised that that crank jason isn’t here spewing up about the bisexualist double standard yet.
No seriously, joey….joseph…there are no gay men left anymore…it’s all gone away way…way away way way…way way…way…keep it real. It’s just this nebulous fluidity…very urban post post modern, if you know what I mean…could you tell me?
Mark
Me thinks thou doth protest too much, Mr. Sammy.
Mark
@Pragmatist: Yes the all or nothing method. How’s that gone so far?
Sam
@TANK: Shit. I see your point.
Sam
@Mark: “My husband and I couldn’t for a second have individuals like this in our personal lives.”
Because you are narrow minded bigots. Or just not very close to your gay friends. What group of gays hasn’t had the “who is the one woman you’d fuck” conversation? (Wherein the gays who would never fuck a woman say so, and those who have some small attractions say so, and we all laugh and feel closer in being able to share our true, authentic selves without assholes like you accusing us of being “false-identifying”.)
“It is the most powerful form of “activism” because people get past their misconceptions and prejudices and we don’t add any confusion to the mix.”
That’s super powerful. Has it changed any votes on LGBT legislation in your state legislature? ‘Cause this “false-identifying” gay does that on a weekly basis. But there’s no power there, right?
Also: “confusion” or “reality?” A thought to ponder.
“we simply couldn’t tolerate the insulting experience of listening to false-self identifying “gay men” go on about some splattered-spam they get a boner for and would enjoy sticking their dick in.”
Wow. Splattered-spam. Misogyny: you’re soaking in it.
Sam
@Mark: You’re not even fucking using that right. That phrase is a way of saying “why are you defending yourself against something I haven’t even accused you of?”
I, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to illustrate that your assertion – that a man who calls himself “gay,” is married to another man, and whose public persona is in every way that of a gay man can somehow have access to heterosexual privilege – is absurd on it’s face.
Alec
@Sam: I’m glad that there’s someone else here to post something sensible. Reading through the thread is torture. I’m glad someone else picked up the sexism, which was far from playful.
Cee
Why is this so interesting? I only clicked on it because it had so many responses.
vernonvanderbilt
I take one day off to visit family and this post breaks the 300 comments mark? And for what? A semantic argument? Golly gee whiz.
@Sam: Your post #302 pretty much encapsulates my feelings after wading through the 150 comments that occurred while I was gone. Well done.
@Joey: I know you say you’re not commenting here anymore, but I’ll address you in case you’re still reading.
I definitely understand where you’re coming from. I felt the same way for many years. All I can tell you is that if you continue to hold onto this attitude, you’re only setting yourself up for lots of disappointment in the future. If you’d like to talk to someone who is not in 100% agreement with you (maybe 80-90%?), but is also not interested in attacking you, you can hit me up via email, (queerty name) (at) (site that starts with a “y” and ends in an “ahoo”), or that identity on that particular site’s messenger service if you have it. If not, then good luck with your search for Gaytopia. I honestly hope you find it, even if I doubt you will.
Take care.
@Everyone Else: Well, at least you’re passionate. Kudos to the lot of you. I’d respond to everyone’s points, but I think this thread is a bit played out at this point. I don’t think there’s much new to be said, if anything.
Mark
@Sam: Okay, so I can get this “straight” so to speak:
You came out as GAY
Work for GAY organizations
Call yourself GAY
Work for the GAY every week in your state legislature
…and every now and then get a boner for what you find is a sexually attractive woman.
Got it. You are GAY!
For those of us who do live in the real world, we don’t need to saturate our lives with the GAY to know we are GAY.
And how odd, but the project your working for which is linked to your name operates on the very concept of activism through exposure directly to people in an individual’s life. This type of activism is long-term sustaining. Court battles can be lost, and legislative victories can be reversed.
This whole thread really has been quite fascinating.
No matter what you, Alec, or others like you and who share your views think of me, I would defend your rights and support your rights. It doesn’t mean that we have to be friends and get along to do so.
And sorry, but it is not mysogyny to find women or their body parts either unattractive or repulsive. I fully support women and their right to be equal in every way. It’s not necessary to be neutral or to become aroused by women to respect their rights.
Joey
Sam, let me ask you this: You say you haven’t “acted” on your attraction for women for a decade, but do you, like straight and bi men, “eye” women that you thing are good looking when they walk by? I’m just very curious about how you can consider yourself a gay man when you’re still attracted to women. According to almost every person’s definition of the word gay, it simply doesn’t fit.
Oh, and calling me a mysogynist? Are you fucking insane? I FANATICALLY SUPPORTED HILLARY CLINTON FOR PRESIDENT! LOL! I’m 100% pro-women, probably more than most of the men are here. I see women as equal human beings, not as objects to fuck. I am an avid supporter of women’s rights, and for you to suggest that just because I don’t find pussy attractive makes me anti-women is just insane and out of touch.
You said, Alec, that you don’t call yourself bisexual because it “wouldn’t be accurately approximating reality”. Why not? You’re attracted to both men and women. That is the definition of bisexual. According to the Merriam-Webter dictionary, “bisexuality” is “characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward both sexes”. How does that not fall in line with you?
I have met many bisexual people, and not all of them, as I mentioned before, are equally attracted to both sexes. Some of them don’t even date both sexes, preferring to focus on dating men exclusively or women exclusively because they much prefer one than the other. That pretty much is in line with who you are; you’re a bisexual man who much prefers men over women. It’s that simple.
As for you Sam, you have this insane idea that I’m only willing to fight for gay men, which is totally not true. Whenever I talk to people, I always talk about GLBT rights, not just gay rights, because I do recognize this is a broad community with different kinds of people within it. I just don’t see the point of fighting for people like you who see it fit to lie and distort the meaning of the word “gay”, and make life alot more complicated, lonely, and bizarre for real gay people like me.
I just don’t understand Sam why you have decided to live your life under false pretenses. I understand you haven’t fucked women in a decade and that you exclusively date men, and that’s fine and dandy, but that doesn’t change the fact you’re attracted to women. Like I said, there are many bisexual people who only date members of the same sex, or the opposite sex, depending on which they prefer the most.
And no Sam, I’ve been out of the closet for 3 years now, and not once have I sat down with my gay friends and discussed which “one woman I’d like to fuck”. Doesn’t that defeat the entire fucking point of being gay? I mean, how many times do you hear a bunch of straight male friends sitting around talking about which “one man they’d like to fuck”. It doesn’t happen, and for most gay people, it doesn’t happen either. You’re living in a world that clearly is out of touch with reality, and it’s sad really. Also, I never defend open relationships; I am a strong believer in monogamy, but I was just saying that Alec has no right to criticize open relationships considering the bizarre and fucked up “situation” that he’s in himself, being a self-identified “gay” man who likes to fuck girls.
If you guys identified as bisexual, I’d be 100% ok. I have no problem with bisexuality, in fact I have several very close bisexual friends. I just have a problem with people who pretend to be something they’re not and make it harder for the people who really do fit the definition of “gay” to gain acceptance and live our lives the way we see fit. The reason the word “gay” exists in it’s current form is that men who are exclusively attracted to men can distinguish themselves from straight and bi people. The term that people who are attracted to both sexes should be using is “bi”.
As for you Sam, I’ll check out your contact info, and perhaps we could continue this conversation further. I’m just very, very concerned about the future of the gay movement, and I’d love to hear you tell me once again that you could give a shit about the real gay people of the future, that you think it’s ok for you and Alec to be selfish.
Pragmatist
@Joey: You wrote: “I mean, how many times do you hear a bunch of straight male friends sitting around talking about which ‘one man they’d like to fuck.'”
Actually, that’s not true. Quite a few straight guys will sit around and probe each other about who they’d “go gay for.” I won’t say that most straight guys do this, but quite a few will. It turns out that quite a few “straight” men have the occasional homoerotic encounter, too.
Now, if you want to contend that anyone who’d even consider the prospect of same-sex play are bisexual, I’m fine with that. This discussion became dramatically less interesting once it became clear that it was “my definition of X vs. your definition of X.” I’d probably classify a 99.9% gay guy as bisexual, but that’s only because I have a very expansive definition of what constitutes bisexuality, and I tend to believe that most people are capable of some degree of attraction to either sex. Whether one wants to classify that kind of potential as “bisexuality” or “homo/heterosexuality with an exception” is a rather mundane exercise in linguistics.
Same goes for the argument about fluidity. I’ve determined, after reading all of this back-and-forth, that the fluidity argument is pure semantics as well. I don’t think anyone’s really disputing the underlying reality, which is that some people’s attraction to particular sexes waxes or wanes over time. All we’re really arguing about is whether the person switched categories (from being “heterosexual” to “bisexual,” for example) or whether the person was “bisexual all along” and merely experienced different facets of it at different times.
Ultimately, I don’t care about the nomenclature. Let individuals live however it pleases them, and let them determine what they want to call themselves, if anything.
By the way, I’m a bit amused at the naivete of a boy at the tender age of 17 who claims to know with mathematical certainty that he will never have the slightest attraction to a woman. The future notoriously defies prediction. For all you know, 15 years from know you’ll find yourself drawn to some blonde bombshell. (Hopefully, by that point, you’ll have developed a level head that would keep you from experiencing some needless crisis of identity over it.)
Anthony in Nashville
300+ comments? Damn! This thread has blown up even more than some of the race-based stories. Looks like this topic has touched a lot of nerves.
Thanks to everyone for staying on point throughout the entire thing.
Joey
“By the way, I’m a bit amused at the naivete of a boy at the tender age of 17 who claims to know with mathematical certainty that he will never have the slightest attraction to a woman. The future notoriously defies prediction. For all you know, 15 years from know you’ll find yourself drawn to some blonde bombshell. (Hopefully, by that point, you’ll have developed a level head that would keep you from experiencing some needless crisis of identity over it.”
Are you bisexual “Pragmatist”, or gay? Or how do you identify yourself? All I can say is that I think it’s inappropriate and offensive for you to question my sexuality. I came out 3 years ago when I was 14 because I knew, without any doubt, that I was exclusively attracted to men. NOT ONCE, ever, have I thought “I’d like to fuck that girl’s pussy”, despite the fact that I’ve known many pretty women. Just because you are confused about your sexuality doesn’t mean I am.
What you don’t seem to understand “Pragmatist” is that I COMPLETELY disagree with your notion that sexuality changes and is fluid. I think sexuality, just like race and gender, is completely solid and immutable, and cannot change during the course of a person’s lifetime. Sure, someone who may have thought they were exclusively straight/gay before may discover later in their life that they’re actually attracted to both, but I think that’s just because they were bisexual all along and didn’t realize it.
And hey, wouldn’t be something to have a identity crisis over if you discovered that the sexuality you’ve always defined yourself by doesn’t actually fit with you? I think that’s probably why Alec and Sam are in such denial about being bi, because I’m finally telling them the truth about who they really are and can’t accept it. Sexuality, just like race and gender, are important components of somebody’s life, and if all of a sudden something changes that causes them to question that part of their identity, then of course it’s a crisis.
“Actually, that’s not true. Quite a few straight guys will sit around and probe each other about who they’d “go gay for.” I won’t say that most straight guys do this, but quite a few will. It turns out that quite a few “straight” men have the occasional homoerotic encounter, too.”
Since when? During my time in the closet, I not once ever heard any of my straight friends talk about who “they’d go gay for”, because most of them were secure in their sexuality and exclusively heterosexual. It seems, however, more and more, that gay men are becoming more and more pressured by individuals like Alec and Sam into being “more open” and more “interested in fucking pussy”, because they say that it’s not normal for gay men to be exclusively homosexual.
Anthony in Nashville
@Sam:
Your points about purists deciding what “real” identity is are valid. Gains for minority groups are usually won with help from people who don’t fit whatever narrow definition people want to use.
I’m not sure your point about employment non discrimination on the basis of orientation in “most” states is valid. I thought that was true for maybe 25 percent of the country, and that’s why people are hoping that ENDA gets passed.
Sam
@Anthony in Nashville: Depends on how you count. I mis-wrote when I said “most”: it’s actually 20 states (40%). It’s when you count by population instead of number of states that it becomes a majority. Just based on state laws, 51.8% of Americans are protected (according to the Task Force). That number becomes higher when you add people protected by local ordinance (e.g. Arizona has no law, but Phoenix and Tucson both do). And higher than that when you include companies with protections (85% of Fortune 500 companies, according to HRC).
Of course, this was aimed at Joey, a gay man. If you are talking about transgender protections, the numbers are much less encouraging. Another big reason to pass a trans-inclusive ENDA at the federal level.
Sam
@Joey:
“It seems, however, more and more, that gay men are becoming more and more pressured by individuals like Alec and Sam into being “more open” and more “interested in fucking pussy”, because they say that it’s not normal for gay men to be exclusively homosexual.” (emphasis added)
I. Never. Said. That. It is 100% PERFECTLY normal for gay men to be exclusively homosexual. It is also normal for some gay men to have some small sexual attraction to women and not identify as “bi” because their identity and overall orientation (which includes not only sexual attraction, but physical and emotional components as well) is such that they would never have a relationship with a woman. You’re the one saying which gay men are “normal” or “real” and which aren’t. Not me.
“Oh, and calling me a mysogynist? Are you fucking insane?”
I believe I said this to Mark and to describe certain gay men that your “real gay” position reminds me of. I didn’t call you, personally, a misogynist.
“As for you Sam, you have this insane idea that I’m only willing to fight for gay men, which is totally not true…I just don’t see the point of fighting for people like you who see it fit to lie and distort the meaning of the word “gay”…”
My point, exactly. Only willing to fight for the “real” gay men. The ones like you.
Also: not THE meaning of the word “gay,” YOUR meaning of the word “gay.” I have a feeling if you described my life to the vast majority of gay men, even your subset of “real” gay men, they would call me a gay man. My friends, family and others who know me would laugh their asses off at your insistence that I’m “bisexual” not “a real gay.”
“I think that’s probably why Alec and Sam are in such denial about being bi, because I’m finally telling them the truth about who they really are…”
Wow. Just…just wow.
[If you don’t get it Joey, just ponder for a moment the arrogance required for you to say that you know who someone “really” is better than they do. Then add that the people you’re saying this about are two guys you’ve only interacted with a few times in the comments section of a blog and who (at least in my case) have been out as gay since before you were born.]
Sam
I was gonna leave this one alone, but my momma raised me to be a feminist…
@Mark:
“And sorry, but it is not mysogyny to find women or their body parts either unattractive or repulsive.”
True. But it is misogynistic to denigrate women’s bodies or reduce them as people to nothing more than their genitalia. So, yeah, calling a woman “some splattered-spam” is highly misogynistic.
Joey
You did say that Sam. You said that “gay” does not mean exclusively attracted to men, which, by almost anyone’s definition, is the case. I don’t know what planet you’re living on, but from where I come from, someone is gay when they are attracted only to the same sex. Someone who is attracted to both sexes is bisexual, EVEN if they’re only attracted to one sex emotionally. Just because you don’t find women emotionally Sam doesn’t make you gay; Like I’ve said A MILLION TIMES on here already, there are many different kinds of bisexual people, some of which, despite being attracted sexually to both sexes, only date one sex (like you).
“It is also normal for some gay men to have some small sexual attraction to women”. Well Sam, that’s news to me, and most likely would be news to most gay people in this country and around the world. I’m not the one who made up the definition of “gay” as men who are exclusively attracted to men; I mean, I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone say that gay is a term that should be used by “men who are attracted to men AND women”; The word for that is BISEXUAL.
And by the way Sam, YOU DID direct the whole misogynist accusation towards me, because you said the mentality I hold is misogynist. You seem to have this sick, twisted, fucked up idea that gay men are misogynist if they’re exclusively attracted to men, and that the way to “prove” your “support” towards women is by fucking them. I know you haven’t said that explicitly, but that is, essentially, what you’ve been arguing.
“I have a feeling if you described my life to the vast majority of gay men, even your subset of “real” gay men, they would call me a gay man. My friends, family and others who know me would laugh their asses off at your insistence that I’m “bisexual” not “a real gay.” But why? I mean really, the definition of “gay” that is widely embraced and accepted worldwide is “exclusively attracted to the same sex”. I know tons and tons of people and have discussed “gayness” with them, and not one thinks “gay” means being attracted to women.
I’m fully aware Sam that I don’t know you; I’m not being arrogant whatsoever, I’m just being rational and realistic. If a man is attracted primarily to one sex but is still attracted alittle to the other sex, that man is STILL BISEXUAL. I just don’t understand how you could think of yourself as gay when you would stick ur cock in a woman’s pussy; Why do you revolve your world around gay rights and homosexuality when it doesn’t actually fit who you are? How could you consider yourself gay when you look at women’s tits and ass as they walk by? It’s just completely contradictory and wrong.
Really, why don’t you just go fuck some pussy and stop lying to yourself and others. I’ve had enough of this bullshit.
Sam
@Joey: I can’t continue a conversation if you’re going to keep creating things I never said and then argue with them.
“And by the way Sam, YOU DID direct the whole misogynist accusation towards me, because you said the mentality I hold is misogynist.”
I didn’t say this, nor do I believe it. I DID say that your bigotry reminded me of some other gay men. Some (not all) of those men are bigoted against women. I never said you were.
“You seem to have this sick, twisted, fucked up idea that gay men are misogynist if they’re exclusively attracted to men, and that the way to “prove” your “support” towards women is by fucking them.”
I didn’t say this, nor do I believe it.
“How could you consider yourself gay when you look at women’s tits and ass as they walk by?”
I never said I did this, nor do I do this.
“You said that “gay” does not mean exclusively attracted to men”
This is a gross oversimplification of what I said. I said that men can identify as gay even if they have some small attraction to women. You say they can’t, even if that attraction is 0.00000000000000001% of their sexuality. We disagree.
“It seems, however, more and more, that gay men are becoming more and more pressured by individuals like Alec and Sam into being “more open” and more “interested in fucking pussy”, because they say that it’s not normal for gay men to be exclusively homosexual.” (emphasis added)
AGAIN: I. Never. Said. This. Show me where I said that it’s not normal for a gay man to be exclusively homosexual. No, show me. Show me, Joey. Show me. You can’t because I NEVER SAID IT. And I have never suggested that ANY gay man “fuck pussy.” I do think many, including you, need to be more openMINDED. They don’t need to have sex with women.
“I’m not being arrogant whatsoever”
I DID say that you are and stand by it. It’s not even my opinion. It’s just a fact. You telling me that you know who I am better than I do when you don’t even know me is the height of arrogance.
“‘It is also normal for some gay men to have some small sexual attraction to women’. Well Sam, that’s news to me, and most likely would be news to most gay people in this country and around the world.”
Here’s an experiment for you: go to a gay bar. Start asking men if they are gay. The ones who say “yes,” ask if they’ve ever felt sexual attraction towards a woman. I think you’ll find that your “definition” of “gay” doesn’t quite fit the community.
And feel free to say that those men aren’t “real gays” and are “deluding” themselves. It’s just more arrogance. It’s your right to be arrogant, but see how far it gets you in the real world.
Mark
@Sam: Interesting. There are two women in my life, one who is married to a man and one who dates men (I suppose that means they’re straight and heterosexual). They both find the male genitalia to be hideous and disgusting. I have spent time with these same very bright, smart, and successful women talking and laughing about the crude names we can come up with about each others private parts. They know what I think about the female body and I know what they think about men’s dicks. We don’t think any less of each other. The married woman in my life still loves her husband very much, although I suspect that her husband does not receive the joy of the blow job (I’ve never asked because I’m not interested in knowing but it does make logical sense). I could only imagine seeing your head explode if you had ever heard us talk. LOL
Oh and by the way, feminism isn’t the only way in life to respecting and appreciating women. I don’t know why but feminist males always remind me of annoying teenage girls. Like fingernails on a chalkboard.
Also, let me disabuse you of any notion that I am some privileged urban-living white male: I am in fact a Mexican-American, raised by a single-mother with the help of a very poor but loving and extended family, one where the women spent much time with me helping me learn many things, my family has never been wealthy and worked hard for what they had. In elementary school I used to let little girls get away with hitting me until my mother had enough of that shit and flat out told me to hit back if a girl ever hits me again (Oooh, I can only imagine what you must think of my mother!). I live in a rural suburban community. I come from a labor union family. I have been with my husband for going on 24 years. We’re not republicans and we’re not democrats. I started out in Head-Start and worked very hard to get my Master’s degree. And yet I hold strongly to the views that I have expressed here in this comment thread, go figure.
It is amazing, but there is a wealth of researchable information in this comment thread.
Again, I say to all this has been quite fascinating indeed!
Chitown Kev
Wow 323 hits!
Tried pussy once. Couldn’t get it up. End of story for me.
It hasn’t stopped women from trying it though.
Hey to each his own, who am I to put a label on anybody?
This makes post #324 or #325. I just wonder what the record for posts on a Queerty thread is. Carry on girls!
Mark
@Sam: A quick follow-up to avoid misunderstanding– the two women I speak of at the beginning of my previous comment, are not in fact, the only women in my life.
zachary Williams
Well, after reading all of these comments on this site, and all of the ones left on Butt… it’s been extremely interesting to see what type of dialogue or conversations/discussions were brought forth from me simply sharing part of my story. I have to say, that I was shocked by some of them, and encouraged by others, and glad that my story was helpful to one person who finds himself in a similar situation at this time.
On another level, I was upset by some of the hateful things people wrote, but also realize that each person is writing into this motivated by their personal issues etc.
I purposely didn’t include every little detail of my story for reasons of privacy, for my son, and I’m not going to go into them here either. I don’t feel that I have any obligation to share them with strangers. The fact that people would be so hung up on the sexual act that resulted in my son, and immediately move to judge me in such extreme ways makes me believe that it would be pointless in any online forum to attempt to give clarity. From what I’ve mostly read here and some of what I’ve read on Butt, I do feel that some of you have a dangerously closed minded and judgmental attitude and are filled with venom. I MEAN WITHOUT KNOWING ME, WITHOUT KNOWING ANYTHING OTHER THAN WHAT IS IN MY STORY YOU IMMEDIATELY JUDGE me as a false gay man, a Bi-sexual-someone that has heterosexual privilege, IN addition to a person giving the anti-gay movement ammunition… And did someone say that I made Harvey Milk roll in his grave!
I don’t know exactly why I even chose to leave a comment at all, as I don’t feel threatened by anything you wrote, nor does it make me question my choices or life.
@ Joey, I admire your seeming dedication to the so called gay community and though I disagree with some of the things you’ve written, and the way that you put your opinions forth in the context of the language you use. I think that you shouldn’t attack people you don’t know! I also, find that people can get answers to their questions better when they don’t seemingly attack those that they don’t know.
I’ve been gay as long as I remember, and specifically realized it by the first grade. I’ve never had attraction to women at all in a sexual way. It just so happens that through a very unplanned, unintended situation that I was able to conceive a child with a friend. I find it ridiculous that this situation immediately makes me a bisexual, when I would never in any circumstance allow myself to be put in sexual situation with a woman again in my life. I can’t undo what happened, and that is life… accidents happen, and this accident has changed my life by making me a father, and I am happy to be one. I can’t say that I’m happy with the way that it came about! And its definitely been hard to live with, and adjust to. But I’ve embraced it, and my role as a father and haven’t looked back or dwelt on how it came about. It is amazing that some of you on here think that I have heterosexual privilege! I’m a gay father in an odd situation, I’ve don’t have straight people rights just like you! I would love to be able to have the right to marry my boyfriend in the State of New York, and that he would have rights as a step parent.
In closing, I find it disgusting how without knowing the story fully or without knowing a person you would throw them under the bus! In addition, to the out lash against bisexuals on here as well, and lastly I find it derogatory that you would refer to it as fucking “pussy”, if you care so much about women’s rights and such how could some of you feel it okay to talk about woman in that way! To me that comment sounded just like some a straight man!
I work for a New York City political candidate that is a lesbian, and I fully support the rights of gay, and bisexual and transgendered people—I don’t believe that just gay men or lesbian women are the ones entitled to equal rights but ALL people should have equal rights whether or not they fit into a labeled box (GAY) (STRAIGHT) (BI) or (TRANS)! As far as labels are concerned I do believe in them to some extent I suppose, I label myself as gay, because I have always believed that to mean that as I am solely attracted to the same sex, but I’m not going to go around feeling entitled to judge other gay friends of mine that say they may have sex with a woman, thus meaning that hmm maybe their bi maybe their gay! I don’t care its not for me to judge! The reason I identify as gay is because I was born this way, its not some choice that I believe I can jump back and forth on…
Hopefully Joey in twenty years people will be more accepting. I hope that none of this will be an issue, I look forward to that day, and until then I will keep living my gay life and raising my son to hopefully be an accepting loving person that will embrace all people. I can already see that in him and am encouraged. The world needs more love and understanding, less hate and finger wagging!
Mark
@zachary Williams: Yes, this whole conversation wouldn’t even be happening if we all enjoyed the same rights and privileges. The complexities go far beyond just live and let live.
Please keep in mind Zachary, the Constitution of the United States doesn’t protect us from views that we find offensive, that’s one of the great things about living in this country.
Good luck to you. Single-parenting is a tough path but not a dishonorable one.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
Ooops..
:/
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@zachary Williams:
For what it’s worth, wasn’t being personal…and I think your kid is cute! I did say that before I participated in the Bisexual vs Gay onslaught….
🙂
scott ny'er (formerly scott)
@zachary Williams: Bravo. Well said. And good luck to you and your family. That’s a great pic of you and your kid, if that is you guys (privacy issues and all).
You really didn’t have to say anything but it’s great that you did.
Tony
“I’m 40 and agree with 17 year old Joey. If you identify as gay why in the world are you sleeping with women?”
Because you are GAY and in the CLOSET.
The Gay Numbers
@zachary Williams: What rights are being denied you by someong disagreeing with you? Are we implementing something into law by doing so?
The Gay Numbers
@zachary Williams: Let me just add- I am now feeling the sense of manipulation here. We are discussing language, but you shift to rights being denied- why exactly are you doing that?
Pragmatist
@Joey: You wrote: “Are you bisexual “Pragmatist”, or gay? Or how do you identify yourself? All I can say is that I think it’s inappropriate and offensive for you to question my sexuality. I came out 3 years ago when I was 14 because I knew, without any doubt, that I was exclusively attracted to men.”
I’m bisexual. I have a significant degree of attraction to both, so for me, I don’t think it would make sense to call myself anything else.
As for you, I wasn’t “questioning” your sexuality. I was stating a fact — at 17, you cannot know how you will feel at 34. That’s a fact of life. Therefore, according to your understanding of sexuality, you can’t be certain if you’re gay, or a bisexual who just hasn’t discovered his bisexuality yet.
You also wrote: “NOT ONCE, ever, have I thought “I’d like to fuck that girl’s pussy”, despite the fact that I’ve known many pretty women. Just because you are confused about your sexuality doesn’t mean I am.”
But that doesn’t mean you’ll NEVER think that, does it? For example, if you were the kind of “bisexual” who was only interested in 1 out of every 28,000,000 women, then it’s likely that you wouldn’t have had a reason to be attracted to one.
By the way, there’s no need for lame insults. I’m not “confused” about my sexuality. I’m very certain of it — I am a bisexual with a high degree of fluidity, meaning that I like both sexes but my level of attraction to each varies significantly over time. Fact.
You also wrote: “What you don’t seem to understand “Pragmatist” is that I COMPLETELY disagree with your notion that sexuality changes and is fluid.”
Well, then, I’m here to deliver the account of a living, breathing person whose experience breaks your theory. My sexuality is fluid. I used to be 100% interested in women only. Then, one day, I started liking guys too. Since then, my level of interest in men and women has varied significantly (over the course of a few months at a time). I know other people who have the EXACT same experience. (Moreover, documented cases of “situational homosexuality” suggest that changes are quite common.) I don’t care how you like to label this phenomenon, but you can’t credibly tell other people they aren’t experiencing it. It’s silly. It would be like my telling you that you don’t really like men (at present) — what would be my basis for that claim?
You also wrote: “Sexuality, just like race and gender, are important components of somebody’s life, and if all of a sudden something changes that causes them to question that part of their identity, then of course it’s a crisis.”
That’s FAR from a given. My racial classification is not very important to me, for example. I recently discovered that my background is completely different from what I had understood it to be (based on some genealogical research). Interesting to know, but good God, it’s not a reason for an identity crisis. My identity is that I’m me; I don’t identify with a particular profession or political label or clique or sexual orientation to such an extent that it’d rock my world to change any of those things.
Finally, you wrote: “Since when? During my time in the closet, I not once ever heard any of my straight friends talk about who “they’d go gay for”…”
Ah. Well, then, just goes to show you that at 17, your life experience is limited. Cause there are plenty of straight guys who have conversations like that, and I’ve met them.
Joey
Let me begin by replying to what Sam said, and then I’ll reply to Zachary.
Sam, you said that you don’t look at women in a sexual way when you see them walking down the street. You also have said, however, that you find certain women attractive. How do those two work together? Obviously if you’re attracted to women and you see a woman on the street you find attractive, you’re going to look at her. You also said before that you “enjoyed” watching that girl in the Matrix because you thought she was “hot”.
You said Sam that you never have claimed that it’s “not normal” for gay men to be exclusively attracted to men, but isn’t that the whole premise of your argument? You said that if I were to go into a gay bar and talk to the men who identified as gay who were in there, I’d find that most of them were infact attracted to women. What you’re saying, essentially, is that it’s not normal for gay men to be exclusively attracted to men because most of them are attracted to women! Where do you really stand?
This whole “sexual ambiguity” thing just really freaks me out. By attempting to revolutionize the meaning of homosexuality, you are giving ammo to the radical right and giving strength to their claim that sexuality is fluid and can be changed. I know I’ve said this a million times already, but I feel like I need to drive home the point. I’m deeply afraid of what this all means for the gay community, and I feel I need to stand up for my principles, the same principles that Harvey Milk once stood for.
As for you Zachary, I feel compelled to compliment you for your eloquence and elegance in the way you write. You clearly are an intelligent individual, and I’m sorry if you took everything I’ve said personally. I just feel extremely passionate about this issue, and see stories like this as a threat to the values I hold dear. I know that may be hard for you to understand, but I’m not going to lie and say this story doesn’t bother me when it most definitely does.
I hardly know anything about you Zach. I know that, and I haven’t tried to claim otherwise. But the notion that has been advanced by some individuals here, and seemingly by you as well, that it’s “normal” for gay men to have sex with women is something that I take issue with and something I feel the need to fight and refute.
I respect your privacy, and I won’t ask you to reveal the full background behind your story if that’s not what you want to do, but the details from what you wrote in your story seem to suggest that you willingly engaged in sexual intercourse with your female best friend (unless you were drunk or raped lol), which, by most people’s definition, would be considered a heterosexual act.
Not only did you have sex with her, but you clearly were able to maintain an erection and actually was brought to orgasm with her during the process. Even if you were drunk, doesn’t being drunk make it even harder to achieve an orgasm? I just find it very bizarre that a man who claims to be 100% gay as you do would engage in sex with a woman and in fact go all the way with her.
I thought it was interesting that you said that you’ve never had an attraction to a woman “in a sexual way”. What this seems to indicate is that you were attracted to your best friend emotionally, which is all fine and dandy, except for the fact that that WOULD make you bisexual. Bisexual people aren’t neccessarily attracted to both sexes both physically AND emotionally; sometimes they’re only attracted to one gender in a certain way. That seems to be the case here.
I’m not AT ALL attacking you for having a child. I intend to have children myself one day (through adoption or in vitro of course lol). I support you and your son 100%, but I do take issue with your assertion that you are 100% homosexual. I’m just sick of this heterosexist, hetero-focused society in which men are constantly pushed upon to have sex with women as though it’s the only norm. I know you don’t feel that you were “pushed”, or at least that’s not what you’ve said, but I really do feel that way.
I don’t want to meet the love of my life, a man who claims to be exlusively gay, and then walk in the door one day from work and see him having sex with a woman. I guess it’s because I’m very secure in my sexuality and proud to be gay, and I want my partner to be a man who feels the same way and feels proud to enjoy sex with other men exclusively. I guess your story just poses a threat to my concept of the world and my ideal future, and that’s why I feel so angry and afraid.
You’re a good person. You’re intelligent, eloquent, and gentle in manner. But I can’t help but express my true feelings about this, my feelings of intense fear, anger, and frustration. As a gay man, I can’t stay silent while I see the gay community, as I know it, demolished and redefined. It’s time for real gay men to take a stand.
TANK
Pragmatist seems to be really playing up and exaggerrating that it’s common for one’s sexual orientation to change with age. It’s not by a long shot. And further, I’d say that in cases that just indicates acted on bisexuality which was always one’s true sexual orientation. Don’t wanna rule it out, though, as stranger things have happened…look at the mysterious case of phineas gage. But it’s not at all common in male sexual orientation.
Further, he’s doing a lot of projecting of his own sexuality on the sexuality of others… That’s his right and prerogative, though not ours to believe it…
And mark, I really have just started reading peepee vagina in your posts…it’s kinda…ew. And Joe joe, you’ll come around. You’re young yet and don’t get the score.
Joey
Also Chitown Kev: What do you mean by “hasn’t stopped women from trying it though?”. Do you think alot of women try to get it on with gay men? That’s another thing I just don’t fucking get. Get a clue, girls! If a man is gay, it means he isn’t interested in you in that way!
Joey
” don’t get the score”? Care to explain exactly what you mean?
Joey
And by the way Zach, just out of curiosity: What did you mean exactly in your story when you said that had this new opportunity to be a parent “that you never had?”. Couldn’t you have had a child through adoption or through in vitro?
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Joey:
I swore I wouldn’t write more…but this..
“It’s time for real gay men to take a stand”
I think some are standing, as you’ve seen from me, gaynumbers etc..so what do YOU mean?
I’m not sure why the seperatist attitude? I agree that a helluva lot of guys/girls are more bisexual then they are GAY or STRAIGHT.
And that comes from experience and research.
Why don’t you try and ask more gays mens on blogs or chatrooms? Don’t assume something without delving into further research that ISN’T desktop.
I think you meant to say it’s time for GAY men/women men to stand. BISEXUAL men/women to stand and STRAIGHT men/women to stand. TRANS men/women to stand.
We’re all in the gutter-that is life and I don’t think it’s fair to leave some to swim in it without support.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Joey:
I think that’s what he meant by personal.
And vitro/adoption is pricey when you’re just a dude in your twenties and not working within the corporate ladder..
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Pragmatist:
Your sexuality is fluid cause your Bisexual. You were ALWAYS Bi but you never knew.
This is my theory, we are more BI then we are gay or straight. Some of us may never experience a BI experience until they are old or even maybe married.
Why?
Because the whole ‘nurture’ arguments plays away…
So Joey, sexuality IS fluid….if you’re biologically Bisexual. I just think a lot of people don’t even realise it because they spend so much time conforming, or having to conform or playing within the rules of society.
TANK
I don’t want to meet the love of my life, a man who claims to be exlusively gay, and then walk in the door one day from work and see him having sex with a woman.
No?! Why how come? …Because it’s everyone else’s dream.
I guess it’s because I’m very secure in my sexuality
…that’s gotta be it.
Joey
There may be alot of bisexual people, but I would hope those people would identify as “bisexual” rather than “gay” or “straight” which are labels that don’t line up with who they really are and just confuses other people. Also John, what did you mean by “why don’t you try and ask more gays mens on blogs or chatrooms? Don’t assume something without delving into further research that ISN’T desktop.” Are you saying you think most self-identified gay men would have sex with women?
Joey
“And vitro/adoption is pricey when you’re just a dude in your twenties and not working within the corporate ladder.”
Adoption then. It doesn’t really matter, I was just saying that he had the opportunity to be a parent through other means rather than having sex with a woman.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Joey:
No I don’t but from the responses here…it’s pretty interesting isn’t it??
I mean this is why their is such confusion within communities..notably the Gay community.
I for one can not and don’t want to imagine having sex with women, I’m NOT being sexist. Women are very beautiful like ALL living things and have done tremendous things for society..more so then men..
BUT I’ve NEVER wanted to sleep with one or even kiss one. I’ve had plenty of chances, lived in the most bohemian cities with the sexiest Brazillian to Scandanavian…black to white to chinese looking women…
And nope.
I think you should take this opportunity and do further research and maybe right a thesis that can grow and grow as you get older…heck you may even change it!
And like I said, some people DON’T know that they are bisexual!
Lemme give you an example, I used to live in Barcalona…and man EVERY dog, woman, man and her cat is SEXY and CONFIDENT.
I’m not fearful of that, in fact I love it. But a friend of a friend when to Baraclona for a music art festival and said he never wanted to go there again. Why? Because everyone was so goddman beautiful that he not only felt inferior BUT thought he couldn’t trust HIMSELF!
Now how many people live their little towns or cities or bubbles to experience LIFE-cultures, movements and action across the world or their country?
Not many at all.
So if you’ve never been near or around temptation. You fit sungly into the box of what society says we should live our life. How the HELL do you know WHO you really are sexually..or even culturally??
How?
Experiences DEFINE you. They SHAPE you. They make YOU who you are.
So this is why I think so many people are Bi BUT have never had the instance to react on it culturally, so they may always think they are straight…or gay BUT then boom…
These people are DIFFERENT to the kind that just know and feel the site of a womans body turns them OFF.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Joey:
Adoption is expensive.
And I think it’s personal because it’s his best friend that is invloved and I’m not saying anything but it’s rather suspectful that SHE would sleep with a gay man…that’s weird..like she obv really fancied him and felt she could change him or had a chance and the perfect way to get her man is to get pregnant..
Tried and tested and men fall for it ALL the time.
Women can be so funny sometimes…the amount of women I’be had who want to TURN me…
Whatever, get a grip but if you are forever objectified in society…then you can only think in those terms when you’re with ANY man..gay or straight..
P.S I’m not saying men aren’t too blame too! They are pretty narcisstically dumb!
Pragmatist
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): John.
I think that is a fine interpretation. Actually, it relates to what I was saying earlier about this being a debate more about definitions than substantive, underlying reality (at least for most of us). It’s perfectly coherent to conceptualize all instances of fluid sexuality as instances of always-existing bisexuality.
That said, I do have some skepticism about the idea that biology put us into three discrete categories. I’m not aware of any other aspect of human or animal behavior that works that way.
Also, what does it mean to be “heterosexual” or even “bisexual”? The notion that there are two discrete genders to be attracted to is somewhat dubious. The existence of transgendered people shows that there’s a whole continuum to gender, and that gender is ultimately a social construct itself. (And gender expression is really the principal form of outward display of sex.) So if I’m a transgender person attracted only to other transgender types, what would I be in this taxonomy of discrete classifications?
Mark
Joey —
Your passion is great. Remember you’re not going to change people’s minds who are settled where they are.
Consider the condescending tone of Pragmatist’s narratives. He’s what might be best described as a bisexual supremacist. He cannot see the world in any other way and because he has saturated himself with people like himself, then it must be that everyone else is like that too. I and others who have posted here who are well into their 40s or older and stated that we are exclusively 100% homosexual gay males don’t fit into Pragmatist’s world view. Because you’re quite young he can’t believe that you won’t change your thinking on this matter as you grow older–even though I and others have demonstrated that one can maintain these types of views well into middle age. In an earlier post I addressed Pragmatist’s seeming view that sexual fluidity reigns supreme: “The most current comprehensive work on sexual fluidity was published last year by professor Lisa M. Diamond at the University of Utah entitled Sexual Fluidity : Understanding Women’s Love and Desire. Even professor Diamond admitted that while her study was about women’s sexuality fluidity, there has not been enough research done on men’s sexual fluidity, and furthermore she confirms that from the research that has been done, the phenomenon of sexual fluidity is more prevalent in women than in men.” Apparently to Pragmatist real social scientific research on the subject is a minor distraction. That the phenomenon of sexual fluidity is likely not as prevalent in men as in women be damned!
My advice to you Joey is not to waste your passion and efforts on someone like Pragmatist. Not all bisexuals are as insufferable as Pragmatist, thank goodness. As an earlier commenter (Tank) said to you, people like this lie on the fringes. And Tank doesn’t quite believe that you are who you are anyway! What’s up with that?
I do find it extremely funny that Sam had introduced an interesting anecdote in one of his previous posts: “What group of gays hasn’t had the “who is the one woman you’d fuck” conversation? (Wherein the gays who would never fuck a woman say so, and those who have some small attractions say so, and we all laugh and feel closer in being able to share our true, authentic selves…”
In my 45 years on this Earth, having worked in gay organizations while in college and years of spending time with gay friends, not once did we ever devolve into such a bizarre conversation (not that there’s anything wrong with that). But I must tell you I think it would make for a superbly hilarious entry in an oxymoron dictionary, thus:
Gay male bonding: 1. Where a group of gay men enjoy a meaningful personable exchange on who is the one woman they would like to fuck.
That is so damn funny! LOL
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Pragmatist:
If you want to talk about Animals, they are really fundamental in liking men or women, NO in between.
It’s all power struggles and the fluidness exists in that they don’t stick to one partner but have many..or change according to who shows attraction etc etc..
But WHAT is inbetween but Bisexuality? Being BI, you can be 80% more for men or 90%…or 60% more for women…
I.e Transgenders….phew..I need to read more because I don’t understand why if you want to be a woman OR feel like a woman..you want to DRESS like them?
I mean I wonder what Lesbians feel about that? As women and women lovers should they not seek to dress more feminine OR have the urge?
For me the way a lot of people..straight…or gay act based on society on a whole. This is too indoctrinated to change.
Like lots of asian men..some arab and east africans are REALLY effiminate BUT not girly…or camp..
This is books and books of stuff..
But I just think that culture has a lot to answer for and a lot of people don’t know their ass from their elbow because of how/where they have grown up and are part of..
Alex
@Anthony in Nashville: The word is sex. You should wear a condom whenever you’re having sex (with the exception of committed, long term relationships, and when trying to get a girl pregnant, which requires the absence of a condom and should involve a long term relationship).
Joey
“And I think it’s personal because it’s his best friend that is invloved and I’m not saying anything but it’s rather suspectful that SHE would sleep with a gay man…that’s weird..like she obv really fancied him and felt she could change him or had a chance and the perfect way to get her man is to get pregnant..
Tried and tested and men fall for it ALL the time.
Women can be so funny sometimes…the amount of women I’be had who want to TURN me…”
You see, that kind of shit just really pisses me off. I mean I’m TOTALLY supportive of women as I’ve said before, and I’m a BIG proponent of women’s rights, but something really just creeps me out about women who try to make gay men “turn” to heterosexuality. I mean hello?!, don’t you know it’s not going to work? How would you feel if a gay guy tried to “turn” your boyfriend gay? I just don’t get what they’re thinking when they do stuff like that…it’s like trying to turn a Black man white, which is impossible lol…
Joey
“No. 4 · ask ena
Umm…I’d like to know what SHE was thinking, having unprotected sex with a gay man…helllooo???”
Maybe because he seemed up for it she thought he was actually bi and not gay. After all, most people’s definition of the word “gay” is “exclusively homosexual”, so she probably, looking at his behavior, thought he was actually bi, considering gay men don’t willingly have sex with women.
Mark
@Joey: Women can be predatory too. I would also question why some “gay” men associate themselves with these types of women. I suspect that many of these “gay” men either are unable or don’t know how to establish healthy respectful boundaries with females (e.g., These same men will flirt with their female friends and do many things with them that can easily be misconstrued as more than friendship,…). And of course if they’re not fully out of the closet or possess a latent bisexuality it isn’t unusual for them to interact with females in this manner. It’s not fair to the women involved if the close interaction isn’t meant to be more than just friendship–these men are leading them on. And the behavior on these men’s part probably acts as a trigger to some women who then become predatory (e.g., She really loves him and maybe if she can pressure him, take advantage of him in a vulnerable moment–drunk or not, get him to fall asleep in bed together in an innocent moment and then let things happen as a result of caressing or fondling, and on and on). If there is ever any fault, it has to be on both parties. Unless rape is involved (e.g. a good cinematic example of this in the film the “Wedding Banquet” when the Asian male character tells the woman no and she makes it clear that she is “going to liberate him” — it is astonishingly one of the most vulgar moments in supposed gay cinema I have ever scene, can you imagine if the gender roles were reversed what an uproar there would have been).
Mark
Well, I think I’ve exhausted all I can probably say on this matter. (I’m sure to the joy of some commenters here)
Joey — I wish you the best on your journey in life. I hope you find the answers you’re looking for. I would agree with many of those that I disagree with on here that those answers won’t be “black and white” but that doesn’t mean you can’t be true to yourself, love yourself as you are, and respect yourself as a result.
AJ
Oh my FUCKING GOD! All these comments and NO ONE has yet realized that JOEY is NOT 17?! Jesus Christ! Dude is more like 57, and a weathered, worn, and weary gay man beaten down by what the gay rights movement and the gay community have become. It’s so plainly obvious by the language he uses, and I’m really incredulous that no one has picked up on it, or even thought it (?).
Pragmatist
@Mark: Oh, for God’s sake. I’m a bit embarrassed to be dignifying your comments with a response, but here goes.
I am not a “bisexual supremacist.” I don’t think bisexual behavior or identification is any better than heterosexual or homosexual behavior or identification, though it is perhaps a bit more convenient.
You wrote: “[W]e are exclusively 100% homosexual gay males don’t fit into Pragmatist’s world view. Because you’re quite young he can’t believe that you won’t change your thinking on this matter as you grow older–even though I and others have demonstrated that one can maintain these types of views well into middle age.”
Did you actually bother to read what I wrote, or did you just do the spot-check to make sure I wasn’t agreeing with you before you decided to flame me?
Nowhere did I suggest that I “can’t believe” Joey will maintain a purely homosexual orientation. Why would I have difficulty believing that? I know several people who have never had even a stray thought about the opposite sex.
I only expressed doubt about Joey’s claim to know the future with certainty. And I’ll happily reiterate that doubt here. It is. Impossible. To know. The future. Therefore, before Joey devotes his young life and self-identity to a weird form of sexual McCarthyism, he might want to consider the fact that people can surprise themselves as they get older. Duh.
You also wrote: “Apparently to Pragmatist real social scientific research on the subject is a minor distraction. That the phenomenon of sexual fluidity is likely not as prevalent in men as in women be damned!”
To the contrary, I think empirical research in this area is interesting and useful. I would caution you against leaning too heavily on the word “scientific,” however. Empirical research, particularly in the social sciences, isn’t really scientific. I know; I am actually trained to design and author empirical studies, and have personally done so. The statistical methods we use can be very illuminating, but they’re rarely conclusive, particularly on issues that have mixed causative and correlative elements. Further, the potential for human error in the data collection and modeling processes is just tremendous. On top of that, the quality of data available in most social science fields isn’t very good. (Nowhere is that truer than in sexuality research.) This doesn’t mean that empirical studies should be disregarded; rather, it means they should be read in context, with an open mind, and a critical eye.
Anyway, I digress. You seem to think it’s particularly damning that one researcher finds greater fluidity in women’s sexuality than in men’s. I don’t. In fact, I’m not even surprised by that finding. I couldn’t say whether it’s for social or biological reasons, but women have always struck me as exhibiting more fluid sexuality. What is your point, exactly?
burton21
@Joey: This thread has gotten so long and overplayed that I almost debated not commenting. Alas, here we are.
Joey, I’ve done a lot of work in activism, specifically on GLBT rights and issues. Suffice it to say, your misguided views about what is “destroying the gay community” (not AIDS, not hard drug abuse but, as you put it, ‘fucking some pussy’) probably would not set you up for a career in social activism. Your superiority complex (thinking one “type” of gay is better/worse/more beneficial/destructive than another) your arrogance (thinking you know people on here better than they know themselves) and your judgmental attitude (no clarification needed here) are not exactly qualities that social activists look for in their peers. Do us a favor and choose a different career path.
And I’m not going to apologize if this sounds harsh. You need a dose of reality, and from what I’ve read on this thread, you show no signs of trying or wanting to understand others’ perspectives (asking WHY over and over again is not good enough honey). People have given you their why’s, yet you continue to go back to the “I don’t understand it, YOU’RE RUINING MY COMMUNITY.” Grow up.
Sam
I had to stop commenting on this, because I was finding myself taking potshots at folks just because we disagree about something, which is not the kind of behavior I find attractive in myself. So to everyone I got bitchy with, especially Joey, I’m sorry. I still stand by my perspective, but I didn’t have to get mean and self-righteous about it.
@The Gay Numbers: I didn’t take it as him trying to manipulate as much as trying to bring up the bigger picture. We can argue about whether he, Alec and I are gay or bi as much as we want, but at the end of the day, none of us can have our same-sex marriage respected by the federal government or that of 44-45 states (depending on how RI shakes out). Just what I got out of it.
@Mark: I’ve had this conversation come up in groups of gay men too many times to count. And not because I’m the one bringing it up or because my gay friends are all secretly bisexual. Different strokes, I guess.
Oh God. And with that horrendous, unintentional-but-left-after-I-realized-it pun, I bid this thread adieu.
Mark in Colorado
@Sam: Okay, last comment from me but your last comment inspired me.
I never thought for a second that you haven’t experienced those conversations.
I still stand by my perspectives as well, but I want to revise something unreasonable and harsh I did state earlier (esp. as I specifically named you and Alec): My husband and I would welcome you and others who share your views in our home and our lives, I can’t promise we wouldn’t have a spirited but respectful debate, but it is completely unreasonable for me to reject you outright without being willing to get to know you.
Good luck in New Hampshire. I’ll be thinking positive thoughts.
And to everyone else in this thread, I apologize for any personal ad hominem ugliness that I may have expressed.
Family spats are such a pain.