The Homos Have Taken Washington

GetEqual, Queer Rising, and Talk about Equality are getting their D.C. protest of DADT underway right this minute! Queer military veterans are there. As are regular civilians. And SLDN’s Aubrey Sarvis, the Godfather Of Repeal, is seen here speaking. We hope you’re wearing your spaghetti strap tank and taking lots of TwitPics! Add “@BarackObama” so you can be sure the president notices!

Oh look, Howard Dean showed up. We hear he’s there for the free buttons.

Six arrested after chaining themselves to the White House fence. None of them Dan Choi(!), who abided a stay-away order.

[photo via, via]

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  • AndrewW

    Is Barney Frank going to stop by and scold these “immature and childish” publicity seekers, again?

    These stunts don’t change any minds or votes.


    Jeez Andrew, let it go. These “stunts” are getting national attention. Would you have stopped those “stunts” in the early 60’s in Selma or Birmingham?

  • AndrewW

    @DEREK WASHINGTON: It’s not the 60’s. That was civil disobedience then, this is self-promotion by a few self-proclaimed “activists.” This is 2010 and the world has changed.

    We don’t need attention, we need results. Like Barney Frank said these are “childish, immature stunts” and “they don’t change any minds or votes.”

    Thankfully, the media is NOT covering these publicity seekers.

  • Jon

    @AndrewW: Stop being a dick. If you don’t have the balls to do something just STFU!!

  • AndrewW

    @Jon: Just because most of understand that these stunts are NOT helpful or effective, doesn’t mean we aren’t doing anything. We’re just doing things that we know are effective.

    Like Barney Frank said these stunts don’t “change any minds or votes.” It doesn’t “take balls” to pretend that “demanding” is effective, it takes balls to look for real, sustainable solutions.

  • Mike L.

    @AndrewW: Oh so you’re doing things like, say, HRC has. Yeah that’s worked wonders, congrats.

  • Mark n Dallas

    @AndrewW: A few more of these protests and we’ll have our full equality. I sense that Obama and the Democrats are about to give in to the relentless pressure being applied by a few activists.

    The answer for our community sin’t Gay Inc., but a small band of activists willing to rick their lives for our rights. Demanding gets results. Demanding scares the enemy. Demanding makes our supposed “friends” fear us. Demanding works.

  • Mark n Dallas

    As best I can tell about a hundred brave people demonstrated today. These are our heroes and they are taking over leadership of our movement. They are generating fear and respect by demanding.

    I agree with others that Dan Choi and Robin McGeehee are LGBT Community’s MLK and Susan B. Anthony. We owe them a lot.

  • Marx

    “A few more of these protests and we’ll have our full equality.”


    “They are generating fear and respect by demanding.”

    Sorry, fear and respect are mutually exclusive for me. Remember the Bush Years?

    “I agree with others that Dan Choi and Robin McGeehee are LGBT Community’s MLK and Susan B. Anthony.”

    That’s ridiculous. I’m grateful to Dan Choi for stepping forward and showing some leadership, but he doesn’t hold a candle to MLK and it’s insulting to MLK to make the comparison.

  • Marx

    I suppose we should respect the Tea Partiers because they’re generating fear.

  • Hilarious

    @Marx: For whatever reason it’s trendy to compare gay rights campaigns to black history. Totally apples and oranges but some people will never understand why it’s an offensive and belittling comparison.

    Black people were in real physical and psychological danger due to hatred in this country. We’re suffering mild discomfort.

    I don’t see how anyone can compare the two and I feel it’s rather ignorant to do so.

  • Mark n Dallas

    @Marx: Yes, the “Tea Partiers” are a threat – that’s why they’re running our country.

    Wake up. We need to take to the streets. Demanding is the answer.

  • Mark n Dallas

    @Hilarious: Civil rights is civil rights. We must copy everything that MLK and Rosa Parks and Malcom X did – they won, remember? GetEqual is just copying history and they know that marching and protesting will provide our full equality now.

  • Marx

    Take to the streets? I have no interest in a revolution. Let’s cut a deal. There must be something the “No” votes want, that we can give them, more than they want to keep gays out of the military or marriage.

  • Mark n Dallas

    @Marx: We are starting a revolution with GetEqual. We don’t negotiate, we demand. It worked for Blacks and Women, not it’s our turn.

  • Marx

    @Mark n Dallas Oh yeah, it worked out so well for blacks.

    You’re white, aren’t you.

  • Andy

    @Hilarious: One of my friends was shoved against the lockers when in high school, about a decade ago. Had to drop out.

    She’s five feet tall and 90 pounds. Just a mild discomfort flesh wound!

  • Marx

    Gays are still in physical and psychological danger in many parts of this country. I’m sure Mrs. Shepard would agree. But we have the “choice” to stay in the closet and try to lead miserable repressed lives to meet societal expectations. Blacks never had the option to be white. We can learn some lessons, but the two movements are not equatable.

  • jeffree

    @AndrewW: As a self-professed expert in strategy, your strategy is failing miserably. On Queerty and other blogs, you & your 7 + known sock-puppets [Hi, Brian NYC] make the same statements over and over:

    Result: You get voted down, you get banned, you’re ignores, & your messages go unread. That’s a solid FAIL in terms of being persuasive.

    So, it’s time for you to employ your own strategic thinking to your own tactics. Try to think of ways to *ENGAGE* other people rather than RAGE at them.

    If you dislike an organization’s actions then suggest BETTER ideas. I know you can do it — there’s no doubt you’re intelligent, but your inability to articulate OPTIONS is like that of a toddler who screams “NO NO NO” and can not ask for what s/he wants.

    Smarten up & lighten up.

  • Kieran

    A couple days ago President Obama was photographed openly weeping at the funeral of a black civil rights freedom fighter, Dorothy Height. At the funeral it was recounted that whenever anyone would counsel against Negroes in the ’40s and ’50s agitating and protesting for their rights because the time wasn’t “ripe”, Dorothy’s reply was always the same.

    “RIPEN IT!” she would say.

  • AndrewW

    @jeffree: I appreciate your comment.

    I don’t mind having my comments hidden on Queerty. I believe Queerty is learning that feature is stifling conversation and a fair exchange of ideas and opinions. Jon Aravosis’ AmeriBlog and Pam Spalding block anyone that disagrees with their positions – that is their choice, but I’m not interested in one-sided preaching. Conservative Christians would be smart to simply visit Queerty and try to hide comments they don’t like. It only takes a handful of zealots to hide comments. GetEqual has already exchanged emails suggesting that my (and others in disagreement with their tactics) have their comments censored. It’s too easy to block intelligent discourse and the fair exchange of ideas. It is up to Queerty to determine if they accept that reality.

    Our movement is dysfunctional and there is no united strategy for success. I haven’t professed to have the answers, but I think the questions are very important. I have stressed accountability for all tactics, methods, strategies and organizations. GetEqual and the small group advocating “direct-action” have rejected the simple idea that they need to provide some rationale that their efforts are helpful. They need to do this with some substance and not simply ill-placed historical references. It isn’t 1964 and the World has changed.

    If activists can demonstrate how these publicity efforts lead to support (or even sympathy) then they would earn our support. So far, they haven’t. I monitor all the LGBT Blogs (as some expense) and comments have been against these stunts at an 20:1 ratio. People are expressing disagreement and concern for these activities and many are asking that same question: HOW do they HELP us?

    I am not a fan of HRC, primarily because I do not see any evidence of lobbying the US Congress being effective. They have never provided any evidence, either. But, I paid for research seeking to find “changed votes” in the US Congress during the last 30 years and couldn’t find any. If lobbying US Senators works, that tactic/strategy should be easy to defend.

    I have also suggested we “win” when we get enough people to join us and support our full equality. Research indicates that two-thirds of the US adult population would support us, but we do nothing in that regard. Instead, we are investing in three strategies: 1) Legal efforts, 2) Political efforts and 3) Direct Action. We have made some progress legally, but very little politically. The final strategy – demanding or employing high-profile expressions of anger and frustration, has NO evidence of success. None.

    I get the anger and frustration – they are very real emotions, but as a community I think we can do better. I do not believe anyone responds favorably to our public displays of anger. As a strategy demanding only works when there is a threat attached. Aravosis says we will punish the Democrats if they don’t deliver, but that is an empty threat – they don’t need us. In fact, they can drift to the “other side” and get plenty of financial support. We also don’t have enough participation in Marches, protests and rallies to worry anyone. Instead, it only makes us look weaker.

    In order for us to figure out how to win we must embrace accountability and make an honest effort to determine what actually works. I take this very seriously and I have spent a lot of money seeking answers. Hundreds of people have contributed ideas, methods and strategies. For some in our community it makes sense to seek answers, instead of censoring conversation and trying to “hide” reasonable questions. Questions I believe we should all be asking.

  • Marx

    And it still took 25 years and an ambitious Congressman to make it happen.

    Look, agitate and protest all you want, just quit acting so surprised and shocked when it doesn’t happen tomorrow.

  • Marx

    Hear fucking hear, AndrewW.

  • Soakman

    @ Hilarious

    An ex-boyfriend of mine was stabbed by his own mother with a screwdriver. Gays and lesbians may not be physically in bondage like blacks were, but there are some very real and very horrific things happening out there. The worst is that there is not place of ease or brotherhood for most of us to retreat to. We don’t all have community centers or even a friend pool that includes other GLBT people.

    When your friends and family are also your some of your biggest fears, threats, and possibly quite literally psychological or emotional terrorists, and THIS is accepted as normal or ‘not that big of deal,’ then I feel like you acknowledge those things.

    People are still being lynched, criminalized, kicked out of their homes, abused physically, abused mentally and verbally (to the point that this has become the NORM), and IN ADDITION to these things, we are considered politically as sub-humans.

    Yes, they are not the same thing. But nobody, black, white, asian, whatever, young, old, or even stupid, should think that we as GLBT are ‘just in slight discomfort.” If you think this, that’s effed up. Someone clearly has a peachy keen life with positive influences in it for whatever reason (congratulations seriously), you are projecting it unfairly onto every GLBT person, many of which do NOT even remotely possess the above average quality of life that you have achieved.

  • Kieran

    Don’t be surprised if these “non-sanctioned” and “non-approved” Gay activism civil rights protests get the same treatment from the Corrupt Corporate Newsmedia that the anti-Iraq War movement got: Ignore them and maybe they’ll just go away. The Establishment Newsmedia clearly disapproved of the Iraq War protests (so they ignored them) and they only like gays protesting when they are behaving as loyal Democrats who are against Republicans and/or conservatives.

  • Marx


    Even if that’s all true, if the goal is media coverage, then all the more reason we should be targeting such activities at opponents rather than reluctant supporters.

  • Kieran

    Fuck the Corporate Newsmedia. I don’t need CNN or Fox News to tell me that Dan Choi and these other gay Freedom Fighters are American heroes who are courageously standing up for what is right. This isn’t the old days when people depended on Walter Kronkite and CBS to tell them the news. The internet has changed all that.

  • Hilarious

    It’s amusing to me how few of you seem to know anything about black history yet you thumbs down and rant about how wrong I am.

    First of all I am a gay man too just like you, I deal with the same issues, so it’s not like I’m against “us”.

    Secondly a person here or there being attacked by a passerby is not the same as being attacked by the government.

    It boggles the mind how any of you can possibly compare what black people went through in America from slavery to freedom, to Jim Crow, to proper schooling, to the Civil Rights Movement, to interracial marriage(lynching of both parties not just being disallowed), to ending segregation, to Affirmative Action, etc. The list goes on and on.

    This wasn’t some 20 or 30 year right. It went on well over 200 years and some of you are really clueless to believe there’s a comparison?


    Civil Rights and Gay Rights are not one in the same. If you do the math, maybe even a little research, you’ll see when you compare what blacks fought for and what gays are fighting for don’t even come close to a proper comparison.

    I really don’t even see why you want to compare them in the first place. You take away from this struggle when you ride the coattails of the past, you also weaken your own argument with those against us because they can clearly see the two don’t match up either.

    This fight is valid, this fight can stand on it’s own.

  • j

    @Soakman: Absolutely spot on, well done and sorry about your friend


    I , for the most part, think Andrew & Gay Inc’s way is a total FAIL. However, it really bothers me that the useless system that stifles conversation is still in place. I shouldn’t have top click to see his latest spin on why The Firm is the way. I’m a big boy and can handle it.

    Queerty dudes, this came up last week and a solid majority of your readers expressed that they didn’t like it.

    Let it go. No one will miss it.

  • wondermann

    @Marx: I agree with you. This did not get national attention. This wasn’t even on CSPAN

  • Jhon

    I hate Queerty and the people that write for it. So cynical and so immature.

  • Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com


    I believe you mean well, but you’re making the same mistake as others who try to dismiss comparisons of the black [of all sexual orientations] civil rights movement with the gay [of all colors] civil rights movement with the argument that invariably comes down to, “Gays haven’t suffered as much as blacks, therefore, you CANNOT compare the two.”

    That’s come to be called the “Oppression Olympics” and it’s intellectually shallow and rhetorical ridiculous and historically dated. Would you agree with someone who said, “Blacks never suffered as much as Jews so shut up about the poor blacks.” It’s not a different numbers game, but that bigotry is bigotry is bigotry.

    The ONLY reason gays have not been victimized in the numbers that blacks and Jews have is because we are harder to identify. The Nazis certainly tried, and the American military has a history of coercing/tricking one identified gay into identifying many more for them.

    Have gays ever been enslaved as a people? No, but neither have blacks in the US for a century and a half.

    Can nongay blacks, unlike gays [of any color], serve in the military?
    Can nongay blacks, unlike gays [of any color], marry whomever they wish?
    Can nongay blacks, unlike gays [of any color], have their foreign-born spouses automatically become naturalized US citizens?
    Can nongayblacks, unlike gays [of any color], adopt children at will?
    Are nongay blacks, unlike gays [of any color], protected by federal law re employement and housing?
    Is there any respected church still preaching that nongay blacks are “cursed by God” unlike sermons about gays [of any color]?
    Is there any respected church still preaching that blacks should have no civil rights, unlike sermons about gays [of any color]?

    I don’t know what your history is, but I do know that Martin Luther King, Jr.’s, instructor in civil disobedience who was getting arrested and beaten by police years before Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat and who organized the 1963 March on Washington along with countless other accomplishments was black AND gay: the late Bayard Rustin. And that over 20 years ago he declared that: “Gays are the new ‘niggers’.”


    I know that the late, black president of DC’s Gay & Lesbian Activist Alliance, Mel Boozer, told the Democratic National Convention in 1980:

    “Would you ask me how I dare to compare the civil rights struggle with the struggle for lesbian and gay rights? I can compare them and I do compare them, because I know what it means to be called a ‘nigger’ and I know what it means to be called a ‘faggot’, and I understand the differences in the marrow of my bones. And I can sum up that difference in one word: none.”


    Let’s be strengthened by our common experiences with hatred and work together.

  • Hilarious

    @Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com:

    My point was the struggle that still isn’t really over took 200 years to get this far. I wasn’t trying to throw weight around, just saying it wasn’t some overnight affair.

    Most of the comments that make comparison don’t put nearly as much thought or use half the respect you did in that post.

    If people who did make comparison between the two posted like you just did I’d never raise issue with it in the first place.

    Usually the people who make the comparison are the same ones who will turn around and say “All blacks are homophobic.” or “All Africans are homophobic.” in their very next post.

    My only issue is with people who post very disrespectfully of the black struggle while comparing the gay struggle to it.

    Well that and I still believe our fight for gay rights is strong enough to stand on it’s own. Especially when you consider how many audiences will turn their ears off the minute you say the word black or the phrase “civil rights”.

  • Hilarious

    But you know I still have to add to that no one dares compare the black struggle to the jewish struggle either.

    It’s always a comparison with the black struggle with everyone else’s and that just annoys me to be quite honest.

    Whenever an issue with gay rights or anyone else’s rights come up the N word is openly used to make a point among other things that are just plain disrespectful and I can’t deny that it bothers me because it really does.

  • Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com


    “But you know I still have to add to that no one dares compare the black struggle to the jewish struggle either. It’s always a comparison with the black struggle with everyone else’s….”

    That’s certainly the primary fact in the U.S., but that’s because Americans are far more directly connected with the history of racism as revolving around the scars of our Civil War, the Jim Crow era which followed it, and the MLK-identified freedom movement era. I can remember [sorry, I’m old] watching on the evening news film of blacks being clubbed, fire-hosed, and attacked by police dogs just hours before.

    By contrast, tho each year seems to bring another Holocaust film, it happened “over there,” it happened 70+ years ago, and many Holocaust victims who immigrated to the U.S. never wanted/want to talk about their experiences. And, given that being Jewish is a religion/familial identity not a race, most Jews like most gays “pass.”

    BUT I guarantee you if you spent some time in Israel you’d hear some nongay Jews saying to gay Jews, “How dare you compare your struggle with ours!”

  • PwrBttm

    I truly believe you need an inside / out strategy. We need those to scream bloody murder on the outside- as well as those on the inside who try to create policy changes.

    What disappoints me- is that even after a huge media buzz on the blogs / partnering with other organizations – the protest today still only got around 150 protesters. It tells me that the message is not resonating with our own community.

    Maybe it will grow, but people need to see that their protests will actually effect change and I have not seen the evidence for that so far.

  • JamieMcG


    I think Barney Frank is trying to figure out what he’s going to say on Monday…you know…two weeks after he said there would be a vote on ENDA in “a week or two.” When are you going to get it through your skull that you’re being lied to? What more needs to happen to make you realize that?

  • Rob Moore

    @Marx: Being soft-spoken and polite doesn’t seem to be getting anyone’s attention. MLK was not soft-spoken. He could reach people the way Winston Churchill could reach people, but neither he nor Churchill did it by being soft-spoken and oh so polite.

    In life, the squeaky wheel gets the attention.

  • Cassandra

    “First of all I am a gay man too just like you, I deal with the same issues, so it’s not like I’m against “us”.”

    So you say, and perhaps you are simply one of the self-hating gays still nurturing internalized homophobia. But considering that your arguments have not deviated the slightest from those used daily by homophobes, it is possible that you are a heterosexual teen aged boy homophobe playing games through an anonymous id.

    Your arguments convey more than your claim to be gay.

    “It boggles the mind how any of you can possibly compare what black people went through”

    Closed minds are often boggled by dissent and disagreement. So? People with no real defense tend to rely on any dismissals like ‘it boggles the mind’. So?

    I’ve seen many heterosexual/homophobes make the argument you are making. All were inexcusably ignorant about the history of homophobia in western cultures.

    GLBTQ people have been persecuted approximately 1300 to 1700 years, depending on which historian’s argument for start date one goes by. That is some 900 years longer than slavery existed in the U.S.

    The institution of slavery is terrible, no doubt about it, but, GLBTQ people have been essentially exiled and abandoned, or openly persecuted not only by strangers, but by their own families, for far, far longer than slavery existed. And anti-homosexual prejudice was an institution even in places that rejected slavery. And when all the excuses are swept away, oppression is oppression is oppression – the precise details of how that oppression is inflicted are of less importance than the fundamental abuse and dehumanization of oppression itself.

    Some people conveniently define slavery solely in economic terms, of being physically purchased and owned. That is a simplistic understanding of slavery. GLBTQ people have been held enslaved to hetero-centrism for 1300 to 1700 years, under the domination of prejudice, coerced with violence to adhere to submit to authority other than their own conscience, an authority that asserted control even over their own bodies (by enforcing heterosexual sexual norms).

    While people of color began winning equality before the end of the civil war when they were allowed to serve openly in the military, GLBTQ people are still denied the freedom to serve, and risk death, for their country. People of color have had the right to marry for over a hundred years, GLBTQ people still cannot marry the person of their choice.

    Mainstream religion began recognizing, appreciating and supporting people of color more than a hundred years before it acknowledged that GLBTQ people could also be people of faith.

    And for the most part, throughout slavery and years of racism, people of color were not rejected by and expelled from their families. Their families were sometimes broken by their oppressors, but, their own families never were their oppressors. For GLBTQ people, for most of the last 1700 years to the present, the experience of oppression generally begins at home with their parents and siblings.

    If anything, people of color should be embarrassed at any argument that implies that their experience of oppression was more severe than that of GLBTQ people.

    “Civil Rights and Gay Rights are not one in the same.”

    That is another standard battle cry of homophobes. What an amazing coincidence. And it is wrong – gay rights are civil rights, no more and no less. The quest for civil equality for homosexuals – gay rights – is the quest for civil rights for human beings just as human as people of color, or Jews, or any other group of human beings.

    “If you do the math, maybe even a little research, you’ll see when you compare what blacks fought for and what gays are fighting for don’t even come close to a proper comparison.”

    Proper is such a subjective term. Let’s try accurate instead.

    People of color fought to be free of discrimination in housing, employment, access to public resources. GLBTQ people are still fighting to be free of discrimination in housing, employment, access to public resources.

    People of color fought to be perceived as equal to everyone else under the law, GLBTQ people are still fighting to be perceived as equal to everyone else under the law.

    People of color fought for representation, to have elected representatives who came from their community, to have their faces and voices heard in the public arena. GLBTQ people are still fighting for representation, to have elected representatives who came from their community, to have their faces and voices heard in the public arena.

    People of color fought to be free from verbal abuse and degradation – hate speech as acceptable behavior in public. GLBTQ people are still fighting to be free from verbal abuse and degradation – hate speech as acceptable behavior in public.

    And so on.

    GLBTQ people are fighting for the same things that people of color fought/are fighting for, the same things that any oppressed people have fought for or are fighting for. Genuine GLBTQ people recognize that instinctively, homophobes deny it instinctively.

  • Rob Moore

    @Hilarious: Ok, you confuse me when you say it is totally apples and oranges to compare the gay civil rights movement to the black civil rights movement. I read of gay people being attacked somewhere in the U.S. almost every day. I grew up in Georgia during the civil rights movement. I remember the discussions at family gatherings. I remember a teacher talking about how in the next school year, she wouldn’t be able to use the “N” word when she referred to blacks since our elementary school was being integrated in 1966. I remember the separate waiting rooms at my doctor’s office, and how the furniture in the “Colored” waiting room had better upholstery (because it was almost never used). I remember black people marching and white people raging about god not wanting races to mix. I remember Lester Maddox running for governor on a segregationist platform in 1966 and winning.

    I remember stories about lynchings of uppity blacks who thought they were as good as white people although the last documented case in Georgia was in the late 1940s. I remember playing with black children while their parents were picking cotton on my great uncle’s farm next to ours (we raised chickens). I did not understand why my 5th grade teacher thought black children would be a bad thing. I also remember white people who would say things in response to the film “Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner” such as “If my daughter brought one to my house, I would get my shotgun and shoot both of them”.

    White people didn’t mind nonwhites getting married as long as they weren’t trying to marry a white person, but it was against the law to mix races in the southern states and many other states. California did not allow it until its law was overturned in the courts, and they didn’t have a referendum to reverse the court’s decision.

    Now, tell me Hilarious, how is that so different from gay people who want equality. Is it because blacks in and out of the military were largely relegated to the roles of cooks, stewards, janitors, and other positions requiring hard or tedious labor? Straight people particularly of a certain age still tend to think of us as sissies who can only be hairdressers, interior decorators, and designers of clothes.

    I liked playing rugby for a gay club because we played other clubs that thought of themselves as straight. I think at first they expected us to burst into tears over a broken nail, but they quickly learned that being tackled hard by a gay man was no easier than being tackled by a straight man and that we didn’t faint or shriek at the sight of blood or a dislocated finger. The same change in thinking took hold in the military after it was integrated. Before, white soldiers tended to think blacks did not make good fighting soldiers. During Korea and Vietnam, they learned that we all bleed red, and we all have courage. This is how we will come to be accepted by straight soldiers once they know us in the field. We will bleed red. We too will die when we are disemboweled by an I.E.D. We too will protect our comrades and fight as readily as they do. The difference after the death of DADT is that they will know who we are and that we stand with them as brothers-in-arms. It will take care of itself.

    Once more, tell me how our struggle for equality is not comparable to the black civil rights movement.

  • AndrewW

    @JamieMcG: You asked: “When are you going to get it through your skull that you’re being lied to? What more needs to happen to make you realize that?

    That’s politics. It’s a game, Jamie. We went through this with Bill Clinton. Having a few people demanding doesn’t lead to victory – we need millions of people demanding. We need millions of people to join us and support our full equality. These publicity stunts don’t create support or even sympathy. If it was that easy, we’d protest all the time. But, it doesn’t work.

    @Rob Moore: You said: “In life, the squeaky wheel gets the attention.

    Or . . . replaced. Times have changed. We need to be more than “squeaky,” we need to be smart. We need to figure out how to win and then out everything we’ve got into it. Today’s GetEqual stunt went mostly un-noticed. It didn’t get attention and was not a successful rallying point for our community. That’s because it doesn’t have a real purpose. It isn’t connected to a strategy to win – it is (unfortunately) just about complaining.

    We can do better. We must do better.

  • Cassandra


    Get up from your computer then, and do something.


    Working with the National DNC for a year and being privileged to listen to conference calls most office staff didn’t get to listen to, in 2004, Howard Dean was one of the few Dems that struck me as a genuine person- Kerry seemed sincere but hired bad people. John Edwards struck me as a slime ball (surprise), and Obama’s head was getting bigger; his integrity was difficult to gauge and still is. Bravo to those rallying to end DADT in Washington! Perhaps the GLBTQ Community will add the backbone the Democrats are missing!

  • JamieMcG


    If we need millions of people demanding, where were you today? If “millions of people demanding”is what we need so badly, why do you spend most hours of your day demeaning the work of those who are DEMANDING our full equality? Because if you think HRC is demanding our full equality, you’re mistaken. HRC does some good work on one side of things, but you can be certain that HRC DEMANDS nothing, they ask nicely and are happy with the crumbs we are offered.

    Speaking as one of the organizers of today’s rally, I can say that getting off your ass and actually DOING something about our inequality DOES make a difference. And spending your day bitching about the people who ARE doing something, does nothing.

    Get off your ass. Stop telling us what we need and start doing it.


    @JamieMcG: Bravo! Money, votes, annoying letters with follow ups to politicians speak just as loudly, if you can’t be there; it’s like being a sofa athlete- regardless if “your team” wins or loses, you’re not the one in the game. You’re just the spectator yelling at the players who aren’t even aware of your existence. ;)

  • Richard L

    Honestly, it does feel like these protests are counter to what we really want. I do understand that we need to do something so that Obama knows, emphatically, that we haven’t forgotten his campaign promises, but I just don’t think this is really the way to go about it. I applaud their efforts but think that we need to focus on getting our Senators and Representatives on our side and working within the system to enact real change.

  • Nicholas

    a few points:

    Andrew makes a lot of sense, too bad his interesting sensible comments get hidden due to low ratings, they’re very sensible,


    i don’t think these portests will change many minds at the top, so barney frank may be right i think,,,,BUT the protests do inspire at least one gay kid out there in kansas to hope and be active and root for these guys because they’re standing up for us.

    so in terms of these protests:
    change legistlation? prob not.
    but change a kid’s life? prob yes.

  • Bill Perdue

    The level of protests against DADT are tiny in comparison to those that occurred after same sex marriage was sabotaged by the rightwing, including Obama, Rick Warrens southern baptists, the catholics and the mormons. They were larger and nationwide, even worldwide.

    And they’re tiny in comparison to the recent March on Washington. But they’re a sign of things to come. Society as a whole is undergoing a vast radicalization because of widespread joblessness, poverty, homelessness, Obama’s wars and the relentless attacks of anti-LGBT bigots. Within the last week or so the AFL-CIO called a very successful anti-looter class rally of over 10,000 trade unionists on Wall Street. This year’s May Day rallies, many supportive of the rights of immigrant and imported workers probably drew over 100,000 in cities across the US.

    It’s safe to say that because of widespread violence fueled by unremitting attacks by christian cultists and a sea change in public opinion in our favor that we’re in the forefront of that radicalization. That trend will continue because of the huge increase of GSA and GLSEN high school groups and LGBT college groups.

    All of that’s working in our favor and setting the stage for transforming the huge LGBT radicalization in thinking into huge actions. When we’re capable of a steady series of massive actions – national. local, regional – with a militant won’t take no for an answer agenda then and only then will be able to repeal Bill Clintons ugly legacy of bigotry and hatred and force legislation that’s far better than the hate crimes bill or ENDA.

  • Cassandra

    Without us niggers would still be on the streets.

  • Rob Moore

    @Cassandra: Well said!

  • jeffree

    No progress in LGB rights will be made until we:
    + Rally friends/family/neighbors/ communities into:
    –understanding the cold hard truth of our struggle for equal rights with employment/ marriage/ adoption / military service etc.
    –with-holding votes and donations from local/ county/ state/ national candidates who do not support our rights
    –getting attention from the local/urban/national press so they know we mean business
    –getting apathetic citizens to *register* to vote and THEN * actually vote*

    The religious right wind battles [e.g. Prop 8] because they mobilize their powerbase to register to vote and to toe the line when they do vote.

    The history of minority civil rights [French Canadians, Black Americans, Sami (Laplander) Norwegians, Aboriginal New Zealanders, etc. shows that BOTH direct action and “behind the scenes” politickling are required to gain equal status. Stating our case in real day-to-day terms to gain popular support cannot be ignored.

    We lgb’s would be foolish not to engage in the array of tactics.

  • jeffree

    oops: “win battles”

  • WalkderDC

    Look at what happened to this post, This post is about people actually getting out and doing something and instead of commenting on them a few people with an agenda posted and the rest of the string was spent arguing with them.

    AndrewW you always complain but never seem to be able to suggest anything

    Marx, you said the gay rights struggle doesn’t compare with the black civil rights struggle, well the black civil rights struggle was different from the struggle of women to gain the vote, both used protesting. Is it insulting to compare the two? No, the only people that say it is are people with an agenda. Blacks could at least marry each other during the 60’s we can’t even do that, so chill out, stop thinking that other people doing something takes away from a different struggle, everybody benefits from better civil rights protection.

  • Lanjier

    The “pop a cork for Obama” strategy was a complete failure. Time to cap off that homophobic spill and start slamming our fist of the table. We are men, not banquet workers, women, not Jan Bradys, Trans, not Betty Boops.

  • Jeremy

    If it’s bloody to get my friends, my boyfriend and countless other gays whom I never see to be treated a normal person, then I’m willing to lose couple ounces of my blood.

  • Kanika ?????

    @Cassandra: Um wow…As a black woman, I take extreme offense to your comments. *smh*

    I’m with Hilarious on this one. The difference between is that the white gay people who predominate the current movement still have skin colour (and often class) privilege while queer people of colour STILL face discrimination in this society. Racism didn’t die with the civil rights movement…Hell it didn’t even die with us having a black president in office!

    In addition- Tell me where GetEqual and co. are at risk for their lives after they’ve chained themselves to the White House gates THREE TIMES? Those who participated in the civil rights movement were not so lucky. Thanks to the laws & protections that are in place today people in this nation can protest and dissent without risk or danger to their lives.

    This society has never been kind to anyone who deviates from the “norm”. However, the struggles are not the same no matter how much y’all try to spin it.

  • Jon

    @All you ppl that hate GetEQUAL: Tell women protests don’t work. Tell blacks protests don’t work. Tell ANYONE that have rights today that protests don’t work!! THEY WORK!!! The only thing is they don’t work by themselves you need strong legal arm and a strong lobby arm. WE HAVE THESE TODAY in the GAY community. What we are doing now with all three arms will work. Pick the one you can best help and HELP them!

  • AndrewW

    @JamieMcG: “Millions of people demanding our equality” means 170 million people or two-thirds of the adult US population.

    A hundred people in DC on a Sunday afternoon is meaningless. Yesterday there were 15 different protests in DC. None were noticed, none made a difference.

    I know you believe that these stunts are helpful, but you haven’t suggested “how” they are helpful to the LGBT Movement. Sooner or later we need to generate support for our movement. We need to convince people to join us. Yelling, marching, demanding, etc., do not change any minds or votes. We don’t need attention, we need support.

    Jonathon Lewis (Progressive Insurance) has wasted a half million dollars on these silly stunts. The idea was that the LGBT Community would follow the “lead” of GetEqual and become inspired by their courage. It didn’t work. We’re not inspired, we are embarrassed. Complaining isn’t courageous, in fact it’s very easy to do.

    If you are going to continue with these stunts, please connect-the-dots for our community. Please provide the rationale for these actions and tell us HOW they are effective or even helpful.

  • AndrewW

    @Jon: It is demeaning to compare our struggle to the Womens Suffrage Movement or Blacks Civil Rights Movement. Suggesting they are the same or even similar is like Barney Frank said “immature and tacky,” and yes, he was talking about GetEqual.

  • tjr101

    It’s comments like the one made by “Cassandra” that makes it difficult if not impossible for there to be support for gay rights in the black community.

  • JamieMcG

    @AndrewW: You really need to speak for yourself when you say “We” are embarrassed. “We” and the majority of people who’ve posted here and on other notices about the rallies are clearly behind the actions of GetEQUAL. YOU may be embarrassed because you don’t understand that change does come from the ground up. And YOU may be embarrassed because you have no idea how to actually take a step forward and lead, but “We” are most certainly not embarrassed.

    Firstly, to expect a quantitative analysis of the effects of a group who has been around for less than three months is stupid. What we can do is make an analysis of the success of the organizations who have been claiming to do this work for the past few decades, which is downright depressing (talk about a waste of money).

    And I think going from 5 people interrupting an ENDA meeting to 2-300 people gathered across the street from the White House chanting, screaming and carrying their signs in the matter of a week is a pretty damn impressive turnaround.

    And as far as leadership goes, who else has been stepping up to do so? Hasn’t been you as far as I can see. And it certainly hasn’t been Joe “donate $5 and you get your very own DADT HRC dog tags” Solmonese. So how can you do anything but applaud the actions of someone who is actually doing something to stand up for YOUR equality? It’s dumbfounding to me to see someone put such blind faith in a politician or two who quite clearly does not have our best interests in mind.

    I got a letter on Thursday from a 17 year old boy in West Virginia who was apologizing that he couldn’t come to the rally. He told me he did the next best thing and came out to his parents and brother and sister. His father is a Baptist preacher and told his son that he wants to find ways of changing people’s minds about LGBT people. If this work that GetEQUAL is doing helped or inspired this kid to come out…it’s absolutely worth every penny spent. That’s quantitative for you.

  • Cassandra

    Post number 50 was written by someone co-opting the name “Cassandra”. It is a pretty shabby trick to try and discredit what I wrote in post 40 by faking a racist post under my id. My guess is that the person posting as “Hilarious” created it.

    Kanika, if you truly think that posts 40 and 50 could be from the same person, then one can only conclude that you are lying about your ethnicity. The difference in cadence, writing style and message is entirely different.

    I suspect, Kanika, that you and TJR101 are either the sock-puppets of the person who created post 50, or associates of that person. If you are not involved, I suggest that you make an honest attempt to refute the points I made in post 40.

    As for your own remarks: “The difference between is that the white gay people who predominate the current movement still have skin colour (and often class) privilege”

    No, that is a fantasy perpetuated by people of color trying to either justify their own prejudice against homosexuals or against white people.

    The whole ‘white priviledge’ notion is a fantasy that is supposedly derived from the idea that racial bias against African Americans intrinsically creates bias for someone else. That is nonsense and irrational. Racial prejudice against people of color is in addition to the obstacles anyone else encounters. It does not mean that no one else experiences any other bias or obstacle, and that anything is simply handed to them as an expression of ‘priviledge’.

    To get a job, for example, one must overcome a number of obstacles – have the right skills, make a good impression, be better than other candidates, etc – and racial discrimination adds to that, but being “the right race” doesn’t guarantee that you’ll get the job; there is no priviledge involved, only one less obstacle.

    For white GLBTQ people, sexual orientation is an obstacle to employment just like race can be. The big difference of course is that employers who use the race hurdle now must be secretive, if caught they can be sued. Not so for GLBTQ people, employers in much of the country can assert without penalty that they discriminate against GLBTQ employees and applicants.

    One of the terrible ironies, and bigotries, that appear whenever the subject of comparing GLBTQ civil rights with AA civil rights, is that some person of color always shows up to tell GLBTQ people what we “really” experience, what our lives are “really” like, and that we aren’t “really” all that oppressed.

    Which is what homophobes do – replace our experiences of oppression with their manufactured reality, to avoid the cold hard truths.

    That dismissive attitude, which so many people of color complain about when it is inflicted on them, is part of why many people of color do not support equality for GLBTQ people.

    Oppression is oppression, no matter who is experiencing it, and people of color are not the only people to be oppressed, nor are they the only people to be enslaved. Just about every people has been enslaved at some point in their history, and just about every people have enslaved others at some point in their history.

  • Cassandra


    If you honestly cannot tell that post 40 and post 50 were written by two different people,

    don’t ever call anyone else an idiot. The irony implosion could be devastating.

    So, are you AndrewW’s sock puppet, or Hilarious’? Which of them works for HRC? Which of them is trying to defend a six figure salary?

    It is interesting that the dirty little trick appeared only after I told AndrewW to get up and actually do something in post 43.

  • Kanika ?????

    *yawns @ Cassandra* You bore me with your long winded posts and puerile nonsensical tripe…Unlike yourself, I have a LIFE and better things to do than to troll some website under a false identity.

    I would address the rest of your pathetic, whiny post, but I got things to do & people to see…Have fun picking fights on the internets! :D

  • Josh

    @JamieMcG: huh? You claim:

    “2-300 people gathered across the street from the White House chanting, screaming and carrying their signs “

    The Advocate reported 100 people. My friend – who was there – said “maybe 100 people.” It seems you are very eager to be an “activist,” but I would suggest you try to at least be honest.

    I’m not “embarrassed” by GetEqual’s actions – I’m ashamed of them. They make us look stupid and childish.

  • Cassandra

    Kanika ????? Princess http://translation.babylon.com/Arabic/to-English

    Since Arabic is written backwards . . .

    Princess Kanika

    Thanks for confirming my suspicion. Your dismissal so strongly suggests complicity that it is essentially a confession. Someone with a genuine point to make would have acknowledged that they’d been misled by someone else’s trick, but someone in on the trick would simply ignore the fact that it had been exposed.

  • JamieMcG

    @Josh/@AndrewW – Andrew, you apparently forgot to sign in and out as a different user before responding.

    If the Tea Party had a million, we can pretty easily claim 200.

    Josh/Andrew – when was the last time you did something for equality that wasn’t A) writing a check to HRC, B) Tipping your straight shirtless bartender or B) Sitting on your laptop bitching while everyone else was actually doing something?

    I see a small handful of people here who bitch and bitch about what GetEQUAL is doing, but hasn’t offered up a single plan or God forbid, actually started enacting a plan to gain our equality. If you don’t like what they’re doing, get off your ass and do something else, cuz you sure as hell ain’t helping here.

  • Rob Moore

    @Rob Moore: Like Cassandra, I did not write this post. Someone is posing as me. I signed off just before the time of this post and was in bed by 0415.

    Whoever pretended to be me praising racist crap is a cowardly piece of scum.

  • Rob Moore

    When I refer to “this post”, I am referring to post 51. I think it is odd posts 50 and 51 appeared after Cassandra and I posted lengthy statements challenging the same post by “Hilarious”.

  • Jon

    @AndrewW: Yes women’s struggle which was helped by the Black struggle for rights are not comparable to our current state of affairs. The point is that tactics used by all civil rights struggles have been the same. 1. Legal (Such as groups like NAACP or Lambda Legal) 2. Lobby groups (Such as HRC or NOW) 3. Demonstration groups to bring attention to the media (Such as GetEQUAL or SCLC) Andrew the struggle of black-Americans and female-Americans was harder and then ours. Yes they deserve more respect then GetEQUAL and TON of more respect. There actions made it possible for us to be able to lead a charge for our rights today.

  • AndrewW


    The tactic of “demanding” and so-called “direct-action,” as employed most recently by GetEqual can and should be held accountable. I have asked for those of you encouraging this behavior to provide some rationale, for their effectiveness. Explain to us HOW these publicity stunts actually change any minds or votes. That’s your task – explain.

    Many of us see these stunts as counterproductive. They are basically “public complaining.” They cannot even be your idea of ‘demanding,” because demanding without a real threat, is just complaining.

    GetEqual is wasting a half million dollars “demanding” and nobody cares. That doesn’t suggest that their motives are not sincere or honorable, but it does question their effectiveness. That’s a fair question and GetEqual should answer it.

    Recent polling data suggests that 94% of the American population is aware of our struggle. It’s NOT a secret. Many people are doing effective things to get people to SUPPORT us. That is done with conversation, not intimidation. It is done by risking rejection at work, at school, at home or in our neighborhoods.

    It takes a lot more courage to talk to neighbors, co-workers, friends and even strangers than it does to demonstrate. The brave members of the LGBT Community are reaching out and finding straight supporters, people willing to join us and advocate for our full equality. No yelling required. No fifteen minutes of fame, but very real, sustainable results.

    We are making progress in America by encouraging people to join us. GetEqual threatens that very real progress by simply complaining and trying to get media coverage.

    You (and your GetEqual friends) should be asking yourselves why you stunts have been summarily dismissed by the media and they haven’t generated participation. That fact should be very telling. Don’t get caught up with romanticizing the idea of becoming an activist, just ask WHY you are either being dismissed or ignored by the media and the LGBT Community. It is an important question.

  • Cassandra

    “I think it is odd posts 50 and 51 appeared after Cassandra and I posted lengthy statements challenging the same post by “Hilarious”.”

    And Hilarious predicted that someone would use a derogatory tern for people of color:
    “Whenever an issue with gay rights or anyone else’s rights come up the N word is openly used to make a point among other things that are just plain disrespectful and I can’t deny that it bothers me because it really does.” Post 35.

    Not only is a lie by exaggeration, but it appears to have become a self-fulfilled prophecy.


    Just what exactly have you done lately? Other than criticize people who actually are doing something?

    Gay Inc is in trouble, in danger of being cut off from the feeding trough as GLBTQ people return to the strategy of visibility that has worked, not only for us in the past, but for women, people of color, and other oppressed people.

    Sometime down the road, we’re going to see an almost buried story about how someone at HRC, etc. was let go for ‘inappropriate use of company equipment’ because they posted anti-GetEqual diatribes all over the gay blogs. And then there’ll be an even smaller story about that same person getting hired with a raise by one of the other Gay Inc groups. And we’ll be expected to ignore the obvious corruption.

  • Hilarious

    Wow you really are pathetic. So because I refused to respond to your obnoxiously long posts you decided to make a ton of offensive posts and say I did it?

    And then what? The police haul me off to jail? A legion of Queerty commenters will track me down and burn down my house?

    What do you stand to gain by pretending to be attacked and playing the victim online? This is what you’re 3rd or 4th attempt at trying to bait other commenters into thinking I’m doing something to you?

    Grow up.

  • Cassandra


    This additional demonstration of abusiveness from you – the insults and condescension, have the result of adding to suspicion, rather than alleviating.

    See, while I am careful to avoid name-calling, you appear to rely on it a great deal, which means it is much more likely that you would post the pejorative in post 50, than I would. You’ve already called people other names, so there’s no reason to think you’d refrain from using the N word either.

    The fantasy “because I refused to respond” indicates the very kind of childishness and dishonesty implicit in spoofing someone else’s id.

    Your fantasy of future punishment comes across as the lurid fears of a guilty conscience, while the cadence and vocabulary of your posts is remarkably similar to that used by whoever composed the fraudulent posts.

    Generally, people who dismiss lengthy posts for their length resort to childish tricks, like using spoofing someone’s id.

    And then there’s your id – one that indicates that this is all a big joke to you, that you find civil equality for GLBTQ people to be a laughing matter.

  • Hilarious

    You really are nuts. Do you read the drivel you post?

  • AndrewW

    @Cassandra: It’s not enough to do “something,” it has to be effective. Just because many of us understand “direct actions” and expressions of anger and frustration are not useful, it doesn’t mean we are not involved. Many of us are very involved. We’re actually trying to figure our how to win – not fight.

    A better response about questions about GetEqual and other protest/demand groups would be to provide some evidence or rationale for the effectiveness. If they are helpful, tell us how.

  • JamieMcG


    And I have explained to you, now twice, that asking for a quantitative analysis of the changes GetEQUAL has brought about after a few months in existence is ridiculous. It’s like asking how the outing of Ricky Martin affected the LGBT movement towards equality.

    You’re also completely wrong about our “stunts” being “summarily dismissed” by the media. One of the first major appearances by GetEQUAL was the Barbara Boxer fundraiser in California…which was a story on CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, and yes, even Fox News. Outside of that, no, there hasn’t been a lot of coverage outside full coverage with video and photos on pretty much every gay blog and media source available.

    I also told you about a young man who personally emailed me and told me he came out to his family since he couldn’t make it to the rally this weekend…you know…doing the same exact thing you claim to be the only thing that’s going to make a difference. Yet you choose to ignore that when you reply to my post.

    I’ve come out. And today, I encouraged another young person to do the same. I’ve talked about equality to every person in my life and continue to encourage others to do so.

    You continually claim that GetEQUAL’s actions are detremental to the movement – how about you tell us exactly how you can prove your obnoxiously uneducated idea is true?

    And to follow up, to ask for a 5th time over the course of several posts. What is it YOU are doing for the movement (outside of bitching about everyone else’s actions towards equality)?

  • Markie-Mark

    @Hilarious: Mild Discomfort? Tell that to Mathew Shephard. You are sickening.

  • Bill Perdue

    It’s useless to argue with AndrewW because the only thing he wants it to be seen making a big scene. He crave attention and to get noticed he’s mastered the art of being an over-dramatic contrarian.

    His first scene was to stress the importance of kowtowing to the cults and asking cultists to be nice.

    His second scene was to lie about the NEW, the March on Washington and lie about its sponsors, especially Cleve Jones, who he continues to slander. When the NEW turned out to be an unqualified success he lied about its size and denied its importance.

    His third scene was to badmouth HRC, a cheap stunt since most of what they do is aimed at fundraising not promoting our equality. Now, ever the contrarian how he’s joining them in attacking participants in these small zaps.

    Everyone who addresses him has the same two bits of advice – stop whining and do something or at least propose something real. That’s usually followed by a heartfelt plea that he STFU.

    If you argue with this bizarre little troll who has as many as twenty aliases he’ll continue to think he’s important.

    He’s not.

  • Hilarious

    @Markie-Mark: You clearly didn’t understand my post at all if you think that’s what that line meant.

  • AndrewW

    @JamieMcG: Barney Frank and others have concluded that GetEqual is “childish and immature” and that their actions “do not change any minds.” His words expressed what most of us understand about these silly stunts – they are not helpful or effective.

    The media has chosen to ignore these stunts because of the same understanding.

    Nobody showed up for the “massive rally” planned for May 2nd. If they did believe it was helpful, they would have been there. there are 2 million members of the LGBT community with a couple hours of DC – only 100 people showed up.

    The heckling of Obama did get some coverage, but it was mostly the President laughing at us for being “foolish.”

    Nobody has been able to provide some reasonable rationale for these expressions of anger and frustration. GetEqual has a responsibility to provide that or they will fade away (if they haven’t already).

    Many people are working very hard to create a solution not just cheap tricks to get attention. We don’t need attention, we need results. I am funding that effort and participating. We don’t reject accountability, we embrace it. It’s time to figure out how to win, not just fight.

  • JamieMcG

    @AndrewW: Andrew, when are you going to answer my question? Other than writing a check to the HRC which is admittedly (according to an important private media source I spoke to at the rally) terrified of GetEQUAL and its counterparts, what have you done? Did you make your $5 contribution to get your very own HRC DADT Dog Tags, or your Repeal DADT Now tote bag? How is capitalizing on our inequality helping us? How is your sitting on your ass and bitching about the people ACTUALLY standing up for your equality making a difference? How is your funding another night at the 4 Seasons for Joe Solmonese ACTUALLY helping this movement?

  • Cassandra

    Having been asked “Just what exactly have you done lately? Other than criticize people who actually are doing something?”

    AndrewW writes: “It’s not enough to do “something,” ”

    So the answer to the question is “Nothing.” Andrew has done nothing.

    Doing something is better than doing nothing. Frankly, the something that Choi and GetEqual has been doing is much better than the nothing that HRC has accomplished with the millions and millions of dollars it has been given over the years.

    How much of that has AndrewW collected? Enquiring minds want to know.


    Are you planning to ever do something? Besides bad-mouth people who are doing something, that is.

  • Cassandra


    “If you argue with this bizarre little troll who has as many as twenty aliases he’ll continue to think he’s important.

    He’s not.”

    Perhaps AndrewW could throw a million sock puppet march. That would be something.

  • Cassandra


    “If you argue with this bizarre little troll who has as many as twenty aliases he’ll continue to think he’s important.

    He’s not.”

    Perhaps AndrewW could throw a million sock puppet march. That would be something.

  • Cassandra


    “If you argue with this bizarre little troll who has as many as twenty aliases he’ll continue to think he’s important

    He’s not.”

    Perhaps AndrewW could throw a million sock puppet march. That would be something.

  • Cassandra


    If you argue with this bizarre little troll who has as many as twenty aliases he’ll continue to think he’s important.

    He’s not.”

    Perhaps AndrewW could throw a million sock puppet march. That would be something.

  • Cassandra


    “If you argue with this bizarre little troll who has as many as twenty aliases he’ll continue to think he’s important.

    He’s not.

    Perhaps AndrewW could throw a million sock puppet march. That would be something.

  • Cassandra


    “If you argue with this bizarre little troll who has as many as twenty aliases hell continue to think he’s important.

    He’s not.”

    Perhaps AndrewW could throw a million sock puppet march. That would be something.

Comments are closed.