leaving salt lake

The Mormon Church Couldn’t Cure Justin Utley. So He Packed Up His Guitar and Left


Immediately afterward, Utley began working on Runaway, a 2005 solo record influenced by his two years playing in Christian rock band. Though Utley says he best expresses himself with folky acoustic rock, it’s unfortunate he’s so married to it’s conventions. Far from catharsis, his songs end up sounding the same with vague lyrics that never specifically mention his personal experiences. For example, in “Let Me Go” he sings, “I was never yours and you were never mine… I gave you my reasons, and I gave you my heart. I guess you never understood that part.” He could be speaking about the Mormon church, a parent, or ex-lover. Even his most revealing song, “Shades of Gray” (a song he wrote while still at Evergreen), has angry and heart-aching lyrics that his voice fails to match.

“They say, ‘Ex-Mormons can leave the church, but they can never leave it alone.’ But I think it’s the church that doesn’t leave ex-Mormons alone … especially with things like Prop 8,” Utley says.

He moved to New York City in 2005, and that’s where the activism kicked in. The Prop 8 ballot in California energized him to start making phone calls against the amendment, volunteering for AIDS walks, and playing guitar at PRIDE festivals nationwide. He’s currently developing his second album and rehearsing to play the lead in Our Country, a Hedwig-style musical comedy about an outed country rock star (based on Kenny Chesney).

“Trying to change the Mormon Church from inside of Utah is like trying to take on the Catholic Church from Rome,” Utley said. “The [federal] government had to force Utah to stop practicing polygamy. The government had to pass laws to allow interracial marriage. [In Utah,] the force of change always comes from outside. Instead of trying to change Utah from within, I’m trying to change the world around it.”

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  • Rick

    What a great story and what a hot, talented man.

  • alan brickman

    very hot and hopefully a cover story for the advocate…guys??

  • Mountainword

    Yay for him! I also renounced Mormonism, and yesterday my partner of seven years and I celebrated the letter. The letter I speak of is the one stating that I have officially been removed from the LDS church’s membership.

    I’ve not felt so liberated since I came out of the closet!

  • Fitz

    I am glad he is finding his way- and yes, he is very attractive. Lets hope that he is building a new family. That’s one of the best things about being gay, aside from the great sex, is the ability to form a family that really works for you.

  • Brian

    HE gets it. “Trying to change the Mormon Church from inside of Utah is like trying to take on the Catholic Church from Rome,” Utley said.

    Now, if our gay clergy had the same courage. Stand up for change – or leave.

  • AlwaysGay

    I’ll take him. :) He is insanely hot. Religion needs to die. It’s fake and oppressive.

  • AlanInSLC


    How exactly did you remove yourself from the church. I want my name removed as well. I’ve been anti-religion and especially anti-mormon for YEARS and haven’t followed through to have my name removed due to lack of information. Any suggestions where to start?

  • Mark in Dallas

    The LDS Church’s ideology/theology is far more important to them than what happens in the lives of their members as a result of following their ideology/theology.

    They accept no responsibility for fall-out of their misguided teachings or for their past actions (like electric-shock therapy *treatments* at BYU) toward faithful men who wanted to conform and be acceptable to the church and their version of God. Their lack of compassion is appalling. They simply state, “We no longer emphasis that.”

    As for ex-members leaving them alone, I have gladly done so. There are many places of worship with a “come as you are” message. I hope those struggling with the results of living a closeted life in the LDS Church will find a place where they can be themselves.

  • Jaroslaw

    Ok, I like a hot guy as much as the next Gay man/Straight woman; but I’ve been reading Queerty for about two years now and these sad stories (and they are sad – I’m not making any fun here) almost always seem to be about some really gorgeous muscular guy. At least half the comments alway say “wow, he’s hot, I’ll take him.”

    So does this mean if you have a sad story and you’re not so good looking you don’t count?

  • Chitown Kev


    yeah, there’s actually another thread that is asking the very same question; does the face you put on the injustices to GLBTs matter?

    Depends on the demographic you are trying to reach, really. Queerty is no different in that respect.

  • edgyguy1426

    @Sickofitall: Is all behaviour a choice? For your information (and because only I can answer this for myself) I didn’t choose it. It just is. Not changin. Don’t want to. I’m left handed too. Didn’t choose it, not changin. Don’t want to.
    And as to the words of his bishop, well that was just sad, but also telling, because it proves how religion is now even losing any semblance of compassion that it had left. The man went for consolation and comfort and he got fire and brimstone. Nice.

  • Fitz

    @Jaroslaw: Your point about how attractive people get more press & sympathy is valid.. (but this is not a sad story. It’s one about someone who has grown.) It’s not just us fags who do it, though. Studies show that attractive doctors and nurses are trusted more by their patients. Attractive people get paid more. We are visual, sexual preoccupied beasts… but it’s not just us.

  • Johanna

    @Mark in Dallas:
    A friend has a professor who went through that shock program as an undergrad at BYU, desperately trying to become straight so he could marry his girlfriend. It wasn’t until he went through this horrible program (for those of you who don’t know, it involved putting a device around the penis that measured circumference, i.e. how turned on you were, and you’d get shocked while looking at pornographic pictures of men if you got turned on. They’d also do the same shock treatments minus the penial device to try to use a really bad form of punishment – associate nude men with shocks) that he moved and came out. He’s never really gotten over it – never been able to maintain a normal relationship, and doesn’t trust therapists because it was “therapists” who put him through it.
    I also live in an area that’s heavily Mormon populated. One time they told me I was going to hell because I told them to get away from my apartment. I also love how they try and pass themselves off as Christian, because they actually don’t believe Jesus was the Son of God but just a prophet, which is funny, since believe in Jesus as the Son of God is kind of a requirement if your Christian.
    Thank-you, and I’ll get off my soapbox now :D

  • Geoff M

    Great story, and regardless of whether he’s hot or not….inspirational to so many in mormon land.

  • max12


    Welcome to the gay world. That is exactly what it means. If the same Mormon story was posted with a photo of a guy who isn’t as “goodlooking” by gay standards you bet that not as many people would click on it and definitely most people wouldn’t sympathize for him. It seems the better looking you are the sadder it is when you suffer. At least in the gay world.

  • Swimmer - Chicago

    @ Max12
    Sorry Max – but its the same in the straight world – if you are goodlooking straight or gay – people tend to care more about it. Of course you are pure, so beauty is in the eye of the beholder and you find a hunchback attractive.

  • scott ny'er

    Terrible experience but it seems like he grew from it. So, I hope things continue to work out for him.

    And yeah, to all those who made a point that the good looking peeps, get better service, etc, no matter what world you live in. Hetero, homo, black, white, etc.

  • Jaroslaw

    #15 uh, not quite.

    I don’t want to paint with too broad a brush, but when I was playing straight, it was much easier to get a date with a girl. They were significantly less concerned about looks & clothes than most Gay men.

    Now, is this at least partly because there are far more girls to date since the ratio is 90% straight to 10% Gay approximately? Or as the women complain – there is a shortage of men? I don’t know. But I’m pretty sure most studies say women are more about emotion and men are more visually stimulated which seems to be borne out in my life experience.

  • Steve

    I’m sorry to have to report that this article states a lot of things about the LDS religion and Evergreen that just ain’t so. I won’t go into a line-by-line argument about what was distorted or simply mistaken, because I’m sure your readers don’t want to read that kind of response. But I think even the person you are writing about who has left Mormonism is probably uncomfortable with some of what you have described.

    The fact is, people are not stupid or unthinking or insincere just because they don’t see things the way you do. There are a lot of very fine individuals who are sincerely happy in their choice to leave homosexuality out of their lives. They aren’t repressed or in denial, but rather finding deep meaning in the way they live their lives. We love and appreciate our gay friends and wish them well when they make sincere choices for their own lives. We see many problems in the ubiquitous gay lifestyles, and that’s why we won’t choose that for ourselves, but we certainly wish you well.

    Daniel, you wrote a cute article that reinforces people’s false preconceptions about an organization of millions of people who don’t see the world the way you do, but it wasn’t accurate or fair.

  • Tonyboy


    I agree with you bud. When I dated women I had no problem dating nice, smart and attractive (this is subjective) women. Since coming out over 10 years ago I can’t say the same for men. I’m a smart, funny, have a great group of friends/family and financially secure. In the straight world I’m a catch. In the gay world I hardly ever date even though I go to functions, parties and go online. It’s not for lack of trying. Straight people certainly don’t put the same emphasis on the physical as gays seem to do.

  • nikko

    MAX12, what you wrote applies to evreybody regardless of sexuality. Beauty is attractive to everyone, especially men.

  • Republican


    If Evergreen or whatever works for you, fine, but the truth is that it doesn’t change a damn thing about your biology. You are still gay. You’re just able to live your life without acting or thinking too much about your sexual or romantic desires. That’s your right, but it’s not fair to the thousands of young gay mormons out there to expect them all to be happy about living loveless lives. And it’s not fair to the mormon women who end up with closet-cases for husbands that cheat on them behind their backs.

  • Jaroslaw

    #18 Steve – I settle for one or two quick things that were distorted or “things that just ain’t so” – the article wasn’t that long – it should take too much to rebut it.

    And Tonyboy, thanks.

  • Jaroslaw

    or maybe I should have said where do you live Tonyboy?

    Nikko – not that you can’t add your 2 cents but no one is saying beautiful people don’t have it easier Gay OR Straight. Take another look at the comments here. :)

  • Jaroslaw

    #11 Fitz – should have responded to you earlier – yes, it is true I’ve seen the TV documentaries about good looking people less often convicted, the “contrived” situations filmed undercover where the attractive girl stranded motorist gets many more offers of help from male passer’s by than the plain girl. It is ridiculous and you’re also right, it is everyone not just us Gays who admire beauty.

    But if we are victims of stereotypes, shouldn’t we try to transcend that same attitude?

  • Daniel Villarreal

    @Steve: When Justin and I talked about his experiences for this article, he made sure to say that he felt comfortable sharing his personal details. I’ve let him know that the article’s posted and have invited him to participate in the comments.

    As for distortions, mistakes, accuracy, and fairness; this is a feature profile, not a news article. I understand the need for journalistic objectivity, but collecting contrary accounts wouldn’t have disproved Justin’s experiences or furthered our understanding of his musical journey. It would only have blurred the story’s focus, which is about Justin, not Evergreen.

    Though Justin’s story may not be par for the course, after talking with several other SLC LDS-church members and ex-gay participants, I found it entirely plausible and ran it without additional comment. But I’m happy to hear anything you think I or Mr. Utley got wrong.

    Accurate portrayals of ex-gay ministries can be difficult for any writer, seeing as they’re often shrouded in contractual non-disclosure agreements, priveleged/confidential conversations, and are so controversial. Most have a strong religious component and all have been called ineffective and even potentially harmful by the American Psychological Association.

  • Rick

    As an attractive , good looking, muscular gay man with disposable income, I want to chime on as well.

  • Jason

    Fat and/or ugly people who bitch about being fat and/or ugly should get lipo or plastic surgery or a gym membership.

  • Fitz

    @Jason: No. The cure for that kind of ugly is more likely to be found at a therapist office. If a cure can be found.

  • Fitz

    @Jaroslaw: Yes we should try. Yes, we are human, and it’s a hard struggle. I always like to think that I am above it, but I wonder if I tip cuter waiters more, etc. It’s a constant discipline to be humanistic.

  • Jaroslaw

    Jason dear, I sincerely hope you never get in a car accident and lose a limb or have a disfiguring disease. You will be shunned because of your “ugliness” by your shallow circle of narcissists and you will not have any idea why.

    Perhaps fat can be cured by a gym membership, but even plastic surgery cannot make everyone “beautiful”. It is at times difficult not being one of the “in” crowd because of money or beauty, but you are truly a sad case making the comments you did.

  • Jaroslaw

    Fitz, I didn’t mean YOU personally should transcend, (which in itself is admirable) I meant Gays as a group and/or our institutions. It is like when a historically discriminated group acts to discriminate another group… that kind of thing I was talking about.

  • Fitz

    @Jaroslaw: We, as a group, aren’t there yet…. look at the striation and lack of unity. Are you hot enough for this bar? Are you big enough? White enough? Wealthy enough? We (in general, as a group) have introjected the bully- not transcended it at all. I don’t know how to help us get there- either.

  • Johnny

    @Steve: simply because someone sees things differently doesn’t make them correct, or make their views valid. You’ll have a lot of history to revise if you persist in that. That’s one of the major problems that the Democratic “majority” will never understand, that no, not everyone always deserves a seat at the table. (I’ll resist going Godwin here.) Not every baby is beautiful. Not anyone can be President. And not every opinion is worth an audience.

    As for the general consensus here about pretty people, could we agree that being biased is one thing, but being blind to that bias is the actual problem? Then you must look in the mirror, and ask yourself if you are part of the problem, or part of the solution.

  • Jason


    My attempt at satire, which may or may not be genius, obviously failed with you.

  • Tonyboy


    Jason, I think you are confused. From what I can see on here I don’t read complaints about being fat and ugly. I’m saying that I am attractive. I work out 4 to 5 days a week and I am “built” by gay standards, but I don’t look like an A&F model or have the traditional look that most gays (who also don’t have the look) aspire to date. I think of myself as a pretty regular guy. If I were straight I would have been settled down years ago. I guess I’m saying that gay men are all wanting something that really can’t have. Let’s be honest most people are average, but in the gay world the average doesn’t even seem to be happy with average guys. They all want “hotter”. Gays don’t seem to care if a guy is smart, accomplished, kind or funny. A guy can have all these attributes and not be the gay physical ideal and he will be ignored in our “community” yet a guy who is physically good looking doesn’t need to have anything else to offer. Isn’t it more of a testament to the kind of man one is based on what one has accomplished, one’s intellect, one’s kindness rather than a random roll of the DNA dice and being gifted with good looks?

  • Jaroslaw

    Jason – I don’t know how anyone would get that you were going for satire esp. with the word “bitch” in it, and Fitz & Tony answered you also, so it wasn’t just me who missed it. But thanks for your explanation, and “sorry if I offended” wouldn’t be completely out of line to ask from you or would it?

  • Jason

    So hot people should be punished?

  • Jason

    Inject some fat into that man, take a cheesegrater to his face and lop him off at the knees! He is to good looking, fit and tall!

  • Glennmcgahee

    This story is repeated daily throughout the world. Yea, but this guy is good-looking so he gets a story. Sad but true.

  • Swimmer - Chicago

    @ Jason
    Fat and Ugly people should be burned at the stake! The would work like Obama death panels.

  • donkeytrot69

    Justin got a story not because he’s hunky, but because he used his experience to create something beautiful for the larger community. It’s sad that you’re so fixated on his looks rather than the details of his story.

    If you’re so wound-up about someone less attractive getting a story for a change, why don’t you pitch a story idea to Queerty about someone who’s doing something worthwhile with their experience instead of just bitching about how this one hot guy got some well-deserved recognition? Jealous queens.

  • Jason



    What about Evergreen and the Church’s history do you think were false in this article? I went to Evergreen in Salt Lake, and have heard of Justin through his music and other interviews. The jerk off sessions? Yeah, they happened. Not everyone did it, but for the most part it did (including me). Guys would hook up within the group and never talk about it in therapy.


  • Sherri K

    I understand about the lyrics being slightly hazy, but I think its to appeal to a broader audience instead of being too specific that only a small number of people can relate. Though, I think whatever angst the reviewer felt was lacking in his voice is more than made up for with the momentum he is using to “spread the word” of equality.

    Rock on Justin. Can’t wait to hear the new stuff.


  • Jason


    I’m sorry if you are fat or ugly.

  • ProfessorVP

    @Jaroslaw: @Jaroslaw: Guilty. If the guy in the picture looked like, say, Screech from Saved By the Bell, yeah, I probably would have passed.

  • Jaroslaw

    Thanks for being honest prof!

    Now Jason, I see you baited me three times to answer. Are you taking a class in how to be obnoxious? Are you bored and that is why you keep putting things in that I didn’t say like “should good looking people be punished?” and rotten things like “sorry if you’re fat and ugly”? (for the record yes)

    Well, so much for trying to raise the level of discussion. Go back to your cave, no point in trying to improve anything. Why worry about hetero-haters when we have Gay people like you bringing down the Gay community?

  • AlwaysGay

    You NEVER see these discussions about looks when the article is about heterosexual males. If a gay man dares to work out and maintain good grooming/ hygiene, WATCH OUT! Because there are a ton of jealous gay men waiting to bring him and any other gay man like him down with a pity party/ blame game. These jealous gay men know that working out will help their dating success yet they are too lazy to try. These jealous gay men know that good grooming and proper hygiene will help their dating success yet they are too lazy or too wrapped up in whether they won’t appear masculine to try. These jealous gay men have no problem when heterosexual males work out and maintain good grooming/ hygiene. What they want is all other gay men to be fat and dirty like them so they can’t get dates or have terrible sex just like them meanwhile fantasizing about heterosexual males because they believe heterosexual males are the keepers of manhood and everything they desire. Self-hatred and anti-gay hatred is what is behind these constant discussions about looks.

  • WTF?

    @Mountainword: This is in no way an attack, I’m simply ignorant of how this works. Why would you need a “letter”? Do they have you in some sort of contractual obligation? I would think you just open the door, flip ’em the bird, and never look back. Why would you need them to “remove” you from anything. Please explain further (as this poster should have) as to why that is important.

  • Fitz

    @WTF?: The armchair shrink in me says: he has some emotional investment in them. Think of a break up. Sometimes you just say “fuck you” and take back your key, but sometimes you go over there and rip up any photos of the two of you, any evidence he ever knew you. In the latter case, I would say that stuff is still needing to churn. This is ALL a guess. I don’t know from Mormon.

  • Jaroslaw

    Always Gay – I’ve read a lot of good things by you, but your post above seems pretty negative. If you’re addressing that to me then please say so. No where in my posts have I advocated punishing anyone for good looks, nor am I jealous.

    It is fact that people trust good looking people more, they are less often convicted of crimes, I could go on – in short our society is looks obsessed. Good looks are not the only thing in life. A very good article that escapes me now says we probably wouldn’t even had some of our very best presidents in the past if television had been around, because they weren’t photogenic.

    Just something you might want to consider, if you can get off the “jealousy soapbox” for 30 seconds.

  • Jaroslaw

    Fitz & WTF – the “letter” is simply a letter sent by the Mormon church officially informing them their membership is terminated.

    Seeing as how important and tight knit (and tightly wound) they seem to be, I think this letter brings closure to the recipient. It also would be “notice” in case there was some kind of error. Promises to pay money to churches (Pledges, building repair drives etc.) are not legally binding so it is hard to see how anything else would be.

  • TI-EL

    While you may give up on certain people,I implore you not to give up on God. People use God for a lot of things, but true believers no God and hate don’t mix. I hope while leaving the moromon church ( which is a stretch to say is Christian) i hope he found another branch Christ he could belong to.

  • AlwaysGay

    @Jaroslaw: I addressed everyone.

  • Roman

    @Johanna: Johanna, I am currently writing a book entitled Latter Gay Saints due out next year and was wondering if you will contact me at [email protected]

  • Roman

    For that matter any gay men or woman who would like to share their experience about being gay and Mormon is welcome to contact me. I went underground as a journalist in the Mormon Church and Evergreen and i can testify to what Justin says in the article. Just as BYU is the Lord’s University, Evergreen is the Lord’s gay bar. I can bare testimony to that I have have never been Mormon. [email protected]

  • Jaroslaw

    Well Alwaysgay, I can’t believe that is all you have to say.

    You must be impersonating the real Alwaysgay because he’s never been so crass before to promote unkind stereotypes: just because a person isn’t bone thin doesn’t mean they are unhygienic or not well groomed or that all/most have terrible sex. What a small minded nasty attitude to take – when the predominant thought here is simply there is more to life than looks.

    How can you be ok with good looking people getting a job faster, getting away with crimes more and all the other things that I and others mentioned? I’m not saying make changing it your personal crusade to change things, but bandying about ridiculous charges of “anti gay hatred is behind (apparently any opinion that dissents with yours) about looks?” Get real.

  • Jason


    Get over it.

    If a random quote by a random queer on a random gay site can send you into a tizzy, then perhaps you have other issues to address.

  • Jaroslaw

    Jason – this is my last cat & mouse exchange, which you really seem to like.

    But enough of your nonsense.

    Most people here were having a thoughtful discussion about a very sensitive issue and you played the provocateur (do you even know what that means?) and then recoil with a faux innocence, accusing others of having issues when they call you on your shit.

  • edgyguy1426

    @Steve: Dude, thinkaboutit! Evergrren need never exist if it weren’t for other people telling these gay people they’re ‘wrong’ to begin with. If people are just fine with who they are and other people accept them as such,you wouldn’t need a program like this. Unrelated: bought the CD today from iTunes, it’s actually pretty good! Queerty: think of this as my morning aural, cuz I used to buy a lot of music on your recommendation.

  • AlwaysGay

    @Jaroslaw: There is more to life than looks, definitely. Discriminating against someone is housing, justice or occupation is wrong. However selecting a mate or date who is not a slob is ok.

  • Muscato

    First and foremost, congratulations to Justin for getting himself out of the Realms of the Sky Wizard.

    And what a nice benefit for him – and us – that he’s a handsome man. And I say that as a short, fat, middle-aged person with a fabulous partner, a good love life, and a little scorn both for people who think about appearances above all and those who can’t enjoy beauty for its own sake. Balance in all things, but my own preference is for those of us who err on the side of a healthy dose of laziness, foie gras, and Champagne…

  • Jason




    I am Mormon, LDS, a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, or whatever you want to call me.

    I am sooooooo sorry for the way that Bro. Utley was treated by his Bishop. I’m sure that it’s been very well paraphrased in this story but if that’s the nuts and bolts of it, it was wrong.

    I’ll have to admit that I don’t know what homosexuality really is!? I don’t think anyone in the world knows. This causes a great deal of confusion within religion and within the minds of those who are feeling these same sex attractions.

    All I know is that I too have weaknesses (sorry if you may not feel that homosexuality is a weakness) that are generally preached against in all religions. I don’t understand them, they are hard to overcome, and I tackle them one at a time.

    I can only imagine though how difficult it is for gay men and women. I can’t imagine trying to suppress the types of feelings I have towards women. But then again I have to ALL THE TIME! I’m involved in a committed marriage relationship and chose all the time to be faithful to this one person instead of choosing to follow my instincts and feelings and have multiple women lovers.

    Life is about choice and mastering self control. Someone born by a cocaine addict has to resist, all of their life, the desires for that high they had in the womb. But that’s a choice they make and deal with every day.

    It’s not about Evergreen, The LDS Church, nor our Bishops. It’s about Christ and our personal relationship with him and seeking his help to overcome our trials. We will fail and OFTEN! That’s part of the plan for our growth. There is always hope in Christ despite our failures. That’s why he gave his life for ALL of us! Not to send us to hell but to lift us to him.

    We need to be sure not to rationalize nor justify those things that are against our Father’s rules. Does God love us all equally? YES! He knows us all and will help us overcome, despite our weaknesses and despite when we fall.

    Now it’s up to us to choose.

  • K. Coletrane

    Former Mormon here. I was excommunicated from the LDS Church many years ago for “conduct unbecoming a Christian.” In my case specifically, for engaging in homosexual activity.
    I harbor no ill feelings about the Church. Depspite my experience
    I think the LDS Church has slowly begun to see things from a more compassionate position. Churches and thier members grow and understand things differntly as time passes. It’s that way with everything, really.
    I’ve always been treated with compassion and understanding by the Church.
    A long way to go yet…but at least it’s progress.

  • Sisyphus

    @I AM MORMON: You are a mentally challenged person, and certainly no saint, except of the arrogant, self-described type. No, it’s not at all about Christ, or whichever deity you and your mob choose this century, it’s about the ageless total disrespect for your fellow human, who you don’t/won’t/can’t understand, and intentionally spend your time, energy and money to demean. It’s about not being able to live, and let live. It’s about being a judgmental bstard, and you actually believed it when some other human told you that was a good way to waste your life.

    My mother taught me there were two ways to have the biggest house in town — you can build onto yours, or tear someone else’s down.

    And as Stephen F. Roberts would say to you, “I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you discount all the other possible gods, you will understand why I discount yours.”

    Go Justin, you rock.


    Re: Sisyphus

    You claim I’m:

    1. Mentally challenged
    2. No Saint
    3. Arrogant
    4. A Mob follower
    5. A Bastard
    6. Wasting My Life
    7. Tearing “you” down.

    You were able to conjure up all of that hate and disrespect inside you from my post? You call me judgmental and then post what you did? Your assumptions of me (1-6) along with assuming that I donated money to anti-gay causes show that you are as apt to jump to conclusions of me as a skinhead is toward the gay lifestyle. Well, I guess every side has it’s extremes.

    I’m not asking anyone to religiously believe in what I believe, but this was not only an article about Justin but about the LDS church. So it was within my rights to mention that his Bishop was wrong and for me to share my religious feelings on the matter. My post had nothing to do with your atheism and that is a separate debate. If in fact you are atheist then I can understand some of your comments toward my posting. I’d be willing to bet that Justin would not agree with your obtuse views of who I am though.

    God aside. I do have compassion toward homosexuals and their uphill battle.

    Along side my LDS beliefs I believe in:

    1. Medical benefits for gay couples
    2. Beneficiary rights for gay couples
    3. Anti-discrimination in the housing sector (renting and leasing issues).
    4. Civil Unions, etc

    I’m not trying to prove anything by telling you this. Just tone it down a bit. You don’t even know me.

  • Jaroslaw

    #61 Alwaysgay – I don’t disagree with most of what you said – you’re surely free to pick whatever kind of boyfriend you want. But if we worship looks on a romantic level, can we instantly turn that off when we address issues of employment/justice/housing? Available evidence is proving that we can’t.

    And here you go again though with the “slob” remark. There are many people if not most who weigh more than 150 lbs. who are NOT slobs. Fat & slob, fat & dirty, fat & lazy do not always go together.

    But keep trying….

  • Michael vdB

    That is very true I find. You can walk away from the faith that you grew up with and has been a part of your life, but you can never fully leave it. It has and always will be apart of who you are and what made you the person you are today. Sometimes I curse it, sometimes I hate it, but other times I am glad it happened because I am stronger in who I am as a gay person.

  • Patrick Garies

    @K. Coletrane: How do you equate excommunication with “compassion and understanding”. They decided that your transgression was so serious that they needed to sever ties with you entirely. That sounds more like rejection and denial rather than compassion and understanding.

    And “more compassionate position”? Is there any evidence whatsoever that you can point to that the CJCLDS’ stance toward the LGBT community is softening? They still seem to be funding anti-gay initiatives.

  • nikko

    But you still believe homosexuality is a sin or weaknress, don’t you, I AM MORMOM?

  • Sherri K


    When the church stated they supported medical benefits for gay couples, beneficiary rights for gay couples, anti-discrimination in the housing sector, and civil unions, it was because the church was smack in the middle of the news, trying to ward off the extremely bad press because of their big involvement in the Prop 8 push. And SINCE then (now that Prop 8 is over) guess what the Mormon controlled state legislature has passed when Equality Utah and other lawmakers presented those bills that the church supposedly supported? NONE OF THEM. And the church declines further comment.

    It disgusts me to think of all those families in Utah that thought the church was actually “softening” its views, when it was obviously all a PR stunt.

  • Cyndy

    I was so fortunate to have had a bishop with a gay daughter to counsel me. My daughter had just tried to kill herself. She thought everyone hated her because she was gay. She had been molested by a “boyfriend”, A classic case of date rape. My bishop simply told me to love my daughter all the more.
    Maybe i am naive, but whether your child is gay or not the bottom line is that you love them! God has told us time and again thatwe are not to judge people lest we be judged. That is Gods job.

  • Stephen Weiss

    Damn. Do all Mormons look like that? No wonder they’re so afraid of gay men…

  • boy scout 1111

    I have noticed that alot of gay people spew hate to those that disagree with their lifechoice. It makes me think that you reflect what is given to you. If Adam and Eve were gay, we wouldn’t be here. Everyone has their free agengy to do whatever they want. That will never change. Everyone suffers persercution of some kind. Gay people are humans and should be loved like everyone deserves. Many people believe that promoting homosexuality will destroy our country. If not them something else will. At the end, we ALL pay for what choices we make.

  • nikko

    BOYSCOUT 111, what the hell was that stupid point you’re trying to make?! God made Adam&Eve, Adam&Steve, and Liz&Lucy, simple as that. There is never a shortage of procreation on our planet, EVER, so your Adam&Eve only argument holds NO water. And no, we do not choose our homosexual attractions. Stop believing your brainwashed religious lies. But I know that’s impossible for you people. Ugh.

  • glasshouses

    Boy Scout, I don’t think it’s hatred. It’s frustration with utter presumptousness.

    For example, the notion that Adam and Eve are vital components of everyone’s life assumes a Judeo-Christian belief system, a bit difficult for the 20% of us that are not religious in the US alone.

    The presumption continues. The notion that we made a “choice” assumes that A) we did so, when most Queer folk would probably suggest that we didn’t, B) that the “choice” that we made is inherently bad and is not to be celebrated, C) can’t be religious or Christian, which doesn’t bother me as a secular Jew but I imagine must be quite awful to those who are religious, D) that there is only one interpretation of a religious doctrine, and all other interpretations be damned (literally).

    I make a “lifechoice” to live in cities; I like cities, I like living in them; I make a choice to live in one. I make a lifechoice to start my day with coffee; I like eating raisin bran with it– that is a lifechoice. It is not about my state of being. Me as Queer: not the same thing as digging cities, coffee, or a type of cereal. To suggest otherwise is dismissive and presumptous.

  • boy scout 1111

    Nikko, you just supported my first line. Glasshouses, you are right. There are other faiths that believe differnt and I did presume. But I have not seen or read proof that people are born with this feeling. I never said that gay people would be damned. I’m sure God has a place for all good people in Heaven.

  • boy scout 1111

    Nikko, who isn’t brainwashed.100 years ago you wouldn’t have believed you were born that way. Do you believe we came from monkies or humans?

  • boy scout 1111

    Glasshouses, you choose to act upon what you think and feel. Don’t you?

  • boy scout 1111

    Nikko,physically only a man and a woman can procreate. If Adam and Eve did not procreate,how could we be here. Fortunately, through science,no one has to physically connect to procreate.Explain that!

  • glasshouses


    Yes, of course, but to assume that one’s sexual and affectional identity should be held in the same regard as whether I take cream in my coffee is obviously a pretty false claim. One is a bit more central to the self.

    Now, personally, lets say that I opt to note that I choose to be Queer (which I really do not believe to be case) why is that a bad option? You’re suggesting that it’s against a religion. I’m not religious and don’t want to be converted– at all.

    I’m an atheist Jew, I don’t believe in any god, I think I– all of me– will rot when I die, and even if I was religious, I wouldn’t assume that Queerness is antithetical to being so, and even if I did, what would that have to do with my civic rights in a secular US? Finally, you can argue that my Queerness is against Christianity. So, if I were religious, would be my Jewishness. So would be my atheism. So what?

  • boy scout 1111

    I never said it was a bad option.

  • boy scout 1111

    But it is true that we can choose on what we think and feel.Right?

  • boy scout 1111

    I’m sorry. I meant to say that we can choose to act on what we think and feel.

  • boy scout 1111

    You are right. We do have rights. Society and order limit them.

  • boy scout 1111

    There are always consequences for All of our actions.

  • Patrick Garies

    @boy scout 1111: Adam and Eve are characters in a mythology. The idea that they actually existed is ludicrous and seriously basing any assertion on “If Adam and Eve were…” is the same.

    Furthermore, I don’t think it’s wrong to speak words of disgust or hatred for people that routinely discriminate against you for no other reason than “I don’t like you.” This is no different than people denouncing racism, gender discrimination, or other unjust forms of expression that harm others without good reason.

    @boy scout 1111: If people need to prove that being gay is an immutable trait, then it is only fitting that (presumed) straight people like yourself need to prove the same. Where is /your/ proof?

    @boy scout 1111: I think better phrasing for your question would be: “Do you believe in the science-based concept of evolution or religious-based creationism?” Your phrasing is very disingenuous.

  • boy scout 1111

    Patrick G, I have noticed alot of gays don’t believe in religion or God.What is considered normal or ok? Whether we like it or not, the majority of the world support oppisite sex unions. How much of the world population is gay?
    The majority of the world population are born with all body parts like head,arms,legs,feet, eyes,mouth,ears etc. They are considered normal. Those missing any of those parts are considered abnormal. Since the majority of the world is straight, and I am also, I am normal. That is my proof. If I lived in a world where the majority of the world is gay, I would be abnormal. Did we choose to be here? Pat,most people don’t hate “you”. They are totaly against what chose to excercise as your right (which they think is abnormal). You have the right to speak words of disgust and hate to anyone you want. But when you reflect hate on people that disagree with your beliefs and actions, you are no better than them. You fuel their hate and they yours. NO ONE WINS! M. Philips went on Oprah to say that when she turned 18, she began to have sexual consenual relations with her father. The majority of the world doesn’t have sex with their parents. True,they are adults choosing to act upon what they feel and think. If you think that is ok Pat, then in your mind, you are right.

    You believe that Adam & Eve are mythology. The “characters” in a mythical book the “Bible” have been an inspiration and guide to our government and to world civility. We, as humans, must be stupid to follow laws and order based on a mythical book (that includes you).
    I don’t hate gay people. I just disagree (based on mythology) that having sex outside of marriage (my mythical god states is between a man and a woman). I don’t hate murderers. I disagree with the action that they take. I don’t hate liars. I just diagree with the action that they take. I don’t hate thieves. I disagree with the action that they take. I don’t hate child molesters. I just disagree on the action that they take.
    If you believe you are born that way,you still choose to act upon those thoughts,feelings,compulsions and desires.
    Scientists say we are predisposed to certain traits. They say it doesn’t mean we will act out those traits just have a much higher probability to do so.
    Doctors say that I am predisposed to alcoholism (addiction). I did finaly make a choice and stopped acting upon my thoughts,feelings,compulsions, and desire to drink. So basicly I was born an alcoholic. Most of the world aren’t alcoholics. That is normal. A small percentage of the world are alcoholics, that is abnormal (that’s me). I have the right to drink. It is not against the law.

    I don’t believe in science based evolution. I find it difficult to imagine that some goo ,after a big bang, has formed complex humans that can create an unlimited amount of things like technology and cities. Goo that has transformed, in time, to be able to build vehicals to travel out of our atmosephere and view the planet that created us from goo. I haven’t seen a monkey do that. I think it’s like a piece of metal laying on the ground and it evolving into a car that moves. Stones that will evolve into a building. Would that be so different? Aren’t the goo based humans the creators of such things? If humans can create the most complicated things, then it would stand to reason that someone created us? Why haven’t other creatures on this earth reached our complex level? I guess it will take millions, billions of years for that to happen.

    Why are we here? Is there a reason? We evolve from goo and then die? That sucks! What is the purpose? Do you have an answer Pat or belief?

    I like the story (you say myth) of a loving Father in Heaven (God) who created our spirits and gave us a plan of salvation. A loving Father who said you can choose to act any way you want. But remember, I want you to come back to me to live forever and give you everything I have to offer. I can’t make you. But I can guide you. If you follow me, we can be together and you can be just like me with no hate but love, power to create worlds and universes without end.
    It may sound silly to others but I like that story and it makes me and my family happy.
    Do what makes you happy. Help others. Don’t return hate.
    Read good books, even mythical ones.
    I’m not writing these things to convince others, just give my opinion (you know what they say about opinions).

  • justinutley

    Lots of posts here, and lots of conversations going. At the very least, the story got people talking!

    I’d like to address a few things. In no way do I spew hatred or angst at organizations (religious or otherwise) that don’t agree with my rights or opinions (since doing so is stepping to a level of pointless argument). My experience is what it is, as fortunate (or unfortunate, depending on how you take it) as it may be. If it causes a bad light to be shed on the religion, that is of no fault or action of mine.

    I still share the same belief I did as a Mormon, that everyone should be allowed to “worship how, where, or what they may.” (LDS Articles of Faith). When an organization takes steps beyond its own congregations and attempts to control the public and private lives of those who are not participants, and when those non-participants have the same rights to “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” that EVERYONE should enjoy in this country, that is when their behavior crosses the line into religious bigotry, especially in cases where the bible (or other religious text) is used as an excuse. That goes for Christianity and any other religion, and that is when I speak up. There is a reason our country is not a theocracy, and that the founders of it were keenly aware of that: for a religion to dictate the rights or freedoms of others, and for a majority to rule and trump the rights of a minority, it is oppression.

    My experience with the Mormon church had some highlights (as many religions should have) for good. But I do not believe in the notions of the literal creation, Adam & Eve (and that the woman was to blame), divine right, earth flooding, black skin curses, discrimination, a chosen people, levels of heaven, secret rituals, crusades, gender inequality, prohibiting iced-tea, coffee, promoting polygamy (in this life of the next), donating time and millions of dollars to prevent two tax-paying adults from being legally recognized as married, was ever something God intended and is not inspired. Those are the stories and writings and inventions of man, a way to govern their people at that time, and an attempt to explain the unexplainable of their time.

    When religions teach (albeit in a subtle, passive-aggressive context) that if you are anything but a white, heterosexual male, born into their faith, that you really aren’t as blessed, chosen, or as divinely-privileged, it is a breeding ground for an inequality-based standard of thinking which spreads like a disease. If a religion chooses to promote and teach that as doctrine, although it disappoints me, that is their right. But I have a right and duty to stand up and speak out when their teachings and actions encroach on my life, how I live it, who I can love, where I can live, where I can work, the influencing politics and politicians, and if I want to serve my country. When it oversteps the bounds religious freedom and into the realm of the rights and freedoms of citizens who do not belong to that religion or believe in the same God, it is wrong. ‘God’ created all men (and women) as equals. There are no amendments to that.

    Let me add, for those out there who wish to be spiritually fed in an organized religion, there are many congregations out there, Jewish, Christian, and other faiths and congregations, that fully understand, embrace, appreciate, and carry that banner of equality. It may take some digging to find them in places like Utah, but they are there (plenty in New York City. Ha!).

    Thank you again, Daniel, for the story, and for those of you who took time to read about my experience and exodus from the Mormon church. As far as my music is concerned, I am grateful it has been a mouthpiece of mine, and that those who enjoy what they hear who have let me know. I will be releasing a new single, called “Stand For Something”, this fall. I hope you all have a listen and appreciate its message.

    To Boy Scout 111 and I AM A MORMON:

    First off, I find it a little ‘queer’ that you are on a gay-themed blog in the first place. Having been a devout Mormon, I know the church leaders encourage those struggling with same-gender attraction problems to avoid hanging out on gay-themed sites. But, welcome, regardless. :) Secondly, if you choose to cover up who you are biologically (which is how ‘God’ created you), that is your choice. In the meantime, I encourage you to do some qualified reading outside the confines of your religious leaders suggestions. You will come to understand that sexuality is not an addiction (unlike an alcoholic, a sex-addict or drug-addict is). Your sexuality, like eye color, will not change, no matter how long you keep the contact lenses in. I pray that one day you will realize you are perfect just the way you are, and there is nothing abnormal about being gay, just like there is nothing abnormal about being Catholic or Agnositc.

    -Justin Utley
    [email protected]

  • boy scout 1111

    I am not gay and accidently got to this site by MSN following different stories. This is the first time ever that I got involved making comments on any website. I told my wife. She was suprised but interested. If you are a member of the chrurch, you know you were created spiritly straight. Satan is the best to fool the best of us. We will pray for you and others. Amen.

    If your neighborhood was invaded with crime, wouldn’t you get involved to stop it? Or would you stand by and say, “I won’t get involved. My house hasn’t gotten broken into.” It is good to see an organization stand for good and participate. Like I have said many times on this site. WE ALL PAY FOR OUR CHOICES! GOOD OR BAD!

  • boy scout 1111

    And by the way Justin, in pre-existing life you agreed to follow the plan of salvation. Heavenly Father will never stop loving you. Use your free agency wisely. It was sad for me to see your words saying you requested your name to be removed. I hope in the spirit world things will be different for you. I have feed many missionaries and gone on exchanges with them. My sons want to go on missions. Remember, you are acting upon what you think and feel is right. If Saul can become Paul, any person can change. Read “The Miricle of Forgiveness” by Spencer W. Kimball.

    I sounds like you were judging me that I was gay. I have noticed that people that don’t want to be judged usually do alot of the judging. No one is born perfect. Only Jesus. We can become perfected through the eternities.

    For me to read teachings against my heavenly father, I will not do.

    But hey,I am no better than you. You feel good about what you are doing. Do good unto others.
    At least you are sharing your talents.

  • Karen

    Boy Scout 1111

    I think you just proved Justin’s point. And for the record, assuming you’re gay isn’t a “judgment”. Its an assumption, especially based upon the fact you’re posting on a gay blog after midnight. What were you searching on MSN? Hunky Ex Mormon Leaves the Church?

    Call it a hunch, but I think you’re the one calling Justin to “repentance”, which isn’t your job or your religion’s, especially since your god and your religion is one of the smallest factions of beliefs, and represents a drop in the bucket compared to the billions of people and thousands of religions that are bigger than mormonism.

    And I hope your wife is happy being polygamist in the afterlife. Just sayin is all. Especially since she won’t have a say in it.


  • Karen

    And for those who don’t know “The Miracle Of Forgiveness”, the author is held as a modern day prophet by the Mormons. He said that the “negro” race has the mark of cain, and would only be able to achieve the role of being angelic servants in the afterlife (see his conference addresses). In this “Forgiveness” book, he says women shouldn’t wear pants or shorts, and states that masturbation is a homosexual act (because it doesn’t involve the opposite sex) and that sodomy is the sin next to murder.

    ..Which is an interesting statement to make beings that I know a few girls from BYU who engaged in anal sex (and still do now that they’re married).

  • boy scout 1111

    Karen, you too assume wrong (you know what they say about assuming). I was looking at “Mormons looinking ridiculous”. My working hours are different than most. My wife accomidates herself to spend time with me at those hours.

    My wife does wear pants and shorts (and she looks good in them thank you). I was taught that whatever we consent in the bedroom between us as a married couple with love is ok. My wife is a strong intelligent woman who is independent. We share basic beliefs and lifestyles. We teach our four children what we belive and know to be true. I’m sure you do the same. I have been taught and belive that in the next life, the gospel of Jesus is taught to all souls. That way we all have a chance to hear and accept or reject it. Whomever I am bound to in holy matrimony on this earth is who I will be bound to for all eternity. I have been taught and believe that whatever I learn about I should still go to my Heavenly Father and ask Him is true or false (that includes prophets).

    My christian faith teaches that once we have the gospel, we should share it. That includes teaching and reminding others to repent. We as humans should all repent from our sins. Aren’t you doing the same? Sharing what you think and belive?

    Do you think if you shared your personal beliefs to others, people would agree with you? Not everybody. As I stated at the end of comment 88, it’s all opinion. What are your personal beliefs on god and personal accountability? Do you believe you have to answer to a higher power for your actions on this earth? I am curious to know if you would like to share it.

  • normal american

    All you gays who like to have sex with the same gender are sick. God says you are going to suffer. Of all creatures on the earth, you gays do this. What does that tell you.It’s not right and you know it. Why do you think animals aren’t gay??Because they are stupid or know better. Sometime the smarter you are the more stupid you are. You can hate me and what I belive. You will call me ignorant or bigot. God told me you are wrong in the Bible. So If I am those things you are calling God the same. You are calling God all the bad things you will call me. that is why the devil is laughing because he has you doing what he wants you to do and that is to go against God. There were 2 cities destroyed because they did what you do. Sodom (sodomy,guys who like it in the butt by another guy) and Gamorah. THE TRUTH HURTS!

  • normal american

    Oh, by the way God says I have to love you. I LOVE YOU GAYS!

  • Jeremy Putnam

    Boy Scout 1111: I would say Justin leaving the church is a pretty good indication he’s rejected any call to repentance you feel you need to bring to him. I also have a suggestion for you. Step outside the box and consider that maybe your church might NOT contain all the truth you believe it does. What if the church was wrong? Would you even want to know?

    Normal American: I can cite you countless examples of homosexuality in the animal kingdom. That’s beside the point. You’re trying to condemn what two consenting adults choose to do in their own home, using God as your excuse for hatred. If God is punishing the entirety America for something a small percentage of the individuals living there choose to do he seems kind of petty and a really bad aim, don’t you think?

    Instead of succumbing to bible-rage I suggest you try a thought exercise. Imagine gay people as living breathing humans with dreams, goals, families, and feelings. Imagine your son, brother, or father is gay and consider showing them love rather than disgust and fear. You never know, maybe someone close to you is gay.

    You’re awesome Justin, can’t wait to grab dinner the next time you’re in Utah!

  • normal american

    Ok jeremy. Two CONSENTING adults Mekenzie Philips and her dad. She was on Oprah to say that they had a sexual affair for 10 years. That is the people you want to associate your gayness with. What they did in their bedroom,you say, is ok just like you. That confirms why americans don’t like gays because of your perverted thinking and lifestyle.

    You think I hate but you chose to ignore my last comment #98.

    Just because I don’t like what faggots do sexually, dosen’t mean I hate them just their anti-human actions. They are still people. God is just will punish you and all that do what you do. I know America is not gay.

    Here is a thought exercise: imagine your brother,sister having sex with your dad or mom. How about your mom or dad having sex with your grandpa or grandma. What they do as adults in the bedroom is their bussiness.

    I don’t have bible rage just telling you what our father in heaven has said about your actions in life. Hey the truth hurts.

  • Patrick Garies

    @normal american: Oh brother. We’re all going to suffer what? Your wrath?

    The adulterers aren’t getting stoned to death; when adulterers start receiving the punishment proscribed for them (for a “sin” much more often cited in your precious book and even prohibited in the Ten Commandments and, thus, presumably a more serious offense) then maybe I’ll take you a little seriously. It seems that most “believers” like to ignore all the inconvenient parts of the book that apply to themselves or a majority of their peers and instead attack minorities because they can easily do so.

    “Of all creatures on the earth, you gays do this.” doesn’t tell me anything and sounds like psychobabble. As far as I can tell, the only basis for you’re “It’s not right and you know it” is a book “written” by a fictional divinity.

    And homosexuality has been demonstrated in other animals. Please do some fact-checking before you make baseless assertions.

    The rest of your post is just a rant about “God this…” and “God that…” which is totally irrelevant to anyone who doesn’t subscribe to your religion. (Funny though how you act like your god is powerless to stop this devil; so much for all-powerful and all-relevant.)

    @normal american: As long as the adults were consenting and fully aware of their actions and these actions had no tangible negative impact on bystanders, I don’t really care (and don’t watch Oprah).

    And how can you accuse someone of ignoring a comment before you have even posted it (comment #98)? That’s ridiculous.

    “Sick”, “perverted”, “faggots”, “anti-human” doesn’t sound like the love you claim in the name of your god. And, again, what is this punishment? A fictional Hell? And America is *not* gay. It just has gay people in it (like everywhere else) and they’re not going away “whether you like it or not”.

    It is their own business. Not my cup of tea, but it is indeed their own business and I don’t plan to legislate against such people. (I don’t think you really care about that though; you just want to insinuate that being gay is akin to something widely viewed as strongly distasteful. Sad how you people have no real arguments.) It looks like incest is on its way toward becoming fully legal too if Mississippi is any indication.

    No, you’re telling us what a book says (and vaguely at that). You’re not giving anyone any reason to value what you say other than your own religious beliefs (which isn’t a practical reason).

  • Patrick Garies

    @normal american: Yeah, you love us… in name only. You don’t actually mean it (and, thus, don’t fulfill your supposed god’s requirement).

    @boy scout 1111: Argument by popularity or majority is fallacious. You say that most gays are unreligious and declare it wrong (by implication) while declaring that most people are straight therefore it’s right/superior by virtue of that “most” (a contradiction). You might want to look up the terms “argumentum ad populum” and “tyranny of the majority”.

    Your alcoholism analogy is a joke. Alcoholism is not an immutable trait (like being gay; you can choose to marry a woman, but you will still be gay) nor are you born an alcoholic. Not to mention you picked something viewed negatively. Try another: People with blue eyes are in the minority and therefore abnormal. Should we legislate against them getting married? Give me a break.

    And I will help others. I will read (the rest of) your book of mythology eventually. However, I won’t base my life around dictates of that mythology or debase others because of it. I define my own sense of right; a story doesn’t decide it for me.

  • nikko

    NORMAN AMERICAN AND BOYSCOUT 111, you two obvivious liars for christ ought to marry each other, you arrogant, bigoted bastards.

  • David

    To the author of “There were 2 cities destroyed because they did what you do. Sodom (sodomy,guys who like it in the butt by another guy) and Gamorah. THE TRUTH HURTS!”

    First, I can’t repeat your id, it isn’t accurate.

    Second, Sodom was not destroyed over homosexuality, even if some of the people had intended rape, which is the least likely scenario.

    Ezekiel makes it very clear why Sodom was destroyed:
    “Ezekiel 16:49-52 (New International Version)

    49 ” ‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. 51 Samaria did not commit half the sins you did. You have done more detestable things than they, and have made your sisters seem righteous by all these things you have done. 52 Bear your disgrace, for you have furnished some justification for your sisters. Because your sins were more vile than theirs, they appear more righteous than you. So then, be ashamed and bear your disgrace, for you have made your sisters appear righteous.

    This passage comes from a lengthy diatribe in which God accuses Jerusalem of idolatry, using prostitution and adultery as metaphors. In it, God accuses Jerusalem’s people of human sacrifice:

    “21 You slaughtered my children and sacrificed them [e] to the idols. 22 In all your detestable practices and your prostitution”

    “36 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because you poured out your wealth [g] and exposed your nakedness in your promiscuity with your lovers, and because of all your detestable idols, and because you gave them your children’s blood,”

    The reference to ‘detestable things’ in verse 50 uses the same hebrew word used in verses 22 and 36 to describe human sacrifice. It is not a synonym for homosexuality, even if you think same-sex lovemaking is detestable.

    God is actually condemning something you are doing – sacrificing the physical, emotional, spiritual well-being of other people to appease your personal vision of god.

    Jewish tradition does not support your claim either.
    “Classical Jewish texts concur that God did *not* destroy Sodom and Gemorrah because their inhabitants were homosexual. Not at all. Rather, the cities were destroyed because the inhabitents were nasty, depraved, and uncompromisingly greedy. Classical Jewish writings affirm that the primary crimes of the Sodomites were, among others, terrible and repeated economic crimes, both against each other and to outsiders. Saying “God killed them because they were gay” is, to say the least, not the Jewish teaching on the subject. ”

    One classical Jewish text on that source draws a direct connection between a specific act of torture on the part of the people of Sodom, and the text in the Torah itself.

    The true heirs of Sodom are anyone, any organization, including the LDS and the RCC, that persecute and oppress other people.

  • David

    Third, the word sodomy, as it has been used in English for several centuries now, actually applies to sexual acts that are not penis in vagina.

    It includes oral sex, regardless of the genders involved – if you have performed oral sex, or received it, you’ve engaged in sodomy. It includes anal sex between a man and a woman, a form of birth control very popular in many Catholic Latin American countries.

    It would help you if you acquired more than a 4th grade education in human sexuality, and religion, before you made pronouncements about other people’s lives.

    But, the link between sodom and sex is a false one, and the true sodomites are those who persecute and oppress others, particularly as a means of acquiring or protecting material wealth and political power.

    Like the hierarchies and some of the members of two particular religious denominations . . .

  • normal american

    Looks like Satan has you gays right where he wants you. You gays will suffer but not by me. When god says it is wrong, it is wrong. Do what you want. We will never agree and I don’t expect to. I’m leaving you “cocksuckers” to your selfish pool of filth. Keep on worshiping your perverted sexual self pleasing “what I feel is right”, I was born this way, I can’t help I love the feeling of a man’s cock in my asshole that was made for deficating only, there is no god,why do you hate us.

    I read the King James version not the washed down any other version. It is more difficult to read (takes more intelligence) and it’s english is better translated.

    When we die and stand before God, He will show us all of our sins and judge us to where we will dwell for all eternity, then will we feel sorry for what we did not repent from while we were on earth.

    I promise you we will know the truth in the next life if you don’t know it or don’t believe it.


  • nikko

    NORMAL AMERICAN: you really are full of your (deluded) self:shit.

  • David

    Re: 105

    “Looks like Satan has you gays right where he wants you. You gays will suffer but not by me. When god says it is wrong, it is wrong.”

    This is an empty dismissal. I presented a detailed rebuttal of certain claims, and received nothing but insults and obscenity in return. The level of abusiveness in post 105 indicates spiritual bankruptcy.

    “I read the King James version not the washed down any other version. It is more difficult to read (takes more intelligence) and it’s english is better translated.”

    No, the KJV is not better translated that other translations. Considerable liberties were taken with the KJV version.

    Further someone who has made so many grammatical, punctuation and capitalization errors is a poor judge of the quality of any text, or the intelligence required to understand said text.

  • golow

    What foolish talk! BYU’s “Shock Therepy” was anything but shock! Yes, there were electronics involved, but most of these blogs are so distorted that even one who ‘knows’ can hardly recognize the immediate subject due to all the misinformation bantered about.
    There are too many who are hateful, bitter, and rebelious. The mormons I’ve known were good people. They have not been repressive or vindictive. They simply believe what they believe…and say so. What else is new? Who doesn’t?
    This site and most people on it do the gay community a disservice and are unhelpful both politically, culturally, financially, and most of all…characteristically.
    These ‘hang-ups’ on the mormons speaks of old bitterness that doesn’t end.
    If people are so happy in ‘our lifestyle’, perhaps they should be a little more eloquent in its support.
    Get over it.

  • nikko

    GOLOW, our bitterness is a right reaction the the heinous wrongs done (and still is) done to us. It demands justice (I’d love to say revenge but I’ll refrain). Many religous people are “nice” but they still manage to poison us with their verbal murder.

  • golow

    Few people can master bitterness; and justice is best served in courts rather than through libel or revenge. I really don’t feel they are as monsterous as they’ve been labled.

    This whole conversation reminds me of the likes of Jessie Jackson or Louis Farrakhan who will never allow the negro race to be free from slavery because they will never allow them to move on and away from the past. The bitterness is kept stirred and smoldering. These outspoken people keep bitterness held close which curtails their people’s advancement and keeps them (the outspoken) in power/control.

    In others words, reckless bitterness slows the entire process down.

  • Sherri K


    And the Mormons will always play the “persecuted” and “victim” card whenever they are called out on the kind of crap they pull when they use their money and ranks to influence politics in their favor, in order to get control of the lives of their non-believing “brothers and sisters”. What a nice warm fuzzy family feeling.

  • golow

    I don’t believe that’s an honest assesment of them. I know them well. They don’t play the victim card any more than the gay communities across the nation. They just know how to use civil means for political ends rather than burn buildings and attack people.

    And yes, they are ‘nice warm fuzzy family’ people. They just have a different lifestyle that they have been protecting for ages.

    And no, I don’t think they are purposely trying to ‘control’ our lives as much as they are trying to preserve the lifestyle they already have.

    I feel there’s too much bitterness and hatefulness…the very things of which the gay community accuses them of being. Let it go!

  • Mark Mc

    Golow, you are either ignorant or choose to not see what is happening in your own backyard.

    You ever heard of the Mountain Meadows massacre? If not, you might want to look into it. That is just an early-church example of the Mormon’s way of treating non-believers. The church still has yet to apologize for that massacre that their leaders ordered on the innocent families, who they murdered. Those families were crossing the plains to California, and posed absolutely no threat other than being “gentiles”. After killing the men and women, the church then took the surviving children to raise in Mormon homes in order to “save their souls”. Drafts of letters penned by the church leaders in Salt Lake who ordered the massacre have been found by historical societies in Utah.

    As far as you thinking the church is not out to “control” lives of others.. when was the last time you or someone you know tried to buy two glasses of wine with your dinner in Utah? Or, if you happen to be gay, try to purchase/rent a home in Utah, and be denied after the buyer and/or realtor finds out you’re gay, and realize its actually LEGAL to do that in Utah, and happens hundreds of times a year? Also, my uncle used to work for the church in their office building in downtown Salt Lake City as an accountant, and he was terminated based SOLEY on him being found “out” about his sexuality at work.

    On the flip side, I don’t know anyone in Utah or seen any news story here about anyone being fired from their job or be denied housing for being Mormon. Why? Because its protected by the laws of Utah, by “Family Values” legislation and business partnerships, and protected heavily by the Mormon-controlled legislature.

    The mere fact that the Mormon church leaders encouraged millions of dollars in donations to dissolve the marriages of thousands of California families who aren’t even Mormon is hateful.

    Gay/lesbian/bisexual murder victims of hate-crimes make up more than HALF of the total hate-crime murders each year (hate crimes are based on race, religion, disability, and sexual orientation). The number of hate-crimes of violence against gays in the USA is near equal in number of those based on race.

    I am the father of a gay son. We live in Utah. We are not Mormon. We have moved our son to 3 different high schools. At the second high school, he came home, having been beat up behind a church-owned seminary by Mormon school kids, because my son and his friends (both straight and gay) held a rally after school about Prop 8. This made our local news at 5pm, but went largely ignored afterward. We could also not report it as a hate-crime since Utah DOESN’T HAVE ANY.

    I know plenty of Mormons who are nice and polite who say they practice “tolerance” of those who aren’t of their faith. Yet, it seems they’ve always got a different agenda behind their backs or up their sleeves which forces their beliefs onto those who are not of their faith.

    There are hundreds of examples and news stories and obituaries each year about gays in the USA who have been harassed, beaten, and murdered just because of their sexual orientation. A small handful (if any) against Mormons.

    I recommend you do some research before you comment next time. Here’s some light reading for you about gay violence in another country:


    Try searching for stories like this about Mormons.


  • Mark Mc

    One correction:

    “The number of hate-crimes of violence against gays in the USA is near equal in number of those based on race.”

    Race is #1 (appx 3500 cases last year)
    Religion and sexual orientation are nearly tied as #2 and #3 (1500 and 1400 respectively).

    Mormonism isn’t even on the radar of hate-crime violence because it rarely, if ever, happens, especially in comapison to other religions of the USA.


  • golow

    Your knowledge and understanding of the Mountain Meadow’s Massacre is distorted and ignorant…let alone a few other “facts” you’ve employed.

    You are fighting a battle you are ill equiped to fight. Worse yet, it is that kind of belligerance that feeds the fires of hate and never lets it go. You have much to learn about people.

    I’m sure there are some bad mormons…as well as gays. Let go of your hate.

  • Sherri K


    I would LOVE to hear your examples that contradict Mark, and the facts he presented that you don’t believe are accurate. Better yet, what your understanding is of the Mountain Meadows massacre and what your sources are?

    And, pardon me for asking, but why are you hanging out on a gay blog, arguing with gays and sympathizing with Mormons? Are you trying to excuse, or better yet, defend the church’s hateful actions? And for you to actually believe there wasn’t any electric shock therapy used on gays in the Mormon church is like believing there was no holocaust. Do some research.

    I’m sure Mark and his family have bigger fish to fry, and would be glad to “move on” with their lives. The fact is, living in Utah with members of the church who treat gays as second class citizens is a slap in the face every day they walk out the door. I’m sure “letting go” of whatever hate they have is difficult to do, especially when those who profess to teach “love and tolerance” have interesting ways of showing it.

    And by the way, this article was about Justin Utley’s music, and the unfortunate role his mormon faith had in his life. I applaud him for rising above the cards he was dealt and being a HUGE example for the gay community to follow.

    You rock Justin.


  • Patrick Garies

    Golow: “I feel there’s too much bitterness and hatefulness…the very things of which the gay community accuses them of being. Let it go!”

    We’ll let it go as soon as the Mormon church gives up its own hatefulness toward gays by not funding–or calling for their members to fund–anti-gay initiatives, by not preaching that homosexuality is evil, by making an effort to atone for all the damage they’ve done with anti-gay constitutional amendments and the like, and by otherwise butting out of our sex lives.

    And while there may be nicer Mormons out there, the church is the most visible speaker for its members; its words and actions will reflect on those members unless they clearly speak up against the church if they believe it’s acting wrongly. I’m not expecting much of that though since, from what I understand, the church deals rather harshly with dissent.

    Religious doctrine (or “lifestyles” as you put it) is no excuse for hatred, stripping people of their rights, or preventing them from getting those rights. When people are actively persecuting you for no rational reason and using propaganda and disinformation to convince others to do the same, it’s only natural to expect bitterness. Until they stop those things, there’s no way that they can be ignored without us (the persecuted) being trampled upon; that’s simply not going to happen. It seems to be *you* that has “much to learn about people” since you seem to think we live in some kind of fairytale land where people just kiss and make up with their attackers even as they’re being attacked.

    First, the instigators need to drop their weapons and apologize with both words and actions; then we can talk. (I’m a realist though and I don’t expect the Mormon church to reverse itself on these issues anytime soon.)

    Finally, it’s worth noting that you, yourself, have done nothing in three posts to try to explain or apologize for any of the disgusting actions of the Mormon church; instead, you’re just putting all the blame on gays and accusing people of presenting disinformation without explaining what the actual inaccuracies are.

  • golow

    Patrick, thank goodness most gays are not as twisted at you and Sherri.

    From all your other texts, it’s obvious that nothing could be said that would not cause a vindictive redress from either of you. It wouldn’t matter how well any argument was backed up or supported. (…and yes, I could.)

    Both of your hearts are so filled with such hate and animosity towards anyone who disagrees, that you make the gay communities appear irrational and filled with vengence. You never can rise above spiteful retribution. Thus, you wallow in perpetual bitterness that can never abate. Yes, you smile, laugh and even mock, but your words show you both to be quite miserable people.

    You want acceptance, but you are unaccepting.
    You want justice, but neither of you are just.
    You want to be understood, but you are not understanding.
    You want to talk, but you don’t want to hear.
    You want legitimacy, but you are both illegitmate.
    You want tolerance, but most certainly, you are not tolerent.

    You make the gays look terribly lop-sided with tongues that cut through concrete. You give bad press. You’re not being helpful.

  • Patrick Garies

    “It wouldn’t matter how well any argument was backed up or supported. (…and yes, I could.)”

    You make this assertion despite having made no material arguments against any statements in this thread even in this latest post. Thus far, you’ve only made unsubstantiated claims. Even your claim that you can back-up your other claims with well-reasoned arguments is itself unsubstantiated since you haven’t even tried…

    Instead we get a tirade with meaningless ad hominem attacks that do nothing to invalidate any of the statements of which you’ve been critical. I guess you have no choice but to resort exclusively to personal attacks and vague assertions though since it’s a little hard to validate information that is simply wrong.

    Finally, the only thing I’m giving “bad press” to is the Mormon church and its defenders. You’re actually helping me with that quite nicely. For that, I thank you. :)

  • Shellie & Del Crone

    Hi Justin,
    We were wondering what you have been up to, so we goggled you… I certainly hope you have us on your missionary life’s high points list (you are on ours).
    Hope we see you again, in the mean time, we wish you the absolute best in your life and all of your endeavors.
    Shellie & Del Crone
    (In case anyone is curious,
    Justin was the best missionary we ever met)

  • wayne

    I am a straight guy, but I have absolutely no problem with 2 people having a loving relationship. I think that religious organizations should not have the right to say who can and can not get married.

    If 2 guys or girls want to get married then good for them. I have no problem with any homosexual relationship. I just do not want their ideals forced upon me. But I have yet to have a homosexual try to make me a homosexual.

    But I have had plenty of religions try to make me believe what they want. I have friends who are homosexual and I could not give a crap that they like guy or girls.

    I think that Justin looks to be a nice guy and that is what I see. It sounded like Justin and Brent were in love and I think the priest said a really disgusting and insensitive thing.

    I would like to see what the priest would have said if it had of been someone he loved. I am catholic but I think homosexuals deserve the same rights as everybody else.

    We should learn from the Ancient Greeks and their way of accepting homosexuals as part of the world. And the time will come when homosexuality is accepted. So people might as well get used to it.

  • Theo

    Couldn’t disagree more with the review of Justin’s music. The article sites two lines of a song, which if you listen to the whole song it is obvious what the song is about lyrically. And each song is pretty distinct. I’m not sure who or what bands the author of this article is referring to, but compared to 99% of everything out there in music, especially gay artists, Justin’s music and lyrics and voice are poignant, thought provoking, and commercial. To be more specific in his lyrics (ie: my boyfriend is dead, or I left the Mormon church) would make his music and message less relative to listeners.

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