idiot logic

The Mormon Church Supports Anti-Discrimination Law Because It Prevents ‘Mind Control’


Don’t let the LDS Church’s support of a non-discrimination ordinance fool you: The Mormon Church remains, thoroughly and proudly, anti-gay. Not only did a church official testifying before the Salt Lake City Council remind everyone as much, but now homophobic conservatives are reaching into their dark recesses of bigotry to put it on blast.

The reason LDS supports adding sexual orientation to Salt Lake’s housing and employment protected classes is because doing so, according to LDS public affairs managing director Michael Otterson, “does not do violence to the institution of marriage.” Well gee, thanks!


But blogger Mike DeVine, of the conservative blog Minority Report, wants to make sure nobody confuses LDS’s support for non-discrimination with the church’s support of homosexuals. You know, in case that wasn’t blatantly clear already.

I and most conservatives (especially including social conservatives) do not favor any government imprimatur of approval for any sexual behavior outside traditional marriage. Moreover, conservatives generally favor that rights protected by the constitution be of the individual variety, rather than group rights, especially those of a “mutable” variety such as what one Delores one’s particular “orientations” to be, as opposed to the immutable characteristics of race and gender/sex.

But, we do favor prohibitions of discrimination based on religion/free speech, so in that sense people of faith could justify the Salt Lake City ordinance as prohibiting mind control. One can believe anything one wishes and still expect to be able to rent property and get a job one is otherwise qualified for. Of course, if the particular beliefs and/or speech rise to the level of advocacy that interferes with the workplace environment and/or property owners’ maintenance of a habitable environment for families, then one could distinguish.

We particularly like to avoid such group distinctions when one would seek to mete out civil penalties and criminal punishments for free speech against certain behaviors or seek to diminish the value of the lives of certain groups by making it a more serious crime to harm people in other groups, especially when accompanied by a requirement to determine an “intent to hate”.

That is: Being gay is the same thing as being a crazy person who believes the plot of the film 2012 will come true, since neither should preclude you from finding an apartment. And while being gay is a “mutable” characteristic — something someone chooses, and can change! — it must be protected in housing and employment because not doing so would permit “mind control.”

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  • Cam

    Does no violence to the institution of Marriage? Isn’t it funny how they aren’t trying to attack the “No Fault” divorce laws in the country that do a HUGE amount of “Damage” to the institution of marriage as far as keeping people together goes.

    They knew the law was going to pass anyway. Additionally, they have been trying to claim that they don’t hate gays and that their church isn’t organized from the top to fight against gay marriage. This of course was disproven when a station in Salt Lake Cith found a Memor from the head of the church back in the 90’s outlining plans and outreach to begin fighting against Same sex marriage.

    So the main issue is, this law was going to pass, the church has taken a hit from their support for Prop 8 and if they fought against a law that just said gays shouldn’t be kicked out of their homes for being gay they knew it was another PR nightmare. This way, the next time they step into the Same Sex Marriage battle they can claim to not be organizationally against gays because “Look, we’ve supported this small local issue that was going to pass anyway.”

  • Duwayne Anderson

    When I resigned from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Mormon Church tried to destroy my marriage. Various active Mormons, indoctrinated/brainwashed by their cult, told my wife to divorce me. They told her I would be better off dead than apostate. They reminded her of the teachings of Mormon prophets – that she would be given to another man in the afterlife, and that I was no longer a part of her “eternal family.”

    The Mormon Church institutionally seeks to destroy the families of ex-Mormons by isolating non-members from church-sanctioned activities like weddings, baptisms, etc. Their policies are calculated, putative, and designed to coerce members into remaining in the church against their will.

    On the other hand, I’ve never had a Gay person try to break up my family. I’ve never had a Gay person tell my kids or my wife that I’m a Son of Perdition, that I’d be better off dead, or that I was a devil destined to take my family to hell. I’ve had Mormons say that stuff, but never a Gay person. No Gay person has ever threatened my marriage; but the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has.

    There are two great lies taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The first lie is that the church supports families; they don’t. The church uses families to coerce people into staying in the cult, and they are perfectly willing to *sacrifice* families, if necessary, in their attempts to deprive people of their agency. The second great lie taught by the LDS Church is that Gays represent a threat to marriage.

    It’s time to expose those lies – let’s hope that the documentary about your family helps put some light on the anti-family hate that is institutionally promoted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

    Duwayne Anderson
    Author of “Farewell to Eden: Coming to terms with Mormonism and science”

  • Keith Kimmel

    Its not coincidence that if you drop an “m” from “Mormon”, you get “Moron”. Proof of concept: (points above)

  • David Kling

    @Duwayne Anderson I am sorry you had that experience, I am even more sorry that you saw fit to leave the church. The Church of Jesus Christ of later day saints is a wonderful group, if our religious view were wrong, we are still helping people all over the world, we support families by having them sealed together forever. It makes me sad that so many people believe us so evil, especially one who was a member prior.

  • Andrew

    Mormons have a “bigoted belief system.” They DO NOT believe in Equality.

  • Something else

    This article just proves that some people are bent on being anti-Mormon bigots no matter what. Mormons don’t hate gays. There are many Mormons who are gay. The LDS Church simply believes in marriage between a man and a woman — this is not news. Nevertheless, if you want to hate, go ahead. Apparently, it makes some people happy to just keep on hating no matter what.

  • Bill

    These Morons, um I mean Mormons need to go take a magical crap in their magical underpants.

    If there were a god, certainly these people would be the 1st to be cast into hell.

    At least Joseph Smith will be there waiting for them…

  • Rikard

    I don’t care what they believe in. They have religious freedom. I don’t care if they change their minds about homosexyality, or not. What I want to get them to understand is that my beliefs about my soul and my sexuality are as personal and sacred to me as their religious beliefs are to them. I am just as entitled to the freedom to express them in a socially benign way as they are. I should be able to express wholesome affection to all I choose. Their inclination to project their perverse imaginations into my intimate sex acts is outrageous.

  • Pete

    I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. My convictions about the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman are deeply rooted and profoundly personal. I do not hate gays. I am not afraid of gays. I am not bigotted against gays. I work with a few of the LGBT community for whom I have a deep professional regard. Just because I do not agree with the LGBT lifestyle does not mean that I hate them or that I am afraid of them. Until LGBT’rs get off this notion, and begin to respect us for our beliefs, I don’t think we are going to make much progress. The bashing against the church that goes on here does not change my mind. Thoughtful, intellectual dialog might help me understand. Until we can go to that level, I remain steadfast in my opinions. I am ready to be influenced if you all can present a reasonable arguement that is not filled with hatred, obnoxious, putrid crap.

  • 1EqualityUSA

    Pete, why are hanging around in gay websites?

  • andrew

    Pete, there is nothing more hateful, obnoxious and putrid than the discrimation – set in law and supported by the LDS cult – that exists in this country. I would certainly prefer that the discourse be civil and respectful, and you are welcome to your ‘deeply rooted’ beliefs handed down to you by your family (I’m frankly not interested in them), but you have to understand that until gay Americans and their families have full equality in law, then you will never hear the end of this. If you care to open your eyes and ears, you will be that the vast majority of the discourse from the various organizations representing the gay community has been extremely respectful. Why doesn’t that influence you… why constant harp on about the occasional nasty post?

  • romeo

    Yeah, Pete, and see if you can do something about those concentration camps, whatever else you call them, that’s what they are, that young gays are pressured in to up there? You know what gays face with LDS. Where do you get off coming in here all holier than thou?

    And what are you doing in here? Don’t you know we got pictures of half naked guys here. Cute ones.

  • B

    In No 10, Pete wrote: “Until LGBT’rs get off this notion, and begin to respect us for our beliefs, I don’t think we are going to make much progress. The bashing against the church that goes on here does not change my mind.”

    Nobody cares about your beliefs if you keep them inside your church and don’t try to force them on others by interfering in their private lives. If you involve yourself in political campaigns to the point of being a significant funding source, you can expect to be treated just like everyone else involved in those campaigns. As Harry Truman said, “If you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.”

    You will not be respected if you donate large sums of money to political campaigns that resort to lie upon lie upon lie to win an election, and that is just the sort of campaign the the “Yes on Eight” side ran in California. They claimed kids would be “indoctrinated” in schools when state law allows parents to remove their children from class when a topic that conflicts with the family’s religious beliefs or “moral” values is being discussed. They claimed that churches would have to perform same-sex marriage ceremonies in spite of the California Supreme Court ruling that a church would not in the decision allowing same-sex marriages. You spent massive amounts of money to deceive the voters, whether wittingly or not. Are you surprised that people are still mad about it?

  • 8

    Its fairly obvious that people who say that the church is a lying, bigoted organization obviously doesn’t know what their talking about. if current views on what the laws should be passed that would lead not only the Mormon church but all other churches that oppose same sex marriage open to law suits for religious discrimination. their needs to be an equal balance between freedom of religion and separation of church and state. if we try to pass laws under an idea for freedom from religion that in itself is considered a religion, because that is a set of highly valued beliefs, aka a religion. am i making any sense?

  • 1EqualityUSA

    Americans United for Separation of Church and State should be seriously supported by every queer from California to Maine. It’s been around for a long time and all types belong, irrespective of political or sexual affiliations. Jefferson had it so right. I hope AU’s roster doubles because of all of this religious ferver. I’m a Christian, but understand how dangerous it is to have any religion pushing their doctrine into American laws. 25 bucks for basic membership.

  • B

    In No. 15 · “8” (Eight, not “B”) wrote, “Its fairly obvious that people who say that the church is a lying, bigoted organization obviously doesn’t know what their talking about.”

    I presume it was a coincidence that this directly followed my comment that Mormons provided a significant chunk of the funding for what might be termed a “lying, bigoted organization,” the “Yes on Eight” political campaign. The Mormon Church deserves a significant level of blame for that – you don’t get a free pass because the dirty work was outsourced, even if the dubious outfit you hired didn’t spell out all the details for you – not when you are talking about tens of millions of dollars and not when that dubious outfit had a track record for dishonesty.

  • Keith Kimmel

    No. 16 · 1EqualityUSA

    “Americans United for Separation of Church and State should be seriously supported by every queer from California to Maine.”

    Already there. You’d think…

  • mark

    It’s all right to have Mormon thoughts, and we’ll rent to you and employ you…but start baptising the dead at the water cooler, and we will sh*t can your a$$, so fast it’ll scorch them magic undies.

  • diane

    In response to #14. Ironically, I believe that the LDS church only got involved in the political arena only when they saw the politics get into their personal lives. When doctors are forced to preform operations that are against their religion and photographers are forced to photograph things that they find repulsive all for the sake of equality then it does get personal. When parents are not given the right to teach their children as they see fit it becomes VERY personal.

    When someone can explain these things sufficiently then we may be able to come to an amicable agreement.

    Also if you don’t respect political campaigns that lie then how can you support the ‘no on 8’ when there were lies given by them saying that education would not be effected? They gave a technical truth that was blatantly misleading with the intent to deceive. In my book this is the worst kind of lie when you use technicalities knowing the truth but seeking to deceive by not giving the full truth.

  • mark

    We didn’t photograph your Mormon missionary boys shirtless or the Mom’s with their muffins hanging out….that was YOUR cult.

    An LDS high ranking lawyer working on Yes on 8 and three of his co-workers sent out BLACKMAIL letters (they admitted sending) trying to extort $10,000.00 from No on 8 donors. Thats a FELONY with 4 yr sentence….PER LETTER.
    “Yes on 8 Launches Blackmail Campaign
    Campaign leaders seek to shake down small businesses.”
    “The letter was signed by four members of Yes on 8’s executive committee: campaign chairman Ron Prentice; Edward Dolejsi, executive director of the California Catholic Conference; Mark Jansson, a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; and Andrew Pugno,’s lawyer. A donation form was included with the letter.”
    any of the serving any prison time, did they pay a dime of the thousands of fines, did the lawyer get disbarred?


    LDS tortured gay teens at Buttars’ Boys ranch for months and years, making them run in freezing nights in their underwear housing them with junkies, and violent discipline problem THUGS.
    see Mormon gulags

  • mark


    Mormons LIED about their in-kind-donations to prop 8.

    saying it was $2000.00

    they gave NINETY TIMES THAT


    You might want to go back to Deseret News….cuz I was raised by a Mormon mother who converted, and I have 100 LDS extended family members who love and respect me as openly gay, and you aren’t on a Mormon site censoring anything they don’t want you to read and I’m JUST GETTING WARMED UP.

  • mark

    QUIT attacking OUR (LGBT) families in other states and we might speak rationally and calmly with you. If you had done to ANY other minority what you did to our families in Hawaii, Arizona, California, and Maine….you would be chased out your 5th state and your temples would be ashes.

  • AJ

    Thinking strategically, does this article really help the cause? Do the comments really win the battle for hearts and minds?

  • 1EqualityUSA

    AJ–There is no winning the hearts and minds of people who are determined to foster the prejudices they hold. Circle ’round and ’round, like my cat chasing her tail, it will be just as effective.

  • macca

    Sorry David, No.4, you bet your sweet ass we view you as evil. I have friends who used to be LDS but they left after the fiasco with Prop 8. All organised religion is mind control and warped.

  • macca

    No 6 – then explain to me why a very dear friend of mine, who was LDS, completed suicide after long talks with the ward chairman or whatever you call that person. He made my friend feel like a useless and worthless being because of who he was. I’m sorry, yours, and all religions should be taxed and / or put out of business. I’m an equal opportunity religion despiser.

  • macca

    And Pete, we would welcome that if the churches didn’t treat us with hatred, etc. It’s a two way street mate – –

  • macca

    And now the big question – is gay marriage so horrible to you that the millions of dollars raised to fight it instead could have done SO much good for the homeless, the hungry, the children with no warm coats for the winter? I cannot understand anyone raising that much money to fight marriage equality, which in no way threatens straight marriage, when it was just announced today there are 49,000,000 hungry americans. Jesus must be so pleased with those who say they follow him. The utter hypocrisy escapes me. Remember, a marriage license is issued by the government, not the church. The church only does their routine as a matter of show, it has no legal bearing whatsoever. That’s what so many seem to forget. The service in the church is NOT legally binding.

  • Daniel

    State laws in Utah are ultimately enforced by the Utah Supreme Court, which is dominated by LDS Mormon cult-members. Gay people have as much chance at justice in Utah, regardless of any laws, as they did under the courts of the Third Reich (speaking of “religious” “leadership” that gives money to violate human rights, LDS cult leadership is like the Vatican, hellbent on violating other people’s human rights. It is worth noting that every Roman Catholic student has to listen to the awkward and hollow explanations of the Vatican about why they didn’t excommunicate Adolf Hilter, who remained a Roman Catholic in good standing throughout his reign of terror in carrying out the Holocaust. The Holy See apparently still remains on that crusade – just ask the victims of the Spanish dictator Franco, decades later, who was also never excommunicated while committing mass atrocities against other Roman Catholics. That’s why Spaniards do not trust Roman Catholic leadership that answers to the Vatican. Vatican employees are evil).

  • Cam

    No. 6 · Something else said…
    This article just proves that some people are bent on being anti-Mormon bigots no matter what. Mormons don’t hate gays. There are many Mormons who are gay. The LDS Church simply believes in marriage between a man and a woman — this is not news. Nevertheless, if you want to hate, go ahead. Apparently, it makes some people happy to just keep on hating no matter what.

    This is a lie. You were bigoted against blacks until the bad P.R. forced your church to change the rules and let them beome full members. Your church still trumpets how instrumental they were in preventing the Equal Rights Amendment from passing which would have constitutionally given women equal rights. Your church has fought equality for ANY group outside of White Mormons whenever it had a chance. Your church has NEVER taken the side of equality. It is bigoted and hate filled to the core.

    Mormons who come out are not allowed to maintain full membership in the church unless they denouce homosexuality and proceed to go back in the closet and act straight. Families are told to cut off their gay children because they are not really their children anymore, they have been taken over by evil. Large numbers of these kids are kicked out of their homes or end up killing themselves. But of course the Mormons that come on here will never admit that. The Mormons who come on here are given a script that basically says “Play the victim”. Mormons maintain their membership roles by continually preaching about how the rest of the world is against them, it makes the outside world seem scary and they think it makes Mormons less likely to leave the church. THAT is why they keep coming on here and acting like they are such victims. Hey, idiots. If you pull a gun on us and start shooting and we yell “Stop shooting us!” Guess, what? YOU are not the victim there.

  • Cam

    No. 20 · diane said…

    In response to #14. Ironically, I believe that the LDS church only got involved in the political arena only when they saw the politics get into their personal lives.

    Nice try sweetie, but the head of your church was plotting to throw a wrench into the gay rights struggle over a decade ago. You may want to take a look at this memo that outlines a long term strategy by your church to fight against gay rights.

  • John

    Tax them.

  • romeo

    They’ve already done their dirty work in California and Maine. They’re coming in here now to try to beat us down preparatory to Romney running in 2012, so he can be all smiley face and clean cut and benign, while he’s putting mormons on the Supreme Court and filling federal appointments. Imagine a mormon in charge of the CDC or the Dept. of Education. Not to mention all the other places they’d have a free hand to go after us.

    And they would. Mormons have little sense of proportion. They are insular, closed-minded, and basically ignorant of the world outside of their little microcosm. Hell, they’re ignorant of their own world — look at all the ex-mormons here.

  • Mike

    I am a Mormon with a gay mother who has had a partner for around 13 years. I consider both of them “mom” becuase they raised me and I never knew my dad. I love them both and have met many wonderful gay and lesbians they assoiciate with.

    My mom and I disagree on religion. But, when it comes to believe, this is mormon vs. gay….

    This is belief vs. belief about what marriage constitutes in the United States.

    Many People and groups believe that homosexuality is a sin and that is why marriage rights shouldn’t be granted.

    Many other groups believe the exact opposite. Given that I come from a very unique position on this I think that both sides of the debate need to realize that the matter will either be voted on or determined in court. In other words, the great poeple of the nation will ultimately choose.

    What is wrong is hate against one or the other. The LDS church doesn’t hate homosexuals. The Lds chruch hates the acts of unwed sexual relationships. But, a lot of mormon people turn the hate to gays and lesbians erronselly and many gays and lesbians turn to hating mormons simply because they are mormon and beleive something.

    Everyone here…..I am a Mormon My Mother is a Lesbian….We disagree on what we think go is ok or not ok with. But, that disagreement doesn’t become actual hate towards individuals.

    I am sure you will read through this and many will come up with slide comments to attack me instead of keeping it issue focused but bottom line is if you do….you are no better than what you are supposedly trying to fight.

    And mormons and homosexuals need to last remember. If they don’t like what is going on in America there are other countries to move to. From my very involved expeirience…..neither group is ever going to change the other.

  • Mike

    please excuse the mass spelling mistakes. I will proof read next time.

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