Michael Phelps appears to have survived the public relations nightmares behind his drunk-driving arrest and his pot smoking photo scandal. But could his relationship with a certain bigoted Miss USA contestant ruin him?
Haha, silly, this isn’t FantastyLand. Celebrities are untouchable, remember?
Despite some casual canoodling between the Olympic champ and Miss California Carrie Prejean, you can expect just about zero damage to Phelps’ reputation here.
Prejean’s grandmother Jeanette Coppolla (is she also a gay rights activist?) says, “Carrie and Michael have been out to baseball games and lunch. He always calls her when he is in town and they go out. … Carrie knows that he has dated a lot of girls but she enjoys going out with him and isn’t serious about being in a relationship with him. He’s a nice guy and she likes him.”
How about we take this to the next level?
Our newsletter is like a refreshing cocktail (or mocktail) of LGBTQ+ entertainment and pop culture, served up with a side of eye-candy.
But if they get along swimmingly, and become more serious, might there be some opposite marriage in their future?
John
I really don’t this whole thing. She is a bigot, big deal, so is the President and most of America. At least she was honest about her bigotry and not one of those back-stabbers who says one thing to your face and then sells you down the river when you aren’t in the room. I KNOW I can avoid her, YAY!
What I don’t get is why there are so many gay men associated with that stupid pageant, what is it about parading women around like Barbie dolls do SOME gay men find irresistable? My roommates CRAP themselves for these shows, why? This girl is just going to shack up with some republicunt born-again christian guy who owns a yacht and cheats on his taxes and we will see her on some news show 15 years from now crying over how her husband cheated on her and got sent to prison for tax evasion or some drama. I wish she had a penis.
Michael W.
Sounds like she’s just a cutty buddy. He doesn’t want to marry her. He takes her out, fucks her and goes home.
Ross
Please! There aren’t too many people, especially in the gay community who hasn’t smoked a little pot in their lifetime. I condemn him more for dating her!
TANK
It is a big deal regardless of how many people are bigoted (like the president). I don’t doubt that many people sincerely believe that marriage is between a man and a woman and that homosexuality is immoral, but sincerity is no excuse for bigotry. Someone like Barack Obama should know that.
So to her defenders, I suppose that the sincerity of her beliefs and the “respectful” (please, it’s called being “polite”–these people are uncomfortably close to the vernacular of our more obvious enemies who don’t feel the need to camouflage their rhetoric with apologies or euphemisms) tone (not screaming at the top of her lungs red in the face like her ideologically extreme ally fred phelps) and she didn’t use the word faggot, makes it all better for you useless complacenet queers (who I think are straight, actually)…
Oaklander
I disagree with some of the above sentiment. I think she has the right to her opinion, but she should be seen as toxic for it. hang with her, and you get tainted.
andy
Michael Phelps may be a good swimmer but so what? I’m so over him now! He is starting to be embarrassing to watch.
TANK
No is arguing that she hasn’t a right to her opinion. This has nothing to do with the debate, but some people who clearly have no understanding of free speech like to bring that up as some kind of nonsequitur red herring to derail.
Neo nazis have the right to free speech, too. Racists and xenophobes, and the most vile homophobes on the planet (e.g., the phelps clan) all have the right to free speech. And yes, one can latch onto an ethically repugnant view and express it civilly…it doesn’t make the person expressing it any less of a bigoted piece of filth.
dk
For the life of me I don’t get why this is still being talked about. While I don’t agree with her position, she expressed it civilly and honestly. What more do people want? That’s her view and she’s entitled to it. As a Black Man I have experienced bigotry in one form or another all of my life, so please allow me to pass on this tip to anyone in the LBGT community who woke up in November 2008 to discover bias. Some people will NEVER accept you because of who you are or what you represent. That’s ok, lead by example and educate those who are open to it.. Can we get back to the semi-nude men now? *steps off soapbox*
strumpetwindsock
Guilt by association now?
For me the biggest thing in this story is that she wasn’t smart enough to give a diplomatic answer to a delicate question. She’s fortunate she got handed this excuse to blame her loss on, and keep herself in the news. Who would even know about this also-ran otherwise?
But devoting a story to someone she might be dating?
Better left to TMZ, in my opinion. Aren’t there bigger fish to fry?
TANK
@dk:
SO it’s not important to call out public bigots who voice their bigotry publically? Is that it? Because as a matter of strategy, I strongly disagree. IT needs to be called to attention and degraded wherever and whenever it rears its ugly head. Especially in this political and social climate. I doubt very much you’d be saying the same thing if a visible pseudo celebutard said something racist…or if so, the intent behind it wouldn’t be to forget about it and accept it. No, this needs to be called out and exposed. The problem is that it’s extending her five seconds…well, look what it did for anita.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
don’t you have some homicidally homophobic jamaican cops to defend? Run along, unky tink.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@andy:
EXACTLY.
I can’t STAND phelps. Dumb! Good swimmer BUT so what??
Chitown Kev
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s):
hey, Hey, HEY! Michael Phelps is a Michigan Wolverine, now. Not dumb by any means!
timncguy
How can anyone say that she expressed her opinion “honestly”?
What was that line of crap she was peddling about how great it was to live in a country where you had a choice and could choose same-sex or opposite sex marriage? What was she talking about? In a whopping 4 states out of 50, you can make that “choice”. In the rest of the states there is NO CHOICE. So, she is either uninformed or just incapable of expressing accurate information.
Was she suggesting that any gay couple that wants full rights had a “choice” to move to one of the 4 states that have full rights?
Maybe she wasn’t talking about “personal” choice. Maybe she meant it was great to live in a country where the “public” gets to vote and make a “choice” for everyone on whether they get rights or not. Maybe next we should vote on whether or not blonde beauty queens are smart enough to get a full set of rights in this country.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
‘scuse me, I don’t believe I was talking to you.
I was saying I think it’s unfair and trashy to start going after family and friends of people who say or do things we disagree with.
Got a problem with that? Well if you believe that anyone who disagrees with you isn’t really gay (@TANK) perhaps you DO think otherwise.
And why do you want me out of here? I thought you were just making an impassioned defense of free speech.
Or do you just want me gone so you can pretend to post as me again using that all-caps name you registered?
Bruno
Congratulations on waiting 5 whole paragraphs to throw in the “swimmingly.”
chapeau
Bigotry is bigotry — no matter how you dress it up.
Latebrosus
Y’all, if there’s any guilt by association to be had here, it’s whether they’ve knocked boots and she’s a Bible-thumping pre-marital sexed-up hypocrite. THAT’S what we need to find out!
rogue dandelion
@Chitown Kev: how does what school he went to reflect his intelligence? I am at berkeley, and there are plenty of dumbasses here, believe you me.
sal
she is dating him to save him from his immoral lifestyle,duhhh “rebuke the bong!!” or maybe she was HIGHHHHH that night lol
HayYall
Maybe there will be a sex tape in a few months of him re-enacting the kama sutra on her while she’s toking a big fatty.
What? I can dream can’t I?
dk
Of course she’s a bigot, of course she’s ignorant. But aside from her appearance in this archaic “pageant”, she’s a nobody. She’s not running for public office, she’s not selling any product,(besides herself) and she’s already gotten way more attention and publicity than she deserves, ignore her, she will go away.
Chitown Kev
@rogue dandelion:
Of course that’s no reflection of his intelligence but he IS a Michigan Wolverine. (I was born and raised in Michigan, I’m a lifelong fan, though I didn’t graduate from there)
All respect to Berkeley, RD. But do you let ’em know in Palo Alto about your dumbasses (as if they didn’t have their own).
Chitown Kev
@HayYall:
Uh, what “big fatty” are you talking about?
rick
is miss california’s certificate of virginity on file?
HayYall
@Chitown Kev: Pot, you dirty boy!
sparkle obama
@dk:
cosign.
boohoo miss california doesn’t respect me!
boycott now, where is the outrage?
whatever!
she gave a wack answer & I. DON’T. CARE.
Tony
I disgaree with what she said, but remember she is a beauty pageant contestant. When were they ever known for their intellect? Did we really expect a coherent answer?
What I don’t understand is how in the world did Perez Hilton get selected to judge the pageant? What does he know about pageants and beauty? Blech!
sparkle obama
ps
quit calling people “bigots”.
that’s going to come back to haunt you guys, mark my words.
The Gay Numbers
Like I said in the other post, I want to know if she’s having premarital sex with him since she’s so “religous”
The Gay Numbers
@strumpetwindsock: Your comment in context is a strawman because it has nothing to do with either party involved. You also on a public forum so it’s a little odd to think you are having personal conversations.
The Gay Numbers
@Latebrosus: Bingo.
Bruno
@sparkle obama:
Why? Explain.
Bruno
@The Gay Numbers:
I don’t know, but she’s had a boob job according to one of the other judges of the contest. That’s not exactly “natural.”
The Gay Numbers
Final- thought- to all the comments about how this is just a beauty pagent so who cares? Here’s my thing- you are projecting your feelings about the event onto whether we should say something rather than how others may view the event. I could careless about beauty pagents, but some segment of the public watches it enough so that the show gains ratings. So when you say “who cares?” You mean you don’t care. But you aren’t relevant. The general public audience is.
strumpetwindsock
@The Gay Numbers:
Not sure what you mean about the first part. I just don’t think Phelps or whatshername’s family should be tarred with this story.
And as for my comment to TANK, I know he has every right to comment on my post, but we have a little personal matter we are dealing with.
And besides, he kind of opened the door by telling me I should leave
The Gay Numbers
@Bruno: Yes, but that’s not Biblically prohibited. Where I like to fuck with people like this is how much of that Bible do they apply to their own personal behavior since that’s the point of all the admonishs in terms of sin. One’s own personal actions rather than those of others. Reaching at her own ability to be a hypocrite here would be a value public lesson for the movement that I wish people would start using more. I learned this lesson with this guy who “could not believe in marriage although he thought I was a great guy, but did not see how two guys could get married due to the bible.” I happened to know this guy would go out to lunch each day at a strip club and also was sleeping with at least 3 different women. I asked him how could he judge me considering his own choices? He said that heterosexual sex, while no condoned outside of marriage, is more acceptable under the Bible. He was making exceptions for himself. I think we need to start pushing that these people are not morally pure even by their own code so why are they forcing it on us?
strumpetwindsock
@The Gay Numbers:
Okay, if that’s what you meant. I think I posted somewhere else that I think it’s great this came up at the pageant. It means the battle is moving onto their turf, right in the laps of a whole section of the public who would rather we were completely invisible.
The Gay Numbers
@strumpetwindsock: I think your opinion here is wrong. Just like I would think it bizare for someone to be dating a KKK member or any bigot. Who we date is a reflection of who we are. That’s just reality.
Family- that’s a different story. We can’t help family. But Phelps can help who he dates. That he chooses to date a bigot tells me a lot about him. I require people to be responsible for their own actions. Here, when you say what you are saying, you aren’t require anything of Phelps at all. You are saying that he can date a bigot and we can’t infer that at the very least he does not find that unattractive.
sal
Carrie -“Michael let me get a hit of the good stuff”
michael -“but the pageant is tonight love”
carrie -“i dont careeee.i wanna get highhh as a kite!!”
m -“fine”
carrie takes a hit and automatically the song “because i got high” becomes her soundtrack for the night!magicccc
p.s. this is a parody,thats all lol
strumpetwindsock
@The Gay Numbers:
No. I am saying judge the man by his own words and actions, not by those he associates with. I know more than a few couples who have very different opinions (and sometimes prejudices).
I prefer to look for ways we can win opinion to our side, not cut people off. She’s still a young person herself. Don’t be so sure she won’t come to her senses somewhere down the road either. I can remember having some pretty judgemental attitudes when I was a kid.
So I understand your opinion, but I expect we’re going to have to respectfully disagree.
sparkle obama
@Bruno:
have you ever heard the phrase “they called me everything but a child of god”??
if you wanna make the world a better place, take a look at yourself and make a change.
DaveO
I still don’t understand why Miss California is being called a bigot for paraphrasing Barack “God’ in the mix” Obama.
The Gay Numbers
@strumpetwindsock: , a) yes who we date to reflection of who we are b) what she may become one day is irrelevant to what she is now c) what you prefer is irrelevant to those basic truism. I am not going to a) make excuses for her or b) make excuses for him. Theya re wht they are. Until they change that, I will proceed based on what they are showing me rather than what I would like them to be. Will i try to convince her? yes. Will I sugarcoat her bigotry- no. One does not need to engage in fantasy to change opinions. In fact, fantasy harms the ability to assess what a person is, and to try to make efforts to change it. Most of modern aAmerican culture seems to have lost the ability to see things pragmatically.
sparkle obama
@The Gay Numbers:
i’m not trying to fight, but your arguments are extreme and, i’m sorry to say, are indistinguishable from the arguments used by the christian right against gay people…
i am respectfully asking you all to step away from the beauty contest & keep your eyes on the prize.
Motard
Living in Baltimore throughout the height of Phelpsmania, and the aftermath, I can pretty much tell you from firsthand experience that we’re at least as tired and embarrassed by the big lummox as anyone else.
His big doofus self can be seen all over town, picking up beer and chicks. While this does not make a douchebag make, riding one’s admittedly deserved fame to such a hard degree, so persistently and relentlessly is.
There’ll always be another cocktail waitress to bring home to Mom n’ Pop next year.
Captain Freedom
The title of this article is appalling and offensive! It is also extremely dishonest. When did Michael Phelps EVER have a DUI or drunk driving arrest? The answer is NEVER.
Michael Phelps is an American Hero and to hold him accountable for the fact that his RUMORED girlfriend is a hot bimbo bigot is disgusting.
I find this very article abhorrent. Michael Phelps is an American Hero and somebody who defended our glory in front of the entire world against our number one ideological rival.
The person who wrote this article should be fired. Not even because of the message of the article but because of the extreme arrogance and cockiness shown in the first paragraph.
AJ
@Captain Freedom: LAWL
TANK
@sparkle obama:
You’re retarded. You have no argument, and this is tantamount to a protracted ad hominem. Go have your tantrums in a sound proof box, please.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
You too. And yes, the people you date reflect your character. Your friends reflect your character…the people whom you freely associate reflect the person you are. Haven’t you ever heard that before? Zoinks! And I goddamn son of a bitch MOTHERFfffffff will take someone on who dates a racist or dates a homophobe. That person’s got some WIRING LOOSE. I don’t care how politely the racist or homophobe or antisemite expresses their hate speech; it’s still hate speech, and the person who’s dating them isn’t just guilty by association, but a willing accomplice.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@strumpetwindsock:
“No. I am saying judge the man by his own words and actions, not by those he associates with ”
Cool.
So he can fuck an offensive pathetic bitch like but we’re suppose to jus swim by??
I LOATHE Michael Phelps.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Motard:
Exactly.
Phelps is so…predictable..
strumpetwindsock
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): @TANK: @The Gay Numbers:
Wow… no fraternizing with the enemy eh?
I guess I can understand it in the case of a vicious homophobe like Prejean, who has been so instrumental in building the anti-gay movement.
But I can’t help but wonder, have you boys never worked with, associated with (or god forbid, slept with) anyone with whom you had a strong moral disagreement, but who otherwise might be charming, intelligent, hardworking, trustworthy or extremely fuckable?
If not, I wonder if you have perhaps been spending a bit too much time in your rooms. I think it also explains your sledgehammer rhetoric.
I have a dear friend with whom I have had vicious disagreements – mostly to do with his libertarian capitalist politics. The fact we can have screamimg matches over the right to a minimum wage and taxing the rich versus relying on their good graces does not change the fact he is one of the most honourable, trustworthy and generous people I know.
Most of the people in the world are a little bit more complex than one stupid answer they give to a question in their early 20s. You’ll never find that out (and I doubt you’ll ever change much in this world) if you only stay within a self-imposed ghetto and listen only to those who think exactly the same as you.
BradK
As for Carrie Prejean, I’d say she’s a fine representative for the people of California:
– Looks like an 80’s plastic porn princess. Check.
– Boob job. Check.
– Can’t speak in complete sentences. Check.
– Homophobic (and apparently proud of it). Check.
I mean, have you ever *been* to the O.C.? She blends.
So what if Michael Phelps wants to do a few bong hits and dump a load in her? If there’s any justice, he’ll have taken a few pics or footage to be leaked to the media at an opportune moment.
Bruno
@sparkle obama:
So are you saying we shouldn’t call people bad “names” like “bigot”? I don’t understand that…it’s not like calling them a nasty word, it’s just truth.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
I have friends who disagree with me passionately. In fact, no one I know agrees with me on many issues. It’s the stuff of interesting relationships and stimulating conversations. None of them are bigoted asshats, though. Perhaps you misunderstand the premise.
Motard
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s):
So, I don’t hold it against people like Captain Freedom that they need a Real American Hero to put on a pedestal. It’s just that Phelpsie isn’t a particularly good candidate for it.
The kid is 23, and apparently has about a decade’s worth of partying to catch up on. Good for him. But that probably means he’s going to make some dumb (and I mean duuumb) mistakes, and be intolerably douchey for a while.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
I have friends who disagree with me passionately. In fact, no one I know agrees with me on many issues.
LOL. Now why doesn’t THAT surprise me? (no offense intended this time).
Nope, I think I heard well enough to draw my own conclusions.
She’s quite young, not too smart, self-righteous, homophobic, and playing up her role as a matryr. I’m not impressed with her behaviour at all, but frankly she’s a pipsqueak, and she’ll be forgotten in two weeks. Maybe she’ll smarten up someday, maybe not.
As for Phelps, I know nothing about the guy. I don’t care why he wants to hang out with her, but I’m certainly not going to blame him for the things she said.
But the real point of my first post had nothing to do with them; it had to do with the journalistic ethics of this site posting a story like this. If you guys want to write them off, fine. I disagree (in particular with treating him that way), but neither am I going to call tham up to congratulate them; I don’t care.
But I have a real problem with the article itself. People are allowed biases, but journalists have a bit more responsibility to treat those they write about fairly. For a media outlet to raise questions about someone for something he or she did not do is completely unethical. I wouldn’t have minded if they mentioned it in passing in an article, but this article is verging on a smear campaign, IMO.
strumpetwindsock
One last thing… I have reasonable discussions on this site with people who have beliefs I find much worse than someone who doesn’t support marriage equality, yet I manage (generally) to be civil and not refuse to have anything to do with them.
TANK
That doesn’t excuse her, nor one’s responsibility to shoot down a vocal bigot. You need to stop making excuses for homophobes; and that particularly excuse is the saddest one of all. Most, if not all antigay bigots are, in fact, stupid.
Nonetheless, the people who we freely choose to associate with reflect our character. End of the story. So Phelps can be judged for this. You just choose not to because there’s always going to be a compelling excuse for people like you to ignore, minimize and deny the behaviors of bigots and those who tacitly endorse their behavior by associating with them.
The Gay Numbers
@sparkle obama: If you think having an opinion means one is extreme or not being a doormat while someone steps on you, then yous, you are right. This is a kin to a friend of mine who was understanding when someone painted “chink” (spelling?) on his door. He said that they were not bigots. His point was that he was open, and I wasn’t for pointing out that someone writing what they did on his door is racist. I don’t care if you don’t get it. I don’t care if you think this is like Chrisitanity. that’s only a sign you are kind of screwed up not to be able to tell the difference- namely I could careless what her life is. Yet she would tell me through the law what mine is. It’s pretty said and pathetic if you in your need for faux openness can not see the difference.
TANK
And the claim that she’s an insignificant quasi celebrity and has no “power”, and therefore shouldn’t be given any attention is impotent because the same thing could be said of anita bryant and a laundry list of antigay spokespeople. It’s invalid because her quasi celebrity status and lack of political power (or an organization that she’s founded) is exclusive. Her publically voiced belief echoes the beliefs of the official positions of bigoted organizations with power, and support them. And saying that her beliefs also reflect the beliefs of, say, barack obama is no excuse for hers or his.
The Gay Numbers
@TANK: Several people seem to think open minds you must be open tot hose who hate you. In other words, that to be tolerant one must be tolerant of the intollerant. That the African American must be tolerant of the KKK member lynching him. The Jew must tolerant of the Nazi throwing him in the ovens. It’s a bizare definition of tolerance. Tolerance means we are suppose to suffer legally at the hands of those who disagree with us. It’s perverse, but a lot of people live by the lazy mantra that open means having al ack of judgment. Sadly, that’s several posters here.
The Gay Numbers
@Motard: I don’t dislike Phelps. I just think less of him that he would date somone like this. It says something about his character. He can do whoever he wants. But, I don’t feel the need to sugarcoat what that says about his character
The Gay Numbers
@Bruno: In all likelihood, this person is either a troll or an idiot. In either case I am not sure reality is something they understand.
The Gay Numbers
@strumpetwindsock: Oh come on. Look, say your peace, but don’t be passive agressive. The reality is that this woman is a bigot. I am not interested in your game of no dealing with that reality. And yes, anyone who sees my relationships as less is per se a bigot.
TANK
@The Gay Numbers:
Yes, for to be intolerant of intolerance to them is bigotry. Interestingly enough, whenever you fill in the blanks for intolerance, they dodge by making this about free speech or some such irrelevant nonsequitur. Or…they back off. But by that time, their egos are so vested in this rubbish reasoning, that they can’t just admit that they’re wrong.
It’s founded upon very sloppy streams of relativism (some are sophisticated as a metaethic which is…wrong, but not this one) and postmodern thought. It’s infuriating to engage them, because they’ve already admitted that they can’t think very well and thus won’t be open to a rational discussion of this inference. But, to be intolerant of intolerance can’t be contradictory. IT means, rather, to be intolerant of beliefs which are acted upon and cause unnecessary suffering and harm. Anyone who supports such beliefs through these pathetic rhetorical devices is morally repugnant, for while they may say that they don’t subscribe to them personally, their silence and refusal to judge them for what they are is a judgment call they’re making, and one which enables these harmful beliefs and practices to flourish. Their ommission renders them just as culpable as the bigots that they indirectly and directly defend.
The Gay Numbers
@TANK: Yes, I know from where it derives. Not to be a stickler, but it’s not real relativism. It’s the pop culture version which requires nothing of us other than slogans and soundbites. Much like the pop culture version of free speech is “speech” in which one can say what one wants,but not be criticized. The definition renders the concept virtually meaningless.
It’s open, but only in a perverse sense in terms of the outcomes it produces.
The same is true here of tolerance. If tolerance here means one gets to harm me then it leads to attrocity. But, by th same token, my saying I do not agree with their intollerance does not because it ends with neither me denying their private rights to be Christian or my ability marry whom I want.
Both beliefs, under my world view, can mutually exist in the private sector. The problem is where they want it to exist at law. This is where the argument of the faux-open people ends. You can not be open, and then promote a law that deies some equality. It’s perverse to claim youa re doing so. It renders what is being said as sophistry. Her world view can not promote mutual existence in the private sector because ultimately hers is the closed system. My world view is that we both are equal under the law. That means we both privately get to do what we want. That’s true openness that ‘s not a soundbite or feel goodisms.
TANK
@The Gay Numbers:
Well, right, it’s not what any relativist I know would like to be lumped together with. but it’s a very popular and very vulgar (because it’s self refuting and you’re quite right, meaningless) form of relativism. Sophisticated ethical relativists don’t mind people calling others wrong or whatnot…but they have no way of resolving genuine moral disagreements because according to them, they simply don’t exist…which doesn’t correspond to reality, in my opinion.
And yes, Millian liberalism is the only way to go.
strumpetwindsock
@The Gay Numbers:
Passive aggressive?
Don’t lecture me about what I should think. You guys are a couple of fucking witch hunters.
@TANK:
And those ten dollar words sound nice, but have nothing to do with what I actually said.
I wrote a post saying that I think it is unethical to publish an article smearing Michael Phelps for something he had nothing to do with. It is unethical; It’s trashy, dangerous heresay that belongs on TMZ, not a site that should be holding some kind of journalistic standard.
I don’t know why you’re going on about Prejean. I’ve said several times I thought her comments were ridiculous, self-serving, and homophobic, and my post had nothing to do with her.
Yet because I won’t condemn Phelps (based on no evidence other than that they have met for coffee) and play your little game of “burn the witch” you try to tar me with the same brush, and accuse me of tacitly supporting her.
This has to do with responsible journalism and not making unfair attacks against people – guilty or innocent. That’s something we should be concerned about for EVERYONE – not just the people we like.
The Gay Numbers
@TANK: I do not have a school of thought I follow other than maintaining some basic rules of thumb (i.e., the golden rule, applying relativism when it comes to non-harmful and/or non-systemic (economic) choices etc). The problem here is borne out of people following a pop culture derived believe without understanding its limitations. Philosophical beliefs will usually suffer from limtiation. The question for me is not one of pure logic or ethics, but impact in the real world. That’s where definitions have value. That’s the limitation as you describe of correctly applied relativism. It can lead to spinning in circles because no data input can prove anything. It’s essentnially the world’s best flat earth argument or, if you prefer the world’s most sophisticated sticking of one’s fingers in one’s ears and going “la-la-la I can’t hear you.” It leads to absurdiies like those posted along this thread where we can not call a bigot a bigot because calling her what her behavior is- “harms” her. It decouples her actions and our description of her actions from reality or any sense that there is any factual understanding of what is happening here about terms like equality, and what they mean.
Motard
@The Gay Numbers:
My point was that Phelpsie has a good track record of being plenty douchey enough since last summer without Miss Carrie’s help. Peas in a pod, and all.
If anything, I’m saying that his character — not so much his accomplishment, that can never be taken away, barring performance-enhancing drug revelations (please, that’s not gossip I’m starting; purely hypothetical) — is already substantially questionable.
I’m not even talking about the DUI or the bong rips. Parading his celebrity and status around? Check. Using that celebrity and status as a entrez to womanizing, and womanizing with poor taste no less? Check, and check.
I don’t think I’d even mind it as much (and mine is not a unique opinion) if he didn’t market himself so aggressively as a humble, aw-shucks all-American hero. What gets me is the terrible fraudulence of his endorsement persona. Without the achievement, he’d big a big, Dumbo-eared, mutant toolkit. With those medals around his neck, he’s a big, Dumbo-earned, mutant toolkit with some well-earned bling.
The Gay Numbers
@strumpetwindsock: You are a kook.
If f I am a witch hunter for pointing out those who are hunting me are indeed hunting me, then you have a perverse definition of the word. If I can not call someone a bigot (which by definition means discrimination) for treating me as unequal under the law, then you do not understand bigotry’s definition. The key element is discrimination. Without it, especially at law, which is what marriage is about- it renders the word useless for our understanding our mutual realities.
By your definition anyone fighting for equality is the same as someone legally denying.
The black person stating that “Jim Crow is wrong” is a witch hunter. The woman complaining about being paid less for the same work as a man is sexist. She is a witch hunter.
That’s the logic of your comments. Do you get logic? I have to wonder.
What you are arguing is sophistry. It is a common tool of the right wing. Sarah Palin arguing that her first amendment rights were denied because she was being criticized for her positions. In other words, for her to have free speech, no one must exercise their right to free speech. It’s perverse. The same is true here. To be tolerant, I must let someone discriminate against me under the law. It’s perverse.
That’s not a healthy open minded. That’s self destructive behavior.
Motard
Oh, and PS:
This is not my argument, so I’ll only weigh in with the following:
Arguing whether or not she has the right to say stupid, moronic things is precisely the spin that the FNC assholes want. They get to claim First Amendment victimhood, which is precisely the tactic that’s given Republicans and the Right such an electoral advantage this past decade — pretending they’re the aggrieved parties.
I say: Let the cunty bitch have her say.
But we, and everyone else in this beautiful, great land of ours have the exact same right to call her a Cunty Bitch to her face, on TV, in our bedrooms, in every forum in the land.
She’s going to wind up one of the more tragic Real Housewives of OC, anyways. With cheaper Botox.
Back to your originally scheduled flamewar.
The Gay Numbers
@Motard: Maybe. I don’t have an opinion of all of that. My only feelings about him are actually that I believe his dating a bigot does say something about who he is. M
aybe he’s not fully formed as you say. Hell, I was not fully formed until 32. Maybe he’s just an idiot. Whatever. I can’t say. I just know it does say something negative about him.
I would not hold it against him forever, but it would be something that I would put into my mental note book about a person. Even the beauty queen, if she came to me with changed attitude, I would accept her, but she must come with change attitude or an opennnes to change. Her bigotry would be in my mental note book.
I am not trying to make excuses for her as she presents herself at the moment. She is what she is. A bigot. As for Phelps- I don’t know if he’s a full on bigot or just a guy just trying to get his dick wet.
The later being sad since he can get his dick wet with as many women as he wants right now. Either way, it doesn’t matter. He’s telling me who he is right now by dating her. The rest however is frankly none of my business. Whatever public persona he wants to put out there is his right so long as it does not include a connection to making bigotry seem more legitimate.
The Gay Numbers
@Motard: I didn’t think you were discussing the other points. I am very precise about reading what people are and are not saying. I do disagree with the right wingers regarding ‘free speech.’ Sure, it’s what they want- they always want culture wars. But, one thing I realized with being African American is that you can’t ignore these things. When I used to debate people, they used to say that I was trying to be poltically correct. I politely pointed out that you have the right to speak your mind. You have the right to be a bigot. BUT- I have the right to say you are a bigot. What they want is the right to say bigotted things without challenge. The worse thing we can do is be silent. Our silence favors them. Not us since the intertia of the status quo is against us culturally.
strumpetwindsock
@The Gay Numbers:
I’m not sure who you are arguing with, but it’s not me. You’re not even addressing my points.
I agree that she is homophobic. Do I need to repeat it again?
You can call Phelps homophobic if you want; I believe I told you I recognized that. Personally, I don’t think the evidence is there to hold him responsible for her words. I don’t think it is fair to accuse a person of discrimination because he meets another person for a meal, and frankly I don’t think it would meet the burden of proof in any court or inquiry either.
We disagree however, and I am fine with that.
But for you two to accuse me of tacitly supporting her position because I won’t join with you in saying Phelps is a homophobe?
That is witch hunting.
And more importantly, my issue is with the author of the article, who I think should be held to a higher standard of responsibility than you and I.
So if you have something to say regarding things I have actually written, I wouldn’t mind hearing something concrete.
Perhaps a good place to start is to tell me what Michael Phelps has done that makes you think he is a homophobe.
strumpetwindsock
@The Gay Numbers:
I think you answered my last question right there.
You don’t have any evidence he’s a homophobe. You just don’t like that he’s hanging with one.
Sorry. That ain’t enough to hang a man.
But just to make sure you are reading this with precision, my real issue is not with the couple, but with the author of this article, who I feel was being very irresponsible.
Captain Freedom
I will say it again. This article is pure slander against Michael Phelps. He never had a DUI and was never arrested for driving while drinking. I am utterly DISGUSTED by this article and I think the person who wrote this owes Michael Phelps a tremendous apology.
HOW DARE YOU make baseless charges against somebody who has never lifted a finger at gays. This article in my mind sums up all the negative factors of the LGBT community. This reminds me of the whiny bitchy types who shout “BREEDER” in public and then shout “HATE CRIME” after they get their asses kicked by the people they started problems with.
This website is really fucking up bigtime. Posting irrelevant gossip stories and now slandering an American folk hero. Michael Phelps is someone who won us 8 gold medals and is only guilty of representing his country in front of the entire world.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Captain Freedom:
Heh, you’re so silly! lol! 🙂
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@strumpetwindsock:
So if me and Saddan Hussien went out for a mean and a little kiss here and there…
You’d think I was cool, right?
Okay. I guess you don’t agree on the old age sociology theories or philosophies, such as, “it says a lot about a person who they are seen with”..
Hmm…
Each to their own. You remind me of someone I used to date who couldn’t see what was wrong with his friend having racist opinions and so therefore wouldn’t stop being friends with him, even though it was offending me..as a black person and partner.
ascarius
a “Drug User”??? Come on guys! He was just photographed smoking some weed….!
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Motard:
“I don’t think I’d even mind it as much (and mine is not a unique opinion) if he didn’t market himself so aggressively as a humble, aw-shucks all-American hero. What gets me is the terrible fraudulence of his endorsement persona. Without the achievement, he’d big a big, Dumbo-eared, mutant toolkit. With those medals around his neck, he’s a big, Dumbo-earned, mutant toolkit with some well-earned bling.”
Beautifull put. I agree 100%
I couldn’t care less if he smokes weed…I do occassionally, who cares? But we are less puritanical in Europe..but the guy is just a tool!
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s):
We broke up..obviously..
strumpetwindsock
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s):
Well I don’t think slipping him the tongue would be worth a rope around your neck.
But read my original post. As I said, my main concern is not with individual people. I think the approach is unfair, but they are free to act like the gay thought police if they want.
But an unfair attack in the press is quite another thing.
Here’s an analogy that relates a bit more to my point:
If you were friends with someone who had been arrested for something horrible or embroiled in scandal do you think it would be ethical for photographers and news media to splash your face across the paper, write derogatory comment about you and ask why you are associated with that person?
Or if it was a relative of yours do you think it would be ethical for them to make fun of you in print?
And if someone actually complained to the media about your treatment do you think it would be fair to accuse that person of being complicit in the crime or original scandal?
More specifically. Do you think this story would even have been printed if she was having coffee with anyone who was not as famous as Michael Phelps? Of course not – because it has nothing to do with him other than being a cheap attempt to cash in on his name and smear him.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@strumpetwindsock:
Yes to all your questions. You’re speaking to the wrong guy here cause I’m OBSESSED with accountability. If you’re gonna be a bigot, then were it with pride and honesty don’t be a f*cking hypocrite.
My mother makes the most prejudiced comments and why in HELL shall I stick up for her when she made those comments??
Please, I loathe people like Phelps.
This was a light hearted article that you have made it into some life and death situation.
I give a shit as much for richer the rich Phleps the skirt chasing rich jock then for lily fake blonde hair over tanned homophobic tweet miss world wannabe!
Now, if we’re talking about people like Nelson Mandela, or the treatment of people like you and me (normal people who are downtrodden on) who are unfairly treated by the press or the judiciary system, we could be having this conversation.
NO ONE asked Phelps to take sooooooo many deals, why phelps? will you help the poor in culcutta? nope…but YOU chose to be MORE in our face ALL the time. Why can’t you be in our faces working with children hospitals??
NO you go to vegas, were their are a thousand paps outside…you blatantly grope waitresses serving drinks and you decide to go on to dates with the most vapid piece of over streched leather, Miss Barbie 2009!
And Miss Barbie, were YOU not given media training? We all know you and your mum have been training for this ALL your cold shallow life…so come on…? Why are you saying something that is disrespetable? Has she been living under a rock??
So yeah, lets have this conversation about two people who aren’t attention seeking shallow famewhores.
Tell you what is unethical, the amount of crap celebs get away with and us mere mortals are treated like crap, arrested for drug possesion when you just have a spliff on you in London or accused of all sorts of shit with no proof.
The amount of friends who’ve been arrested and done nothing wrong but they don’t have the right colour skin, or money or fame..
If you play with fire….
Chitown Kev
Hey, I would like just once to smoke on Phelps “big fatty.”
strumpetwindsock
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s):
And actually I thought about your last paragraph.
If a lover of mine didn’t like someone I associated with I would obviously try to be discrete and accomodating (not inviting the person over, obviously), but if it came down to an ultimatum and I had a strong reason to continue that friendship (even with a racist or homophobe) nobody would dictate to me who I can associate with.
That goes double for someone who tries to blame me for the actions of others. Obviously I don’t know the specifics of your case John, so this is not dirested at you, but if someone tried that with me there’s a good chance I might show him the door.
I actually do have friends from vastly different social circles, some of whom hate each other. I don’t have any close friends who oppose marriage equality (it’s a settled issue up here) but I certainly associate with a few people who oppose it for religious reasons. Likewise I know a few people who hold racist views (in at least one case, about me). I also know a few people who are anti-abortion (again, religious).
Fact is I didn’t seek out their company based on their political views, but there are reasons why I associate with these people, and it’s nobody’s business but mine.
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): Light hearted? Perhaps you should ask whatshername’s grandmother how she feels about that.
And perhaps there’s something in the AP Styleguide about who can and who can’t be smeared in the press. They must have left that chapter out of the Canadian Press edition. I just assumed that ethical standard applied to everyone.
HayYall
@Chitown Kev: Hi five girl, hi five.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
This is far more than a casual one time encounter–this is a gay casual relationship, if anything. So you can downplay the extent, but I see no reason to call her grandmama a liar.
TANK
@Captain Freedom:
You can haz this cheeseburger, hai!