âA substantial majority of voters in Los Angeles support the right of same-sex couples to legally marry, with 56% in favor and 37% opposed,â according to a new Los Angeles Times poll.
MORE: âThat finding closely tracked the results of Novemberâs election in which Proposition 8, which limited marriage to unions of a man and a woman, won statewide but lost in Los Angeles. But the poll also showed that within the city, views on the issue differed widely among racial and ethnic groups.
âWhite voters were most emphatic in their support for same-sex marriage, with 68% supporting it and 27% opposing. African American voters were strongly against it, with 54% opposing same-sex marriage and 37% supporting it. Opposition to gay marriage by African Americans was widely seen as a major factor contributing to the passage of Proposition 8.
âLatinos in the current poll were split, with 45% supporting same-sex marriage and 46% opposing. Within the Latino population, there were additional divisions: women, the young and people with college educations offered more backing for gay marriage than men, older voters and those with fewer years of schooling. Since the passage of Proposition 8, political analysts have suggested that statewide support for same-sex marriage is only a matter of time, and the poll offered support for that idea.
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âAmong Los Angeles voters, support for same-sex marriage grew consistently stronger as the age of respondents decreased. Among those age 18-29, 66% said same-sex marriages should be recognized as valid, while 29% disagreed.â
dgz
uh-oh. i can see the comments already…
Dan
Come on, this is something we already knew. It is why, if we want to overturn Prop 8 at the ballot, we should either try in 2010, or wait until 2014. 2012 would be a terrible year to try, because Obama will be on the ballot. Obama brings out the black vote, and that’s a disaster for our cause.
emma
@Dan: You know what’s a disaster for our cause? Racism.
People who once opposed marriage equality are not doomed to oppose it forever, as we’ve seen in the ever-increasing support for it nationwide. And we’d see better results among people of color much sooner if, rather than pronouncing them a lost cause and denouncing them as our enemies, we enacted some actual outreach for a change.
InExile
Even worse than the ethnic divides in California is all the cities of California’s central valley, the area between Los Angeles and San Francisco. I worked in a city in this region for 2 years and it was 2 years of hell. I remember almost every house had an IMPEACH BILL CLINTON sign in the front yard.
I managed a large hotel with most of the employees not wanting, some refusing to work on Sunday because of church. Churches are very big business in these areas. I have never seen as much employee theft as I saw there, it was unbelievable. My point is this region is hopeless, no change will arrive there.
Random Gay Guy
@Emma
I agree with everything that you said. The African American/Latino communities are religious communities that fell victim to Prop8 organizers that used religion and scare tactics. In preparation for a possible 2012 vote, we need to frankly take a lesson from the politicians when dealing with ethnic communities. You get well known, famous minorities to come out for or against a particular issue. We need to reach out to other minorities and show that people of color are also affected by Prop 8 and that role models of people or color are against prop 8.
Captain Freedom (HRC doesn't speak for me)
Prop 8 organizers are the Nazis of the 21st Century. They have more in mind than just marriage. They freaked out when Obama threw a crumb off the table for federal employees. Rest assured if there was a constitutional amendment to put all of us in concentration camps just like the Jews they would enthusiastically support it.
Then once gays protest that they’ll shout “What’s with all the hate? All we’re trying to do is exterminate you. We can see who the hateful ones are.”
We need to stop treating Prop 8 supporters like rational people. I say we continue the MASSIVE tv ads and this time show no mercy. We should have ads HIGHLIGHTING how Hitler was too a homophobe and if necessary use some scare tactics of our own. Show people how this is the exact sort of hate that led to the Holocaust and extermination camps.
COME ON PEOPLE! Stop pussying out! It’s time we get Karl Rove on our own on the right-wing and the Evangelical/Mormon White Power structure. Blacks and hispanics fell for the card trick of the Christianists and now we need to show them that and win them over.
OhYeah
We already really know all this, though (except for the politically correct dictators who refuse to admit it). Still, though, it obviously doesn’t mean every black person is against same-sex rights.
Joanaroo
The Christian/Mormon (or Christer/Moron as I prefer to call it) effort to pass Prop H8 reminds me of research I read that showed the religious were found to have a lower I.Q. ThIs must prove that the uber-religious hypocrites who got Prop H8 passed are actually scientifically proven to be the stupid, superstitious and fearful bastards we know they are!
Dabq
@Dan: What a crock, you hate them like the majority of posters here do, they hate us, what’s getting accomplished? Oh yeah, the Mormon and Catholic churches filled in the gap, and, they will be around even after the black guy in the WH can’t run anymore, so, maybe your hate of blacks needs to be directed to the real reason Prop 8 lost and will again unless there is outreach to the black and Latino’s and gay posters here get over thier own hate and sterotypes, although that won’t happen on a site that encourages it.
I would vote against gay issue after reading the hatred spewed here.
Dabq
@Captain Freedom (HRC doesn’t speak for me): You pegged it, too bad so many who have issues with race, while squawking that they are, cough, cough, victims of discrimination when they are no better than the Mormons and Catholics who funded Prop 8 can’t figure it out.
M Shane
It should come as no suprise that the WASP’s have the most interest in respectability, which thhey think that marriage will bring: so that they’re like mom and dad. It’s so obvious and ignorant that the people who pushed this freak into our lives were unltra right wing bozo’s Anrew Sullivan and Bruce Bawer.
Nobody bright or involved with gay liberation would touch this. People who know what it is to be authentically associated with being part of a minority and proud have anything to do with marriage.
It just part of the assimilation movement always has been-a new closet.
schlukitz
@emma:
“Time we enacted some actual outreach for a change.”
Yep. Some major butt-kissing is called for here.
And just when did the civil-rights of a minority group, any minority group for that matter, become an item that can be voted on by the majority? It’s a clear violation of our Bill of Rights and our Constitution.
Seriously, however, it’s a pretty sad commentary on the horrible state of politics in this country, when the civil-rights of millions of people are dependent on the religious mores and mood of other minority groups who need to be “educated” and “reached out” to with our tax dollars.
Perhaps the United Negro College Fund would do well to take another look at it’s campaign logo “A Mind is a Terrible Waste”.
The National Organization for Women is complaining that Affirmative action, the set of public policies and initiatives designed to help eliminate past and present discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin, is under attack.
http://www.now.org/nnt/08-95/affirmhs.html
Since 1941, the black community has had the full support and the taxpayer backed financial assistance of the federal government to assist them with the their integration into the fabric of American society. This includes our gay tax dollars, lest anyone not be following me.
Perhaps it is time that we enacted some actual outreach for the LGBT community for a change?”
I, for one, am sick and tired of traveling on this one way street, where one minority groups gets everything it wants, while another (LGBT people) has to beg for table scraps and crumbs.
schlukitz
@Dabq:
“maybe your hate of blacks needs to be directed to the real reason Prop 8 lost and will again unless there is outreach to the black and Latino’s and gay posters here get over thier own hate and sterotypes, although that won’t happen on a site that encourages it.”
Umm. Hello?
Was it we gays who put your black rights up to an illegal vote at the ballot box? Did we start with you?
The hatred of blacks for queers was what took away a right we had already won in California.
All you are doing is justifying that hatred of gays and now you are turning it around, just like the Catholic Church and the Mormons and saying we deserved what we got?
FUCK YOU.
If you are waiting for me to kiss your ass for my rights, it’s never gonna happen. You didn’t win your rights by a vote of the populace. The only way we LGBT people are ever going to get our rights, is the way y’all did.
By Legislation!!!
omgyawu
The people in this forum are pretty petty…and pretty racist. (shock). So…i’ll just say that much of the debate about race/sexuality issues completely ignores the fact that there are people that fall into both categories here (black and gay), and that the destructive language used above (i’m thinking of schlukitz) is an affront to both communities.
TANK
Oh god…I’m so sick of the reality barrier, and as proof, I’m not going to explain what I mean by that.
schlukitz
@TANK:
No need to, Tank. A good many of the posters on threads like this do not want to hear the truth anyway.
They prefer being ostriches with their heads buried in their, er, ah…sand?
schlukitz
@omgyawu:
There is nothing “destructive” about calling attention to the facts as they qctually are. If you don’t like my bringing your attention to them, then do not shoot me; I’m only the messenger. Shoot the people who brought these horrendous circumstances for LGBT people into existence.
We did not ask to be born gay or choose it as a life style as the Religious Right, which includes a broad spectrum of people including whites, blacks and Latinos, state with no empirical evidence to back that blatant lies up and use them as a divisive tool with which to attack us.
There is plenty of blame to go around and I will hold the feet of any and all groups of people who discriminate and participate in the destruction of and the withholding of civil-rights to the LGBT community, to the fire.
I am not the affront to the community as you charge me, Sir. It is the people who who stand up for and support bigotry and hatred, with their bibles and their dollars, that are the affront to both communities. I should not have to kiss-up to them after a lifetime of queer-bashing and having my eyes blackened at every available opportunity. I am not a punching bag in a gym whose function it is to take physical abuse.
I didn’t write discrimination into our Bill of Rights or our Constitution. The Religious Right did, and that includes members of their multitudinous flocks of all strips and colors.
You want to defend these people, you go right ahead. Anyone with a lick of sense on these threads, will be able to see for themselves who the real affront to both communities is.
SM
Maybe it’s time to start reminding the African American Community that one of MLK’s closest advisors and man behind the March on Washington was gay.
Bayard Rustin.
Make them uncomfortable and nonexcusable in their bigotry.
Dabq
@schlukitz: Tsk, tsk, yet another bitter home bound poster without a clue! First off check your racism boo, I’m not black, so, as usual, the typical Queerty, shrill poster is wrong, and, second, if anyone took away your alleged “rights” it was the Mormon church, so, check yourself, as for the petty flame, sorry, don’t want bitter, clueless trolls who are racist and gay as they aren’t worth doing in my book, but, thanks just the same. Now, go take your anger and rage out at the bar.You racist gays are worse than anyone on earth, and, then you think someone is going to vote for your “rights?” Por favor chump.
HatingObama
History always repeats itself – in this case, the previous objects of discrimination, African-Americans, are now the discriminators. And don’t give me that “it’s because of the bible” shit because the bible was used against them in the past and they should know better. I can’t wait for the next African-American to pull out their race card. I will gladly point out to them that those cards are NO LONGER valid as we now have a black president and they are the ones who are spouting their bigotry at all corners of the country (like Marion Barry, Senator Diaz, and President Obama).
I’m really sorry I campaigned for him, donated to him and voted for Obama.
Dabq
@SM:Actually it would make more sense to bridge bridges and explain why the fight for gay equality is important, the issue is that white gays refuse to see that many, and, not just blacks as just as many whites voted against Prop 8, why its unfair to put laws in to discriminated based on so called faith. But on a site like this which is hardly good for much other than gossip and half-naked, porno guys, that gets lost. That said, few if any of the posters here have a clueless to even how explain why they are angry and upset, all they do is spew the hate of the privileged white men, and, like it or not, who are mad that they didn’t get what they wanted, totally oblivious to the fact that there are black gays, Hispanics and Asians who also suffer, and usually far more in their communities under homophobia. Sites like this seem to be blind to the fact there is such a thing as a non-white gay person as does the so called gay leadership, if had they took the time to find out, they could have combated the lies by the Mormon’s and Catholics in those communities.
Dabq
@HatingObama: As is your right to hate, although to hate someone who could care less about you is a waste of energy, although that seems to be the mantra of posters here, next time don’t give him or the DNC a penny, vote GOP.
Dick Mills
What this poll (and all of the others which have basically said the same thing) is that we need to be working very diligently to ensure that we get as many college students registered as possible. And, that they are engaged enough to get out and vote. The over 65 crowd is really the only demographic that really hurts us at the ballot box, and there are statistics that suggest that between 2% and 3% of them die off every year. So, over time attrition will benefit us greatly.
But even in the shorter term, getting every eligible college student registered and out to vote should be our goal. Even in schools like Pepperdine (and some of the other religious institutions) I think you will find that the vote is similarly skewed toward our side.
Lily
um…sounds like
The educated and NON RELIGIOUS aren’t afraid of the boogeyman punishing them for supporting same-sex marriage.
jason
You have to wonder whether we should take civil rights back from blacks. After all, if a black can vote to take away the rights of a gay minority, I don’t see why we can’t vote to take rights away from a black minority.
Overall, this just cements my view that blacks are racist, sexist, homophobic, and all-round backward.
jason
Let’s not forget appalling black music of the rap variety, a genre which promotes homophobic attacks against men and sexist treatments of women.
schlukitz
@Dabq:
Well. The mystery has been solved. Now we understand why the race card was played.
I would vote against gay issue after reading the hatred spewed here
If that is all it would take, then I do not get that you the indefatigable fighter for gay issues you represent yourself to be. Then again, since you revealed yourself as a Log Cabin GOPer, the comment you made is quite understandable.
They don’t support gay issues either.
But hey. That’s okay. Just keep playing that ole race card. Like the religious right with their bible, it’s really the only argument either of you have and it no longer holds as much water as it once did.
Eventually, everyone has to deal with the reality of how things actually are, not as we’d like to see them.
schlukitz
@Lily:
The educated and NON RELIGIOUS aren’t afraid of the boogeyman punishing them for supporting same-sex marriage
TouchĂŠ.
Why drink Kool-Aid when we can drink Champagne? đ
Random Gay Guy
@Jason
Once again I don’t think blatant racism is the answer. The black community is not at fault for your rights being put up for a vote. Secondly, It wasn’t the votes of the black community alone that caused prop 8 to get passed. Other racial groups voted for the ban. Pinning it on one group is just wrong. Don’t even try the they voted our rights away bullshit, just so you can make yourself feel ok for being a racist.
The reason why the civil rights advances were never put to a vote is because most of the advances were verdicts by the Supreme Court of the US.
It is the fucked up referendum system in California that should be given the blame. Also, since we brought up the issue of constitutional rights. The way the Constitution works is that the SCOTUS has to rule that a certain right is guaranteed in the constitution. Until there is a successful federal challenge of prop 8 that brings about a ruling that states that it is unconstitutional to withhold marriage from same-sex couples, we will always be subjected to the political challenges of hate groups like NOM. Thanks to the Supremacy clause, a federal ruling would undo all of the constitutional bans and shitty propositions within the individual states.
schlukitz
From the Pew Forum. http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=38
Part 1: Opinion of Homosexuals
White evangelicals are much more negative, with 69% unfavorable (including 47% very unfavorable) and only 22% favorable. Black Protestants also hold generally unfavorable views (62% unfavorable, 27% favorable)
As can be seen from the statistics of this study, calling attention to the high number of black protestants who hold unfavorable views of homosexuals, is no more racist than drawing attention to the high number of white evangelicals who who hold unfavorable views of homosexuals. The numbers are what they are; a barometer of how both groups feel toward homosexuals.
And a person who accuses another of being racist, simply for bringing these statistics forward for unbiased examination, is a person who is in denial and simply unwilling to see things as they really are.
To argue that educated, white homosexuals need to reach out for approval and support and convince demographic blocks of people who are brainwashed by their religion to believe that homosexuals are an abomination unto God; that homosexuals are sinful and demonic and are going straight to hell, is as idiotic and fruitless as arguing with a tree to give us more shade or a mountain to move out of the way and stop blocking our passage. Why is not their god and their preachers telling their flocks to be reaching out to us if they truly believe in god’s love and all that good stuff?
All that aside, however, and more importantly, why should our civil-rights be dependent on how anyone feels about them. It’s not their decision to make, no more than it is the right of gays to vote on the right of blacks to marry whom hey choose, sit where they like and drink out of any water fountain that they choose to.
Black people were not obliged to conduct an “outreach” program to get gays to help them in their struggle, nor did any of their leaders instruct them to. Gays, better than anyone else, understood the sting of discrimination and the unfairness of being treated as a second-class citizens. They did not need to be reached out to, convinced or prodded to come to the aid of black people, as many LGBT people did. We were able to see for ourselves that there was a terrible wrong here…and that wrong needed to be corrected.
If we were able to reach out to the blacks community when they needed us, why is it that they now find themselves unwilling to reach out to us?
Oh, of course. I forgot. Da bible says homosexuality is wrong.
And three of a kind (bigotry, hatred and discrimination) trumps one of a kind (racism).
schlukitz
@Random Gay Guy:
It wasn’t the votes of the black community alone that caused prop 8 to get passed
That’s true. It wasn’t. But if we are going to give the black community a free pass, then shouldn’t we be giving one to the Catholics and the Mormons as well using that same line of reasoning?
Would it not be just as unfair to lay the blame for our loss of our rights squarely at the feet of the Catholic Church or at the doorstep of the Mormon Church in Salt Lake City?
Using a childish sounding argument that sounds like “Well, they were throwing stones, so we picked up some stones and threw them too”, to lessen the hatefulness and the impact of the black Yes vote on Prop.8 doesn’t cut it. It does not lessen their share of responsibility in this heinous act nor will be just sit back and allow themselves to pat themselves on the back for wha they did to us.
We can argue until the cows come home as to what percentage of black the black vote represented in stipping us gays of our civil-rights in California, but the fact remains, given the slim 2% margin that the bigtots won by, had the blacks (or the Latinos) sided with us and voted No on Prop. 8, that would have been enough to tip the balance in our favor.
There are those of you who insist on calling those who present the facts as they actually happened, racists if you like, but what does that make the blacks who voted to take yours and my rights away from us?
Heros? Of, perhaps Angels in the eyes of their sky-daddy?
comment
schlukitz
Typo: Of should be Or.
SM
I don’t think talking about which communities voted against you makes you racist. People do it all the time on political issues.
It’s what exit polls are for etc.
The Majority of African Americans in America do not stand up for Marriage Equality. That is a FACT and they should be ashamed of themselves considering their own fights.
schlukitz
@SM:
Bayard Ruskin was fay
Absolutely. And this link is but one of many such links to be found in a Google search that will back that claim up.
schlukitz
Sorry. It’s late. Bayard Ruskin was not fay. He was gay. Honest Injun. LOL
If dropping a sexual hairpin is a Freudian slip, what would one call this, I wonder?
take a breath
Note to all reading this: The majority of white gay people are NOT the racists that this comment thread would suggest they are. Please do not judge us all by these comments!
The gay rights movement is one comprised of people of every color. Black people have been part of this movement, as have white people. The gay rights movement *DOES NOT* belong to any one ethnic group or one race. The “us” vs “them” mentality present on this page falsely defines the gay movement as a white movement, that is threatened by black people. This is offensive and completely off the mark.
Shame on Schulkitz and Jason for perpetuating this misconception.
What’s more, music like hip hop, is not the province of any one ethnic group- please see the homophobic lyrics of Eminem, who is a rapper, and yes, white.
SM
@schlukitz:
LOL…I just have a feeling many African Americans do not really know the full history of their own civil rights struggles and the people behind it.
Now go be an “angelic troublemaker” đ
SM
I’m not against African Americans at all. I’m a huge civil rights person. I love MLK. I just don’t think many Americans, white and black, learn history anymore.
“What this community needs is a group of angelic troublemakers” Bayard Rustin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ8hgzvDs5g
schlukitz
@SM:
Sadly, this is quite so, SM. Just as many LGBT people do not really know the full history of their civil rights struggles and the people behind it.
And hence the expression “Walk a mile in another mans moccasins”.
schlukitz
@take a breath:
Shame on Schulkitz and Jason for perpetuating this misconception
Do have another sip on the Kool-Aid. It’s a real knock-out, I’, told. ;P
What’s more, music like hip hop, is not the province of any one ethnic group- please see the homophobic lyrics of Eminem, who is a rapper, and yes, white
Quite so. And who did Eminem copy his rap style from, pray tell?
Like all the white boys who run around with the crotch of their jeans down to their knees and their butt crack showing trying to be just like the black boys so they will be accepted by them.
When the black boys start wearing their jockey shorts on their heads and go bare-assed to apply for a job, will white boys be copying that too for acceptance?
itsnotme
wheres the asians? Were one of the biggest supports of same-sex marriage too ! The only coloured ethnic to vote down prop.8.
jason
Some African-Americans have been wonderful to the gay community over the years. They recognize that ours is a civil rights struggle just as theirs was several decades back.
However, there is a cultural imperative within the black community which points to a general homophobia. By “cultural imperative”, I’m referring to a driving force within the black community that determines how black people must feel and think on issues.
Anthony in Nashville
@HatingObama:
I have a question for all the people who are saying they wish they had not voted for Obama. Was your support based on a belief that Obama would focus on gay people, or that gays would somehow be able to tell Obama what to do? Was your opinion of black people going to be based on how Obama catered to gays?
I have read so many comments from gays that come down to “I gave Obama money, therefore I get to decide his priorities.”
If that was your sole motive for voting for him, you supported him for the wrong reason.
During the campaign, he said he was trying to offer something for everybody. I don’t believe you can satisfy everyone in politics, so I suspected people were going to be upset with him rather quickly.
African-Americans, a group that is more numerous, less wealthy, and supported Obama to a greater extent than gays, have not been complaining how he “hasn’t done anything for us,” although they may have a more legitimate claim.
Anthony in Nashville
@jason:
Thanks for showing your true colors, but you need to quit whining.
Who put Prop 8 on the ballot, spent the most money on it, and had the most activists working to get it passed? White people.
Who are the most outspoken, highest profile homophobes in the United States? White people.
Who wrote DOMA and Don’t Ask Don’t Tell? White people.
What group has the highest population, meaning their support is essential for any law that gets passed? White people.
Stop acting like white folks are so pure and have nothing but the fondest feelings for gays, and realize they are the main reason gays are fighting for legal equality.
Landon Bryce
Anthony,
Some African Americans were upset that Obama boycotted a conference on racism called by a leader who is this weekend executing his own people in the streets. The strongest criticism that sane people have launched is that we should have sent representatives who should have then walked out.
But–
There are African Americans on Obama’s cabinet.
He did not install the most anti-African American Democrat governor in the United States as head of the DNC.
Politics is people. Obama does not hate gay people, but he has surrounded himself with people who do. The highest ranking gay person in his administration is the HR manager. We’re the help in the White House, to the extent that we are visible at all. This is where Obama has truly failed us, and why he will continue to: our voices are missing from his administration. As far as I can see, of course, all of the anti-gay bigots Obama has attached himself to, as opposed to those who have attached themselves to him, are white. African American bigotry against gay people is not a problem in the Obama White House: it’s that the African American in charge is listening to the wrong whites.
galefan2004
This news is far from surprising. It might as well read, the most likely to be educated and the most likely to turn away from the stupidity of religion are the most likely to support scientific reasoning. That is really what it is about. The young whites with educations normally end up downplaying or abandoning religion. Where as the young blacks (even the educated ones) are more likely to adhere to religion because their families constantly push it down their throats in such a dynamic that they actually start to believe it.
galefan2004
@Captain Freedom (HRC doesn’t speak for me): Concentration camps? Nah! De-programing camps? Definitely. After all these people still believe you can’t give gays rights because they are just mentally unhealthy people that can be changed. They back their stupidity with the ideas of sociologist and psychologist that have long been removed from the main stream because of their own stupidity.
Victor
@Dabq:
Hello?! Big difference, the people that voted for prop 8, voted to take away a right from a group of people because of who and what they are (gay).
This anger we have is not directed at people because of the color of their skin it’s because they voted to take our rights away! If these are the facts, these are the facts.
galefan2004
@Dick Mills: The young educated college vote was at an all time high in 2008 because of Obama. You really won’t see the majority of this crowd vote again until 2012 (again because of Obama). The truth is that the majority of the college aged crowd just doesn’t really give a damn about politics.
galefan2004
@itsnotme: I do love my Asians, but lets be honest, most of the time you people are more educated and dare I say smarter than the average white, so while we are intimidated by you, you normally come across as the “acceptable” minority.
schlukitz
@Anthony in Nashville:
So you are saying essentially that it was okay that the blacks marched on Washington, DC and burned neighborhoods down when their demands were not met, but when gays ask for their civil-rights which blacks incidentally tell us more often than not, are not the same thing, then we are labeled as selfish and told by you that we voted for Mr. Obama for the wrong reasons.
White or otherwise, we are all taxpaying citizens who have a right to speak out when we are treated as second-class citizen just as the blacks once were and our President chooses to ignore us as he has demonstrated for the past six months since taking office and we are getting just a wee bit tired of being told to move to the back of the bus and to sit down and shut up by LGBT people who think the only way to get anywhere, is to suck up to the people in power.
yo-yo the rrm
This community seems to continue to revel in the fantasy that because blacks at one time were oppressed, they should automatically supportive of the LGBT cause.
History never worked this way. There was always a rational reason for denying African Americans their rights, and only THEY and their sympathizers saw it as a civil rights struggle, same with woman suffrage, and all the other struggles including this one.
We also shouldn’t be intimidated by religion. If white protestants can vote against their church, so can black protestants. The difference, perhaps, is that the white people know more gay people than black people.
The LGBT community needs to stop using the secular intellectual arguments that only appeal to young white college-educated liberals, and needs to start appealing to emotion and religion. Take a page from the HRC and pressure your local faith leaders to support LGBT equality. Religion can be a negative influence as it is now, or can be a positive influence, bussing people to the polls to vote for us, instead of against us.
schlukitz
@galefan2004:
You hit the nail directly on the head.
Education = More intelligence and less reliance on religion, if any. People who use their minds to figure things out are less likely to be duped.
Lack of education = Less intelligence and more reliance on religion. Lacking the powers of deduction, these people are much more likely to be duped.
It would seem, therefore, that the solution to the problem is more education. The problem, however, is that you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.
schlukitz
@yo-yo the rrm:
This community seems to continue to revel in the fantasy that because blacks at one time were oppressed, they should automatically supportive of the LGBT cause
To a person with a minimum of intelligence (and a heart), that would seem like a logical conclusion. If we are to follow your line of reasoning, then we would have to accept that it is perfectly for the victims of child-beating, to grow up and become child-beaters themselves and that it would be a “fantasy” for us to expect otherwise.
There was always a rational reason for denying African Americans their rights
Some of that positive religious influence you spoke of?
only THEY and their sympathizers saw it as a civil rights struggle
And what do you see it as, a Sunday afternoon tea social?
same with woman suffrage
Misogynist much, do you?
and all the other struggles including this one
Spoken just like a fundamentalist, bigoted homophobe.
We also shouldn’t be intimidated by religion
Oh really now? What would you suggest? That we bow low to the Pope and ask, as Anna in the King of Siam did, “Give us another kick if you would, your Majesty?”
The difference, perhaps, is that the white people know more gay people than black people
Izzatso? Your point???
The LGBT community needs to stop using the secular intellectual arguments that only appeal to young white college-educated liberals
And can you give us a good reason why we should stop appealing to those who are more likely to see our point of view and support us? That comment makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, like pissing on your Petunias. Why?
Take a page from the HRC
No. You take a page from HRC…and wipe your ass with it. That’s all it’s good for!
pressure your local faith leaders to support LGBT equality
Like that is working?
Religion can be a negative influence as it is now, or can be a positive influence
Say like in about another two-thousand years?
bussing people to the polls to vote for us, instead of against us
That’s rich! See my concluding comment in my post number 53.
galefan2004
Religion is not a positive influence. It never has been and it never will be. Religion was designed by the people in power as a way of appeasing the unequal masses. As long as they could keep people thinking if they just sat down shut up and didn’t rock the boat that they would get their true reward in life after this one they didn’t have to deal with people fighting for their reward in this life. That is the problem with every single religion. The christian church is even worse because it exploits man for dollars as well and in return we get the eventual destruction of this world. This world will implode in the next 100 years if we don’t change our ways globally. The reason for that will be overpopulation (because of breeders not because of gays) and the biggest offender and contributor to the end of the world right now is the catholic church that doesn’t believe in birth control even in third world countries where the more kids that are cranked out the more likely it is one or two of them will starve.
Tony
@Captain Freedom (HRC doesn’t speak for me)
Everything you said. Ditto!
Tony
@schlukitz
DITTO!
Dick Mills
@galefan2004: And, they served us well. The fact of the matter is that every year as many as 500,000 new students enter post secondary institutions in California. By 2010, that could be another 600k votes for our side and only 300k for their’s. Coupling that with the fact that as many as 4% to 5% of the old farts who will never vote with us will be gone (permanently) from the voting pool, could be enough to shift the vote for marriage equality.
And, I agree that many of those voters came out only for the presidential election, which is why I reiterated here that we need to make sure that they are engaged in this issue. Engaged enough to get out and vote again in 2010. And, 2008 was a watershed moment in that young voters came out and actually saw that their votes counted, and were rewarded for their effort – getting them out in the short-term future (at least) should be more about substance than anything else.
There are no simple, easy solutions. Regaining the simple dignity of equal civil rights is going to require a lot of work (that and, perhaps, waiting for more of the old fuckers to die off).
yo-yo the rrm
@schlukitz: When I said there was a rational reason for denying African Americans civil rights, I did not mean to say that I personally agreed that it was rational, only that in civil rights struggles, the opposing side does not tend to see it as a civil rights struggle, but as policy proposals. If they did see it as a civil rights struggle, they wouldn’t need more convincing. That’s why you can’t assume that black people automatically can make the connection.
I am yet critical of the antireligious rhetoric that comes out of blogs, not being a religious person myself, because churches, as centralized organizations that are a big part of peoples lives, can be used to bring peoples’ attention to issues they wouldn’t seek information out about for themselves. It’s another place to share personal family stories of discrimination, which change more hearts and minds than abstract talk about freedom and equality.
Why should the LGBT community not continue to pander to “those most likely to see our point of view and support us”? Because you risk splitting people into factions based on age or race, which makes people feel sectional pressure and dig in their heels when everyone has the potential to support civil rights. Consider the black gay person who, with no mainstream support from supposedly grassroots organizations, is forced to choose allegiances between her color and her sexuality? Look beyond your own demographic.
Michael W.
Latinos seem to be more civilized than blacks from what I’ve seen. As we can see from these poll numbers, we’re better off going after them. If we can add enough Latinos to our coalition, we won’t need the blacks.
afrolito
Wow…the racism here never ends.
Tony
The homophobia never ends as well. One is no worse than the other….
Just sayin’.
Except LGBT people are the only ones who do not have equal rights, and of course we never had an affirmative action program to get us into Harvard, so….
razz
shocking *rolls eyes*
afrolito
@Tony:
You’re a dumbass.
Just sayin…
When Harvard was an ALL WHITE institution for most of it’s existence. An intelligent person might come to the conclusion that it was racist, and practicing the most blatant form of affirmative action ever. Of course, you being stupid, missed the ridiculous flaw in your logic. And for the record, most black people, and others of color are at Harvard, because they are academically gifted. Unlike you, who I hope learned a trade somewhere.
Despite the white racist face of the “community”, LGBT people are racially diverse, and have to deal with racism in and outside of the “community”. The new battle cry of the “oppressed white fags” will continue to fall on deaf ears as long as they use people of color (blacks in particular) as punching bags for their own latent racism.
TANK
@afrolito:
You didn’t go to harvard. Harvard is a safety school.
Tony
I went to a top law school, no affirmative action for “teh gays”. I had to get in with my grades and LSAT score. I know how AF/Action works. I have seen it in action. Lower scores and lower grades get certain groups in. This special criteria is used for certain groups. BTW I went to a UC (University of California) law school. No affirmative action, and only those with top LSAT scores and grades need apply.
How is that for being a “dumbass”???
Anthony in Nashville
@schlukitz:
You raise an interesting point comparing black riots like Watts, Detroit, and LA after Rodney King to the level of anger in gay people right now.
It’s understandable to want to react with rage when you feel you’re being wronged, but those riots ultimately harmed those black neighborhoods (most of them never recovered), and I think gays run the risk of causing great harm if we act out of anger instead of having a plan.
That is what I meant when I talked about gays voting for Obama for the wrong reasons. It seems that gays do not have a plan for achieving equality. There was the state by state, leading up to the Supreme Court approach, but once Obama was elected, people decided that course of action was insufficient. I believe many thought Obama would take the responsibility of making gay rights his first priority.
And that’s where I look at the timing of our outrage. True enough, Obama talked a great game when he was campaigning and hadn’t delivered, but six months is not a lot of time. As much as I dislike admitting it, gay rights is a very contentious issue and focusing on gay issues is probably not the wisest use of any political capital Obama has.
I like the idea of withholding funds from the DNC until we hear of a concrete plan about Obama’s plans for making gays equal. I know HRC claimed he had a plan, but I never heard those details. There is a level of rage/hate for Obama that I did not see while Clinton and GW Bush were in office.
I do not think Obama is homophobic, but like most straights, he isn’t thinking gay people are the most pressing issue. We need to maintain the pressure, but the comments I am reading on the internet sound like people are approaching that dangerous level of “fuck it” where we react without considering the consequences.
We can’t expect Obama to come in and make everything okay for gays. We still have to do the work, whether that be by working on the local level, identifying and supporting gay or gay friendly politicians, making sure our organizations are living up to their responsibility, and letting people know who we are instead of relying on the media to define our community.
afrolito
@Tony:
You’re still a dumbass and a racist to boot.
How is that?
“Teh gays” are not a racial monolith.
And since you claim to have attended UC, and only those with top LSAT scores need apply, i’m guessing the blacks who graduate from there muust be steller students with top LSAT scores……since there’s no affirmative action.
Dumbass.
TANK
Yeah, you’re wasting your time reasoning with afrolito. There’s no rhyme to it. He’s mindlessly parroting his slander of choice “racist” again, and it won’t stop until everyone starts to believe the beautiful people myth.
TANK
I like affirmative action. It sounds so affirming. Besides, the more college grads we can get into communities that it is relevant, the better we’ll do in polling.
TANK
@TANK:
as a temporary policy.
schlukitz
@yo-yo the rrm:
Consider the black gay person who, with no mainstream support from supposedly grassroots organizations, is forced to choose allegiances between her color and her sexuality?
Thank you for explaining to me why Obama is “digging in his heels” against the GLBT community with his defense of DOMA.
Demographics is a real “toughie” for folks like me!
Michael W.
@TANK: Afrolito does have a point, however. Don’t gay minorities get access via affirmative action?
Tony, like too many of us, wrongly views the gay community as one large swath of white people if you go by his words.
I also agree that you have to be academically gifted to gain entrance to Ivy League schools like Harvard. They’re not selecting random minorities off the street for admission in order to fill a quota. Their presence and education shouldn’t be regarded as any less valuable because of the color of their skin.
schlukitz
@Anthony in Nashville:
Thank you for your thoughtful response. You make some very good points.
Like yourself, I too would like to believe that Obama is not homophobic. That would be a bad omen for us and a bellwether of what we can expect or not expect from him over the next three and a half years.
I don’t think anyone in the LGBT community including myself really expects Obama to come in and make everything ok for the gays. That would be totally unrealistic. I think we can agree, however, that asking him to fulfill the promises me made to us during his campaign is not too presumptuous of us or unrealistic in our expectations of him. This is a matter of integrity and either he has it or he doesn’t. And if he doesn’t have it, god help us all.
And like you, I too am concerned that people are reaching the level of “fuck it” where they will react without concern for theconsequences. History has proven to us, dramatically I might add, this this is precisely what happens when people reach the breaking because no one is willing to acknowledge them hear them out and do anything to assauge their anger. What is happening in Iran at this very moment is a good point of illustration.
Say what you will, however, you must admit that Watts, Detroit and LA did get the ball rolling for the blacks and Stonewall got the ball rolling for the gays. Reaching across the aisle and talking is all well and fine if it brings about the change that Mr. Obama keeps telling us about. But, when it produces nothing but a pile of bullshit, then clearly, another course of action is needed to correct a situation that has, for far too long, sat on the back of the stove where it keeps getting shoved to.
BrianZ
@Michael W.: Sexual preference is not part of any legal affirmative action policy that I’ve ever seen(still possible, I don’t read them all.) It certainly isn’t at the federal level. If it were, such laws as DOMA and DADT would be much easier to overturn as queers would be part of the protected classes defined by the uhm laws, statutes, executive orders and judicial opinions that combine to provide affirmative action.
Not to say that companies cannot and do not include sexual perference in their own policy, because they do. However an applicant would earn no “points” for being queer.
schlukitz
@Michael W.:
Don’t gay minorities get access via affirmative action
The answer to your question is no, they don’t.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Taking+affirmative+action:+do+gays+deserve+the+same+boost+into…-a0159593303
Tony
Afrolito:
“And since you claim to have attended UC, and only those with top LSAT scores need apply, i’m guessing the blacks who graduate from there muust be steller students with top LSAT scoresâŚâŚsince there’s no affirmative action.
Dumbass.”
Actually, there were all of three AFAM students when I attended. Many, many gays however. And uh, we got in the old fashioned way. We earned it.
Tony
Yes they “muust”. LOL!
afrolito
@Tony:
So the gays earned their way into UC? How exactly would you know that? Did you take a straw poll of all the gays who ever attended UC yourself? How many of the gays who attended UC were also people of color?…..Oh I forgot you think ALL gay people are WHITE.
Also…
How do you know that those 3 “AFAM” students were there because of affirmative action? Did you ask them? I’m assuming you were close personal friends with all of them, since you’re such a great guy.
What you are is a fucking racist douchebag.
Michael W.
@BrianZ: Yes, they may not get access on the basis of their sexuality but gay minorites can still benefit on the basis of their race. That was my point. So the claim that there is no affirmative action for gays, at all, could only be true if all gays were white.
And what about lesbians who benefit from affirmative action programs for females? What about gay men of all colors who served in the armed forces that benefit from affirmative action programs for veterans?
There’s myriad ways for gays to take advantage of affirmative action, just not their sexuality.
Brian Miller
This entire discussion is a great example of why most Americans don’t give a flying f*** about identity politics of any sort. It inevitably degenerates into a screaming match between different self-identities trying to assert themselves as the “most oppressed” and the other person as the “oppressor.”
These “debates” have absolutely, positively NO VALUE WHATSOEVER.
BrianZ
@Brian Miller: They count as page hits for Queerty, which has value in their ad revenue. ;o)
schlukitz
@Michael W.:
It would appear that you are trying to make a point with BrianZ where there is no point to be made. You have reached an illogical conclusion based on hyperbole.
You asked a general, unqualified question and taht question was “Don’t gay minorities get access via affirmative action?”
You received a negative from two different posters plus a link to a site that also answered your question in the negative.
Gay minorities refers to the sexual orientation of a diverse group of people including whites, blacks, latinos, Asians, Indians and yes, even physically and mentally challenged people. Any specific group of people who have not been mentioned here was not intentional.
That blacks get access to affirmative action was a given and thus moot, so the only logical answer to your question was no, gay minorities do not get access to affirmative action for the most part, since blacks, both male and female are a small minority within a minority.
Your assertion that Gays and lesbians in the armed forces benefit from Affirmative action programs for veterans is a strawman argument, since DADT would not allow any of these people access to any benefit programs were they to make their sexual orientation known to the military. Gays are receiving these benefits only because they are keeping their gayness under wraps. Here again, some 65,000 service people is a very small percentage of the gay population at large so it does not speak for or represent the entire gay community.
Unless you can give us more specific instances to back up your assumption that there’s “myriad” of ways (which means a whole lot) for gays to take advantage of affirmative action, both BrianZ and I would both be disinclined to take your statement at face value.
Tony
@AFrolitotard
“So the gays earned their way into UC? How exactly would you know that? Did you take a straw poll of all the gays who ever attended UC yourself? How many of the gays who attended UC were also people of color?”
Umm we had a gay student club when I was in law school. We had three AFAM students, and yes, they got in based on their high LSAT scores and grades. But there were just three. This is because the UC system does not allow letting people with lower scores and grades in based on previous affirmative action criteria (read race, gender etc.).
Everyone who got it got in based on grades and LSAT score. There were at least 50 LGBT people and they were not all white (many were asian, etc. )
Our great leader Obama went to Harvard, a school that has a very aggressive affirmative action program. Look at their LSAT and GPA range. They let people in based on factors other than grades and LSAT score (read affirmative action standards).
It is merely a simple fact that AA people have enjoyed the benefits of affirmative action programs. Gays never have.
Simple fact. Does the truth hurt that much???
Tony
Correction:
“It is merely a simple fact that AA people have enjoyed the benefits of affirmative action programs. Gays never have.”
Unless they were gays of color, then they enjoyed these benefits based upon race but on on sexual orientation.
Simple truth. How sad that simply stating the truth results in being called a racist. No wonder so many are bullied into not stating what they know is true.
BrianZ
@schlukitz: “Gay minorities” The devil is always in the details. Yes, of course any protected class that also happens to be a queer would still qualify for whatever affirmative action a straight class member would qualify for. Sexual orientation is irrelevant to the discussion of affirmative action. I still don’t get _why_ he would make such an arguement. It almost comes across as saying “everyone who deserves affirmative action already gets it”, ie. white males should never be granted a protected class status.
When I read Michael W’s original post I assumed he meant “gays as a minority” when that obviously wasn’t the case. I’ve heard his logic before. It happened to come from a GOP strategist who was building an arguement against adding sexual orientation to the list of protected classes. I think the parralel speaks for itself.
I am much more interested to see what this SCOTUS does with the affirmative action cases this summer.
strumpetwindsock
@Tony:
Of course it is not racist to point out that affirmative action programs exist.
The problem is when one thinks it is unfair that they exist, or that the people allowed into schools through those programs did nothing to earn their positions.
schlukitz
@BrianZ:
“Gay minorities”. Ah yes. That is a tricky little word trap, isn’t it? Like you, I too assumed he meant “Gays as a minority”.
Either way. however, his case falls flat on it’s face like the parralel wth the GOP strategist that you spoke of.
It will, indeed, be interesting to see what this SCOTUS does with the affirmative action cases this summer.
afrolito
@Tony:
You’re still a fucking racist douchbag, and you have’nt pointed out any great truths….just bullshit.
How do you know those 3 “AFAM” students got in based on their race? I’m sure they didn’t tell your racist ass that. When exactly did you graduate from UC? 1965? I find it extremely hard to believe that there were only 3 black people attending UC this century.
Like I said further up, WHITE PEOPLE have been the biggest benefactors of of AFFIRMATIVE ACTION (WHITE PRIVILEGE) since this country was founded. WHITE PEOPLE (WHITE FAGS INCLUDED) have NEVER been denied access to any institution in this country based on the color of their skin or their sexual orientation (WHICH THEY CAN HIDE).
Affirmative action was set up to address past and present inequalities due to inherent institutionalized racism in the system. So once again, white fags can go cry a fucking river on deaf ears.
And yes, our great leader Barack Obama got into Harvard, and actually excelled there in every possible way. I’m sure in your mind he only got in because he’s black. Never mind the fact that he’s extremely intelligent and accomplished.
Meanwhile our last “great leader” George dumbfuck Bush, also attended Harvard, and managed to distiguish himself with a fucking C average on a good semester. I wonder how he got in? I’m sure it had nothing to do with the waspy Bush family pedigree and connections. Maybe he got a cheerleading scholarship.
TANK
Affirmative action includes race, gender and ethnicity into account. When straight kids drop out of high school due the the homophobia they perpetuate at the same rate as lgbt students (very high rates), then you’ll have a point about affirmative action not applying to lgbt kids who are victims of institutional bigotry. There is a legitimate grievance that because of the adverse impact lgbt drop out rates in HS have, that how we are being impacted as a community as a direct result, we should be taken into account in that metric.
The biggest benefactor of affirmative action has been women, and particularly white women as they are the majority of women in this country.
Michael W.
@BrianZ: You must be a fucking idiot to believe I meant “gays as a minority” when I typed “gay minorities.” Or was it hard to conjure up thoughts of gay people who don’t look like you and your circle of exclusively white friends?
A Google search for “gay minorities” results in a multitude of choices dealing with gay people of color. So it looks like the words aren’t very confusing to anyone else. Maybe if your mind wasn’t as dense as a brick and didn’t envision every gay man as Topher Grace, you and that other asshat would’ve been able to get the picture.
RainaWeather
@SM: You are right. I am deeply ashamed of myself.
WTF
Hellooooo. Asian Americans anyone??? Asian Americans??? Where’s there statistic??? Didn’t they vote in similar numbers as whites in the state overall?? UGH WTF!!!! Once again, swept under the rug without even so much as a blip. I salute you, the invisible Asian American.
Landon Bryce
@afrolito:
Tony is being shockingly racist throughout this thread, as are a few others. As someone who has argued with you in the past, I want to let you know that I completely agree with you here. Wow. Sorry people are so evil– it does inspire me to try harder myself, though.
andy_d
@emma: As long as people OF ANY RACE are unwilling to challenge their religious leaders on their homophobia, there will always be opposition to same sex marriage.
Also, there needs to be acknowledgement that racism is not exclusively white. Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, “Avenue Q.” The song “Everyone’s a Little Bit Racist” hits the nail on the head.
Celia
I didn’t read the whole thing (several comments’ worth of “NO U” and other such sophisticated arguments tend to get a little hard to take after a while) so forgive me if someone already pointed this out, but: I was led to believe that California’s black population isn’t actually that large – certainly in comparison to the Latin population, for example. One would assume that, even if the majority of California’s black people did vote yes on 8, it wasn’t the main thing that swung the vote. In fact, the white evangelical vote and the old people vote probably had more of an effect, as percentages go.
Of course, my opinion is technically useless because I’m not even American.
schlukitz
@Celia:
Of course, my opinion is technically useless because I’m not even American
That doesn’t make you a bad person, however. đ
Nor, does it negate your observations or opinions. After all, that’s what blogs are all about, aren’t they?
BrianZ
@Michael W.: *giggle* What a shallow, angry, ugly person you are. It must be hell living in that peanut of a mind. I feel bad for you.
edgyguy1426
@Brian Miller: It’s a giant pissing match.@Celia: I’m not sure if the Latino population in California was broken down in terms of voting eligibility i.e. resident aliens, guest workers, and you have to think in terms of the percentage of those eligible to vote that actually cast a vote. When you break down a large group and then break it down again in the terms, the Latino group might have been actually smaller than the African American one. I think I read that the yes on 8 vote was only about 1% different between these groups.
Tony
@ afrolito
Retard. I graduated in 2001. Prop 209 in California eliminated affirmative action. Read the numbers on AFAM admissions following the elimination of affirmative action. Two or three per year in the UC law schools. You ignorant retard.
schlukitz
@Tony:
Afrolito doesn’t like to be confused by the facts.
He’s already made up his mind, you see. ;o)
M Shane
I’m not sure how the subject shifted from a discussion of WASP queers primarily supporting the mariage/assimilation idea to Proposition 8.
It has been well established from the beginning that there simply weren’t enough blacks in California to kick an anthill, yet affect the proposition one way or another.
After all the time you’ve spent hollering irrelivantly, I think it would be just great to jump off your broken records and address the question which I think asks the question of why do young whites seek this respectability card so rabidly, and not other sub minorities.
This is not to say that marriage is anything but a myth, but why do whites think that they can “pass’ better.