By 10am PST, we should know whether California’s gays can start getting married again — or whether the Yes on 8 crew succeeded all the way from the ballot box to the State Supreme Court. Tensions are high. Demonstrations on both sides of the issue are planned. And no matter what the Court decides, there will be uproar. From whom, though, is the question. So in the final hours of limbo, what do all the facts, analysis, and your heart tell you the Supremes will do?
Bri
Good luck Californians. Rip it up if you don’t win.
D-Sun
“Uphold Prop 8, and ban all same-sex marriages (past and present).”
Expect the worst, and you can’t be disappointed.
Myles
I will lose all respect in Gays and Lesbians EVERYWHERE if they comeback and uphold Prop 8 and we don;t do something drastic and start making a stand. We cannot allow this whole “writing discrimination” into State Consitutions to contine. It should not be allowed in the first place,
D.J.
Demonstrate all you want to but please no violence. I hope the court relaizes the biggest issue is whether a constitution can be amended to take away human rights by a simple majority of voters.
Oaklander
@D.J.: BULLSHIT! Please be as violent as you can stomach!!!!
Alex
@Myles: What are you planning to do Myles? I’m sick of the denunciations of the community by people who don’t do anything.
@Oaklander: Turn to violence and all you’ll get is violence in return. The haters and the cops are a lot better at using violence than we are.
Bri
I’m hoping today won’t be a violent day but I suspect there will be a lot of disruption.
JohnVisser
Not that I am advocating violence, but it seems to me, historically speaking, that things in this country do not change without some level of violence.
ask ena
@JohnVisser:
and/or a shitload of cash.
Stef
There seems to be doubt everywhere about Pro 8. being shut down, but I am not sure if I missed an article or something on WHY exactly everyone is thinking that…. but I’m hoping the Cali. SC has seen the progress in Iowa, New Hampshire (er…sort of), how Massachussetts has still survived, etc…I’m hoping common sense will overrule a minor majority.
And how stupid is it to ban gay marriages but allow the ones that already took place to remain so? It’s basically saying yeah it’s okay but because a barely larger percentage of assholes don’t think it’s okay, we gotta make it so it doesn’t happen again.
SO DUMB
Larry
My big worry about protests getting out of hand if the court upholds Prop. 8 is that there’s no doubt the Talibangelicals will use it to their advantage and say “See? This is proof that homosexuals don’t respect the will of the people.”
Joan
The easy way out for the California Supremes is to uphold Prop 8, but let gay couples who got married stay married. But the legal can of worms that would open is huge. How should states that recognize other states’ same-sex marriages look at a California marriage? Is it recognized or not? And expect a flood of lawsuits from gays who didn’t get married during the legal window: how can a state justify denying marriage to the majority of a class yet uphold the marriages of a small portion of the same class? No matter what the Supremes do, expect the court battles to go on and on like Celine Dion’s heart.
Myles
@Alex:
First off I am planning to head the group from my neck of the woods to the March in Washington in Nov.
Second. I REFUSE to pay anymore Federal Taxes or State Taxes until I am a fully recognized citizen of the United Sates. If they want to lock me up so be it.
Thirdly. I am taking on our local bigot chapter called the CCV (Citizens for Community Values) I am working ym hardest to do what I can to expose them for the homophobic hate mongers they are and am trying dilegently to get their Non profit Status revoked and thier books audited and working with out local liberal weekly newspaper in publicizing who exactly they are and thier connections.
I do what i can. It may not be much. We ALL should do what we can because it all ads up in the end.@Larry:
Larry the the talabanevangelicals are going to spin and use everything to their advantage. Good or bad. So it doesan;t matter.
@JohnVisser:
I agree. I hope there is not violence. BUT there is a BIG difference between Civil Disobedience and Violence.
Attmay
@Larry: The will of the people is unworthy of respect.
California will burn if they don’t vote our way. I will call for a worldwide extermination of the LDS Cult. I’m with Oaklander. Violence is justified when our rights are being denied. You want us to obey the law? Then treat us equally under it.
Tim in SF
@Oaklander: Let the assimilations act like pussies on the sidelines. They never were the ones who got us our rights – it’s always been the marchers and the window-breakers. Let the assimilationists drink champagne with HRC and the Democratic leadership.
I’m in San Francisco. I’ve got my backpack of half-bricks ready to go for this evening if the ruling doesn’t go our way.
kevin (not that one)
I don’t trust ANYONE who says we should be violent if the decision doesn’t go our way. To me, that sounds like an agent provocateur. Regardless if the person saying it is on our side or not, it’s an extremely poor choice of reaction in a democratic society and will only serve to turn public opinion against us if we’re painted (as we will be) as a violent mob who doesn’t respect the civil process.
If I see anyone acting out violently or engaging in property destruction, I will either stop you myself or I will narc you out to the cops. You better believe it. You are not on my side if you give our enemies even more ammo to hurt us.
Jason in WV
Like one of our greatest protesters ever, Mother Jones said, “Pray for the dead, and fight like hell for the living”.
I’m going to be optimistic about this, and vote for the “Nullify Prop 8, and include a nod toward the importance of marriage equality”. Hey, someone’s got to – and I don’t want to believe that it will never happen.
Tim in SF
@Larry: My big worry about protests getting out of hand if the court upholds Prop. 8 is that there’s no doubt the Talibangelicals will use it to their advantage and say “See? This is proof that homosexuals don’t respect the will of the people.”
Dumb argument, Larry.
They are going to say monstrous, horrible things about us no-matter what we do. So, we might as well do what we want.
dgz
@kevin (not that one):
good for you! especially since rioting in SF is very likely to hurt gay business owners and taxpayers.
kevin (not that one)
@Tim in SF: By the way, Tim. That means you.
If I see you with your bag of bricks, it’s on. And I’ll be there at Civic Center tonight.
For anyone interested in non-violent civil disobedience, there will be plenty of that going on today if the court upholds Prop 8 and there will likely be arrests.
So if you do act out violently, you will be virtually indicting the non-violent along with you. And that’s just cowardice and a fucked up act of sabotage.
Again, Tim or whoever, I’m looking out for you and I will tackle your ass or get the cops if I see anything remotely violent.
Kevin IN SAN FRANCISCO
dgz
@Tim in SF: not dumb, if what the Evangelicals say carries weight with the undecided voters because their windows were smashed.
La Roux
@dgz:
DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNNNN
@Tim in SF:
But what would be the practical use of rioting in this case?
Mike
@Stef:
A court would never overturn the a popularly elected amendment. Not even a supreme court is more powerful than voters, they would be going against all precedent if they struck down a popularly elected law. Even decisions of the Supreme Court of the United States can be overturned by a popularly elected constitutional amendment.
emb
Don’t riot. Get up from work and go home. And spend nothing for the rest of the week except at stores that are openly pro-gay (Problem: maybe no food, but lots of rainbow candle holders). A general, organized financial boycott would demonstrate that we’re a force to be reckoned with, and are tired of taking whatever scraps the straight powers deign to toss our way.
The Gay Numbers
@Joan: The easy way out is nonsenical. Either they should uphold the law and overturn the marriage, or overturn. This half measures is making crap out of the law.
SFguy
@Mike
the majority cant rule over a minority. its unconstitutional and the supreme court can overturn the popular vote if they see it fit as unconstitutional.
Jake the libertarian
@D.J.:
To hell with it… Get a little violent if the court upholds H8. Frankly one of the big problems with this modern PC shitty ass world is that people aren’t willing to fight for what they believe in anymore.
Don’t be afraid to make it DANGEROUS for them to discriminate against you. Take what’s yours.
Alec
@Joan:
Indeed. It might create a rational basis problem. I’m sure that the state of California could offer some defenses on the basis of the proposition system itself, but it would create some interesting equal protection issues….federal equal protection issues.
Mike
@SFguy:
But they won’t. The court cannot overturn an amendment, they can overturn a revision of the constitution, which should not be amended to begin with. Hence, the court arguments have nothing to do with whether it was fair for the majority to rule over a minority, but whether the ballot measure was in fact an amendment or a revision.
Tim in SF
You’re a dumb cunt, kevin , who has no appreciation for your own god damn history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Night_riots
Stupid, fearful, assimilationist queers like you make me weep for our future.
The Gay Numbers
That one has to still explain the basic legal question before the court is stunning.
Myles
That its acutally alright for people to vote on others civil right is whats STUNNING and whats worse we allow it and say and do nothing. Even if if prop 8 is overturned we still need to do things. ONLY support gay owned businesses and businesses, states, and people who support us!
hyhybt
I’m hoping it’s struck down, of course, but if they’re going to uphold it I’d they *don’t* let the existing marriages stand. I know that’s hard on the people involved, but it seems like, besides being more consistent, it would make a repeal initiative more likely to succeed.
michael
Today we will see that if California is as spiritually bankrupt as it is financially. I am trying to stay neutral on my expectations but positive with my hope. If the court upholds the ban, and is able to explain why, in other words explain how the constitution did not allow them any other way of ruling then I will respect the court and accept that it is the constitution of California that is fundamentally flawed and needs to be changed. Because any constitution that allows a group of people to be held to a different standard than other groups is flawed at its very core, flawed in a way that is dangerous and evil. I do not believe that the rights of any group should be at the mercy of others. This is going to be very interesting.
Bri
Less than 20 minutes.
Attmay
@michael: If Mexico or the Indians want it back I’m tempted to say let ’em have it.
I will also call for California to lose its statehood.
Just Steve
@Tim in SF:
You’re calling someone assimilationist while waiting for a verdict on gay marriage? Ironic much?
dgz
@Jake the libertarian:
but who would you be fighting? riots are defined by indiscriminate violence. stonewall, etc. were reactions against an abusive authority that was physically present. running around busting windows is just infantile hooliganism, and is just as likely to hurt supporters as it is to harm the opposition.
kevin (not that one)
@Tim in SF: There will be children, families, the elderly, and the disabled at tonight’s event and you want to bring a violent wrath down upon them to play like you’re some bullshit revolutionary.
You don’t have the stamina or courage to fight the more important battles and it’s because of your weakness that Prop 8 passed in the first place.
Now you want to act all tough and play at being a “revolutionary” at the expense of those who’ve put in the hours of work of organizing and trying to change people’s hearts and minds. All that your posing and pretending will do is keep people away from future demonstrations because they are afraid and will give violent people who are anti-gay a license to kill.
You don’t care about that? No, I suspect you don’t. In fact, you’re selfish. Your actions, you believe, only affect yourself. It’s all about what you want. It’s not about those LGBT families, it’s about you.
So go ahead. Be selfish. Get it “off your chest”. Just don’t be surprised when you get knocked to the ground and held there until the police come.
Oh, and there will be plenty of cameras to catch you in the act. If I see anyone wearing a bandana over their face, I will be the first one to snatch it off.
How’s that for a “cunt”…to use your misogynistic term?
Attmay
@Jake the libertarian: As a fellow libertarian, I agree with you. These breeder filth better be afraid to cross their gay superiors ever again. Fuck political correctness, fuck tolerance, fuck nonviolence, and fuck heterosexuality.
Attmay
@kevin (not that one): Then you’re a traitor.
dgz
@Just Steve: oh snap.
D-Sun
@kevin (not that one):
Is it comfy up there in the house?
Bri
Goddamnit, I have to leave for an appointment, won’t be able to hear it. don’t have a cellphone either. WTF.
dgz
@Attmay: and you’re an embarrassment.
Shae
If we dont win RIOT the hell out of Cali. Apparently they do seem to mind out peaceful protests, its time to show them we can be some mean ass fags! GAY POWER!!!!
dgz
well, that’s it: decision announced.
prop 8 upheld, but marriages stand.
Tanked
ATTMAY is in a butch mood today.
kevin (not that one)
I care more about the safety of my community and the furthering of our cause than I do about some poseurs who want to play pretend they’re “radical”.
By the way, I know someone who was at the White Night Riots and it wasn’t gays who set the police cars on fire, but heterosexual “revolutionaries” who hid behind the screen of the gay community.
Their actions caused the police to attack not the heterosexual community, but to take revenge on the gay community – the majority of whom were either not at Civic Center or who were peaceful.
Almost every San Franciscan historian will tell you that the WN riots actually set back the gay community – not achieve gains for it.
Perhaps you guys would know this if you had a single thinking mind divided between you.
But like I said, if I see violence, I’ll either stop it before it happens or I’ll turn you in to the police and I could give a flying fuck what you think.
Richter
It is my sincere belief that a 9.7 earthquake will remove California from the continental United States, today.
dgz
@Richter: at least now they can’t blame it on God’s vengeance.
Jake the libertarian
@ DGZ
You might me right about this particular situation. I guess my main point was that non violence at all cost is a shitty sorry weak existence. If violence is called for… Or if violence will work, I say give it to them.
@ATTMAY
You are an idiot.
Hector Levarrio
After reviewing what has happened in the Netherlands I am offering my opinion. In my judgment, it is difficult to imagine that a lengthy, highly visible, and ultimately successful campaign to persuade Dutch citizens that marriage is not connected to parenthood and that marriage and cohabitation are equally valid ‘lifestyle choices’ has not been without serious social consequences….
There are undoubtedly other factors that have contributed to the decline of the institution of marriage in our country. Further scientific research is needed to establish the relative importance of all these factors. At the same time, we wish to note that enough evidence of marital decline already exists to raise serious concerns about the wisdom of the efforts to deconstruct marriage in its traditional form. But the deeper point is that the meaning of traditional marriage was transformed every bit as much by the decade-long national movement for gay marriage in Holland as by eventual legal success. That’s why the impact of gay marriage on declining Dutch marriage rates and rising out-of-wedlock birthrates begins well before the actual legal changes were instituted. The recent statement by five Dutch scholars takes exactly that position.when you have ‘rising out of wedlock birthrates’ then guess what happens? more crime, more drugs, more gangs…a dysfunctional community, as we have seen in the black community.
you on the other hand, have no evidence that gay marriage has a positive effect upon society in any manner…its all about the greed of the gays to enforce their views upon others….and at the same time limiting the religious freedom, and freedom of speech, of those who disagree.
stupid
Darn tootin’ you little idiot…the whole point is to keep the world populated with idiots like yourself..that’s happening. Marriage as an institution is stupid…if you need an institution to keep you as a loving parent or spouse, we’re all in trouble. Men will never stop sticking their dicks in women, and thus, there will always be children. Get over it.
Tim in SF
This comment is a test. please disregard. Jap hy Gr ant