Sure, yesterday was a big day for gays in New York City, what with their rallying cries about marriage and whatnot. But don’t forget, anti-gay marriage advocates were also throwing a party! Here’s a couple video interviews from girl-on-girl website Autostraddle, the best part of which isn’t the laughable rhetoric spewed by religious conservatives, but the part where the Autostraddles stop by the pro-marriage rally — and catch a SMOOCH between First Lt. Dan Choi and his boyfriend. Awww!
More video from Sen. Ruben Diaz anti-gay rally from Joe My God:
Tylertime
Dan’s boyfriend looks like Joel Grey.
Evan
The autostraddle crew is right, they’re an ADORABLE couple. SO good to see dialogue, even if I can’t agree with all of it — right on Lt. Choi, right on Autostraddle. You’re FAB!
dgz
okay, say the law is repealed, and Lt. Dan re-enlists. Does he get his former rank restored? Or, does the dishonorable discharge stand?
Chappu
Wow, in video #2, all those guys waving bibles around yet I think I only spotted two men with beards.
Apparently they only promote certain select rules of Leviticus, whilst completely ignoring others.
OhYeah
The Ruben Diaz anti-gay rally in NYC yesterday was, sadly, much bigger than the pro-gay one.
Queerky
Lt Choi is both cunning and a linguist. But not a …..
Anonymous
@Queerky: Thank you for stopping. Personally I think that photo shows him more of an opportunist than an advocate.
getreal
@Chappu: Exactly homophobes ignore everything in Leviticus except the item saying man on man action is unclean. So is pork, shellfish, and cotton linen combinations according to the bible. Most of these bozos never even read the bible they just are scared of gay people and use religion as their excuse.
atdleft
@getreal: Yeah, I wonder when they’ll start protesting Red Lobster.
@OhYeah: Really? Any real numbers?
afrolito
So sick of seeing this Choi guy, and his fug face. That fucker is only interested in furthering his own agenda. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was book deal, and reality show in his future.
Landon Bryce
@afrolito:
Of course you can’t stand to look at Dan Choi. He shows what a real American hero looks like and makes your hero look like the coward he is.
He is beautiful. You, Afrolito, you are the ugly one pushing his own agenda.
Stop it.
Rhydderch
Wow his skin looks terrible. All those pock marks
afrolito
FUG
Landon Bryce
@afrolito:
Yes. That is the level of intelligence and wit your comments show.
Dan
@Afrolito/ @ No. 7:
It is amazing the number of sick, twisted, warped souls who infest this site. The idea that you think that that comment was worthy of posting!
Dan Choi just lost everything he has been working for over the past 7 years or so. His West Point education, his tenure in the Army, the prospect of advancing through the ranks — all of this is gone. He has to start from scratch. And none of the other young Americans who have been drummed out of the military have become “reality show” stars. That you could look at that situation and say that he was out for himself says nothing about him and a lot about your mental state. Get help!
ProfessorVP
@Queerky:
You stole that cunnilinguist joke from me.
That said, Afrolito and #7 get it, but I wouldn’t comment on his physical appearance, especially skin, which is not exactly a turn-on. That is irrelevant. He is all about himself. DADT needs good spokesmen and women, but he is not one of them.
Of all the silliness Choi spews, “We’re in a time of war,” is the most bogus. Bush and all the members of the Carlyle Group had a hard-on for Afghanistan long before 9/11, the whole
bargeload of shit- which Obama will have our kids die for-
is about building a gas pipeline under Afghanistan. And if you didn’t know it, the USA INVENTED the Taliban decades ago,
to kick Russia’s ass, which also wanted to conquer Afghanistan.
And by now even the most brain-dead among us know that Iraq was a scam. No, don’t tell me we’re at war. And also– I don’t care if I get flack about this– don’t tell me that Choi has been 100% celibate on duty, don’t tell me that his femme ways aren’t a distraction to others, and as Judge Judy says, “Don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining.”
I defy anyone to reply without making ME the topic, incorporating the words bitch, fat, insane, self-loathing, or other epithets that digress from the issue.
Dabq
@ProfessorVP: Good stuff, I don’t find him at all sincere that he was wronged and also think that he was getting his freak on more than anything else, probally why he wanted to join.That said, he still should have had the right to do so.
Blue
Since when does the US Military give a shit about human rights? What the hell do you expect?
Landon Bryce
The extent to which commenters who cannot abide any criticism of Obama have jumped on this is remarkable and revealing.
Dan Choi lost his job because he came out in order to advance the rights of gay service people. I do not believe that any of the people attacking him here have ever done half as much to advance gay rights. Please give your credentials before expecting sane people to take seriously your claim Choi is self-serving.
Some of you think it’s unfair to criticize Obama for failing to take on DADT but do think it is fair to attack the honor, the honesty, and the physical appearance of Lt. Choi.
Thank you for showing so all the level of your intelligence and decency. I hope that others will take note of these comments and remember them when assessing the worth of the other things you say.
KS
@ProfessorVP Oh, I’ll take a shot at dismantling your asinine arguments. So your points are that Choi is an opportunist because a) he says we’re in a war, b) that he must have fooled around on duty and c) because his “femme ways” are obviously distracting to others.
Oh, where to begin?
a) As much as I hate the fact that we are, and as much as I don’t believe we should be, we are in a military situation right now. Call it a war, a conflict, a military operation, whatever, but we have soldiers over there, and interpreters like Choi can help save soldiers’ lives.
b) I’d be surprised if the majority of soldiers have been celibate there. It’s hardly a gay problem. It’s a human issue. You realize there are female soldiers, right? You realize soldiers fuck overseas all the time, right? Whether with eachother, foreign nationals, locals or local prostitutes, it happens.
c) What could he have done that would be distracting? Did he break into showtunes and distract fellow soldiers while they were loading up their weapons? No, wait, I’ve got it — I bet instead of translating, he sat at his desk reading Perez all day. Give me a break.
Also, none of those points even remotely show opportunistic behavior. The guy lost a solid job to bring the bullshit that is DADT into sharp relief, just by being honest about himself. How opportunistic of that currently unemployed bastard.
I don’t feel strongly one way or the other about Choi. I’m just glad he’s started a dialog.
scott ny'er
@Tylertime: i can see that.
(let’s see if my comment gets deleted. my comment, which is innocous, gets deleted while other not so nice comments get to stay)
Toby2009
I’m not sure how old Choi is, but I think he must have joined the military after DADT was in place. Why did he do it if he knew what the consequences were going to be?
My Dad was in the Air Force for over 20 years. Based on my Dad’s record and based on my grades I had my pick of military academies from which to choose. At 18 I hadn’t slept with anyone, but I knew when I did it would be a man. I decided at 18 the military life wouldn’t be for me because I knew I was most likely gay and wouldn’t be able to uphold what the military would expect from me.
Why does everyone who gets booted from the military act shocked when it happens? If you sign a contract you should know what it is expected of you.
Landon Bryce
@Toby2009:
Of course, Rosa Parks knew she was violating the law when she refused to move to the back of the bus, too. This is called civil disobedience, and it is is what some brave, heroic people do when confronted with laws that are discriminatory.
AFROLITO is a Racist Bitch!
Thats right! He is up in arms whenever someone points the finger at his people’s less desirable actions, but he has no qualms calling an Asian person FUGLY and sneaky without any proof whatsoever! Look in the mirror without cracking it with your ugliness, before passing judgments. In my experince I have found that black people are far worse in their bigotry than whites.
afrolito
I wonder which one of my stalker trolls took the time to create an alter ego to attack me? Of course there are a few candidates.
I guess i’ve arrived now that I have stalker trolls after my ass…LMFAO!
Kid A
@afrolito: The “agenda” he’s furthering is equal rights for you and me.
afrolito
@Kid A:
Maybe for you. I have no desire to join the armed services, to fight wars of terror and aggression for this corrupt, imperialist government.
Toby2009
Landon, please don’t compare what Rosa Parks went through to Dan Choi. As a black woman in her time period her hardships were much more severe than anything Choi has went through. Do you really think that gays who joined the armed forces are really doing it as an act of civil disobedience? Highly unlikely.
Jakobtime
My idea of civil disobedience is being out every day of my life which I have been since I was 18. I’m now 40. Choi should have been out all along. How old is the man? If the closet was so difficult then why didn’t he leave it a long time ago. Obviously, he was getting something out of the compromise he was making. Whatever it was he considered it more important than being true to himself.
Kyle
@AFROLITO is a Racist Bitch!:
Just because someone calls a person “fug” doesn’t make him a racist. I think Afrolito and others on here are commenting on Dan’s bad complexion and not that he is Asian.
Chitown Kev
“This is called civil disobedience, and it is is what some brave, heroic people do when confronted with laws that are discriminatory.”
In that sense, Choi IS like Rosa Parks. The situations are not totally analogous of course, but the discrimination is the same. And he is an Arab linguist, meaning he is critical personnel for our national security (however you feel about the war).
And to think that career criminals and even white supremacists are preferred in the Armed forces as opposed to a person who is qualified, skilled, and has a desire to serve his country but cannot do so…that’s pretty bad.
getreal
@Toby2009: I don’t think there is anything wrong or inappropriate about drawing parallels between two civil rights movements. There are undeniable things in common between the civil rights movement of the 50’s and 60’s and the equality movement. It is not a contest of who suffered more and I think it is counterproductive for some black people to waste time that should be spent on the fight for equality acting like our (I’m black) fight for equality is soo much different than lgbt people’s fight. Our histories are different of course but they are undeniable similarities in how we as two groups of people were legislated against.
TANK
@afrolito:
You have to remember, according to Afrolamer, “gay rights are stupid”. He’s a myopic, selfish antisemitic bigot.
Landon Bryce
@Toby2009: Choi is exactly comparable to Parks. If you do not see that, I do not respect your understanding of the situations that either Parks or Choi faced. If you have not been gay and closeted in Iraq, you are in no place to pass judgment on him. I think Choi both joined the military and came out because he wanted to serve his country. I have seen no evidence to the contrary.
Jakobtime, since you have been so much more courageous than Choi, please send links to all the times you have made the news for challenging bigotry. Or been fired for being gay. Without those, I’m thinking you may be a little less cool than you think you are. Choi has actually answered all the questions you ask, but, hey, why read what the man actually said before ripping him to shreds?
ProfessorVP
@afrolito:
Afro, there was no need to point out that Choi is beauty challenged, but no, you didn’t say it’s because he’s Asian, and there was nothing racist about it.
“I have no desire to join the armed services, to fight wars of terror and aggression for this corrupt, imperialist government.”
Finally, somebody gets it. That’s the main dish on a big platter. Choi’s hissy about unfairness, when he knew precisely what he was getting into when he enlisted, is effin nothing to anybody who would take the time to find out what Big Oil and other Big Business is doing to places like Afghanistan and Iraq. Both phony wars, you Pollyannas out there, were invented using 9/11, have nothing to do with 9/11, make us no safer, and kill and displace over a million innocent victims, the majority women and children. When I hear Choi simpering and see him being quite fey… no, it doesn’t distract me from knowing who the real victims are. BTW, if you didn’t know it, translators were “needed” to establish a Saddam-Osama connection. Yeah, real urgent.
My standard paragraph: I dare you to reply without the words fat, insane, take your meds, shock treatment, asinine, bitch,
self-loathing, or otherwise switching the topic to me.
Landon Bryce
@ProfessorVP:
“My standard paragraph: I dare you to reply without the words fat, insane, take your meds, shock treatment, asinine, bitch,
self-loathing, or otherwise switching the topic to me.”
That even you recognize how much of a challenge it is to pretend that you are sane when responding to your raving should serve as a reason for caution rather than a point of pride, Bill.
ProfessorVP
@Landon Bryce:
Choi is not Parks, although he might wear a similar frock at times. Here’s why. Parks had no car and had no choice but to ride the bus to get to and from her job. She was forced into a situation of unfairness and bigotry. And if you’ve ever seen her in the newsreels, she is clearly a shy woman who doesn’t relish all the attention. When I see and especially hear Choi, I fully expect him to break into song, maybe as Lisl or one of the other Von Trapp children in The Sound of Music. Yes, I think he was a distraction, and no, I don’t buy that he was celibate. After many, many trips on that bus, Parks was finally tired and annoyed enough not to stand up for the white passenger and move. Choi has enjoyed the company of muscular, young men, in a needless phony war, and finally comes out as gay, and let me tell you, Choi coming out as gay is like Jupiter coming out as a planet, and playing the hero. Listen, if he were a doctor there, piecing together the Iraqi children America blew up, that would be one thing. But translating? To establish a link between Saddam and 9/11? What’s that Judge Judy says– “Don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining.”
My standard paragraph: I dare you to reply without the words fat, insane, take your meds, shock treatment, asinine, bitch,
self-loathing, or otherwise switching the topic to me.
TANK
@ProfessorVP:
Okay, you don’t get it. Rosa Parks intentionally planned to do what she did. There were many other “rosa parks” who staged acts of civil disobedience before she did. She was actively involved in the civil rights movement for years, and the stars aligned, and we are told that she was just tired…no, she was a civil rights activist who intentionally got on that bus to protest.
As to your stance on DADT, you have no credibility. This isn’t about your corporatist agenda. This is about equal rights and equal access. You’re absurd.
TANK
@TANK:
And not just acts of civil disobedience, but THAT specific act of civil disobedience.
TANK
rather, anarcho marxian anti corporatist agenda. Embarrassing outdated idiocy. Do the kids still gather round to listen to you yammer? I doubt it…that’s why you’re here spewing it instead of the light of a little group of wannabe radicals at a bar somewhere.
LOL
“Choi coming out as gay is like Jupiter coming out as a planet”,
ahahahaahahaha
this is the best line of this entire thread.
congrats.
lol
Chitown Kev
@TANK:
That…is correct.
They had a similar case prior to Parks, I think her name was Colvin or something like. She was unmarried and pregnant and the black ministers in Birmingham decided not to go forward with the case.
Plus not all of the Birmingham ministers supported a bus boycott at the time of the colvin case.
Chitown Kev
@ProfessorVP:
Yeah, you’re wrong about Parks, you may want to read David Garrow’s book on the Civil Rights movement. That’s not to detract from Parks heroism nor should Choi’s heroism be detracted from.
Stan
Now I am all for celebrating Choi’s act, but comparing him to Parks is a bit of a stretch.
On the one hand, you have a black woman riding a bus when black were being lynched, beaten and all other types of acts, so when she did this, she ran the same risk of it happening to her and her family.
On the other hand, you have a gay guy getting discharged from the military (unfairly) and now making the rounds on Anderson Cooper and whatever other talk show and kissing his boyfriend at an event in New York. Not exactly death-defying.
but kudos to him.
riese
Hi. My name is Riese, I am the girl from the website that made the video.
I think Dan Choi is really cool. Furthermore, I think that everyone should be nice to each other and try to focus on positive things that will advance our common causes.
Why is everyone yelling at everyone?
Love is beautiful.
That is all.
Chitown Kev
@Stan:
On the other hand, you don’t know who may be watching Choi on these shows and maybe decide for some insane reason that these goddamned faggots are getting too uppity for their own good. That person (or a group) may get together and go out and beat someone to a pulp if they even think that he’s (or she) is gay.
We have a man sitting in a coma in a New York hospital, maybe for a reason like that.
Our community is as vulnerable to violence and even lynchings as the black community was (and still is in some places).
Stan
Chitown, I’m almost convinced you may be a white guy posing as a black gay guy just so you can get a little credibility.
Do you really believe gay people are as prone to lyching today as black people were during the Rosa Parks period?
Seriously?
I HIGHLY doubt you do.
I gave the boy props, but let’s not get RIDICULOUS.
getreal
@Stan: I think it really insulting that if a black person has an opinion different than someone stereotype of how we are all supposed to think people think it is appropriate to question their racial heritage. We are a large and varied race of people with individual thoughts and feelings not a single group conscious. Uncool man.
schlukitz
@Stan:
You know, Stan…you are beginning to sound exactly like a holocaust denier.
These homophobes don’t lynch gays. They beat them to a pulp and murder them or drive them to commit suicide. But what is really interesting, is that it almost always seems to take two or three macho homophobes to beat up on or kill one defenseless faggot.
Something to feel real proud of, I would imagine? Real men. Good cause for a robust round of high-fiving.
Chitown Kev
@Stan:
No.
But as the movement for gay civil rights advances and as our visibility increases, will attacks on gay people increase? Could lynchings occur? Yes.
There is every bit of evidence that hate crimes and violence acts against gay people has increased since the Prop 8 fight, in fact.
Remember we are everywhere, an attack could happen in New York or California or even in rural areas (as was the infamous case of the Ku Klux Klan shooting up an adult bookstore in North Carolina in the 80’s).
Chitown Kev
@getreal: I’m used to it getreal, it doen’t bother me.
Stan
@GetReal
first, THIS IS NOT AN ATTEMPT TO START A RACE/GAY WAR. PLEASE NOTE.
anyway, I was not questioning his race based on an “opinion”.
he said “Our community is as vulnerable to violence and even lynchings as the black community was”. He said it like it was fact.
on that, I called BS.
yes, he likely did it for effect, but still…
and no, I’m not downplaying gay violence.
whew.
this board is a MESS.
Chitown Kev
@Stan:
I am not doing it for effect.
Hate crimes will increase and are increasing against gay people, period.
Just as there was increased violence during the civil rights movement against black people.
I did not compare levels of violence.
And you are questioning my race.
It doesn’t bother me, really, because I know my shit. I know that many of these skinhead/neo-Nazi/Klan groups don’t make too much of a distinction between a nigger, a faggot and a kike. If they can 2 or even 3 in one, so much the better.
getreal
@Stan: Well I am a black person and have read many posts from Chitown Kev and have no doubt he is black. I call BS on your stereotyping. If you don’t believe that the gay community is subject to lynchings feel free to go to Jamaica, Eygpt,or a host of other countries and announce you are gay and see how quickly your opinion changes. It doesn’t even have to be another country look what happened to Mathew Sheppard in Wyoming. Think before you type.
ProfessorVP
@TANK:
If Rosa Parks’ act of defiance was actually planned/staged, I have no problem with it, but can you provide a web link, or a book, or anything that substantiates that? It would be interesting if you are right, but I’ve never heard or read that before. So provide, please.
ProfessorVP
@riese:
How old are you, dear?
GJR
I’m still not convinced. I’m going to have to make out with him and do extensive testing myself before I believe it..
Jaroslaw
I think something everyone is missing here is lynchings etc. matter very much to the PERSON it occurs to!
Does it really matter if 15% of people of Color have acts of violence and “only” 5% of Gay people have acts of violence committed on them?
KS
@ProfessorVP I like how you asked for your argument to get dismantled without personal attacks, and when it was, you ignored it.
The comment section at this site is entirely worthless now. Before it was just mostly worthless. Sad.
Jaroslaw
KS – VP is a blowhard – look at his comments on the other article on this site about Choi – he says he’s only in the military to be around men all day; ignores the fact the man met all the physical, mental, education & background checks. That is highly insulting for no reason and yet you are worried about what HE thinks?
Plus you are dismissing the rest of us when you say this site is worthless. I liked your rebuttal and the fact that he didn’t respond speaks volumes. Lighten up! 🙂
Chitown Kev
@ProfessorVP:
David Garrow’s “Bearing the Cross” pp. 13-14
Chitown Kev
@Chitown Kev:
I mean she really was tired that day and had beenn submitted to abuse by the white Montgomery bus drivers for years, that’s true. As I said, the Montgomery NAACP (in which Rosa Parks was very, very active) had been looking to bring test cases to challenge the bus boycott.
Staged is, perhaps,, stretching it a bit. A lot of it was a right place at the right time with the right person who had been vetted and whose character and credentials were impeccable.
Landon Bryce
@Chitown Kev:
Parks was a mentor to Colvin before her pregnancy made the church leaders organizing the proposed boycott decide that Colvin would not be sympathetic enough. Parks was inspired by Colvin and by the murder of Emmett Till. She was not, by her own account, physically tired the day she decided to protest the law and serve as an ideal test case. It is the very deliberateness of her act that makes her a hero, in my opinion. The same with Lt. Choi.
I cannot believe that anyone is naive enough not to understand that Dan Choi will not be in great physical danger if DADT is lifted and he is allowed to re-deploy to Iraq, a country where dozens of gay men have been murdered since Obama was elected and our occupying forces have done nothing to discourage this. Parks was very well supported and probably in less physical danger than Stan thinks.
I know a lot about Rosa Parks because I admire her greatly and have studied her example. It seems obvious that Dan Choi has, too. I hope that at least one of the people offended by the comparison will be moved to actually learn something about Parks. Read a book.
Chitown Kev
@Landon Bryce:
I am reading “Bearing the Cross” even as we speak (and working at the same time). I know the act was deliberate on the part of Parks and had been planned. King’s participation, however, was a surprise because he was so young.
People would be surprised if they ever bothered to read the history of the Civil Rights movememnt what they will find. That’s why I am taking a refresher course.:) But all people here seem to be interested in are pithy quotes from King and others to use as slogans. Epic fail. It just proves how uneducated about the Black civil rights movement that many gay people (including myself) really are.
That’s part of the reason why my language at #50 is so strong.
ProfessorVP
@KS:
No reply from me about dismantling, because you violated my standard paragraph protocol by using the word asinine.
Chris
Why are all these simpletons attacking Dan Choi and not attacking what they should, which is the DADT policy itself.
ProfessorVP
I will do some more reading on Parks. If it is a myth about her being tired from her seamstress work and that particular night she just happened to get fed up with being pushed around- it is a very widely accepted myth. I have heard Parks speak over the years, and she never said her defiant act was planned. On the other hand, she never said it wasn’t planned.
But back to Choi. Per usual, I don’t really care if I’m in the minority on this one, but one cannot– okay, one SHOULD not– overlook the fact that his services were never necessary in a bogus oil grab that was never necessary, that has wreaked havoc on hundreds of thousands of civilians, and here’s where I’ll really get some flack: just the sight and especially sound of him conveys that it was the adventure of being abroad and in the company of in-shape young guys, hot inner city studs and buff rural hunks… this was Choi’s motivation, not some idiotic
and patriotic mission to kick some Arab ass because of 9/11. The conclusive proof that Choi’s services weren’t necessary is his discharge.
Is it possible for DADT to be dumb, useless, bigoted and wrong AND Choi to be a really bad spokesman for repealing DADT, both occurring at the same time? Yes.
My standard paragraph: I dare you to reply without the words fat, insane, take your meds, shock treatment, asinine, bitch,
self-loathing, or otherwise switching the topic to me.
Seriously
@landon bryce
I cannot believe that anyone is naive enough not to understand that Dan Choi will not be in great physical danger if DADT is lifted and he is allowed to re-deploy to Iraq, a country where dozens of gay men have been murdered since Obama was elected
uh, and exactly how would they know he was gay, Landon?
are u going to argue the Iraqi soldiers are watching Anderson Cooper and reading gay blogs (and speak English) so that when they encounter American troops in combat they will remember which is the GAY one?
really?
lol. some of you guys, although well intended, make some incredible leaps….
Landon Bryce
@ProfessorVP:
This is perhaps the most virulent anti-gay bigotry I have ever read on Queerty:
“just the sight and especially sound of him conveys that it was the adventure of being abroad and in the company of in-shape young guys, hot inner city studs and buff rural hunks… this was Choi’s motivation, not some idiotic
and patriotic mission to kick some Arab ass because of 9/11.”
So– effeminate men can not be patriotic? You feel qualified to judge someone’s motivations by your judgments regarding his masculinity?
Perhaps you hate Choi so much because believe that gays are truly incapable of military service. Or perhaps you hate the military so much that you are incapable of seeing decency in anyone that serves within it.
Please add the word “bigot” to the list of adjectives that adequately describe you with which this incarnation is currently ending its posts.
Landon Bryce
@Seriously:
I think you miss my point. Our soldiers occupy Iraq. Our military values the lives of gays so little that they are doing nothing to prevent the murder of gay men. Many Americans have died in friendly fire incidents in Iraq. Choi is pledging to return there. Although he focuses on the support he has gotten, he knows that all it would take is one crazed bigot for him to die. And, yeah, I think the crazed bigots might know the gay guy who came out on TV.
Besides, ALL soldiers in Iraq are in greater physical danger than Parks was in. This is an undeniable truth that ten minutes of research if not ten seconds of reflection will prove. Again, I know about Parks because I admire her greatly and have studied her. She did put herself in physical danger but the racist past was not a warzone. Please read a book.
Seriously
Maybe you need to read your own post.
You implied that Choi was in greater danger from Iraqi’s because he was gay.
This whole, “well, one crazed bigot watching him, blah blah” could also be true for anyone who may be a potential victim of random violence. And yes, ALL troops are in great physical danger, due to being in Iraq. Choi being gay makes little difference (you do know he’s a linguist right?….how many linguist have been killed in war?…i’d wager not many), and your attempts to create some hypothetical “well if he was walking down a street and the one english speaking iraqi who also happened to have read a gay blog, carrying a gun, during halloween with a full moon blah blah”..is ridiculous.
Choi is in danger because he is a soldier yes, his being a gay linguist, not so much.
Parks was in far greater danger due to being a black women in that era. Hands down. You are a moron.
Landon Bryce
@Seriously:
Oh, I take responsibility for having given the wrong impression. I’m not a clear writer, and I’m sorry. You seem to deliberately ignore that my point that Choi is in danger from American soldiers– I don’t think that was unclear in my second message at all, so I don’t see why you continue to pretend I was talking about Iraqis reading gay blogs.
Again, if you think being a black woman in the 1950s was more dangerous than being a soldier in Iraq, please do yourself the favor of reading a book before commenting on these issues in front of people whose opinions of your intelligence matter to you.
Seriously
and the whole “the racist past was not a warzone” just proves my point…
tell that to the people who got hosed, attacked by police dogs, kidnapped from their homes and lynched, the women raped etc. etc. that it wasn’t a war zone.
but don’t take my word for it, Landon, it’s all on video.
yeah, Choi better be careful, I hear they’re really gunning for the linguist.
Seriously
and Landon, if you actually read my post, I said clearly that he was in danger due to being a soldier, AS ALL SOLDIERS ARE.
You were trying to up the ante by saying “gay iraqi’s are killed (by other iraqi’s NOT AMERICAN TROOPS) and then make the leap to “american troops will then begin killing their own troops who are gay, because they don’t stop iraqi’s from killing gay iraqi’s”.
care to explain how that leap was made?
remember, Landon, logic is your friend.
ProfessorVP
@Landon Bryce:
Because you did not use any of the words in my standard paragraph, I’ll respond…
One thing I dislike about a lot of blogs is that it is so much easier to say, “Well, you just hate so-and-so…” than to dig deeper, than to employ more logic, look at the bigger picture.
It is possible to recognize Choi is a queen without hating him. Even bigots often give queens a pass. Look at Mitch McConnell and Lindsey Graham, for example. They keep getting re-elected by rural so-called Christians. Look at some of our biggest stars and entertainers. But to say you don’t notice Choi is a queen is to say you don’t notice the Gulf of Mexico is large.
Can we be grown-up around here?
Can a queen be patriotic? Of course. Should a queen serve his country if he wants to? Why not! But here’s the little thing that’s being overlooked: not one but both wars Bush-Cheney got us into are the same old imperialist hegemony crap we’ve endured for years… the Same Old Empire, colonizing nations and kicking the shit out of innocent civilians, the majority women and children, and privitizing the nation’s resources. Why am I such a Big Meanie to question why anyone would want to be a part of that? Ditto, to question if anybody, by this point in time, doesn’t know these phony wars make us more hated and LESS safe?
Since Choi is not a moron, he knows not only he but EVERYONE in the scam should no longer participate, but he wants to get back into action. For what other possible motivation could it be but enjoying the sight, sound, smell and closeness of hot men?
Now if this were WW2 and Choi wanted to intercept and translate for America so we wouldn’t all wind up wearing Liederhosen- except those killed in concentration camps, that is- that would be different, and I’d keep my yap shut.
See comment #17, he got it right, but I didn’t read anybody squawking about that comment.
My standard paragraph: I dare you to reply without the words fat, insane, take your meds, shock treatment, asinine, bitch,
self-loathing, or otherwise switching the topic to me.
Landon Bryce
@Seriously:
Sorry-
mistook you for someone sane engaging in actual discussion.
Seriously
@Landon Bryce
“Sorry-
mistook you for someone sane engaging in actual discussion.”
translation-I said something completely baseless and now must resort to condescension because I got called on it.
Love
LOVE LOVE LOVE lots of love
yes! love!
dan choi, good for you! hope you’re able to live your dreams, whatever they may be. in fact, i hope we’re ALL able to live our dreams. even you self-loathers who can’t see the forest for the trees.
long live LOVE and HOPE and MEN KISSING MEN
Gabriel
This discussion, if you can even call it that, is the reason it is taking so long to establish true and equal rights in this country. They have turned us all so much against one another that we waste all our energy on silly arguments such as what can be seen above. It does not matter if Dan is comparable with Rosa, and as far as his beauty: anyone who is true to themself is beautiful. Those of you who cannot respect him as a person, for what he is struggling to bring into being for himself and us all are the ugly ones. Stop fighting over all this silly nonsense, maybe then we might have a chance to be heard when we stand up and say we want equal opportunity, and freedom for self determination in every walk of life.
riese
@Gabriel: RIGHT ON.
Jaroslaw
Gabriel, lovely sentiments, much truth in there, but the fact is changing public opinion is a long process under the best of circumstances. As noted above, the NAACP etc. did not go forward with the pregnant Ms. Colvin and waited to proceed with Rosa Parks because the unwed mother status of Ms. Colvin would distract from the main issue. Especially in the 50’s!
If inner beauty were all that counted, I would have boyfriends by the dozen, but unfortunately in our society, outer beauty counts for an awful lot.
The Devil's Advocate
Some thoughts (which I am sure will be ignored or hated by some of the more close-minded here – and yes, there can be much close-mindedness amongst so-called progressives, liberals and humanists)
A) Gays are NOT a race like Blacks, Whites, Asians, or by whatever measure of skin colour or body phenotype.
B) Gays have not been victims of mass genocide as have been North American First Nations peoples here in the Americas, nor like the Jews of Europe, nor certain African tribes in Rwanda, nor the Armenians in the former Ottoman Empire. At best, we are 2.5% ~ 3.5% of the general population, and have been otherwise indistinguishable from the gen. pop. (based upon outward appearances) for most of written human history (spanning about 6,000 years).
C) Gays have not been systematically enslaved on a large scale as a social group on account of their activities.
D) The attempt to parlay the gay rights against the struggles and history of Black in the USA seems disingenuous: Blacks can do very little to change their skin colour, and for much of their time in North America, could do little to change their socio-economic status that was often impacted by their skin colour. Is it any surprise that Blacks take some degree of offense at the LGBT activist efforts to coattail themselves on the success of the Blacks?
E) Concerning Marriage: Again, comparing this to the court issues that dealt with overturning anti-miscegenation laws may seem fair… but is actually a apples-oranges debate. The term “miscegenation” bears inside of it the root word for “genesis”… or “genus”, to “bring forth life”. Which is one of the things unique to hetero-normal marriage – throughout human history, marriage has resulted in new GENErations of humans.
This is not to say that those interested in having homosexual marriage legally recognized everywhere should not pursue it – I’m just suggesting that by attempting to play the “race card” here might not be the best tact.
F) Gentile Christians are not held subject to the Levitical Laws. Neither are they required to abstain from the consumption of shellfish, mixed cloth, nor cutting their hair funny, nor is the growth of facial hair for males particularly prescribed or proscribed.
These laws were, in the exact context of Leviticus 18 and its neighbouring chapters, laws for the class of priests descended from the Israelite tribe of Levi, and not for Gentiles living in Israel, and not necessarily for even common Israelites, although there were other injunctions concerning what food was kosher and what was not.
Gentile Christians (and actually, Jewish Christians, i.e. messianic Jews) believe that the Old Testament (OT) provides God’s views on what is moral and not — and when viewed through the New Testament (NT) especially through the teachings of Jesus, that it comes down to what the Holy Spirit would lead us to do – whatsoever things are pure, lovely, peaceable, etc.
Eating invertebrate seafood and getting USMC-style buzz cuts has little to do with being a Christian. (In fact, Jesus teaches through the Apostle James that for Gentile believers – who had NO cultural background in Jewish/Levitical Law whatsoever – that there should be no more burden on them other than these:
“— But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. —” (Acts 15:20, KJV)
This is also repeated again in Acts 21:25, and elsewhere in the NT where Paul writes concerning avoiding sexual immorality (only once or twice does he specifically mention homosexuality: he was much more concerned with the bulk of humanity that chooses to sin against their flesh with members of the opposite sex).
These verses would be inclusive of forbidding ANY sexual contact outside of hetero-normal marriage, and pretty much leaves us open to eating most things that we in the USA consider food.
And finally…. the letter we’ve been waiting for:
G. We as a community might do well to “get over ourselves”. There are some among us who cannot cease from reminding everyone else around us about our gayness, or about how wretched our existence is (really! as a demographic, gays are much wealthier than our hetero brethren per capita, are more well educated, and if you accept the “gay mafia” trope, have the creative/entertainment sectors of the Free World on lockdown!)
Yet, the screechers won’t be satisfied with merely getting everyone in the USA to accept our presence as a given thing, but will be panicky and angry unless every last person on earth whole-heartedly gives their support to our cause with gusto.
Granted, we’ve come a long way since the dark days of pre-Stonewall. However, won’t it be enough just to be tolerated, or must we continue to press the envelope ever further, and force our open sexuality upon everyone?
All things considered, I really don’t care to see/stumble upon people making out in public, regardless of the sexuality or composition of the people so making out.
Jaroslaw
THE DEVIL’S IDIOT – I mean advocate:
Gays wore Pink Triangles at Auschwitz during WWII and were singled out for particularly harsh treatment.
I’m not going to answer everything – YOU do your own homework and stop spreading ignorant shit.
schlukitz
Oh Gawd!
Not another religious, bible-spouting, closeted queer trolling our sites and looking for an argument.
The Devil's Advocate
Hi Jaroslaw!
You wrote:
“Gays wore Pink Triangles at Auschwitz during WWII and were singled out for particularly harsh treatment.”
As were about 6 million Jews, 2-3 million Romany (Gypsies), 2-3 million Bible-believing Christians and Catholics who did not swear fealty to Hitler or National Socialism ahead of their faith.
And lest we forget, Jaroslaw… there were sizeable numbers of the Waffen-SS (Schutzstafel) and the brownshirts (SA – Sturmabteilung) membership, including the SA superintendent, Ernst Röhm, who were gay men as well, and put many of their gay brothers in the camps.
And again, as a demographic – I’d venture to guess that unlike the Jews who were exterminated on the order of several millions… gay men were not typically scheduled for liquidation after the manner of the “Juden Endlösung”.
The Devil's Advocate
“Not another religious, bible-spouting, closeted queer trolling our sites and looking for an argument.”
Nope! None of the above, actually.
Just someone who would like for our community to stop blaming all of its ills on everyone else, and to live at peace without having to be a bunch of bitter, contentious queens when some people don’t see us as “Homo Superiorus”.
schlukitz
“gay men were not typically scheduled for liquidation after the manner of the “Juden Endlösung”.”
Nope. they were given the dubious distinction of being used as human guinea pigs in horrendous medical experiments that made being gassed to death seem merciful by comparison.
http://andrejkoymasky.com/mem/holocaust/06/ho06p.html
Jaroslaw
Devil’s Idiot – you “venture to guess?” YOU MADE ASSERTIONS. Now you’re going to guess?
While many on this blog tend to “kill the messenger” of anything non-positive or politically incorrect, you have to be more sensitive to how you present things, but mostly you just have to be reality based.
Again, I’m not going to analyze everything you said -but for one example ‘Gays need to stop reminding people all the time.”
Where are you on this? Did you forget about wedding announcements in the paper, Mother’s Day, Father’s Day, and 10,000 other things that remind everyone that 90% plus of the world is straight?
How many people know Gays and others had designations in Nazi death camps (Gypsies being another notable group?)
I’m done responding to you.
The Devil's Advocate
“Where are you on this?”
Well… without mothers or fathers…. none of us would be here.
Unless of course, you still happen to believe that kids are left in the cabbage patch by the stork, ha ha.
Nor do wedding announcements or other holidays/events that cater to the 97% of humans that tend to prefer heterosexual relations.
Hate to say it, but we are the exception and not the rule. Short of buying an island or carving out a hunk an existing state, as some other article here joked about, we’ll not likely be a majority of the human population (and even if we were so on a broad scale, dystopian sci-fi ideas of cloning perfect gym-bodied baby Chelsea Boys in a lab aside as the silly idea it is).
Really: some queens really need to stop getting their (D&G) pants in a bunch just because the rest of the planet doesn’t cater to our perfect vision for the universe.
“How many people know Gays and others had designations in Nazi death camps (Gypsies being another notable group?) …”
Quite a few I’m sure. Jews get the most and biggest notice, since bar none, they were the largest ethnicity/tribal group of people slated for population reduction.
Gypsies and Slavs were a relatively more distant second and third. Somewhere much further down the line were those gays who didn’t quite tow the line (especially femme/flamboyant gays, as opposed to those more butch supermen who may well have been a subconscious feed for those “Tom of Finand” guys)… and surprise, surprise: evangelical Christians who put their bible and gospel-belief in Jesus ahead of Hitler and national socialism.
Te numbers for both Christians and gays pale by comparison to the ranks martyred Jews… but numbers like 250,000 and 200,000 respectively, are still large collections of individual humans.
TANK
D) The attempt to parlay the gay rights against the struggles and history of Black in the USA seems disingenuous: Blacks can do very little to change their skin colour, and for much of their time in North America, could do little to change their socio-economic status that was often impacted by their skin colour. Is it any surprise that Blacks take some degree of offense at the LGBT activist efforts to coattail themselves on the success of the Blacks?
The implication that you mysteriously didn’t write out explicitly is your belief that you can change your sexual orientation. By all means, please do…please change your sexual orientation, for it is distasteful that you claim to be gay or at least not straight with the pronoun. Pursue that course, please…for a good chunk of the rest of your life, if all of it.
Stan
@Devil’s Advocate
It’s the truth and I thank you for stating it. It alls comes down to economic empowerment and gays are far more economicly secure than people of color. I live in NY and know many, many white gay guys who hide their sexuality in order to advance in the corporate world, only to go hang on Fire Island where they can cut loose. How many black, latino, asians never make it through the door? No, it’s not the same and the remedy should not be the same.
schlukitz
@Jaroslaw:
“I’m done responding to you.”
Wise choice, man. Trying to debate with the likes of Devil’s Advocate and Stan is like pissing into the wind.
strumpetwindsock
@The Devil’s Advocate:
Actually you’re wrong about the gay presence in the SS. I’m sure there were some, but they would have been tightly closeted, especially after the night of the long knives.
Anti-gay laws, and the rooting out of gays from society and the Nazi ranks started when Hitler took power in 33, but the persecution got a lot worse after Roehm was purged. Hitler successfully used Roehm’s homosexuality as an excuse to quiet members of the SA and prevent them from revolting. So the organization as a whole was not the queer haven you are making it out to be.
In fact Roehm was arguing for a more moderate anti-capitalist Reich, and he wanted a socialist revolution and for the SA to be the core of the new army. Those were the reasons (plus the fact that the SA were a pack of street thugs that had outlived their usefulness once the Nazis gained power) that hitler purged them.
So the SA under Roehm didn’t actually have that much time to betray their gay brothers – and it didn’t really jive with his agenda. He was only in power for a little over a year after the Nazis came to power.
carlos
another gay asian into white guys…well that’s surprising. Heavy sarcasm intended.
Lyle
@getreal: You’re an intellectually dishonest moron if you can compare the black civil rights struggle and the gay movement for rich white men. Black people had to live in the constant fear of lynching in the South. There weren’t the rich, urban gay meccas of the Village or Castro Street, just a noose and a tree in the south where society was very much against them. As gay men we live in a society where we rarely have to fear for our lives. Being black is something that can never be hidden, unlike our sexuality – which shouldn’t ahve to be hidden – but nonetheless won’t get you lynched by southerners. Comparing Dan Choi, an ugly opportunist with political dreams, to Rosa Parks, a woman who had her very life to risk in standing up for what was right and something she could never hide, is a pampered gay guy’s cheap plan to get sympathy. Of course, while a gay dude has no problem feigning a shared oppression with black people, let somebody who isn’t white into their society – all hell breaks loose.
Alec
@Lyle: I just love the “who is the most oppressed” game! Who wins this week? Lesbian Palestinians or transgendered Iranians?
And I think you’re dreaming if you believe that there are no Americans out there, Southern or otherwise, that won’t lynch you because of your sexuality. In my dad’s day they called it “fag rolling.”
No group in America has experienced the same kind of pervasive, generational discrimination black Americans have. But then, in Europe, no one experienced the same kind of discrimination faced by the Jews, etc. We can go on and on. Gay Nazi camp prisoners were tossed back into confinement.
And I really hate the “you can pass” argument. Yeah, and a Jew can pass as a Christian. So what? Implicit in that comment is the suggestion that your sexuality is just a privilege you enjoy, and not a right of self-determination. Which is it?
GJR
@Alec:
Beyond that, there is the fact that gay people are often rejected by their very own families. I challenge anybody in the world to say that their family rejected them because they were black.
Also, today in something like 34 states you can be fired for being gay and they can get away with it. They can murder gay people and still offer a “gay panic” defense.
I hate the “who is more oppressed” game. Did 6 million African Americans die in concentration camps? No, they did not. And then you could turn around and say, “Well, more died under Stalin..”
And this “more oppressed game” get’s you nowhere.
I am having problems now because my partner (of 15 years)have decided that I should not be part of the family and should not be in their son’s will. They question that what we have is like a marriage. Except that, um, they were a Jew and a Catholic who had to get married in a church basement because people would not openly accept their union at the church altar. My partner’s brother has a darkly skinned wife, of Indian origin. Up to the 1940’s, they would probably have not been able to marry in certain states. The point? At different times, each one of these couples was not recnognized as having a marriage. All groups subject to discrimination and hatred.
And as I reminded my partner’s father: You and I have something in common, had we been in Austria in 1939, they’d have a nice yellow star for you and a pink triangle for me.
Lyle
@Alec: Wow, even though you argue against what I’m saying, that the black struggle and the gay struggle for civil rights are INCOMPARABLE, you go ahead and acknowledge the crux of my argument.
“No group in America has experienced the same kind of pervasive, generational discrimination black Americans have”
I’m not saying that gay people aren’t persecuted and that they don’t suffer, look at figures such as Matthew Shepard, and thousands of nameless LGBT people who dared to express themselves! Sexuality is OBVIOUSLY a right of self-determination. However, unlike with the Jews in Germany, and blacks in america, if a bad situation arose, there’s no way to hide the reality of what you are. Gays shouldn’t have to hide that reality – BUT IF ITS EVER UNSAFE FOR THEM, DISCRETION ALLOWS THEM TO. That’s why a lot of black people, even a gay black guy like myself, get so upset when I see white men appropriating the heritage of black civil rights leaders. But the gay society in which I live, and the gay society with which I interact everyday couldn’t exclude me anymore if it tried harder. Minorities are worthless to the gay community, unless they’re rhetorical examples of previous injustices. As a gay white guy, you deserve the right to marry, but don’t ever compare your little tiff with Prop 8 to a legitimate struggle against a cruel and unforgiving enemy.
Alec
@Lyle: Ah, Lyle. For a bit there, you were doing OK.
Skin tone, Lyle. There were plenty of Jews who were able to “pass” in Europe, well before the National Socialist nightmare. Look up the “New Christians” in Spain, or converts elsewhere. And the emancipation of European Jewry took well over five hundred years, compared to the relatively swift emancipation of American blacks. You invite these comparisons, you live with them. I can *easily* state that black Americans never had it as bad as European Jews. The comparison is repugnant, but you invited it.
Where in the hell do you live? The fucking Castro?
The gay “community,” to the extent it exists, is multiracial. If whites have organized better, follow their example and one up them. I mean, I don’t know what else to say. White gay men come with baggage, as do black gay men, Arabic gay men, Hispanic gay men, Asian gay men, etc. There’s no clean slate to write on.
Believe me, I wasn’t pissed after Prop 8. I was pissed well before prop 8, when nasty (far more nasty than Prop 8) bans passed in 2004. I’ve made a point at criticizing the overreaction. But this is just dumb.
And on a more pragmatic note, whether you want to admit it or not, the Right will hate you just as much as they hate me for being gay, and Obama’s presidency does mean that the American dialogue on race has entered a new (if largely symbolic) chapter.
Schumenauer
Most I just can’t stand him cause he’s an opportunist. He’s going to make a career out of this for himself – he isn’t in it for the movement, he’s in it for his own personal advancement.
schlukitz
@Lyle:
“white men appropriating the heritage of black civil rights leaders”
How fucking dare you!!! You ingrate. As a gay, white man who lived through WWI and lost family members in it, lived through the Stonewall years, lived through the AIDS epidemic and watched dozens of my friends die and participated in the black civil rights movement by contributed my time, energy and money to help secure the civil rights that black people are entitled to, I want to scream at you to give me back everything you appropriated from me and the thousands of other gay, white men who helped you get the freedoms and rights you presently enjoy. And now you are going to take a piss on us. Well, piss on you, sister. You ungrateful motherfucker.
“As a gay white guy, you deserve the right to marry, but don’t ever compare your little tiff with Prop 8 to a legitimate struggle against a cruel and unforgiving enemy.”
Oh, how fucking generous of you. And thank you for marginalizing the suffering of millions of LGBT people throughout history that continues into the 21st Century. We have your blessing to get married, but our “little tiff with Prop 8” is not a legitimate struggle in your eyes.
You are so blinded with your own bigotry and white hatred that you cannot even see it. When I read posts like yours, I want to go to the bathroom, stick my finger in my throat and vomit.
Unfortunately, your head is not in the bowl, so that action makes a waste of my perfectly good vomit.
Gabriel
Both did the best they could in their respective circumstances. Neither deserves to suffer from being compared to the other. Both are heroes. Thank you.
Gabriel
The gay movement is for black gay men also, you conveniently seem to want to forget that. And the black gays are oppressed more by the black community than the white
Jaroslaw
Human progress will never happen if the oppressed fight with each other over crumbs or cry over who had it worse. Minority groups seldom if ever win anything on their own, the women’s movement, the NAACP, all the major issues had help outside their own immediate constituencies. (you might want to think about this Lyle)
I don’t think it can be doubted that Blacks had it worse then & now because they couldn’t hide who they were, whereas many Gay guys could pass, marry women etc. Not to mention in days gone by a number of laws were specifically directed at Blacks (poll taxes, literacy tests) and if I’m not mistaken some even mentioned Blacks but no other groups.
But some Gays do well, some don’t, same for Blacks – some were wealthy even long ago (Madame C.J. Walker was the first woman millionaire in the USA, not a White woman!) – I even remember a Newsweek article about a group of elite Black people, very wealthy have a cotillion of some sort, circa 1940’s (?)- what I’m trying to get at is prejudice and discrimination may be directed towards groups but ultimately it is an individual thing. I’m not going to get mad for an entire group – I only know with certainty how it affects me and I can only speak for myself.
john
So, when is bestiality and pedophile going to be accepted? I can’t wait to get it on in public. After all that is what Gay Rights is all about – it’s about publicly displaying your sexual preference. I eat pussy, but I don’t feel the need to publicly display that preference.
schlukitz
@john:
If you like eatin pussy so much, then what are you doing on a queer site?
Hypocrite much?
Your Cool
@john:
Well you just did sir. But you how does bestiality and pedophile have anything to do with a man trying to have Washington repeal DADT?
Looks like your with the guilty conscience.
NeneG
OMG that is one hot hot kiss. And I’m a straight chick…Mr Choi, mammi likes!!!