It was the kiss heard ’round Salt Lake: Derek Jones and Matt Aune smooched in front of the Mormon Church on Main Street, and forced LDS to go and spend a few bucks erecting new warning signs. But hey, have we ever looked at it from the Church’s eyes?
No, not from the eyes of the security camera that shows LDS security fighting with Jones and Aune, but from God’s eyes. As in: How would you feel if two Mormons trespassed on your private property and started kissing?
Turned on? Oh, bad example.
It’s just like the NYC cabbie who booted two guys for hugging in his cab: Some things are private property even when they’re used by the public!
How about we take this to the next level?
Our newsletter is like a refreshing cocktail (or mocktail) of LGBTQ+ entertainment and pop culture, served up with a side of eye-candy.
Cam
The thing is, the church lied on two fronts.
….
1. They claimed that the land was private church property, but when they were sold the land by the city, it was a major walking thoroughfare and a court ruled that it had to remaine a public easement with all the laws of public access that entailed.
2. When the backlash started, they then tried to backtrack and claim that the couple was kicked out for being drunk and beligerant, but then the Salt Lake City Police took the very unusual step of not backing the church and came out and said that they were called there because of the kiss and not because anybody was drunk, additionally, the people did not appear to be drunk. That is a typical Mormon reponse if the person they are going after is Mormon…they claim that they were drinking which in Mormon circles is shameful as they are basically taught that if you have a drink you are no better than an alcoholic. I’m sure that it was surprising to them when after they claimed the two had been drinking that every paper in the country didn’t condem the two.
….
And anybody who saw the security video can see that the church security went after them when they were minding their own business. No shock, they went on the attack against every gay person in Ca. without provocation, why should the fact that they would go after a couple of guys for a kiss shock anybody?
Mildly amused...
It’s sad to see anti-Mormon bigotry thinly disguised as pro-gay advocacy. The very people who claim to be tolerant and loving are the ones who show hatred, violence, vandalism, and bigotry towards the Mormon people. The Mormons have every right to believe in traditional marriage and to support their beliefs through peaceful and legal political action. That is a right guaranteed in the Constitution. The hatred, harassment, violence, and bigotry toward the Mormon people does nothing to enhance the cause of gay rights. Neither Martin Luther King, Jr. or Jesus Christ espoused such tactics.
vernonvanderbilt
@ Mildly Amused…
Find a new spiel already. Your copy-and-paste bullshit isn’t changing anyone’s minds around here, you subhuman swine.
Cam
No. 2 · Mildly amused… said…
It’s sad to see anti-Mormon bigotry thinly disguised as pro-gay advocacy. The very people who claim to be tolerant and loving are the ones who show hatred, violence, vandalism, and bigotry towards the Mormon people.
____________________________________
It’s so sad to see that the Mormon church discriminated against African Americans until they were forced by society into grugingly let them into their church. Additionally schools were boycotting playing against BYU so that was another heavy pressure to force the Mormons to try to tone down or hide their bigotry. Now the church has found another group that for the moment they can attempt to legally harrass, discriminate against, and all in all parade their bigotry. Your attempt to do the typical Mormon ploy of pretending to be victims is laughable. Your church is completely in control of the Utah Statehouse as well as the entire Utah Federal delagation, additionally several Senators and Congressmen from other states are Mormon. So Sorry, but when you are in the seat of power you don’t get to pretend to be powerless victims anymore. Your church’s bigoted practices are like anything from the darkness, it will wither and die when exposed to light.
FakeName
Mildly amused said: “It’s sad to see anti-Mormon bigotry thinly disguised as pro-gay advocacy.”
No, it’s sad to see a church that’s one of the wealthiest and most powerful entities in the United States throw their tax-exempt weight into the political arena and then turn into whiny little bitches when they get called out on their hateful tactics. Aw, poor widdle Mormons being called bigots by the big bad gays when all the widdle Mormons ever did was spend millions of dollars to deny full marriage equality.
———-
Cam said: “Your church’s bigoted practices are like anything from the darkness, it will wither and die when exposed to light.”
The whole religion came from out of the darkness, specifically the darkness inside Joseph Smith’s hat when he stuck his face in it to make up, oops I mean “translate” the golden plates.
Matt Aune
why the hell did we decide to put the harry potter series on THAT shelf!?
rf
Can we get some slip and fall injury lawyers over to that sidewalk. Pronto!
HiveRadical
Cam,
RE your first point on the easement. The Church tried to purchase the land and leave the easement to the city initially. That didn’t end up working so the Church had to pay for the easement, they did.
You seem to not be aware that city easements are often sold to private entities, even Churches, all over the US, yet I’ve never seen the hooplah made about those other exchanges that was made with this instance.
As to your claim
“additionally, the people did not appear to be drunk.”
I’d question what you term to be drunk, because here’s a piece of the transcript from the police report AS CITED by 365gay.com
“I could smell alcohol on Matt’s [Aune] breath and he [sic] speech was slightly slurred when he spoke to me,” police officer Eric Moutsos
At what point are you ‘drunk’? When your speech is slightly slurred, or does it have to reach barely intelligible for you to be considered ‘drunk’? If it impedes speech would it also potentially impede reasoning? driving?
You seem so certain as to the veracity of what you’re preventing yet I’m able to refute it with things posted by the very press that’s sympathetic to your cause.
You seem to be unwilling to mention that the actual reason the police department wasn’t going to back charges was because of the loophole they found with the specific signage not being present. If the signage, now present, had remained in place then SLCPD would have readily supported the Church’s position.
HiveRadical
“presenting,” not “preventing” is what I meant to say in my second to last paragraph.
HiveRadical
also “been” in place of “remained” in the last paragraph
Cam
No. 8 · HiveRadical said..
Cam,
RE your first point on the easement. The Church tried to purchase the land and leave the easement to the city initially. That didn’t end up working so the Church had to pay for the easement, they did.
You seem to not be aware that city easements are often sold to private entities, even Churches, all over the US, yet I’ve never seen the hooplah made about those other exchanges that was made with this instance.
____________________________________
This is a typical tactics of the Mormon church, they try to deflect or hide the reality of the discussion by bringing up something else.
What you neglected to mention was that the church TRIED to make it private but were forced by a COURT ORDER to leave the easement public. So technically, your comment of “The easement was sold to them” was true, but you chose to leave out the actual fact that a court forced them to leave it public. Nice try.
Oh, and as for your comment on the alcohol?? Another typical ploy by the Mormon church, they think that mentioning anything about anybody having a drink will send them into a shame spiral….what I notice is that you left out the entire first part of the article that explains how the police report vindicates the gay couple.
….
http://www.ontopmag.com/article.aspx?id=4196&MediaType=1&Category=26
Additionally, you will notice in the article that the Church’s attempt to claim that they called they did not go after them for kissing but for other behavior is called out in the report as a lie. So again, the church lies and all of it’s little minions coming on here will lie lie lie to try to play their victim card.
Jerry Priori
The Mormons can go fuck themselves. Any adult who can believe that Joseph Smith is a prophet is an idiot. Even if there were a god, the LDS would still be false. It’s easily as big a sham as Scientology. I wouldn’t care what they believe, but they seem to care with whom I sleep, so I’m just returning the favor. They struck the first blow by taking away my rights (so much for calling them rights if they can be removed by the fiat of the terminally stupid)and wrongly assuming I’d be amenable to living according to the dictates of their church. They can bear the brunt of my hatred. I make no bones about it, I hate them and their church. They are idiots with imaginary friends and power. I don’t respect that. I hate the Catholic church, too. The villains are many and my hatred is boundless.
Jerry Priori
If they don’t want to be hated so much, maybe they should try not being so hateful.
Just an idea.
HiveRadical
You seem to be horribly lacking when it comes to demonstrating any knowledge of the nuance of the Main Street Plaza issue, a topic on which I am sufficiently conversant (having followed it VERY closely throughout it’s unfolding) to comment on without sounding like the secondhand-source-skimming, search-engine dependent, ideological reactionary your clumsy attention to facts and details presents you as.
As per your claim of trying to hide or deflect could you specify how addressing the issue YOU brought up is ‘hiding’ or ‘deflecting’? Because if discussing the status, and thusly the true nature of the infractions, of a property core to one of your two points in your original post is ‘hiding’ and ‘deflecting’ then making misleading statements about the status of the property must be your own flavor of ‘clear and straightforward’ as your statement
“…it was a major walking thoroughfare and a court ruled that it had to remaine a public easement with all the laws of public access that entailed”
The court didn’t ‘rule’ it had to be a public easement THERE WAS (at that point) a public easement, that was never in question. What was in question was the exact nature of that easement. The court then went on to say that the situation could be remedied by the city selling the public easement to the Church, the city, headed by the uber-liberal, gay rights advocating, George Bush hating, Mormon apostate Mayor “Rocky” Anderson, then agreed to SELL THE EASEMENT. But the way you present it is as though we were still in the moment in between when the Judges stated the nature of the easement (a point which you do get wrong, the presence of the easement at that time was never in question, rather the nature)and when the Judges recommended a viable means of ameliorating the situation via the selling of the easement to the Church.
What the Church tried to do was to have an easement without leaving open the doors for people to come in and openly disparage and defile a private property investment they’d made to enhance downtown salt lake city by giving it an extra park, more space for pedestrians rather than cars to enjoy more green rather than asphalt, the Church tried to do this so that everyone could win. The Church would fund it, even pay the city handsomely and all they wanted was to not have a massive investment in downtown used as a bully pulpit by punks. Everyone acted like this was some grave injustice yet the very same restrictions on public easements have been in place for a very long time when it comes to abortion clinics. There are public easements that enable people to walk by abortion clinics while at the same time restricting the proximity of free speech activities ON PUBLIC EASEMENTS that are close to abortion clinics. This was the Church trying to do right by all, but the Church would have never gone in on it if it had been clear that this wasn’t feasible, or that the Judges would all of the sudden have a problem with something that they already had exemptions for all over the US. Someone holding a sign on a public easement by an abortion clinic IS STILL LEGALLY PROHIBITED, the city and the Church thought there could be a like middle ground for a place that, rather than killing babies, brings couples together so that more humans can be created and brought into loving families. Apparently sanctity and protection from defilement is only reserved for those who kill babies and not those who seek responsible creation and raising of babies.
As for your point on the police report and the Church’s claim–simply because something isn’t in a police report doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. To claim ‘LIES!’ on the part of the Church simply because a police report doesn’t include all the events claimed doesn’t mean there are lies going on.
If there was any real vindication for the gay couple they would have filed suit against the Church. But they both knew that they weren’t in any kind of position to make their claims hold water in any way under the law.
Cam
State whatever you want. The Church made one claim the police report said another, they lied. As for your following the easement issue, this was a huge scandal in Salt Lake, when a non-mormon Mayor sold the land to appease Mormon voters, the case then went to court, the church had to keep the easement public. Your complete defense of the church in spite of the article showing that the police were in fact called because of kissing, contrary to what the church was claiming just shows that you have no ability to be rational on this issue, you will parrot your masters position no matter what. That is fine, I’m sure the other folks in your ward will all get together and make you several jello salads to celebrate your fighting the good fight against evil apostates, minorities, and deviants.
vernonvanderbilt
At the risk of sounding like a fundie bigot retard…fuck the facts. After what they pulled with Prop 8, the mor(m)on church is an enemy, worthy only of contempt and destruction. If there is any incident with a mor(m)on on one side and a GLBT person on the other, I’m siding with my people. I don’t care if they’re blatantly in the wrong. I don’t care if they got caught red-handed defacing mor(m)on property or if they’re accused of murdering a mor(m)on grandmother…if they’re queer, I’m on their side. Any calamity that befalls the lds church is karma giving them a bitchslap. The only way the mor(m)ons can ever make up for the evil they have perpetrated against us is to cease to exist.
Cam
vernonvanderbilt, to add to your comment, they haven’t even really acknowledged that they wouldn’t allow blacks into their church until nearly 1980. They just basically ignore it and try to pretend that they are just a bunch of sweet wholesome folks. The passive agressive destructive cultish attitude, well that they hide from outsiders.
HiveRadical
Jerry,
You said–
“They struck the first blow by taking away my rights (so much for calling them rights if they can be removed by the fiat of the terminally stupid)and wrongly assuming I’d be amenable to living according to the dictates of their church.”
Actually we weren’t the ones who came out and tried to redefine marriage by changing the core component of marriage that has never changed throughout human’s history. Yes marriage changes, yes it evolves, but just as is true with evolution if you alter certain core components you can change something from being viable to not. Viruses for example have structures that mutate all the time while other structures, if they ever mutate, are never passed on because the occurrence of such mutations makes the virus no longer capable of replicating itself. YOU are the ones that made the first attack YOU are the ones trying to usurp and force a transformation on society and culture. You’re welcome to your own view on what is and isn’t good for society and culture, but don’t be disingenuous and say that WE started this. Nothing is further from the truth. Please be truthful. Own it when you are the one trying to overthrow a societal standard that hasn’t changed in all of history. Again don’t go off on this stupid ‘marriage has changed all the time!’ shtick, this is not a mere change, a mere modification, this is a redefining OWN IT AS A REDEFINING.
You have the same rights I do. The fact that the sex of an individual is not equatable to skin color doesn’t mean that you have less rights or that we’ve taken away something you ever rightfully had. You can marry someone of the opposite gender and I can marry someone of the opposite gender. THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN A CORE AND UNCHANGING COMPONENT OF MARRIAGE THROUGHOUT HUMAN HISTORY.
YOUR SIDE FIRED THE FIRST SALVO. YOU STARTED THIS. TO CLAIM OTHERWISE IS TO LIE AND ATTEMPT TO DECEIVE This is a war to overthrow culture and your side is the side seeking, not to merely modify or evolve or to tweak or merely improve, but to completely redefine and co-opt marriage at it’s core.
rodney
vernonvanderbilt, Thank you for affirming every fear the Evangelicals, N.O.M, Catholics, Mormons, and decent citizens across America have had in the back of their minds about accepting SSM. Are you so detached from reality that you think you are going to gain votes for your cause with comments like that? Moderates and Independents pay attention; behold the face of the “tolerant homosexual”.
HiveRadical
Cam, your determination to see your perceived discrepancy as inherently being a lie so clearly labels you as precisely the very thing you then sought to label me as, a close-minded bigot too caught up in his own wants and ideological ends to ever recognize truth.
and vernon, I just have to copy what you said because your embrace of hate demonstrates that you’ve never been against hate–
“At the risk of sounding like a fundie bigot retard…fuck the facts. After what they pulled with Prop 8, the mor(m)on church is an enemy, worthy only of contempt and destruction. If there is any incident with a mor(m)on on one side and a GLBT person on the other, I’m siding with my people. I don’t care if they’re blatantly in the wrong. I don’t care if they got caught red-handed defacing mor(m)on property or if they’re accused of murdering a mor(m)on grandmother…if they’re queer, I’m on their side. Any calamity that befalls the lds church is karma giving them a bitchslap. The only way the mor(m)ons can ever make up for the evil they have perpetrated against us is to cease to exist.”
With enemies like you we gain so many more friends.
Something else
Wow. I had been told that gays were very tolerant and accepting people. But reading these messages; all I see is hate and venom. I see no sign of tolerance or acceptance. Instead, I see foul language, trash talk, slanderous insults, and extreme ignorance. I hope these comments and attitudes are not representative of the gay community at large.
Gay Human Rights
HAHA!
YES! They have taken the bait!
The (leadership of the) Mormon Church is now full-in as the opponents of gay rights, “mixed” marriages, and gay-lesbian-bisexual-transgender-intersex-allsexual-queer-etc people.
Does everyone realize how great that is?
If there is any group Americans, evangelicals included, hate more than the gays, it’s the Mormons. AND THEY ARE ALLOWING THEMSELVES TO BECOME THE NEW FACE OF GAYHATE! That is the best thing our little social justice movement could have happen to us.
Hiveradical, and other LDS representatives, a question: In 1976, the leader of the Mormon Church, facing a very angry IRS, had a convenient “vision from god,” telling him to drop the theology that as black people atoned for their sins they would become white. What year do you predict the LDS leadership will receive their visions about rejecting homophobia as they did racism. My money….2018. Yours?
Cam
No. 21 · Something else said…
Wow. I had been told that gays were very tolerant and accepting people. But reading these messages; all I see is hate and venom.
________________________________-
Another trick out of the Mormon playbook. They tell them to start off with a compliment, to elevate the people, then to act dissappointed that they have been “Knocked off” the pedestool, or have not lived up to the position. i.e. this persons comment of “I had been told that gays were very tolorant and accepting”. Really? Now just where were you “Told” that? Again, it’s a very typical Mormon argument style. The missionaries are taught it very early on in the training as a way to open a discussion with people to prevent doors from being closed in their faces. Nice try, but again, your bigoted church, that has gone out of it’s way to attack minorities, gays, women, and anybody else that you feel you can cruch beneath you is not in the right. Your church is a wealthy powerful organization that is now engaged in the modern equivilant of the Spanish inquisition. Your church STILL hasn’t apologized for not allowing blacks to be members until nearly 1980. Do you think people don’t remember that? The ONLY reason you let them in was because other schools were boycotting playing BYU and your church was getting horrific press. Now that you can’t publically attack blacks you have moved onto the next group you think you can attack. Nice try, but if your way of life was so wonderful you wouldn’t have to try to force it on people now would you? You are hate filled, bigoted evil folks. The best thing you can do is to keep putting your church’s true face out there so the rest of the world can see it for what it really is. The 19th century version of Scientology.
Gay Human Rights
Now that you mention it…should we start a movement to ban Mormon marriage?
THAT SAID…my gay brothers and sisters…let’s remember that we are better than the leadership of the Mormon Church, and always draw a distinction between “mormons” and their 12 out-of-touch old white straightmale “prophets”. The interesting thing about Prop 8 was how many gay-lesbian Mormons it forced out of the closet, kind of throwing the church into crisis.
ALSO, everyone should read “Same Sex Dynamics Among 19th Century American: A Mormon Example,” by the famed historian D. Michael Quinn. He uncovered lots of gay aunties in the history of the LDS Church…so they excommunicated him!
Wooget Eater
Mormons used their incredible faculties of fund raising and mobilization to ensure that Prop 8 passed. There’s a common euphemism that if you want something bad enough, you will make it happen. It looks like the Mormons wanted it more. Those who opposed 8 had just as much an opportunity to raise money and mobilize their troops, but in the end, they couldn’t do it. As the result of that folly, they demonstrate unchecked belligerence toward ONE group of people that participated in a purely democratic process because the results of that process didn’t favor them… how incredibly obtuse.
As form this situation, why walk through the Mormon Plaza? If Mormons dealt the GLBT community such a wrong, stay away from them and their temple. As two men, why the need to hold hands and smooch on the Mormon’s private property? I think Matt and Derek knew exactly what they were doing that night and this was nothing more than a provocative effort to draw more attention to the Mormon vs. Gay drama being perpetuated all because Mormons wanted it more and did something to make it happen.
They made it happen in Maine yesterday too. My three separate donations of $99 to N.O.M. were well placed. At least by keeping my donations under $100 I don’t have to worry about the “tolerance crowd” black-listing my name, distributing flyers in my neighborhood, vandalizing my property or sending me white powder in the mail. Folks want to make this into a Mormon vs. Gay thing, when it’s really about those who make it happen and those who bitch and piss and whine when they can’t.
vernonvanderbilt
You troglodytes with the magic underwear are god-fucking-damned right when you say I have embraced hatred. After the wickedness you primitive scum have perpetrated against me and my people, hating you is downright cordial.
@Rodney
You’re welcome. See, I don’t have a problem with you ignorant swine being afraid. There are two good ways to get what you want, and that’s to make people love you or make them fear you. It’s plain to see that you made-up religion following fucktards will never love us, so fear is the only alternative. Next time you send your tender lads out into the mission field, let it always be in the back of your mind that there’s a chance one of them will be knocking on the wrong door sooner or later. Yes, you be afraid.
@HiveRadical
Thank you for repeating my statement. Repetition gives power to words, and those vibrations echo throughout the entire Universe. Say something often enough and it becomes truth. Isn’t that how your so-called religion came about? The day of your church’s downfall will be the most glorious day in human history. I’ll be roasting marshmallows by the flames.
@Something Else
Abso-fucking-lutely. There will be no tolerance or acceptance of bigots who would impose their archaic and outmoded beliefs on an innocent and oppressed people. The more you wretches victimize us, the more hatred you inspire. Keep doing it. Keep attacking us, keep oppressing us, keep killing us. Fan the flames of hatred, and know that those very flames will be the ones which will consume you all. Not every queer is content to play nice and be your doormats. Keep pissing us off and see what happens. The price you’ll be called upon to pay may not be worth it after all.
rodney
vernonvanderbilt, all I can say is thank you for being honest. Mormons and all others who believe in Christ’s Gospel do not hate you, but rather disapprove of homosexual acts. In the Christian Gospel we are taught this principle:
“Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.”
For the rest of the God-fearing readers out there taking the heat remember these words:
“Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.”
Seth R.
Post #1 Cam has his facts wrong.
He is correct that the city of Salt Lake retained a public access easement over the plaza when it INITIALLY sold the property to the LDS Church.
There was a publicized legal fight over the issue where the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled against the LDS Church and pointed out that the city retaining an easement meant that the LDS Church could not treat it as private property and limit free expression on the plaza.
HOWEVER….
After that legal fight, the LDS Church traded property to the city of Salt Lake for a new community center in exchange for the city giving up its public access easement.
The City of Salt Lake no longer has a public access easement over the Main Street Plaza and it is now completely private property belonging to the LDS Church. Just as private as nearby Temple Square.
So, they were perfectly within their rights to boot the couple.
Whether it was a good idea to boot them is a completely different matter.
vernonvanderbilt
@ Rodney
I’m calling bullshit. You people do hate us. If you didn’t, you would not be sticking your nose into business that is not your concern and which has zero impact on your own lives. The simple fact of the matter is that, yes, you have the right to disapprove of our lives and loves. This is a free nation, and people are entitled to believe what they believe, no matter how deviant and un-American it is. But, as the old saying goes, your freedom ends where mine begins. You do not have the right to impose your bigotry on the rest of us, no matter what state laws may say about voter referendums and the like. In the secular state, your precious gospel is worth little more than toilet paper. Eventually, we’re going to get enough legislators and judges to understand this, and then you won’t have anything left to prop up your hatred. You’re fighting a losing battle. You know this. All you can do is stall progress.
And you can trot out any bible verses you like. They don’t change the truth of the situation. The ones you chose are actually rather interesting, seeing how you “people” are the ones who threw the first punch that started this war. I know you can’t allow yourself to admit it, but you cretins are not the victims this time. You are the victimizers, the bullies, and you are no better than the 19th century politicians who put prices on your heads.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: fighting against bigotry is not bigotry. We are the good guys in this story, not you. And for your wickedness, your church cannot be permitted to survive. To leave even a shred of its base evil behind would be running the risk of the entire beast regenerating. This is a war that will not end until the lds church does.
Read this again:
“Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.”
Tell me, again…who’s passing laws against who? If you want to see true evil, start by looking in the mirror. All the hatred directed toward you creatures? You brought it on yourselves.
I hope you choke on it.
Seth R.
Incidentally, I think I should point out to some of the angrier pro-gay posters here…
Having NPR and the Daily Show on your side doesn’t really put you in a position to wage a “war of annihilation” on much of anybody.
You seem to be assuming that history is on your side on this one and that “most” of America will simply back you up when you cry jihad on the Mormons.
I think that point is very much in dispute right now, and I wouldn’t be acting so confident if I were you.
vernonvanderbilt
@Seth R.
History is on our side. This war has already reached its turning point. Further setbacks are to be expected, but the tide is already on its way in. As more and more boomer bigots croak, there are more and more fair-minded, modern, intelligent youngsters climbing the ranks and joining the voting pool. Within one generation, we are going to see a massive turnaround as far as public opinion goes, and the bigots will be powerless to stop it. The time is drawing nigh when mor(m)ons, and all other religiously-motivated bigots, will be seen for the malicious buffoons they are. In the distance, a bell is tolling. Soon, its song will ring from shore to shore. It is the sweet chime of equality, and we all know you can’t un-ring a bell.
Victory will come to us very soon. Repent of your evil ways before it’s too late.
Attmay
I hope we’ll at least spare Marie Osmond and her lesbian daughter that she loves ever-so-much. 🙂
rodney
vernonvanderbilt, I disagree on many of your points but let me address a few.
1-“business that is not your concern and which has zero impact on your own lives.” SSM has a lot of influence on my life and the society I live in. It has influence on my childrens lives and the future. I have nothing directly against homosexuals personally, but I don’t want the definition of marriage devalued in a way to neutralize the importance of gender roles; i.e. a mother and a father. I believe it is important to have a mother and a father in a marriage and so do the vase, vast, majority of Americans.
2-“You do not have the right to impose your bigotry on the rest of us, no matter what state laws may say about voter referendums and the like.” ‘Bigotry’ is what you call it. I call it ‘Values’. If you don’t think I have the “right” maybe you should take a class in Constitutional Law, or better yet go try and get a SSM in Maine. I have every right in the world to vote according to my values.
3-“you “people” are the ones who threw the first punch that started this war.” Perhaps you missed the part where the voters “overturned” the law. When you overturn something, that means it was turned by someone first. Legalizing SSM without voter approval was the ‘first punch’.
4-“I hope you choke on it.” What’s that supposed to mean?
5-“History is on our side. This war has already reached its turning point. Further setbacks are to be expected, but the tide is already on its way in. As more and more boomer bigots croak, there are more and more fair-minded, modern, intelligent youngsters climbing the ranks and joining the voting pool.”
I love the strategy of the homosexuals to go after the young voters. What they don’t realize is that young voters grow up, get married, have families, and all of a sudden realize the importance of traditional marriage. There was probably a time in my life when I would have voted for SSM had it been on the ballot. Now that I’ve matured and have a family of my own I’ll fight for traditional marriage till I die. To claim the tide is turning, or you are somehow winning this war, is to ignore the 31 out of 31 voter initiatives that have banned SSM. Are you that blind to tell me that you are winning the war when less than 24 hours ago Maine just voted against your cause? You’re like the guy on Monty Python and the Holy Grail that gets all of his limbs cut off and is still picking a fight with the guy that dismembered him. Reality is here if you want it.
SSM isn’t about equality. It’s about redefining marriage. Homosexuals and heterosexuals are all able to marry the opposite sex. It’s not an accident that males and females have different reproductive parts. If you want to use those reproductive parts the way they were intended you can have a marriage all day long in all 50 States. When you want tell me that a Phillips head will work on a Flathead screw I have the right to say NO dice.
unclemike
@rodney
“SSM has a lot of influence on my life and the society I live in.” Exactly how?
“SSM isn’t about equality.” Yes, it is, no matter how many times you say it isn’t. SSM is about getting the 1200+ federal rights of partnership/survivorship that heterosexual couples automatically enjoy with marriage. When you say it isn’t, you’re either being willfully ignorant or just plain ignorant.
ChicagoLIberal
Oh how I loathe the haters – the so called Christians – that make up the LDS cult. Now their favorite nut leader Dallin Oaks is blaming “the gays” for threatening the Mormons religious freedoms:
http://www.heraldextra.com/article_f8f71f96-b843-11de-ab2d-001cc4c002e0.html
So your leaders are coming after us and we are supposed to just take it?
I am a former Mormon and I know your dirty little “sacred not secret” truths – so the more you go after us it will become our calling to defend ourselves against bigots.
And while you claim a majority rule – we outnumber you in any state anywhere.
Lets ban same sex door to door missionaries preaching hate.
Rodney
Chicago, ex-Mormons are a dime a dozen. You always bring that up as if it makes you special. Once again SSM gets a crippling blow by another Blue State. Why get mad at the Mormons when your own political party rejected you? Mormons are basking in the notoriety though. The more you attack the more you make them in Rockstars amongst Conservatives. Your making Romney’s job of courting Evangelicals a lot easier for 2012 when your pro-traditional marriage president Obama gets dethroned.
Bot
Marriage reflects the natural moral and social law evidenced the world over. As the late British social anthropologist Joseph Daniel Unwin noted in his study of world civilizations, any society that devalued the nuclear family soon lost what he called “expansive energy,” which might best be summarized as society’s will to make things better for the next generation. In fact, no society that has loosened sexual morality outside of man-woman marriage has survived.
Analyzing studies of cultures spanning several thousands of years on several continents, Harvard sociologist Pitirim Sorokin found that virtually all political revolutions that brought about societal collapse were preceded by a sexual revolution in which marriage and family were devalued by the culture’s acceptance of homosexuality.
When marriage loses its unique status, women and children most frequently are the direct victims. Giving same-sex relationships or out-of-wedlock heterosexual couples the same special status and benefits as the marital bond would not be the expansion of a right but the destruction of a principle. . If the one-man/one-woman definition of marriage is broken, there is no logical stopping point for continuing the assault on marriage.
RomanHans
Wow. HiveRadical sure can write. Needs work on the logic, though. Why so much concentration on what the Mormon Church “tried” to do? Why does that matter? I tried to fly when I was eight but nobody needed to phone air traffic controllers.
Here in New York there are lots of public spaces in private buildings. The owners of those buildings have absolutely no say over what the public can do in those spaces, as long as they don’t break the law.
Which makes the Mormon Church wrong.
There! That was easy, wasn’t it? It’s called “logic.”
Cam
No. 27 · rodney said…
vernonvanderbilt, all I can say is thank you for being honest. Mormons and all others who believe in Christ’s Gospel do not hate you, but rather disapprove of homosexual acts.
________________________________-
Then what was the church’s reason for not allowing Blacks into the church until around 1980? Did you not hate them for being black but you just disapproved of them performing “Black Acts?” You folks will try to find any excuse for your bigotry, just as you did when you wouldn’t allow blacks into your church…it was societal pressure such as schools boycotting playing against BYU that forced the church to hide it’s bigotry against blacks and turn your need to discriminate against another group…gays.
RomanHans
Whoops! If #28 is right, then the Mormon Church had the right to boot these guys.
See, here’s why I’ve always avoided arguing the small picture regarding Mormons: the big picture is, the majority of people in Salt Lake City are assholes. What other government would sell a major thoroughfare to a discriminatory religious group? What politician would say, “Well, we need the money, and the gays can always walk somewhere else?” Obviously the politicians are assholes, and sorry, but if your politicians are assholes, it means most of your population are assholes too, or you’d have booted the guys.
Actually, let’s throw in “stupid” here too. Because if some city government had sold a public thoroughfare to a group like the Satanists, and the Satanists stood there and harangued everybody who looked religious, something would be done. Anybody who allows such ridiculous discrimination isn’t playing with a full deck.
Landon Bryce
If you choose to be part of the LDS Church, you are announcing not only your opposition to equality for gay people but your opposition to rational thought. The religious and political opinions of Mormons are not worthy of respect– they are bigoted, ridiculous claptrap.Mormons believe in magic underwear. It’s exactly the sort of thing you would expect from a cult invented by a semi-literate conman.
Racism is central to their belief system, although it has been largely disavowed in recent years. Still, when the president was born, the LDS was still teaching that his skin was dark because he sinned before he was born.
Brigham Young’s followers ordered people to be massacred at Mountain Meadows to try to provoke a race war.
Stephen Colbert is working more effectively for gay rights than the HRC.
ChicagoLIberal
@ Rodney
Ex Mormons are a dime a dozen because when they are old enough to study and learn about the “cult” and the bigotry they were persuaded to join without knowing the whole story.
Also – you are a imbecile for assuming that I am a Democrat – way off.
So you tell Dallin Oaks (an old professor) to take a hike.
You never respond to any point – you just repeat the same talking points – you are rockstars with the Christian Right – all 20% of all hate and crazy. You should be so proud.
Answer the question – how are the gays threatening Mormons religious freedoms?
Now go page through the Morning Goods while pretending to look at Nephites and Lamanites in mock battles.
rodney
Cam- Google search “Elijah Abel” and get back to me.
Then explain to me why Christ told his 12 Apostles to preach the Gospel only to the Jews, then later on in the book of Acts, Paul gets a revelation to take the Gospel to the gentiles. Case-in-point is that you can accuse Christ of being ‘racist’, but for someone that has an understanding of the Gospel that is more than surface deep it makes sense. The LDS Church has never barred Blacks from attending their services. It was a ban on Blacks in the Priesthood only (although there were several Blacks ordained prior to 1978). The Jews only allow decedents of Aaron into the Priesthood, where is the uproar toward the Jews? Cam, you can’t keep stealing pages out of Mike Huckabee’s playbook without using your same tactics on all religions. Why single out the Mormons? Bottom line is; do you believe in God or not? If you don’t, how can I discuss religious doctrines with you. If you do believe in God, do your beliefs stand up to the same scrutiny? “Cam Huckabee”; that should be your new nickname on here.
Chicago “Liberal”. The Liberal who isn’t a Democrat? Very interesting.
Chicago, did you join the LDS Church or were you born into it? There’s a big difference there. I doubt you ever believed it. I can make some assumptions about you but I won’t.
I just find it very ensuring that as a Mormon, how much notoriety and credit the Homosexuals are giving the LDS Church for preserving traditional marriage. To 53% of Maine and 52% of California the Mormons enjoy a nice welcome mat. The byproduct of Prop 8 is that Mormons are now viewed as the poster-boy of saving the traditional family. Mormons couldn’t buy this kind of status. The more homosexuals spew venom at Mormons the more it advances our cause and decimates yours. Just keep doing what your doing because it’s working great for us in Salt Lake City.
rodney
Landon,
-If you choose to be part of the LDS Church, you are announcing -not only your opposition to equality for gay people but your -opposition to rational thought.
That is entirely untrue. The LDS Church welcomes homosexuals to worship all day long (ever heard of the group Affirmation?). The LDS Church’s stance is that homosexuals are welcome, homosexual sex is not. The same policy is in place for single Heterosexuals; you are welcome, but sex outside of marriage is not.
-The religious and political opinions of Mormons are not worthy -of respect– they are bigoted, ridiculous claptrap.Mormons -believe in magic underwear. It’s exactly the sort of thing you -would expect from a cult invented by a semi-literate conman.
“not worthy of respect” is fine, but it still doesn’t mean our votes aren’t counted. It still doesn’t mean that Harry Reid (another Mormon who is anti-gay marriage) isn’t running Congress. It still doesn’t mean Mormons have every legal constitutional right to vocalize an opinion on a social issue. If our opinions weren’t “worthy”, then how did Prop 8 pass? You’re in denial. The anti-Mormon jabs are a nice touch too. You and Cam better return Mike Huckabees playbook before he gets ready for the 2012 election. Are you guys working on his campaign or something? Seriously, how can you make fun of the Mormon’s religious clothing without throwing a few jabs at the Catholics, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims religious clothing? If you’re going to make fun of religious clothing as a way to discredit the adherents let’s include everyone.
-Racism is central to their belief system, although it has been -largely disavowed in recent years. Still, when the president -was born, the LDS was still teaching that his skin was dark -because he sinned before he was born.
This is blatantly false even though Mike Huckabees book says otherwise. You’re a racist Landon because you’re an American and your ancestors lived here when racism was the norm 50 years ago. What a silly argument.
-Brigham Young’s followers ordered people to be massacred at -Mountain Meadows to try to provoke a race war.
WTFlip are you talking about? Ol’ Huckabee must have just added that chapter. Everyone killed was white, the Mormons were white. Race war? That’s a good one. The only problem is that Brigham Young never ordered the MMM. Logistically it would have been impossible. Independedent scholars have verified this over and over, but no Huckabite is going to believe otherwise, not even Landon.
-Stephen Colbert is working more effectively for gay rights than -the HRC
Hip, Hip, Hooray. You’ve won a comedian to your cause. Too bad the better run, better funded campaign in Maine couldn’t convince 53% of the voters to get in line behind old Stephen.
Americans don’t want you to redefine marriage. Get it through your heads. How many times do you have to suffer a backbreaking defeat to get this?
Landon Bryce
Rodney,
If you really think gay people are reading Mike Huckabee’s books, you’ve got some thinking to do. All religions are stupid, but not all religions are equally stupid. You believe that a man who had been arrested previously for fraud found magical gold plates in New York, even though he never let anyone else see them. All religious clothing is foolish, but magical underwear is cowardly, too. If you actually read what I wrote, something Mormons rarely do, you would find it impossible to deny that “Brigham Young’s FOLLOWERS ordered the massacre at Mountain Meadows.” Whether or not Brigham himself gave the order, it was given and carried out by people he knew and loved. The Mormon murderers dressed as Native Americans in hopes of causing war between two groups of their enemies.
rodney
If you really think gay people are reading Mike Huckabee’s books, you’ve got some thinking to do.
-How else do you explain the tired old anti-Mormon rhetoric? If you don’t believe in religion just say so. What the Mormons believe is no more strange than what the Buddhist believe. Just be upfront when you attack Mormons and let everyone know that you are attacking all religions.
All religions are stupid, but not all religions are equally stupid.
Who get’s the privilege of deciding which religion is less or more stupid? Is there some litmus test you apply to a religion that I’m not aware of? I think all of your comments are stupid, but does that prove anything?
You believe that a man who had been arrested previously for fraud
Was he ever convicted? NO. If I accused you of molesting my kids and had you arrested then later you were found innocent…does that still make you a pedophile? You need to get a more current edition of the Huckabee playbook.
found magical gold plates in New York, even though he never let anyone else see them.
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/thrwtnss
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/eghtwtns
I guess other than these 11 people and others…
http://www.moroni10.com/witnesses/golden_plates.html
…nobody saw them right? Huckabee’s book is really outdated.
All religious clothing is foolish, but magical underwear is cowardly, too.
yes, it’s all foolish to the unbeliever. Gay marriage is foolish. Anything can be called foolish. It’s entirely your opinion and doesn’t prove or disprove anything. All it shows is your inability to tolerate others because of their culture and/or customs. My favorite part is that Mormon undergarments are “cowardly”. This comment might take some time for me to comprehend. Underwear = Cowardly? WTFlip is that supposed to even mean?
If you actually read what I wrote, something Mormons rarely do, you would find it impossible to deny that “Brigham Young’s FOLLOWERS ordered the massacre at Mountain Meadows.” Whether or not Brigham himself gave the order, it was given and carried out by people he knew and loved. The Mormon murderers dressed as Native Americans in hopes of causing war between two groups of their enemies.
First of all, the MMM was NOT ordered by Brigham Young. To fully understand the events surrounding the MMM you have to comprehend the history of the LDS people and the violence towards them that preceded the event. The LDS Church has done every possible thing they can do to make restitution for the wrongful actions of some of it’s members. The LDS member who orchestrated the attack was executed by other Mormons shortly after. You cannot blame the leadership or other members of an organization for errors or a few. Just because the Homosexual Duke Professor Frank Lombard molested his adopted son doesn’t mean that all homosexuals can be condemned for his actions…or can they?
rodney
If you actually read what I wrote, something Mormons rarely do
Those darn Mormons, not reading your comments.
hahahah
vernonvanderbilt
@Rodney
I’m so sorry I took so long getting back to you. Okay, I’m not, but I can lie just as well as any mor(m)on.
You said: “SSM has a lot of influence on my life and the society I live in. It has influence on my childrens lives and the future.”
If this is true, then you won’t have a problem explaining how it affects your life, right? How does it influence your children’s lives, for that matter?
“I have nothing directly against homosexuals personally, but I don’t want the definition of marriage devalued in a way to neutralize the importance of gender roles; i.e. a mother and a father. I believe it is important to have a mother and a father in a marriage and so do the vase (sic), vast, majority of Americans.”
If you had nothing against GLBT people personally, then you wouldn’t endorse and participate in personal attacks against us and our families. You, like all the other bigots, mor(m)ons and otherwise, are simply liars. Never mind that innumerable studies (the scientific kind, if that matters to a superstitious prick like yourself) have shown that while two parents are better than one, the gender of those parents makes no difference whatsoever as far as raising a child is concerned. Get a real argument.
“‘Bigotry’ is what you call it. I call it ‘Values’.”
Well, if your “values” state that it is acceptable to discriminate against minorities, tear apart their families, inflict emotional pain and financial hardship on them, and devalue their worth as human beings…well, I’d say your values hold no value whatsoever.
“If you don’t think I have the “right” maybe you should take a class in Constitutional Law, or better yet go try and get a SSM in Maine. I have every right in the world to vote according to my values.”
Of course you do. That’s because the laws which permit actions like what transpired in Maine and California are immoral and unjust themselves. Just because you can be an evil shithead doesn’t mean you should.
“Perhaps you missed the part where the voters “overturned” the law. When you overturn something, that means it was turned by someone first. Legalizing SSM without voter approval was the ‘first punch.'”
So, by your reasoning, the Civil Rights Act should never have been signed either? Because the majority was opposed to that as well. You’re coming here and acting like you’re in the right simply because you have numbers on your side? You’re an idiot. Get a real argument.
“What’s that supposed to mean?”
It means exactly what you think it means: you should die. Soon.
“I love the strategy of the homosexuals to go after the young voters. What they don’t realize is that young voters grow up, get married, have families, and all of a sudden realize the importance of traditional marriage.”
Yeah, except that they don’t. People who harbor no bigotry in their youth are not incredibly likely to grow up and just decide one day that they hate GLBT people for no good reason. Bigots are made, not born, and your “church” is responsible for making plenty of them. That’s why it must be annihilated.
“There was probably a time in my life when I would have voted for SSM had it been on the ballot.”
And Elvis is alive, and Keanu Reeves is a good actor, and Donald Trump’s hair is real. Give me another one.
“Now that I’ve matured and have a family of my own I’ll fight for traditional marriage till I die.”
With any luck that won’t be much longer. Feel free to take your family with you.
“To claim the tide is turning, or you are somehow winning this war, is to ignore the 31 out of 31 voter initiatives that have banned SSM.”
Not at all. It’s only a matter of time before each and every one of those is overturned. And don’t get ahead of yourself: Maine voters vetoed a single law. They didn’t enshrine bigotry into their state constitution like the others. That door is still wide open.
“Are you that blind to tell me that you are winning the war when less than 24 hours ago Maine just voted against your cause?”
And D.C. voters stood with us. You’re blind if you can’t see that things are already turning around. Your victories are temporary; ours will be permanent.
“You’re like the guy on Monty Python and the Holy Grail that gets all of his limbs cut off and is still picking a fight with the guy that dismembered him.”
You say that like it’s a bad thing. Personally, I have always been inspired by the Black Knight’s can-do spirit and unwillingness to quit. I’d expect that, though, from a coward like yourself.
“Reality is here if you want it.”
I’ve got more than enough, thank you. I don’t need the artificial “reality” being sold by mor(m)on bigots like yourself. Mundane underwear is just as good as the magic stuff.
“SSM isn’t about equality.”
That’s an interesting take on it. It’s a lie, but it’s an interesting one. Or at least an amusing one.
“It’s about redefining marriage.”
Yeah, because that’s never been done before. Your own “church” did it when they backtracked on the polygamy nonsense. Same thing with interracial marriage. And it will be redefined again when SSM takes hold from coast to coast. It will probably even be redefined again in the future. If you care so much about marriage, stop trying to deny it to us. You’d be doing a lot more if you just outlawed divorce. Of course, you and your ilk wouldn’t dream of it. Why? Because you’re selfish, arrogant fuckwits.
“Homosexuals and heterosexuals are all able to marry the opposite sex.”
So, if the roles were reversed, I assume you’d be perfectly content to marry another man. Glad to have that cleared up.
“If you want to use those reproductive parts the way they were intended you can have a marriage all day long in all 50 States.”
And just how, pray tell, were they intended? Because it seems to me that cocks and asses go together quite nicely. There’s a reason the higher power put the prostate where it is, you know.
“When you want tell me that a Phillips head will work on a Flathead screw I have the right to say NO dice.”
Your metaphor is shoddy. You’d have done better to use a “square peg/round hole” analogy, or something like that. Obviously the only thing on your mind is screwing.
Just admit that you’re a bigot, Rod. Admit that you harbor an irrational hatred toward GLBT people, and that you prefer to use your money and votes to legislate discrimination. Admit that you believe you have a monopoly on morality and that anyone who is not a mor(m)on is irredeemable and destined for hell. Admit that you’re a cunt. It feels better to say it out loud.
LUV2BH8D
Golly gee whiz Vern, that was sure a mouthful. Probably something you’re used to though. Even though posts 3, 12, 16, 24, 26, 29, 31, 35, 41, 42 and 45 all violate the page posting policy, I doubt this post will stay long, if it even makes it onto the board at all. But hey, the page space is needed to debase Mormonism. Further, we know how your kind feel about opposing points of view, so whatever.
You and Rodney can go back and forth and never change each other’s minds, so why bother? Although props to Rod for his rational explanation of his position. You on the other hand just call people names and spout $h!t about those opposing views I mentioned. This is where you and I find common ground. You think religion is F’ed up and so many “religious” people think sticking ones junk up another dude’s poop shoot chute is equally F’ed. I guess we’re entitled to our opinion though. You know what they say about opinions, right? Something else you have firsthand knowledge of.
You made the comment that bigots are made and not born. You are absolutely correct in that statement and most comments on this board prove this and solidify the respective opinion.
Anyway, since you called BS and want Mormons to call a spade a spade, here’s ONE Mormon (I can’t speak for all Mormons and God knows I’m not a typical Mormon. As you can see Cam, I’m not following the “play book”) who will say, yes I am a bigot. Yes, I hate people, gays included that condemn me for my beliefs and yes, I don’t want them on or near my property. I don’t want to see your freak show gay, gay-pride flaunting of your lifestyle. And beyond the definition of Man/Woman marriage, I don’t want homosexual married couples on my company’s group healthcare plan. “The HIV” just will make my costs go up and Obamacare isn’t going to change that. This is how SSM would impact my life, the lives of my children and society and all these young progressive voters will figure that out too when they have to pay their own way in this world, so good luck with the 18-22 year olds. However, your comments have impacted my opinion on Same Sex Relations among men though. It may not be such a bad thing after all…
1.Same sex couples can’t procreate. No little Verns without an egg donor.
2.http://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/docs/FastFacts-MSM-FINAL508COMP.pdf
There is no cure. This is my “permanent victory”. Catch you later, I gotta go put a load of magic underwear in the dryer….
rodney
LUV2BH8D, Thanks for bringing some sense to the table. I had a rebuttal typed up for “venomous vern” and his borderline death threats but I just deleted it. If anything I thought the Maine vote would dispel the myth that standing for Traditional Marriage is not exclusively a Mormon thing. Furthermore, DC citizens didn’t vote on gay marriage, it was the legislature (just like every other time it’s been introduced). Then again, DC has HIV rates that rival South Africa’s, so why should we look to them for moral direction regarding homosexuality? Homosexuals experience more depression, live shorter lives, and transmit STD’s more than any other group in America, yet they want to dictate to everyone else what the definition of a Family is and what a marriage is. Interesting.
rodney
http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/civil-religion/interfaith/2009/11/evangelicals-and-mormons-in-dialogue/
“Rockstar Status”
When the Gays give Mormons all the attention, Conservatives take note. This would not have been possible without the tireless religious intolerance Homosexuals display toward Mormons. Vern can’t even type the word “Mormon” without adding in a jab “mor(m)on”. Intolerance towards Mormons has its positive side effects. Imagine pushing the Evangelical powers together with the Mormon powers, Muslim powers, Catholic powers, etc. Vern and the gayng has created a worldwide, Traditional Marriage supporting, unstoppable juggernaut.
Landon Bryce
Rodney:
Most religious clothing marks the wearer publicly. Mormons wanted the hocus pocus aspect of religious clothing without the wearer being branded a loon. That’s why it is cowardly.
Again, Brigham Young’s followers ordered the massacre. You need to understand that you are not the chosen people– Mormons never had the right to come to any area, expel the gentiles, steal their land, and remake the laws of the United States in the image of theocracy. You think your religion puts you above other people. That’s why you think the Mountain Meadows massacre was the result of persecution, not behavior typical of the bunch of immoral thugs the nineteenth century polygamist Mormons undeniably were.
But Rodney, you are so stupid you believe people in the time of the Bible were able to come to America from Israel by boat. How can you expect intelligent, rational people to take you seriously?
Oh You Mormons
I think my favorite comment by Mormons here is how understanding their church is of the gays. I am not even going to go into the black issue, because that is a whole other can of worms that just goes to show how bigoted they are. In Boyd k. Packer’s talk in the 1976 Priesthood Geriatric, err General Conference, he said:
*********
It was intended that we use this power only with our partner in marriage. I repeat, very plainly, physical mischief with another man is forbidden. It is forbidden by the Lord.
There are some men who entice young men to join them in these immoral acts. If you are ever approached to participate in anything like that, it is time to vigorously resist.
While I was in a mission on one occasion, a missionary said he had something to confess. I was very worried because he just could not get himself to tell me what he had done.
After patient encouragement he finally blurted out, “I hit my companion.”
“Oh, is that all,” I said in great relief.
“But I floored him,” he said.
After learning a little more, my response was “Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn’t be well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way.”
I am not recommending that course to you, but I am not omitting it. You must protect yourself.
*********
This was turned into a pamphlet called “To Young Men Only” and distributed to young men for years (it was not printed in the Ensign because it was a *sensitive* topic). As you can see, Packer basically thanked an elder for hitting his companion for coming onto him. Many Mormons I have talked to still do not see this being a problem; some have even said, “Yeah, I would have hit them too.” But think about it – what if a general authority had said that a guy had hit a girl who was coming onto him and then thanked him for it? I think the answers you would get from Mormons would be very different in this case even today.
But what I like most is what Mr. Oaks said in his 1995 talk called “Same-Gender Attraction.” Despite Packer encouraging young men to “vigorously resist” gays by doing things such as hitting them (this is the only example he gives of how to deal when approached by a gay, actually), Oaks said:
*********
Our doctrines obviously condemn those who engage in so-called “gay bashing” — physical or verbal attacks on persons thought to be involved in homosexual or lesbian behavior.
*********
Perhaps Oaks never listened to Packer’s talk or read the pamphlet that his own church was distributing for years, but for some reason I doubt it. I find it appalling that the Mormons can blatantly go against minority groups and then pretend that it never happened, shifting the blame elsewhere each and every time. If you try to find Packer’s “To Young Men Only,” it has completely been removed from any of the church’s sites. This also goes for Packer’s talk “To the One” which was also offensive to gays, or Spencer W. Kimball’s “A Letter to a Friend” which in reference to homosexuals said: “Men who die may live again, but when the spiritual death is total, it were better that such a man were never born.” While I am on the topic of history the church has tried to hide, my personal favorite is a talk given by Ronald E. Poelman of the 1st quorum of the 70 in the 1984 general conference. It was titled “The Gospel and the Church” and was about using our agency. However, apparently this didn’t go over to well with church leaders, and after Poelman had given his talk, the leaders changed it in the Ensign (the monthly church magazine) as well as in video tapes of the conference… they actually had Poelman redo his talk using a cough track to make it sound like he was doing it in front of a live audience, and didn’t tell anyone they were making changes. What had been a talk about agency sounded more like a talk about following church leaders when they were done with it. The church claims that Poelman himself requested the changes be made, but I also find this unlikely. He was not invited to speak again for over 4 years in a conference, and as a result the church now makes leaders submit a copy of their talk that is reviewed and approved before given in General Conference. And this is coming from a church that claims to be led by prophets, seers and revelators; should they not know if someone is going to say something wrong in advance, or at least be led by their so-called spirit into speaking the truths?
These are the deceitful men that are taking away the rights of minorities and pretending they have been defenders of marriage all along. The former Mormon prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley, said about the marriage in the temple:
*********
That facility was erected and dedicated for the performance of the sacred ordinances which the Lord has revealed in this time, and among those sacred ordinances is that of marriage for time and all eternity. (Gordon B. Hinckley, Inspirational Thoughts, Ensign, August 1997, 3)
*********
Thus marriage is defined as an ordinance. Here is a quote from the founder of Mormonism, Joseph Smith Jr. (It is on page 22 of the August 2001 Ensign):
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The Prophet Jospeph Smith taught, Ordinances? instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed.
*********
Thus marriage, according to the Mormons, is defined as an ordinance, and should not be changed. The same Dallin H. Oaks as mentioned above has said:
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The ancient order of marriage is the divinely sanctioned union, recognized by the state, between one man and one woman.*
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We follow Jesus Christ by adhering to God’s law of marriage, which is marriage between one man? and one woman. This commandment has been in place from the very beginning.
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Note in his remarks that he says “one woman” and not “many women.” However, that is definitely not what early church leaders like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were doing with their many, many wives. The church has no right to define what they think proper marriage is. The Mormon church – no, the LD$ coropration – is out for money and power, and has openly discriminated against those who are not part of their Aryan (= white heterosexual in this case) race. Karma is getting them through the internet with an increasing number of members hemorrhaging out, as well as less success in their missionary work as in past times.
It’s about time. 😉
JimMissy
Thinking about Joining a Mormon Church. Later you will discover that the Mormon Jesus is Satan’s brother and God is flesh even tho the Holy Bible declares that He is Spirit. That Jesus cannot save us by faith alone as the Holy Bible declares we can be but they add works before faith.
Interesting how Joseph Smith attacks who God the Father is, Who God the Son is and who God the Holy Spirit is and we are saved by faith alone. The very heart is what Satan is after. To stop the heart is to stop life. Joseph Smith was placed in Jail and someone smuggled a gun to him and he shot it to stop the heart. Think about it.
Jim
@HiveRadical: @HiveRadical:
Wow! Hard to believe its 2011 with so many sheep flocking to the abymal fraud that is all religion.
Michael
Black people have their sins forgiven by the sign of the covenant of God by sending Albino skin. It is the sign of Covenant to remove the curse of Cain, when he slew Abel. God announced by the sign of the covenant of Albinoids, that the sins of Cain are blot out. God is merciful.