QUEERTY SELECTS — The gap, and frustration, between “old” and “young” gays is not a new phenomenon. Mark Harris’ take on it, however, breathes new insight. Is the AIDS epidemic the great separator between older gays (who, if they’re alive to read this, likely lost many friends in the 80s) and younger gays (for which AIDS is barely concern, and if it is, it’s a “manageable” one). Is it our approach to activism, where older gays march with steadfast demands and younger gays protest with sing-song-y hope? We’re stereotyping generational vantage points, of course, but as Harris quotes 40-year-old The Advocate editor Jon Barrett, “On its simplest level, we think they’re naïve. And they think we’re old.” Happy Stonewall.
ggreen
If gay men over thirty didn’t think everyone over 30 was disgusting we might get somewhere.
rainboltart
I think Jon Barrett is correct. I also think that comment can be applied to most intergenerational relationships. “Youth is wasted on the young.” “Old people forget what it is to be young.”
dontblamemeivotedforhillary
I think older gays are resigned to the fact that (they) will be burying the young, too!
Bri
I love that picture. I have it saved. I can’t wait until I’m old and I can carry around a sign like that. Just a huge “fuck you.”
drresol
As a 28-year old gay man, I take some offense to being so casually summarized…
I was ostracized by my family for being gay years ago, so I don’t feel particularly privileged or immune to prejudice. I have several friends dying of AIDs, so I’m under no delusion that it’s no longer a threat. It’s a cold shadow we live under every day. Here in the south, it’s still dangerous for us to display PDA’s or a rainbow sticker on our car (and by dangerous, I mean violently dangerous). And in 2000, I was arrested and put in jail for a night; the charge being “acts of homosexuality” (my boyfriend and I were spotted kissing in a public park…JUST kissing, mind you)
And yet, I try to be responsible. I volunteer for our local GLBT groups. I try to vote responsibly…sorry to be so lengthy, but I think it needed to be stated that not everyone in my generation lives inside the bubble the article describes.
Richard in DC
I think a big hurdle to the commingling of older gays with younger gays is one of biology. Baby Gays don’t come from Older Gays, our procreation is seemingly random. Therefor, while other minorities locked in struggle can pass along stories and ambitions from mother to child, we gays need to actively reach out to previous generations. Perhaps this is something we should be more conscientious of.
M Shane
The major issue between young and older gays, whenever their is one, is that there has become less and less of any Gay community. This has a basis in assimilation fantasy and the belief that all we have really in common is sex, hence people middle aged people tend to conciously gravitate toward people they see as potential fucks., since they are prety despirate. Younger gay people don’t generally mind talking to people who are older because they don’t feel the despiration that middle aged guys do.
I don’t understand that younger people don’t fear aids. Most older people who are around who had sex often had much more than middle aged people now, and probably have a lot more in common and a lot to tell people about the better days of gay community.
Fitz
We have become sadly divided. Even the bars.. you know, it’s SO highly striated here…. bars for bears, for leather daddies, for old people, for tweakers, for Opera queens, etc. Never shall me meet because we are into different drag? sigh… That is why (and this is not an ad) I love the Beer Bust at the SF Eagle.. so many varied homos hanging out on a sunday, it’s kid of beautiful even if you wont get laid.
In the old days we had community centers, and more interaction with each other. Even with AIDS, we used to volunteer to clean people’s homes or walk their dogs. And for years I have (very unofficially) been sent my friends & family’s queer teens to try to bond with (and show an alternative to the media image). Maybe we just need to all reach out across generations more. I am sure I could do a lot more.
Religion_Hurts
This article misses the point – GAY IS STILL WRONG and there is only one thing that makes it wrong – RELIGION.
HRC and other “gay rights” groups continue to avoid this primary cause of gay suffering. That is the battle that must be fought and the older generation was simply too afraid of that fight.
As more young people grow up without religious brain-washing, gay has become more “tolerated,” and while this seems like progress – it isn’t. There is absolutely nothing wrong with us that requires us to be “tolerated.” Seeking tolerance was and is the biggest mistake of the gay rights movement. Sure protesting and even civil disobedience can be helpful, but we have the wrong targets. Conservatives are not the enemy – they believe gays are wrong because that’s their religious belief. They probably inherited that belief before they could even think, as a child. Instead of directing all of our attention at the believers, we must attack the belief.
Maybe it is time for the gay generational divide to be filled with a concerted effort to “end the wrong” by neutralizing the effect of religious dogma and its resulting hatred for gays. Religion is just a story – it isn’t and has never been the truth. The truth is “nobody knows” for sure and that’s okay.
Even discussing religion has been taboo for many years and yet this is the primary source of gay suffering and mistreatment. For every act of gay-bashing or hatred God is nearby. While religion may have a place in modern society, having the ability to make an entire class of people wrong, is unacceptable.
I am a 46 year old gay man living in Dallas, Texas. For the first 35 years of my life Jesus prevented me for being who and what I am. I was scared to Hell before my first erection. Because of Jesus I lost my youth. So, yeah I’m a little pissed. I also feel sorry for the many young gay teens that commit suicide because they too are “wrong” or defective in God’s eyes.
So you can feel empathy for me, the older gay guy, or for the innocent teens who take their own lives – but PLEASE DO SOMETHING.
We are wasting our time and energy with politics – focus on the real source of gay hatred – religion. Not just radical or extremists, but all religion. Remember, it is the ONLY thing that makes gay WRONG.
END THE WRONG and we will END THE HATE.
Religion Hurts – make it stop.
HayYall
@Religion_Hurts: You paint with too broad a brush.
Deal with your religion issues, then come back and make an intelligent post.
Qjersey
The people that are helping to promote AIDS ambivalence (the owners of bars, bathhouses, sexclubs and porn companies) are all over 30.
So it ain’t the “twinks” fault. Our own generation has sold out the gay community in pursuit of profits (because you know AIDS is a wood killer…).
Fitz
@Qjersey: I don’t think that pro sex = pro ambivalence. I care very much about my serostatus. And I care very much about my sex life.
Religion_Hurts
@HayYall: I don’t have any “religion issues.” It’s very easy – religion is the only thing that makes gay “wrong.” If we want rights we need to stop letting religion make us wrong. Playing politics will never work because the “believers” are never going to change their minds.
During the last 10 years an estimated $1 billion has been spent nationwide to “lobby politicians” and “change some minds.” As far as we can tell only 7 politicians changed their “votes” and probably not their minds. By focusing on the believers, instead of the belief, we are just wasting our time and money.
Religion has put the idea that “gay is wrong” into our minds – even before we could think. Well, wake up. If you really want equal rights you need to END THE WRONG. Our battle is not with Republicans, Conservatives and bigots – they all got their ideas from religion. That’s the only fight that can provide equal rights and end the shame of being gay.
Republican
Sorry, religionhurts, a lot of people are both gay/gay-friendly and religious. Apparently you think only the fundamentalists have churches.
adolf
what about the people who are stuck between? the 25-35yr olds. who remember the days of people dieing in the first AIDS out break? and the ones who were coming of age right when the gay 2.0(?) marches? the ones who know AIDS isnt just “manageable”?
where do we fit in? our we the lost gays?
Religion_Hurts
@Republican: What religion do you have? If it is Christian then you belong to a group that makes you wrong, sinner, going to hell, otherwise you can’t be a Christian. Plus, anyone who is enlightened knows that ALL religion is a story. Sure, maybe one of them can actually be true, but none is confirmed true. Using “faith” doesn’t make it true – faith is just the ability to believe something you cannot prove. So, that’s where you are – believing something you cannot prove. I can prove religion is the cause of almost ALL gay suffering and hatred. That is an indisputable fact… no faith required.
TANK
So now that osteoporosis has been ruled out, what’s left? Oh, right…liking cock. Unfortunately, that’s just not enough for anything, really. But more power to you young guys who like olds and olds who like young guys (basically, all of you).
Some Religion Heals
@Religion_Hurts: I’m sorry, but this Democrat agrees with Republican. A majority of christians actually support equal rights for gay people, as several studies have shown. According to David Kinnaman’s research, released in 2007, the belief that the Bible condemns homosexuality is waning among christians. Evangelicals are an exception, but they’re only about a fourth of all christians now.
You say “our battle is not with…bigots” but with people of faith. Which ones? The Unitarian Universalists? The Liberal Catholic Church? The United Church of Christ? The Quakers? Unity Church? Metropolitan Community Church? Metropolitan Christian Church? Soulforce? All of those groups are outspoken in their belief that there’s nothing wrong with being gay – and all but one contribute time and money to support gay equal rights.
galefan2004
I don’t think its that black and white. I don’t think there is only young and old. I think you really need to look at all of the different generations. The 20 year old gays did not experience what the 30 year old gays did. The 30 year old gays did not experience what the 40 year old gays did (and it goes on of course). I think there are major generational gaps in the gay/lesbian movement. the truth is the whole movement is completely segmented by a lot more that just age.
galefan2004
@ggreen: Nicely said.
galefan2004
@Religion_Hurts: What you fail to realize is how wrong you are. Religion does not make gay wrong. People think gay is wrong then use religion to justify that. Religion does nothing that people don’t use it to do. Its like a tool. You don’t blame the hammer for breaking the glass, you blame the person using the hammer. Also, your claim that religion is the only thing that makes gay unacceptable fails to take into account non-religious and even atheistic people that still think gay is wrong.
galefan2004
@adolf: I think it gets more complicated that just the AIDS issue. The very year I came out to myself Mathew Shepherd was killed. To make a long story short, I promised my mother I would never be out and active because she was afraid for my life, and I kept that promise since then. For kids that didn’t live through Mathew Shepherd, I think its much easier to imagine the world as a safe place to be out.
galefan2004
@Some Religion Heals: Lets be a little more honest. While all these groups support gay rights NATIONALLY they don’t exactly do it from parish to parish (more rural areas have more conditional parishes). Also, a good many of those organizations think being gay is A-ok as long as you don’t act on those urges (have sexual relations with the same sex).
TANK
@Some Religion Heals:
There is slight change amongst, say, christians in this country. But the vast majority of christians in this country believe that homosexuality is immoral and do not believe in equal rights. But you’re right, there is movement amongst self identified christians in our favor. However, that clearly has nothing to do with christianity and their faith and everything to do with exposure to lgbt people and secular values that are slowly replacing the religious ones on this issue. Why? Because the “religious values” haven’t changed. And please don’t bring up the pathetically small UU churchers. MOderates aid and abet fundamentalists and fundamentalism, and do nothing to convince them that they’re wrong…as in doing so, they appeal to very same authority. People who, when they appeal to their religion to condemn homosexuality, are talked to by people who claim the same or similar faith in doing so look at them as failed christians.
TANK
@galefan2004:
That’s true. I just have very little to say to most gay people anyway. It’s not age, but different interests and experiences. I don’t, however, feel alienated or like an outsider because there’s just no substantive ground to justify such an emotion.
But you’re definitely right. Generational gaps, however, shrink in light of smaller gaps in age. Aside from generational indexical topics and similar life experience, I can on occasion talk more freely and with more rigorous attention to conversational detail with older gay men than with younger gay men. I don’t think I’m alone here…but other than on those generational/experiential neutral topics, it’s few and far between as many of the older gay men are gay men, of course, and enjoy talking about sex, and i (once again “i” don’t think I’m alone here) have no interest there.
Some Religion Heals
@galefan2004: I realize that some denominations, such as Presbyterian and Episcopalian groups, are struggling with this issue and vary from parish to parish. However, I listed the ones that are fairly consistent and of which I’m fairly knowledgeable. One or two parishes might disagree with the national denominations, but I’d be real surprised if they were even a substantial minority. If you mean that not all the local churches are actively campaigning for gay equality, that much is probably true. In any case, I’m reasonably certain that none of the groups I listed expect gay people to refrain from having sexual relations with the same sex. Again, there are others that do.
Some Religion Heals
@TANK: The numbers simply do not bear out your claim that most christians think homosexuality is immoral. In fact, one large survey specifically asked if the respondent believed society should accept homosexuality. Christians were more likely than not to say it should. This grew to majorities approaching 60% for Roman Catholics and mainline Protestants.
The change on this issue among Christians is far from slight. It’s a seismic shift that’s drawn substantial news coverage and is reflected in several studies. For whatever reason, you’re making claims that are flatly untrue.
TANK
The numbers simply do not bear out your claim that most christians think homosexuality is immoral.
According to gallup, in 2007, 49% of americans in general (not necessarily christian identified) believed that homosexuality was morally okay, whereas 47% believed it it was morally wrong.
In 2005, catholics were asked whether ratzinger should maintain the traditional policies of the church or change those policies to reflect catholics today, and 80% of catholics in the u.s. said that he should maintain traiditional policies…traditional policies like the condemnation of homosexuality.
57% of americans, according to gallup, oppose same sex marriage…and consider that this is a christian country (unfortunately), that opposition isn’t coming from the nonreligious. Only 55% of democrats are in favor of same sex marriage, 45% of independents, only 20% of republicans.
Only 28% of Americans believe that gays or lesbians should not be hired as elementary school teachers.
As to the morality of homosexuality, if AMERICANS (not necessarily christian identified) are, according to GALLUP, evenly divided, then it is obvious than christians are not evenly divided, and that the MAJORITY of christians DO believe that homosexuality is morally wrong in the united states.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/108115/Americans-Evenly-Divided-Morality-Homosexuality.aspx
TANK
Just bringing up one or two demominations does not “christianity in the united states” represent in your claim. In any event, I feel confident you’re wrong, and have provided the link to gallup polling data to back up my claim.
Don’t participate in a gunfight with a stick.
TANK
For whatever reason, you’re making claims that are flatly untrue.
DOn’t ever accuse me of making a false claim without being able to back it up. I hope this lesson keeps you humble about the state of christianity and lgbt tolerance in this country.
TANK
And what is it, 56% or 55% of catholics…or somewhere not near 58% believe that homosexuality is morally “okay” in the u.s.? That’s not near 60%, despite your hopeful rhetoric. ANd even so, 40% of catholics who believe it’s morally wrong is a BIG FUCKING NUMBER.
tarheel
alas, alas-why don’t we see our similarities so we will have something in common other than being GAY.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
But you’re making an assumption – not using an actual poll of christians. There are hard-line churches, but there are also a number of major ones in which support for marriage equality and gay clergy is growing and will eventually be won.
And even in faiths which are strictly opposed (catholics, mormons, fundamentalists) there are some people who believe in tolerance.
Catholics in particular have a record of greater tolerance on some issues than many protestants, their churhc hierarchy notwithstanding.
So no, it may not be over 50% yet, but I think it is just a matter of time.
Look at the numbers on DADT in this poll:
http://www.queerty.com/holy-crap-religious-conservatives-more-supportive-of-military-gays-than-ever-before-20090606/
TANK
And if you’d care to peruse the numbers on “christians worldwise” who oppose homosexuality, and believe that it’s immoral, you’re about to get humbled even more. And further, my claim that it’s not “christian values” responsible, but increased visability of glbt people and secular values responsible for this shift in attitude remains intact. last time I checked, that prada slipper wearing nazi FUCK and the official catholic dogma still vehemently oppose gay rights and believe that homosexuality is immoral.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Well, with well over 80% of americans identifying as christian in some way, it’s not an invalid inference. In fact, the suggestion of the contrary is idiotic.
TANK
And don’t me wrong. I don’t oppose christianity…be a christian, who gives a fuck. I oppose dogma of any kind. Dogma kills, wherever it is found.
TANK
AN irrelevant (to this topic…though…this whole exhange between some religion heals and religion hurts and my contributions in this thread is not relevant), but equally important aside….28% of americans believe that evolution is false…that’s a startling number for a theory as sound as gravity, for chrissakes. IT is as well established as any other theory in science…actually, better than many in physics! THis is an idictment against education in the u.s. It’s maddening!
TANK
@TANK:
and since it’s already completely fucking derailed, a plug. I hope everyone here reads Richard Dawkins’ “the greatest show on earth: the evidence for evolution”.
strumpetwindsock
Religious belief may not change, but tolerance does, and the two things are not always directly related.
The best example I can think of is the 1981 referendum on abortion in Italy, when 80 percent of that predominantly catholic nation voted to support choice.
Religion_Hurts
Thank you Tank for researching those numbers.
Thinking people understand that religion is the ONLY thing that has made gay wrong for centuries. It’s time to enlighten people about religion – it’s just a story. Remarkably, an ancient (and incredibly unbelievable) story has made a whole class of people “wrong.” in fact, the only class of people singled out by religion. It’s time to fight back.
Plus, any reference to “tolerance” is just not enough. Gay people DO NOT need to be TOLERATED. They are not defective, or unworthy or somehow dangerous – THEY ARE EQUAL.
You can’t be a Christian and believe it’s okay to be gay. That is against the rules. A few smaller churches have accepted gays, but stop short of saying they’re not wrong. They just accept them. I’d call this marketing, not a change in beliefs.
The new battle for gays is with religion – when ignorance is gone, religion will follow.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
And do you attribute this to religious values founded in bible study and the catholic faith?
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Obviously not, since the catholic church is opposed to abortion.
But that referendum is clearly an example of how tolerance does not always bend to the dogma of a person’s faith, since a majority of those who voted in that overwhelming referendum result were most certainly catholic.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
That was never my position. My position is that the church and church attitude isn’t responsible for the change in attitude. Christianity for centuries has always been on the vanguard of hate and supression of progress. That’s religion’s purpose: to preserve meme (harmful beliefs and practices attributable to those beliefs) through ritual and habituation. Once you remove that (god decree wrong; divine command idiocy), you remove religion– for then it has no power or vested interest in combating “perceived” real world folly.
Or, to quote my favorite philosopher:
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Well you know I don’t entirely agree with you on THAT dogmatic position, but we’ve been around the block on this one a few times already.
Martens
I agree with TANK and RELIGION_HURTS
Only because some Christians have social views that go against Christian dogma, like being pro-gay, does not mean Christianity isn’t anti-gay. Read the Bible, for chrissakes – the holy book of Christianity – it prescribes death penalty for homosexuality, and condemnation of homosexuality (unlike other Old Testament sins) is still present in New Testament, in Paul’s letters for example.
Any advance of gay rights that we have achieved in the West has been done in spite of Christianity, not because of it. Anyone who thinks he can be gay and still be Christian is deluding himself or herself or is insane from self-hatred.
I won’t go as far as to say that all religion is incompatible with being gay – some of the Eastern religions couldn’t give a toss about your sexual orientation – but this is certainly true for Christianity, Islam and Judaism.
schlukitz
@TANK:
THis is an idictment against education in the u.s. It’s maddening
Right on, brother!
http://washingtontimes.com/national/200 … -4947r.htm
Eight out of 10 Americans believe God guided creation in some capacity. A Gallup Poll reveals that 46 percent think God created man in his present form sometime in the past 10,000 years, while 36 percent say man developed over millions of years from lesser life forms, but God guided the process.
Only 13 percent of Americans think mankind evolved with no divine intervention.
And get this. A Gallup Poll says that 42% of Republicans think that evolution is false.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/27847/majority-republicans-doubt-theory-evolution.aspx
God Bless America!
schlukitz
@Religion_Hurts:
The new battle for gays is with religion – when ignorance is gone, religion will follow
I’m with you, kiddo.
schlukitz
@Martens:
but this is certainly true for Christianity, Islam and Judaism
And they are the ones that have wreaked the most damage on mankind.
DuttyBarb
Hello people…
I quite agree with the tone of this conversation.@Martens, i couldn’t agree more.
I will like to believe i am a christian and have friends and family who are christian. So called Gay Christians..what an oxymoron. Christianity does not condone homosexuality and any church that or so called religious body that does so is what i call..a HYPOCRITE and a false teaching ground. In the end times the bible talks of a churches like that, the ones that intentionally corrupt the Word of God so it can cater to sinful practices. Read the entire book of Revelations in the Bible. And do not insult God by saying he created you gay…that will be to say our God is a sinful one.
The bible is not a book for selective reading. You cant read some parts and ignore the rest. Homosexuality is stated as an abomination against God and it is listed with Incest and Bestiality. Im sure you gays now get why most opponents of your cause lump you in the same category.. You cant mention homosexuality without raising these points so..hem…sorry.
You cannot convince true Christians, Muslims or Jews to support you on this. Kindly note i said “true” not DignityUSA or whatever so called LGBT “church” you people use.
BTW, why do you not attack Muslim faith and its brutal antagonism towards your lifestyle? Why are christians the only point of hostility? Is it maybe because you know fully well that there is no such thing as liberal Islam and it is really a hopeless cause?
Be thankful that Christianity and Judaism does not exact the kind of justice our Islam brothers take on you people or you wont even have this website.
schlukitz
@DuttyBarb:
Top of the morning to you, Cuntessa.
that will be to say our God is a sinful one
But he is, Blanche. He is!
The bible is not a book for selective reading. You cant read some parts and ignore the rest
Exactly. So why bother reading it at all. None of it makes any fucking sense anyway!
You cannot convince true Christians, Muslims or Jews to support you on this
Why would anyone want to take away their only justification for bigotry, hatred and discrimination?
BTW, why do you not attack Muslim faith and its brutal antagonism towards your lifestyle? Why are christians the only point of hostility
Because we do not live under a Muslim regime; we live under a Christian regime, dummy!
Be thankful that Christianity and Judaism does not exact the kind of justice our Islam brothers take on you people or you wont even have this website
And be thankful that you do not live in a male-dominated, Islam saturated society where they put bags over the heads of shrews like you and would probably stuff your vile mouth with rags. Too bad Puritan days are ended. You’d look real cute walking around in the village square in a Scold’s Bridle with a metal spike to hold your hateful tongue down. Now there was a “tradition” that definitely should have been maintained.
I have no doubt, that you would revel in the kind of justice that your Island brothers would take on, as you put it “you people”. I am surprised that you didn’t say “your kind”.
Now go douche with some lye to sweeten up your disposition.
Oh…and do have a horrid day. You deserve it.
schlukitz
@DuttyBarb:
By the way…do you read your bible before, during or after your closeted, carpet-munching sessions?
DuttyBarb
@schlukitz
Hello.
Maybe i should just stoop to your level and throw back silly childish remarks. But i wont.
God is not a sinful one. I wont blanche,dear as it is Him not me u are insulting. God made you in His Image and He loves you. He changed my life and has been the backbone of my survival.
You sound like an empty drum that is in need of His fulfilling and soul changing life force..I will pray for you.
strumpetwindsock
@DuttyBarb:
If the bible is not a book for selective reading then I suppose you support slavery, polygamy, genocide, and women being completely obedient to their husbands..
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the bible has been used to justify almost anything someone wants it to say. People have even used it to justify things that aren’t even written in it.
schlukitz
@DuttyBarb:
Maybe i should just stoop to your level and throw back silly childish remarks. But i wont
Oh go ahead. You know you want to. Why not Let it all hang out…like those, pendulous, over-sized mammary glands God stuck you with to drag through life. You are amongst friends, you know?
I wont blanche,dear as it is Him not me u are insulting
Apparently, your reading and comprehension skills are not high on your list of social accomplishments. I called you Blanche, as in Blanche DuBois from Streetcar Named Desire not as in to make pale, as with sickness or fear. But I do understand about your lack of knowledge about the theatre. Reading the bible must eat up humongous amounts of your leisure time.
God made you in His Image and He loves you
Of course he did, dear. Evolution didn’t have a thing to do with it! I’m certain that you are one of those Christers that is demanding that Creationism be taught in our public school system paid for with our tax dollars, and to the total exclusion of science and evolution. It’s so, oh how shall we say, Christian of you?
He changed my life and has been the backbone of my survival
Really? I do hope that people have not been too mean about the horns you sprouted and the large hump that appeared on your back. People can be very cruel. Oh…but you already knew that, didn’t you?
You sound like an empty drum
Hmm…the only drum sound I seem to hear, is the one you keep banging on about queers getting their just desserts. I know that would just make your day for you, cretin that you are.
soul changing
Instead of spending so much time concerning yourself about soul changing, perhaps you should give to some consideration to changing your Tampax? Yours is really beginning to smell quite objectionable, you know?
I will pray for you
Awww…that is so sweet. Not to worry about little ole me, however. Instead, I would encourage you to devote copious quantities of time to praying for your own soul because you are going to have a lot of explaining to do when you finally do meet Satin and not the St. Peter you were hoping to have greet you at the Pearly While Gates.
Surprise. Surprise!
Death’s a bitch, ain’t it?
schlukitz
@strumpetwindsock:
the bible has been used to justify almost anything someone wants it to say. People have even used it to justify things that aren’t even written in it
They call it faith. ;-P
We call it what it really is.
Ignorance and stupidity.
strumpetwindsock
@schlukitz:
I wouldn’t say all of it is ignorance and stupidity (nor that all atheists are free from superstition and discrimination).
But a lot of people have used it as an excuse to shut their ears to things they do not want to hear.
Republican
I love it when atheists act like all believers are stupid, uneducated rednecks. I am a mathematician. In my field, I know of quite a few believers, including some of the top minds at excellent universities.
I am 100% gay, 100% Christian, and ashamed of neither. If anyone is upset by that, it’s their problem, not mine. If you choose to be small-minded and say that all Christians believe ___, when the very existence of so many denominations makes it absolutely clear that Christians disagree on everything from the nature of the trinity to the accuracy of the Bible, then that’s too bad.
schlukitz
@Republican:
So you are a mathemetician. So what? What does that prove? Can you put together a set of numbers that will convince me, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Christ ever walked upon this earth or that his daddy resides in the sky or some other mythical kingdom that we cannot see?
I can understand people who never finished grade or high school believing in Santa Claus, Peter Rabbit, the tooth-fairy, sky-pixies and sky-daddies, but ss long as I live, I shall never be able to comprehend how a learned, educated man of science who accepts evolution and the fossil records left behind, can hang it all up on a coat rack in the vestibule of his Church on Sunday morning and buy into the fairy tales, exaggerations and outright lies that are laid on the congregation from the pulpit.
A belief system based on improbable and unprovable fantasies and conjecture, is simply not compatible with the vast storehouse empirical evidence that has been collected by the scientific community to explain our existence on this planet.
Belief in the bible did not get us to the moon and beyond. Only science and a thorough understanding of physics allowed us to accomplish that feat.
If we were to listen to the bible, we would still be living in the dark ages where people were considered old at the age of 35. Our present understanding of the human body and how it works, enabled us to double that figure, not praying to some mythical god for a cure to all of our ailments and afflictions.
Try telling me that leprosy and all the other horrible physical and mental afflictions of mankind are the “loving gift of God”.
I’ll laugh in your face.
Perish the thought.
strumpetwindsock
@schlukitz:
See what I mean?
Instead of spouting stale old Christopher Hitchenisms at him why not just listen to what the man is saying.
I don’t share Republican’s Christian beliefs but I don’t try to pre-judge and insult them. And more importantly, I respect them, because there are a lot of religious people who do support us. In fact, a lot of religious people ARE US.
Don’t imagine that all your decisions and values are based on logic and solid evidence. At some point all of us rely on hunches, superstitions and intuition. And if you don’t think so you are fooling yourself.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
What superstitions do atheists hold? You yourself said that the bible can mean whatever one wants it to mean. What does imply about its meaningfulness if many inconsistent meanings are equally well supported by it?
TANK
If you choose to be small-minded and say that all Christians believe ___, when the very existence of so many denominations makes it absolutely clear that Christians disagree on everything from the nature of the trinity to the accuracy of the Bible, then that’s too bad.
If it’s your claim that there’s no commonground upon which two people from different denominations who call themselves christian have, then what is it that makes one christian? LOL! There’s a lot less substantive diversity amongst mainstream christianity than you think. It’s small minded to label people christian who, say, believe that jesus died for our sins? And sorry, just because there’s a pastor out there leading a tiny UU church in some urban area who preaches that the bible’s gay friendly does not mean that christians are largely gay friendly.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
MOre vagueness. People who are incidentally religious support us. To claim that it is because of their christian faith that they do support us is to contradict yourself.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Have you ever read christopher hitchens? STale old christopher hitchens? You do realize that his book hasn’t been in print as long as yours (the bible), right? I renew the charge that you’re a christian.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Yeah I have read hitchens, and heard him on the radio a few times. The man’s bloated ego looms a lot larger than his ideas. In the last interview I heard (CBC radio) he said he most enjoys winning arguments with people who wish they had never challenged him. So much for his commitment to the truth.
And if you don’t think hitchens and Dawkins are stale, go back and check how many times the term “sky pixie” has been tossed around on this site.
@TANK:
I agree that religion has been one of the most destructive forces in history, but to underestimate its positive influence like that is quite simply a lie. If you look at the facts you would know that gay support among churches is a significant and growing contingent, not just one church.
@TANK: And your beliefs are just as much based on hunches as anyone elses. Nothing we do or think is pure logic.
TANK
And if you don’t think hitchens and Dawkins are stale, go back and check how many times the term “sky pixie” has been tossed around on this site.
They’re minty fresh compared to any and all christian apologetics. This is a vacuous charge that deals with no argument and no fact. You wouldn’t want to take on any arguments against religion that either propose, would you?
I agree that religion has been one of the most destructive forces in history, but to underestimate its positive influence like that is quite simply a lie.
What unique positive influence has religion had that necessarily involved religion?
If you look at the facts you would know that gay support among churches is a significant and growing contingent, not just one church.
Okay, I’ve already addressed this. Most christians in the u.s. are antigay (believe it’s immoral); most christians worldwide are even more antigay. The official position of the largest christian denomination is virulently antigay.
TANK
And your beliefs are just as much based on hunches as anyone elses. Nothing we do or think is pure logic.
Okay, what beliefs of mine are based on hunches just like “anyone else’s” (I assume you mean atheism is just another religion, or some variation of that tired and false accusation)?
TANK
“nothing we do or think is pure logic” is pretty much a meaningless sentence if you were to use the actual meanings for those words.
DuttyBarb
Schulitz…
Arent you a bit old for this? Really??
RLS
@ggreen: And once again an issue in the gay community is boiled down to sexual desire.
TANK
@DuttyBarb:
Aren’t you a bit of a bigoted cunt for this site? What’s a hate filled cunt like you doing spewing your antigay venom on a gay site? Get lost ,asshole.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
“What unique positive influence has religion had that necessarily involved religion?”
I past discussions you have said that all the evil acts done in the name of religion are based on scripture, but all of the positive and humanitarian acts would have been done by people whether they were religious or not. It’s bullshit, TANK. You have to take the historical record at face value, and the fact is that a lot of social reform movements were based on Christian ethics, by religious people. And if you look at the current state of affairs there is still a good deal of reform being done through religious organizations.
And no, I am not denying any of the negative and destructive aspects of religion.
@TANK:
Do I need to re-state it in terms that you understand?
We do not make our decisions based solely on logic, but on subtler influences like intuition and experience. How is it logical that you like scotch more than beer? And how is it that you have so much ego attached to your argument if it is simply a logical exercise?
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Very incisive and logical, darling.
TANK
I past discussions you have said that all the evil acts done in the name of religion are based on scripture, but all of the positive and humanitarian acts would have been done by people whether they were religious or not.
No, you misunderstand. I’m saying that one doesn’t have to be religious to be humanitarian or do good things. This is a fact. One doesn’t need to be told that god commands them to assist someone else to assist them. And those humanitarian acts under the guise of religion were carried out largely for the benefit of the state or religion in question. And the evil of religion far outweighs the good.
It’s bullshit, TANK. You have to take the historical record at face value, and the fact is that a lot of social reform movements were based on Christian ethics, by religious people.
No. That’s not hte historical record and it contradcts what you’ve said. If the bible (the fount of christian ethics–“divine command theory”) can mean whatever someone wants it to mean, then these people merely wanted it to mean what they already believed.
And if you look at the current state of affairs there is still a good deal of reform being done through religious organizations.
That doesn’t justify the existence of religion nor the beliefs that underpin it. Once again, one doesn’t require religion to be ethical; in fact, the historical record shows that one is better off not being religious to be good.
TANK
Do I need to re-state it in terms that you understand?
We do not make our decisions based solely on logic, but on subtler influences like intuition and experience. How is it logical that you like scotch more than beer? And how is it that you have so much ego attached to your argument if it is simply a logical exercise?
You don’t know what logic means. You mean rational, not logical. Not everyone makes rational decisions; but no decision fails to be “logical”…in fact, nothing does if it’s quantifiable/something.
TANK
And if you think that there is no such thing as a rational decision–a decision made in light of and exclusively based upon the evidence…you’re sadly mistaken.
Not all decisions are rational, though.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
If as you say ethics are not dependent on religion then I guess you can’t blame any of that evil on religion either. Do you think there would be no evil in the world if religion did not exist?
(of course, you are going to trot out the book like any fundamentalist)
For that matter do you think people who are not religious behave all that more logically or ethically than those who are not?
TANK
If as you say ethics are not dependent on religion then I guess you can’t blame any of that evil on religion either.
These are your words. If you believe, as you seem to in repeating it over and again, that the bible means whatever one wants it to, then they believed what they wanted the bible to mean beforehand. As to this entailing that no evil comes from religion, you’d have believe that people would be just as homophobic in this the united states, for example, without religion. I don’t think that’s true. I think religion amplifies sexism and nurtures harmful belief.
The point is that ethics is a separate matter from religion. In other words, no one requires belief in god to be ethical and to do the right thing, even for the right reasons. I’m not saying that there aren’t components to religion that have caused people to do good things (do unto others as you would have done unto yourself or the golden rule is not a christian invention; it existed long before christianity); it’s just that they’re tied to harmful beliefs and dogma such that in the history of religion, it doesn’t seem like you can have religion without conflict and unnecessary suffering. So religion is simply not justified, for you can have the ethics without the bad things religion is repsonsible for like amplifying and encouraging/justifying sexism and homophobia.
Do you think there would be no evil in the world if religion did not exist?
Of course. But just because sexism, say, is wrong doesn’t mean religion is right, get it? In fact, sexism and christianity, judaism and islam are, a lot of the time, indistinguishable.
TANK
That is, of course there would be evil in the world if not for religion. There would be less of it, however…a lot less.
TANK
Religion is the enemy of rationality, too. And that can’t be good.
TANK
For that matter do you think people who are not religious behave all that more logically or ethically than those who are not?
Well, studies indicate that atheists are, on average, better educated and have higher IQ’s. There are stupid atheists, however, just like there are stupid christians. It’s harder to be an atheist, because one must have a greater respect for the truth than the reward of fantasy; to deny yourself the luxury of fictional stories to deal with real life concerns like, say, death. And, it’s harder to actually “think” through these things than to just accept them–to question the prevailing norms of society (christian belief in the united states) and conclude that they are baseless. One can’t really “behave” logically as there’s no way to behave illogically that is behavior….perhaps you rationally, again.
As to people behaving more ethically who aren’t religious–that’s not necessarily the case at all. But people who aren’t religious have one less barrier between them and behaving ethically–presumably, to behave ethically, one must also have some concern for the truth.
schlukitz
@DuttyBarb:
Arent you a bit old for this? Really??
I was going to ask you the exact same question.
if you can’t take the heat, why don’t you get out of the kitchen? After all, no asked you to come here in the first place.
Shoo. Shoo. You bother me!
Religion_Hurts
@strumpetwindsock:
“I don’t share Republican’s Christian beliefs but I don’t try to pre-judge and insult them. And more importantly, I respect them, because there are a lot of religious people who do support us. In fact, a lot of religious people ARE US.”
THAT is the PROBLEM. Religion is the ONLY thing that makes gay WRONG. Study history. That is an indisputable truth. As difficult as it is, gay people need to wake up and understand that religion is what has made us wrong and it is what keeps us down.
@Republican:
“I am 100% gay, 100% Christian, and ashamed of neither.”
Did you choose those things? Were your parents Christian? Or, as an intelligent human being, did you study religion and pick one? Maybe pick one that doesn’t make gay wrong? Oh, wait – you’re a Christian. Somehow you are okay with being part of a club that makes you wrong and has taken the lead in hating you and your friends. How odd.
strumpetwindsock
@Religion_Hurts:
There is a growing number of churches and churchgoers who do support gay equality.
If that’s not your fight, fine. But don’t ridicule those who are working hard to change those churches. Stop being part of the problem and mind your own business.
schlukitz
@strumpetwindsock:
Right off the bat, Republican strolled into the room with a chip on his shoulder and a superior, insulting demeanor that did not invite debate or rational discussion with his comment I love it when atheists act like all believers are stupid, uneducated rednecks. I am a mathematician and which also displayed his own pre-judgement and invited the rebuttal that he got from me.
Frankly, I could care less if a person chooses to worship steaming, smelly hot piles of cow-dung. It’s really none of my business and that is why I am not interested in hearing what the man has to say. His Christian beliefs, like all the Christian beliefs that everyone has tried to shove down my throat since I was old enough to say “Jebus…WTF are you trying to do to me” are going to add absolutely nothing to my life of value or use. So, why should I waste my time listening to religious rhetoric that I’ve heard before, many times over…just like the stale Christopher Hitchenisms you accuse me of spouting, except for much, much longer period of time.
Having been brought up in the Catholic faith, I would describe myself as a recovering Catholic…and not ashamed of it either.
I no longer give a damn what church-going people have to say because to be honest, most of what they do have to say sickens me and I see no reason why I should willingly subject myself to mind-control and give authority to the Church to run my life.
If there is a God, and I was, indeed, given free choice, then I am happy in exercising the ability to choose. What’s the point of having free choice, if you are only going to be condemned to hell for choosing?
Republican is fee to express his views as are you. I would fight to the death to protect his and your right to do so. I would hope that Republican and you would also respect my right to express my views without the gag of censorship being imposed upon me.
schlukitz
@strumpetwindsock:
You said to Religion_Hurts, Stop being part of the problem and mind your own business
And you sermonized me by saying Instead of spouting stale old Christopher Hitchenisms at him why not just listen to what the man is saying ?
I’m a little confused. Would you care to define the word “hypocricy” for me, please?
strumpetwindsock
@schlukitz:
I don’t agree with him, but I think he is right about the ridicule that religious people get in here. I didn’t take his tone as superior or insulting at all – he was simply pointing out a person can be a mathematician and still have a belief in God.
Hell, I’ve been accused of being a religious fundamentalist myself just because I think we should be tolerant of others’ belief. And I’m not even a Christian.
I think you say it well in the first part of your last paragraph. I respect that you have had a terrible experience with churches. But it’s important to understand that not everyone shares that experience, and that some of those believers are on our side.
TANK
I would fight to the death to protect his and your right to do so.
I wouldn’t.
TANK
Well, it’s not true that religious people are all stupid rednecks. I never stated that. Some religious people are quite smart…and smart people tend to believe very strange things for some reason. Highly irrational things… But most religious people aren’t pascal or descartes or kurt godel. Far, far from it.
TANK
I mean, if the argument is that because some smart people were and are religious, then it becomes more likely that religion is somehow true applies to Gottlob Frege, too. Gottlob Frege was the most significant logician since Aristotle and a raging antisemite and racist. I suppose now that racist and antisemitic beliefs are more likely true because Frege was a racist antisemite….LOL! Oh, and they can’t be harmful!
strumpetwindsock
@schlukitz:
I told Religion Hurts to not ridicule someone just because he disagrees with him.
If you don’t see the world the same way he does, tell him how you feel if you want, but that freedom to speak should be tempered at the point where you start ridiculing people for their values.
TANK
some values deserve to be ridiculed and stigmatized. A belief that there’s a pasta monster invisible and flying around is one of them. A belief that homosexuals are immoral because pasta monster decreed it is another.
headache
why must we always submit to an idea that generations -must- stick together…I believe each generation decided what their mark should be. fuck all that we are one bullshit…it never works…
headache
yeah , i know what i said was not kind. so what
schlukitz
@TANK:
Tank, I am not fearful of anyone telling me exactly how they feel about me to my face. I have no gnawing hunger to be loved by every single human being on the planet, and for that reason alone, I would fight for some one’s right to speak their mind, just as I wish to be allowed to speak mine. It’s what our founding forefathers wished for us and the reason why Freedom of Speech was written our founding documents.
Unfortunately, there are not a lot of Christers who would never be willing to fight to the death for my right to exercise free speech. They hurl the hateful commentaries and epithets but their feelings get all bruised and bent out of shape when we try to protect ourselves or fight back. And they are the ones who add insult to injury by calling us cry-babies?
Where I cease being a fierce proponent for free speech, however, is when these people who think that they are exercising their freedom of speech rights by working behind my back to rob me of my civil-rights and my right to free speech by accusing me of “bashing the church” when I do exercise that right.
If one is going to come out of their corner of the ring swinging, they they need to expect that their opponent WILL swing back.
Those are the rules of the game.
If the enemy cannot or will not abide by those rules, then they should be disqualified, not rewarded by governmental protection and tax breaks.
Religion_Hurts
@strumpetwindsock: “There is a growing number of churches and churchgoers who do support gay equality… If that’s not your fight, fine. But don’t ridicule those who are working hard to change those churches. Stop being part of the problem and mind your own business.”
Religion makes gay wrong. That is MY business. Please provide me the names of these “churches who do support gay equality.” Provide me their formal statement that they proclaim gay is not wrong and not a sin or an abomination. Which churches.
When gays wake up and realize what has caused ALL their suffering we will redirect our attention and resources to right THAT wrong. You know, the only thing that makes gay wrong – religion.
schlukitz
@strumpetwindsock:
their values ???
Pray tell, what is so great about the “values” of Christers who regularly come on this site to read other gays to filth because they do not believe in God or organized religion? And why must we be respectful of people who make it very clear that they do not have one iota of respect for us or our values?
Back to the boxing-ring analogy.
If the Christers do not wish to be ridiculed for their values, they I submit that they would do well to stop ridiculing LGBT people for their values, as in the horrendous DoJ DOMA brief comparing our relationships to incest and pedophilia, so I am not just targeting Republican’s comments.
What part of “People who live in glass houses should not throw stones” do these people not understand?
I didn’t take his tone as superior or insulting at all
Okay…fine. If you didn’t take his tone as superior or insulting at all, I can live with that. Your take on Republican’s comment does not mean, however, that I must accept it as gospel truth, nor should you expect me to take it as such. It was after all, merely YOUR perception, not mine.
And that having been said, perhaps it is time for Republican to step up to the plate and clarify his comment so that we are not obiged to jerk ourselves arguing over what he did mean?
After all, none of are qualified to be mind readers. :o)
strumpetwindsock
@schlukitz:
Fair logic, but it leaves out the fact that all religions are not the same, and all religious people do not hold the same values. Who you are after is homophobes, not Christians.
@schlukitz:
Again, there is a difference between reasonable religious people, many of whom are gay, and those Christer wingnuts whom I challenge just as you do.
@Religion_Hurts:
I believe you have a United Church down there with blesses same sex marriages, as do the Unitarians. There are also large schisms in the Anglican, Lutheran and Presbyterian churches. None have pushed it over the top, but it is only a matter of time.
Here in Canada, our largest protestant denomination – the United Church – performs same-sex marriages and has gay clergy.
More importantly, the laity is increasingly supportive of gay rights, even in hard-line churches like the catholics and the mormons.
So again, if it’s not your fight. Fine. But don’t fuck with the people who are trying to reform churches. There are a lot of religious gay people and they have just as much right to be here and be respected as we do.
TANK
Who you are after is homophobes, not Christians.
No, it’s christian homophobes who feel justified in their bigotry BECAUSE of their faith. It might trouble you to learn that many christians justify their homophobia with christianity…actual quotations from the bible, even!
TANK
Yes, because a fraction of christians are actually gay friendly, CHRISTIANITY is therefore gay friendly. You know, not every nazi was antisemitic. Therefore, NO NAZI was antisemitic. You’re an idiot.
TANK
I saw fuck with people who are trying to reform their c hurches. They accomplish nothing with their moderate voices. It is not them who is changing the views of their churches–no way, no how. It is, instead, public pressure and years of lgbt visibility and mainstreaming which has absolutely nothing to do with their faith.
TANK
WHen you behave like a christian apologist, strumpet, who defends christofasciast bigotry with a child’s understanding, you should be treated like a child.
TANK
further, it’s certainly not “Insane” that you were called a christian given your passionate apologetics for christian bigotry.
TANK
ANd I’m tired of the lies. THe majority of christians in this country are antigay bigots. Stop lying. It kills.
Some Religion Heals
@Religion_Hurts: I’ve already listed several churches that support gay equality: the Unitarian Universalists, the Liberal Catholic Church, the United Church of Christ, the Quakers, Unity Church, Metropolitan Community Church, and Metropolitan Christian Church. I also listed Soulforce, although that isn’t a church. Anyone who wants to see their formal statements will have to do some legwork.
Again, the majority of Christians in the US believe that society should accept homosexuality, according to two-month-old study. Another poster tried to dispute this using polls from two and four years ago, but none of the polls he cited actually addressed the issue.
One statistic he cited could be easily misread: “Only 28% of Americans believe that gays or lesbians should NOT be hired as elementary school teachers.” So unless he mistyped, a majority thought we should be teachers. I recall a poll with that result: most Americans thought we shouldn’t be discriminated against, even as elementary school teachers.
Since a large majority of Americans support gay equality, and only about 14% of Americans are unaffiliated, nearly all of our support must be coming from religiously affiliated people. We can’t be getting 60%, 70% and 80% support out of 14% of the population. The percentage of atheists in America is even smaller at 4%.
Your prejudice seems to obsess you. I hope that, someday, you find peace.
TANK
28% of americans is nothing. Look, you’re used to being treated like someone with a disease. You expect it. 28% of americans is a lot of them; and trust that the vast majority of those are CHRISTIAN and justify it with their CHRISTIAN values.
You have blood on your hands when you suggest that the majority of christians in this country are gay f riendly. You give them a reasonable face and a cover. Your apologism is highly unethical. You are scum of a different species.
TANK
The liberal catholics church..LMAO! You are scum. I hope all that you are perpetuating (vicious homophobia that warps the minds of children beyond recognition) is visited upon you tenfold. I hope you are victimized by that which you perpetuate.
TANK
Again, the majority of Christians in the US believe that society should accept homosexuality, according to two-month-old study
This is an evil lie. It’s evil because it’s false and excuses christianity for perpetuating our shared oppression. This person is vile. And no, once again, I refuted with gallup polling data that the majority of christians do not believe that society should accept homosexuality. And moreso, this vile scum has suggested that a half percentage above fifty per cent would constitute full on acceptance by christians in this country…that’s what this pig is talking about. When half of the united states population believes homosexuality is immoral, it is a statistical impossibility to suggest that the majority of christians think gays hsould be accepted by society given the amount of christians in this country.
I have no use for self loathing homosexuals who attend church and defend their faith above their kind.
Some Religion Heals
@TANK: “The liberal catholics church..LMAO! You are scum. I hope all that you are perpetuating (vicious homophobia that warps the minds of children beyond recognition) is visited upon you tenfold. I hope you are victimized by that which you perpetuate.”
I hope you find peace.
TANK
And the polling data from gallup (and I’ll trust gallup’s polling data over the study you’ve mentioned–more reliable and the close time period invalidates your data) is dated june of 2008.
TANK
@Some Religion Heals:
I hope with perspective and education, you realize what you’re doing.
galefan2004
@Religion_Hurts: The problem is, like I keep trying to tell you, religion itself is NOT what has caused the condemnation of gays for the last 2000 years. Man has decided to condemn gays and use religion as an excuse.
TANK
@TANK: The numbers simply do not bear out your claim that most christians think homosexuality is immoral. In fact, one large survey specifically asked if the respondent believed society should accept homosexuality. Christians were more likely than not to say it should. This grew to majorities approaching 60% for Roman Catholics and mainline Protestants.
Do you have a source? You haven’t provided, you’ve repeated this falsehood I refuted by citing gallup polling data. THe only source you mentioned was from a lone study conducted some guy named David Kinnaman,
http://www.unchristian.com/authors.asp
who is the president of the “barna group”, which apparently provide research for people to make spiritual tranisitions in their lives…it’s a christian group… WEll, at least you were citing james dobson to support your lies.
TANK
and this religious christian david kinnaman’s study you cite predates gallup polling data by a year.
galefan2004
@schlukitz: Why oh why do you have to give her what she wants. You notice that she goes away from threads where she isn’t responded to? she is here to bait us, and every second you waste responding to her just encourages her. If its fun for you to respond to her then its cool, but seriously, its easier if you just ignore her.
Some Religion Heals
I’m struck by how troubled Tank and Religion_Hurts seem to be, and how they visit their pain on other posters, perpetuating it. There are medicines and treatments that can ease the anger. There are lots and lots of options, if you’ll take a first step and look into them. Posting on sites like this probably only fuels the upset.
TANK
@Some Religion Heals:
I’d just like you to name your sources for your claims that contradict gallup polling data. I think your religious apologism is harmful, because christianity is predominantly a very homophobic religion, and has been for centuries. And yeah, I do get angry at unethical people like you and the disgraceful behaviors you engage in. You’re unable to argue, it would seem…or be honest.
galefan2004
@Republican: You forgot about 100% Republican. Dude you are a walking conundrum. I tried to walk the line of 100% Christian 100% gay and something had to give and the gay part is certainly not going anywhere. If you can be a walking conundrum and just overlook everything thrown your way then more power to you.
galefan2004
@Religion_Hurts: Dude is a repug as well. I think its obvious he likes being parts of clubs that hate him. That is his thing.
Some Religion Heals
@TANK: If I recall correctly, the study released a couple of months ago was from the Pew Center and resulted in many volumes of data. As far as I know, none of its findings contradict any of Gallup’s results, which also show growing acceptance of gay people and issues. Kinnaman is a conservative, christian researcher who would probably keel over if he knew anyone was using his results to promote LGBT equality, as I do.
I’m being honest, and I don’t think I’m engaging in anything that can reasonably be called disgraceful. I’m not greatly inclined to argue because, again, I’m struck by how troubled the two of you seem to be.
I’m gonna get some things done around the house, so feel free to have the last word if you would like.
schlukitz
@TANK:
Tank, religious apologists are just like folks on crack.
They are both addicted and will fight tooth and nail to maintain their addiction.
What else do they have to replace it with?
TANK
@Some Religion Heals:
Funny, i don’t recall that sifting through pew archives on the matter. Do you mind linking to it where it EXPLICITLY STATES that the majority of christian identified people in the united states think that lgbt people should be accepted by society? A link would suffice. Not just one or two denomination, but all of them.
TANK
SO kinnaman’s a christian bigot? I don’t think his research is very credible, sorry. And no, you’re not using his research to promote lgbt equality. You’re using his “research” (and I don’t even know if you’re doing that) to defend christianity from the charge that it’s homophobic. Big difference.
galefan2004
@Some Religion Heals: Please stop championing the United Church of Christ. I talked to the pastor of our local church and his exact words were that gays are people to but they need to reform to god’s word. Basically, he said its ok to be gay but don’t act on it. Just because the national church body is more accepting doesn’t really mean crap.
TANK
Well, I still think you’re kind of a liar…so the accusation that other people are troubled when you are defending christianity against claims of homophobia strikes me as being pathological, actually.
TANK
@schlukitz:
It’s really tedious to fend off crazy people, but given the stakes (bigotry and gay bashing and sexism…basically, beliefs that promote unnecessary suffering)…they need to be cornered and confronted wherever and whenever they appear. Unfortunately, it’s an exhausting chore exposing them for the frauds that they are because the vast majority of people in my country (the united states) are christian…they’re crazy like these individuals are, but they’re christian.
TANK
They’re NOT crazy like these individuals are. Most “christian identified” gay people are certifiable…not all, of course…but most of them.
Religion_Hurts
@strumpetwindsock: “But don’t fuck with the people who are trying to reform churches. There are a lot of religious gay people and they have just as much right to be here and be respected as we do.”
Before religion gay was okay. After religion gay was wrong. Why do you want to preserve religion?
Because of religion people fly airplanes into buildings and kill thousands of innocent people. Why do you want to preserve religion?
Gay teenagers kill themselves because of religion making gay wrong. Why do you want to preserve religion?
Most of the genocide and wars in human history have a religious dispute at their core. Why do you want to preserve religion?
Most people inherit their religion BEFORE they can think. They don’t have the freedom to learn, explore possibility and then choose their religion. Why do you want to preserve religion?
The main objective of religion is for followers to simply believe and to give up thought. Why do you want to preserve religion?
At this point in the evolution of mankind and our increased capacity to learn and grow and understand it’s very clear that if religion didn’t exist, we wouldn’t invent in. We’re way to smart, thoughtful and considerate now.
Religion_Hurts – make it stop.
schlukitz
@galefan2004:
I assume you are referring to NutyBarb. Who else, right? LOL
Of course, you are right. Ignoring the likes of her is always the best course of action, or non-action, if you will, for basket cases like her.
The trouble is, she’s makes such a great target of herself that is just soooooo hard to resist. HeeHee
I will try to make an effort to rein myself in, however, if for no other reason, to give everyone else on these threads a rest from the back and forth muck-raking and shit-slinging. ;o)
As an aside, however, what I would give for a dart board with a picture of her fugly face smack dab in the center of it.
galefan2004
@Religion_Hurts: The truth is that you can’t make the statement that before religion gay was ok because religion in some form or another is as old as history itself. The truth is that some groups didn’t use religion as a basis for their homophobia, but these societies still had homophobes. The truth is that the United States has always been dominated by the Christian religion, so you can’t claim that there was a before religion time in this country. The fact remains that even non-religious people still have problems with homosexuality. Religion is just one of the excuses that some people use to justify their hatred.
galefan2004
@schlukitz: I agree she makes an appealing target. However, if I, the queen of blog fighting, can resist her I have a feeling that you can too.
Religion_Hurts
@galefan2004: “The problem is, like I keep trying to tell you, religion itself is NOT what has caused the condemnation of gays for the last 2000 years. Man has decided to condemn gays and use religion as an excuse.”
I think you have it backwards. Perhaps you can tell me why “man decided to condemn gays?” How did man get this idea? Where exactly did this idea to condemn gays come from? Snake in the tree of knowledge? Big boat full of millions animals? Burning bush?
Gay wasn’t wrong before religion. Now it is. Please explain.
galefan2004
@Religion_Hurts: I disagree. I think that we would create religion. You have no valid arguments against religion that cover why it even exists in the first place. Lets look at it logically, a lot of very smart people are also very religious. Hell, even Darwin (who coined evolution) was a very religious man and the original “gawd is in the mix” type of guy. Religion brings people together an is a uniting force. Sometimes that force is used for evil (even some of the greatest evils in all of written history) and sometimes it is used for good (like it or not a lot of charity has been funneled through religion). In the end though religion is still only a tool to bring people together and to explain the mysteries that science has still been unable to touch (like life after death).
schlukitz
@galefan2004:
Toucé!
LMAO.
schlukitz
ooops…that should have ben Touché. lol
galefan2004
@Religion_Hurts: This is where your argument shoots itself in the foot. You see, you can’t say that man didn’t have those ideas originally and that they wrote the bible. Make no doubt about it, man wrote the bible, and it is man that put those homophobic ideas into the bible. Man uses religion to justify his own homosexuality. Why man is innately homophobic is something I don’t have the answer for. My guess would be that it is partially fear. Many non-religious straight men don’t like the idea of other men doing it with each other or *gasp* checking them out. Guys that are straight simply don’t like being cruised by guys that are gay, and that has nothing to do with religion.
schlukitz
@Some Religion Heals:
The drug addict, hooked on the opium of religion, telling the hospital staff that it they who need to take their meds and avail themselves of treatment.
I love it.
galefan2004
@galefan2004: God, I must be getting tired when I start making typos like homosexuality when I mean homophobia.
TANK
@galefan2004:
Oh my god. Are you galefan? Darwin was an atheist, my friend. You need to do some research before you introduce these falsehoods. Goodness…
Yes, very smart people were religious; this doesn’t argue for its trut though as very smart people were racist and antisemitic and sexist, too.
As to whether or not homophobia is distinct from religion, it is. However, many religions are not distinct from homophobia. Venn diagram it in your mind’s eye. And further, ethics predates religion as chimpanzees engage in what can be considered “ethical evaluation” and behavior. I don’t know if homophobia predated religion as homosexual is a term invented in the 19th century, and was later coopted by the church (catholic church and other denominations) for condemnation.
And even if I were to entertain the truth of religion being an excuse for homophobia, well, an excuse is only as good as that which it is excusing…and in this case, naked bigotry–that’s not saying much for religion.
galefan2004
@schlukitz: Honestly, I feel sorry for most people that espouse religion because that is all they know. For me, I could never be religious because I think to much about to many things to actually ever rely on blind faith. If I have a question I want an answer, and religion is designed to just keep you asking questions with no answers, and that annoys the hell out of me, so religion is out for me.
galefan2004
@TANK: Ok, Darwin was religious for a vast majority of his life before he went atheist. I misspoke. So, Mr. Darwin saw the light. I was just always taught that the original theory of Darwinism (which later became evolution) included gawd in the mix.
I didn’t try to validate religion by saying that very smart people are religious. That wasn’t my intent anyways. My intent was to pose the question that if man doesn’t need religion then how come some of our most intelligent minds still cling to it. I don’t really accept the excuse that they were raised that way either because I was definitely raised religious, and I used my brain to contradict my “faith”.
My point is simply that religion in and of itself is neither good or bad. Man invented religion and man uses religion however he chooses. When man was writing the bible and inventing the christian religion he wouldn’t have made it homophobic if man himself was not already homophobic. I by no means attempt to justify religion. I simply state that the blame rest on the homophobic ass not the religion the homophobic ass follows. If the homophobic ass didn’t accept homophobia he wouldn’t accept his religion either is my thought. However, maybe I just expect to much when I rationalize that most people can think and judge for themselves.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
While he did say that he did not believe in the divinity of Christ, Darwin did say that he was agnostic, and was not an atheist in the sense that he denied the possibility that there was a god. He also said that he felt that belief in evolution did not conflict wiht religious faith.
more ale in my tea AKA morality (fkd up & disgusting)
Tank, shut the fuck up you tina crackhead wit your ramblings that only do your sweaty lil ass any good.
‘nite!
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
No, he said agnosticism more accurately captured his position. HOwever, his position changed considerably throughout his entire life on the matter.
“I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created parasitic wasps with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars.”
–Charles Darwin
This certainly means he wasn’t a christian by any sense of the word. He doesn’t seem like someone who thinks it’s impossible to know, either. He seems , rather, an atheist, or someone who does not believe in god or gods–not an agnostic. Most christians are agnostic…that’s why they distinguish between faith and knowledge.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
(sorry it’s from wikipedia)
In 1879 a letter came asking if he believed in God, and if theism and evolution were compatible. He replied that a man “can be an ardent Theist and an evolutionist”, citing Charles Kingsley and Asa Gray as examples, and for himself, he had “never been an Atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God”. He added that “I think that generally (and more and more as I grow older), but not always, that an Agnostic would be a more correct description of my state of mind.”
He died in 1882
schlukitz
@galefan2004:
Hell, even Darwin (who coined evolution) was a very religious man and the original “gawd is in the mix” type of guy
I am not looking to make you wrong, galefan, but a Google search reveals a number of articles that say otherwise. Here is one of them.
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/darwin.html
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
God you’re dumb. You don’t have to deny the existence of god to be an atheist. You can also just not believe in the existence of god, like darwin didn’t…he wasn atheist. And I never said that theism was incompatible with evolution; it just greatly reduces the need for that as an explanation of anything. Though, it definitely refutes fundamentalist christianity.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Gee, good thing we have you around to let us know what all these words really mean. I don’t know what we would do if we only had dictionaries to rely on.
It’s just too bad Darwin’s dead so you can’t set him straight on what he was actually thinking. Poor guy to have been deprived of your presence.
galefan2004
@schlukitz: You can tell me when I’m wrong. I will agree. Tank already pointed out I was confused. I blame my great christian upbringing. 🙂 Oh, and trust me, if this is the only thing I’m wrong on today then I’m doing pretty damn good.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
I think it’s painfully obvious give his statements and what negative or soft atheism is. But according to you, you think atheism’s a religion of chrissakes. So what the fuck do you know?
schlukitz
@galefan2004:
;o)
And I hope you’ll be kind enough to let me know when I’m wrong. As i believe I mentioned elsewhere, I too am a recovering Christer.
You’re doing just fine, buddy.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
You know, you’re right. I suppose that is the difference between a great mind like yours and my own backward thinking.
I read Darwin saying that he was never an atheist, that he did not deny the existence of God and considered himself an agnostic, and I just went by the meaning of the words and assumed that he was an agnostic.
I guess that just shows how narrow my thinking really is; I am so thankful to you for pointing out that he actually meant that he was an atheist (and that most christians are really agnostics… and I am a fundamentalist. I never would have guessed that one).
Thank you thank you thank you.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Now what does this mean?
“I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created parasitic wasps with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars.”
–Charles Darwin
Once again, one doesn’t need to DENY the existence of god, and thus not believe that god exists to NOT believe that god exists–and these people are atheists–someone who does not believe in god or gods. And the reason seems to be the problem of evil.
NOw agnosticism is a knowledge claim. Do you know what a knowledge claim means? It concerns what can and cannot be known.
TANK
Most christians are agnostics–they don’t believe that one can know whether or not god exists, yet have faith that god exists for no good reason at all.
Religion_Hurts
@galefan2004: “For me, I could never be religious because I think to much about to many things to actually ever rely on blind faith.”
For the sake of Mankind’s survival, wouldn’t you prefer that individuals gave up “blind faith” and simply learned? Religion has been inherited for centuries – not studied and chosen, but inherited.
There is no “way it is,” but there may be “the way we want it.” I happen to want a world without ignorance and hatred. History confirms they are partners. Ignorance is the enemy.
Blind faith IS ignorance.
galefan2004
@schlukitz: I’m not recovering. I’m full blown atheist. You should see some of the discussions I get in with truly religious folks. Its funny. My brother is much more atheist than I am though and loves to tear down religion at every chance. I still respect people’s right to worship as long as they respect my right to life, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness. When they stop respecting my rights I stop respecting theirs.
galefan2004
@TANK: Hate to break it to you bro, but that quote says nothing about him not believing in god. That quote simply says that he doesn’t believe in creation. If you want to find out his beliefs on god try looking for a quote from his autobiography where he discusses he left the christian faith because he simply didn’t believe that the bible was infallible. And, to borrow from Stephen Colbert, of course we know the bible is infallible because it says it is infallible.
galefan2004
@Religion_Hurts: But this is where you and I disagree. Anyone that desires to leave their blind faith does. That means those that don’t do not desire to for many different reasons. If someone stops believing that being gay is wrong they accept it regardless of their religion, and they stop believing that is wrong because they can’t come to believe that their gay friend is simply wrong. What I would like is a tolerance of religion by people willing to befriend religious bigots and help them come to terms with their bigotry. I know that religion has been responsible for many of the atrocities in the world, but we can’t respond to that by trying to commit atrocities against religion itself. Instead we need to respond to that by helping people get out of religion on their own (or adjusting their religion to their personal style). I have more respect for people that tailor their religion around themselves (as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone else) than I do for someone that simply inherited their religion.
galefan2004
@Religion_Hurts: You are wrong about there being no ignorance and hatred without religion. If you think you are right then explain Napoleon, the Roman Empire, Genghis Khan, the vikings, and of course the Holocaust. All of those vile things were driven by man not religion. As I said before, religion is an excuse man uses to justify his own actions. Much like we are in Iraq right now to help those people not get oil, the crusades and everything else “directly” related to religion were really about anything but. The crusades happened because the church at the time was filled with greedy bastards that wanted treasures from the holy land. Hell, the church at that time had religious whores and sold sin certificates as well. The church has been corrupt through out its entirety, but religion itself is not to blame.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
I presume he meant that natural selection took its own path whether he thought the universe was created or not. Obviously he knew that all life forms did not exist from the presumed moment of creation – something most christians at that time believed.
I don’t know; obviously I was so stupid that I was sucked in by the part where he said he was never an atheist and assumed that he meant he was never an atheist.
Now that you are informing us that most christians are agnostics have you booked a spot at the next synods and the Mormon General Conference to let them all know too?
Though if they are it’s funny that you haven’t been bitching about agnostics all this time.
Were you too busy getting your job applications in to Websters and the OED so you can set us straight on all the other words that don’t actually mean what we all think they do?
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
You had better straighten out those boys at Websters.
They actually called atheism a DOCTRINE!
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/sn-definitions.html
And these idiots call it a BELIEF!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism
I guess you can’t call it blasphemy since atheism isn’t anything at all but you’d better get on it!
galefan2004
@strumpetwindsock: Dictionaries use screwed up definitions. There are some atheist that consider their atheistic views as a doctrine/belief that god does not exist, but there are others that simply don’t believe that god exists but won’t go so far as to believe he doesn’t exist.
strumpetwindsock
@galefan2004:
Yes I know… obviously they’re screwed up.
Help us TANK, help us!
schlukitz
@galefan2004:
Well, Gale, in all honesty, I guess I should really say that I am an atheist too, since I have given up the silly notion that there is an invisible sky-daddy watching over all of us and grading us on everything we do. I don’t know that I ever really did believe it, truth be known.
Nor, do I believe that Jesus Christ ever existed, especially since every major religions casts a character like him in their play as well. Most of the tenets of Catholicism, can be found in any of the earlier, pagan religions of the world and which Christianity seems to be based on. In fact, the similarities of most religions is awesomely striking. You might find this link of interest.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa1.htm
While I have no appreciation for religion, I find the last two sentences in your post to be reasonable and admirable. Like you, I have always tried to live my with the policy of “You don’t fuck with me and I won’t fuck with you.
Peace, bro.
schlukitz
Correction: “the similarities of most religions are awesomely striking.”
Religion_Hurts
@galefan2004: “I have more respect for people that tailor their religion around themselves (as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone else) than I do for someone that simply inherited their religion.”
THIS is the part that you NEED to come to terms with – MOST people “inherited” their religion. It was done when they were very young – BEFORE they could THINK. THIS is the problem.
I will not argue the merits of religion because I have never heard any except the occasional “helping the poor.” It has done far more damage then it has done good.
When young minds are corrupted with religion they STOP THINKING. What (even in God’s name – if you must) IS WORSE THAN THAT?
My brother and I both inherited christian beliefs and bigotry before we were 5 years old. I actually was afraid of Hell, hopeful about Heaven and I hated black people. ALL, before I was 5 years old. By the time I was 12 years old I rejected the hatred of blacks. It was harder to erase the christian hatred.
IF (<very, very, big IF) everyone that has faith in a religion actually studied, considered and then CHOSE their religion, this would be an entirely different conversation. Most studies suggest that 90-95% of people of faith DID NOT CHOOSE their religion. THAT is the problem.
If so many people believe something they didn’t choose to believe and that set of beliefs includes making gay wrong and the associated hatred of gays, how could I not try to correct that obvious injustice?
The reality for me (and i think TANK and others that have commented here) is that most people who actually think about what I have just stated would acknowledge they didn’t choose their religion and the associated beliefs. That would be honesty and the beginning of opening their minds. If they choose not to explore possibility and create their own “chosen” beliefs, I can only conclude they are LAZY. It takes a lot more effort to think, than to keep this blind faith of religion.
To end gay hatred and discrimination, caused primarily by religion, people need to wake up and use their minds. So, religion is the disease and LAZY is the enemy.
It takes effort to think. Some will, many won’t. Religion isn’t for thinking people – it’s for sheep.
Religion_Hurts
Sorry to all the sheep in the world. Please accept my apologies. That isn’t a fair comparison, sheep usually have a good shepherd. Religions do not offer this.
galefan2004
@schlukitz: While I do find that list of interest, this isn’t a new topic for me. I’ve seen pretty much every parallel between the earlier pagan religions and christianity before.
galefan2004
@Religion_Hurts: I was christened in the Episcopal church as an infant. Then I was raised in a non-denominational church as a kid. When my entire family was falling apart the only emphasis was on the kids going to church every Sunday. I have already came to terms with the fact that MOST people inherit their religion. That is the whole basis of my statement about respecting those that chose religion more than those that inherited it.
When young minds are corrupted with religion they stop thinking? Please don’t even come here with that shit. Seriously. That fails to explain why people decide to chose their own beliefs over that of their religion. It fails to explain why when more people decide to go to school they decide to use that knowledge instead of their religion. Maybe its true that 25% of this country can’t think when they are corrupted with religion, but I’m glad I’ve never met anyone in that 25%.
Also, some sheep in the religious community do have good shepherds and some don’t. Rather you want to believe it or not, there actually are good pastors out there. Pastors that emphasize love thy neighbor over judge thy homo do exist. Also, how dare you compare christians to sheep. That is what they compare themselves to. Compare them to swine or goats or anything else, but don’t compare them to sheep (that plays right into their hands).