SOUNDBITES — “While Davis may have been politically misguided to open up about such a controversial topic, he said nothing that — in context — spewed hatred toward anyone, least of all gays. There was nothing in his interview that suggested anything more than a deep faith, and a hope as a devoted Christian that someone unlike him might change. It would be an unfair stretch, even by Davis’ political rivals, to suggest this was hate speech. While a reasonable person might view with raised eyebrows the quoted statements by an elected official, when put in context they show anything but hate. Even put in context, gays will certainly continue to disagree with Davis that they are sinners who won’t go to heaven, or that they are choosing a lifestyle. That, however, does not excuse the fact that Davis has shown nothing in his tenure as mayor, or life, to suggest he is a divisive officeholder. Quite the contrary. Anyone who’s ever engaged in a religious discussion learns quickly that there are no easy answers, and plenty of disagreements. With this episode, we’ve been reminded of that.” —The Vallejo Times Herald in an editorial, defending the town’s Mayor Osby Davis after his anti-gay comments drew heated protests
Vallejo Times Herald
Jerry Priori
Right, because religion provides a cover for bigotry. Once again, a bigot is given a pass because of his deeply held faith. If he expressed the same animosity for secular reasons, he’d have everyone screaming. But because his comments are religious, we’re supposed to look the other way. He’s still a bigot, religion is not an excuse. Religious people love to exempt themselves from ordinary civil discourse, but I don’t buy that and will continue to say so. If it is not acceptable for me to call him a nigger, it is unacceptable for him to call me a sinner. No more double standards because some people have imaginary friends.
naghanenu
Jerry,
You are very wrong. I am a devoted Catholic, very devoted catholic. However, i became an advocate for gay rights when my dear brother came out to me. My dad rejected him and still does. It hurts me because i love them both with all my heart. I hurt my brother so much and for the plight of gays in this world. Religion has made you moving targets on so many things. I am truly sorry about that. I hope you believe me on this.
However, i do not and cannot call someone who believes that gays are immoral by the basis of his faith a bigot. I am sorry but i cant. It is the teaching of so many religious groups. I try to ask myself why it is so but well i cant answer that.Only God can. I leave that to God. Many people are convicted by their faith and well it is just a reality gays have to get used to cos its not going anywhere.
RomanHans
Whatever motivates someone to be a bigot doesn’t change the fact that they’re a bigot. You can simply claim that their bigotry is justified.
As for this politician idiot, I fail to see how calling someone a sinner isn’t “spewing hatred.”
As comment #1 says, religion gives people — and newspapers — a free pass to spew all sorts of crap.
Jerry Priori
@No. 2 · naghanenu:
You cannot, but I can and I do. Religion is not an excuse. He’s a bigot. I don’t care if his reason is faith related. Just as I may have to get used to bigots hiding behind their faith as if it excuses their bigotry, the religious people who use faith to justify themselves have to get used to the fact that I, and others like me, will point fingers and call them bigots. I’m not impressed that he has a deeply held faith.
I’m sure you mean well, but the time for the religious to carve out exemptions for themselves is over. Bigotry is bigotry, whether the reasons are secular or sectarian. What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Quintlexia
“Many people are convicted by their faith and well it is just a reality gays have to get used to cos its not going anywhere.”
On the other hand, gay people aren’t going anywhere, either.
More importantly, gayness itself isn’t going anywhere, because it is just another aspect of being human, and is present in everyone to one degree or another.
Meanwhile, the Bible lays down a lot of different rules. Where are the laws against divorce?
Fantabuloso
By this logic, the Inquisition was not murder, but a manifestation of religious beliefs. What the mayor did was express hate and religion should not be used as an excuse. Everybody knows that those who practice homophobia, is selective in their choice of sins.
Jerry Priori
@No. 6 · Fantabuloso:
Nor can we condemn slave owners. After all, they had biblical justification for keeping slaves. The KKK had deeply held religious beliefs, too. If Davis is beyond criticism because of deeply held religious beliefs, then the KKK are also by the same reasoning. However, we never see racism given a pass by mainstream media outlets–even when it has a religious justification. It’s okay to hate gay people and pretend otherwise for religious reasons and many people will just silently nod their heads.
naghanenu
Quintlexia
The bible says
Matthew 5:32
But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. (NIV)
I do not support divorce. My church insists on marriage counselling before you go into marriage. A period of reflection and prayer to really ask yourself whether this is what you want is insisted on. Marriage is not a train ride for the adventurous and dewy eyed in love. It is a real binding legal and spiritual contract. God intended it that way that is why u are to be sound of mind and soul before u even think it.
Many people get married stupidly. They do not understand the implications of their union and just run into it. It always hurts them and their loved ones. I do not believe in divorce but i am also human. I pray God guides me to meet the right woman and live a good life.
Quintlexia
Hi Naghanenu,
Despite my immense hurt and frustration with what took place in California, Maine, and now New York, I have no desire to belittle or attack you. I can tell that you are struggling with this. Be sure to visit http://www.faithinamerica.com. Be well.
Jurlesia
@naghanenu: Thank you for keeping an open mind despite your religious convictions. I just wanted to comment on your belief that those who discriminate based on religious teachings should not be labeled bigots. There are many teachings in the Bible that we no longer put into practice today because doing so would be blatant bigotry or they are based on antiquated relics of biased teachings. For instance, the same book of the Bible that denounces homosexuality (Leviticus) also states that we may take slaves only from foreigners living among us or from neighboring countries (Leviticus 25:44-46), death for committing adultery (Leviticus 20:10), we may only enslave Hewbrews for a period of 6 years (Exodus 21:2-6), that a man may sell his daughter into sexual slavery and is not to be released after 6 years as Hebrew slaves are (Exodus 21:7-11), that slave owners may beat their slaves without repercussions if they do not kill them (Exodus 21:20-21), death for anyone who strikes their parent (Exodus 21:15), that brides must be killed if not virgins on their wedding night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21), etc, etc, etc. I can cite many MANY more versus of the Bible that we do not practice today, and unless you condone all of the above as well there is really no way to justify bigotry with “religious beliefs.”
If you are struggling to reconcile your religious teachings with gay acceptance there is a good movie for you called “For the Bible Tells Me So” and is available from Netflix. I highly suggest you check it out.
RM
The Catholic church officially mandates bigotry against gays and lesbians (as well as subjugation of women). It’s up to individual Catholics whether to go along with their church or not. But if they choose to support their church, they are no more moral than a bigot who perpetrates hatred for non-religious reasons.
1EqualityUSA
Naghanenu, Under the article, “Do Gays have to feel empathy towards conservatives who hate them, you wrote, “As a black woman, let me say again…do not use black people as your ‘card’………
Now you are saying in post #8, ” I pray God guides me to meet the right woman and live a good life.”
Then in another post, “I think gays need to take it easy for a while. This year end marriage battle is getting emotionally exhausting even for a straight man.”
Your writing style changes drastically too. In one post, intelligent and articulate and in another, like a seventh grader.
Are you conflicted, Babe? Issues about your brother or the Catholic Church might be superficial reasons why you hang on gay blog. Am I wrong? No need to answer if it makes you uncomfortable. People come out when they can no longer carry the weight of the secrets,.
“I think that somehow, we learn who we really are and then live with that decision.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
Rainfish
Wow, “naghanenu”, you’re an enabler. According to your “logic”, then the KKK and slave-owning is ok too.
After all, doesn’t your Bronze Age Tribal Book of Terrors also demand the following:
“Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable.”(1 Peter 2:18-21).
“Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with sincerity of heart.” (Colossians 3:22–4:1).
“Let all who are under the yoke as slaves regard their own masters as worthy of all honor so that the name of God and our doctrine may not be spoken against.” (1 Timothy 6:1-2).
Uh huh…
Oh, and don’t forget this gem that demands the mutilation of your spouse (wife only here) if she tries to save your life and her hand touches the “junk” of another man who is trying to kill you:
“If two men fight together, and the wife of one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of the one attacking him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall not pity her.”
Deuteronomy 25:11-12
But I guess if anyone still believes in the garbage cited above then that is just Old Testament stuff to be ignored (except for the fact that Slavery is still justified in the New Testament).
And yet, homosexuality is brought up far, far less in this silly book than slavery; as well as killing children who are disobedient; genocide and murdering women, etc. So why let the savages off the hook for all of those things, but still believe that their mistreatment of gays is just peachy and perfectly understandable in the context of a modern society?
Nothing is more “sinful” than a hater of innocents. The Bible is worthless trash perpetuating the vilest kinds of hatred and inhumanity against one’s fellow man. The few hackneyed “words of wisdom” are repetitions of similar sentiments expressed in an archetypical fashion throughout most cultures around the globe. Nothing new or original is in The Bible. Even the story of creation was stolen by the Hebrews from the Sumerians, as well as many stories from the Ancient Egyptians – far older cultures at the time.
http://www.halexandria.org/dward181.htm
The Christ myth has its counterpart too in Osiris…Mithras, etc.
In ancient Greece, the titan, or proto-god, Prometheus was “crucified” for saving mankind by having his immortal liver ripped out daily by an eagle (it would grow back by dinner time the next day) while he was chained to a cliff-side as punishment by Zeus for giving “salvation” to mankind through the gift of fire.
Likewise, practically every culture had its own version of the Ten Commandments. So nothing new, unique, or special about that. Furthermore, many other primitive religions had their uniquely oppressive taboos and shibboleths as well. Stupidity infects all of mankind equally across time and all continents.
Fortunately, most of modern civilization has evolved beyond that silliness and the danger of those early religions. Now, it is time for all Abrahamic religions to become extinct as well, and to be relegated into the dust bin of myth where it belongs. The future of humanity depends on it happening sooner rather than later.
As your own book of fairytales clearly states: “…it’s time to put away childish things.”
…How sad that you still cannot see the immorality in those who use self-styled and self-serving “morality” to persecute others.
How sad indeed.
So, yes, naghanenu, those who believe that gays are immoral on the basis of their faith are vile BIGOTS. And those who sympathize with them are even more so.
By the way, naghanenu, the Koran justifies the murder of all infidels who do not accept Islam as the one true religion. So, when they come after you…just remember, “it is the teachings of so many…” — as you put it — so it must be “moral” and blameless. Be careful what you make excuses for, it may come back to bite you.
——————-
In response to:
No. 2 • naghanenu who wrote: “However, i do not and cannot call someone who believes that gays are immoral by the basis of his faith a bigot. I am sorry but i cant. It is the teaching of so many religious groups.”
naghanenu
Thank you Quintlexia. I appreciate ur words and will check out the website.
Thank you too Jurlesia. Will check that out and revert.
I am really embarrassed here,1EqualityUSA. I was hoping no one would notice. My girlfriend posted the black woman rant and spiced it up by using some of my history. She’s normally with me when i come here and must have posted when i wasn’t with her. I am a biracial man who is a catholic and has a gay brother…just to set it straight once and for all. However her comments are actually true about how the majority of our black community view the gay fight and its comparison to civil rights movement.
naghanenu
@Rainfish,
U are right. The bible teaches the best way to handle slavery and servants. I believe during the time of the bible, slavery was commonplace. I am not a history major so i dont have facts on slavery during those times. Will have to read it up.
The bible is not a book about God’s warmth and love. It contains violence, sex, rape and all the works. Thats what makes it such a great religious guide. You see people at their worst and best. You see God at His most loving and His most cruel. The absolute duality of the Lord.
A true Christian knows God is not some spiritual teddy bear. He kicks major when He is pissed off. Just look at all the instances in the bible He punishes the Isrealites( his chosen people) for not obeying His word. He made that nation face challenges and trials that were unbelievable and unfathomable then and even now.
Slavery is a reality of that time. It happened and God had something to say about it. It was ok to have slaves to till the land and take care of the home but God put regulations down. If you want a slave, ok cool take care of him and treat him with dignity. Do not travel to his continent, steal him from his land and drag him across the ocean in conditions that would have killed an animal and make him work mercilessly, tirelessly. Then you live him in squalor, make him breed like an animal and seperate his family.Of course, you then rape his wife and daughters
There are so many scriptures on how to treat a slave properly, if you must have one. Now note God never said do not have one but u betta treat him or her well. He knew the human nature, our capability of great evil and that is why He created laws to coordinate our natural tendencies. I really do believe that. I mean come on, we have people then and now that sleep with kids or with their dogs. How sick is that. Human nature is immoral simply put. Its interesting how slave owners in the 17th and 18th and 19th century ignored all the laws on slavery but skipped to the part where slaves must be obedient to the master….
A true Christian knows that the Christ coming and death made it possible to move away from the extreme sacrifices stated in the Abrahamic laws. Instead of stoning your wife to death when she cheats on you why not go to Christ to pray and ask him to intercede for God’s forgiveness on your behalf. I mean that was the point of His coming and ultimate sacrifice. I mean c’mon between stoning ur wife and praying to God which one is better? REALLY??
I have said before that i will not have a religious argument with someone who was not religious. It will be pointless and long for both of us.
naghanenu
One more thing…my Bible is not a fairy tale book. You want respect then do not diss my religion. I am on your side…stop alienating me because we do not agree what constitutes a bigot anf what does not.
Later. Gotta go to church.
1EqualityUSA
Allegory, that’s how I read into some of the fantastic stories the Bible presents. The written Word, in my opinion, is secondary to the spiritual awakening, a subtler guide, a whisper by comparison. Just listen to the words that come out of mouths for an indicator of spiritual maturity. Deeds done without fanfare, witnessed only by God, another indicator. Taking lessons and putting them to work for purposes of edification and joy bears the sweetest fruit. Naghanenu, I hope you have a good Sunday.
David
Jerry
What an interesting post. You wrote: “Bigotry is bigotry,” but proceeded to engage in religious bigotry by making broad accusations against all people of faith.
You and your anti-faith peers here are the religious equivalent of homophobes – bashing other people over something you do not experience and do not care to understand.
Rainfish
@ “Naghanenu”,
First of all, I believe that there are good Christians, Muslims, Wiccans, Believers in Elves, etc. . I have no problem whatsoever with how someone else sips from their cup of delusions; that is, as long as they can be objective about the bad things their beliefs may encourage (or have encouraged in the past) and, at least, fess up to them and try to change those bad practices. Also, I insist that no one attempt to impose those beliefs on me — culturally, legislatively, or socially in any way, manner, or form.
If you believe that the Bible is the word of some “god”, and not a hodge podge collection of fables (even though many of those stories are proven to have been “borrowed” from other cultures) then fine — that is not historically accurate, but fine, believe what you will. I, for one, am not afraid of discovery — of changing my mind. In other words, I’m not afraid of the truth — even if it may contradict long held beliefs of mine or possibly even go against certain well-established societal norms.
I am not an atheist. I believe atheism is just as silly a stand to take as those who have an unquestioning (i.e. uncritical) belief in a deity without proof. Both sides assume they have an inside track on the truth. I’m an agnostic. I remain skeptical until I am presented a convincing argument, and then I still maintain an open mind towards alternate interpretations and theories.
By the way, “Naghanenu”, you’re not on “my side” (or any decent human being’s side, for that matter) if you cannot acknowledge accountability for the unforgivable harm Judeo/Christian/Islamic cults have done to disrupt, ruin, and even completely destroy countless lives in the GLBT community — and continue to do so. If you still refuse to admit that many Abrahamic cults have created dangerous rationalizations for bigotry which have been excused, by Christians (among others), as an excuse for homophobia, slavery, domestic abuse, and genocide. If you cannot admit to the collusion of religion in the oppression, and even in the murder, of so many in minority communities then you are no friend of GLBTs, or humanity, and you are a stranger to the truth.
Lastly, I do not need nor desire your “respect”, and neither does the GLBT community if you continue to insist that in no way does the majority of “Christian” sects have any responsibility for promoting division and inciting hatred towards our GLBT brothers and sisters. Believe what you will; just stay out of our way with your dangerous delusions.
——————
In response to No. 16 • “Naghanenu” who wrote: “One more thing…my Bible is not a fairy tale book. You want respect then do not diss my religion. I am on your side…stop alienating me because we do not agree what constitutes a bigot and what does not.”
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