We used to think Equality California’s Geoff Kors (pictured) and Marc Solomon — who, after listening to well-paid political strategists, decided to wait until 2012 for their own Prop 8 repeal effort — were just going to let the 2010 activists play out their repeal attempt while sitting idly by, hoping for their own shot two years later when 2010ers failed. See, when the Courage Campaign decided to listen to its members and move forward immediately for 2010, Kors was at least trying to mask his ire: “Waiting indefinitely to return to the ballot is not an option, but we must be strategic in selecting the election that gives us the best opportunity to permanently secure the freedom to marry.” His words were very different today — when Love Honor Cherish submitted its 2010 repeal ballot initiative to the attorney general.
EQCA isn’t even pretending it’s amused by the 2010ers. Now they’re angry, and not trying to hide it. Says EQCA exec director Kors: “We helped Love Honor Cherish draft the language they have submitted, by spending hours with them on the phone for discussion and feedback. We didn’t approve the final version, as we aren’t involved in the effort to file this language, but we wanted the language to be as good as possible. Submitted language should always be shown to key stakeholders, and different options should be tested.”
Hear that? He’s pissed that after EQCA helped out LHC, they didn’t even have the courtesy to run their final ballot language by him.
And if Kors statement wasn’t enough, Massachusetts import and EQCA marriage director Solomon had to add: “At Equality California, we are working our hardest to move Californians to support the freedom to marry. We respect those pushing for a 2010 ballot measure and passionately share their end goal. However, for the first time in our history, our side gets to choose when we return to the ballot, rather than having the date set by our opponents. We believe we will be much more ready–and much more likely to prevail–at the ballot in 2012, and we are working tirelessly towards that outcome with our coalition partners.”
Again, the message to LHC and the 2010 repeal supporters: You’re fucking everything up.
(This, from an organization still accused of raising more than $1 million by telling some supporters they were pushing for a 2010 repeal.)
The office of Attorney General Jerry Brown (who’s running for Cali gov, remember) must now approve LHC’s ballot language, which could take up to eight weeks.
But there’s still this possibility: More in-fighting, this time between LHC (led by John Henning, pictured right) and the Courage Campaign (led by Rick Jacobs, pictured left with Dan Choi) over control of the 2010 repeal effort. The Courage Campaign has spend six-figures on research and polling to get the ballot language phrased just right to deliver the most votes for a repeal. Surely, they’re streaming LHC beat ’em to it, since the AG will only accept one ballot measure on the issue.
For what it’s worth, Henning says there won’t be any feuding with CC: “We think it’s great that the Courage Campaign is doing all the research they’re doing. We’re really looking forward to their research helping to guide the community.”
As for the Courage Campaign, strategist Steve Hildebrand submits: “We believe that to wage a winning campaign, there needs to be a strong governing structure, an experienced senior campaign team, the best research to steer the strategy and a sense that the campaign will be funded. We are working on all of those fronts, but because we will not have them in place by the time LHC submits ballot language, we will not be joining them this week.” Uh huh.
Either way, somebody better start collecting those million-plus signatures.
(Photo: Karen Ocamb)
QueerToday
Let’s take a closer look at Love Honor Cherish. Seven rich, mostly white, men decide to lead a 2010 effort. They are lawyers, finance directors, and advertising executives. Yet, somehow they are succeeding in convincing people they are more “grassroots” than the multitude of organizations, experts, and activists that are supporting the 2012 effort – including a vast coalition of organizations serving populations of color. This isn’t about EQCA V. LHC – this is about what is best for our community in the long-run. LHC has ignored the concerns of longtime activists both grassroots and establishment, and is flat out lying about the diversity of the organizations supporting them. Over half of the organizations they list as supporters are actually one or two people with websites – not organizations at all. It’s a shame so many enthusiastic, well-intentioned, newly energized activists will be duped into following their mismanaged lead.
Lloyd Baltazar
I am with SFV Equality directed under Courage Campaign. We are working VERY hard in campaigning to defeat and repeal Prop 8 in 2010. Many young, both Gay, Lesbian and Straight allies are putting SOOO many hours and efforts in canvassing, researching, donating their time, effort and money for this 2010 fight. Please don’t shit on our efforts because some people think they know better and criticize the 2010 campaign without seeing the grassroot efforts that we are doing.
WE ARE DOING OUR BEST to collect the million signatures to fight Prop 8 in 2010. Support is better than animosity and mistrust. Courage campaign is doing an excellent job at rallying the young and the old together to bring back Marriage Equality in California in 2010, as we ALSO help the Maine Gays and Lesbians to maintain Gay Marriage in November.
Those morons who think the 2010 fight is pointless, unnecessary and not worth fighting for can go take the backseat in the bus. People are busting their asses to defeat and Repeal Prop 8 in 2010 and all you do is complain. Shame on these people. DONT SHIT ON OUR EFFORTS.
Wendy
WHY are we fighting about this? Let’s work together so we can get something done!
Lloyd Baltazar
@QueerToday: HOW DARE YOU pass judgments on people and organizations you do not personally know.
LHC has ignored the concerns of longtime activists both grassroots and establishment, and is flat out lying about the diversity of the organizations supporting them.
PURE BULLSHIT. You have NEVER attended an LHC meeting, or a Courage Campaign meeting so do not make false accusations when you have no basis to back up your claims. There are MANY people who attend and support these organizations, both with their time and money and you viciously lie so you can make yourself look good. Shame on you, sweetie. QUIT LYING just so you can criticize the 2010 campaign to repeal Prop 8. You don’t even live in California!
Andrew
It’s not about us or even political strategies – it’s about money.
QueerToday
@Lloyd Baltazar: Lloyd. Everything you just wrote is false.
1. I live in San Francisco. (In case you missed it, that IS in California!) 2. I attended Camp Courage, and I respect many of the people involved in the Courage Campaign – and I respect the way Courage Campaign as been doing this work – for the most part. 3. I attended the leadership summit in Fresno, and I participated in the San Bernadino summit online.
It is LHC I have a problem with. I have watched very closely as they belittle those who disagree with them as “activists” while at the same time trying to portray themselves as “grassroots.” I have read their press releases that belittled the coalition of organizaitons of color (prepare to prevail.) And I have heard with my own ears the historically inaccurate comments John Henning has made about Rosa Parks and others.
I know there are MANY good-intentioned people fighting for 2010 – I share their passion for equality- I just strongly disagree with their strategy, and believe it to be neglecting the concerns of the most oppressed in our community particularly during these hard economic times.
I encourage everyone to look at which side is calling who morons, and lowering the bar of discourse. Both the 2012 and 2010 sides ARE working for equality.
QueerToday
@Lloyd Baltazar: I see your group “directed” by Courage Campaign has endorsed Mayor Newsom on your website – does Courage Campaign allow their groups to endorse candidates under their name? (PS Perhaps you’re not aware that Mr. Newsom hasn’t been on the side of workers or the homeless in SF for some time now. Just as SF Pride at Work.)
erasure25
How can we convince others that this issue is very important to us and that our FUNDAMENTAL rights and our lives are profoundly impacted and at the same time say we are willing to wait 2+ years. It doesn’t make any sense. If its that important we fight for it. Otherwise why bother. Kors and company are too used to leading the way. A good leader also encourages others to lead as well.
Lloyd Baltazar
@QueerToday:
IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO HELP CONTRIBUTE TO THE 2010 CAMPAIGN FIGHT TO REPEAL PROP 8 IN 2010—–THEN DON’T!
You’re not making yourself any better by putting down other organizations and accusing them of having little or no members. BULLSHIT. You don’t know how many people are deeply involved in this cause and have put their time, money and effort to file the ballot initiative for 2010. THE BALLOT WAS FILED TODAY DUE TO THE MANY EFFORTS of Gay, Lesbian and Straight allies who have tirelessly worked for this cause. And all you do is insult, complain and spread lies.
IF YOU DON’T WANT TO HELP THE 2010 CAMPAIGN, THEN GET BACK BEHIND THE BUS. NO ONE WANTS TO HEAR YOU BITCH AND MOAN OVER YOUR LIES AND ANTICS.
QueerToday
@erasure25: Erasure – point well taken. Here’s the thing. I am fighting for it every single day. I am working to build coalitions, working to support lgbt youth and families, and preparing to prevail in 2012 rather than making a strategic mistake by going to the ballot in 2010 – a mistake that could hurt our longterm chances, drain money from already drained organizations (lgbt centers and hiv work is shutting down amid budget cuts, healthcare and enda are huge issues and require immediate attention). In no way do I want to just fall-in-line behind whatever EQCA says, andyone who knows me knows that I challenge maisntream gay righst organizations at every turn, what I do want to do is address the very valid concerns of coalitions like “prepare to prevail,” the many experts who say 2010 is a bad idea (aside from Hildebrand I can’t find any for 2010), and the concerns of those who work on the ground in direct service like HIV work and healthcare. Many of us are not just sitting on our hands – we are working our asses off for true queer liberation, and we feel 2012 is a better strategy.
QueerToday
@Lloyd Baltazar: LLoyd, again, I want to point out who is name-calling, who was wrong about where I lived, who was wrong about what meetings I attended, etc. I hope the Courage Campaign leaders are watching your behavior, and decide to stop supporting your group.
Chitown Kev
“Except for a few minor cliques, homosexuals are in reality almost totally lacking in feelings and solidarity. In fact, it would be difficult to find another class of mankind which has proved so incapable of organizing to secure its basic rights.”
Magnus Hirschfeld-1927
I posted this at another blog, and some of these posts provide ample evidence that this is just as true now as it was way back in the day.
Leo
QT
Kors and company squandered millions of dollars, a year of everyone else’s work, and made so many bad decisions that, cumulatively, their efforts appear to be deliberate sabotage.
Either they are incompetent beyond excuse, or traitors.
If Kors and company are opposed to going to the ballot in 2010, then 2010 must be a winning strategy, for all Kors and company have done so far is lose. Their advice and knowledge, their decisions and choices, cost us same-sex marriage in California, and opened the door to losses elsewhere.
The longer this battle takes, the longer Mr. Kors gets to draw a very handsome salary from other people’s wallets. I bet he’d put off attaining same-sex marriage another 40 years if he could.
Personally, I won’t donate another penny to EQCA as long as Kors and his cronies are there.
Geoff
I think you are missing the meaning of what I said. We spent a lot of time helping out Love Honor Cherish with their language. We want any language that gets submitted to be the best it can be. We aren’t upset with Love Honor Cherish for not asking us for approval. Since we aren’t involved with submitting this language, we wouldn’t expect those who are to ask approval. I was just trying to be clear about the role we had taken.
As Marc said above, we have a lot of respect for the people who are pushing for a 2010 measure. While our approaches might differ, at the end of the day, we are all trying to accomplish the same thing: restoring the freedom to marry for same-sex couples. That’s why we have spent time providing advice on their language and helping as we can.
I hope that we will all focus in the coming months on collaborating where we can and working together to build a strong movement. With Maine and Washington hanging in the balance and so many important issues in front of us here in California, we have to come together to win.
Regards,
Geoff Kors
Chitown Kev
“I have read their press releases that belittled the coalition of organizaitons of color (prepare to prevail.) And I have heard with my own ears the historically inaccurate comments John Henning has made about Rosa Parks and others.”
Can I get some links to this please. I am sure they don’t post all press releases on their website (of course) but I don’t hold it against them that they’re 7 white guys as long as they know what they are doing. I just need more info.
QueerToday
Here is one of the press releases where LHC belittles the prepare to prevail side: http://www.lovehonorcherish.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=461:why-we-cant-wait-until-2012
Jordan Krueger
This is completely and utterly false.
You can submit as many ballot measures as you want to the AG on any particular subject. The AG will review them all and send them back to you. You can then pick whichever one you want to collect signatures for. Any version that you don’t collect signatures for just falls away.
Indeed, LHC’s strategy is to submit language today to ensure the 150 days to collect signatures, and then possibly have Restore Equality 2010 or Courage Campaign submit a new version in late October in the event that Courage Campaign’s extensive testing illuminates some kind of word-change that the voters flock to. In the event that occurs, it means that we’ll have less than 150 days to qualify for the November 2010 ballot, and will have to spend quite a bit to hire signature gathering companies to make up the difference in time.
Chitown Kev
@QueerToday:
I would say that “belittles” is a tad too strong but I will give Marc Solomon at EQCA credit for talking about the elephant in the room: the racist scapegoating of black (and to a smaller extent Latino) voters for the passage of Proposition 8.
That’s why time and trust are needed to build relationships which the Courage Campaign is actually doing, it seems to me.
Those who would work with the black community, for instance, would have to explain why they are there advocating for a cause where black folks (including gay black people) were called “niggers.” That’s going to take time and work to oercome (and everyone in the black community won’t be convinced, either)
[For the record I could argue 2010 v. 2012 either way pretty convincingly. What I really wish is that we could wait until the Maine results came in before a decision is made. Obviously we can’t do that.]
Tracy Greene
I think this article was written just to start a fight. Don’t let it.
We need to work together and NOT be pulled apart.
We are all working towards the same goal EQUAL RIGHTS!
Focus on the WHAT not the WHEN.
Chitown Kev
@Tracy Greene:
LOL!
Queerty is the gay shit-startin’ blog. In a way, it’s part of it’s charm.
RV
Can we all just work together at getting this damn thing overturned. It directly affects all of us in our community. Instead of bickering back and forth, work together. Not divide ourselves when we all want the same thing
Chitown Kev
@RV:
Read post #12, I hooted when I came across the quote.
But you know what? We’ve come a long way in spite of ourselves.
aeblikkon
The contradictions of the 2012 crowd are amazing. When grassroots activists are angry that blacks supposedly spoiled the election, they said that blacks in California did not proportionally make up enough of the electorate to tip the balance, and we still would have lost, yet, they are denying all families rights for two years so they can make inroads into communities hardened over much more than two years?
The campaign will be fought where it will always be fought, as with every political election for every single issue ever. For the hearts of middle class white (incl. Hispanic) people. I’m sorry, this is not a Ghanian political campaign, it’s Californian. Withdraw the troops from the fortified black church, penetrate the white Catholic and Protestant churches that have shown promise in other states.
Michael McKeon
@Queertoday: Straight up FUCK YOU !!!!!!! Who the fuck do you think you are that you can speak for an entire movement, we’re gonna pull this off in 2010, and maybe you shhould join FUCUS ON THE FAMILY OR NOM.
Again,
FUCK YOU!!!!!!
B
The concern I’d have with 2010 is that the effort (including the fund raising) may be enough of a burnout that you’d have to wait until 2014 to try again. Assuming you can win for sure in either 2012 or 2014, if the chances of winning in 2010 are below 50 percent and you won’t be able to try again in 2012 due to burnout and lack of financial resources, then the time it will take, averaged over all outcomes, would be longer for trying in 2010 than in 2012.
So, it really depends on the chances of success for 2010.
Chitown Kev
@B:
That’s why (at least in my mind) Maine is the wild card in all of this.
Sam
None of this matters since there is virtually no chance that enough signatures will be gathered for 2010. That task requires significant resources, including paid signature gatherers. In the past 27 years, no initiative on any issue has qualified for the ballot in CA without the use of paid signature hunters. Yet these people are going to try to do it without using paid people.
It won’t work, but at least we will have the some names for a mailing list as we work toward a 2012 repeal.
Andrew
@Chitown Kev: “”Except for a few minor cliques, homosexuals are in reality almost totally lacking in feelings and solidarity. In fact, it would be difficult to find another class of mankind which has proved so incapable of organizing to secure its basic rights.”
Magnus Hirschfeld-1927
That’s because nobody has ever offered the gay community a “strategy” or solution. It’s been 40 years and $2 billion – with little to show for it.
Perhaps, if somebody came up with a real strategy and plan to actually win our equality, I think we’d all show our feelings and create some solidarity.
WE need a strategy and plan to WIN.
Sam
@ Leo:
I completely agree that EQCA is incompetent and Kors is a moron. He actually went on vacation to Spain in July 2008, just weeks before the election. And he was at the head of the No on 8 effort. Another one of these great “leaders” went on vacation to Alaska for 4 weeks in July 2008. It is almost an unbelievable degree of incompetence.
That having been said, read the EQCA analysis of 2010 v. 2012. It is long, detailed and chock full of hard data. It is a compelling argument for working now and every day through 2012. Even though the source is suspect, the argument is sound.
Josh
@B: I say just wait for the old “religious” Californians to die. The sooner the better. Where’s the “plan” for that?
MoHoTo
The regulars & ranters on this site depress me. They make it more about their mania than the issue at hand. Its almost enough to make me feel sorry for the old fashioned people who work the bells & whistles for us instead of just ranting on web sites. Almost. Were it not for the fact that they hire Acorn-like shill non-profits to yell at us for money as we walk through the gayborhood.
Tracy Greene
@Chitown Kev
Thanks for cluing me in, “Queerty is the gay shit-startin’ blog.”
rudy
Don’t you have any off-year elections in CA – like 2011 or 2013?
Do you really need the Catholics and the Mormons dragging out every bigot for the congressional and presidential elections?
Karl Rove will be sending you all flowers for making national elections a referendum on gay marriage.
Rob Moore
Jesus H Fucking Christ. If these comments are any indication, we are fucked. All this screaming does nothing but play into the hands of our enemies and there are a lot of them. I don’t live in California, but I have a stake in this fight. I donated as much money as I could to the No On 8 campaign. I will give this opinion. If 2010 is the year of the repeal effort, then we must get behind it to prevent a total train wreck because, if it fails, we won’t be looking at 2012 for repeal. We would be lucky to get a repeal in 2020.
I am as impatient as anybody, but we need to make sure we know what we are doing when we do it. If it turns out all this back biting and name calling cannot be fixed quickly, what hope do we really have. Too many egos are involved.
B
Lloyd Baltazar wrote, “@QueerToday: IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO HELP CONTRIBUTE TO THE 2010 CAMPAIGN FIGHT TO REPEAL PROP 8 IN 2010—–THEN DON’T!”
Lloyd, if you want people to give you (your organization or favorite organization, actually) money, then it is reasonable
for them to ask to see something resembling a business plan.
Shouting in all caps is not a business plan.
Think of donors as venture capitalists – they’ll give you
money only if you convince them there is a reasonable chance
of success. If you can’t do that, a reasonable strategy is
to let you guys run on “youthful enthusiasm”, treating your
efforts as “viral marketing”, and then take advantage of that
effort to get a repeal in 2012.
It’s no use to shoot your wad in 2010 if are almost certain to fail and if your refractory period is so long that your next chance to shoot your would then be in 2014 instead of 2012. So, you have to make a credible case that you can succeed in 2010, and you have to explain how you’ll be able to try again in 2012
if 2010 fails.
Eric
@Geoff: Step down now. Please, you have harmed the Marriage Equality fight enough, and have broken the GLBT movement in California.
I am not associated (and in fact, uninformed on) LHV. As a queer individual in California who watched you utterly fail with prop 8, heard stories from friends of how EQCA has screwed other local orgs, and now sees you feeding into a comment war on a blog site, I am infuriated…blood boiling mad…that you are still around. It is nice you were trying to help, but it’s over. Resign. Thank you.
Lloyd Baltazar
@B: UP YOURS. I don’t sugar coat my words for anyone, politician or not.
I said what I mean and I mean what I said. My words are in English and they are so simple, even a 3rd grader can understand it. I’m not going to sit around here listening to all the faggot bitching and moaning from fairies who think 2012 is the better option. You have NO balls. WE are doing the best work we can and we are on the field making sure we get signatures for the 2010 Repeal Prop 8 fight. If you don’t like it, thats your problem. LHC was able to pass the ballot today. WHAT DID YOU DO TO HELP IT? Exactly.
And for those who sit on the couches bitching and screaming—-what are YOU doing to win marriage equality? I thought so.
See you all at the next canvassing event. IF you have the balls to show up.
David
Strategy? Game Plan?
1. No More Fear: Got that Geoff, no more ‘we can’t say that, it might scare off voters’, no more wonk-speak, no more legalese. Harvey said “come out, come out where ever you are” – well, it is not enough to just say ‘hey, mom, dad, I’m gay’. We’ve got to say ‘Mom and Dad, I’m gay, and this country is killing me, slowly but surely’.
We need to make it excruciatingly clear how harmful the ban on same-sex marriage is. We need to make it excruciatingly clear how terrible hate crimes are. We need to make it inescapably clear how much harm anti-gay bias causes to absolutely real human beings.
2. No more tit for tat: We cannot end one prejudice by living another. No more blanket condemnations of people of color, or people of faith, or any demographic whatsoever. Be precisely focused.
We need to celebrate the work by heterosexuals to advance our equality, we need to celebrate the work of people of color to advance our equality, we need to celebrate the work of people of faith to advance our equality. Praise those who are working for us loud enough and sincerely enough, and they will do even more.
Bash them enough, and they’ll find someone to help.
Acknowledge every bit of help, every step of progress, no matter how small. If you tell someone, that was helpful, but could be even better, you’ll get better. If you tell someone that ‘nothing YOU do will ever be good enough’, you’ll soon get nothing from them.
3. No more Mr. Nice Gay: Identify those individuals who are actively working to harm us, and focus on them specifically. If they even think of breaking a campaign law, sic lawyers on ’em. If they even skirt violating their tax-exemption, file a suit, make a fuss. Let nothing slide, at all, ever.
Hold homophobes accountable for every slight, every false claim. Imagine if every GLBTQ person in the U.S. joined a class-action lawsuit against the LDS and the RCC suing over suppression of religious freedom. Let nothing, no matter how small, go unchallenged. Parents of victims of hate crimes need to start suing those specific individuals in their community who teach homophobia. Make persecuting us expensive.
4. Fight fire with lawyers: Geoff, earn your salary – sue California to stop heterosexual marriages, since the California Constitution states: “A citizen or class of citizens may not be granted privileges or immunities not granted on the same terms to all citizens.” Heterosexuals are granted the right of marriage on terms different from those allowed to gays and lesbians: they are allowed to marry in accord with their personal religious beliefs, despite anyone else’s contrary religious belief, and they are allow to marry in accord with their innate sexual orientation. And sue over religious discrimination. Make it clear that everyone could have to walk in our shoes with us.
Support the ban on divorce, not to win, but to send a message about controlling other people’s intimate lives. Individuals who face economic hardship because of the ban on same-sex marriage should sue, if only in small claims, any business known to have financed Prop 8. Make injustice expensive.
5. Live honest, out loud and with integrity: If you hesitate to mention your partner to anyone, start mentioning now. Let the clerk at the grocery store see the two of you, and know you, and give a damn about you. Tell the waitress you’re celebrating your 23rd anniversary. Tell the kid selling cookies, you can’t buy cookies because you have save every penny, ‘cuz you aren’t allowed to get married.
Apathy, which, Geoff, your campaign nurtured, killed us at the polls in California. We need to make sure that no one is apathetic, that absolutely everyone with even the barest hint of empathy walks in our shoes.
That means one on one, it means ads, it means every sitcom with even a hint of social consciousness, every reality show, every celebrity, all the time. Every magazine, every newspaper, twitter and facebook and all the rest. We live this oppression day and and day out, we need to make sure the rest of society sees what it is doing to us, every day, day in and day out.
Get invested in every effort, as best you can, even if you don’t think ‘the time is right’. Hold the Geoff’s accountable for every single penny of every single donation. Let no one see us being disinterested, blase’, or too busy too care.
The antidote to bigotry is human contact. Bigotry dehumanizes and feeds on isolation – so we need to be gregariously, unflinchingly, unabashedly human.
Or we can just throw a lot of money at the same people who have lost for us over and over again.
B
Lloyd Baltazar just threw a temper tantrum, saying, “@B: UP YOURS. I don’t sugar coat my words for anyone, politician or not. I said what I mean and I mean what I said. My words are in English and they are so simple, even a 3rd grader can understand it. I’m not going to sit around here listening to all the faggot bitching and moaning from fairies who think 2012 is the better option. You have NO balls.”
Lloyd, what you have is a lack of manners and a temper problem that suggests you should sign up for an anger-management class.
Frankly, I wouldn’t give you a brass farthing to help repeal Proposition Eight because you’ve shown you lack maturity and thus can’t be trusted to use the money wisely: all I said in that previous comment was that you have to make a credible case that you can win if you want people to fund you. And you blew up when told the facts of life. With “friends” like you, who needs enemies?
Lloyd Baltazar
@B: Stop being fairy-hurt and get your faggot ass on the canvassing field and help us gain signatures for 2010.
You will accomplish more work for marriage equality by helping us get the signatures we need to put Gay Marriage in the 2010 ballot rather than worrying about my well-being. You’re not my therapist so please get off sissy pedestal. I will let you know if I am interested in your Anger Management classes. Thanks, babe.
Sapphocrat
Meanwhile, Maggie Gallagher is having one gigantic orgasm watching the pissing contest between EQCA and the Courage Campaign, and now EQCA and LHC. Great going. If this is the sort of bullshit we hear about going on at the “top,” what the hell must be happening behind the scenes? We are truly fucked.
John Jorge
@QueerToday: I don’t think tired PC considerations of race (generally b white people on behalf of others) is a valid concern here. The point is do something. Kors failed completely the last time, in most analyst’s opinion, why trust again/
QueerToday
John,
In my critique of Love Honor Cherish I have never once voiced my whole-hearted support for any one organization. I have always been a vocal critic of mainstream gay-rights organizations like Equality California, MassEquality, and HRC. That won’t change.
Challenging and questioning the establishment is essential to any movement.
That said, If you take a look at EQCA’s statements, overall, it seems they have learned some important lessons from the mistakes they made – credit should be given when deserved. They are beginning to do the work that needs to be done to win long term. I also think Courage Campaign is doing some really good work – particularly around building cross-movements among/between labor and queer rights.
I believe we need a diverse coalition of well-rounded, knowledgeable social-justice leaders to inspire enthusiastic, but often misguided, young activists like Lloyd Baltazar to make the connections among our many struggles, from labor to queer liberation. I have yet to see that emerge.
I believe it will take more than a year to build those kind of coalitions and to convince enough people to vote for marriage equality.
I believe, right now, while we build those coalitions and do that community education, we need to focus our attention on healthcare reform, enda, and making our local communities safer for youth and trans people.
1EqualityUSA
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.
Quotation of Eleanor Roosevelt
1EqualityUSA
Unless you are speaking about Maggie Gallagher.
Cam
@QueerToday: You said “Let’s take a closer look at Love Honor Cherish. Seven rich, mostly white, men decide to lead a 2010 effort. They are lawyers, finance directors, and advertising executives. Yet, somehow they are succeeding in convincing people they are more “grassroots” than the multitude of organizations, experts, and activists that are supporting the 2012 effort – including a vast coalition of organizations serving populations of color.”
_______________________________________________
Thats funny, your description of the Multitude of organizations, experts and activists supporting the 2112 effort sounds a HELL of a lot like the same people who screwed up the Prop 8 fiasco.
Sorry, I’m not sure which of those organizations you work for, but it’s just like General Motors, if you’re the ceo who screwed up the company don’t act surprised that you get kicked out.
jwalker666
@Rob Moore: I could not agree with you more. It does not good to argue about it, and I was surprised when I read the comments on this story. Well, I guess I should not have been surprised, given the amount of bitchy queens are out there…but anywho, Nothing is going to get done by people not coming together to make it happen. I happen to agree with the 2010 repel of Prop 8, only because what I have heard is it would be alot easier to get it repelled since it is an off year election, and since Obama will be running again, it will likely have close to the same result.
Sam
@erasure25: “How can we convince others that this issue is very important to us and that our FUNDAMENTAL rights and our lives are profoundly impacted and at the same time say we are willing to wait 2+ years. It doesn’t make any sense. If its that important we fight for it.”
This is the big problem with the 2010 crowd: They think that the options are to either go to the ballot in 2010 or sit on your ass and do nothing. That’s a complete false dichotomy.
How about this: Start working NOW on a ballot repeal in 2012, when you might actually be able to win? No waiting, no giving up. Fight hard, fight now, vote in 2012.
What’s so difficult to understand?
Sam
@Leo: “The longer this battle takes, the longer Mr. Kors gets to draw a very handsome salary from other people’s wallets. I bet he’d put off attaining same-sex marriage another 40 years if he could.”
This is such bullshit! I’m so sick of this Queerty meme that people who dedicate their working lives to gay rights at MUCH lower salaries than they could make in the private sector are somehow sabotaging their own efforts in an attempt to keep making money. If money were really what these folks were after, they’d be out in corporate jobs, not putting in a massive amount of hours for relatively little pay.
It’s just so absurd and hugely offensive. You can disagree all you want with the way Kors has handled things – I know I do – but to suggest he intentionally sabotaged the No on 8 campaign to keep his organization going is just bullshit.
Javier
I will not help gather signatures to get it on the ballot in 2010 because I don’t want it on the ballot in 2010. It is ridiculous to put this on the ballot next year after we ran one of the most disastrous campaigns in referendum history. I still haven’t heard a good game plan on how to win the public’s vote. All I hear is we must do it again. Before we go back to the ballot, we must have a gameplan, a strategy that will lead us to victory. Moreover, I think the growing consensus is that 2010 will be a GOP year, with a distinct growing possibility that they will take back Congress and even the CA legislature. Why in the world would we want to vote on this in such a climate? I see a lot of starry eyed eagerness to revote on this, but nothing that shows me that we are ready to wage the type of campaign it takes to win.
Sam
@David: That’s pretty good.
Chitown Kev
@Andrew:
Depends on what time frame you use I suppose. Does state and municipal laws banning discrimination count? I think they do.
emb
Reading the snipery and infighting in this thread, it’s clear to me that as a movement, we’re totally doomed.
Javier
Perhaps, EMB, but the problem is indeed with the gay rights movement. We have no comprehensive, cohesive gameplan to forward our goals. We don’t even have a hierarchy of goals. We lack the type of centralized, cohesive organization that the rightwing has, as well as shared worldview, beliefs, and zeal. Further, we lack the type of enthusiasm and obsession with converting people to our viewpoint that the rightwing has. My conservative friends are always trying to convince me that their views are morally and intellectually correct. Liberals seem not to care about changing minds. We are too sophisticated, too individualistic for our own group. That is why health care reform, immigration reform, climate change reform, and gay rights are all in languishing.
JPM
I agree with EMB… Cat fights won’t help. The past prop 8 campaign was a mismanaged mess, that’s why we lost in the first place. Now comes this attempt to repeal it, and right off the bat, more messes.
In MY opinion, we should drop the word MARRIAGE altogether, so we at least get rid of the religious groups in our asses. We should fight TOGETHER for the BENEFITS of marriage, but if we call it CIVIL UNION instead, it would be just as good.
SF Dude
1. Courage isn’t steamed at Love Honor Cherich…because LHC is just a bunch of 7 white guys with a publicist, and whatever they do is irrelevant, because they can’t collect the million signatures and qualify this thing.
2. Equality California has no ability to criticize anyone for anything ever, after they screwed everything up by tragically running Prop 8 into the ground. And yeah, Kors’ quote was pretty ridiculous. And who’s Marc Salomon? He’s not even a campaigner…just another lobbyist.
3. So let’s see what Courage cooks up, since that will be the initiative that qualifies.
Michael McKeon
Ok, Equality California is over as an organization clearly. Brothers And Sisters, this is a fight, a fight that we need to band together to win. If someone punches you in the face, do you wait 3 years to punch them back?? No, you kick their ass as soon as possible.
As a COMMUNITY and I believe we have one, we’re a little tired and beat up but we’re used to that and the other side isn’t.
Something else to keep in mind, is we cost them money every time we launch a phone bank, we need to continue this fight, for now in 2010, and again in 2012 if need be. We need Larry Kramer’s fire in the belly to win and we have to keep it together.
Remember, the yes on 8 folks had a huge up-hill fight, and they won, in 2010 it’s our turn.
SF Dude
@Eric: agree
Equality California will not be respected until Kors steps down. He is the key reason Prop 8 was lost.
SF Dude
@John Jorge: wrong.
A key reason Prop 8 was lost was because the white folks running it forgot about people of color. dumb dumb dumb…and our fault, not the peoples of color’s.
Inland Empire
Regardless if you support 2010 or 2012, we all need to start changing peoples minds about Prop 8 now!
Sam
@Inland Empire: AGREED!
hyhybt
@Sam: What I’d really like to know is this: since the ship has sailed and there *is* going to be an attempt this coming year, how much or how little would you support it? Meaning, are you so opposed that you’ll vote against it even if it makes it to the ballot? Are you opposed enough that you wouldn’t sign the petition? Or are you just unwilling to campaign, collect signatures, or send money?
I’ve thought all along that, while 2012 might be better theoretically, there was no way there wouldn’t be some kind of attempt in 2010 so you might as well try to make that one work.
Sapphocrat
@SF Dude: “A key reason Prop 8 was lost was because the white folks running it forgot about people of color.”
And because anyone who wasn’t on the fabled executive committee (Yes! You too can run the most crucial rights movement in 40 years — right into the ground! — for a mere $100,000 donation to EQCA!) was persona non grata.
I will go to my grave bitching (to myself, no doubt, because no one is listening) that no one “in charge” was even remotely in touch with the people they were _supposed_ to be working on behalf of: us VERY average, NON-rich, non-A-List, NON-gay-white-males who busted our asses for No On 8, while BEGGING to be “allowed” to give input, or at the very least have some foreknowledge of what was coming next.
They didn’t just forget about people of color — they forgot about _everyone_ who wasn’t part of their inner circle.
At the risk of a self-plug, if anyone wants to know why I’ve given up on ALL these self-appointed leaders — and have lost all hope for equality in my lifetime — hit my blog. The latest post is going to be the _last_ post for a long time. It says everything.
I swear, sometimes I think we are indeed being sabotaged from within. Anyone ever wonder how an antivirus software maker would stay in business if it ever succeeded in wiping out all computer viruses? Think about it.
schlukitz
@Chitown Kev:
Wow! That’s powerful, Kev.
Chitown Kev
@schlukitz:
What is? (I think I know what you’re talking about but I just want to be sure.)
schlukitz
@Chitown Kev:
Sorry. I should have referenced that. From your post no. 12:
“Except for a few minor cliques, homosexuals are in reality almost totally lacking in feelings and solidarity. In fact, it would be difficult to find another class of mankind which has proved so incapable of organizing to secure its basic rights.”
Magnus Hirschfeld-1927
Chitown Kev
@schlukitz:
Yeah, I figured right, schlukitz. For those who don’t know who Magnus Hirschfeld is (and we all should know…)
http://www.stonewallsociety.com/famouspeople/magnus.htm
B
Lloyd Baltazar “@B: Stop being fairy-hurt and get your faggot ass on the canvassing field and help us gain signatures for 2010.
You will accomplish more work for marriage equality by helping us get the signatures we need to put Gay Marriage in the 2010 ballot rather than worrying about my well-being.”
Let’s just say that your attitude is such that you won’t get any support from me for the simple reason that you obviously are the sort who would alienate people so thoroughly that my time and effort would simply go down the drain as you proceed to piss off the people whose votes you’d need to win.
Have you ever seen the fake job-review form that sometimes gets passed around as a joke?
…
Communication skills:
1. Talks to God.
2. Talks to himself.
3. Argues with himself.
4. Loses arguments with himself.
Some individuals have negative productivity – the organizations performance improves when they are on vacation. I suspect that you might be one of those.
Michael McKeon
@QueerToday:
And you are?
Michael Phillips
I’m a little perplexed with all this discussion on 2010 vs 2012.
Let the groups who support a ballot measure in 2010 go with it and the other groups who support 2012 can help as they can or want.
If we win in 2010 the 2012 folks can be ready to defend it if needed. If we loose then the 2010 folks can work with the 2012 groups and get this thing done….
Josh
@B: I think you need a mirror.
Andrew
@Michael Phillips: It’s about fund-raising. They are actually fighting over the available pool of contributions. Don’t expect them to “help each other,” after their public comments – for each group it’s about being “right” now.
Michael McKeon
No.70 @ Michael Phillips. Thank you, well said and that is the community spirit that we all need right now.
KK Bloom
@ Michael
“Remember, the yes on 8 folks had a huge up-hill fight, and they won, in 2010 it’s our turn.”
They never had an uphill battle. Outside of small coastal enclaves the pro-equality people always had a problem. Bakersfield, Inland Empire, etc, many areas of CA are not remotely pro-day. However the EQCA folks fucked up completely. I gave them money and they mismanaged everything. In a way I wonder if they (the people in power collecting cash) ever want gays to get equality. After all, as long as they can’t keep “fundraising” without a battle.
David and Sapphocrat make good points…we need more of them and far less of the pointless, useless Geoff Kors of the world.
1EqualityUSA
We all thought we were going to win. Obama’s 2012 election worries me. Repeat at the voting booth? God is mighty important to many for whom,lives hang in the balance. For some, just sending their daughter out for a carton of milk might end in tragedy. Often poverty has people clinging to God as though He were a life raft. To expect some who grow up in violence or societal woes to, then, turn around and vote for our issue,an issue going against what they’ve been taught in Church, is an uphill climb. I work with the poor and underserved and their relationship to God is different than of those who grew up relatively safe, well fed, secure, well liked, and hopeful. God is their lifeline literally and we gays are not going to tug it to severely.
B
Josh wrote, “@B: I think you need a mirror.” Josh, I think you need to grow up.
B
Andrew wrote, “@Michael Phillips: It’s about fund-raising. They are actually fighting over the available pool of contributions.”
The real problem is that losing in 2010 might mean not being able to get enough funds to try again in 2012. Also, they claimed in one of the ‘town hall’ meetings on repealing Proposition Eight that to win in 2010, they have to change the minds of 1000 people per day. To win in 2012, it is half that number, assuming a consistent effort.
There’s an additional advantage for 2012 in that the ‘yes on eight’ side won’t be as effective at fund raising until there is a credible threat (e.g., an initiative where people are gathering signatures), so you can run ‘outreach’ campaigns leading up to 2012 with a relatively weak response from the opposition.
It’s a tradeoff with no “right’ answer – a question of whether you should wait two more years to get a significantly higher chance of success.
1EqualityUSA
Dear B,
“Proposition Eight that to win in 2010, they have to change the minds of 1000 people per day. To win in 2012, it is half that number… ”
That’s ominous. Do you think with all of the post prop 8 debates, some minds might have changed? It seems that many chose not to vote on it, if any ambiguity on the issue existed. The ones who have brought up the issue with me, after Prop 8 passed, said they, “just skipped voting on it.” That’s as close to it as they would come to voting for gay equality. I feel that this was out of their comfort zone at that time. Perhaps, after having two years of discussion about it, many have been desensitized or even had regrets afterwards? We lost by 2 percent. Does that really add up to 1000 per day? When does the clock start ticking? I don’t know how “1000 per day” was calculated.
Michael McKeon
@ no.74 KK Bloom: The yes on 8 folks had an uphill fight in the sense that we out spent them,and it is historically more difficult to get a yes vote on an issue.
I have been a California Resident for 25 years (NY transplant), and you are correct, we are a large red state with San Francisco in the middle, it wasn’t always that way, but thanks to home grown Jesus,and the importation of more Jesus, we are Texas with a few safe places and a huge part of the Los Angeles community that will a)Never come out or b)Feel that their money will insulate them, and none of this is their problem. So sometimes when I think that I’m preaching to the choir, I’m not.
2010 is our year to push through, we are going to do this, I’m not going to spend any more time on sites like this as it takes time from my being active to the cause.
Peace everybody, and let’s get married in 10.
Chitown Kev
@1EqualityUSA:
You know, I have participated with a number of Californians online and the overwhelming majority of those that I have chatted with about Prop 8 1) voted No 2) didn’t vote Yes or No.
I agree…there are a huge number of Californians out there that are genuinely conflicted.
B
EqualityUSA asked, “We lost by 2 percent. Does that really add up to 1000 per day? When does the clock start ticking? I don’t know how “1000 per day” was calculated.” If you look at the vote on Proposition Eight, 13,743,177 voted in total, with Proposition Eight passing by 2.24%, so you have to get 307,848 voters to change their minds. If you divide by the number of days in the year, that comes out to 843, but you can’t identify who it is who is going to vote in an election with complete accuracy, so you actually have to convince more than that. 1000 per day sounds like a reasonable estimate give that number. You can find the number of votes at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008)#Results .
There’s also a need for careful planning. Check out http://www.thetaskforce.org/downloads/issues/egan_sherrill_prop8_1_6_09.pdf for a detailed analysis of the vote. There are a lot of misconceptions. According to this URL, for example, the exit polls overestimated the African American vote in favor (which some people had been blaming for the outcome): “Analysis of the full range of data available persuades us that the NEP exit poll overestimated African American support for Proposition 8 by ten percentage points or more. Furthermore, much of African Americans’ support for Proposition 8 can be explained by the fact that blacks tend to be more religious than Californians as a whole.”
That suggests that outreach programs designed to change opinions have to be designed with an understanding of the effects of religious beliefs, particularly fundamentalist religious beliefs, and how to approach this particular demographic. Screaming that religion is the problem (as some people have been doing) will be counterproductive – fundamentalists have a martyr complex to start with and attacking them will make them even more incalcitrant as they imagine themselves being persecuted for righteousness sake while they are actually sitting in the comfort of their homes.
B
Michael McKeon wrote, “Ok, Equality California is over as an organization clearly. Brothers And Sisters, this is a fight, a fight that we need to band together to win. If someone punches you in the face, do you wait 3 years to punch them back?? No, you kick their ass as soon as possible.”
The question is whether waiting three years is what it takes to
“kick their ass as soon as possible”, as you put it.
I don’t think anyone disagrees with “as soon as possible”. Rather,
the disagreement is over the year in which “as soon as possible” will occur.
1EqualityUSA
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KiL1pj6t5HA/SRDvXLWMoAI/AAAAAAAACxE/LAEwCcdbB84/s320/Prop+8+at+Merced+polling+place.jpg
(ABOVE IS THE PHOTOGRAPH FROM A MERCED VOTING BOOTH THAT HAD PRO-HETERO MARRIAGE POSTERS UP ALL AROUND WHERE PEOPLE WERE VOTING!!!
Election 2008
Tuesday, Nov. 04, 2008
Pro-family posters upset one Prop. 8 voter
By DANIELLE GAINES
After posters on a church wall upset a young man voting no on Prop. 8, the impartiality of two precinct polling places has been called into question
The series of posters were hung on a wall behind voting cubicles at First Baptist Church, 500 Buena Vista Drive, and described traditional marriage roles.
The posters did not explicitly promote voting yes on Prop. 8, but carried essentially the same message, the voter, Roman Scanlon, said.
A Supreme Court ruling bans politicking in or within 100 feet of a polling place.
Scanlon and his mother went in to the polling place to vote just before noon. As he was completing his ballot, he realized people were looking up to read posters just beyond his voting cubicle. He saw posters for the Marriage and Family Ministry that defined the role of man and woman, husband and wife, he said.
“I was shocked. I thought, ‘You have to be kidding me,’” Scanlon said. “I turned to my mom and I said, ‘Can you believe this?’”
Scanlon snapped some shots of the board as he was being verbally forced out of the area, he said.
He asked that the posters be covered, but poll workers said they would not do anything to cover the board.
Joyce Bayne, the precinct inspector, said the sign was up when she and other volunteers arrived last night to set up the voting booths. She said she didn’t know if it was a permanent fixture of the church.
An open hallway in the church actually serves as polling place for both the 22nd and 29th precincts in Merced. The voting booths for precinct 22, where Scanlon lives, directly face the display.
Bayne said the blanket was removed after her husband, Richard, received confirmation from the County Office of Elections that the signs were permissible. Richard is the inspector for Merced Precinct 29.
An operator at the Secretary of State’s election hotline said similar issues are a “hot topic” statewide today. He said the situation sounded like a “close call” and an investigator would be sent out.
Shortly after noon when the Sun-Star arrived at the church, a green blanket flung over the hefty display covered the posters. Less than an hour later, they were again out in the open, though some of the posters were no longer included in the montage.
Reporter Danielle Gaines can be reached at (209) 385-2407 or [email protected].
QueerToday
@B: B, don’t confuse preparing and working our asses off for 2012 with “waiting.” No one is waiting.
1EqualityUSA
Here is the translation of “divide and conquer” in different languages:
French diviser pour régner
German teile und herrsche
Latin divide et impera
Spanish divide y vencerás
Cam
@Sam: You said “This is such bullshit! I’m so sick of this Queerty meme that people who dedicate their working lives to gay rights at MUCH lower salaries than they could make in the private sector are somehow sabotaging their own efforts in an attempt to keep making money.”
____________________________________________________
Yeeeeaaaaahhhh, we hear that all the time, but just curious…could you please list the organizations willing to pay Kors and the other directors around $400,000 to work for them? Just where are these private sector companies that are clamboring to hire these guys, who are just SO generous and dedicated to the cause that they’ll accept a measley several hundred thousand to work. Why thats barely enough to buy food!
1EqualityUSA
$400,000.00? —- Benefits included? Is it really that much? Anonymity is comfortable, as no feakers on “a mission” can blow you away, but is publicly representing our cause paying that much? I’m stunned. 40 hour week?
Michael McKeon
There is so much in/fighting on this page. I’m guilty of it too. If we are ever going to pull this off in 2010,12 or ever, we’re going to have to unify like we (sort of did) in the 80’s around AIDS. I think that as a community we saw that as life or death, this is also life or death, please pay attention to the far right, they are not your friend they are your enemy, and if we don’t stop them we will find ourselves in a world of shit.
My point: Lets not allow them to divide us, those of you who believe in waiting until 2012 please support those of us that want a vote in 2010, as we will support you in 12 if we’re wrong.
Michael C. McKeon
1EqualityUSA
2014 out of the question?
schlukitz
The average workingman’s salary in the US is $50K annually according to Simply Hired.
http://www.simplyhired.com/a/salary/search/q-Working+Man.
Note that the salaries listed ranged from a low of $19K for a manufacturing tech 2 job, to high of $94K for an enterprise technical solution architect.
A fireman, who risks his life daily, only earns an average of $34K.
So what, pray tell, makes a gay civil-rights worker worth $400K plus perks…and what would any of these people be trained to do that would garner them more than the top annual salary of $94K shown if they applied to private enterprise for employment?
In a piss-poor economy where a college graduate can’t even get a job as a dog-catcher or as hamburger flipper at McDonalds, these $400K and more a year “equality-workers” sure ain’t working for salaries equal to the rest of us working stiffs who support them with our dues and contributions.
My $100 contribution to Equality California on Prop 8 only paid for a tenth of Mr. Kor’s daily salary. It would take 400 such contributions, just to pay his net salary for one year.
Then there is the additional 15% for taxes, Workmen’s Comp., Disability Insurance and Social Security which the employer must also cough up…which is another $60K.
Underpaid? In a pig’s ass, as my father used to say.
I say, blow the fucking whistle on them!!! They’re just as bad as the churches who are bleeding the working stiff dry as well to support their elegant and opulent life-styles.
All these people exist merely for their own celebration. If and when civil-rights finally comes, these people will all be in the unemployment lines with the rest of us slobs.
1EqualityUSA
I wish Courage Campaign and all would not dilute the marriage equality cause with other issues, such as hounding Governor Schwarzenegger about Harvey Milk Day, clinics closing, etc. Let’s attain equality first, then tackle health care and holidays.
If they were really on top of it, Schwarzenegger would not have slipped another very conservative, anti-gay, former Republican state Senator Charles Poochigian, to a vacant seat on the state’s 5th District Court of Appeal in Fresno. Our discrimination plight is going to amount to a court case eventually, as did Loving vs Virginia, so the judges and Supreme Court justices should be the focus of any gay rights representatives, if we are going to get bang for our bucks.
B
QueerToday wrote, “@B: B, don’t confuse preparing and working our asses off for 2012 with “waiting.” No one is waiting.”
By waiting, I meant waiting to put the initiative on the ballot,
not waiting in the sense of twiddling one’s thumbs.
1EqualityUSA
B,
Is it a foolish notion to wait until two years after Obama’s second term, 2014? I’ve got to go clean my shower stall. Ajax is clearly not as interesting as discussing equality, but I have my standards.
B
1EqualityUSA wrote, “B, Is it a foolish notion to wait until two years after Obama’s second term, 2014”
Not if, after the financial drain of trying to stop Proposition Eight in 2008 and the projected financial drain and human effort of trying to repeal it in 2010, there simply aren’t the resources to try again in 2012 (if the 2010 attempt fails).
The problem is that the homophobes have deeper pockets, due to the Mormon’s and Catholic’s ability to raise money, if nothing else. An initiative in 2010 will trigger an increase in anti-gay messages as the opposition tries to fight the initiative. An ‘outreach’ program won’t trigger the same level of opposition. If you can’t win in 2010 and are out-spent by the opposition, you might actually reduce your chances of winning in 2012.
I think we both want Proposition Eight repealed as fast as possible, so the issue is whether an attempt in 2010 would
from a practical standpoint preclude an attempt in 2012 or
make an attempt in 2012 significantly more difficult.
1EqualityUSA
Is it too late to wait? Hasn’t the ball already started rolling? I’m already married, but what about those excluded from this legal contract? Throwing Muses are bouncing off of my shower stall walls. Why can’t I wallow in ajax today? It seems to me if we waited until two years after Obama’s second term, it would give enough time for outreach, money gathering, and less risk in the voting booth. Is it too late to wait?
hyhybt
@B: I think we both want Proposition Eight repealed as fast as possible, so the issue is whether an attempt in 2010 would
from a practical standpoint preclude an attempt in 2012 or
make an attempt in 2012 significantly more difficult. …or makes a 2012 attempt redundant. The thing is, there *is* no perfect time. The odds surely are better for 2012 than for 2010, and those of 2014 better still, but although the odds of winning in 2026 would be all but guaranteed I haven’t heard of anyone advocating for that date.
1EqualityUSA
“The two most powerful warriors are patience and time.” Tolstoy
B
hyhybt wrote, “The thing is, there *is* no perfect time. The odds surely are better for 2012 than for 2010, and those of 2014 better still, but although the odds of winning in 2026 would be all but guaranteed I haven’t heard of anyone advocating for that date.”
The point was that an attempt in 2010 might be very likely to fail and make it harder to win in 2012. What you want to do is to figure the average time for a repeal of Proposition Eight, and that has to consider the possibility that losing in 2010 might
preclude an attempt, or at least a successful attempt, in 2012 due to the financial strain and some other factors.
What I was suggesting was simply an objective analysis and then making the decision on the basis of the best data we have. It’s not a question of what you or I like, but rather what is going to work.
1EqualityUSA
B said, ” if you want people to give you (your organization or favorite organization, actually) money, then it is reasonable
for them to ask to see something resembling a business plan.
Shouting in all caps is not a business plan.
Think of donors as venture capitalists – they’ll give you
money only if you convince them there is a reasonable chance
of success. If you can’t do that, a reasonable strategy is
to let you guys run on “youthful enthusiasm”, treating your
efforts as “viral marketing”, and then take advantage of that
effort to get a repeal in 2012.
It’s no use to shoot your wad in 2010 if are almost certain to fail and if your refractory period is so long that your next chance to shoot your would then be in 2014 instead of 2012. So, you have to make a credible case that you can succeed in 2010, and you have to explain how you’ll be able to try again in 2012
if 2010 fails.”
This resonated with truth. Is it too late? Or is the ball already in the air? I’m o.k. with waiting, even until 2014, if it will sink the putt.
Michael McKeon
We need to make more noise right now, then we need signatures for a 2010 election, and LGBT investors who would like to see our business plan as a V.C. would, should go to exodus become(pretend) straight, born again, and join the Republican Party.
This is a true grass roots effort, as an LGBT person who either has or has access to funding to support a 2010 effort should just f-cking do it no questions asked, this is your future asshole, and the future of generations to come, I am old enough to be in disbelief in even having to post a paragraph like this.
Is there an LGBT community anywhere in California? Have we all gone barn sour? Jesus H Christ people we have to unite, not draw a fucking business plan, I am a very successful Buisiness Man and “I’ve got mine” but I’m not enough of a self absorbed freak to demand a business plan from my brothers and sisters, I’m just gonna fight, I will research the groups that I believe in and I will financially support them within reason, but more importantly I’ll get off of my ass and fight because I’m not too good for that sort of thing.
I don’t even remember who suggested a business plan, but who ever it was, tell me, if a friend or family memeber were going down in a blaze of glory (fast)? Would you ask them for a business plan? Sad thing is you probably would.
Michael C. McKeon
1EqualityUSA
Great ideas need landing gear as well as wings.
~ C.D. Jackson
Michael McKeon
Wait almost always means never.
Martin Luther King Jr.
1EqualityUSA
How poor are they that have not patience! What wound did ever heal but by degrees?
– Willie Shakespeare
This could go back and forth. I was one of the responders who said, “Yeah, 2010. Even if we lose we win.” Many things have to happen before the harvest. We are on the right path by speaking out, countering bigotry on sites, supporting Maine, and being involved in legalities, but if we leap before we look, it’s reckless. Evidence based practice is boring, but the time, energy, money, and mental equity is preserved to its most efficient capacity, when thought out in advance and applied judiciously. As for, “family members going down in a blaze of glory”, I don’t feel the threat to be so imminent that waiting, to pounce, will be our undoing. I do question the logic of having this happen during Obama’s 2012 attempt. Deja vu has always unnerved me. Dispelling the ugly myths about our community over a few years might take the wind out of the sails of these avaricious hate mongers that hide behind tax exempt “churches” to fill their worldly bank accounts. (Imagine how many victims of molestation they can pay off now. They won’t need to sell off their cherished real estate in Boston because of the lemmings forking over dollars to these tares.) My question, now asked 4 times, is it too late to stop it? If it is too late, then we had better all get behind the effort as though it was our last battle. 2014 makes more sense to me, but I’m accustomed to waiting for the right moment.
Michael McKeon
In my humble opinion, yes, it is too late to stop the 2010 effort. I absolutely believe that 2012 would be a disaster, and if Obama doesn’t hear us as a community, and do everything that he can to dump DOMA and DADT, then I will be the Lunatic running up and down Wilshire Blvd. stumping for one of his oppenents (not the Republican, I just couldn’t) and I don’t think that I’ll be alone.
Now, lets get off of our asses and get prop 8 over turned in 2010. If you need a plan? Perhaps you could devote some of your time on a planning comity. You could make a difference. Look, what if with your planning help to say Courage Campiagn,or Love, Honor, Cherish, your planning pushed that one person or donor over the line and we won? How would that make you feel? Plan away, donate your time, we need your HELP!
1EqualityUSA
If Obama was to follow through on his promises, it would likely be after he was elected for a second term. The momentum would be with us from the top down. I see it happening in 2014. If we lose now, contentious bigots will use this against us. I can just hear the rhetoric now, “They’ve lost twice! Twice the people of California have said that we want to protect marriage as between and man and a woman, but they just won’t take ‘no’ for an answer.” If we wait until the momentum is with us, this conversation won’t need to take place. Please think about it and see if you can get your posse to stand back. Let’s look at all of the pieces that are coming together, nationally speaking. People have had a chance to be exposed to evil hatred, such as, “GOD HATES FAGS” toad, and annoying Gallagherisms, and Catholics blatantly pandering their politics from the pulpits. These wads are their worst enemies. Average Americans will see through their spiritual emesis and make a decision that will surprise all. Time is needed to let them do sufficient damage to themselves. The tide is turning.
B
Michael McKeon wrote, “We need to make more noise right now, then we need signatures for a 2010 election, and LGBT investors who would like to see our business plan as a V.C. would, should go to exodus become(pretend) straight, born again, and join the Republican Party.”
On the contrary, people have limited financial resources and it is hardly unreasonable to use those limited resources carefully. If someone is asking for money for something that is too good to be true, don’t give it to them until that person can prove it really is achievable.
Regarding, “LGBT person who either has or has access to funding to support a 2010 effort should just f-cking do it no questions asked,” what about people (LGBT or not) who might be able to make a nice contribution to 2010 or 2012, but not both?
Tracy Greene
Just for clarification, Lloyd Baltazar’s comments are his personal beliefs and do not reflect SFVEquality.org nor the Courage Campaign.
Tracy Greene
Team Organizer
SFVEquality.org
John K.
Bottom line, I never believed that a loss in 2010 would hinder our efforts in 2012. What have got to lose? Money?
Fuck money.
Put it on the ballot, and see what happens. Even if we lose, it will be that much less work to be done for 2012. And who knows, we might actually win.
John K.
Any money that goes into 2010 will go toward changing the very minds of voters that we need to change. Again, even if we don’t change enough by the vote to win, it’s that many fewer minds we have to change by 2012.
Spending money on a 2010 effort is NOT a waste, win or lose.
John K.
What about all the people who would have spent money on both, but only have the opportunity to spend on one? They will wait until 2011 to spend their money, and that means that our efforts to change minds between now and 2011 will not be as effective. If people think they need to spend now, then now is when we will start getting the real work done. Tell people it’s not coming up until 2012, and they will do nothing until 2012.
1EqualityUSA
The way that same-sex marriage should reach the federal level is that it absolutely should be decided by the Supreme Court as quickly as possible. It’s a 14th Amendment issue. There’s no argument about it. We are citizens of the United States. Citizens of the United States are guaranteed equal protection under the law by the 14th Amendment, and that’s the end of — as the brilliant decision by the Iowa Supreme Court just said — it’s kind of the end of the discussion. You can’t treat people differently. It’s unconstitutional, and we want to be given our rights as citizens. …
We all had to put out an immense amount of money and time and energy trying to stop Proposition 8 in California to keep a group of bigots from taking away our rights. And, ya know, to have to fight this year after year state by state for a minority is clearly an insupportable burden, and I think that federal intervention should happen. Watch Kushner talk about the political issues »
(Tony Kushner had it right, an “Insupportable burden” that needs federal intervention.)
1EqualityUSA
damn, I forgot the quotation marks around Tony K’s words. My cat pointed this out to me.
Bill Perdue
Question: Why Did Equality California Just Shit on the 2010 Ballot Repeal?
Answer; because they’re Democrats and Obots and all of them put the partisan needs of hustlers like Obama and other Democrat right centrists before the needs of the movement.
Essentially groups like EQCA and HRC are front group for the Democrats and like all good little lap dogs they do as they’re told. They sell us out time and again.
[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_aNyF9Agb62o/SXS16kl_wDI/AAAAAAAAFsA/jjsfPdfmRUQ/s320/aSellOut-1.jpg[/img]
rt
Geoff Kors is a loser. He’s an egomaniac. He lost us California and now Maine.
His insipid conservative useless style of taking on the christian right in public battles is a waste of everyone’s time.
He is not the leader of anything but only of his own money grabbing “non-profit” group.
michael mckeon
@QueerToday: So where’s that 2012 effort????