Why Do So Many People Treat Gay Christians Like Crap?

This is the reality of what it means to be a queer person of faith. You get slammed from all sides.

…what is always ironic to me is how much anti-gay Christians and the rabid anti-faith folks have in common. The narrowness of world views, the inability to tolerate beliefs different than their own, the stereotyping of all members of a given group, the quickness with which both groups resort to name calling all point to a simple truth: they are all fundamentalists.

I’m sure the rabidly anti-faith folks don’t think that label applies to them, but it does. The reality is that most atheists do not typically berate people of faith, call them names, or dismiss them as brainless…. Who I am talking about are the LGBT people who engage in behavior that, if it were directed at any other group, would rightfully be identified as bigoted and bullying.”

– Reverend Emily C. Heath in her Bilerico post “The Limits of Tolerance: Anti-faith Voices in Our Community”, discussing how gay Christians get berated by both the religious right and the queer left.”

Image via Zazzle

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  • christopher di spirito

    Because Christians have treated gays like shit over the eons.

  • John Blatzheim

    @christopher di spirito So that means you should treat me like shit? Because that makes things better how?

  • Lars Eighner

    There was a guy named Quisling who was not very popular either, for pretty much the same reason.

    Christianity is wicked at its core. Gay people who adhere to it are simply traitors.

  • Jayrald

    @Lars Eighner: Yes I 99% agree with you but not until you find the real Jesus.

  • Matthew Dimick

    @christopher di spirito so you take it out on your own community? Isn’t that just kicking the dog?

    Christians within faith movements are doing more to shape public opinion than anti-christian gay sentiments have ever managed to do. The Episcople, Presbytern, United Church of Christ, and Lutherans have all become advocates for LGBT rights because of the individuals within those faith communities.

    What this quote is saying is that gay community takes out its hurt from the church out on the wrong people. And that, in being so anti-christian towards gay christians, they are in fact fundamentalist in their mentality about faith and religion.

  • Ogre Magi

    What do you want to bet Reverend Emily C. Heath is that cunt Cassandra that used to post here? What stopped her from coming around here anyway?

  • christopher di spirito

    @John Blatzheim: Your logic is flawed. Since I don’t know you, have never met you, why would I treat you like shit? This isn’t about me or my behavior. This is about Christianity treating gay people like shit. If you self-identify as a Christian, I suggest you clean up your own house and don’t play stupid word games.

  • christopher di spirito

    @Matthew Dimick: In virtually every form of antigay bigotry and discrimination (opposition to marriage equality, repealing DOMA, ENDA, etc.) when pushed, the haters use “the Bible” and the “Baby Jesus” as justification. Now run along and pray to the Rain Gods to end the drought in the South and the Food Gods to end the famine in Somalia.

  • Mike in Asheville

    Okay, I have not yet read the full article, just what Queerty has posted.

    The problem that Rev. Heath points to, though, is not the crux causing the problems. It is not sincere faith or the religion one smears the morals of those of us with same-sex attraction — IT IS ORGANIZED CHURCHES/TEMPLES/MOSQUES.

    Church/Temples/Mosques are businesses conceived by and empowered by MAN; certainly no loving God would advocate the murder of one of God’s people by another. The are no “words” of God, nor no Bible/Quaran written by God; those are the mere musings of ancient men, rewritten by politicians.

  • Daez

    I would have to say its because of all the stupidity associated with religion that most gays hate it as much as they do. Religion leaves a bad taste in the mouths of many of us, and it is up to religion to clean up its act before we come around to forgiving it.

  • Jeffree

    @Daez: shut up

  • Daez

    @Jeffree: Your contribution is right on par with your sex life: boring and uninspired as usual.

  • gayrab

    Let’s fact it, the LGBT community is just as intolerant as any other community. Ask any double minority (QPOC) people, or queer people of faith.

  • Harlock

    You can’t pray the gay away but you can dismiss all religion with reason!

  • asa1973

    @Matthew Dimick: 100% agree. And I’m an agnostic.

  • christopher di spirito

    To all the Christians out there, gay or not, you will not spend eternity sitting at the feet of God, fetching him beer and rubbing his shoulders, reacquainted with friends, family members and pets who died before you.

    It’s a myth. A lie. A fable.

    We’re born; we live; and then we die. You don’t get a bonus life after death if you’re a good boy or good girl here on earth.

    When you understand this, you’re truly free. Sorry to burst your bubble.

  • Joe

    As a man, I find that even though I’m a rabid feminist it behooves me to give some allowance to female anger towards the violence and discrimination directed toward them by men. As a white person its helpful to not get huffy every time a person of color is angry over oppression. This doesn’t mean people aren’t sometimes unreasonable in their anger, or that any member of a majority should put up with truly disrespectful behavior. But the anger is there for a reason and when you are part of a group that has caused some of that anger than understand that. Especially with a religion, a group that one actually chooses. A religious person doesn’t deserve harassment, but if you devote time and money to an organization that has oppressed so many than expect to deal with some anger, even if you’re one of the good guys trying to turn things around.

  • M.

    Abraham’s religions are the cause of homophobia!

  • Kamuriie

    Religion, from a historical perspective, has had an overwhelmingly negative impact on western culture. It’s slowed scientific progress, it’s been used as a justification for slavery/disenfranchisement of blacks, disenfranchisement of women, the denial of freedom to gays, and the persecution of numerous dissenting minorities–for centuries.

    It’s caused countless wars and deaths, it’s been used to manipulate the poor into exchanging a life of hard work on this world–benefiting the people controlling the church, which in times passed ruled society–in exchange for the promise of eternal life and happiness when they die (i.e., a fantasy).

    “Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.”

  • MBear

    I feel so sad for my LGBT siblings if they put any belief in a faith system that decrees their own death. What a horrible place to be.

    If/when they ever come to their senses and leave that tragically flawed, outdated and amoral belief system behind, I will gladly welcome them at my table, give them a hug, and show them that they do not need lies, deceit and threats to be good, ethical, moral and loved.

  • Kamuriie

    Times past*. The majority of believers believe simply because they were indoctrinated by their parents–they weren’t given the choice after being taught how to separate fact from fiction, how to determine the veracity of sources, and how to critically think.

    Religion is basically equivalent to Santa Claus. It’s a beutiful lie, one that children want to believe, given to them by people they trust–their parents. (Thank you, Jerry Holkins).

  • Kamuriie

    Beautiful*. Jeez. Can we get an edit function on this site, or what?

  • inoits2

    Many homos were raised in religious environments, including myself. There is a certain amount of comfort in the notion of a higher being and a church family. I believe it’s possible for gay people to separate the anti-gay rhetoric from Jesus’s message of hope. Christianity can be a personal faith for some people and they ignore the negative messages. Some would probably call faith a crutch but for others they need that crutch to make it through life. I would never disparage a person from believing something that offers them the possibility that we aren’t just dumb, miserable, mindless animals floating on a ball, careening through space, subject to the whims of the universe.

  • inoits2

    Can never be certain it is all a lie and a fable. Nope you can’t, sorry. I don’t know if there is a god with certainty and you don’t know there isn’t one. Please prove it either way.

  • Dave

    Because Gay Christians are an oxymoron like Black KKK members or Jewish Nazi’s. Know your enemy, do not embrace them.

  • inoits2

    Part of your rejection of gay people that are xstian is the fact that you feel frightened and guilty because someone believes something you do not. If it is true you are in big trouble if it isn’t no problem. Gay xstian threaten your sense that you might be wrong.

  • Auntie Dogma

    Daniel Villarreal conveniently left out this part of Heath’s post:

    “My atheist friends and I make no attempts to convert one another and are able to discuss our different beliefs in calm, respectful ways. They are not the people I’m talking about here.”

    That’s what’s missing in the paragraph at Queerty that reads:

    “I’m sure the rabidly anti-faith folks don’t think that label applies to them, but it does. The reality is that most atheists do not typically berate people of faith, call them names, or dismiss them as brainless…. Who I am talking about are the LGBT people who engage in behavior that, if it were directed at any other group, would rightfully be identified as bigoted and bullying.'”

    I would normally never link to or read a Bilerco post, but I did and it’s obvious Villarreal is just looking for attention, as usual.

  • MBear

    @Matthew Dimick:
    …or perhaps ‘faith’ is such a shaky bridge to be standing on, that many of us who require a good hard honest look at ourselves in the face of the negativity from social, familial, media, political and religionist propaganda, have been able to step outside the programming and brainwashing (yes, brainwashing) and see the amorality of christianist belief systems.

    Considering the 3 big desert myths are used as validation for emotional, physical, political and social violence against us *on a daily basis*, we are admittedly quick to ‘attack’ those who further validate those amoral and unethical belief systems.

    If you are a christianist, maybe you should recognize that there are some pretty damn good reasons for people to be upset, and seek to remodel your own christianist house. When the faith empowered are out telling me I’m evil and going to hell *daily*, I have YET to see ANY of my LGBT christainist siblings get involved. “Oh, that’s just what they believe” Do you realize that your christianist brethren call for our (yours (if you’re LGBT) and mine) deaths? And you have a problem with us getting uppity and angry?

    Allow the victims of your enabling to heal instead of attacking, or else you’re just as bad as your FoF, AFA brethren. We’re not saying choose, but until you’re up there attacking them and UNDERSTANDING that we have a right to be hurt and react negatively, you’re only multiplying the problem.

  • Kamuriie

    @inoits2: The burden of proof lies on someone claiming that something “is,” not with the person who says “it probably isn’t.” The existence of a deity isn’t a disprovable concept, and has no meaning.

    There are plenty of things that you can’t be 100% certain about (scientifically speaking, you can’t be 100% certain about anything except mathematical laws): for example, if someone was claiming that the world is full of invisible pink unicorns, they could rightly point out that you *can’t* be certain that the world isn’t full of invisible pink unicorns. So what?

    A Christian, as another example, might claim that once upon a time, a person named Jesus existed, who was the son of god and died for your sins. Okay. What’s your proof? Written, often highly contradictory claims by various witnesses of that person’s life? Why would you base your beliefs off of what someone else claimed that someone else did, and there’s zero evidence to back it up? The bible is a collection of myths. Fine–people are free to believe whatever nonsense they want. However, that freedom–and the freedom from my criticism–comes to an end when they start trying to legislate how I live my life based on their taking a collection of myths at face-value, as the “word of god,” based on someone else’s say-so, with almost zero critical thought behind it.

  • MBear

    @inoits2: I created the universe. prove I didn’t

  • Oh Dear (John From England)

    I think there is a big difference between spirituality and religion.

  • MBear

    @Oh Dear (John From England): because that makes it convenient to maintain your addiction to the religionist programming while still denying the tenets of ‘organized’ political systems masquerading as faith?

  • Thrutch

    I am anti-religion sole because of my experience with them. I do not believe in a higher power and believe that religion causes harm to society with its very existence. It provides people with excuses and crutches for their behaviour and I will not take being preached to lying down. I will not start a conversation about faith and religion, but I will not brush aside or ignore the attempts to convert, save and condemn me. I am an ATHEIST and proud of it. I will not be ignored or be labeled a bigot as I attempt expose your religious texts for the fiction they are. I will not ignore violence, tragedy and oppression at the hands of your faith. I will expound upon the virtues of LOGIC and REASON, that we do not need an outside deity to determine our morals. It is my duty as an atheist that upon an individual or group starting the conversation about religion that I do my best to stop them from drinking the Kool-Aid.

    With LGBTQ people this primarily done by explaining the historic and current oppression found within their faith. I do not hate those with faith, I pity them. Tolerance works both ways, your attempts to covert, save and condemn me are not tolerant. I will not take them lying down, I will only use words to change your ideas about religion, can you say the same. Or even better, lets just ignore the topic of religion all together.

  • inoits2

    @Kamuriie: I am talking about gay people having a right to believe as they choose without people telling them they are idiots. You still haven’t proven that it isn’t real. “The bible is a collection of myths.”…you make sweeping statements as if they are fact. You can’t prove anything either way. I personally do not believe it either but I don’t like know it all bitter queens telling gay people of faith that they have no right to believe in a higher power. They have a right to have a personal faith. When xstianity is used to pummel it isn’t xstianity nor what Jesus said.

  • WillBFair

    The militant gay atheists are another form of internalized homophobia. This time, they’re attacking our allies in the liberal church. They’re dupes of the old divide and conquer strategy, played by Sam Harris and others. The goal is to divide liberal christians from liberal atheists. And it’s working so well in our community because many of us have emotional issues from having been abused by fundamentalism.
    The levels of irony are off the scale. Self proclaimed rationalsists who don’t know the basic rules of logic, who cherry pick the record, name call, spit profanity, and rely on the whole barrel of rhetorical tricks. Minority people fighting bigotry while stereotyping others. Folk who claim to work for gay rights while spitting venom at some of the strongest allies we have.
    It’d be funny if it weren’t so tragic.

  • Markie-Mark

    So, 2,000 year ago there was a jew who could walk on water and who was executed. He came back to life and floated through the air. And if you drink his blood every Sunday you’ll live forever. You call it “faith”, I call it ritualized cannibalism (except in the case of Catholics where it is actual cannibalism because of the doctrine of Transubstanciation). You admit to believing that and you want respect? Good luck with that, Sparky.

    I think Jesse Ventura had it right when he said: “Christianity is for the feebleminded.”

  • inoits2

    @WillBFair: Yes, they have no respect for anyone that dare be xstain whether they support gay rights or not. But then so many gays condemn and hate anyone that advances our rights or tries to. Dan Choi and Lady Gaga to name a few.

  • inoits2

    @Markie-Mark: All sounds reasonable to me. Maybe he was an alien android that could do anything.

  • inoits2

    @WillBFair: oh and the worst culprit who dares be our allie…the president.

  • B

    No. 25 · inoits2 · Member · 105 comments wrote, “Can never be certain it is all a lie and a fable. Nope you can’t, sorry. I don’t know if there is a god with certainty and you don’t know there isn’t one. Please prove it either way.”

    Well, you can start with the creation myth in Genesis, with parallels a Babylonian creation myth to so well that either one was derived from the other or both were derived from some currently unknown source: .

    Liberal theologians think the Genesis myth was written after the Babylonian myth, whereas conservative Christian ones think it is the other way around. Given the relative influence of Babylon versus a rag-tag collection of Israeli tribes, I’d tend to believe the liberals.

    Then there is which has a statement of who wrote what in the first five books of the Bible, discussed in and . Some of this is a bit technical – differences in writing style and differences in duplicated or triplicated accounts of various alleged events, but with inconsistencies, that are signs of multiple authors being involved in what is attributed to “Moses”.

  • inoits2

    Guess what! People wrote the bible and your links. Still does not prove the existence/non existence of any of it. Where they there? Did they talk to them? Myths are oral history perhaps based on SOME truth. Oral history of course can change with each telling or exaggeration but it doesn’t disprove all of the myth.

  • inoits2

    @B: Genesis certainly jives with the big bang theory and the idea that there was a mitochondrial Eve

  • inoits2

    @MBear: Gesh I can’t prove it. See?

  • Kamuriie

    @inoits2: Again, your argument is basically “prove my (their) claim wrong.” Arguments do not work like that. You make a claim, and YOU back it up–not make an absurd claim and leave it to other people prove you WRONG.

    The bible contains myths, stories, whatever you want to call them. The bottom line is that it’s a book of stories with very little to no factual/empirical evidence backing up the vast majority of events it describes. There’s little (read: zero) proof that the major, founding figures of christianity actually lived. It has numerous, *demonstrable* falsities, inconsistencies, and on top of that, practitioners of the faith routinely disregard certain passages and pretend that they don’t exist. The bible condones slavery, stoning people for adultery, condones rape as long as it’s followed up by a marriage proposal, gross misogyny, and so on.

    History is full of people claiming to speak for the will of a deity, seeking to subjugate people to the deity’s perceived will. As I said before, religion has had an overwhelmingly negative impact on the western world.

    The bottom line is that you don’t seem to understand where the burden of proof, for any argument, lies. Whether or not we can disprove ANY claim, whether it’s about invisible pink unicorns, or lizard people, is irrelevant. Only mathematical laws can be “proven” in terms of scientific certainty. If you, or anyone else, claim there’s a deity–provide evidence to back up your claim. Otherwise, it can’t be tested, and is meaningless. Just like christianity is meaningless.

  • christopher di spirito

    The God & Eternal Life myth were created by humans thousands of years ago who are afraid of death.

    It was the first quid pro quo, if you will. Be a good boy or good girl here on earth, be kind, don’t cheat, steal, commit adultery or murder, and the reward of eternal life with the Heavenly Father.

    I get it; death sucks. No healthy, happy, well-adjusted person wants to die. But, the fact is, we’re all going to die. It’s the cycle of life and when we accept this tenet, we become free to live fuller, more meaningful lives here on earth because this is it.

  • christopher di spirito

    Take Anders Behring Breivik, Norway’s Timothy McVeigh.

    He is described as a “Christian fundamentalist.” Christianity fused with his radical, rightwing, anti-immigrant views, and he morphed into a Christofacist terrorist.

    Breivik detonated a bomb in a government building in downtown Oslo killing at seven people and then he promptly traveled to nearby Utoya island dressed police drag and opened fire on a youth group of teenagers. At least 85 people between the ages of 13 and 19.

    Timothy McVeigh was also described as a “Christian fundamentalist.”

    Adolph Hitler took the Bible at its word when he needed something that showed hate toward the Jews. The result was 6 million deaths of Jewish people and 400,000 gays.

    More harm has been perpetrated on humanity in the name of God and Christianity than anything else.

  • inoits2

    @Kamuriie: I am sorry, I didn’t really mean to discuss the proof of god or the bible. The question is whether gays should condemn other gays that are xstian. Why attack gays and liberal xstians that mean us no harm. Why tell a gay person struggling with their world that they are stupid children for believing in something you don’t get. Faith is a personal matter and no more worthy of disdain than Atheism. If a gay person needs faith to get through life why is that so bad, as long as they don’t work against gay rights. I have a gay friend whose life as an addict was saved by 12 steps. Doesn’t matter whether you think it’s a fairy tale because faith can save peoples lives and shouldn’t be completely dismissed. When a person hits bottom and is on the edge, telling them life is pointless and cold will not help them at all….but maybe if they believe they have a reason to live they will overcome.

  • Kamuriie

    I’d personally say that religious adherence is “more worthy of disdain than atheism” simply because it’s a belief in something without proof, which definitely isn’t praiseworthy. It’s equivalent to believing that the mentally ill are possessed by demons, or that walking under a ladder creates bad luck.

    I’m an advocate for the scientific method, as it–not religion–has done more to better the quality of life on this planet, and it’s only been hampered–not helped–by religion.

    When you say “worthy of disdain,” though–I wouldn’t go out of my way to criticize or belittle a religious person. I just don’t have much in common with someone that believes things that other people claimed were true, with no evidence backing it up. That person, to me, is gullible and is basing something fundamental about themselves on the face-value word of someone else–even if that person is a parent indoctrinating them in their own religion.

    In my opinion, indoctrinating your children in your beliefs is almost a form of child abuse. Children’s minds aren’t fully developed, and they inherently trust their parents.. accepting what they’re told as fact, when it’s unprovable conjecture.

  • inoits2

    @Kamuriie:” When you say “worthy of disdain,” though–I wouldn’t go out of my way to criticize or belittle a religious person.”

    Your entire comment is condescending and dismissive. I am not a great fan of religion but I think a person can have faith and see the wisdom in Jesus’s teaching. Not all people have the capacity to understand scientific methods or theories. They may do just fine living by the teachings and end up better people. I have seen no evidence that Atheists are better people than believers. I think for some people Atheism leaves them feeling hopeless and that can leave the door open for destructive behavior to fill that emptiness. Atheism is an idea for the over educated elite.

  • Kamuriie

    Of course I’m condescending and dismissive. Would you approve of someone insisting that mental illness is caused by demonic possession or that crossing the path of a black cat creates bad luck?

    Neither of those things are supported by facts–just belief. Belief in things not supported by facts is harmless at best, and very dangerous at worst. It is in no way praiseworthy.

    You claim atheism is an idea for the over-educated elite; I claim it’s an idea for those that see the importance in scrutinizing the veracity of sources, and that try to observe and explain how our universe works. The same process that led the catholic church to execute, excommunicate and imprison countless brilliant minds over its history.

    The exponential increase in the quality of life in the past 200 years is exclusively thanks to the rapid advancement of science. Rigid religious adherence and doctrine kept mankind draped in ignorance for *centuries*.

    On the flip-side, to respond to your smarmy, ignorant statement–religious belief is a crutch for the weak-minded, that can’t come to terms with their own mortality, the possibility that there is no afterlife, and those who were brainwashed by their parents and suffering from cognitive dissonance.

  • inoits2

    @Kamuriie: “On the flip-side, to respond to your smarmy, ignorant statement–religious belief is a crutch for the weak-minded, that can’t come to terms with their own mortality, the possibility that there is no afterlife, and those who were brainwashed by their parents and suffering from cognitive dissonance.”

    I didn’t say this.

  • Kamuriie

    You’re right. That’s what *I* said. What you said was “Atheism is an idea for the over-educated elite.” How could you possibly misunderstand all that?

  • inoits2

    @Kamuriie: Certainly there are superstitious people out there but what’s that to do with xstianity in it’s purest form…the teachings of Jesus. Take away all the other crap and you have a message of hope. Bad people will use anything they can to control and manipulate people, they use religion to scare people. These people are not xstians at all as Jesus was very anti-establishment. You seem to equate being religious with the most ignorant beliefs. Not all xstians are hateful, judgmental bastards, just as not all gays are promiscuous and harbor diseases.

  • Damon

    I’d just like to highlight the difference between anti-gay and anti-faith. Faith is a choice and so it’s not as bad to persecute those of faith as it would be to persecute homosexuals.

  • Aaron

    @christopher di spirito:

    Oh man, you’re so right!

    But you know what else is evil? Atheism.

    You see, Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, Kim Il Sung, Hoxha, Ceau?escu; they were all Atheists! And combined, they probably killed more than 100 million people. And you see, a lot of their policies were influenced by Atheism. They all committed mass murder against religious groups within their country, tearing down churches/temples/what have you, torturing “Counter-Revelutionary” members of religious institutions. Therefore, Atheism MUST be evil. Oh, and you know, all those regimes were against Homosexuality and oppressed it, too! (except Lenin) Obviously, none of this had to do with their Marxist-Leninist doctrine or moral standing. Nope. It’s all their atheism.

    Man, I sure am glad I’m a good little agnostic! We’ve never done anything bad!

  • John Blatzheim

    @christopher di spirito “Your logic is flawed. Since I don’t know you, have never met you, why would I treat you like shit? This isn’t about me or my behavior. This is about Christianity treating gay people like shit. If you self-identify as a Christian, I suggest you clean up your own house and don’t play stupid word games.”

    You seemed to be claiming that gay people are justified in treating other gay people of faith like shit because some Christians have treated gay people like shit. I simply pointed out that one wrong does not justify another, and treating queer Christians like myself with disdain and condescension isn’t helping.

    And I am so tired of the trite “it’s all a myth that no reasonable person could believe!” meme. Copernicus, Francis Bacon, Galileo, Descartes, Pascal, Newton, Gregor Mendel, Pasteur, Lord Kelvin, Fleming and Planck are just a few of the great scientific minds who were also Christians. You’re welcome to your beliefs, and I won’t try to convert you, but please don’t pretend like no one can be both a Christian and an intelligent, reasonable person.

  • inoits2

    @Kamuriie: Sorry read it as a run-in sentence. Calling people “Weak-minded” sounds like a fairly elitist statement to me. Why should people accept there is no afterlife? Because you said so? My grandmother may be worm food or she might be in Heaven. It doesn’t matter because it gave her strength and purpose. Atheism basically reduces us pointless space dust. Is that what you like to believe? That we have no reason. Why bother helping people if there is no purpose. I prefer to think we are here for a reason, maybe to learn. BTW, my family while religious was not weak minded or superstitious, they were simply good people that didn’t judge others and practiced their beliefs quietly.

  • John Blatzheim

    @Aaron: Bingo! You hit it on the head. Evil has been perpetrated for all sorts of reasons, and absent religion it would still be around. This all reminds me of the South Park episode ‘Go God Go!’ ( The idea that if we were all just atheists there wouldn’t be any war or evil is ridiculous.

  • Hyhybt

    Thank you, Queerty, for running this.

    I for one would rather be a fool and an oxymoron than be so filled with bile as most of the commenters so far have shown themselves to be that I couldn’t see (or didn’t care) that Christians (or gays, for that matter) are not even close to a homogeneous bunch.

  • StudioTodd

    @inoits2: No one has a “right to believe as they choose without people telling them they are idiots.” If what you believe is idiotic, expect to be called an idiot.

    Religious people always expect a pass because they call their bullshit “faith.” Sorry. Bullshit is bullshit.

    It is especially galling when they insist that their particular bullshit is the only “true” bullshit and could solve the world’s problems if only everyone would abandon logic and reason and believe in their bullshit.

    I don’t care if a person is gay or straight–if they are religious, I will lose respect for them and assume they are not too bright. Their sexual orientation doesn’t matter.

  • inoits2

    @StudioTodd: tsk tsk, such a damaged soul, oh right you don’t believe you have one. I say what you believe makes you an idiot. Another stupid godless fag that thinks that just because some religious assholes say you are a piece of crap, you dismiss it all. You Atheist are one bitter lot. Sad, the extreme anger you project makes me think you have doubts. It is rotten to call people’s belief in god bullshit. To them it is a comfort. You have no right dismissing something that for some people is all they have. Another elitist that thinks they have all the answers and that everyone else is just “dumb”

  • bbg372

    It is not bullying to expect one to justify her belief, nor is it bigotry to dismiss her belief because it is wrong.

    Just because Emily C. Heath and others are willing to be fools does not mean that the rest of us have to suffer them.

  • inoits2

    @bbg372: You’re a fool.

  • WillBFair

    @John Blatzheim: and inoits2, and Aaron,
    Thanks you guys for making argument.
    But the militants’ ‘it’s all myth’ meme is about diversion and distraction, another of their rhetorical tricks. They need to change the subject from the good that liberal christians do, and what great allies they are to us, and the laziness and self involvement of many atheists who’ve bought into the extreme selfishness of commercial culture.
    Among many games they play, the the main one is circular logic. Whenever a point is made that they don’t like, they either change the subject, or make a false conclusion from cherry picked info, or fixate on a non issue. All of this is driven from their emotional problems.
    So it’s useless to be drawn into their circular thinking.

  • christopher di spirito

    @John Blatzheim: You have every right to your beliefs.

    Join Texas Gov. Rick Perry in praying the Rain Gods to end the drought ravaging his state of it makes you feel less powerless.

    But at the end of the day, such a belief system is pure superstition and nothing more.

  • inoits2

    @christopher di spirito: Hey maybe it does help them feel less powerless. What the hell is wrong with that?

  • Adman

    Attention Reverend Emily C. Heath: Please desist from your clearly libelous claims against our community. Your attempts to scapegoat us to your true allies, the church. has been duly noted. Now shut the fuck up. Thank you.

  • prohomo

    @StudioTodd: perfect.

  • bbg372

    @inoits2: Another assertion among many that you cannot substantiate.

  • inoits2

    @bbg372: It is my assertion that you are a fool.

  • CJ

    I didn’t even have to read the comments section to essentially know what type of anti-faith bigotry would surface. But, I did read through the comments and my assumptions were correct.

  • Dr. Dick

    @Joe: Dear “proverbial” Lord, that’s the clearest explanation of dealing with ‘racial’ tension from a white person I’ve EVER read on queerty. Thank you for effin understanding bro, becuz I could not effectively express that to any of the latently racist, over-priviledged garbage spouting bigoted bs during the whole “Tracy Morgan Affair”…
    being able to understand/sympathize/compromise with people whose beliefs/lifestyle differ from your own is a rare quality, I’m beginning to see….

    THAT SAID, I personally find Christianity to be absurd in principle.
    Why would a divine personage wait several thousand years into written human history to give us a Savior (and decades later, the offical rule book)???
    Why can we selectively ignore most of the decrees in the Bible? (Cuz Jesus said “ignore the 1st book”?) Jesus was a Jew, shouldn’t we live by His example and be Jews?….
    At heart, it’s a poor amalgam of various pagan rituals, historical accounts and basic, proto-mythological concepts. I find it all fairly insulting to my idea of a “goddess” or whatever. “God” is petty and inconsistent. Why can’t christians (ie, most of my family)see what I see?
    But intellectual debate is different than outright hatred. I don’t H8 Jesus, I just find him irrelevant…

  • Dr. Dick

    damn, I wasn’t logged in!
    also, forgive the typography, I was too vehement to proof-read:P

  • Roman

    I think fair-minded folks have a difficult time reconciling how someone can knowingly participate, support and endorse Christian institutions that have boldly and relentlessly persecuted GLBT folks and worse – obsessively so. Christian leaders have willfully promoted hatred and ignorance for centuries that have caused enormous pain, suffering, abuse, discrimination, violence and death. It’s frankly inexcusable. This notion of making a decision to stay a member or join, then look the other way or work S L O W L Y to help this institution evolve is telling. At whose expense?

  • MikeE

    @Roman: The only problem with your statements is that you lump ALL Christian groups together into a single monolithic entity. It doesn’t work that way.

    Some of the largest Christian denominations have ACTIVELY fought for LGBT rights over the years. It is quite unfair to then over-generalize and characterize ALL Christians as anti-gay.

    All your comments demonstrate is a clear ignorance of the reality of the state of Christianity in this world.

    What you are doing is exactly the same as the anti-gay groups who characterize all gays as child molesters. Yes, some child molesters attack children of the same sex. In their eyes, that makes them a “gay child molester”. Doesn’t make the statement true.

  • bbg372

    @inoits2: That is precisely the assertion I was addressing. Thank you for demonstrating not only your inability to substantiate any of your claims but your deficient reading comprehension and reasoning skills.

  • Atlas

    I’ve never understood how people can lump all religious people together. Sure you you theophobic ones don’t think that the 52% of people who supported marriage equality in the recent Gallup poll are comprised solely of LGBT people and atheists, do you?

    The majority of queer allies, and a good deal of actual queers are religious.

  • xander

    The most vocal christianists are trying to turn the US into a christian theocracy.

    The most vocal members of the LGBT communities, (including people of faith, AND atheists/agnostics) are fighting for equality in terms of employment, marriage, civil rights, etc.

    Big difference.

  • inoits2

    @Atlas: Oh they don’t lump all religious people together, Athiests love Muslims as they can do no wrong.

  • Atlas

    That was supposed to be, “Surely you theophobic ones…” before someone complains about my typo instead of addressing the issue.

  • Tantalus

    Having someone disagree with your personal choices does not constitute persecution. Tolerance does not necessitate approval. I generally have no problem with people of faith so long as they realise their right to swing their fists ends at the tip of my nose, this is however something that many people of religion have a major problem with.

    Having said this I do have an issue with faith as a means of knowing what is real. If faith were a superior means of discerning truth there would not be so many different faiths, something that should be cause for pause to those not hopelessly drunk on the arrogance of their own conceits. In reference to gay christians, in my opinion they cherry pick from a book of horrors as indeed do many liberal or moderate christians who seem to expect respect and to be regarded as friends because they have selectively ignored the aspects of their religion they find distasteful… worse they try and convince others that said religions are not actually intrinsically sick and hateful claiming extremists etc have merely misinterpreted scripture… They come across like battered wives who keep making excuses for their violent husbands.

    As for those other commentators who bring up the old tired argument that religion is somehow less pernicious because atheists have done worse things, there is no practical difference. Whether one talks religious ideology or political/racial dogma in each instance someone gets a bug up their proverbial and becomes so convinced of the rightness of their contentions they are willing to sacrifice not only themselves but others to their greater good or higher power. The only thing separating communists from fundamentalist Christians is that the prolateriate heaven of the former was removed in time while the heaven of the latter was removed to some metaphysical realm. I also wonder how the crusades, wars of religion etc would have gone if the participants had access to modern weaponry and the capabilities of the modern industrial state. The nazi’s wouldn’t have gotten off the ground without a huge reservoir of Jew hatred already extant courtesy of centuries of Christian persecution ergo think twice before attempting to argue on the basis of numbers that atheism is worse than religion.

    Gay christians should perhaps ask themselves, what kind of God makes people gay or allows them to be born that way then condemns us to death in this life and an eternity of torture and burning in the next? Is such a god worthy of our worship? As for ex-gay ministries the bible is quite specific, if any two christians pray about one thing it will surely come to pass also by this you will know them, they will raise then dead and heal the sick. I have not heard of a hospital being emptied of its patients thanks to prayer or anyones amputated limbs growing back so I do not feel compelled to give credence to ex-gay claims. Being a gay Christian means you are sucking up to a deity that made us queer then made us miserable and fails to keep his promises… from the promise Jesus would return in the lifetimes of those who witnessed his first coming to the promise of healing miracles, no amount of cherry picking will change that. Also your choice for the reasons illustrated above will be regarded by many as intellectual prostitution and dishonesty.

    You are free to choose as others are free to disagree with your choices, sack-up and live with it.

  • Markie-Mark

    I love it when christians play the whiny victim card. Just because people think your beliefs are stupid you think that means they are treating you like crap. Well most of us have come to terms with the brainwashing that we endured as children and moved on. Once one moves on it’s very difficult to understand why people still cling to the spaghetti monster in the sky story. It’s just stupid.

  • christopher di spirito

    @inoits2: Not a thing. It’s delusional but hey, if lighting a candle and praying to dead saints and rain Gods help make life easier, I say “go for it.” Just don’t ask for tax exempt status.

  • inoits2

    @Markie-Mark: No people think you are treating them like crap because you are. We are talking about gay people who are treated badly by other queers. Calling peoples beliefs stupid makes you a bully. You have no respect for people when you do that and you have basically ended the conversation. You moved on but to what…nothing.

  • inoits2

    @christopher di spirito: What you can’t seem to grasp is the fact that people do feel helpless in this world, maybe not you because obviously you are so learned. Believing in something higher empowers some people to get out of bed in the morning. Queers seem to think religion is all about them and was set up just to torture them.

  • Tantalus

    @inoits2: So every belief must be respected? Our particular individual whimsies must be regarded as sacred and beyond criticism? When African witch doctors kill albinos for magical ingredients is this to be respected? Your thesis leads to absurd conclusions and would be completely impractical if practiced indeed it couldnt be.

  • Tantalus

    @inoits2: Sorry if people feel helpless but if the price of their peace of mind is my freedom and wellbeing my sympathy for your assertions evaporates. Take a prozac, get a full frontal labotomy whatever it takes to get you through the day but the moment my life is sacrificed on the altar of your need to believe in a higher power or acquire certainty etc that is one sacrifice too much.

  • christopher di spirito

    @inoits2: inoits2 opines, “Queers seem to think religion is all about them and was set up just to torture them.”

    Wrong again. If you followed this long, long tower of comments you would’ve read where I posted the God & Eternal Life mythology was created by humans thousands of years ago who are afraid of death.

    Be a good boy or good girl here on earth, be kind, don’t cheat, steal, commit adultery or murder, and the reward of eternal life with the Heavenly Father.

    I don’t care if you need “God,” or “a High Power” or an open credit account at Nordstrom in order to get out of bed. Whatever works for you if fine with me.

    As long as you don’t harm dogs, children or take two parking spaces when you park at the supermarket, do and believe whatever you want.

  • Dallas David

    Lots of obnoxious fundies around in all flavors of orientation and perversion. So many, in fact, that they’ve got to earn their respect up front before they have a right to expect it.

  • inoits2

    @Tantalus: Belief in god is not a whimsey you idiot. Why don’t you learn some respect…you don’t put people down or criticize some ones spirituality. Your bitterness toward religion is understandable but you are clearly unwilling to give the tolerance that want from believers to believers.

  • inoits2

    @Tantalus: WTF are you talking about. All you can do is see all christians as evil and deny that it is possible for Christians to support gay rights. What does someone having faith in a higher power have to do with your life being sacrificed. Drama much? You queens keep mixing the issue and the issue is that you need to treat believing gays with respect. It isn’t about whether xstianity is a wonderful thing. You are cold heartless bitter Atheist fags.

  • inoits2

    @christopher di spirito: Great thanks for allowing me to believ what I want and I promise not to harm anyone. I know all the theories about the invention of faith. Being good isn’t about the reward…it is about people living together in peace.

  • Ambrose

    This is a pointless and tiresome discussion. Those of us who embrace progressive Christianity, even if within solidly pro-LGBT churches like the United Church of Christ, need to engage much more vigorously in standing for the rights of GLBT and other persecuted folks, and in condemning all forms of bigotry as misrepresentations and hijackings of the Gospel. (For an example of how one mainstream congregation is doing just that, visit “hate speech is not the gospel” on Facebook.) Action alone will matter, words not borne out in action are pointless, as is Rev. Heath’s whining.

  • CJ

    It is interesting that so few people in the LGBT community recognize how many LGBT supportive churches have stood beside them in fighting for equality. Granted, the vast majority of churches haven’t. But, many have. The last time I checked, there were over 6,500 gay affirming churches in the world. Yes, there is actually a website that tracts this. That’s certainly more than many people realize. In my city and others many LGBT friendly churches actually take part in gay pride parades. But, unfortunately, many in the LGBT community prefer to just throw rocks, judge and vilify. It’s bigotry and prejudice, not even thinking for 2 seconds that not all people of faith are the same. Just as not everyone in the LGBT community is the same.

  • inoits2

    @CJ: These bitter pills are so full of hatred they would cut off their nose to spite their face. They ultimately don’t want support as evidenced by the nasty comments thrown at anyone that dare to do us a good turn, namely Choi, Gaga and Obama. Ungrateful asses that are never happy with anything or anyone.

  • Tantalus

    @inoits2: Inoits2 I wonder if you have read anything I have written above. I say Whimsey (forgive spelling) to mean upon a subjective basis, upon intuition or faith which is belief in things that cannot be seen or demonstrated, a personal preference with only tenuous connection to objective reality. Before mouthing off about belief in God (whichever god that might be) perhaps it would be incumbant upon you to prove your particular choice of deity exists. If you cannot then your contentions are similar to demanding respect for a childs belief in Santa Claus or the easter bunny.

    You are free to base your world view on faith if you so desire, I do not have to agree that this is a good choice. If respect means validating your subjective opinions either by positive assertion or silence then I can think of few examples of more breathtaking arrogance, a demand that one be allowed to sit in the stink of ones own self satisfied reflections never disturbed by a single contrary idea. “Respect my feelings or I’ll have a hissy fit and call you an idiot”. In case you hadn’t noticed this is a forum for expressing opinions not mindlessly agreeing with your particular religious choices.

    If I met you on the street I would no doubt respect you i.e. not instantly engage in philosophical discussion/criticism unless provoked.

    Unfortunately one thing people of religion (by this I mean those at the fundamentalist end of the spectrum) tend to be good at is demanding respect whilst failing to reciprocate it after all they are the righteous servants of god, the possessors of absolute truth while I and anyone who disagrees with them are the deceived shills of Satan and thus not worthy of the same rights and considerations they demand for themselves. You should consider this assertion when demanding respect for your opinions not because they necessarily have merit but because I must apparently respect your feelings, for your feelings are what your world view is based upon, one that is so tenuous and fragile it cannot abide criticism attempting to hide its objective paucity behind a demand for “respect”.

    In other words you complain, please don’t cram down my throat that the emporer has no cloths. If you cannot stand the fire get out of the commentary

  • Jim

    I love how the majority of the comments on this article prove the article’s quote.

  • Tantalus

    @inoits2: The only one getting emotional here is you. You speak of respect, why don’t you start by not putting words in my mouth. Of course some Christians support gay rights but this does not purchase my silence in reference to the dodgy nature of divine revelation or the discerning of truth by faith. If it did the most rabid fundamenntalist would also be imune to criticism. I notice while you have mouthed off and gotten all emotional you have not actually replied with any reasoned argument against my contentions just a load of blather about how hateful, ungrateful yada yada yada I apparently am. Emotional blackmail is not an argument. I respectfully submit you need to grow up.

  • Syl

    It’s organized, mainstream, and regressive religion-Roman Catholicism/Orthodox, Evangelical, Orthodox Judaism, most Islam-which is the enemy, not religion in and of itself. Forget all the arguments about whether God exists or not. Religion in particular, and spirituality more generally, are not necessarily anti-sex or homo/transphobic. Those doctrines emerged largely from Semitic tribal laws (not sleeping with dudes or crossdressing was like not eating pork or not wearing certain fabrics, a way of distinguishing “us” and them”) and the corresponding obsession with “cleanliness”, making all sex reproductive, and all reproduction within marriage. And it just stuck.

    There are lots of churches, denominations, and religions that are ok with teh gay. And they, along with the homophobic religions, do a fair deal of charity work (the laity and lower-level clergy that is; those at the top are living in luxury off of the piety of others, as has always been the case). Religion needn’t be a bad thing, and it is a good thing for a lot of people, LGBT and straight. Personally, one of the best things in my life was going to confession and being told by a very theologically learned priest that it wasn’t a sin, that the Pope is wrong, and that God loved me for who I was. I probably would have killed myself if I hadn’t heard that.

    The organized religions who are our enemies are a dying breed. That’s why they’re desperately trying to use the coercive power of government to force people to behave morally: they can’t convince anyone with logic or rhetoric, so they resort to force, either through the state or vigilantism. It’s the refuge of a lost cause. We just need to expose the crazies as the Christian Taliban they are, and wait. The old conservatives will die, and the young people won’t be there to replace their butts in the pews and their cash in the collection basket. They’ll be forced to change their doctrines and appeal to the young (at the cost of their older/conservative base), or stay the course and sail into obsolescence and irrellevence.

    Time is on our side. Religion is not going away, but it will become more diverse, personalized, and queer-friendly, and we shouldn’t be attacking our own and our allies for believing in pleasant little stories that give them hope and comfort.

  • inoits2

    @Tantalus: lol…I am not emotional or upset. You shouldn’t flatter yourself. I am not religious either. I just don’t like bully atheist who cannot fathom the possibility that they may be wrong. I don’t like Atheist that would call foolish something that has saved many people from certain death. Bullies that dismiss and belittle those that have pulled themselves out of addiction, etc. through a realization there just might be some purpose in life. Atheism dehumanizes us by making us into pointless creatures.

  • inoits2

    @Syl: ahhhhhh…a breath of fresh air.

  • John Blatzheim

    @inoits2: I just wanted to thank you, inoits2, for defending queer people of faith like myself despite not being a believer yourself. Clearly many here have automatically assumed that because you defend those like me you must also be a Christian. I actually read your comments though and noticed that you indeed are not a Christian. I immensely appreciate your civility and defense of queer people of faith. The way the anti-faith bigots here have attacked you only proves your, and my, point. Again, thanks and God bless!

  • inoits2

    @John Blatzheim: Well John you made my day. Thank you. I feel like i am talking to a wall with many of my non typical gay ideas…lol. I don’t like bullies of any sort.

  • Tantalus

    @inoits2: You are not emotional? Forgive me your use of expletives (“WTF” even if acronyms) implies otherwise as these are what adults use to express anger, frustration etc

    Yes I am an atheist but unlike many people of religion I would be willing to change my mind should compelling evidence be forthcoming. Theists might ask themselves the question, how would they know if they were wrong?

    I do not regard myself as pointless because I do not find the evidence for the existence of a deity(s) convincing. You display a remarkable lack of empathy in assuming I or everyone else must find purpose and meaning in precisely the same way as yourself. This is another criticism I have of many theists, they genuinely seem to have a problem putting themselves in other peoples shoes or seriously appreciating that others may genuinely think differently and be satisfied with a life other than there own.

    Have faith or your life is pointless! Don’t express an opinion contrary to mine as this is bullying…

    Being disagreed with does not constitute being bullied… that generally involves fists or overbearing abusive behaviour (i.e. being called an idiot, please cease projecting your own faults onto me).

    As a final reinteration (as this discussion is becoming an Alice in Wonderland rabbit hole of increasingly tedious emotional arguments). If gays want to be christians that is there business and I respect that choice in doing so… this does not place said choices beyond criticism however especially in a forum devoted to the purposes of discussion. If you want to be religious and above criticism I suggest emmigration to Iran.

  • inoits2

    @John Blatzheim: oh and I am a i understand the concept of interfaith.

  • AedanRoberts

    I perosonally don’t hold it against a gay man or woman who is religious. I treat them no differently even if I completely don’t understand their motivations.

    It simply feels like another form of Stockholme Syndrome to me. To follow a religion where 98% of it’s followers believe you are a mortal sin simply for being born gay.

    I have ABSOLUTELY no problem with gay people being spiritual- it’s just the desire to follow an organized religion like Christianity that baffles me. And while that may lead me to have very little in common with that person I will respect his or her decision to do so- as long as they don’t prosletize at me. I don’t mind smiling and nodding when the time calls for it.

  • xander

    @inoits2: I’ve met some very wonderful Unitarians — we worked together on a project for homeless LGBT youth.

    They, like you, will say they “don’t like bullies of any sort” (your words) so I wonder why they don’t call people “fag” and “fag” and “asses” (your words) but you feel free to use such language here? That seems like bullying to me. (and I am certainly not immune from thinking those words myself!)

  • inoits2

    @xander: Hey I never said I was perfect or holier than thou. I don’t believe in being “good”. I believe in being, and if I feel like using those words it doesn’t weaken the gist of my point. Unitarians are hardly angels and omg do we vary in our beliefs. The sunday service that some of our pagan members give makes me barf.

  • inoits2

    @xander: Probably I am not the greatest Unitarian in the world because I tend to have a more conservative viewpoint. My BF tells me I am not being a good Uni all the time.

  • B

    No. 43 · inoits2 wrote, “@B: Genesis certainly jives with the big bang theory and the idea that there was a mitochondrial Eve”

    Really? It gets the order all wrong, and the biology is flaky to say the least – it has birds and fish appearing at the same time, followed by animals that moved around on the earth’s surface. It now seems that birds evolved from dinosaurs. : “The ground-breaking discovery of fossilized Tyrannosaurus rex soft tissue allowed a molecular comparison of cellular anatomy and protein sequencing of collagen tissue, both of which demonstrated that T. rex and birds are more closely related to each other than either is to Alligator.[3] A second molecular study robustly supported the relationship of birds to dinosaurs, though it did not place birds within Theropoda, as expected. This study utilized eight additional collagen sequences extracted from a femur of Brachylophosaurus canadensis, a hadrosaur.[4] Only a few scientists still debate the dinosaurian origin of birds, suggesting descent from other types of archosaurian reptiles.”

    You had light billions of years before any earth-like planets appeared, not the other way around as Genesis claims. It’s silly to treat the creation myth in Genesis as anything more than poetry.

    BTW, if Genesis was divinely inspired as some Christians claim, why wasn’t the order in which things happened accurate? One wouldn’t expect the times to be right – you couldn’t express the numbers in ancient Hebrew – but it could have had birds following land animals without making the story hard to follow.

  • Atlas

    @AedanRoberts: “To follow a religion where 98% of it’s followers believe you are a mortal sin simply for being born gay.”

    Again, if 52% of Americans support marriage equality, and 76% of Americans are Christians, how can that possibly be true? Even if the entire 24% of non-Christians (remember there are plenty of Jews, Muslims, and even Atheists that hate us too) that at minimum still leaves 28% of the supporting 52%. So the majority of people who support gays are Christian, and more are coming around all the time.

  • Andrew

    I’m sure that most of the people who have commented on this story don’t like it when others arbitrarily define them. Why would you want to perpetuate a world of uninformed judgment?

    Who decided that everyone who has faith in God believes the same thing? If you just believe what you’re told, you might as well be a robot. Just because a person calls himself a Christian does NOT mean that he takes the Bible literally, or that he thinks being GLBT is wrong, or that he thinks earth is only a few thousand years old.

    I believe in God and consider myself a Christian, but that doesn’t necessarily tell you what I believe. I might believe that hell doesn’t exist, or that God is homosexual. The point is, those are MY beliefs and not those of anyone else.

    Your personal experience in life should inform your beliefs, just as it shapes your morals and your preferences. This includes deciding whether you believe in a “higher power” and/or what that “higher power” is defined to be. No one should decide that for you.

  • Pat Duffy

    A Gay Christian is no different than a Gay Republican, someone to be pitied but not punished unless they push their Evil…

  • TomMc

    Being a gay Christian is like being a gay Republican.

  • TomMc

    @Pat Duffy: ^ Seems we thought that at the same time???

  • MikeE

    @TomMc: and you both thought wrong.

  • MikeE

    It seems that the ONLY Christians that have a problem are the Americans.

    Which countries allow same-sex marriage?

    Argentina (largely Christian)
    Belgium (largely Christian)
    Canada (largely Christian)
    Iceland (largely Christian)
    The Netherlands (largely Christian)
    Norway (largely Christian)
    Portugal (largely Christian)
    Spain (largely Christian)
    South Africa (largely Christian)
    Sweden (largely Christian)

    Wow! all those Christian countries are so anti gay… NOT!

    It’s just American born-again Christians that are so fucked up that they can’t accept anything outside their narrow view of what they THINK the Bible says.

    The only place I’ve seen as much blatant HATRED as in this thread was at an American Republican anti-gay rally..

    Reading this thread makes me ashamed to be gay! You’re intolerant and hateful.

  • jcknck

    all these comments are horribly ironic. a lot of people are posting about how christianity is pure evil. that’s exactly what Rev. Heath is saying we should stop. look, it doesn’t help our cause to create a larger divide between religion and homosexuality. we should be embracing those religious people who will accept us and give us the rights we deserve instead of vilifying a huge group of people because of the loud mouths that do actually hate us.

  • TomMc

    @MikeE: I meant in that both are vilified MikeE. Is that wrong?

  • Miss Understood

    This sounds like claptrap to me. You have the freedom to have your beliefs and I have the freedom to think and say that they are stupid. This is not bigotry or bullying. You sound like Sarah Palin who thinks everyone who challanges her statements is attacking her.Or, the Catholic Church who thinks that everyone who disagrees with their political lobbying is “Catholic bashing”.

    No one is trying to pass laws to restrict your beliefs. There is no epidemic of people being beaten up or fired from their jobs for Christian beliefs in the United States. If this bullying exists please give examples, link to some articles, etc.

    This trend of calling everything “bullying” is very disrespectful to actual victims.

  • John Blatzheim

    @Miss Understood: First of all the article was talking specifically about gay Christians, not Christians in general. And if you need examples of gay Christians getting bashed after reading all these comments, well that’s just sad.

    And you know what, you do have a right to believe my faith is stupid. All I’m asking is that you express that skepticism in a respectful and intelligent manner. Calling other people’s beliefs stupid, idiotic, childish, deluded etc. is incredibly disrespectful. If your skeptical about certain claims of a faith group then talk about those things in a respectful manner, have a dialogue and maybe you’ll find that even if you don’t agree with them you’ll walk away better able to understand their point of view. As a former atheist with lots of atheist friends I know that this kind of dialogue is possible, I have it all the time, so why is it so difficult for some in the queer community to do?

  • Riker

    The gay vs Christian problem boils down to the inhumanity and bullying by many Christians in our country. Other gay people of faith (Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, et al) don’t have the same problems because, by and large, there is little viciousness from these group regarding gay issues (Hasidic/ultra orthodox Jews being an exception). The Christians we see trotted out by the media after every minor gay victory are obnoxious pitbulls foaming at the mouth at how sinful and evil we gay people are; so is there any wonder that in simplistic America, this is what Christianity is deemed to be? Until mainline and progressive Christians get louder and more forceful with these bullies and their crosses, the Christian Right will remain the ugly face that we are presented with. BTW, I’m an out, progressive minister who follows the loving philosophy of the great teacher Jesus, but I want nothing to do with the hateful garbage that his so-called followers espouse.

  • Hyhybt

    Something at least to consider: by declaring all Christians to be the enemy, you’re making it harder for quite a lot of people who would like to be supportive to do so; not just gay Christians, up against the same artificially contrived choice between God and orientation that the anti-gay Christians push, but also literally millions of straight allies, whether in affirming churches, or in others working for change, or elsewhere.

  • Mike in Asheville

    @Dave: Totally agree; but I do have a caveat to add: we need as many cross-overs as we can get. As national polls reveal, more and more fellow Americans are crossing-over from anti-gay to acceptance — national, a slim majority now supports marriage-equality, and that huge change is because former enemies are becoming supporters.

    Example: Barry Goldwater, known as “Mr. Conservative” longtime senator from Arizona (held the seat now held by McCain) and 1964 GOP Presidential candidate (against LBJ) has his namesake grandson come out to him. Goldwater becomes a supporter of equality (the retired Goldwater spoke out against DADT and DOMA).

    We need more people, such as Goldwater, who can and will evolve their opinions.

    Naturally, and “just in case” it is also important to heed the warning President Kennedy gave (I quote Kennedy from memory, might not be exact): “Always be willing to forgive your enemies; but never forget their names.”

  • CJ


    “Reading this thread makes me ashamed to be gay! You’re intolerant and hateful.”

    I agree. The comments within this thread prove the article’s point. Many in the LGBT community espouse tolerance and respect YET only give it out selectively. Many of the comments in this thread truly are hateful, intolerant, biased and even ignorant. Like has been said, many progressive Christians in the USA support LGBT equality AND there are even conservative Christians out there that are “against” homosexuality and yet still favor LGBT equality when it comes to legal rights, getting the government out of people’s bedrooms, etc.

  • Ogre Magi

    What do you want to bet Reverend Emily C. Heath is that cunt Cassandra that used to post here?

  • Mike in Asheville

    @Tantalus: I like your post and interesting ideas and concepts. You even reference O.W.Holmes (to me I would have given the credit, but that is small). Also, I have had the same thought for decades that you write about — the similarity between communism and fundamentalism, well done.

    You do make a point that is a bit self-contradictory: You wrote: “I also wonder how the crusades, wars of religion etc would have gone if the participants had access to modern weaponry and the capabilities of the modern industrial state.” I know you mean modern as today; but don’t forget, in the moment, the Crusading Christian Europeans did employ the use of the most modern to date weaponry against the Muslims. It should not be any wonder as to why Muslims and Arab cousins are so dubious about American/European involvement in their lands. For centuries, non-Muslims have attacked, sacked, raped, stolen human and natural resources denying the locals of resources that belong to them. And we among others still to this day TAKE their oil and give so little.

  • Mike in Asheville

    @MikeE: @118: Well done. Cheers.

  • jonny

    Wow… after reading these comments I can honestly say I never realized there was so much INTOLERANCE in the gay community.

    Sad really. Believe what you like but let’s stop calling other peoples beliefs wrong.

    Not a ‘christian’ but have no issue if my neighbour is one as long as their beliefs are not forced upon me. And vice versa.

  • Ganondorf

    The martyr complex is a sacrament amongst christians, whether they be gay or other. This self-important, delusional supernaturalist can’t help but imagine herself as her own personal jesus (aren’t they all?) in perceiving threats to the “spiritual path” she has chosen, imagining enemies besting the “godly way” from all angles (gay Judases, no doubt, coming to…remind her of how irrational and silly supernatural belief is) dressed up in twenty first century approved rhetoric as the claim that unwarranted supernatural beliefs that are implicated in causing harm shouldn’t be criticized because it hurts the feelings of the irrational who subscribe to them. No clearer sign of that than this woman’s hand wringing false victimhood in defense of the reasonable criticisms mounted against irrational and bigoted beliefs. Does it matter that many lesbian and gay irrational religionists aren’t homophobic? Do people realize that a “fundamentalist” of any faith is simply a person who other people of that faith disagree with about interpretations of a holy book? Not at all. How many bad peanuts does have to encounter before concluding the jar is bad? The mere possibility of this woman’s supernatural beliefs being used to (and in innumerable cases actually doing the dirty work of justifying atrocity) bring about endless human suffering is enough to distance oneself from what amounts to an “understanding” of the world and life before knowledge of it existed. That potential is very real.

    How impressive. And have you noticed that the religious of this ilk never even bother justifying their false beliefs in supernatural fictions anymore. That is practically regarded as impossible even by them. They admit that they cannot ground their beliefs in imaginary friends in reasoned argumentation. Instead, we get scolding blowholes like this trying to silence extremely reasonable criticism of primitive prescientific beliefs about how the world works, that are often used to justify bigotry and intolerance (whether that be from muslims, christians or jews) by warping the first amendment to preclude such criticism or whining about how mean it is to expose frauds and demonstrably false beliefs for exactly what they are: rubbish. It’s so hard being a christian in a christian nation, isn’t it? So much bigotry to put up with when practically everyone else around you is a christian.

  • inoits2

    @jonny: Amen bro! Gays plead for tolerance but many of us don’t give it. I am actually surprised you never realized it. Until we try to see other points of view we won’t get too far.

    I even try to understand the anti-marriage crowd’s point of view. I actually felt sorry for the town clerk Laura Fotusky that resigned from her job. She had to follow the law and did the right thing to resign. But the word bigot or worse is so easy to throw at people, we expect people to understand us but we don’t try to see their point of view. Understanding their view point doesn’t mean that they are right, it just means that we can continue to have a conversation to perhaps convince them to reassess their assumptions.

    I felt that screaming at her and calling her name was pretty nasty and counter productive. If I were her I would abhor gay people even more. She was raised to fear god and follow her teachings whether right or wrong. It doesn’t give her the right to harm our community but It is our duty to help her open their heart and mind. I personally despise the word “bigot”. It’s a catchall phrase for anyone that doesn’t agree with us.

  • Ganondorf

    It’s so hard to be gay and christian in the u.s., isn’t it? Not just gay, but gay and christian. As if the gay part wasn’t the entire reason it’s hard. Almost as tough as being gay in the u.s.–another tough row to hoe. Try being a gay christian (or even a christian) in Egypt, Iran, or Saudi Arabia. Then you’d have something to complain about, but no indulgent, good feeling multi-culti middle class “left wing” prick blog to whinge on about how you’re being “discriminated against” by those big bad atheist barbarians who happen to be gay. Losers.

  • Not Shocked At All

    It doesn’t even startle me a little that gay people are so unaccepting of people of faith. Gay people are just that. People. We all have our flaws and intolerance and hatred is a part of all people.

    When I first accepted I was gay, I turned to the gay community in my city for support and acceptance only to find that they were just as unaccepting and bigoted as the conservative group of people I grew up in.

    Gays calling straights breeders, with contempt. Gays calling people of faith all sorts of vile and contemptuous names. Gays belittling almost anyone who did not meet up to their standards and beliefs. Yes, BELIEFS.

    I don’t care if you are religious or not, you believe in something. Atheist BELIEVE there is no god and this life is it. Agnostics BELIEVE there is some sort of higher power. Most religious people BELIEVE in some sort of god. Everyone BELIEVES something.

    What bothers me the most is when I hear the LGBT communities and groups screaming for acceptance and not giving it in return. I don’t care if you are a Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, Atheist, Agnostic, or one of a hundred other belief systems; I don’t believe anyone has the right to attack other people for what they believe in. It is beneath us as humans beings. Especially those of us that are gay.

    How can we say that we are any better than others people when we behave just as hatefully as they do.

    Those of you attacking each other in this response section should be ashamed. Any group whether they were born the way they are or not; if they want acceptance from the world, then start by giving it. If you can’t forgive, then at least be silent.

    Those of you gays attacking people of faith, especially other gays, only fuel the hatred and disdain of those religious people attacking you. It is a vicious circle. Those of you of faith attacking gays that don’t believe the way you do are violating your own faith. Who are you to judge?

    Bottom line, all the name calling and hatred spewed back and forth here is senseless, stupid and accomplishes nothing.

  • inoits2

    @Not Shocked At All: I agree except in one point. Gays of faith are not attacking the Atheists, I am the only one even close to attacking them. They quickly fall into name calling and pointed language. The rabid Atheists write long screeds to explain the non-existence of god and the justification for their hatred of gay believers. I suppose these long winded rants are supposed to convince us but unfortunately they all have very off-putting and over-the-top angry tones. If you read the gay believer’s comments you will find them to be generally polite and mostly an appeal to be understood.

  • Ganondorf


    I have yet to see you defend your faith ever. It’s always this empty “I’m old and cranky” complainy pantsing about others not reading Plato (I have, you ain’t got a leg to stand on. The euthyphro dilemma isn’t in a dialogue written by the apostle Paul) or not getting logic or the arguments you never make or reveal any knowledge of whatsoever. I do understand logic. A hell of a lot better than you do, I’m confident. Where’s the argument that magically substantiates your faith in the magical/supernatural? Don’t tell me to read Aquinas or the modern apologetics and defenses, either. That doesn’t establish your claims. And I have, and remain unpersuaded. Make your case for the legitimacy of supernatural belief instead of these “I’m old and don’t understand the world anymore” accusations and insults. Use logic, not ad hom, or logic AND ad hom, but try to use logic.

    Props to queerty for getting the page hits on this obligatory “religion is an topic of interest!” post. Joe Jervis would be proud.

  • Not Shocked At All

    @inoits2: LOL. I agree with you that the gays of faith are generally not the ones doing the attacking here, but many (especially you) have resorted to name calling. In itself is a form of attack and not acceptable in my opinion. I will agree after re-looking at the posts above that the general full-fledged attacks have not been from those professing faith.

    But tell me. Whatever happened to polite debate and agreeing to disagree?

  • John Blatzheim

    I love all the comments demanding that gay people of faith defend that faith here. Apologetics is an incredibly complex and deep field, and a full defense of my, or anyone else’s, faith is not at all something that can be done here. If you’re really interested go read some of the great thinkers who were also people of faith, or go read any of the innumerable books on apologetics in your local library.

    But the point we people of faith are trying to make here is not that you must accept our beliefs, it’s that attacking and vilifying us is disrespectful and counter productive. I fully understand that much of my faith is based on personal, subjective experience and cannot be defended in the same way that a scientific theory can. That’s not the point though, the point is that I have a right to my belief, and it reflects incredibly poorly on you when you viciously disparage and attack me and those like me simply for holding to our faith.

    And again why is this so incredibly difficult for the queer community? I used to be an atheist, most of my friends are atheists, I love talking theology and philosophy and do so on a regular basis, often with people who strongly disagree with me. Yet it is only in the queer community that I get called deluded, stupid, childish etc. I get that the Church, and particularly the Christian Church, has hurt many of us. I myself have been at the receiving end of many fundamentalist’s bigoted bile. But I don’t let that stop me from having reasonable, respectful and intelligent dialogue with those willing to treat me respectfully. Is it so much to ask the same of my fellow LGBT brothers and sisters?

  • inoits2

    @Not Shocked At All: I am all for it agreeing to disagree. I am not religious but I despise elitist Atheists that pick on others. I have a tendency to use names when they are thrown at me, I know I can’t help it but I love to lower myself to their level.

  • Kamuriie

    @Not Shocked At All: You’re mixing up colloquial and technical terms, and you’re incorrect about some of your definitions.

    “Belief” and “faith,” in the context of religion, is the support of ideas without evidence backing them up. Everyone has “belief” in that they “believe” certain things. However, some people’s belief is based on empirical observation and reality, and other people’s is based on religious faith.

    “Atheism” is slightly more complicated, because many people use the word colloquially, to mean that they simply do not believe in a higher power. Many of those people are either completely non-religious and don’t give it much thought, or are actually agnostic and don’t care about the distinction. Some people purposefully use the dictionary definition, to indicate that in their opinion, there ARE no higher powers.

    “Agnostics BELIEVE there is some sort of higher power.” That is not correct under any mainstream definition of agnosticism. Agnostics refuse to acknowledge the existence or non-existence of higher powers, because there is currently no way to scientifically test for their existence, and no empirical evidence that they exist.

    It’s been pointed out numerous times above that people don’t have problems with religious gays who practice their faith humbly and personally. The majority of hostility towards the religious stems from religious people’s efforts to subjugate the rest of humanity with their misguided, Bronze Age belief system that has no scientific basis.

  • Ganondorf


    or anywhere, apparently. The burden of proof rests on the person making the claim. That would be the religious making positive claims about the existence of imaginary friends and things that only they can see with their seer stones, magic bones, and entrail readings. The philosophy of religion is complex at times. I highly doubt you have even a working knowledge of the themes and arguments of christian apologetics, know the difference between an apology and a defence. Is that any reason not to back up your claims? How about some great thinkers who aren’t people of faith (like most of them)?

    But seriously, to conflate reasonable criticism of religious faith (irrationality) with bigotry because it forces you to acknowledge that you haven’t a single positive reason for faith other than that it gives you good feewings while having a demonstrably limitless ability to cause needless suffering isn’t a good reason to believe or to discontinue freely criticizing bad thinking. Hurt feelings aren’t a good reason to perpetuate harmful lies, nor do they make false statements true or even argue for the possibility of religious beliefs. And no one is denying you your right to belief in falsity and superstition. No one. So it is ALL ABOUT hurt feewings by making your uncomfortable with your irrationality.

    And you admit that your faith is groundless. You admit that there isn’t any evidence for any of your beliefs in the supernatural (and that there can’t be, as a point of meaning), and that any criticism of your admittedly groundless, irrational beliefs is vicious bigotry of the highest order. You don’t see the irony in this?

    And if we’re going to talk about real discrimination, atheists in christian america have it far worse than non-atheists do (e.g., a gay man will be voted president of the united states before an atheist will), and atheist gay people are far more discriminated against than christian or supernaturalist gays. That’s just a point of fact. Where is our whinging piece in a middle class “left wing” prick blog decrying the discrimination we experience?

  • christopher di spirito

    139 comments on this thread and not one self-professed “gay Christian” has come forward to denounce their ideological brother in Norway, Anders Behring Breivik, who slaughtered nearly hundred innocent people — mostly teenagers, to maintain the cultural and religious purity of Norway?

    139 comments on this thread and not one self-professed “gay Christian” has come forward to denounce their spiritual leader in the Vatican, the former Hitler youth member and current leader of the 2 billion strong Roman Catholic Church, Pope Benedict XVI, who never misses a chance to issue an edict denouncing gay people and marriage equality?

    No wonder self-professed “gay Christians” are angry and conflicted. They really want and need to be part of the flock but in their hearts, each time they’re intimate with a same sex partner, they know they’re in violation of church doctrine. The guilt eats away at them like a metastatic cancer, destroying a little more of their soul every day.

    How sad.

  • WillBFair

    @Ganondorf: Nice use of non issues to change the subject. And nice subject, object shifts. They made me dizzy. You’re almost as good as Christopher Hitchens. It’s typical of all your writing. It’s jam packed with rhetorical games. You can’t tell the difference between funamentalists and liberal christians. Yet you tell me you know logic. Please.
    I’m not interested in your person atheism. And my own faith is none of your business. You probably wouldn’t understand it anyway. It’s about charity work and living greenly and defending the oppressed.
    But that’s all irrellevant. The point I make over and over, which the radical atheists constantly sidestep, is that their hatred for liberal christians is a stratgic error. These are some of the strongest allies we have, and allienating them is not smart.

  • Kamuriie

    @WillBFair: That’s got to be the most delusional post I’ve seen on Queerty in over a year.

  • inoits2

    @christopher di spirito: As you must realize all Christians are not extreme fundamentalists. Why lump them all together. We all know that all gays are not aids-ridden druggies.

    Discussing the Norway tragedy would be mixing the issues. All human beings regardless of religious denomination are capable of committing atrocities. I have friends in Europe that see their culture being besieged by Islam, no denying that isn’t true. However, any impressionable mentally ill person can be drawn to violence by listening to extreme right wing commentary.

    What you fail to understand is that Christianity is about Christ and his teachings. Everything else is an addition and can be discounted. Christ did not chastise homosexuals. Many people are horrible and will use any excuse to harm others but it has nothing to do with Christianity, it has to do with people ignoring the teachings and latching onto the additions.

    I am not sure that gay xstians are conflicted and angry. I think it is Atheists that are conflicted and angry as evidenced by the comments. Every time they deny the existence of god they know deep down it may be true and the conflict instills fear in them. They in turn lash out with militant rhetoric. They feel guilty and eats away at them like a cancer causing them to become bitter pills. They don’t realize that the burden of life might be lightened by letting go of the idea we are alone and helpless.

  • Ganondorf


    So, your claim that atheists don’t understand beliefs (organized or not) in supernatural entities (how many? A billion beings of which a more perfect entity cannot be conceived? Gotta have lots of faith in planet/team god, there. How many pixies are in the doorway?) predicated on their misunderstanding of logic is a private matter between you and your invisible pal? That’s not how logic works. And religious beliefs are justified because all criticism is a rhetorical game? Heaven forbid logic be used to assess belief systems. What a sham that is. How demeaning to expect others to be able to express themselves coherently and justify their assertions, accusations, and beliefs. Unlike religious faith, which isn’t a warped, knotted stillborn deformity of logical inconsistency that gets off the ground through manipulation and rhetorical sleight of hand (an aborted fetus on puppet strings). No, when it’s religion, the games (and THE game is called ad hoc, and can be played on a rube goldberg obstacle course) take on an olympic dignity where anything can be explained away or countenanced (except rationality and logic), and any criticism (of beliefs, mind you) is racist bigotry.

    “It’s about charity work and living greenly and defending the oppressed.
    But that’s all irrellevant.”

    You’re like ed begley jr. Living greenly by powering your house on a treadmill attached to a generator, and composting for the future…for god. “I’m saving the planet! How dare you criticize me by expecting me to justify anything I say or do! Out of the way! Got lives to save posting thinky thoughts on the internetz!”. Sadly, it is all irrelevant, but not according to me. You say so yourself, for the obvious implication is that without your faith, you couldn’t or wouldn’t do that stuff. So that stuff doesn’t really matter to you, your faith does. You care more about it than charity work or that obnoxious useless bourgeoisie environmentalist crap (“I’m saving the planet! I recycle my soda bottles! I’m above reproach!”). I know lots of people like that. All of those terrible things they did to others in their misspent youths need to be made up for somehow so they don’t go to hell.

    And the difference between a fundamentalist and liberal christian comes down to what, exactly? Disagreement on interpretations of the bible. Nothing civilized can resolve that. At least the “fundamentalists” (and you’re just a fundamentalist to them) will admit it. God revealed his nonexistence to me in a revelation.

  • Miss Understood

    @John Blatzheim: I still do not see any evidence of any bashing. People are not “bashing” or bullying you by criticizing you. Please provide some documentation of a gay Christian who has been beaten up, harassed, or fired by a gay non-Christian. A link to a reputable news source maybe?

    Our country is chock full of people trying to pass laws limiting our freedoms in the name of Christianity. I see no evidence of this happening in reverse. Christians came to this country seeking religious freedom. They got it.

  • Aaron

    @christopher di spirito:

    145 comments and not one self professed “gay Atheist” has come forward to denounce their ideological brothers across the world, who murdered millions to maintain their atheistic-communist agenda.

    145 comments and not one self professed “gay Atheist” has come forward to denounce their top atheist leader (aside from OMG RICHARD DAWKINS!!1!!11!) Christopher Hitchen; supporter of genocide and ardent Marxist-Leninist who believes Lenin and Trotsky’s persecution and mass murder of millions of Russian Orthodox Christians was justified.

    No wonder self professed “gay Atheists” are angry and conflicted. The really want and need to be part of the flock, but in their hearts, each time they do, well, ANYTHING, they know they subconsciously supporting Communism. The guilt doesn’t eat away at them, because they’re evil soulless atheists without a god! Muahahahaha!

    …. It’s really sad I had to make that (ever so sarcastic) point again to you. You’ve proven yourself a true netizen, my friend, with bizarre logic dDespite claiming to be logical) and your earlier invocation of Godwin’s Law, which, if it in itself wasn’t enough, you’ve certainly proven yourself unworthy of argument with that recent tidbit of wisdom.

  • Ganondorf

    “Christians came to this country seeking religious freedom.”

    Quite the opposite. The Puritans came to this continent to escape religious freedom. Thank god our country wasn’t founded on christian principles.

  • John Blatzheim

    @Miss Understood: When did this become a ‘whose more persecuted’ game? Did anyone suggest that gay Christians are beaten or murdered for being Christian? I sure didn’t. You continually miss the point, which is that the hostile intolerance many in the gay community have towards faith is destructive and counter-productive. And frankly I wasn’t aware that any group had to prove a certain level of oppression before demanding to be treated with some modicum of respect and dignity.

  • Ganondorf

    “which is that the hostile intolerance many in the gay community have towards faith is destructive and counter-productive”

    Hostile intolerance? Because there’s no reason why gay people would be hostile and intolerant to people of faith and religion. No reason. But you can’t be that stupid, so you’re saying that the active persecution of gay people specifically by religion and religious doesn’t justify being hostile and critical of religion. So that religion has largely caused and continues to impose second class citizenship of gays and lesbians is no reason to be hostile and critical of religion. That religion causes violence against gays and lesbians, by psychological and physical, is no reason for gays to be hostile and critical of religion. One is left wondering what it would take to be justifiably hostile and critical of religion (or anything) given that those things aren’t, according to you.

    And this entire thread is dedicated to a christian persecution complex singling it out as bigotry (and from atheists, of course), when clearly the bigotry that gay atheists experience is at least demonstrably greater. Yet interestingly enough, we don’t hear about that–only the damage that angry gay atheists are doing which has yet to be established.

  • John Blatzheim


    “The burden of proof rests on the person making the claim.”

    You’re missing my point. I don’t want to have a long and involved debate about apologetics here. Whether my faith is defensible or not is not what is at issue here, the way many in the gay community treat their Christian brothers and sisters is. If you want a detailed explanation of the many ways Christians defend their faith just google “Christian apologetics”, but don’t attack me for not wanting to do your homework for you.

    “claims about the existence of imaginary friends and things that only they can see with their seer stones, magic bones, and entrail readings.”

    As someone whose boyfriend is a neo-Pagan who actually practices divination your attempt to ridicule me by comparing my faith to beliefs you assume I would see as ridiculous and ignorant falls a little flat. I may not understand what draw those practices have, but I give the same respect to their practitioners that I demand for myself.

    “I highly doubt you have even a working knowledge of the themes and arguments of christian apologetics, know the difference between an apology and a defence.”

    You don’t know me so please refrain from presuming knowledge about what I do and do not understand. Kthnx!

    “How about some great thinkers who aren’t people of faith (like most of them)?”

    How about them? Did I say they didn’t exist? Did I try to discredit or ridicule them? Does their existence somehow negate the existence of great thinkers who are also people of faith?

    Further, your assertion that most great thinkers in history were/are atheists is demonstrable false. I listed a litany of some of the great scientists who were also Christians in an earlier comment, one of them being Francis Bacon, considered by many to be the father of the scientific method which so many atheists assume disproves god’s existence.

    “But seriously, to conflate reasonable criticism of religious faith (irrationality) with bigotry because it forces you to acknowledge that you haven’t a single positive reason for faith other than that it gives you good feewings while having a demonstrably limitless ability to cause needless suffering isn’t a good reason to believe or to discontinue freely criticizing bad thinking. Hurt feelings aren’t a good reason to perpetuate harmful lies, nor do they make false statements true or even argue for the possibility of religious beliefs. And no one is denying you your right to belief in falsity and superstition. No one. So it is ALL ABOUT hurt feewings by making your uncomfortable with your irrationality.”

    There is a significant difference between rational, measured criticism and what I’ve seen here. Referring to all Christians as deluded, lumping all people of faith in with the most extremists and calling a person’s deity an “imaginary friend” or “sky daddy” are all examples of the incredible lack of any respect in the dialogue here thus far. And that’s not to mention the ridiculous questionable assumptions your (and others here) arguments are based on. You continually deride religion as the sole source of evil in the world while denying outright the possibility that some people are just evil and their particular faith or lack thereof has little if anything to do with the evil they perpetrate. I’ve yet to see any of the atheists here seriously deal with the fact, pointed out by many here, that plenty of atrocities have been committed by atheists in the name of their belief systems and world views.

    “And you admit that your faith is groundless. You admit that there isn’t any evidence for any of your beliefs in the supernatural (and that there can’t be, as a point of meaning), and that any criticism of your admittedly groundless, irrational beliefs is vicious bigotry of the highest order. You don’t see the irony in this?”

    I admitted no such thing. I said that my faith is rooted in subjective experience. More specifically I would say that my belief in any one particular religion is subjective and more difficult to validate objectively. On the other hand I think there is plenty of reason to conclude that belief in some sort of higher power is logically justified. The “first cause” problem itself suggests this in my opinion. But again, I don’t really want to get into an apologetics debate here as that is not the point of the article.

    And again I did not equate all criticism of my faith with “vicious bigotry of the highest order.” I’m not sure how many times we’re going to have to go over this before you all get it: I have several atheist friends and acquaintances. I enjoy engaging in philosophical debates with them about my faith. I treat their beliefs with respect and in return they refrain from mocking and ridiculing mine. Why can’t you all here do the same? How hard is it to have a debate about faith without relying on ad hominems and blatant attempts to mock, demean and ridicule faith?

    “And if we’re going to talk about real discrimination, atheists in christian america have it far worse than non-atheists do (e.g., a gay man will be voted president of the united states before an atheist will), and atheist gay people are far more discriminated against than christian or supernaturalist gays.”

    I actually agree with you. Having identified as an atheist for sometime I am well aware of the discrimination atheists face. But as I mentioned in the post above, how does that discrimination justify hatred and intolerance of people of faith? I get that, as the oppressed, it is often tempting to be just as oppressive in return. But doing so only stifles dialogue and prevents any real progress from being made.

  • Ganondorf

    “I don’t want to have a long and involved debate about apologetics here”

    Sure sure. Which is why you criticizing who are opposed to faith, and use reasonable arguments to sustain their opposition is pointless from your perspective. You aren’t interested in debating, which is why you claiming that any criticism of faith amounts to a hostile intolerance isn’t an argument. It’s an accusation which you can’t be bothered to substantiate. I don’t even know why you could bothered to contribute at all to this discussion, as you really haven’t.

    Now this misplaced accusation I haven’t done my homework or learned anything about christian apologetics because I’m not a christian and argue against religious faith is something a small child might get away with, but it addresses nothing I’ve said, and doesn’t even begin to give any point you think you have (which is becoming increasingly illusory which each successive post) a shred of plausibility.

    “As someone whose boyfriend is a neo-Pagan who actually practices divination your attempt to ridicule me by comparing my faith to beliefs you assume I would see as ridiculous and ignorant falls a little flat. I may not understand what draw those practices have, but I give the same respect to their practitioners that I demand for myself.”

    Okay, so maybe no to the entrail readings…ha ha ha. Are you this pig ignorant in real life? You have addressed nothing I’ve written. Now stop stomping your wittle feetsies in outrage that your feewings have been hurt elsewhere, because I’ve sympathy for your “plight”.

  • Ganondorf

    Fucking christ. I’ve LITTLE sympathy for your plight. That’s important to clarify my opeeenions on the internet so that they’re further misunderstood by trolls. LITTLE SYMPATHY FOR YOUR PLIGHT. That’s actually a euphemism, for I have none. You aren’t a discriminated against, disenfranchised class as a christian. Sorry. With regard to your christian faith, you are a member of the majority. End of discussion. And you are clearly incapable (and unwilling) of distinguishing reasoned and reasonable criticism of faith from hostile intolerance, as evidenced throughout this thread; but specifically, in your refusal to acknowledge that christian/religious discrimination and oppression of gays and lesbians does at least justify their so-called “hostile intolerance of intolerance,” which by your blinkered estimation is “intolerable” (hand wrangerin’ buffonery at its most refined). Until there are religious based heterosexual to homosexual reorientation facilities, blood libels, violence and broad based political and social support for your institutional discrimination as a christian by gay atheists, do me the favor of shutting your pie hole…just the shutting the fuck up, you FUCKING MORON! (Now you can flail around and go off about being discriminated against for being a moron).

  • Ganondorf

    Apparently one of the ways (one of the most popular ways) christians defend their faith is to accuse anyone who criticizes it of being hostile, intolerant, or bigoted. Stupid christians, anyway. Is that redundant?

  • Andrew

    I keep seeing use of the word “supernatural” as if a person’s belief structure is an exercise in Imagination-Land. Obviously there are plenty of people out there who pick their beliefs like a raffle ticket, but some people actually base their beliefs on their personal experiences.
    Why should they have to explain or “prove” their beliefs to anyone but themselves? If you believe jumping up and down is healthy for you, I don’t demand a clinical study. If you believe that you are homosexual, I don’t demand a demonstration.
    There are some things that people believe that aren’t necessarily based on something tangible, but are based on their own personal experience, logic, and understanding.
    The territory of confrontation, attack, and defense should be confined to where religion is used as a power tool.
    The Norway bomber/gunman might call himself a Christian, but I believe he is deluding himself. He is no more a Christian than George Michael is a virgin.
    The Catholic “church” might call themselves the church that Jesus established, but I believe that they are lying. Jesus Christ never established a church. He simply said that we should follow in his footsteps. He never demanded allegiance to some guy in a funny hat in Rome.
    What is with all this whining about bigotry? Demand respect for yourself, and you will get it, bigots be damned. As GLBT people, we should have thick enough skin to state our case and move on. If you feel threatened by that, maybe your case isn’t that strong to begin with.
    Apologies for rambling.

  • Andrew

    And before we say that being a homosexual or jumping up and down doesn’t hurt anyone, guess what? Neither does calling yourself a Christian.
    What does hurt is when people twist words and use something arbitrary as an excuse for war, power, discrimination, genocide, etc.
    Confusing the act of calling yourself a Christian and the acts of organized religion is why we even have this debate.

  • Ganondorf

    “I keep seeing use of the word “supernatural” as if a person’s belief structure is an exercise in Imagination-Land.”

    Oh yes. A person’s religious belief structure isn’t purely the work of imagination and meme indoctrination. Obviously some people actually “see” things that other people don’t see. For example, pink elephants and mr. fuck. When they attempt to explain to others that Mr. Fuck/leprechauns really exist, they can become quite agitated by others’ stubborn refusal to look hard enough and “see” what they are “seeing”. If this annoyance becomes pathological, they can establish a religion and get tax exempt status and the respect of simpletons and crazy people alike…or, they can go on a killing spree to weed out the impure of heart, or those who don’t “see”. Often, however, these gifted “seers” end up being seen to psychiatric professionals.

  • Andrew

    @Ganondorf: I’m thoroughly impressed by your ability to completely miss my entire point. What do you believe in? Certainly it’s based on something besides pink elephants. I’m not talking specifically about religion.
    I’m not going to debate the virtues or detriments of tax-exempt religion with you. It’s completely irrelevant to everything I mentioned. Talk to your Congressman, or someone who could actually do something about it.

  • Ganondorf


    Oh, I’m sorry. I thought you had said that some people’s religious/supernatural belief systems weren’t completely made up and fictional, like a imagination-land. You do agree that imagination-land isn’t real, right? Maybe some of them hear things, like voices in their head telling them to do things. Telling them that they have demons running all through them. Maybe they think those voices in their heard are god telling them to do things. I agree that those people do exist, and before we understood what schizophrenia was, we would terrible things to these people OR base our entire lives on their ramblings. Thankfully, those days are over. Don’t you agree?

    Also, spiritual experiences can have an entirely naturalistic neuroscientific explanation that is actually true. Oh wait, they do.

  • Ogre Magi

    @John Blatzheim: You are Cassandra aren’t you?

  • null

    god damn you people will argue meaningless arguments for eternity won’t you

  • Steve

    I get irritated when people lump “all Christians” together as being “anti-gay”.
    And I get irritated when people lump “all gays” together as being “non-Christian.

    Visit an MCC Church, every Sunday, for a couple months.

    You will learn a few things: some Christians are Gay; some Gays are Christian; and there really is no conflict between the two.

    The fact that some bigots are Christian, and some Christians are bigots, also should not be a surprise.

  • John Blatzheim


    “Which is why you criticizing who are opposed to faith, and use reasonable arguments to sustain their opposition is pointless from your perspective.”

    First of all, go back to grammar school. Damn reading your posts is annoying.

    Secondly, and for the last freaking time, I DO NOT see criticism of my faith as pointless. I see mockery that is blatantly aimed at being as offensive as possible as pointless. You refuse to see the distinction, so be it.

    “you claiming that any criticism of faith amounts to a hostile intolerance isn’t an argument.”

    Again, no. I have said no such thing. I have repeatedly and clearly stated that criticism in and of itself is not intolerance. But again, there is a difference between honest criticism and snide mockery. You seem to choose snide mockery again and again.

    “Now this misplaced accusation I haven’t done my homework or learned anything about christian apologetics because I’m not a christian and argue against religious faith is something a small child might get away with, but it addresses nothing I’ve said, and doesn’t even begin to give any point you think you have (which is becoming increasingly illusory which each successive post) a shred of plausibility.”

    All I did was point out that it’s a little ridiculous to expect me, or anyone else, to mount a full and reasoned defense of their faith here. I then gently suggested that if you were interested in what such a defense would look like you might want to do your own research into the topic and avoid using my refusal to engage you in such a debate as proof that no such debate is even possible. I never claimed that you knew nothing about apologetics, though you did claim that about me.

    Having trouble getting my point? Let me spell it out for you. While I welcome criticism and respectful debate about faith I do not welcome mockery and ad hominem attacks. Calling believers deluded idiots and sarcastically referring to their god/gods as “sky daddy” and “imaginary friend” are not arguments, they’re plain mockery and nothing more. But whatever, I’m sure you’ll just ignore this explanation too…

    “Okay, so maybe no to the entrail readings…ha ha ha. Are you this pig ignorant in real life? You have addressed nothing I’ve written. Now stop stomping your wittle feetsies in outrage that your feewings have been hurt elsewhere, because I’ve sympathy for your ‘plight’.”

    Are you this much of a condescending, know-it-all prick in real life?

  • Ganondorf

    “Secondly, and for the last freaking time, I DO NOT see criticism of my faith as pointless.”

    Look, clearly you’re incapable of responding intelligently to any of the many reasonable criticisms that have been made against theism and christianity. I’m pretty confident that it’s more than a lack of will. Instead, like the woman who wrote this article, you have consistently classed all criticism of faith and christianity as bigotry and mockery. You are simply not to be taken seriously on these matters. Nothing here is bigotry or “hate speech”. Hurt feelings doesn’t mean that you’re an oppressed minority. And believing in things that you have no good reason to believe in, and cause great suffering and have the potential to cause limitless more of the same, is the definition of being delusional. “Imaginary friends” is polite given what christianity has wrought in the world, and continues to. That is more than mockery, it’s criminal.

  • Brian

    I am Baptist. I am gay. So is my partner. Both groups are just going to have to deal with it. I refuse to abandon my South, my church, or my job just because they don’t roll out the pink carpet for me.
    I have discussed the “it gets better” campaign with my pastor and told him I did not think it had. Not here (South Carolina). I do hope for the next generation, it will.

  • inoits2

    @Brian: Oh lord I feel sorry for you, I am from the south near you and left that place a long time ago. I do miss it though and will always be southern but I am not a brave soul like yourself. My gay cousin who lived in South Carolina killed himself last year thanks to all the Christian love.

  • skzip888

    Every religion from Scientology to Tibetan Buddhism to Wicca (yes, Wicca) has flirted with anti-gay edicts over the decades. Granted, they all have their unique way of trying to keep people from fucking, but Homophobia seems to be a particularly big theological crowd pleaser. To be fair, for every thousand religious people who shun you, there will always be a few Atheist ideologues who manage to be massively homophobic anyway (Ayn Rand, anyone?).

    A lot of gays will also shun you if you don’t know who Nina Hagen is.

  • zrocqs

    Thank you, Rev. Heath, for your plea for tolerance. But I must take issue with your assertion that there is parity between anti-Gay Christians and “rabid anti-faith folks”. Christians are the majority here in the U.S. In fact and in practice, most Christians are either anti-Gay or willing to allow their anti-Gay brethren to dictate the actions of their immediate community. The “rabid anti-faith folks” you refer to are, literally, a fraction (rabid) of a fraction (anti-faith) of a fraction (Queer) of the populace. There is no parity.

    Please consider the possibility that your bias clouds your judgement.

  • Ogre Magi

    I clicked on the link and saw the pic of Rev. Emily C. Heath! Woah,she has a face like a baboon’s butt crack!

  • xander

    @Aaron : The ‘atheists’ you mentioned. e.g. Mao and Stalin led rigid cults of personality with tightly defined, leader-controlled belief systems. They replaced pre-existing religious icons with their own likenesses.

    Atheists have no holy text, no leader, no pope, no archbishop. The only link is a lack of belief in god/s.

    Dawkins and his ilk don’t agree on much other than that disbelief.

    Think about it this way: the OFF button on the TV isn’t a channel. Bald isn’t a hair colour.

  • Andrew

    The gay backlash against religious homosexuals is not the same as religious intolerance of homosexuals (nor is it reverse-bigotry, nor hypocrisy). Popular religions in the U.S. have, on the whole, unquestioningly condemned homosexuality. Since the religious base their lives around texts that suggest widespread murder of gay people, it’s only logical to expect hostility on the part of the potential murder victims toward such would-be murderers. Not to say that most religious people would actually kill – they’ve settled for labeling us child-molesters and harbingers of society’s downfall.

    People are entitled to their opinions. The simple truth, however, is that, in a battle between the majority and minority, no one likes one of their own switching sides. What the religious have against gay people is a result of a few passages in books, while what the gays have against the religious is a result of the day-to-day beatings we get in school hallways and on the streets and in our homes, devastating teen suicides, unchecked damnation by passersby, and the general public’s disregard for our most basic rights (among many other things!). The religious majority has made great progress on pro-gay measures in recent years, but think about the end of slavery (not that what most gays face today is anywhere near as bad as what my ancestors experienced in 18th and 19th century America): no one would blame the newly-freed African for his contempt for slave-owners. You can’t expect any recently-persecuted minority to bestow pity upon anyone that joins their persecutors (even if that person denounces the actual persecution on a moral basis).

    While, in a perfect world, gays wouldn’t anathematize their religious brethren, our failure to meet this ideal is less the fault of the gay community, and more the fault of the religious community.

  • Hyhybt

    @Andrew: Over-generalization is the fault of those who do it.

  • Not Shocked At All

    @Kamuriie: It is pretty obvious that you were looking for something to “correct” me on in my former post thereby missing my points, but let me respond to your responses.

    You said, “However, some people’s belief is based on empirical observation and reality, and other people’s is based on religious faith.” Let’s get some definition of your terms. “‘Reality’ is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined. Reality includes everything that is and has been, whether or not it is observable or comprehensible.” If you are insisting on “reality”, the reality is that many of the beliefs held by those of religious faiths cannot be proven or disproven by anyone. Even evolution is but a theory and cannot be proven by empirical evidence. That doesn’t mean that evolution is not ‘reality’ for some people just as religions are ‘reality’ for others. Both evolution and religion are ‘realities’ depending on the individual. Neither you nor I are the quantifier of which is truth and which is not. Until you can prove or disprove either through empirical evidence with no lingering hypothesizing and complete irrefutable fact concerning everything involved, evolution and religion both can be accepted as reality. Both exist whether or not they are observable or comprehensible. In the case of religious faith, you, my friend, are not the final word on what is or is not real. Neither am I.

    There are many things that cannot be proven by “scientific” means yet most of us except them as real. Gravity is one I believe is real, but I and every scientist that has ever lived cannot prove it empirically. And while we are on scientists, there are a lot of respected scientists that have looked at what they consider the so-called “empirical evidence” of a religion or god and deemed it to be real and are people of faith because of it. Einstein, Arthur Compton and George Wald are a few scientists that come to mind.

    You are correct about the terms “Agnostic” and “Atheism”, but if that is what you were pulling from what I was trying to say, it seems you may have a problem with context. There are many people who consider themselves Atheists whether or not you personally find it to be a “colloquialism”. Regardless if they are truly agnostic or not, again, isn’t for you or I to say. So if the paragraph in my first post would have been stated, “Atheist BELIEVE there is no higher power although they are probably agnostic (see next sentence) and screwed up the definition of atheism. By mainstream definition, agnostics BELIEVE a higher power’s existence cannot be proven or disproven. Most religious people BELIEVE in some sort of god. Everyone BELIEVES something” then my point on belief would have been more valid? I don’t think so. So again, instead of gleaning my main point out of the context of my paragraph, you were just looking to correct my definitions? Lame.

    I suggest you re-read many of the posts above your reply to me and my own. Yes there are many that accept gays of faith that practice humbly. There are also just as many that attack them or belittle them for their belief systems or faith. And just because many do not attack them personally doesn’t mean that they do not feel personally attacked when others are attacking their religious beliefs. Attacking peoples’ areas of inclusions are also a personal attacks on them. Are you not personally offended when ANYONE attacks gays for what they are? I am. I am also personally offended when people in any way attack American Indians, which I am one. Do not blacks, whites, Asians, lesbians, transgenders, accordion players, the elderly, and many, many more groups not feel personally attacked when their sub-cultures are attacked?

    And yes there are those still stuck in the bronze age with their beliefs, and there are just as many who are not yet still profess faith. Again, you glossed over my point by trying to ‘educate’ me on definitions. I am quite aware of where the hostility originates, my POINT is that responding in kind does no good. It just makes us look equally hateful and often times stupid for letting them get to us.

    Honestly, it just seems so very pointless for people to correct others on literal definitions and use semantics regarding largely irrelevant mistakes or misconceptions. It is trite and petty.

    Kamuriie, you are obviously intelligent, articulate and educated. If you didn’t agree with my positions and the points I was trying to make, I would understand and agree to disagree. I don’t understand what it does for you pull petty things out of my post to “correct” that have no bearing on my position. What honest purpose did it serve?

  • xander

    @Not Shocked At All : The difference between evolution (science) and creationism (bible-derived) is that evolutionary theory is based on looking at evidence and testing hypotheses via experiments (MRSA is a good example). To put them on equal footing is a great mistake.

    Believe if you will, that world was created 6000 yrs ago and that a global flood occured (cf. Noah) but the only evidence for that stuff is myths, legends and holy books.

    The Abrahamic faiths which dominate the western world and the Middle east use that same ‘logic’ and ‘evidence’ in condemning LGBT folks. Hardly convincing, that.

  • Chad

    Well, I guess the comments section here pretty well justifies the article. Well done being awful, once again, people.

  • bbg372

    @Not Shocked At All:

    That evolution occurs is a fact. The set of explanations for the mechanism by which evolution occurs is a theory. A theory is not mere conjecture or speculation, it is a set of explanations that have been observed, tested, and the results repeated that is correctable, falsifiable, and makes predictions about the natural world and its phenomena. Evolution is actual, religious claims are not.

    It is evident that gravity is empirically true in that it universally affects all physical bodies in proportion to their mass and not differently for each individual observer. That gravity observable, demonstrable, and independently verified is proof that gravity exists. The same cannot be said of any god claims.

    Albert Einstein did not believe in god: “It was, of course, a lie what you heard about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly.” Furthermore, two legitimate examples of scientists who believe in the existence of a god is insignificant compared to the 93% of the members off the National Academy of Scientists who do not.

    Words have meanings. Agnostics who do not actively believe in the existence of a god because they do not believe that knowledge of the existence of a god is possible or do not find there is is sufficient evidence to draw a conclusion are Atheists by definition, whether they agree or not. Similarly, one with an enduring physical and psychological attraction to members of the same sex is homosexual regardless of whether he identifies as gay.

    No, we will not have to agree to disagree. You need to be corrected, because while you are entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts.

  • Adman

    @bbg372: School is in session. Well done.

  • Adman

    @Chad: Please point out the part of this woman’s sentiments towards her fellow LGBT’s that isn’t awful. Thanks in advance. You see, you get what you give, or didn’t you read your metaphysics of choice?

  • Ganondorf


    Good stuff. I’d also like to note that we have more empirical evidence for biological evolution than gravity. A minor point. Agnosticism is an epistemic position whereas atheism is a ontological/metaphysical one. And epistemology (the theory of knowledge and what it means to know) will never ever be metaphysics (the study of what exists and what it means to exist), however poorly some mix them up. Agnostics believe that one cannot KNOW whether god or gods exist. Separately, one may also be an agnostic atheist, though not a very convincing one for one has no good reason (e.g., faith) to disbelieve or believe. So one may be an agnostic atheist in a very similar (though obviously not identical) way that a toaster is an atheist (lack of belief in god or gods isn’t synonymous with atheism, for rocks and trees would be atheist, and there isn’t an inferential system in place to take a position one way or another with those things). Atheists don’t make this knowledge claim, thankfully.

  • Alex

    Heath really shouldn’t even start comparing gay people bashing other gay people to Christian shit stains bashing gay people. It’s totally different. I can get that it happens, and it makes her feel bad, but come the fuck on.

  • Ogre Magi

    @Chad: Reverend Emily C. Heath (or as I call her the dog faced woman)started all this shit!

  • Asmodeus

    Who knew there were so many anti-religious pedants in queerdom? :(

  • Dean

    First of all Jesus taught the Golden Rule that we should practice that even to our enemies and forgiveness to one another including our enemies.

    Jesus never spoke out against Homosexuality maybe not but he never spoke out against Bestiality Pedophilia Incensed did he???? Jesus loves the sinners because he knew the love God would shine through him and when he taught about God who he really was it would renew peoples minds and help them grow stronger with God which will then protect you from lies which then will renew your mind.

    It’s all in the mind people Christians need to stop listening to man and Go to God for truth only he can deliver you from addictions and he does that by the renewing of the mind.

    To say a Homosexual can’t change is to say that God has not got the power to do so.

    Seek God and he will give you the desires of your Heart, What do you desire in your heart?

    Another thing us Heterosexuals are the ones who get prosecuted by you Homosexuals for not believing what you do.

    We react the way we do sometimes because your trying to shove the born Gay theory down our throats. Born Gay Theory which by the way is false there is no scientific evidence to support your claim either, Atheists only stick up for you’s because they are Anti-Christ (Against Christ)

    Love you in the lord None the less

  • Tom Lowery

    I cannot understand treating anyone badly. However, I will say that I ALSO cannot understand the stupidity of any gay person falling in line with a group that has more usually than not done incredible harm towards gay people. If you are a member of ANY organized religious movement that supports anti-gay rhetoric or funding of anti-gay movements, then something is wrong with you. I call it “chronic, lazy, non-thinking.”

    If those who indluge in this nonsense still do not get why others are offended by these actions, then sign yourselves up for some serious THINKING sessions.

    @ Dean – Your comments betray your ignorance of FACTS. You and others like you need help and I for one would gladly support a movement to force people like you into reparative therapy. You cannot help it – you were born stupid.

  • Tom Lowery

    @bbg372: Well said. But I disagree with one thing.

    Contrary to popular belief, everyone is NOT entitled to their own opinion…If you don’t know the facts, your opinion doesn’t count.

  • Dean

    @Tom Lowery what acts are talking about exactly? reparative therapy? Why is that Tom you wanna brainwash me to lie up the way you want me to….. No thanks

  • Rich A.

    @Jayrald: Like the comment you made friend, I’ve been judged wrongly and harshly out of pure assumptions! “That guy is this or that, no he’s this” (need I go on)? Have over 110 publications, mostly non fict. some fict., poetry, some quips and quotes are my forte if you like (rather if you will friends). Blessings Friends, R.A.

  • Moramor

    It so interesting to first read the article about gay intolerance towards gay Christians and then see all the comments where people do exactly that. I, as a gay man, refuse to live in a world and society where life is just an “accident” of big bang and blind evolution. I refuse to participate in the culture that only values self gratification, and focuses on looks, image, six pack etc… Where you party so hard on drugs and alcohol that you die before you reach 40, because reaching 40 is even worse then dying as you become old, alone and unwanted and bitter. I refuse to participate in that, I refuse to be part of the cult worshiping body and worshiping self. That is just as a religion as any other, only in the end it is self destructive, it slowly consumes you from the inside and at the end you are left with nothing. So for the person who criticizing the Eucharist, I rather eat bread and wine, then do coke, Ecstasy, crystal meth and numerous other things people take weekly for their “experience”.

    In the end, gay Christians are probably closer to the early Christians then many others contemporary Christians, because we are prosecuted for our faith from both straits and gays and anything in between. So let me be Christian and Gay, and do my thing in peace! Don’t use us as scape goats for your issues.

    Oh yea, and finally, only the radical Christian right in the US does not believe in evolution. The rest of the christian world is quite comfortable with evolution guided by God. And church did not try to kill the science, as the popular myth dictates. Church fought against superstitions and occult. Most scientists from middle ages through Renascence where deeply religious and educated in religious universities of the west.

  • Tom Lowery

    @Dean: So it is okay for YOU to want to brainwash the world, eh? Why are people like you so obsessed with what other’s do in bed? Most of the time you turn out to be closet gays.

  • Dean

    @Tom Lowery: I don’t care what they do behind closed doors that’s there business. But see when it comes down to Gay Activist trying to shove there propaganda down my throat and be made feel guilty about my opinion justbecause it does not line up they way it does with theirs then it becomes a Issue. I do NOT hate Gay people. I know Gay people who are nice people. But in case you have not noticed all the increase Homosexual Story lines in Movies and mainly on TV Shows is by no accident infact people are being manipulated to accept this lifestyle as normal. I don’t enjoy doing this no no no but are many dangers to this lifestyle, STD’s mainly Aids and HIV are more commonly found in the Homosexual community than the Heterosexual Community.

    It’s Spiritual Warfare, If people want to be Gay that’s fair enough but shove lies down are throats and demand Zero Tolerance when it comes to have the same opinion as them.

    Yea that’s a myth the whole people who speak out against this lifestyle end up being closet Gays is a myth. Someone of them speak out against because Homosexuals can’t respect Heterosexuals wanting to be heterosexuals so when they hit on heterosexuals and succeed they tell them there is no turning back to confuse them and because they have not enough knowledge on the subject so the lies takeover and they have been brainwashed.

    Look up the Book After the Ball by Hunter Mandson and Marshall Kirk.

    Homosexuality is mainly promoted by the dark forces who are in high Spiritual wickedness that are in high places aka The Illuminati if one does his/her research they will find this out.

    For the very fact your trying to make me feel guilty about having a opinion, I wa snot even being nasty just shows how people get made feel guilty about not lining up the Homosexual Activist.

    And another thing all different demnoations of Christianity attack ach other, You lot need to toughen up and stop overreacting and making something out of nothing just because they don’t agree with you it’s pathetic

  • Tom Lowery

    @Dean: Obviously you do not care about FACTS but only want to believe the bullshit that makes you feel right. I won’t say THINK as if you really beleive that ridiculous website then you are no thinker.

    Thanks for the “toughen up” advice, but you wont find anyone tougher than me. If anyone needs to toughen up it is you for being so afraid of your own feelings that you seek to demonize others. Sad…and very, very COMMON.

  • Dean

    @Tom Lowery: Oh yea Tom very good I think it is you who is running behind certain feelings to make yourself feel good, Your reaction speaks volumes and yet again I ask the Question what facts?

  • Hyhybt

    @Dean: Your link does not in the slightest negate the correctness of my reaction. You start in with [guano] about “dark forces,” “Illuminati,” etc., that’s always going to be the appropriate response.

  • Dean

    @Hyhybt: I have not fully read that article as I did not fully understand it

  • Abirdwillingtobeitself

    @Dean: Looney tune!

  • Ogre Magi

    @Moramor: OOOOO look at little miss goody goody.You are just as pure as angel piss aren’t you!

  • Ganondorf


    “Oh yea, and finally, only the radical Christian right in the US does not believe in evolution. The rest of the christian world is quite comfortable with evolution guided by God.”

    Which is just as plausible as a story of Kal-L, son of Jor-L, sent to earth three billion years ago to guide evolution. Just as much evidence for that hypothesis as alien beings guiding evolution on earth. There’s nothing in evolutionary theory BY ITSELF that would rule out Kal-EL’s intervention. LOL! Then again, more than one bible story clearly states that beliefs proportioned to evidence are MORALLY inferior to beliefs that have no evidence (and cannot by definition) to support them (e.g., racism). And the meme protects itself. Please don’t pretend that one needs to embrace self destructive behaviors and ridiculous beliefs if one isn’t a christian.

    Plantinga’s got a highly amusing argument that seeks to drive a wedge between belief in naturalism and belief in evolution.

  • Not Shocked At All

    @bbg372: First of all let me point out that I never advocated for or against religion. What I do believe is that everyone has the right to believe whatever they want without ridicule and hate. No matter what a person believes, it is WRONG to hate. Those people that respond to hate with hate accomplish nothing. Well, maybe they accomplish looking just as ignorant and irrelevant as the people who spewed the hate in the first place.

    As far as Einstein is concerned, I never said he believed in god, I said he was a man of faith. “Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in Spinoza’s God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists.” This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: “I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details.” Einstein’s famous epithet on the “uncertainty principle” was “God does not play dice” – and to him this was a real statement about God. A famous saying of his was “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” I don’t refute what you wrote about him. He did say what you posted, but it was taken out of context to his entire belief system. The last statement about science and religion he made in his latter years. Although he did not believe in a personal God, he indicated that he would never seek to combat such belief because “such a belief seems to me preferable to the lack of any transcendental outlook”. So you can try to fashion Einstein into an anti-religious, faithless scientist here, but that is simply not true.

    Also, mine were just a few examples of scientists who were people of faith, upon searching Google, there are many more. And those two “insignificant” examples were Nobel laureates. What I conclude from your way of thinking, 7% of a group is “insignificant.” So you must think that a mere 10% would also be insignificant? So the 10% of the world that is gay is insignificant right? Or do you think that when something reaches 10% then all of the sudden it is much more respectable? Please… I’m one of that 10% figure and I am not insignificant and neither are you. Neither are those scientists in that 7% number. Their contributions and ways of thinking made them people worth valuing and respecting. Smaller percentages of many groups have made large impacts on their societies and organizations. You saying they are insignificant is not in any way a fact as you so love to point out. It is your opinion and you are entitled to it but it is nothing more than that.

    I will congratulate you on semantics! Nice play on words concerning evolution as well. It is called the Theory of Evolution by all scientific organizations including your precious National Academy of Scientists. No matter how much I Googled it, I could not find one instance outside of you post that called it “The Theory by Which Evolution Occurs.” Whether it is math, physics, or evolution, until it can be proven through irrefutable observation, testing, and repeated results, it is just a theory and nothing more. Micro-evolution is indeed a fact. It has been proven. Macro-evolution is not. While many believe it probable, it is not irrefutable. No one can prove through empirical evidence that we started as biological matter in a swirl of primordial soup. It has never been observed, it has never been successfully tested, and therefore has never been repeated. Therefore, the evolution you speak of is NOT a fact. It is, at this point, just theory. I had to point this out because you need to be corrected. You are not entitled to your own facts. Your words, not mine. But I will be generous and extend to you what you granted me. It may be your opinion that evolution is a fact, and you are entitled to that opinion.

    And as far as gravity is concerned, it is indeed accepted as true. Still… …not a fact. The Theory of Gravity. Look it up.

    You are right again, I must point out, because words do have meanings. Faith is one of those words. Faith is trust, hope and belief in the goodness, trustworthiness or reliability of a person, concept or entity. These theories you and I have talked about, I have faith that they are true and in the science that is working to prove them. Until they can be proven however, it is just faith that lets me believe they are true. Love cannot be proven but I believe in that too. To settle it, I also believe in God and have faith that he exists. I can’t prove his existence with physical evidence, but you cannot disprove it either. Evidence is also sometimes a thing of faith.

    For example: A cancer patient is miraculously cured. You would say that there is some logical, biological reason. A person of faith may claim it was a miracle from God. The doctors cannot explain why it happened at all. Which is view of the cure is right? No person on earth can give empirical evidence about why it happened, so who is right? Miracle or not? There is no quantifiable or empirical evidence. Both sides believe the evidence is in their favor though neither can prove it. It is a question of faith. For you it would be faith in a concept, for the other it would be faith in an entity.

    My point is this, not all things can be explained, and it is only through faith in a scientific explanation or a God that most people can wrap their minds around how the unexplainable happens. So I suggest that until you can PROVE that all religious claims are ‘not actual’, it is just your opinion that they are false.

    When I said we would have to agree to disagree to Kamuriie, I don’t remember including you in the ‘we’. Even if you were, you have no choice to but agree to disagree. I disagree with your statements, you disagree with mine. You have no choice but to accept that I do not agree with you. If you do not, then maybe you are not as much as an adherent to facts as you would like me to believe.

    Finally, as far as you ‘correcting’ me… …I must admit that statement gave me a good laugh. I had fun using that in this post too. Here is one last FACT for you: you ‘corrected’ me on nothing. You merely tried to subjugate your viewpoint. In order to correct me, I would have to both be willing to accept your foremost authority as an expert in the corrective subject (which I do not) and be weak enough (which I am not) to allow my own beliefs to be dictated by a faceless poster on a web site. It would also help if all your ‘facts’ were sound.

    Everything I’ve said above are my views, opinions and beliefs. Accept or reject as you will. Attack or agree. You are entitled to do so. If not, I am sure that bbg372 will correct you.

  • bbg372

    @Not Shocked At All:

    Emily C. Heath and many of the respondents to this article, yourself included, do not seem to understand that belief in general, and religious belief in particular, is not exempt from criticism, nor is it hateful to ridicule a belief that is indeed worthy of ridicule.

    As far as your latest attempt to misrepresent the beliefs of Albert Einstein is concerned, even if we accept for the sake of argument that he believed in the God of Spinoza, the pantheist equivocation of god with the universe belies the term “god,” and does not support your characterization of him as a person of faith.

    That the number of scientists who believe in the existence of a god is insignificant in comparison to the number of scientists who do not believe in the existence of a god only indicates which belief is representative of most scientists, it is not a judgment of the value of individual scientists or the contributions of individual scientists.

    It is no wonder that your research did not wield any results when you do not understand the difference between a theory and a phenomenon. A theory explains a phenomenon. Gravity is not a theory. Gravity is a phenomenon. Relativity is the theory that explains the phenomenon of Gravity. Likewise, Evolution is not a theory. Evolution is a phenomenon. Natural Selection is the theory that explains the phenomenon of Evolution.

    A theory is observable and testable by definition. A theory is also falsifiable by definition. Your statement that until a set of explanations meets this criteria “it is just a theory and nothing more” and your suggestion that because a theory “is not irrefutable” it is not sound demonstrates that you do not understand the concept.

    The theory of Abiogenesis explains the origins of life. The theory of Evolution explains the development of life. That you conflate one with the other demonstrates that you do not understand either.

    Evolution has been observed both in nature and in the laboratory, and even a cursory search would yield a wealth of results.

    Faith is belief in the absence of evidence. You do not have faith in science. You have a reasonable belief in science because its reliability can be demonstrated and independently verified.

    A negation cannot be proved. If a phenomenon does not exist, then there would be no evidence with which to prove its non-existence. A positive claim can be proved. Therefore, a positive claim bears the burden of substantiation. In other words, it is not a weakness of the argument of one making a negative claim, e.g. a god does not exist, or religious claims are false, that he cannot prove it, but it is a weakness of the argument of one making a positive claim, e.g. a god does exist, or religious claims are true, that he cannot prove it.

    If there is truly no evidence to the cause of the spontaneous recovery of a terminally ill person, then the correct view is that the cause is currently unknown. It is certainly not to multiply entities unnecessarily and postulate the existence of a supernatural being that suspended the laws of physics in order to intercede on his behalf. Furthermore, if the spontaneous recovery of a terminally person is evidence that god exists, then by that reasoning the spontaneous death of a healthy person is evidence that god does not exist.

    You are using “we have to agree to disagree” to mean that we have to agree that we disagree with one another. I am using “we do not have to agree to disagree” to mean that I do not have to agree that you are entitled to your own facts.

    Consider yourself corrected.

  • axialthirring

    Gay Christians are like Jewish Nazis. They both adhere to a death cult that openly spews hate against them.

  • zenileon

    @Lars Eighner: Hear! Hear!

  • T. Bridges

    Now before i start, I want to say that I am Christian and I am straight. The thing that’s wrong is the fact that it doesn’t make sense to be gay and really call yourself a Christian. To be Christian means to be Christ-like— Jesus was not gay and His word speaks against homosexuality calling it an abomination, therefore one cannot be gay and Christ-like; the two are mutually exclusive. Of course that shouldn’t stop anyone from believing in God and His word, but the way you live your life is your choice and you will face God on your Judgement Day. Nonetheless, I still do not believe that Christians should act hateful towards homosexuals, because then, they are not being Christ-like themselves. God’s love is unconditional and He still loves you regardless of your lifestyle choice because we are all God’s children, but that doesn’t mean that He approves of it. It’s the job of a Christian to reach out and spread the word of God, but we shouldn’t force anyone to listen because in the end that helps no one and only makes things worse. Also, it is no one’s right to say that someone is going to Hell because they’re gay— we don’t know the future and it is not our place to tell the fate of another because only God knows. We should be kind to others and accept them for who they are; whether or not you approve should your personal opinion and does not need to be publicized; It’s pretty much a thing of respect, and the comments that I’ve read tell me that you all have been treated in a very Godly way. Those Christians that have treated you so wrong will also have to face God on their Judgement Day. And if I am wrong, then I too will have to face God for it on my Judgement Day.
    These all are my personal beliefs and things that I live by, and I do not mean to offend anyone, but if I did then I apologize in advance. This is the way that I live my life as a Christian, choosing to answer questions when they come to me. And I honestly believe that God sent me here. I hope I helped. God bless.

  • Hyhybt

    @T. Bridges: @T. Bridges: Your premise rests on either deliberately mis-defining “gay” to be solely about behavior (which would be a lie, something serious to make God’s Top Ten List of No-Nos) or else presumes that accepting Jesus as savior causes people who are attracted to those of their same sex the way most are attracted to the opposite automatically and instantaneously to switch sides somehow (also clearly false, though I can see how someone raised a certain way who isn’t gay himself might believe that would work) or else that it is simply impossible for gay people ever to come to know Jesus at all (also false; plenty of counterexamples are available, if you can’t see us anywhere else, at

    Which of those falsehoods do you mean?

  • T. Bridges

    Neither. Anybody who wants to can accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior and learn of His teachings and love Him. But I believe that a Christian is someone who tries their best to live their life like Christ and tries their best to resist all temptation of doing anything otherwise. I pray every night for the strength to resist the temptation of sin, and according to the word of my God, homosexuality is a sin. But I am not perfect and I am not judging anyone because it is not my place, it’s God’s. What many people do not know is that no sin is worse than another— sin is sin. And although we are all sinners, I don’t believe it’s right to embrace sin. Instead, I believe that one should pray for strength and God will come to his/her rescue.

  • Hyhybt

    @T. Bridges: So, then, you’re choosing option A: deliberately misdefining “gay” as a behavior, and thereby breaking the commandment against lying?

    Being celibate does not alter whether a person is gay or straight.

  • Merv

    Gay Christians, here was your chance to prove that you aren’t the silent collaborators atheists accuse you of being, and you failed. It’s been almost two years since Dean up above regurgitated the typical mainstream Christian attacks on gay people. You had two years to tell him that not all Christians believe that. You didn’t. Several atheists tried to rebut him, but you didn’t join in. And yet, if an atheist says that Christianity is an anti-gay religion you immediately jump down his throat. Face it, you’re lying, hypocritical quislings. Quit pretending otherwise.

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