Will Prop 8’s Sudden Death Change The Way Barack Obama Feels About Your Marriages?

Barack Obama called himself a “fierce advocate” for America’s queers. Yesterday that community won a huge victory in its battle for equality. Surely Mr. Obama was out there dancing in the streets too?

The White House’s official reaction to the ruling was this: “The President has spoken out in opposition to Proposition 8 because it is divisive and discriminatory. He will continue to promote equality for LGBT Americans.”

See what Mr. Obama’s spokesflack Ben LaBolt did there? Obama believes Prop 8 to be “divisive and discriminatory,” so he’ll “continue to promote equality,” just not every kind of equality.

So no, Prop 8 did not change the president’s mind about same-sex marriage, and nobody at this website expected it to. “He supports civil unions, doesn’t personally support gay marriage though he supports repealing the Defense of Marriage Act, and has opposed divisive and discriminatory initiatives like Prop. 8 in other states,” says a White House aide who refused to be named — because stating the obvious is still a cardinal sin.

In reacting to the ruling, the president’s statement also gave no hint of support or lack thereof for Judge Vaugn Walker’s actual ruling. This let’s him maintain that he doesn’t like laws that endorse discrimination, but that he also doesn’t support “stripping 7 million people of their right to vote,” as NOM’s Brian Brown puts it. This is also the president’s approach to Don’t Ask Don’t Tell: He doesn’t support the law, but nor does he support the most direct way (executive order) to killing it.

We know where the president stands on marriage equality. Plainly, he does not support it. So I won’t fault the guy for being dishonest. I will fault him for continuing to ask for our votes and our dollars when he continues straddling the line on just how far he’ll go to fight what he knows to be discrimination.

Update: On MSNBC this morning, White House advisor David Axelrod reiterated much of the same.

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  • Cam

    His position is all about election strategy, he, or somebody in the Administration (Probably Rahm) things that supporting gay marriage is a no no. So it doesn’t matter if it becomes legal, he’ll continue to dance on the issue.

    Just because abortion became legal doesn’t stop a whole bunch of politicians saying they’re against it. I won’t expect any change from the White House on this one.

    A nice thought on this, is that hopefully 20 years from now, they will be on the hot seat on interview shows asking how they could have ever thought this way.

  • DR

    More tepid support from a guy who wishes we would just go away…Can someone find his backbone, please, I think he lost it when he moved into the White House.

  • Hilarious

    Ok and McCain doesn’t support civil unions or gay marriage or any gay rights at all.

    You’re really going to cry because you’re getting something rather than the alternative option of absolutely nothing?

  • Bill Perdue

    Obama supported same sex marriage until 1996 and then switched side to pander to bigots.

    His pandering got so bad that he intervened in the Prop 8 fight to denounce same sex marriage. His bigoted battle cry ‘gawd’s in the mix was replayed by Yes on 8 (No on 8 ignored it) innumerable times in the last week or so and it cost us the election.

    Obama is a long time, stubborn opponent of same sex marriage because it gets him votes.


  • CJ

    Obama is a very conflicted man. That pretty much sums up most politicians. One day they support something – the next day they don’t. It is a constant dancing for the audience. I do believe that he is personally opposed to full equality. There are plenty of politicians that are willing to stand up for equality, politicians who DO believe in full equality. Meanwhile Obama keeps dancing consistently get… inconsistency.

  • DR


    He supported full equality before he became President. He got elected (partly) on a platform of advocacy for the LGBT community and yet his comments on major LGBT marriage victories have been utterly tepid. He is still acting like a junior senator trying to build consensus on various issues instead of a leader paving the way for things to happen. Sometimes toes need to be stepped on and feathers need to be ruffled. The only feathers he ruffled were those of the USSCt at his last State of the Union address. He needs to be doing that to the Dems and the Republicans, and he’s not. A true leader would be applauding ANY victory for equality, not issuing a mealy-mouthed comments like we got.

    2012 elections ought to be interesting, to say the least. His inexperience is showing, and that ought to have a big impact.

  • Bob

    Obama wanted our money and votes and once elected, he spit in our faces. I hope Hilary dumps her position and runs against him in the next promary. This man has lost most of the LGBT vote.

  • John (CA)

    The federal Democrats are spooked by same-sex marriage because many of them still believe that John Kerry would’ve won Ohio in 2004 if it wasn’t for a couple judges in Boston and Gavin Newsom.

    It is not just President Obama.

    The Speaker of the House and the Junior Senator from California – both are up for re-election this year – issued very tepid, generic statements denouncing “discriminatory marriage amendments,” refused to answer any questions about whether they personally would’ve gone as far as Walker did, and then walked off.

  • Hilarious

    @DR: I’ve never heard anyone say they voted for Obama due to his stance on gay rights.

    Considering an overwhelming majority of the nation isn’t gay in the first place I find it hard to believe that his stance on gay rights had anything to do with him getting into the White House at all.

    If anything it’s McCain and Palin who got Obama into office with so many votes and again I’m still wondering what your other option would’ve been. It was either McCain or Obama. Are you really regretting voting for Obama? Really?

    If you don’t like him then don’t vote for him next election. But to pretend like McCain would’ve been a better choice is just idiotic.

  • Gary B.

    I think Obama in his heart would LOVE to have national gay marriage, but he’s a politician. He’s thinking big picture like the economy, foreign policy, the environment, etc. He’s thinking of getting re-elected in 2012. Gay marriage is such a divisive issue, that if he does really take it on the way we’d like him to, that becomes the focus of his re-election campaign and he stands a greater chance to lose, which means he can’t continue to work for his goals on what I’m sure he considers to be more important life or death issues. I’m not saying he’s right, I’m not saying he’s not spineless, and I’m not saying he’s handling those “bigger issues” very well, just that it’s political dynamite for him to say what I bet he truly feels. The issue then becomes, when is it safe for him or someone in his position to finally endorse what’s in their heart? Basically, politics sucks.

  • DR


    I call “foul” on that nonsensical comment that folks didn’t vote for him because he had a well thought-out and visible GLBT platform. That’s a flat-out lie, and if you put down the Kool Aid and stopped defending the inaction coming from the White House, you’d admit it. Instead, you try to rewrite history and throw around scare tactics.

    I absolutely regret voting for Obama, and have no problem saying it. I haven’t decided who to vote for in 2010 or 2012. But it won’t be a Democrat unless I see a dramatic shift in handling of a multitude of issues from health care to the economy to GLBT issues. I’m not going to vote party line just because I’m supposed to be afraid of the boogeymen Republicans. I’m done with that crap.

    The Democrats have completely squandered their political capital on a number of missteps made by this administration. 2010 elections will be a bloodbath in the House and Senate, and I suspect that 2012 won’t bode well for Obama, either.

  • Bill Perdue

    @Gary B.: Everything he says and does is opposed to same sex marriage. Why would that lead to believe that deep in his heart of hearts he likes us or that, if he did, which is totally unlikely, that that makes the slightest difference.

    If he acts like an enemy, and he does, we have to treat him like an enemy.

    On November 2nd 2010 do what you can to repay the Democrats and Republicans for their bigotry, wars and economic looting and either vote for a left party or sit it out.

    On November 6th 2012 do what you can to repay the Democrats and Republicans for their bigotry, wars and economic looting and either vote for a left party or sit it out.

  • Cam

    @Hilarious: said..

    “Ok and McCain doesn’t support civil unions or gay marriage or any gay rights at all.

    You’re really going to cry because you’re getting something rather than the alternative option of absolutely nothing?”

    This article ased a specific question “Will Obama change his stance now that……”

    The article never asked whether McCain would be better, so please stop going on Auto-pilot defence. Saying that nobody can complain because there’s worse out there is ridiculous. It is statements like that that have let HRC and the DEMS get away with doing practically nothing for us for the last 2 decades.

  • Queer Supremacist

    Obama had Donnie McClurkin on his campaign and P. Rick Warren at his inauguration. None of whom support gay marriage. By any intellectually honest standards, all of them are bigots.

    This is a historic occasion and he sends the equivalent of a form letter. He is not our friend, our ally, or even a good president.

    Ignore his words, watch his deeds.

  • Gary B.

    I can’t understand why my post had a negative reaction. I thought I was really clear in my thinking, and obviously I want national gay marriage ASAP. It’s too bad Obama won’t step up to the plate more. I’m not saying he’s right, just postulating what his thinking about it might be.

    Saying in his heart that he would love gay marriage equality is of course me theorizing and reading between the lines. Honestly, it was really hard for me to come to grips with the Obama I saw (or maybe just wanted to see) pre-election, and then the person who has accomplished so little since becoming President.

    It just shows me that politicians are not the answer to issues like this because they have to play the political game. I was hoping he would really make things happen in a lot of areas, but he hasn’t, either because he’s not being permitted to by those truly in power, or cowardice, or whatever.

    Hopefully this will be answered in the courts and legalized nationally, and it won’t ultimately matter what Obama or any sitting President thinks. W didn’t exactly approve of abortion, but it was the law of the land.

    Until the time that Obama is ready to come around (whether he truly wants to or not), let us not forget that we just had a major victory, and hopefully it will lead to something truly wonderful nationwide that also impacts the rest of the world.

  • tjr101

    If Obama came out in support of same-sex marriage he will lose. It’s a sad fact of the American electorate. It’s not just Republicans that oppose same-sex marriage, it’s millions of Dems and independents as well.

  • Black Pegasus

    @Hilarious: Thank You for making common sense cogent arguments on this issue. I agree with you 100%

    This constant and pathetic drum beat of anti-Obama rhetoric coming for the Gays tells me all I need to know about them! I can’t understand what in the hell they want from him beyond what he’s already given and committed to! Do they honestly believe the alternative (McCain/Palin) would have been better? If you bitter fags hate this President so much, then VOTE your best interests and see how that’ll work out for ya! I’m SICK of the demagoguery from
    Gay Tea Party Clowns..

  • christopher di spirito

    Barry is afraid of two things:

    1. Michelle Obama
    2. the religious right

    I don’t think he will come out in favor of gay marriage until after he leaves office.

    Just like that other Democratic coward, Bill Clinton, who now says how much he “regrets” signing DOMA.

    Yeah, whatevah.

  • Chitown Kev

    @Black Pegasus:

    See, here is what I mean about these Obamabots.

    “You, too, will be assimilated into Obamabot nation and will support our President 100% in everything he does, for he is our leader.”

    Ni…man, please, go on with that bullshit (in fact, I do like Obama, but I hate this obsessive, personality cult bullshit).

  • Chitown Kev

    @christopher di spirito:


    I suspect that Michelle Obama is more liberal than President Obama, though. After all, she was the one that worked for the Daley Administration.

  • reason

    The only people that are regretful about their vote are sensationalist voters. Just like sensationalist investors they turn in the wind depending on their heart rate, truly desultory individuals. Wake up to reality, unless your still fourteen you should understand the game by now, politics is a long con. Your dealing with a massive ship that absolutely cannot turn on the dime, at the same time your trying to keep people motivated so they don’t nanny out along the way. Sorry to break your hearts, but there is not going to be some savior that is going to descend onto the scene and slay every American that would stand in the way of equality. Reality is not a Disney movie. Your delusions paint pictures on politicians that are not valid or sane. Change happens, as there is gay marriage already in some states, but it doesn’t happen quickly, over 200 years later built on struggles and victories that many may not even relate to let alone understand how it benefited them. This president is the first one in modern history to face so many challenges, and has moved the fastest in enacting major changes. Yet people still cry of inexperience and regret for supporting; the same regret that I have heard in GWB first term and have happened to the presidents before him with faltering poll numbers. The people seem to be going through the same cycles with every president, topping it off with wacko’s emerging for every democratic administration in modern history. Once you tune in to reality the ride will be less bumpy and you will be one step ahead of the curve.

    From a realistic perspective, we are in an election year with seats open all over the country including blue dog districts. The presidents party is traveling in a strong head wind with anti-incumbent fever, and House ethics trouble to boot. Every cycle the opponents try to tie the leadership in with the individual that they are running against. Imagine a president celebrating and dancing about prop8, how is that going to play out for the guy on his ticket in Alabama, Miss, Louisiana, North Carolina, and beyond. So he brings a smile to the face of between 0.5 and 8 percent of the population, 0.2 – 3 percent that actually vote on a regular basis, while slashing his parties chances and making legislation and his next two years more difficult. To many people want a mouth piece out their shouting out all their emotions, even if it means absolutely nothing would get done, how shallow can you get. Some people are living in the wrong century let alone country.

  • Chitown Kev

    “This president is the first one in modern history to face so many challenges, and has moved the fastest in enacting major changes.”

    Uh, Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

    And Lyndon Baines Johnson had to deal with a nation mourning the assassination of a President.

    LBJ got shit DONE (not that this President hasn’t gotten shit done…he has but…here we go again with the personality cult bullshit.

    Obama’s challenges are a little different from LBJs (though not so different from FDR’s)

  • Black Pegasus

    @Chitown Kev: You are an Uncle Tom Snow Queen Ass Licker!

    Why did I know you would be the first one to respond to my post with your usual “apologetic negro” routine..? I’ve already told you; “I don’t Like YOU”! So don’t bother addressing me nor responding to my comments from here on! You always show up to try and be the “Negro of Reason”, when all you’ve become is a spineless JOKE..

  • Gary B.


    After the previous 8 years, I was about as cynical as you get about politics. My brother tried to get me excited about Obama long before he was even the candidate. It was only after listening to a lot of his speeches that I started to become a believer. I admit it, I got snowed. I thought he was sincere and for real and was going to make change happen. Even now I find it hard to doubt his sincerity, just his courage and his ability to really get a lot done. I always said “even if he gets elected, those who have the real money and power won’t let him accomplish much,” but secretly I hoped it wasn’t true.

    Someone pointed out to me after he escalated troops in Afghanistan that he said all along he would do that. I allowed myself to believe he was saying that for political gain and that he didn’t really mean it. I also thought his heart would be in the right place with gay rights and gay marriage. After all, he understands the effects of discrimination firsthand. Maybe he genuinely is against gay marriage, but my thinking is that he’s just too intelligent to really think that way, even if he can’t speak it aloud publicly.

    Anyway, I can see what some people are saying, basing their opinions on what a person does as opposed to what they say, but it’s just not that simple. There are so many factors to consider, and sometimes the political game has to be played in the right timing. I don’t like it, and I don’t think Obama has done a good job at it. I’m disappointed and disheartened, but seriously, if it comes down to him against Sarah Palin or someone else completely brain dead or who is just generally a far worse choice in 2012, Obama gets my vote.

    In the meantime, I work for change in my own way and celebrate the victories and forward movement. Do I get really sad and discouraged that it doesn’t happen faster, or like, you know, yesterday? Of course… but at least we’re moving in the right direction.

  • DR


    “Sensationalist voters”?!? I’ve been a lifelong Democrat, why is it so hard for the Kool Aid set to accept that some of us have had it with eighteen years of lies, broken promises, and manipulation of the worst kind? I notice that you can’t argue the fact that Obama had a GLBT-heavy campaign, so you insult those who are fed up with his spinelessness.

    “This president is the first one in modern history to face so many challenges, and has moved the fastest in enacting major changes.”

    As Chitown Kev pointed out, you really need to reread your history books. This comment is so historically inaccurate it’s laughable. Lincoln, Johnson, FDR, LBJ, Wilson… there have been many Presidents who had a lot to address. What exactly is your definition of “modern history”? Just enough to justify this position?

    “From a realistic perspective….”

    I think that sentence needs to read “from a realistic perspective, GLBT voters need to shut up and accept their position at the back of the bus in the hopes that maybe the President and Democratically-controlled Congress will move on issues in a real and meaningful way sometime before Obama becomes a lame duck.” That’s really what you’re saying.

    I don’t think so. Mediocrity and spinelessness may suit you, but it doesn’t suit me.

  • Chitown Kev

    @Black Pegasus:

    Apologize for shit.

    Barack Obama is a novelty for yo’ dumb black ass.

    I’ve been watching that politician for almost 15 years…I don’t have to apologize for anything; Barack Obama has always been a slightly left of center pedestrian Democratic politician.

    No more and no less.

    And he hasn’t surprised me that much.

    He never pretended to be anyone’s savior, not for gay folks and defintely not for black folks.

    @Gary B.:

    You obviously weren’t listening to the man; he said he would draw down Iraq, beef up troops in Afghanistan, and be harsher toward Pakistan.

    What part of that didnt you understand?

    And I’d rather be a negro of reason than an irrational sounding nigger bitch.

  • Chitown Kev

    Oh, and popcorn is on me, guys.

  • Chitown Kev

    “And I’d rather be a negro of reason than an irrational sounding nigga bitch.”

    That statement was not for you, of course, Gary B, it’s for the ghetto ho…

  • Chitown Kev

    My apologies for my board hoodratism (as my nephew now says).

  • Chitown Kev

    @Black Pegasus:

    You know, I don’t know why you choose to assassinate my character, I can disagree with you and not assassinate your character (and that doesn’t mean that I have to like you, Derr…)

  • jeffree

    @Kevin: Well said. Pegasus needs to fly fly fly away home.

  • Swimmer - Chicago

    Wake up! Most Democrats don’t support gay marriage – so the politicians play to these folks – give the queers civil unions if we must. Frankly, not much has changed since we had Clinton in office. The change that is coming about is coming from within the ranks – changing hearts and minds – society’s attitude is much better toward gays – and that’s no thanks to the Democrats.

  • Hilarious

    @DR: No it’s really not a lie. There were many reasons people chose to vote for Obama(McCain/Palin) aside and it all had to do with their own personal lives and families.

    If anyone is being defensive it’s you because I’m not sipping any Kool Aid nor am I hyping Obama.

    The reality is all of you who got caught up in the hype and were chugging Obama love Kool Aid are now crying because you expected too much too soon and didn’t get every little thing you wanted a whole 2 years later.

    Those of us who merely said “He’s better than McCain.” and voted accordingly with no expectations are just riding it out without whining or crying. The fact remains that he is our President. You don’t have to like it, but for the love of God act like an adult, and deal with it. He’s not going anywhere until the end of his term.

    It’s so childish to flip on a dime and recant your own vote after the fact. You’re the reason he’s in office. Own your decision.

    And keep repeating this until you get it: McCain wouldn’t have given you ANYTHING! He’d more than likely have worked to take even more rights away from us. That’s not sipping Kool Aid, that’s the truth.

  • Hilarious

    @Swimmer – Chicago: And most republicans do support gay marriage?

  • reason

    Generally when I say modern I mean in my life time and a bit beyond. All the people that you listed were dead before I was born. Even still Johnson, I take it your talking about Andrew Johnson 1865-1869 since you also listed LBJ. Andrew flunked the presidency and the country plain and simple. LBJ passage of the civil rights act was passing a bill that was already written and had the votes in the house when he took office. He used the head of steam and the countries mood after the assassination of JFK to pass the voting rights act. Medicare was passed at an opportune time when 50 percent of the elderly were lacking health care. Yeah Johnson got a lot done but his train was already rolling when he hoped on, he may have thrown to much coal in the fire becuase it went out with support for the Great Society teetering and Johnson doing so poorly that he dropped out of his reelection paving the way for Richard Nixon. Franklin one of the greatest in history had 12 years three terms in office. Lincoln 1861-1865, Lincoln preserved the nation need not say much more. Wilson what did he inherit? His civil rights record is horrendous and he laid the ground work for WWII. 3/4 of the train was off the cliff when Obama hopped on, in a year in a half he saved the country from a second depression, and passed three major pieces of legislation including Recovery and Reinvestment Act, Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act, Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protections Act. Civil Rights, he signed Lilly Leadbetter Fair Pay Act, Matthew Shepard and James Bird Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act, and did a host of things to provide benefits and civil rights throughout the government. Winding down one of two inherited wars, changing stratigy to try to turn around a failing war, stepped up the heat on the terrorist hiding in Pakistan, vastly improved Americas image around the world. This is just some of the stuff and we are not even half way in to his administration. So maybe I should change my language and say one of the most productive and inheriting the most crap in the last couple of decades, and so far a contender for the most productive in U.S. history.

  • reason

    @Swimmer – Chicago: Wrong gay marriage comes out of Democratic state houses, and that is the truth.

  • Queer Supremacist

    @reason: Not in California. Twice, gay marriage came out of Republican appointed judges striking down bans that had bi-partisan support among the provincial yahoo turkey-basters and human coin slots who voted for it.

  • DR

    First off, you made a sweeping statement that no-one voted based on the GLBT platform.I read many comments on blog where folks specifically touted his platform on GLBT issues as reason to vote for him. Your sweeping statement was not correct.

    Secondly… So you blindly voted along party lines instead of making a well-thought out vote. You basically “voted for the other guy”. This is why our government is in the state it’s in.

    It’s really pathetic that you expect so little from government officials; the fact you refuse to demand more is the reason we have no rights. You don’t deserve to vote if you refuse to demand something more than nothing. Actually, idiots like you ought not to be allowed to vote in the first place.


    You have a very narrow view of history if the only part important to you is what happened after you were born. That’s another reason our leaders keep making the same mistakes. PS: You really need to brush up on Woodrow Wilson’s presidency and accomplishments.

  • Hilarious

    @DR: I didn’t say “no one” voted based on Obama’s stance on gay rights. I refuted your statement by saying that you were overstating the importance of his stance on gay rights in his getting elected and you were.

    I didn’t blindly do anything. I made an informed decision based on the fact that everything that came out of McCain’s face was stupid and even downright scary at times. Are you serious right now? You had two choices: Obama and McCain. You either had to “vote for the other guy” or not. Stop pretending to somehow be more informed than anyone else. Our government is in the state it’s in because WE’RE ONLY GIVEN TWO CHOICES!

    And here we go with the insults because you realized I’m right and your argument fell apart.

    “It’s really pathetic that you expect so little from government officials; the fact you refuse to demand more is the reason we have no rights. You don’t deserve to vote if you refuse to demand something more than nothing. Actually, idiots like you ought not to be allowed to vote in the first place.”

    The childishness of that blurb you just shat out speaks for itself. Grow up.

    You sound like a baby who dropped his bottle. Even after getting it back you’re still too busy having a fit over it falling in the first place.

    Demanding MORE MORE MORE and never being satisfied is the logic of children. You literally just described a child and you’re trying to insult me because I refuse to act that way(like you). Nice.

  • reason

    Never said the only part of history that was important was the part after I was born. I was simply comparing the president to those of the last couple of decades, but you can freely compare him to those throughout history though he hasn’t even reached the half way point. As fair as Wilson how about a direct quote on his civil rights from Yale Law School: “Wilson sympathizes with the Southern cause and once describes Reconstruction as the overthrow of civilization in the South. As President of Princeton University, he barred the entry of black students. As President of the United States, he presides over the extensive expansion of segregationist practices in the federal government, helping to make Washington, D.C. one of the most segregated cities in America. The Post Office begins to segregate black clerks, the Treasury Department establishes segregated toilets, and Wilson defends segregation as being to the advantage of blacks themselves.” Is that who you are comparing are current Presidents civil rights record to? Someone that was deeply evolved in establishing the foundation for Jim Crow.

  • edgyguy1426

    Kev, can I get mine without butter? Thanks ChiTownJim

    @DR: For backbone see: Argentina.

  • DR



    No, you had the option of third party, or not voting at all. I am fed up with this intellectually dishonest argument that we either vote Democrat or Republican. There’s the Green Party and the Libertarian Party, both of which have much better GLBT platforms than either of the big two.

    “The childishness of that blurb you just shat out speaks for itself. Grow up.”

    The fact is that you continue to argue that we shouldn’t expect much from elected officials. You voted against McCain and don’t seem to have any real standards for Obama except for him not being McCain. Some of us actually expect something to happen with a Democrat supermajority and a Democrat in the White House. Boy, were we ever wrong! Talk about an epic failure. I know a hell of a lot of people who feel the same. I know folks who even jumped ship because they didn’t like Bush, and actually believed that Obama would accomplish something. We’re all groaning about that one now.

    “Demanding MORE MORE MORE and never being satisfied is the logic of children. You literally just described a child and you’re trying to insult me because I refuse to act that way(like you). Nice.”

    Why are you defending a tepid comment on what will be seen as one of the most important legal decisions of our time? Your comments smack of complicity with the Democratic machine which only cares about being re-elected. This idea that expecting the President of the US to actually be a leader is too much to ask is sad and pathetic. Why on Earth should I respect someone who’s standard for the President of the US is “Well, at least he’s not John McCain”.

    Maybe you’re willing to be a second class citizen, but I’m not. Maybe you’re fine “voting for the other guy”, but that’s not good enough any more. We either hold our leaders accountable or we continue to be treated like dirt by them.

    At least Judge Walker got it right. Too bad Obama can’t.

  • reason

    All this third party talk, certainly not at the presidential level. How would a third party president get any legislation passed. I can tell you how, they wont. They will be licking the tail of every member in congress until they decide it is to much and resign. That, or the first thing they will do is caucus with one of the parties destroying any benefit of a third party breaking all their supports fragile hearts.

  • Hilarious

    @DR: “No, you had the option of third party, or not voting at all.”

    You just lost any shred of credibility with that line. Not even going to bother reading the rest of your crap. You don’t have a clue.

  • Chitown Kev


    Now, I like this particular argument of yours since there is SUBSTANCE to it; I don’t agree with all of it, but it is substantive.

    How, oh how can you even bring up LBJ and not bring up his biggest failure politically and strategically…and it wasn’t the Great Society either.

    And Woodrow Wilson’s civil rights record was horrendous, in fact that was the main reason almost 70% of the black community voted for Herbert Hoover in 1932.

    Even under FDR, blacks didn’t like the Democrats too much but they did like FDR (who had to deal with a 26-32% unemployment rate when he took office; that’s 2.5-3 times what Obama had on his plate).

    Other than civil rights, Wilson’s record as president was pretty decent; in some ways, Obama resembles Wilson (in good and bad ways)

  • Chitown Kev


    I agree with you about third parties at the Presidential level; having Ralph Nader rear his head every 4 years does little good.

    I have no problem with a strategic protest vote (I voted for Nader in 2000) but the Greens really need to win and gain represenattion at more local level and move up if they are ever to be considered a threat (there’s no Teddy Roosevelt type figure in the Green Party…Howard Dean is the closest the Greens could possibly come to a TR figure now.

    And he’s a Democrat.

  • DR


    For me it’s the principle of the matter. I cannot continue to vote for a party which continues to stab me in the back. I’d rather vote third party and send a definitive message. And that applies to local and national elections. I know it’s not a popualr opinion, but that’s how I feel at this point.


    You clearly aren’t as politically savvy as you like to come across if you think I don’t have a clue because I recognize that neither the Dems or the Republicans are our friends. One punches us in the face, the other stabs us in the back. Neither is an acceptable choice.

  • Gary B.

    I live in a very liberal, progressive town. Every election there are a lot of people going all out for 3rd party candidates, people whose views are vastly different from the traditional two-party system. These 3rd party candidates sound wonderful as a theoretical model.

    The reality of this situation is it’s choosing the lesser of two evils. When you get a Bush vs. Gore, or a Bush vs. Kerry, or an Obama vs. McCain, and the polls are as close as they have been, I just cannot afford to give my vote to someone who has zero chances of winning. I’m sorry, but in that situation principles be damned – we need to keep the greater of the two evils out of power.

    It’s a terrible no-win situation, but for me there are times to stand up for my principles, and there are times when I have to make a choice based in reality. Usually, voting for a 3rd party candidate is just throwing a vote away at best. At worst it’s giving the greater of two evils a better chance. Sending a message? Are you kidding me? No one cares except a fringe minority for a few moments before becoming a very minor historical footnote.

    Do what you need to for yourself so you feel good about your choice, but for me voting 3rd party has too high a price tag.

    Obama ain’t perfect, but he’s light years better than McCain. I could have voted Green or Libertarian or the Fire Island party, but it would have been a wasted vote once reality is taken into consideration.

  • Chitown Kev

    @Gary B.:

    It actually depends on where you live.

    I could afford to vote for nader in 2000, being as I lived in Illinois.

    Had I lived in Florida or…say, Wisconsin in 2000…that wold be a different story.

    For that matter, I could probably get away with voting Green in 2012, being as I live in Illinois.

    I say “probably” for the following reason, though…

    Personally, I think that this “National Popular Vote” deal is a horrible idea.

    But it is picking up steam.

  • Gary B.

    @Chitown Kev:

    I completely understand what you’re saying. That doesn’t mean those people stand a snowball’s chance in hell of getting elected, only that you aren’t doing any real damage by voting for them. Unfortunately, that doesn’t really help the situation.

    The way the system works, Obama was the best (and ultimately the only realistic) choice. I say let’s make the best of who we have. It could be a lot worse, and I do believe there’s hope for him yet. In reality, hopefully this will be decided (in our favor) by the Supreme Court, and Obama’s opinion will mean nothing. I highly suspect, however, that should national gay marriage become a reality and there’s nothing to lose by him standing publicly against it, he’ll sing its praises whether that’s what he really wanted all along or not. Too little too late? Absolutely, but we’ll have what we want.

  • Gary B.

    I meant saying nothing to gain in the post above.

  • Bill Perdue

    On the subject of the bigotry of Democrat politicians and how to combat them we sould keep in mind that our most important task is to break from the parties of the bigots.

    GLBT Democrats and Log Cabin Republican regularly get fed up with bigots like the Clintons, the Bushes, Obama. Pelosi, and self-loathers like Barney Frank. And for decades, blind as bats, party partisans in the movement have refused to connect the dots between their support for bigots and the continued sway of bigots in politics. For LGBT Democrats and Republicans the pattern of self-delusion and self immolation repeats itself endlessly as they swing, enthralled, from one lesser bigot to the next. As Karl Marx said “ History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce..

    Secondly, larger and more frequent demonstrations – national and local – with a militant agenda will demoralize our enemies, build alliance and most important of all be a focus to build nationwide, democratic (non-Democratic/Republican) militant. self sustaining organizations to drive our struggle forward.

  • Reason

    @Gary B.: Yeah I read that article, he is not being fully forth coming. Form a religious perspective marriage is a religious institution. One could argue that same sex marriage is difficult to justify under religious law. In the realm of government that should be irrelevant, and full equality to all of its citizens should be the main focus of a government. Obama is equivocating, but he has also stated that DOMA is unconstitutional which provides a hint that while he may not believe in same sex marriage personally, that he will not stand in the way of the role of government. I really don’t see him being put to the test, he will sign DOMA and knows the courts will have the say on weather the gay marriage becomes the law of the land.

    @Chitown Kev: Yeah, I could write pages about these guys but I guess Vietnam should be mentioned. I am also not saying the Great Society was a failure, I am saying LBJ’s politics led it to end up in failure. I should be clear no President has a crystal ball, they try to implement the best strategies to get the most they can done. The fact is it is impossible to get a perfect piece of legislation out of congress, so people are always going to criticizes and wonder well what if. The majority of the time those what if would have lead to a bigger failure. In the end you have to judge an administration on the total package not the things that were lost along the way.

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