“Masc4Masc.” Is it a sign of internalized homophobia or not? In a new think piece published by Huffington Post, writer Jeremy Helligar offers his two cents on the matter.
“Gay men can be obsessive when it comes to categorizing themselves,” Helligar writes, “especially when they hit the hook-up grid. ‘Masc,’ ‘fem,’ ‘top,’ ‘bottom,’ ‘hung,’ ‘sub,’ ‘dom,’ ‘twink,’ ‘bear,’ otter,’ daddy,’ ‘BBC.'”
Which leads us to the dreaded “Masc4Masc.”
A recent study published in Computers in Humans Behavior titled “Masculine Guys Online” surveyed 144 gay and bisexual men about their online dating habits and found that the majority of them viewed guys who write things like “Masc4Masc as “significantly less intelligent, significantly less sexually confident, and significantly less dateable than their counterparts.”
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But Helligar asks:
“Masc4Masc” may be both misguided and dismissive of anyone who swings too close to the crusty gay stereotype, but is it indicative of self-hating internalized homophobia as its critics often suggest? By publicly identifying as “masculine” and seeking the same, is one somehow rejecting his own gayness?
Helligar says not necessarily. He argues that describing oneself as “masculine” is no better or worse than describing oneself as “feminine.” And no one seems to take any issue when a gay man describes himself a femme.
Related: Are Modern Gay Men Obsessed With ‘Seeming Straight’? This Guy Thinks So.
“Masculine is as legitimate a gay quality as feminine,” he argues. “In fact, it’s been a cornerstone of gay culture for decades.”
Helligar explains:
In the post-Stonewall 1970s, Tom of Finland-style masculinity practically defined gay culture, whether it was aspirational, celebratory, or closer to parody. Chest hair and handlebar mustaches were hot, and The Village People dominated the disco soundtrack. Remember the most successful gay pop act of the era? The music was unabashedly gay while the members represented some of the most masculine male identities: cop, cowboy, construction worker, military man, leather-clad biker, etc.
Being into guys like this, Helligar says, is different from internalized homophobia or self-hatred.
“We spend so much time and effort rallying against gay stereotypes,” he writes, “but aren’t we only reinforcing them when we suggest that to desire masculine men is to somehow be anti-gay?”
Related: Why writing “no fems” is actually killing your dating game
“Masc4Masc” might not be sending the best message to gay guys who don’t qualify, but dismissing “Masc4Masc” as being anti-gay isn’t sending a particularly healthy message to gay guys who do qualify. We’re all men, and we’re all gay. Equating gay with feminine or flamboyant or camp does as much of a disservice to gay people as rejecting those qualities. It’s like expecting a black person to “act hip hop.”
After all, Helligar writes, “there’s no one way to be gay.”
What do you think? Does Helligar have a point? Share your perspectives in the comments below…
Paco
I don’t consider guys that use masc4masc in their profiles to be self-hating. I only think that of the profiles that say str8 acting. Masculinity is a gay and straight quality. Str8 acting is pretty much saying that the person is pretending to have qualities that only straight men can naturally possess.
What turns me off about the masc4masc profiles has more to do with the subjective nature of masculinity. Will I be masculine enough for them?
ChrisK
The guys who use Str8 Acting are not the deepest thinkers. I’ll try to help them by saying why not just masculine but for some reason they prefer the Str8 acting.
Donston
The funny part is that a lot of these supposedly masc and “str8 acting” guys can be deciphered as gay from yards away.
I’m not fem. I like football and basketball. I don’t watch Rupaul’s drag race (unless I’m flipping through the channels and just stop there for a few minutes). But I see no reason to hype it. I guess that’s because I’ve never used apps to troll for dick/ass but also because I find a variety of different guys attractive and just don’t care about they kind of stuff.
Hussain-TheCanadian
@Donston – You haven’t watched Rupaul’s drag race???? HOW DARE YOU SIR!!? I am reporting you to the pink brigades, Cornell Bianca Del Rio will be conducting the investigation. You are due at headquarters at 2100 hours tonight, please wear pajamas, we are renovating and I don’t know if Anderson Cooper will be there or not.
Donston
I appreciate drag (though I never found it interesting), and I have seen bits and pieces and almost watched a full episode once. There’s so much good stuff out there to catch up with. I just ain’t got time for that.
But I used to watch Project Runway and ANTM. So, I don’t think you have enough evidence to take this to trial.
Hussain-TheCanadian
Rupaul’s Drag Race is much more fun than Project runway, and funnier – Draq is for sure an art form, that’s why I enjoy watching it.
As for the trail, it depends on the judge, lets hope its not Marcus Bachmann (Michelle Bachmann’s husbans), that queen is extremely picky with his shows.
Donston
I guess I’m just over reality competition shows in general. Maybe if it came around a few years earlier it could have hooked me.
dfwenigma
If we look at what the media represents as masculine I think we have to start there. One issue I believe is that the movie and television community quite often places straight people in lead roles. This isn’t to say that one must be gay to act in a role that involves an LGBTQ person. But certainly if we want to hyprsexualize our real relationships and make our sexual identities binary that’s the way to do it. If we take a bisexual or straight actor or actress and place them in a sexually ambiguous or gay role and then they’re interviewed outside that role and in fact “act straight” that creates a role model whether we like it or not. If a straight man is in that type of role and “acts straight” because they are in fact straight how do we expect that the we and the world won’t see us that way. How many obese, very thin or other non-norm referenced gay men do we see in lead roles in Hollywood. I would say not many and not too many are consistently “out of the closet” and box office.
Mo Bro
So . . . gay/bi men who self-identify as masculine, as well as preferring that trait in their respective partners, are self-haters? Which means feminine lesbians are also self-haters . . . ?
And here I thought that label only applied to gay conservatives.
Every day’s a school day at Queerty.
Deanf
I actually agree with that, the gay community is far too obsessed with telling us who we should be attracted to.
And what’s wrong with us if we stick to a type
DarkZephyr
It seems weird to me to go around “identifying” as masculine. Why do that? Why not just be yourself and if you happen to be butch, then more power to you?
Who does that besides certain gay and bi men anyway? Its not something most people do. Very few straight guys, if any, go on about how “masc” they are and not all gay men do either. In fact I don’t personally know any gay man that identifies that way. The ones I know that could be described as “masculine” in the butch sense don’t seem to give it much thought. And to me that is how it should be.
I just don’t get it. I have been described by others as masculine but I don’t go around thinking about how “masc” I am like, at ALL, I guess I will just take their word for it. It doesn’t warrant becoming an *identity* for me. lol And I don’t care if a guy that I am dating is butch or “fem” at all.
Frankly I don’t personally know many “masculine” men who give a crap if the guy they are dating is butch or fem. I VERY rarely run into it personally and when I do run into it the ones who make a point of how masculine they are and how masculine they want their man to be really seem to be putting on airs or aren’t very self aware of how they *actually* carry themselves.
I rarely come across the “masc4masc” type in my direct dating life but I will tell you one thing, the few times I have, they have been almost ALL bottoms with literally only one exception. And a lot of them weren’t very self aware of their true mannerisms. But most gay men I have met don’t care one way or the other.
Anyway, for me at least, “Masc4Masc” has become an instant boner killer. Blech. I guess that’s just my preference.
JK 1984
I agree with @DarkZephyr.
I have met a lot of gay men over my time and in real life I don’t know anyone who identifies as Masc or goes round talking about it, they just get on with life. They and I have a mix of “traditionally masculine and/or feminine” traits, like most people will have. I have no need for dating apps so other than articles like this don’t have much insight into them.
My personal opinion of the whole Masc4Masc thing is not necessarily anti-gay or self hating, but maybe fear. From my personal experience when I was closeted and newly out (whilst serving in my countries Navy) I was fearful of being associated with “those gays”, i.e. feminine gays because the culture I grew up in they were seen as “less than”. I used to covet the surprise when people would say that I don’t act gay when I came out to them because the insinuation was that I was sufficiently straight acting.
Long ago I realised that all that stuff doesn’t matter and I learnt to live my life for me and not care about what other people think.
Also as someone else on this thread said, what is Masc (or insert other definition here) anyway? Everyone has their own opinion so what one person thinks is Masc the other might think something very different and you both end up disappointed. I’m probably old fashioned but I think that jabbing an open mind about who you may meet/meat will get you a better selection. That goes not just for “Masc” but other characteristics that we define ourselves and others by.
dwes09
One does not expect actual thought from you and here, as usual, you do not disappoint. Gay conservatives are self haters in the current political climate for specific reasons: you suck up to those who would see as less complete humans than them, and want you pushed back into the closet.
Were you to have actually read the the article, you’d have seen (and perhaps actually understood) that the author in question was arguing just the opposite. That masculinity was as intrinsic to homosexual men as a feminine affect and that neither was necessarily indicative of self hatred.
Every day can be a school day anywhere for those who think and use their eyes rather than their dogma to see the world.
Donston
Now you guys actually wanna discuss internalized homophobia? But as usual it’s in only in regards to the masc/fem debate.
Being naturally masculine is one thing. But I’ve never met a man who hypes up his supposed masculinity and who are obsessed with being seen as “bros” and “regular dudes” who don’t contend with internalized homophobia or have extreme hyper masculine/sadomasochistic fetishes or who are obsessed with men who don’t identify as homo or who are still trying to desperately hold on to some hetero dynamics and/or hetero-normalcy or who just spend way too much time and effort trying to undermine stereotypes.
And from my experience most self-accepting, self-comfortable gay men aren’t extreme on the masculine or feminine and have friends that fit a wide range on the faag spectrum.
KaiserVonScheiss
Some people are masculine and like masculine guys. There’s nothing wrong with that. It’s only personal preference, and everyone has them.
Donston
Attraction may be at the core of this article. But let’s not act like there aren’t plenty of gay men who resent fem men and blame them for homophobia. You see evidence of that resentment everywhere.
That’s one thing I will give to queer, fluid, I-don’t-believe-in-labels and sometimes gay-for-fun “identifying” guys. They may often be full of narcissism, self-denial, fetishes, etc. But they also often seem less concerned with one’s own masculinity, less obsessed with fitting into gender roles than from a great percent of homo/bi identifying men.
The problem once again is that this article is written about silly hook-up apps.
Heywood Jablowme
Ironically, Kaiser Wilhelm II enjoyed drag queens. (No indication he liked actual gay sex, but he liked drag queens.) There was a scandal when one of his gay drag queen pals dropped dead while performing.
jhon_siders
Same here I want a manly guy not some flaming queen ! And if you wear leathers you be a real player not a poser .
am_psi
This is silly. I think some of these people won’t be happy until every dating profile only says: “Looking for a living human.” Then, of course, different idiots will just come along and accuse you of discriminating against deceased otherkin.
Donston
I agree that the obsession with how people behave on these “dating” apps is ridiculous. There are many different and more important things to be discussed and there are other ways of bringing up fem-phobia than connecting it to profiles. And I stated in the previous app-obsessed article, these are mostly people looking for quick hook-ups and they want what they want.
If you’re that delicate that app profiles outrage you then how I do you survive in this world without getting an aneurysm?
Deanf
Lol that made me chuckle
DarkZephyr
“This is silly. I think some of these people won’t be happy until every dating profile only says: “Looking for a living human.”
Nah, I like when “Masc4Masc” types identify themselves in their profiles. That way I can avoid them. That type of guy is a total turn off for me.
DavidIntl
It does indeed get quite tiresome to read the constant hand-wringing about dating profiles. Is masc4masc (or “no asians” for that matter, or whatever) phrased in a way as considerate of others as it ideally should be? No. Is it discriminatory, bigoted, racist, etc.? No. It is just guys on a dating app expressing, in the interest of efficiency, who they prefer to date – because it is who they are attracted to. Just as declaring yourself on Tinder as a man looking for men is not an expression of misogyny.
Now in my case personally, the masc4masc label is a bit dysfunctional, since it tends to conjure images of masculine caricatures. Is there such a thing as typical4typical or boy-next-door4boy-next-door?
Heywood Jablowme
Writing “Masc4Masc” doesn’t necessarily mean someone is a self-hating homophobe. It usually just means he’s delusional.
A lot of these guys who think they are “masc,” aren’t really that “masc.” For s start, try listening to any tape recording of yourself that’s longer than a voice mail greeting. You probably sound GAY GAY GAY gayer than you realize.
Paco
Or take a video of yourself behaving naturally. Unlike a mirror, video tends to be more truthful with how an objective eye is seeing you.
Donston
So true. So many of these guys think they’re hella butch, but after a mere few minutes of talking to them you see right through it.
Internalized homophobia still very much an issue. Gay men taking on sexual identities that don’t belong to them and indulging behaving that does not reflect who they are just so they don’t have to be deemed gay or live the “gay lifestyle”. Gay men who are obsessed with bi-identifying men because they’re “closer to straight”, though almost half of bi-identifying men are fem as fvck. Legitimately bisexual men who don’t even considering building any type of a relationship with a guy and just uses them for sex/money. The many horrible things you hear from supposedly masc gay men about fem guys. Refusing to even socially engage with effeminate men. Buffing up and getting tattoos just to try to look more butch.
Internalized homophobia and self-hate are still very pervasive. But masc4masc is the least of concerns on this topic.
DarkZephyr
Heywood, I agree with you to an extent. The guys that tend to be more “butch” in mannerisms, in my experience, tend not to give it any thought and don’t go around thinking about how amazingly masculine they are.
Heywood Jablowme
@DarkZephyr: Right – I didn’t mean to imply there are NO gay guys who appear masculine, of course there are a lot of them but as you say they tend not to brag about it.
batesmotel
Yeah, DarkZephyr has it down. In the end, the truly masculine guys don’t even think about having to clarify it in a profile.
Kathy Green
I totally agree with Helligar. Also, I laughed my ass off when I read “otter”. OTTER!? Seriously!? So funny!
jhon_siders
Otter is a slim hairy man bear is a full figured hairy man I get a laugh out of a big fat guy that’s smooth and he calls himself a bear ??? nope .
jhon_siders
Well I see no problem with saying what you want in a ad If you do not want to play with a flaming queen that’s better than being vague And not wanting a 350 LB guy on you I can see that I don’t want to see Tarzan hear Jane out of a guy myself rather be a ordinary guy next door as a example I in the past at leather events I have met guys that were hot looking muscular bare ass in there chaps slap em on that ass and the pink chiffon comes outta the mouths ouch im not into that shit Why are you in leather if you don’t play ? Used to be if you were wearing the hide you were a real SM player not a poser . That’s what guys are stating in the ad that seem offensive to some .
ErgoCoffeeto
Or you could display some emotional intelligence and stick to listing what you do want in a man.
Mo Bro
One word, dude:
Punctuation.
JessPH
I notice that the only gay men complaining about Masc4Masc are those who can’t get a hook up from these dating apps. I don’t really see the problem here. I mean, if you are an effeminate gay men, wouldn’t it be better if dating profiles include descriptions like “Masc4Masc”? In that way, you can avoid meeting up with gay men who would just end up ditching you once you talk and a purse falls out of your mouth.
Josh447
I think guys who use macs4masc aren’t particularly homophobic, at all. Purseafobic yes, homophobic no.
Donston
The term you’re looking for is “fem-phobic”.
I’m just glad I settled down before all these hook up apps became a thing.
batesmotel
No, they’re not femphobic. They’re not scared of a feminine guy. These mas4masc guys have stereotypical guy interests. They don’t have anything in common with the more feminine guys. The more feminine guys tend to be into fashion and Lady Gaga, while the more manly guys are into physical activity, sports, and camping, etc. Those two types of men have nothing in common at all. You can’t put them in the same room it’s just awkward on both ends.
dwes09
You need to get out more. There are very feminine men who are into sports, both following and playing them. And very feminine men who are into camping in the original sense of the word. Just as there are women who like and do these things and are not “masc.”
“Masc.” refers to a specific affect, not hobbies, or interests. You can be masculine and knit, or be fem and a general contractor. And in terms of sexual coupling, some prefer opposites, some prefer the same, some are top some are bottom. It does not necessarily have anything to do with self hatred or internalized anything. It is just sex.
Josh447
Donston-you’re way off mark, cupcake.
Batsmotel-nailed it. ?
Josh447
And self hating? Doesn’t compute. Irrational statement. That’s like saying you hate yourself bc you choose Nike shoes over generic shoes.
I like my men deep fried in testosterone and that’s my aim. That is self loving bc I know what I want and go for it in a geeter dun sort of way. I get my needs met best I can. That’s a self loving human.
Donston
“deep fried in testosterone”. You sound like the queen-iest of queens.
Yeah, this comment section is definitely further proof that homos who promote and hype up their supposed masculinity definitely got some issues most of time.
Josh447
Donston- again… Off mark
crowebobby
I don’t understand how anyone is supposed to adjust their sexual taste to a gay political correctness. I could meet identical twins and one might turn me on while the other left me ice cold. I have a type, but have occasionally found extreme opposites to that type very exciting.
batesmotel
I’ve never found it offensive for someone to have Masc4Masc on their profile. For one, what that person considers Masculine is subjective. On the other hand, they’re at least narrowing down what they’re looking for prevent time wasting only to be disappointing. I’ve met those who put Masc4Masc and for the most part many of them are just regular dudes that are not in the gay stereotypical culture at all. What is more telling are those who right ‘straight acting’ as I’ve actually met them too and they were surprisingly NOT straight acting at all.
Brian
The HuffPost piece entirely misses an important distinction. There’s nothing wrong with *being* masculine. The criticism, fairly, is how the interest is *displayed* in a profile. The author conflates the two separate issues.
I’ve seen tons of profiles that aren’t filled out except for a few incomplete sentences. If “masc4masc” is one of just a few phrases, or if it’s the only thing listed, then there may well be something off about that user. Too often, people haven’t looked inward to think about who they are and who they want to find. They don’t understand themselves, but they feel they have to write something. The phrase becomes a lazy stand-in for internalized homophobia.
The self-described “masc” guys who I’ve met typically can’t keep up with me when we do a physical activity like biking or hiking. One mocked me for going to a major league baseball game (“why?”) These are men who are afraid to just be gay. They have no idea who they want to date. They text like a teenager, too. Please, guys: think critically, spell better, and write more. Be real.