Str8 talk

Why writing “no fems” is actually killing your dating game

Does your dating profile say anything along the lines of “no fems” or “masc4masc”? If so, you’re actually hurting your chances of getting laid.

In a new column, Joe Stone points to a recent study published in Computers in Humans Behavior titled “Masculine Guys Online.” The study surveyed 144 gay and bisexual men about their online dating habits and found that the majority of them viewed guys who write things like “masc 4 masc,” “no fems,” or “real men only” as “significantly less intelligent, significantly less sexually confident, and significantly less dateable than their counterparts.”

“Well, duh,” Stone writes. “This is the least surprising experiment since the one which found that people who post inspirational memes have lower levels of intelligence (have you ever noticed how it’s never your successful or happy friends posting whimsical nonsense about how to achieve success and happiness?).”

Related: Are Modern Gay Men Obsessed With ‘Seeming Straight’? This Guy Thinks So.

He continues: “The proliferation of gay dating profiles that feature a headless torso alongside a description of ‘no fats, no Asians, no fems’ is one the most depressing aspects of modern gay culture. For me, it’s doubly troubling–first because people are so plainly ignorant, and second because they seem comfortable advertising that ignorance so freely.”

Kind of like Trump apologists and supporters.

Of course, none of this is really new. Others have been pontificating over the whole “masc4masc” thing for a while now.

Back in November, blogger Jeremy Alexander published an op-ed titled Fellow Gay Men, Stop Glorifying Toxic Ideals Of Masculinity about the issue of overly aggressive gay men obsessed with dominance.

“My theory is simple,” Alexander wrote. “These men want to overcompensate for their queerness, because on some level, they see their queerness as negative and that their sexual orientation makes them a ‘sissy’ by default.”

Related: This “fabulous husky gaysian” comedian is so over your white supremacy

He added: “Strangely enough, being seen as ‘straight acting’ is something desired by a large demographic of gay men, hoping to embody these traits of the heterosexual male in their gay lifestyle.”

And then there was this meme that began circulating on social media last month:

Well? Is it? #masc4masc #masculinity #genderroles #gay #carriebradshaw #satc

A photo posted by Queerty (@queerty) on

But there is a plus side to all this, Stone says.

“At least men with Masc4Masc profiles let us know straight off the bat that they probably aren’t evolved enough to deserve our time,” he writes. “John Waters famously said, ‘If you go home with somebody, and they don’t have books, don’t fuck ’em.’”

Related: Jack’d Has The Perfect Response To “No Fats No Fems”

He concludes, “Perhaps if we adopted the same policy with the masc-only brigade it would encourage some much-needed introspection. At the very least it will help them achieve their aim, since surely never having sex with another man is the finale frontier in being truly ‘straight-acting.’”

What are your thoughts on guys you write “no fems” or “masc4masc” on their dating profiles? Take our poll and share your thoughts below.


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55 Comments

  • barkomatic

    I’ve got my preferences, but I find that guys which include that on their profiles are jerks.

    • miserylovedme24

      That’s exactly how I feel. Having personal preferences is one thing, but actually stating it in the douchebaggy way that so many do is just a complete and utter turn-off and is a strong indication that said guy will turn out to be an awful person.

    • Scribe38

      I agree. Most of them are jerks and a big portion are still in the closet. When I was still dating, I asked for dudes that had my same interests… fishing, football, and woodworking, etc. I think it’s a better way to find folks you will fit in with.

    • NateOcean

      Same thing with “VGL”.

      I’ve dated a few men whose photos didn’t do them justice… They could do modeling work… Yet they didn’t mention that.

      On the other hand several went out of their way to include VGL in their profile; a clear indication that they would be anything but that.

  • Gates

    If you aren’t attracted to feminine men you should post it, be truthful. It will save hurt feelings in the long run. Everyone has their preferences and it doesn’t matter the reasoning behind it. It is what it is Just because I am not a chubby chaser doesn’t make me a jerk anymore than they’re a jerk for expecting me to be attracted to someone who obviously doesn’t care enough about themselves to stay in shape.

    • DarkZephyr

      People have different views of masculinity and femininity however. You never know if your views will match up with the other person’s.

    • nitejonboy

      Um, you’re kind of a jerk, and you’re a body shamer.

    • Jack Meoff

      Your comment may have sounded a bit more sincere if you had not dug the knife in at the end by saying ‘who obviously doesn’t care enough about themselves to stay in shape.’ That comment alone shows you to be judgemental and elitist and quite frankly lacking in common social graces. This article is not about expecting people to hook up with people who are not their type, it is about your attitudes towards people and how you interact with them. You have just proven the point the author of the original article set out to make.

    • miserylovedme24

      Good, keep putting that stuff in your profile. It’ll warn guys ahead of time that your personality is trash.

  • truckproductions

    ever notice how queerty and other anti-masc police types never care much for people writing no fats?? they always focus on the no fems part.. I’m sure they’re also fine with guys who say they prefer taller men.. or shorter men.. all of those things are fine.. but heaven forbid someone actually be attracted to the more masculine among us and suddenly it’s the end of the world and called shaming..

    • miserylovedme24

      Agreed, I noticed that as well. Why focus only on the fem part?

  • frankcar1965

    It’s bunch of BS, If you are not attracted you are not attracted, it’s that simple. I don’t want fem and that’s the way I am. You don’t have to be a big hulking man but just don’t be a twisting big queen either.

  • PRINCE OF SNARKNESS aka DIVKID

    Cravenly lie instead — it’s the best policy

    • DarkZephyr

      Or be honest in a way that isn’t insulting. OR maybe even get to know a person before you dismiss them right off the bat without worrying about “masc4masc”. People have different standards of “masculinity” and “femininity” anyway. Its kind of useless to select people to talk to by that criteria. I have met guys who think anyone who bottoms ever is “feminine” no matter how butch their mannerisms might be.

  • PRINCE OF SNARKNESS aka DIVKID

    dissimulation is sooo much more appealing

  • He BGB

    How disappointing when they say how masculine they are in their profile, you meet them, and when they open their mouth to speak, a purse falls out. Or a bouquet of flowers or a strand of pearls.

  • yeahright

    The writers here are such typical lefty idiots. Their lack of self awareness is typical and amazing.

    Here we have a stupid article crying about “no fems, etc” and calling people who prefer masculine “stupid” (last I recall, namecallers are generally a**holes and ignorant and to be ignored – better to prefer masculine than an a**hole anyday). So this site does these stupid articles basically saying how gay men should act.

    But go to another article with the daily pics and lo and behold every pic is of a masculine guy, no fats, no fems. Typical left – do as I say, not as I do. So they get gays to hate on each other and they also reach deep into gays pockets with promoting the same images of masculinity that they whine and whine and whine about. Chances are that they writers on this site are not attractive (as most writers aren’t), are miserable gay men, are gay men who view masculine imagery in private and then give lip service to pc bullsh*t.

    How can anyone pay any attention to a site so blatantly hypocritical?

    • DarkZephyr

      I don’t think speech patterns and mannerisms affect physical appearance. You can’t accuse pictures of promoting mannerisms and speech patterns.

    • DCguy

      Notice how ANY time there is an article about maybe not being a dick that somebody starts screaming about “Liberals” or using the word “Lefty”.

      Awww, the right wing motto, “Common courtesy and not being a dick is wrong”.

      Here is an idea mister no reading comprehension. Try looking through the article again. They didn’t say that people who prefer masculine were stupid. It said that people who put “No Fems” in their profile were perceived as stupid by other people on the site.

      So either you can’t read, or you were purposely lying about what the post said to make your anti-lefty point. Oh wait, you’re a guy who uses “Lefty” as an insult….yeah, guess you’re lying. We will just call you KellyMAN Conway.

    • Mo Bro

      Bullseye, on the money, bingo, dead-on, nail on the head, and a dozen other metaphors praising the accuracy of your statement.

  • Creamsicle

    The couple times I’ve chatted or met up with a guy who included a “no fems,” type of line in his profile he just talked about being masc the entire time and I got really bored since apparently that just involves shitting on other gay guys while still flipping your wrist and ordering the grossest light beers on the menu.

    The more a guy advertises his masculinity the less likely I am to believe him. Plus I prefer nerdy and geeky guys to jock types anyway.

  • Paco

    The problem I have with the masc4masc profiles is wondering if I meet their criteria for what is masculine since it is a highly subjective opinion on what is actually masculine. Will I be masculine enough or should I just not waste our time.

    Rather than wonder, I choose to assume I won’t live up to their idea of masculinity and avoid meeting up.

    It’s been my experience that those guys tend to carry themselves unnaturally, almost like a living caricature. A stiff gait when walking and standing like a statue for fear something less than masculine might show itself in their movements. Very carefully controlled and not very natural or attractive.

    • phallictomato

      “The problem I have with the masc4masc profiles is wondering if I meet their criteria for what is masculine since it is a highly subjective opinion on what is actually masculine.”

      So true.

      I think people are generally afraid of dating fem guys because I remember one thing Dan Savage once said in his podcasts I think it was… that it’s a sort of protection mechanism – because if someone is deemed to be gay (even if they aren’t), it can lead to, say, some homophobic skinhead wanting to pick a fight with you. I think that’s why a lot of guys don’t want to date fem guys because they don’t want the possibility of having to defend themselves against some homophobe. Lesson: take some karate classes/self defense classes – you’re probably going to need it anyway at some point in your life, whether you’re masculine or feminine, gay or straight. Having to defend yourself just what comes with being gay.

    • tacoma4x4

      So let’s just not write anything in profiles. It’s much better to just ignore and block the queens and fembots instead of being honest about why you’re not interested.

    • DarkZephyr

      tacoma4x4 maybe that’s a good idea, then the ones that think you are a fembot or a queen can block you. The idea of “feminine” and “masculine” is subjective and I can promise you that there is somebody out there that is going to think you have feminine qualities. I can’t tell you how many men I have met who have identified themselves as “masculine” (confusing masculinity with butchness) weren’t all that butch but they sure thought they were.

  • MisterDemand

    Why does it seem like every month theres an article on here about the scurge of “4masc” gay me

    Its just dissolves into either a masc v fem battle or how masculine gay guys are somehow inauthentic gays or heteronormative sell-outs.

    This article is just straight out resorting to name calling and smug prejudicial insults of character. Isnt that the exact thing people claim saying “no fems” does?

    So gay men like masculine guys. Thats okay. Some gay men like feminine guys ( and put that on their profile too). Its doesnt make either a bad person, self hating and definitely not less-than or unintelligent.

    Btw straight men and women have the same prefances for more masculine or feminine partners, its just what people like. Tons of guys dont way a “afraid to break a nail” girl and tons of girls want a sensitive-type guy. Its just personality prefances and should be treated as such

  • PRINCE OF SNARKNESS aka DIVKID

    Ask yourself — honestly — would it be less objectionable or “problematic” to specify “Fem 4 Masc”, or “Masc 4 Fem”, or “no mascs” and if so why?

    • Brian

      Honestly, I wouldn’t chat with any of those guys. Those people are declaring that people fit neatly into boxes, and I don’t believe that fits reality. Can a feminine guy play sports and have a 6-pack? Can a bearded man listen to Beyonce? Can a “masc” guy sing along to the radio at all? It’s absurd.
      …And 4 is a number, not a word. How “masculine” are you if you speak like a 9-year old?

  • tacoma4x4

    It has absolutely zero to do with “fitting in with the straights” and everything to do with being attracted to naturally masculine men. I like deep voices and strong hands, and a guy that isn’t afraid of hard work, sweat and dirt who doesn’t care if he showered this morning. What I don’t like is thinkin I’m talkin to a woman on the phone or smelling perfume from the other room when he walks in the door, or some limp wrist following me through the store. Its embarrassing because ‘real men’ don’t act that way. If I wanted a fem I’d date women.

  • CaliKyle

    I happen to be almost exclusively attracted to guys who are stereotypically feminine in appearance and demeanor. If I put “fem only” on a dating profile would I be treated as harshly as the “masc only” and “masc 4 masc” dudes? Probably not. To thine own self be true, especially when your erection is at stake.

    • Jack Meoff

      It would be an interesting experiment to put fem only on your profile and see if the number of hits you get either increases or decreases.

  • ScottInLA

    Are we pretending that that there is actual substance in the gay dating/hook-up world, whether it be apps, online or real life? Whether it’s fem/masc, weight, age, race, etc., the gay world is a cesspool of shallow, judgmental, soulless men. Each person who’s outraged about the masc4masc thing, is also probably saying, ” be fit and cute” on their profile. Get real, please, and don’t pretend that gay men are actually looking for depth.

    • Ander

      “The gay world is a cesspool of shallow, judgmental, soulless men.”

      Wow. Seek help. And explore the definition of “irony.”

    • Ander

      If all the gay men you encounter are “soulless,” it might be worthwhile to gain the insight that you are the common denominator in those encounters. In dating, as in life, we attract to us that which we project.

  • Prax07

    I don’t post my bias’ up front on my profiles, I just block, block, block the guys I know I won’t be interested in beforehand. And then, if after talking and getting more pics of the guy, if then it appears he’s too feminine, I’ll just say I’m not interested. I prefer masc men, just how it is. If a guy has pink walls, stuffed unicorns, long nails, appears to be plucked and primped, or wearing makeup, that’s all signs we’re going to get nowhere.

  • Brian

    The self-consciousness is only one part of the turn-off. It’s also the labels, the assumptions, the boxes, the jargon, and using numbers instead of words. I hope to find a man who can speak in sentences. It’s been ages since I messaged someone demanding “rt” “masc4msc” “2nite.”

  • JAW

    I find it funny how queerty tries to create issues. But almost daily they have a big post of close to naked muscle, fit guys with near perfect faces and bodies. Very seldom do they post pics of Joe Average. Perhaps sites like this are the bigger issue.

    There are plenty of guys looking for fems, fats (the bear community is big), twinks old Poz, etc.
    No reason to not put that in your profile as to yes or no.

  • Chris

    So gay men — who already have a reputation for being worse than dogs on the prowl — reduce theirs odds of scoring by writing stuff on their online profiles. In other words, our success rates drop to merely being well above the average straight guy’s? And the downside to no longer a dog on the prowl is?

  • OzJosh

    In my (fairly extensive) experience the “masc4masc” and “no fems” types are almost invariably lousy sex – unless you like someone who is entirely focused on themselves, often out the door before you come, and comes riddled with various strains of paranoia and neuroses about the sexuality. Even worse are those who like to pretend they’re “straight” and just day-tripping in the gay pool. But there’s another way the “masc4masc” types are missing out too. Having discussed this with out, aware close friends, I’ve discovered that even those who are about as masculine as you can imagine often harbour some kind of insecurities that are hangovers from being bullied as a teen or just the more general societal association of homo with sissy. They still fear they will be seen and judged as less than fully masculine by someone, so they would never respond to a “masc4masc” or “no fem” type – even though it would be a good bet that they’d be more masculine than whoever was at the other end of the deal. The whole thing is shrouded in layers of bull**** and the sooner everyone jettisons such stupidity the better.

  • Dez

    I’ve been with the same man for over ten years now and while I’m not super flamboyant in my demeanor I wear androgynous clothes and am proud to be considered fem.; and my man is very butch- former marine, current cop, total top and super hot. So while I don’t know much about the dating world I believe that gay men who like fems are actually more masc- not as a way to try and mirror Hetero relationships but as a natural attraction. That’s why I just have to laugh at “masc” guys that aren’t into fems bc all that means to me is that the “masc” guy is a big old bottom.

  • Jack Meoff

    I am dumbfounded at the number of comments here that show that many of you either didn’t read the article clearly (or at all) or have tragically misinterpreted what the author said. Nowhere in the article does it state that people should hook up with others that are not their type be it fats or fems or whatever, and nowhere does it state that if these people are not your type that you are stupid. What it does say is that if you are the type to show blatant judgement and discrimination against these people by announcing it on your profile that you are “significantly less intelligent, significantly less sexually confident, and significantly less dateable than their counterparts.”

    The bottom line is to write your profiles stating what you ARE looking for rather than what you aren’t looking for. It is possible to get your message across without being discriminatory or a judgemental jerk.

    • truckproductions

      I’m wondering if YOU actually read the article yourself. the first line says it all. not only does it suggest we shouldn’t say “masc4masc” but it also suggests inherent homophobia for those who do. It’s a complete judgement with little basis. I don’t like short guys so I say I like tall men.. is that shaming short men? no, it’s doing exactly what u say is ok.. saying what we do like. if masc is what guys are attracted to they should say it proudly just like someone who like kink should say it.. And of course there are men who wear masculinity like butch drag but so what? if that gets some people off why are YOU shaming THEM for that? It’s a SEX CHAT site not some match.com site where the guys are looking for more than sex.. My god, people are allowed to have whatever sexual tastes they like with consenting adults.

    • Jack Meoff

      LOL Truck you seem to have read some things into that article that aren’t actually there. I’ll just leave it at that.

    • Mo Bro

      Try as you might to impose your liberal standards on everyone else, there is no affirmative action in hooking up.

  • PRINCE OF SNARKNESS aka DIVKID

    Please, enough of this type of deliberately outrage-baiting articles. This Buzzfeedification is like a vampire feeding on division. We need to come together more now than ever even if that means ignoring petty grievances that really don’t matter

  • My2Cents

    I never responded to those ridiculous descriptions mainly because I had no quantitative way of self-analyzing to determine if I fit that description. Yes I was a bodybuilder but I hated football. Would I have to learn about basketball and such? I don’t normally queen out but I could present a bitchy comment if need be. They would have needed to provide a checklist to determine my masculinity was up to their standards so I just ignored them. It good to know that was also a self preservation technique to avoid jerks.

  • Mo Bro

    Nothing worse than approaching a hot guy only to have him open his mouth and a bouquet of flowers comes out.
    So, yeah—no fems.

    • DCguy

      Awwww, how cute, the Trump supporter who keeps attacking “Liberals” is scared of something that seems “Too Gay”.

      Sorry they are so terrifying to you there snowflake.

    • Mo Bro

      Not scared, just grossed out. Big diff.

    • DCguy

      Uh, no, it isn’t

  • ErikO

    I’m not into femme/effeminate men either. I know some men who like them and prefer them and that’s great for them.

  • azianboy

    Also those people who provide list of things they don’t like, instead of things they like.

  • Black Pegasus

    This article was recycled from just a couple of months ago.

  • Armiya

    Be careful saying stuff like that. Any time you point out that out to the editors here, your future comments (like mine have) will be needed approval to post, because Queerty doesn’t want anyone to dare question their reasons or posting a recycled article, much less be critical of their editorial board…strange because they’re pretty critical of everything themselves.

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