Dale Mcalpine, the 42-year-old British street preacher arrested (and released) after telling a gay community police support officer that being gay is a sin, is suing for false imprisonment and unlawful interference with his right to freedom of expression. He maintains he’s not a homophobe, just an opportunist.
Tallskin
No point me making any comments about this religious nutjob cos the religious fuckwits who haunt queerty will give me so many negative comments that my comments will end up hidden.
Religious gays are like turkeys voting for an early christmas
Cassandra
Atheists who complain about homophobes are like hookers complaining about whores.
BamBam
Tallskin:
I love you! I am also so sick of having to be lectured on why I should go to a “progressive” church. I am not broken, I am not scarred, and I am not trying to reconcile faith and sexuality. I only get on my knees for real men, not jesus.
Tallskin
Cassandra, says – “Atheists who complain about homophobes are like hookers complaining about whores.”
Not sure that makes any sense, but perhaps it does to you. Did it take you long to make that up?
Difficult question coming up, so brace yourself and grab your crayons to pen a reply.
But, why is it invariably the religiously afflicted who are always banging on and on about the evils of homosexuality? I never see atheists being homophobic.
Bill Perdue
Cassandra. Did your make-believe lover jebuz feed you that line? Because it’s pretty clumsy, even for a christer.
Religion is the enemy. Religion is humankinds greatest tragedy.
Cassandra is a religions joker. Or is she a religions joke? Who cares?
Bill Perdue
Cassandras Sermon on Bandini Mountain No. 3,612 (B) in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1…..
Tallskin
BamBam: You are not alone. We atheists are a growing force. You don’t need a sky pixie or the supernatural to provide morality or ethics.
Think of god as being a manifestation of human morality, that’s all. And it’s used by powerful men to control the population with promises of a non-existent after life
Cassandra
Tallskin
Why do atheists always insult and malign others?
There are many homophobes who are atheists, even on atheist websites. They aren’t hard to find. Atheists appear to be as split on homosexuality as the rest of society – about 50/50.
Given that the rest of society is religious, that means religion doesn’t predict support for civil equality – most of the supporters of gay rights are religious people just as most of the opponents are religious people.
What is hard to find are atheists who actively support civil equality for GLBTQ people. Name one atheist organization that is actively working for civil equality for GLBTQ people.
Maybe you don’t see the homophobia in atheists because you don’t see that atheism itself is a prejudice. Many racists don’t see the anti-semitism in their communities, many anti-Semites don’t recognize homophobia in their communities.
As for my statement that confused you – hooker and whore are synonyms, two words that describe the same thing. Atheism and homophobia are the same thing as well – prejudice. The expletives that you use to describe people of faith is proof of that. Bill’s posts are proof of that.
Both of you sound exactly like homophobes bashing gay people.
Tallskin
I think there’s probably a difference between generations here.
I personally would’ve left the arsehole alone, patrolling along with his homophobic banners. But then I am used to it. I’ve had it all my life.
But I think younger gays here in the UK are not prepared to put up with this shit anymore. And since gays have now infiltrated the armed forces and police force, they aren’t prepared to be abused with no right of reply. That coupled with the UK population’s overwhelming rejection of religion led to this arsehole being arrested.
He was arrested in the same way that any loon shouting abuse at people on a street corner would be arrested for a breach of the peace. The religious here in the UK have lost their privileges.
Justin_Activist
@Cassandra: GetEQUAL is preparing to hit the churches soon Ms. Christian. They will hear our demands. We will interrupt your worship time until we get our rights. Religion needs to stop lying about us.
Get angry and get involved.
Demands = Rights
Tallskin
Cassandra, you’re still making no sense. Most people in Europe are atheists of one kind or another.
To be atheist means, literally, to be A Theist, that is to say WITHOUT GOD. Nothing abusive or mad about that. But on the contrary is sensible and rational, considering there is no god.
you ask: Name one atheist organization that is actively working for civil equality for GLBTQ people. Answer: Er most I think. Certainly here in the UK I can say with certainty that the religious, muslim, christian or jew, sikh, hindu (not buddhist) have all been TOTALLY OPPOSED to gay equality.
I have no experience whatsoever of the religious ever having helped with gay equality. Here in the UK we find the relgious are the enemy.
Cassandra
The derogatory way you, Tallskin, and Bill, talk about religion and religious people is identical to the way homophobes talk about GLBTQ people.
So what if you can point to the actions of some religious people and find fault? Homophobes do that to GLBTQ people on a regular basis. When you point a finger at this street preacher from the UK, you are doing exactly the same thing Pete Labarbera does when he posts his naughty photo’s from Folsom Street fair. You see something you don’t like, he sees something he doesn’t like (supposedly in both cases), and you both judge millions of people by the actions of some.
“We atheists are a growing force.”
This is truly ironic, because it is exactly the same argument homophobes make – they are a growing force, they are the majority, they are the future. Bigots use that posture a lot, in Germany, in Rwanda. Your statement is less than accurate as well, for though the ratio of atheists to religious people varies in populations, worldwide it is, and remains steady at about 1-3 percent, depending on the poll.
Bill, when his only argument is insults and lies, is exactly like any homophobe who calls people “fa**ot” and blames GLBTQ people for HIV/AIDS.
You and Bill and BamBam are identical in morals and ethics to Fred Phelps, “Porno” Pete and any other homophobe. You just target a different group of people.
Homophobes only hate 10% of humanity though, while atheists hate >90%.
And of course, the only thing that atheism has to offer is that malevolent contempt for other human beings. It has no moral insight, no ethical insight, offers no guidance, only an abusive judgment against most of humanity.
Tallskin
Cassandra, you seem incapable of constructing a logical argument. To equate resistance against the evil of religion with homophobes is just absurd. It is, quite frankly, the bully running home to mummy in tears whining about the boy he’s been bullying suddenly turning on him and giving him a bloody nose.
I have to remind you here that the homophobia of western society originates in christianity (coming from Judaism).
Before christianity became the state religion of the roman empire there were no anti gay laws. But within a few years of the megalomanical dictator, Constantine, Emperor of Rome making the minority cult of christianity the state religion the first laws against homosexuality were passed.
Within a hundred years of christianity becoming the state religion of the roman empire the ancient world’s free and easy attitude to sex in general, and gay sex in particular was gone and a new and evil time began,- a dark age for gays that has lasted for 2,000 years and is now coming to an end.
With all this in mind your statement that : “the only thing that atheism has to offer is that malevolent contempt for other human beings” is simply ridiculous.
What atheism offers the human race is openness, a breath of fresh air and an end to the mind-boggling mental turpitude of the last 2,000 years.
Cassandra
Tallskin
Gee, still being abusive and insulting.
“To be atheist means, literally, to be A Theist, that is to say WITHOUT GOD.”
Actually, no. First off, a theist is something else.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theist
the·ism
? ?/??i?z?m/ Show Spelled[thee-iz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
1.
the belief in one god as the creator and ruler of the universe, without rejection of revelation (distinguished from deism).
2.
belief in the existence of a god or gods (opposed to atheism).
While atheism means:
a·the·ism
? ?/?e??i??z?m/ Show Spelled[ey-thee-iz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
1.
the doctrine or belief that there is no god.
2.
disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings
“Nothing abusive or mad about that. But on the contrary is sensible and rational, considering there is no god.”
Here’s where the problem occurs. Religion is the accumulated experiences of most of humanity for as long as humankind has been leaving records. It includes personal testimony of direct experiences of the Divine, as well as analysis, art, music, poetry, and history of religious people.
At its essence, religion is people stating “I have experienced God.”
Atheism declares “No, you haven’t”. And it does so without any evidence. Atheism is a declaration based on some people’s lack of evidence, based on what they have not observed, rather than a declaration based on evidence, based on observation. It is not sensible for someone to say “I don’t experience God, therefore, no one else ever has”. It isn’t sensible, after all, for a homophobe to say “I don’t experience same-sex attractions, so no one else ever has”. Nor is atheism rational. To conclude that your lack of experience of something intrinsically disproves everyone else’s experiences is not rational.
Nor is atheism based on science. Science cannot neither confirm, not refute the existence of God, because by definition, God extends beyond scope of science.
Atheism really is just a prejudice, wherein some people reject the testimony, and malign the character of most of humanity.
“you ask: Name one atheist organization that is actively working for civil equality for GLBTQ people. Answer: Er most I think.”
er most you think. In other words, none that you can identify and provide a citation for. I’ve looked and haven’t found any. I’ve been asking here and other websites, no one has provided even one example. I’ve seen other people ask here, and elsewhere, and no one has provided even one example of an atheist organization that is actively working for GLBTQ civil equality.
“Certainly here in the UK I can say with certainty that the religious, muslim, christian or jew, sikh, hindu (not buddhist) have all been TOTALLY OPPOSED to gay equality.”
Your certainty is erroneous, for there are religious groups in the UK, like UFMCC, that support civil equality for GLBTQ people. Of course, the UK is not the whole world, though UFMCC, a gay embracing Christian denomination, is the largest gay organization in the world, with congregations around the globe.
googling just a little bit, I found:
http://www.affirmationscotland.org.uk/congregations.htm
“St James’ Pollok, Glasgow (Church of Scotland)
At St. James’ we seek to affirm the dignity of all people.
We welcome into the life of our community of faith people of every age, gender, race, country of origin, ethnic heritage, sexual orientation, mental or physical abilities or condition, education, marital or economic status, cultural, or religious background.
ALL PEOPLE ARE WELCOMED AND AFFIRMED
at the Lord’s Table and at ours.”
http://www.gaychurch.org/Find_a_Church/foriegn_nations/UK.htm
Welcoming Gay Friendly Churches in the United Kingdom – UK
74 churches
Living Springs MCC Bath MCC
Journey MCC Birmingham, West Midlands MCC
Birmingham & West Midlands – Quest Birmingham Quest
Liberty Church Blackpool Blackpool Non-denominational
MCC Bournemouth Bournemouth MCC
Community Church Of St Michael & All Angels Bournemouth Non-denominational
Brightwaves MCC Brighton Brighton MCC
Cotham Parish Church Bristol Anglican
St. Mark’s Church Bristol Anglican
St. Paul’s Church, Clifton Bristol Anglican
St. Edward’s Church Cambridge Anglican
Cambridge – Quest Cambridge Quest
St. Edmund’s Dartford Dartford Anglican
St. George’s Church Dorchester, Fordington Anglican
St. Peter’s Church Dorchester Anglican
St. John the Baptist Church Essex Anglican
St. John Baptist, Danbury Essex, Chelmsford Anglican
St. Mark’s Church Essex, Southend-on-Sea Anglican
All Saints Church, Southend Essex, Southend-on-Sea Anglican
St. Albans Westcliff Essex, Westcliff Anglican
Glasgow – Quest Glasgow Quest
St. Peter and St. Paul Godalming Anglican
St. Mary the Virgin (Great Shelford Parish Church) Great Shelford Anglican
Holy Trinity and St Mary’s Guildford Anglican
All Hallows Church Leeds Anglican
St. Nicholas Church Leicester Anglican
Holy Cross Roman Catholic Parish Leicester Roman Catholic
St. Bride’s Liverpool Anglican
St. Luke in the City Team Ministry Liverpool Anglican
All Saints Margaret Street London Anglican
St. Anne’s, Soho London Anglican
St. Barnabas Parish Church, Bow London Anglican
St. Botolph’s Aldgate London Anglican
St. James, Piccadilly London Anglican
St. John’s, Fulham London Anglican
St. John’s, Hyde Park London Anglican
St. Luke’s, Charlton London Anglican
St. Martin in the Fields London Anglican
St. Matthew’s, Westminster London Anglican
St. Michael and All Angels London, Barnes Anglican
St. Paul’s, Clapham London Anglican
St. Peter, Walworth London Anglican
St. Thomas, Charlton London Anglican
St. Thomas the Apostle London, Finsbury Park Anglican
MCC of East London London, East MCC
MCC of North London London, North MCC
MCC of South London London, South MCC
Church.co.uk London Non-denominational
Grace Catholic Church London Community London, South East Old Catholic
London – Quest London Quest
Grace Catholic London Roman Catholic
The Church of Our Lady of the Assumption and St. Gregory London, Soho Roman Catholic
MCC Manchester Manchester MCC
St. Thomas the Martyr Newcastle Anglican
MCC Newcastle Newcastle MCC
St. Anthony’s Community Church Nottingham Roman Catholic
St. Aidan’s Church Sheffield, Manor Anglican
St. Marks Church Sheffield Anglican
Merseyside Mission Southport, Merseyside Old Catholic
St. Agnes Church Stockport, North Reddish Anglican
All Saints’ Church, Stoke Stoke on Trent Anglican
St. John the Evangelist Suffolk, Bury St. Edmunds Anglican
St. Mary’s Parish Church Suffolk, Woodbridge Anglican
The Well Chapel Suffolk, Witnesham Ecumenical
Saint Luke’s Pallion Sunderland, Pallion Anglican
St. Mark, Millfield Sunderland, Millfield Anglican
MCC Torbay Torbay MCC
St. Paul’s Church Tunbridge Wells Anglican
The Parish of St. Paul with St. Nicholas Wokingham Anglican
All Saints Church York, Sancton Anglican
The Church of the Blessed Sacrament Yorkshire Arian Catholic
Yorkshire – Quest Yorkshire Quest
Scotland 1 church
Holy Trinity MCC Edinburgh MCC
Wales 2 churches
Nazereth Community Cafe Church Abertridwr, Caerphilly Non-denominational
Stepping Stones Community Church Rhymney Non-denominational
Was your use of the word “all” carelessness, or deliberate deception, Tallskin?
That’s just Christian churches in the UK, using one keyword (welcoming and affirming) for gay friendly churches. In the U.S., the reformed Jewish congregations tend to be very supportive of civil equality for GLBTQ people. There are also Muslims who support civil equality for GLBTQ people in the U.S., and Sikhs, and Hindu’s. You’ve provided nothing substantive to indicate that it is radically different in the U.K.
You couldn’t cite one gay friendly atheist organization by name, I just gave you 74 gay friendly churches from the UK alone.
“I have no experience whatsoever of the religious ever having helped with gay equality. Here in the UK we find the relgious are the enemy.”
Your lack of experience does not define reality, Tallskin, and that’s the key problem with atheism. It attempts to define the totality of everyone’s experiences by the lack of experience of some. Just like homophobia attempts to define the experiences of all GLBTQ people by the lack of experience of heterosexuals in general.
In the U.S., the majority of all support for GLBTQ civil rights comes from people of faith, and you’ve offered nothing substantive to indicate that things are any different in the U.K.
The reality is that since most people in the world are religious, most of anything will be done by people of faith. That includes most of the support for civil equality for GLBTQ people.
Cheryl Wright = ZZZ's (John From England)
@Cassandra:
Cassandra who cares?
Why should WE care about religion?
Lets go back to basics.
Please tell the gay/bi/trans commenters why we should listen to you and be part of your club.
And then tell us what you are doing towards the Family Research Centre?
Tallskin
Cassandra, I cannot be bothered even reading your verbiage in its entirity! God’s teeth!
But I do take umbrage at this statement: “In the U.S., the majority of all support for GLBTQ civil rights comes from people of faith, and you’ve offered nothing substantive to indicate that things are any different in the U.K.”
I cannot speak for the USA, but I can speak with some experience of being here for all of my life in the UK and having been heavily involved with gay politics and I can say with 100% certainty that the public face of anti-gay attitudes is, invariably, without question, religious.
The people who opposed us, still oppose us, are the religious, the churches, the leaders of churches. And the people who supported us were the left, the secular and the atheists. There may well have been religious support but I was/am not aware of it.
James_From_The_Great_City_of_Cambridge
Cassandra, YOU insult Atheists FIRST by comparing us to hookers then cry we’re being abusive when people call you out on your hypocrisy. Typical religious hypocrisy. I’m going to break some news to you; you are crazy. Crazy people don’t know they’re crazy but trust me, you are. Guys, she spends all day, literally, arguing about religious nonsense on Queerty. Look at this thread where she’s pushed it to nearly 500 comments, mostly as a result of endless, endless rants on her fictional boyfriend in the sky. Careful, the crazy in this thread might blind you…
http://www.queerty.com/gay-mormon-ty-mansfield-is-getting-married-to-a-woman-20100415/comment-page-6/#comment-305516
Tallskin
And Cassandra, what are your thoughts on the fact that our homophobia comes from christianity?
Do you deny that religion started homophobia here in the West?
Cassandra
“Cassandra, you seem incapable of constructing a logical argument.”
Gee, another personal attack, another insult. Is this evidence of the nature of atheism?
“To equate resistance against the evil of religion with homophobes is just absurd.”
That is both a distortion of my argument, and a dismissal.
Frankly, your characterization of religion as evil is an indicator of prejudice, since you are judging the entirety of religion, and religious people, by the actions of some. That is prejudice, Tallskin.
It is true that there are destructive and even evil beliefs within religion, but then, the same is true of science, philosophy, economics, politics, and just about every sphere of human endeavor. Atheism doesn’t vilify those parts of human life though.
At the same time, religion is full of liberating, beautiful, empowering beliefs, calls to compassion, inspires social justice, teaches equality and justice. Atheism makes no call to compassion, it incites malevolence and malice. Atheism doesn’t inspire social justice, rather, atheists routinely lie about the social justice being done by everyone else. Atheism doesn’t teach equality, it dismisses most of humanity as unequal, inferior, to atheists.
And atheism is not about challenging the specifically destructive beliefs in religion, no, it attacks both the good and the bad, and all religious people. That is prejudice.
“It is, quite frankly, the bully running home to mummy in tears whining about the boy he’s been bullying suddenly turning on him and giving him a bloody nose.”
That is a dishonest dismissal, and it suggests that you are not capable of honesty.
“I have to remind you here that the homophobia of western society originates in christianity (coming from Judaism).”
That is an over-simplification. The current arguments for justifying homophobia originate in the Judeo/Christian/Islamic literalist traditions. However, homophobia was presented, not dominant, but present, in pre-Christian Rome and Greece, and in other cultures. It was simply justified with different excuses.
“Before christianity became the state religion of the roman empire there were no anti gay laws.”
That too is not exactly accurate in several ways, and, it relies on a very limited test for anti-gay prejudice. Setting aside the fact that Rome was polytheistic and really didn’t have one ‘state religion’, there was a bias regarding homosexuality, just different from the one in our culture today, and not as pervasive.
“the ancient world’s free and easy attitude to sex in general, and gay sex in particular was gone”
This again is not an accurate statement. The ancient world had a very complex and nuanced attitude about sex, one that ranged from very conservative to all but incomprehensible by today’s standards.
So your entire premise is based on a less than accurate foundation. You’ve cherry-picked and simplified, distorted and summarized something very complex and varied, just as homophobes and other bigots do. Which is understandable, prejudice of any kind, including atheism, requires over-simplification; it is a simple way of responding to the complexity of life.
“With all this in mind your statement that : “the only thing that atheism has to offer is that malevolent contempt for other human beings” is simply ridiculous.”
And another derogatory dismissal. Whenever someone labels an argument as ‘simply ridiculous’, I know they have no facts or reason or logic to use to rebut it.
“What atheism offers the human race is openness,”
What, pray tell, is “open” about dismissing the experiences of most of humanity? What is “open” about ignoring all of the contributions that religious people have made – most of all positive contributions to all societies in human history by the way, to fixate on the crimes and mistakes of some?
What is “open” about deciding that because you have not experienced God, no one else ever has, no matter what they say?
The world got a good look at what atheism offers in the way of openness when the Berlin Wall was constructed. We say more of that openness in the Chinese government’s actions at Tienanmen Square. The Stasi taught the world what systemic atheism can do.
As the world stands today, those that are systemically the most atheist are among the least open societies.
Atheism doesn’t offer openness, it cannot, for it is intrinsically, by definition, closed to one of the predominant, nearly universal human experiences – experiencing the Divine.
“a breath of fresh air”
There is nothing fresh about atheism. Like all prejudices, it has been around in one form or another for as long as humans have been leaving records detailed enough to describe it.
“and an end to the mind-boggling mental turpitude of the last 2,000 years.”
Given how degrading you and Bill, and most atheists on the net are, turpitude is not a word you should bring to anyone’s attention.
Atheism offers nothing to discourage or even rebuke “vile, shameful, or base character; depravity” as the insults from you and Bill, and Richard Dawkins demonstrate very clearly. Atheism models contempt and malice, it instantiates close-mindedness and bias, and its advocates encourage the suppression of other people.
The only thing atheism offers is a negation of other people’s experiences of the Divine – and that offering is intrinsically dehumanizing and anti-social.
Bill Perdue
This is Bandini Mountian where the Rev. Cassaddra and her/his pretend lover got married.
[img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3067/3054671715_3d7a042dcf.jpg[/img]
Cassandra
Tallsking
“Cassandra, I cannot be bothered even reading your verbiage in its entirity! God’s teeth!”
Yet I’ve been reading your text in their entirety, and making an honest effort to address your statements. So, which of us comes from a more humane perspective?
“But I do take umbrage at this statement: “In the U.S., the majority of all support for GLBTQ civil rights comes from people of faith, and you’ve offered nothing substantive to indicate that things are any different in the U.K.”
I cannot speak for the USA, but I can speak with some experience of being here for all of my life in the UK and having been heavily involved with gay politics and I can say with 100% certainty that the public face of anti-gay attitudes is, invariably, without question, religious.”
Your word for it is not enough, Tallskin. After all, as an atheist, you reject the word of people of faith.
You see the face you want to see. In seconds, I found 74 UK Christian organizations that welcome and embrace GLBTQ people as equals. You still haven’t provided even a single atheist organization that fights for civil equality for GLBTQ people.
“The people who opposed us, still oppose us, are the religious, the churches, the leaders of churches.”
Not entirely. Plenty of non-religious people oppose civil equality for gays and lesbians. Homophobic religionists are not even a majority in their faiths, they are simply the most vocal.
“And the people who supported us were the left,”
Christianity is pretty evenly split on the ‘right/left’ divide, though that line isn’t even drawn in the same place on your side of the Atlantic as it is on mine. This where the prejudice of atheism comes out – you define all people of faith by the individuals you can find fault with, just a homophobe defines all GLBTQ people by the individuals he finds fault with, or a racist defines all people of color by the individuals he finds fault with, and so on.
That is prejudice – judging all members of a defined group by some of its members.
“There may well have been religious support but I was/am not aware of it.”
That you are unaware of something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. In this case, it indicates that you blind something.
Homophobes pull the same thing, saying that they are not aware of, for example, long-term, committed same-sex relationships, and therefore, none exist.
You may not like hearing it, you may not realize it, but you employ exactly the same arguments that homophobes use, that racists use, that misogynists use, that any kind of bigot uses.
Cassandra
James_From_The_Great_City_of_Cambridge
“Cassandra, YOU insult Atheists FIRST by comparing us to hookers then cry we’re being abusive when people call you out on your hypocrisy.”
Unless or until TallSkin’s post, post number one, is removed as hate speech, you are not just wrong, but obviously wrong.
My statement “Atheists who complain about homophobes are like hookers complaining about whores.” which you’ve basically represented, because the comparison is between two kinds of complaint, rather than between atheists and hookers, appears in the second post here, and is a paraphrase of TallSkin’s post, the first post here:
“Religious gays are like turkeys voting for an early christmas (Post 1)”
In that post refers to people of faith with an obscenity. TallSkin, Bill and company have then included personal attacks in the form of insults about my intelligence and character in nearly every post.
“Typical religious hypocrisy.”
Maybe you don’t understand the words you just used.
“I’m going to break some news to you; you are crazy. Crazy people don’t know they’re crazy but trust me, you are.”
You falsely chastise me for doing something, and then proceed to do the exact thing. Guess that proves something.
“Guys, she spends all day, literally, arguing about religious nonsense on Queerty.”
That is a odd fantasy with creepy stalker-esque overtones. It also is false.
How do you plan to argue that your lack of religion indicates moral or ethical superiority, when you show so little in your posts?
Homophobes routinely dismiss GLBTQ people who are repudiating homophobia as ‘crazy’. You are not doing anything that homophobes do, and since one of my messages is that atheism is only a prejudice, when you act like a homophobe, you support my message.
Cheryl Wright = ZZZ’s (John From England)
You asked “Why should WE care about religion?”
That’s really the wrong question. You don’t have to care about religion, but, atheism is very different from “not caring” about religion, it is only and entirely a condemnation of religion and religious people, atheism is entirely about caring, in a negative way, about religion.
The question that really matters is: Why should we care about prejudice?”
And the answer is that prejudice, of any kind, including atheism, degrades and dehumanizes, it nurtures destruction and oppression. It doesn’t matter what other institution or sphere of human life prejudice excuses itself with, prejudice itself is the problem.
Science has been used to justify homophobia, racism, sexism, and various ethnic prejudices. Does this mean we should label all scientists with obscenities, as TallSkin and Bill do to people of faith?
Of course not. It means we need to pick out the specific ideas, assumptions, conclusions, and individuals within science who promote prejudice, criticize them and refute their claims.
The same is true with philosophy, and politics, and economics, and the arts. You don’t discard the baby with the bathwater, and you don’t discard all of music just because Wagner was an anti-Semite. You tackle the specific ideas and individuals who harm others.
That is how you fight prejudice. And that is what we have to do for prejudice in religion – rebuke, refute, reject the specific ideas that cause harm, and criticize and challenge the specific individuals who promote oppression.
Succumbing to the prejudice of atheism, reviling all people of faith with obscenities as TallSkin did, doesn’t reduce prejudice, it doesn’t fight homophobia, it nurtures prejudice, and therefore nurtures homophobia.
Do you know the story of Heracles and the Hydra? The hydra was a multi-headed monster, and Heracles at first tried to kill it by cutting off its heads. But as he cut off a head, new ones grew in its place. In the end he had to cauterize each neck so it couldn’t regrow and then cut off the one immortal head, the source of the monster’s power.
Prejudice is like that. We can’t just legislate away this one, and mandate away that one, and grow out of the next. Because the minute our attention moves to something, they grow back. We can’t end racism and embrace homophobia, or prejudice against religion.
Look at how racism has regrown in the U.S. lately. Our society celebrated homophobia, institutionalizing it into state Constitutions, and in a historical blink of an eye, racism is rampaging through our society again.
If we leave even one head, like the prejudice against religion, on the hydra that is prejudice, all of its head grow back. We have to kill the monster of prejudice itself, in all its forms.
And that means that not only do homophobes have to recognize and live with and accept the fact that GLBTQ have different experiences than they do of sexuality, it means that atheists have to change too.
They have to acknowledge that just because they haven’t experienced the Divine doesn’t no one else has, and it doesn’t mean that religious people are inferior. They have to learn to be content in their lack of experience and accept that other people do experience something.
Atheism, to stop being a prejudice, has to change from “there is no God” to “I haven’t experienced God and I’m OK, but your results may vary and that’s ok too”.
BamBam
Cassandra, you need a life. Bad.
Darren
Personally if I saw this guy in the street and he started mouthing off at me and my guy, I would have just punched him, but thats just me…
Ofcourse I would have provoked him first into hitting me… then had him arrested then I would have sued him and whatever church he represents… be smart let these idiots hang themselves…
Cassandra
BamBam
“Cassandra, you need a life. Bad.”
If I had a dime for every time a homophobe has used that line after I have extensively refuted anti-gay theology, I could feed the homeless in my town for decades.
But I dropped back by to add another point.
Fundamentalist atheists here frequently complain “Where are the liberal Christians, the gay Christians, when the homophobes are spouting Scripture” or “What are liberal Christians doing about homophobia” and so on.
Well, the fact is that the abusive and degrading behavior from Bill Perdue, the obscenities from TallSkin, and all of the other anti-religious hate speech that shows up on gay blogs and in discussions about religion and homosexuality in general,
deter a lot of moderate and progressive, liberal, gay and straight Christians from participating at all. I put up with because I recognize that homophobia and anti-religious prejudice, atheism, are two heads on the same beast.
By being abusive, folks like Bill Perdue limit the online gay religious allies to those few of us with the thickest skin. And of course, they are then creating the very situation they complain about – lack of visible criticism of anti-gay theology.
James_From_The_Great_City_of_Cambridge flamed me for my posts on the Ty Mansfield thread, but I went nose to nose with Scotty and refuted every one of his claims about the Bible.
That information may not change Scotty’s mind, or not for years, but could be very useful when your Aunt Peg the Southern Baptist comes to you looking for an excuse not to condemn you, if you can only challenge what she’s been told all her life.
Flinging obscenities at people, as TallSkin did, isn’t going to make fundamentalist Christians accept GLBTQ people, much less abandon their faith, anymore than the obscenities from Fred Phelps has made any healthy GLBTQ person become heterosexual or abandon his/her partner, lover, boyfriend or girlfriend.
If you want allies, you can’t call them obscenities.
Pete
Cassandra, you have a profound misunderstanding of atheism. Atheism simply is the lack of belief in a god or gods. It doesn’t proclaim any kind of doctrine and doesn’t disparage anyone else’s beliefs.
I am an atheist simply because I’ve not seen any evidence that convinces me that any sort of deity exists. People’s eye-witness accounts of deities are so different and contradicting that I’ve yet to find two people that can even agree on what God is, let alone have the same experience of that God. If you, or anyone else has some concrete evidence that God exists, I’m happy to listen to it.
I also find it pretty funny that you’re trying to tell an atheist not to stereotype the religious, yet you are stereotyping all atheists.
You gave a list of churches that accept LGBT individuals. I can’t think of a single atheist organization that does not accept LGBTs. Most organizations currently fighting for LGBT rights are not inherently religious — some of the individuals in those organizations are likely religious, and surely some are atheist. Personally, I’ve never encountered an atheist who is homophobic. Sadly, I’ve encountered hundreds of religious bigots.
Clark J.
Cassandra, you make all these fantasy comments with rose colored glasses when it comes to YOUR religious ilk and their treatment of gay people. Until you’ve personally experienced it (in a tangible way, not providing vaccant links off the net with statistics) and the in your face, agressive, hostile approach of YOUR religious types….don’t go preaching to the gay community to be more understanding of you hypocritical religious inidviduals. Instead, go on religious websites and educate them on gays….do you do any of that, huh? do you actually go on religious websites and write up this drivel (not even read by most of us) defending and educating their ignorance of gays?
Doubtful. But would I EVER expect consistency in the religious community? the community that is driven by hate, hypocrisy, war, ignorance, and cherry picking verses of the Bible that doesn’t apply to their agenda? never.
Don’t come in our home preaching to us. You’ll be met with exactly what you’ve been served.
p.s- it’s possible to be spiritual with faith (as many gays are) and not an athiest, but not believe in a MAN MADE religion that is stemmed by alienating demographics of the populations every single generation. You enjoy that religion….but you’re doing a VILE job of making any of us convert. Heck, the little *ounce* of respect I had for you MAN MADE religious types went out the door after reading you spew your banter. Wouldn’t expect any different from people who believe a woman will burn in hell depending on the type of cloth she’s wearing….LOL.
JC
Cassandra, that’s because MOST ALL athiest organizations are in favor of gay equality and gay rights. Where I live; the biggest fundraiser in the city for gay rights was funded and orchestrated by an athiest group last Fall. The religious wack jobs with their chemical imbalances were the ones trying to bring it to a stop. They obviously lost in court because as is the case with most all religious individuals, they lack logic.
Tom Morris
Cassandra asked for an example of an atheist or humanist organization that is fighting for gay rights.
British Humanist Assocation say on their website:
“Humanist principles lead the BHA to support equality and oppose discrimination and humanists have been deeply involved in campaigning against discrimination, from homophobia to racism, for decades.”
The BHA promoted an event this year in London against homophobia and transphobia alongside GALHA, the Gay and Lesbian Humanist Association. The BHA have been campaigning with the Accord Coalition against letting religious schools teach their own distorted version of sex education – the primary concern of which is to prevent them from including homophobic content or content that is inequitable for gay people.
The BHA has been campaigning to strengthen the rules on homophobic bullying in schools.
The BHA and other secular groups in the UK have been involved in the campaign against the Ugandan anti-gay law.
I’ve been involved in secularist campaigning for the last few years and have never heard anyone IRL express anti-gay sentiments at all. The overwhelming majority – whatever their sexuality – are allies of gay rights and are very concerned about homophobia and strongly support gay rights. On the very rare occasion that one sees homophobia in secularist or atheist fora online, it gets stamped down very quickly.
Finally, reading list time. Go read Greta Christina’s blog posts on being an atheist in the queer community.
http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2008/12/being-an-atheist-in-the-queer-community.html
http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2008/12/how-to-be-an-ally-with-atheists.html
Jaroslaw
Tallskin – you know from my other posts I’m Catholic, practicing less and less but I’ll always believe in God. And you not believing in it doesn’t threaten me in the slightest. Live and let live.
But it has not been 2000 long continuous years of Gay hatred since Christianity started – Boswell wrote in one of his books (I have several I don’t recall which one at the moment) that homosexuality was pretty accepted at different times and places in the Christian world; for example nuns & priests were writing love letters to (same sex) others in the Middle Ages.
And while the ancient world may have had a free wheeling attitude toward sexual matters, it was pretty gruesome & brutal in a lot of other ways. I only point this out because you and Bill seem to imply that Christianity is responsible for all the evils in the world.
And while Cassandra kind of drives me nuts too, (and I do agree that the vast majority of homohatred/political action is religiously motivated) it is a bit dismissive of you to say “I was not/am not aware of Christian support for Gays.” She gave you a huge list which you seem to have ignored. Also for the record the Quakers here in the USA have always been supportive.
Bill Perdue
@Jaroslaw: http://www.gospelaccordingtohate.com/
@Cassandra: http://jesusneverexisted.com/
Cassandra, as you can see this is not a fertile ground for your sick missionary work.
Give it up.
No one here is going to validate your supersitions. No one here is confused by your apologias for homohating bigots.
Give it up.
Everyone here understands perfectly how Desmond Tutu’s comment on christer missionaries applies to GLBT folks. “When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said, ‘Let us pray.’ We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land.”
Give it up.
We’re all heartily sick and tired of your drivel.
Tallskin
HI Jaroslaw,
I have Boswell’s book, but I understand that his ideas are rather suspect and are largely wishful thinking, after all he was a christian and was trying to prove christianity was not as nasty towards gays as the evidence tends to suggest.
But, and it’s a big “but”, let’s assume he is correct and there were pockets of safety for people to be openly expressive of their same sex desires; Boswell does say himself that these pockets were exceptional and were soon wiped out.
And the fact that they were by definition isolated islands of safety amidst a raging storm of homophobia would tend to indicate the surrounding christian ocean was very unfriendly towards same sex love.
I am not implying the pagan/ancient world was some kind of paradise, it was indeed savage and barbarous. But then so was the medieval christian civilisation that succeeded it- read Umberto Eco’s “The Name of The Rose” for some idea of this barbarity, with people being publicly pinched to death with red hot pincers all in the name of God. The word ‘faggot’ of course coming from US term for the pile of wood upon which men were burnt alive for expressions of same sex love- in a deeply christian culture.
A big difference between the two worlds, apart from the free expression of same sex love in one and not in the other, is that christian civilisation proclaimed & still proclaims itself of a higher moral order to the pagan, and now atheist. When in fact it endorsed barbarisms of all kind with holy justification.
But think about this – it was not until religion started to decline in the West with the Enlightenment and the rise of science and atheism that we as a civilisation started to think public executions, slavery, torture as bad; we started to think that gays and women are equal to straights and men.
As for Cassandra’s list of religious bodies that helped gay equality here in the UK, well I can only repeat that I had no experience of these, and was only aware of secular and atheist assistance.
Hyhybt
Atheism is a far greater enemy even than homophobia.
Or rather, they both come from the same enemy.
Cassandra
Pete
You wrote: ‘Cassandra, you have a profound misunderstanding of atheism. Atheism simply is the lack of belief in a god or gods.”
That’s funny, Pete, because your definition does not match the dictionary definition of atheism, nor that of Encyclopedia Britanica, or atheist websites.
Atheism::
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no god.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
And to be clear, Disbelief: 1. the inability or refusal to believe or to accept something as true.
So atheism is not “I don’t believe in God”, which is simply an expression of doubt, but rather “I know there is no God”, a very different thing, a statement of surety that rejects the testimony of others.
“It doesn’t proclaim any kind of doctrine”
Which oddly enough is a point I made – that the only thing atheism proclaims is “there is no God”.
“and doesn’t disparage anyone else’s beliefs.”
LOL. Please don’t fib. By asserting “there is no God” it intrinsically disparages the beliefs of those claim God exists.
Of course, the posts of TallSkin and Bill Perdue are evidence of just how maliciously atheism disparages the beliefs of people of faith.
“I am an atheist simply because I’ve not seen any evidence that convinces me that any sort of deity exists. People’s eye-witness accounts of deities are so different and contradicting that I’ve yet to find two people that can even agree on what God is, let alone have the same experience of that God.”
And here, precisely, is where atheism is revealed to be only a prejudice.
People’s eyewitness accounts of most things are different. Take ten people to a movie, and you’ll get ten different impressions, because different aspects of the movie will be meaningful to different people, and the more detail you ask of them in describing the movie, the more different their accounts will be.
If you cannot find two people to agree on what God is, then you have simply been ignoring most people of faith. I think you are simply exagerating for effect though, because congregations are full of people who agree on the nature of God, and there is tremendous agreement on the nature of God across denominations and across faiths.
“If you, or anyone else has some concrete evidence that God exists, I’m happy to listen to it.”
Concrete evidence is a very convenient standard to apply to something that by definition, transcends the concrete and quantifiable.
But your test is fraudulent. You live in a world where every day we take for granted the existence of things that are not concrete, like emotions, food preferences, thoughts, opinions about the quality of music, art, etc.
Atheists, like everyone else, accept it when someone says “I like chocolate”, although, that is something for which there is no concrete evidence. Atheists, many of whom pretend to respect science, take on faith tenets of science for which there is no concrete evidence, or for which they themselves cannot ever produce evidence.
Atheism is a prejudice because those who have it dismiss, without evidence, the experiential evidence of all people of faith solely because of who they are and what they experience.
Just as homophobes do to homosexuals.
Ironically as well, you refuse to believe people of faith because they cannot give you “concrete evidence” for the existence of God, yet you cannot provide concrete evidence that God does not exist. Atheism makes a claim “God does not exist” that it cannot prove, for which it cannot ever have sufficient evidence to prove.
“I also find it pretty funny that you’re trying to tell an atheist not to stereotype the religious, yet you are stereotyping all atheists.”
I find it sad that you lie about my posts, since I have done no such thing.
“You gave a list of churches that accept LGBT individuals. I can’t think of a single atheist organization that does not accept LGBTs.”
Just because you cannot think of something doesn’t mean it does not exist. That’s the whole problem with atheism, it concludes that anything the atheist does not experience, does not exist. Existence is not defined by your experiences, Peter, or lack thereof, alone.
“Most organizations currently fighting for LGBT rights are not inherently religious — some of the individuals in those organizations are likely religious, and surely some are atheist.”
Nice fudging of definitions there, Peter. Most people who are fighting for GLBTQ civil equality are religious, because most people in the world are religious. Most people doing anything are religious. The largest GLBTQ organization in the world is a Christian denomination.
“Personally, I’ve never encountered an atheist who is homophobic.”
I’ve encountered many. In fact, it is my experience that atheists are as likely to be homophobes as the rest of society – about 50/50. My experience has been that the most obsessive and vicious defenders of ‘homosexuality is sin’ are atheists, who use it as a reason to spread their prejudice against people of faith.
“Sadly, I’ve encountered hundreds of religious bigots.”
And I’ve encountered thousands of religious people who are not.
But, none of your remarks about your experiences about religious people changes the fact that atheism is nothing more than a prejudice.
Cassandra
Clark J.
“Cassandra, you make all these fantasy comments with rose colored glasses when it comes to YOUR religious ilk and their treatment of gay people.”
Actually, I have not. Please, do not lie about my posts, that behavior substaniates the premise that atheists are incapable of behaving morally or ethically.
Your false accusation is an empty dismissal, indicating contempt, which of course, is one of the symptoms of prejudice.
“Until you’ve personally experienced it (in a tangible way, not providing vaccant links off the net with statistics) and the in your face, agressive, hostile approach of YOUR religious types….”
How arrogant of you to tell me what I have, or have not experienced. Homophobes do that all the time to GLBTQ people, so you are behaving exactly as other bigots do.
“don’t go preaching to the gay community to be more understanding of you hypocritical religious inidviduals.”
Since I’ve made no such argument, your argument is a false accusation. This is what often happens when people embrace a belief that does not teach values like honesty and compassion, respect and empathy. Since atheism teaches nothing but the rejection of other people’s experiences of God . . .
“Instead, go on religious websites and educate them on gays….do you do any of that, huh? do you actually go on religious websites”
Actually, I’ve spent a significant chunk of my free time over the last twenty years refuting anti-gay theology on religious websites, like beliefnet.
“and write up this drivel (not even read by most of us)”
If you didn’t read it, how can you determine whether it is drivel or not?
Oh, but you did read it, and you couldn’t refute anything I actually wrote, so you dismiss it, and give the impression that you have no moral or ethical foundation to guide you.
“Doubtful.”
Because, of course, anything you haven’t experienced doesn’t exist, particularly anything involving people of faith, because you see people of faith as intrinsically inferior, beneath you, wrong.
“But would I EVER expect consistency in the religious community? the community that is driven by hate, hypocrisy, war, ignorance, and cherry picking verses of the Bible that doesn’t apply to their agenda? never.”
It is funny that you mention cherry-picking, since that is entirely what your little critique is – cherry-picking out the actions of some people of faith, and using it to define all people of faith.
Homophobes do that too, you know. They cite some “bad” gay person or “bad” thing some gay people do, and then say “That’s what being gay is all about”. You are articulating bigotry, just like any homophobe. You target people of faith, they target GLBTQ people, but both you and homophobes are using the weapon.
“Don’t come in our home preaching to us. You’ll be met with exactly what you’ve been served.”
So you are admitting that atheism is intrinsically prejudiced and abusive.
“p.s- it’s possible to be spiritual with faith (as many gays are) and not an athiest, but not believe in a MAN MADE religion”
Oh, are there animal made religions?
“that is stemmed by alienating demographics of the populations every single generation.”
That is bigotry talking, and is not an accurate definition of religion.
“You enjoy that religion….but you’re doing a VILE job of making any of us convert.”
I’m trying to convert you, or anyone. Maybe you should actually read what I write, instead of imagining arguments and projecting them onto my words. I’m arguing that prejudice is wrong, all prejudice is wrong, including atheism.
“Heck, the little *ounce* of respect I had for you MAN MADE religious types went out the door after reading you spew your banter. Wouldn’t expect any different from people who believe a woman will burn in hell depending on the type of cloth she’s wearing….LOL.”
I’ve seen so many homophobes use the exact same argument it isn’t funny or convincing. Every phrase you used indicated pervasive contempt for most of humanity simply because of who they are and what they experience.
Cassandra
“Cassandra, that’s because MOST ALL athiest organizations are in favor of gay equality and gay rights.”
Prove it. After all, atheism demand concrete proof of the existence of God, refusing to believe the experience based testimony of people of faith, so how can I take you word for it?
Now, being ‘in favor’ is a very different thing from ‘actively working to create’, which is what I asked for. And your vague and unsubstantiated claim is useless, I cannot go check, research and read about ‘most all’.
“Where I live; the biggest fundraiser in the city for gay rights was funded and orchestrated by an athiest group last Fall.”
Link please. Where I live, the biggest fundraiser for GLBTQ civil equality have been funded and orchestrated by people of faith, and the same in true of San Francisco where I used to live.
The reality is that since atheists in the U.S. make up 1 to 7 percent of the population, depending on the pollster, atheists cannot ever be the predominant force of anyone’s civil equality.
“The religious wack jobs with their chemical imbalances were the ones trying to bring it to a stop.”
Your remark above, as much as it may have made you feel good to write it, is bigotry. It is the same message that homophobes scream about homosexuals, so you are no better than any homophobe.
You target people you think are bad, they target people they think are bad. You make excuses, they make excuses.
That is what prejudice is all about.
Cassandra
Tom Morris
“Cassandra asked for an example of an atheist or humanist organization that is fighting for gay rights.
British Humanist Assocation say on their website”
I will look them up. It would have been nice if you’d provided a link to their website, instead of just the quote.
So that’s one GLBTQ supportive organization in the UK that is atheist, and 74 GLBTQ supportive organizations in the UK that are Christian.
As for Greta Christina, I have read a number of her essays on Alternet, and she is, in my opinion, the equivalent of Pat Robertson. Ironically enough, in the first link you provided, she engages in exactly the same rhetorical shenanigans that she accuses people of faith of doing.
Do you have a credible source to recommend instead, one who does not substantiate my thesis that atheism is only a prejudice?
Cassandra
Tallskin
“I have Boswell’s book, but I understand that his ideas are rather suspect and are largely wishful thinking,”
This demonstrates one of my subpoints. Atheists tend to be just as committed to rejecting theology that doesn’t condemn homosexuality, as homophobes, and just as careless in their scholarship.
Of course, the reason for dismissing Boswell’s work varies. Homophobes dismiss it because it disproves the basis for anti-gay theology. TallSkin has another reason:
“after all he was a christian”
This is prejudice. According to TallSkin, because Boswell was a Christian, his work is suspect, wrong, meaningless. To TallSkin, a Christian can not have an honorable motive, or be accurate, he can only be up to no good:
“and was trying to prove Christianity was not as nasty towards gays as the evidence tends to suggest.”
Setting aside the fact that quote above is not an accurate reflection of Boswell’s premise in either of his works on homosexuality, what we have in TallSkin’s dismissal is the same thing that homophobes do all the time to GLBTQ people.
Whatever we say or do or feel is just wrong, because of who we are.
That’s what Tallskin just did to John Boswell. That’s what homophobes do to GLBTQ people. That is what racists do to people of color.
That’s prejudice in action.
“But, and it’s a big “but”, let’s assume he is correct and there were pockets of safety for people to be openly expressive of their same sex desires; Boswell does say himself that these pockets were exceptional and were soon wiped out.”
I’d love to see the exact quote.
“A big difference between the two worlds, apart from the free expression of same sex love in one and not in the other, is that christian civilisation proclaimed & still proclaims itself of a higher moral order to the pagan, and now atheist.”
That is a distortion, a gross distortion, of Christianity. A lie basically. Christian theology calls individuals to a high moral order, and, explicitly recognizes that people intrinsically fail to live up to it.
Atheism teaches no moral order at all, and, explicitly violates one of the foundations of morality and ethics.
“When in fact it endorsed barbarisms of all kind with holy justification.”
This lie is a case of cherry-picking out only the bad and using it to define the entirety of religious people. Doing so indicates a lack of anything even approaching a high moral order. But then, Bill Perdue’s posts do not demonstrate anything but a very low moral order. So did TallSkin’s use of obscenity to describe most of humanity, for that matter.
“But think about this – it was not until religion started to decline in the West with the Enlightenment”
Trouble is, religion did not decline in the west during the enlightenment; the political power of the Catholic church declined, in part because of the Reformation. The enlightenment saw the birth of several denominations, each challenging oppressive beliefs in the Catholic church.
“and the rise of science and atheism that we as a civilisation started to think public executions, slavery, torture as bad;”
Neither science, nor atheism, had their beginnings in the enlightenment. Nor did the repudiation of public executions, slavery and torture.
“we started to think that gays and women are equal to straights and men.”
Several years before Stonewall, heterosexual Christian clergy through the first significant (widely publicized by the mainstream press) demonstration in support of civil equality for GLBTQ people. Atheism built the Berlin Wall, people of faith tore it down.
“As for Cassandra’s list of religious bodies that helped gay equality here in the UK, well I can only repeat that I had no experience of these, and was only aware of secular and atheist assistance.”
So, finally, an acknowledgment that something exists beyond TallSkin’s direct experience. But no retraction of his false statement of fact.
schlukitz
The Gospel according to Saint Cassandra.
James_From_The_Great_City_of_Cambridge
Poor Cassandra. Have you so alienated everyone in your life with your crazy religious vitriol that no one will speak to you, which is why you have so much time to be arguing religious nonsense hour after hour, day after day? I hope you’re aware that the percentage of Americans who are openly Atheists is now higher than African Americans, Asians and equal to the number of Hispanics. In fact, the number of Americans who go from a spectrum of believing God doesn’t exist to “not certain” he exists is…you wanna guess? It’s a whooping 59%!!! An additional 16% are agnostic and say they’re not sure…your breed is dying out like they did in Europe. Thank God! (Oh wait…he’s not real. My bad!!) Maybe you should try praying to the Easter Bunny…at least he’s cute and cuddly and brings you chocolate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPtiZGKE–Y
James_From_The_Great_City_of_Cambridge
Excuse me…the percentage is actually 42%, not 59%…my bad. I can admit when I make a mistake, unlike the Pope.
Cassandra
James_From_The_Great_City_of_Cambridge
Gee, a citation from Fox network that is five years old, yeah, that’s really credible. You’re citing right-wing propoganda designed to inflame fear through exageration.
And then your extraordinary loose standards that equate ‘not certain’ with atheist.
Let’s try some links to actual polls:
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/vault/Harris-Interactive-Poll-Research-Religious-Beliefs-2008-12.pdf
God: Believe in 80% Don’t believe in 10% Not sure 9%
http://atheism.about.com/b/2004/12/02/how-many-atheists-in-america.htm
85% of Americans self-identify as Christians. (2002)
Atheists and agnostics comprise 12% of adults nationwide. (2004)
11% of the US population identify with a faith other than Christianity (2004)
85% plus 11% equals 96%. And agnosticism and atheism are not equivalent beliefs.
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/vault/Harris_Poll_2009_12_15.pdf
A new Harris Poll finds that the great majority (82%) of American adults believe in God, exactly the same number as in two earlier Harris Polls in 2005 and 2007. Large majorities also believe in miracles (76%), heaven (75%), that Jesus is God or the Son of God (73%), in angels (72%), the survival of the soul after death (71%), and in the resurrection of Jesus (70%).
Kind of interesting as well:
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/vault/Harris-Interactive-Poll-Research-Further-Details-about-Why-Americans-Who-are-More-Religious-Are-Happier-2008-04.pdf
“Religious people are significantly happier than the non-religious, worry less about their health, and find less frustration with their work. However, religion is not the only place where Americans experience a wide divide in their happiness. Higher education is correlated with higher happiness, older people are happier than younger, and people who rarely feel pressured to act unethically are happier than people who experience such pressures.”
It is kinda sad that the best you can do is fling insults and quote a source that on Queerty, for any other subject, would get you laughed off the boards. Do you even recognize how fundamentally dishonest it was to accept Fox as a citation when you think you can support your bias against people of faith, even as Fox is routinely, and appropriately, rejected here because of its established pattern of distorting data to advance homophobia.
All you’ve done is provide more information substantiating my primary position: atheism is a prejudice, it quacks like prejudice, it waddles like prejudice, it dehumanizes and destroys like prejudice.
Cassandra
And James_From_The_Great_City_of_Cambridge
“I can admit when I make a mistake, unlike the Pope.”
And yet, you made a mistake earlier which you have not admitted to, regarding my post, number 2, in respect to TallSkin’s post, number 1.
Jaroslaw
Cassandra – Boswell’s work is not suspect because he was a Christian. Peer review of his work seems to show he didn’t have as great a grasp of ancient languages as he portrayed himself to have and a host of other things.
Now, I have some questions for you.
A. What do you hope to accomplish with your interactions here?
B. Are you Gay yourself?
Jaroslaw
Tallskin – I don’t know if it is wishful thinking on Boswell’s part – I’ve read a lot of other books as well. Unfortunately he has passed on and can’t answer for himself, but I’m most intrigued by some of the same sex rituals found in ancient Mass books and historical accounts of weddings. You say Boswell himself admits “pockets” of Gay friendly which were soon wiped out. That seems to be pretty objective reporting doesn’t it?
Yes, Christianity proclaims itself to be of a higher moral order than paganism, but who is to say that all acts of any group have been meticulously recorded? I suggest they haven’t been so I’m willing to concede Christians have done horrible things in the name of religion, I also tire of the “who was worst game which I see so often in these types of discussions.” We have so many overlapping things here too – the printing press was developed and records were more easily duplicated and spread around. Education levels were increasing, populations were moving to the cities, Universities and colleges reached more of the population, not to mention everything done in the name of Christianity was religiously motivated. There was an overlap in government/Church functions you must know.
As to the decline of religion giving birth to ideas of sexual and gender equality – I would say two things. Ideas are seldom new, they just seem to happen to take root when it is their time. Not sure how to say the second – so I’ll just jump in. Women’s rights were not possible before labor saving devices and birth control were developed. So to pretend a woman’s movement was responsible for their progress is nonsense. Similarly, until the mass of people were able to read, mediums of mass communication were available AND every waking moment was not devoted to survival, many concerns (sexual and gender equality) were not able to be addressed.
And you’ve made it clear on more than one occasion you were unaware of religious organizations assisting with Gay equality. Is there a reason you can’t make yourself aware now?
Jaroslaw
sorry meant to say NOT everything done in the name of Christianity really was…some of it was done by the government through the Church.
Bill Perdue
@Jaroslaw: OMg! Heavens forfend. Jaroslaw is lambasting. He’s going to turn into a pillar of salt.