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Should Just Cookies Be Evicted From City-Owned Venue If It Won’t Serve The Gays? Uh, Yeah

Thanks to its refusal to create some rainbow cupcakes for local college queers looking to celebrate National Coming Out Day, David Stockton’s Just Cookies bakery in Indianapolis could face eviction.

With the mayor’s office looking into allegations of anti-gay discrimination over its refusal to fill an order for students at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis, Just Cookies’ eventual fate could be getting kicked out of City Market, a city-owned venue that must adhere to Indianapolis’s local anti-discrimination ordinance, which bars businesses from refusing customers based on their sexual orientation. The bakery has been on a month-to-month lease since their lease expired July 31.

“That could be grounds for taking away their stand in the market,” says Wayne Schmidt, president of the City Market Board. “I’d hate to lose them, but we can’t tolerate any kind of discrimination like that.”

Meanwhile, Just Cookies’ husband-and-wife owners David (pictured) and Lily Stockton now are bouncing between their “moral values” excuse and their “it’s a business decision” reasoning for turning down the order. Says Lily: “We no longer do special orders like that. We are too busy.”

And here comes the American Family Association of Indiana! Micah Clark, its chief, posits: “You have to wonder, what rights do business owners have? It’s one thing if someone walks into a store and buys a cookie off the shelf, but (the Stocktons) were being asked to become part of the (National Coming Out Day) celebration. To make rainbow cookies for a special event with which the company has a disagreement — I think that goes beyond the pale of what we should expect companies to do.”

Also, companies should be able to refuse selling decorations for the Puerto Rican Day Parade, green food coloring on St. Patrick’s Day, and anything on Christmas Day!

By:           Ryan Tedder
On:           Oct 1, 2010
Tagged: , , , , , , ,

  • 172 Comments
    • Cam
      Cam

      What business turns down business? So if I do into a Starbucks and order 50 of their to go coffee boxes, according to this business Starbucks is supposed to ask me what they are for and then make a judgement call as to whether or not they support that!?

      This business should be evicted from the city owned stall for breaking city laws, but they should go out of business for being stupidly bad at running a business.

      Oct 1, 2010 at 10:52 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • power2thapeople
      power2thapeople

      @Cam: You almost got it- If you went into a Starbucks and asked for 50 of their coffee to go boxes with Swastikas on them for Nazi Day… They would probably say no thanks. Also, this business didn’t ask what they were for, they were told by the customer.
      Maybe they should be kicked out of the City Market, but as far as you saying they are being stupidly bad at running a business, absolutely absurd! Their business is quite successful. You should put a little more thought in to your posts.

      Oct 1, 2010 at 12:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • frozen north
      frozen north

      @power2thapeople: Nazi’s are not a protected class. In Indianapolis, Gays are (along with Jews, Blacks, Women, etc) So, your “Nazi Day” example doesn’t fly. Perhaps you too should put a little more thought into your posts.

      Oct 1, 2010 at 12:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • number
      number

      As a business they signed a contract to lease a space in a tax-payer supported enterprise and therefore agreed to the the laws of that contract. They violated their contract and should be booted. They can go do business on their own without taxpayer support if they want to, how ever they please. But eff them if they want me to contribute one penny to their narrow minded bigotry. And for God’s sake they were only cupcakes!

      Oct 1, 2010 at 12:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • PLAYS WELL WITH OTHERS
      PLAYS WELL WITH OTHERS

      He clearly stated the reason for his refusal to do business with the group was because they were Gay. If made the same statement towards a Black, Jewish, Asian, Hispanic or any other minority he would be evicted.

      The bullshit of us being the bitchs of society and our accepting second class citizenship is over. Out he should go………

      Oct 1, 2010 at 12:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Flipper
      Flipper

      Evict them now. I”m sure the Indy-area Libertarians (“we support a business’s right to discriminate”) will go and give them plenty of business in a new location.

      Oct 1, 2010 at 1:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Cam: This is absurd to think this.The Gay Pride People came into this “Just for Cookie” business operation and wanted to order Rainbow cookies for their October “Coming Out” party.
      Two issues surface here…The owners of the business have a spiritual right and a business right to NOT take the order.
      This is a free country..and if a business owner DOES NOT want YOUR money…it is his right…
      What I hear for you in an “Entitlement” mantality. Because this store sells donuts or coffee or whatever, that YOU have the right to what you wnat to buy…NO YOU DON”T brainless.
      You can go down the street and find yourself a gay cooking baking company to make your freaking donuts.
      The other issue is…if the owner of the Property sides with the gay people, then he can make a decison, based on their tenant agreement, which is on a month to month agreement, to tell them that he will not renew their agreement, based on his own convictions. He has this right, whether is be right of wrong, morally…He is answerable to God, just like all the gay people will be one day…

      Oct 1, 2010 at 2:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      I’m not done yet!

      Let’s talk about a little senerio here. Let us say, YOU have a business selling coffee, or donuts or wigets. YOU over a some time, put your hard worked time into making decisions to build your company up. YOU have a good product earning company, employing many people.
      You have a Gay Pride organization come into your store and order thousands of cups of coffee, or donuts or wigets for their Coming Out Party…
      You are thinking that you do not believe in Gay lifestyles and do not want to put your business in favor of these people by taking the order…
      You tell the Gay Pride organizer, NO, you do not desire to make cupcakes or cookies, coffee or wigets for this organization.
      The Gay Pride people, instead of going to another business that will do it, they get their banors and signs out to boycott YOUR store. Are you getting this???THIS is YOUR company…What is your answer to this issue now?
      Remember, you are against the gay lifestlye…you have two young impressible girls to explain your views to.
      What kind of a message are you sending?

      Oct 1, 2010 at 2:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • crash
      crash

      This queer says NO!
      Since when have we as a community decided that acceptance is worth sacrificing liberty?! Do business-owners have the right to refuse business; yes. Do we have the right to make the PUBLIC aware of said business-owners politics and encourage the PUBLIC to act; yes. Should we run crying to the nanny-State every time these conflicts arise? NO! If this bakery is evicted, WHAT is the net benefit? None I can see, other than a feeling of smug superiority for some local activists and more ammunition for the “gay agenda” crowd.
      Coalitions must built, not forced. Psychology 101: Negative Reinforcement (RE:punishment) doesn’t motivate anyone to change their behavior. Being a minority is no excuse for group-think and suspension of reason.

      Oct 1, 2010 at 3:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • James
      James

      “If It Won’t Serve The Gays?”

      “If.”

      How about asking them first if this is true or not, rather than assuming and accusing?

      Are gay people tolerant?

      Answer:

      Some are.

      Is supporting “National Coming Out Day” a good idea?

      Depends on what you’re “coming out” to. If you’re “coming out” to a group that doesn’t back away from deception in a smear campaign, I might not want to support your “coming out.” I might want to support your subscribing to some other sort of “identity.”

      When I read this title and see the deception and the accusation, I think: Supporting National Coming Out Day isn’t such a good idea. You shouldn’t loose your business establishment if you support it though. I’m not that mean-spirited.

      Oct 1, 2010 at 3:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CertainPOV
      CertainPOV

      @B. Hill: asks, “What kind of a message are you sending?” The message that you are sending is that you are not only a bigot, but a poor excuse for a business owner.

      You make the statement that this is “free country,” but that doesn’t mean that we are all free to do whatever we want. As a business owner we have rules that we must all follow: we have to report our sales numbers; we have to secure our chemicals; and we cannot refuse to serve a customer because of who they are or what they represent. If a gay-owned bakery received an order for 100 cupcakes with “White Power” iced on the top the bakery should accept the order, regardless of their own personal opinions on racism. There was nothing obscene in the student group’s request. Providing a product or service to any customer is just a sale, nothing more, nothing less. Our salons cut the hair of alot of Republicans, but that doesn’t mean that we support the Republican Party. Our beauty schools cut the hair of alot of Democrats, but that doesn’t mean that we support the Democratic Party. What it means is that we support our CUSTOMERS, that is the reason we went into business in the first place, (but the profit doesn’t hurt either!)

      Oct 1, 2010 at 4:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mike
      Mike

      @ B. Hill. You make a very staunch position. However it oddly sound similar to in the early 1900’s when business owners would put in their window fronts signs displaying NINA. (No Irish Need Apply). There’s this funny thing called equaly opportunity employment and according to the lease the owners signed an anti-discrimination contract.
      If the owners didn’t have time or couldn’t complete the order, that would be one thing. But to go from being able to do the order, finding out the gays want their cupcakes or cookies or whatever the hell they sell, and then not being able to sell them to the students for a plethora of reasons compliments to the hat they are drawing their responses out of.

      Oct 1, 2010 at 4:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Cam: All companies have the right to refuse costumers they deem so…

      Oct 1, 2010 at 4:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @CertainPOV: You fail to see the reason behind my comments…As a business owner, I can sell whatever I want, to any person or NOT! It is “MY” business…Get it???
      I don’t owe you anything because I am in business moron!

      Oct 1, 2010 at 4:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Truth is
      Truth is

      Sexual preference is a choice, a person’s race is not. I say if they don’t agree with that type of lifestyle and choose not to support it, then that is their business. They shouldn’t loose the lease based on this, after serving millions of people and providing excellent food and service for 20 years. If they were offended they should have taken their business else where. There are plenty of other places that sell cupcakes in this city…i.e. Taylor’s, Long’s Bakery, Walmart, etc. #just a thought

      Oct 1, 2010 at 4:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @crash: Well said!!

      Oct 1, 2010 at 4:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Truth is: There are plenty of other business to take their order..Yes, then way to you say they should loose their business…your a double talker!

      Oct 1, 2010 at 4:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Soupy
      Soupy

      truth is, sexual preference is not a choice.

      Oct 1, 2010 at 5:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Cam: What business turns down business? Business owners who live their lives by principals and values
      Those who don’t turn down business are those who are out for the money…they don’t have business ethics, values or principals..

      There…you asked!

      Oct 1, 2010 at 5:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @B. Hill:

      You used the same wordage and made the same gramatical errors as Power2thapeople, and funny enough both of you have the exact same opinion.

      Look, if you guys are going to create fake screenames at least TRY to make your posts sound different.

      I will answer your question, you asked how I would feel if I’ve built up my business and then a group that I didn’t agree with came in and ordered a thousand doughnuts?

      Well
      1. Gays are a protected class in that city, so in that case, I would laugh, and take their money and do the work. Laughing that I was getting a crapload of money from a group of people that I didn’t agree with.

      2. If they weren’t a protected class, lets say I was a Republican and they were Democrats or vice-versa…what would I do? I would Take their money!

      It’s a business you idiot. If you only decide to do business with people that agree with you 100% of the time, you will fail, and are too stupid to run a business anyway.

      This is the problem, bigots don’t live in the real world.

      Oct 1, 2010 at 5:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MAP
      MAP

      City Market is a public accommodations venue, supported by the tax dollars of ALL citizens of the cit/county government (Indy has uni-gov). The ‘phobes can refuse to bake anything they want to refuse in a private venue, but not in one where public accommodation is mandated by ordinance, as it is in Indianapolis–so, B Hill (probably the asshole blue-dog democrat from the 9th Congressional District in Indiana–Hi Baron Hill! Not voting for you!), please advise any business owner that seeks the blessings of liberty to practice religiously-motivated hate to be careful where they locate their jesus-cup and mary-cake businesses.

      Oct 1, 2010 at 5:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @CertainPOV: You articulated some very good points in your comment. You made very good sense, the reason anyone goes into business.
      We don’t know by what governing factor Just Cookies went into business. They may have signed a government grant that regulates or restricts them from discriminating or sales to or by race.
      All I am saying..(and I have owned three business), is that I had the right to take a job or not..No person forced me to take a job that I did not want to take…If a job grant came up that I knew would eventually house a whole bunch of whore, I had the right to not bid on the job.
      If I had the Gay Rights Advocates on my front lawn, demanding that I build them a Gay Community because I was the only builder in town..I could decline doing so, if I didn’t want the job.
      Freedom gives anyone living in the United States the right to say…NO!

      Oct 1, 2010 at 5:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Cam: Well, that is the big difference between you and me…You are a type of person who believes in nothing and falls for anything…

      Oct 1, 2010 at 5:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Mike: So, maybe he did say he would do the order, until he found out that it was for the Gay Rights movement, then retracted doing the order
      Still, does he not have the right to do this, being the owner-operator of His own business?
      What ever happened to free speech and ownership of a business, anyway?
      I did not go into business so the Gay Rights Community could dictate my operation…
      I personally don’t have any hate for Gays…it is their sexual preferences that I do not agree with..Most gay people I have known, who have gay preference, are pretty decent people.
      Its when they start dictating to me what I have to live up too that gets me fired up..I don’t have to serve them if I don’t want to. ..That is why it is called MY business!!
      The Gay Rights Movement is tirelessly trying to invoke an agenda for our laws to include them into society as a family. I totally disagree…and God will judge them one day..

      Oct 1, 2010 at 5:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ruben
      Ruben

      This article is an example of pushing a one sided idea and the complete example of how the gay agenda wants tolerance but does not share the idea when it comes for them to practice that belief.
      Just cookies did not refuse to serve anyone. To write that is purely a fiction. They are good business owners and good people. They will treat anyone the same. They did not want to take part in an event that represented something against their beliefs, that’s all. No one should be made to represent something that they do not believe in. If the KKK came in to your shop and wanted cookies for their event and you didn’t believe in the KKK would you be forced to make their cookies. NO its not= different here. The KKK could go to some racist who would admire money over the cause and make their cookies. The shameful part here is that the University instead of just going to another bakery which they did would try to shut down someone’s business because they do not believe in your cause. Not because they were abusive, only because they do not want to take part in your parade. If you stand with the university in this one than you cant stand against someone making a business print a hate sign on a t-shirt and the business not wanting to do it. There is no difference and the University should be ashamed of itself

      Oct 1, 2010 at 5:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      Well, finally someone understands free enterprise. Most people who have never run a business are in this discussion. And not all people who have run a business are ethical and moral.

      In my world, if I don’t like a business, I will write a review to let the owners now how I feel. They appreciate the candidness of their customers, no matter how poorly they endured the service.
      But, this comment gives the owner something to check on periodically. They can get a gauge on how people are liking or disliking his business.

      I personally don’t like the boycott idea. Sometimes it works and sometimes it only backfires. Business owners alike understand that that it is not a proper way to voice a dislike.

      Its easy to boycott someone when YOU personally don’t have anything to lose…

      Oct 1, 2010 at 6:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RomanHans
      RomanHans

      Dear Ruben, B. Hill, and Truth Is:

      This is a gay website, and according to you we have the right to turn people away just because we want to.

      You all are idiots. Get the fuck out.

      Thanks for the idea,
      RomanHans

      Oct 1, 2010 at 6:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jackson
      Jackson

      @B. Hill: You are correct in that statement; but, that’s not the issue here. The issue is that Indianapolis has an anti-discrimination policy ordinance that bars businesses from refusing customers based on sexual orientation. Certainly, the legality of such an ordinance could certainly be challenged by “Just Cookies”.

      However, you also have to factor in that the guy is running his business in a city-owned property. City officials have to follow their own ordinances or fear legal action from the people they are attempting to protect. If David Stockton doesn’t like city ordinances, he shouldn’t be running his business in a building owned by the city. Although technically still in violation, he probably would be left alone to be a homophobe if he moved to a non-city-owned building.

      Oct 1, 2010 at 6:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chris H
      Chris H

      Man, the crazy is out in full force today.

      I will repeat the truth, in case Ruben, B. Hill, other crazies are reading.

      It’s not a question of IF they signed some non-discrimination agreement. By being in a public venue, they ARE (THEY ARE) under the purview of the local non-discrimination agreement for protected classes. All of your whining about KKK or Nazi’s is misinformed. These are not protected classes in the city’s non-discrimination clauses. Gays, however, are. If they were a private business in a privately owned location, they would have the right to turn away any business they wanted. Unfortunately, that’s not the case.

      You can stick your fingers back in your ears and start yelling now.

      Oct 1, 2010 at 6:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @RomanHans: If you owned the Queerty, you could tell me to get out…But you don’t!!

      Now, do you see what I was talking about Moron??

      Oct 1, 2010 at 6:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Chris H: OK, I will give to this if you are right about what you say…Cookies could have signed an agreement to this, but it isn’t just a given in all situations like you may have intended your comment to mean.

      Oct 1, 2010 at 6:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Jackson: Thank You Jackson for clearing this up for me..I live on the west coast and Oregon state is looking much like Iny these days..

      I think Chris H was trying to say the same thing, but he probably can’t get too many people to listen to him because of his arrogant way of expression and Gay pride…

      Oct 1, 2010 at 6:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • colo43
      colo43

      any business has the option of turning away customers, so come down off your soap boxes and accept it.
      We all have morals, at least i hope we do and i also would not deal with making cupcakes for homosexual’s.

      Oct 1, 2010 at 6:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chris H
      Chris H

      Fuck yes I have Gay Pride you bigoted jackass. If you had any understanding of law instead of pushing your “ITS BUSINESS, DUMMY” ideals, you wouldn’t have to have the law explained to you by someone with an “arrogant way of expression and Gay pride.”

      I wouldn’t have been so pissed if people hadn’t already explained the exact same thing to you multiple times before. But when you repeat your same nonsense over and over without reading, comprehending, or responding logically, you probably “can’t get too many people to listen to [you].”

      Oct 1, 2010 at 7:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chris H
      Chris H

      @colo43: and, you as well seem unable to read or comprehend.

      Please read above so you can see why you are wrong. No, “any business has the option of turning away customers” is simply not true. Have you tried denying business to black people while working in a public venue before? I’ll bet you haven’t. You wouldn’t even think about it, for fear of getting your ASS sued off by the NAACP, the ACLU, and the local government.

      Well I’m sick and tired of being the only class of people it’s still all right to tread on. And if I have to fight in every single fucking courtroom to make sure NO ONE does it again, I will. If you guys want to complain about a “gay agenda,” get fucking ready. There is no gay agenda yet, but damn gay there will be soon enough.

      Oct 1, 2010 at 7:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @<a href="#commentHeather Browning just wanted cookies. No big deal right?

      She asked “Just Cookies” of Indianapolis to bake them for a special event.

      But she was refused service.

      You see, upon learning that Heather’s order was for gay pride “rainbow” frosted cookies destined to be party favors at the Radical Homosexual "National Coming Out Day" event planned the next week at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis just Cookies decided that they could not, in good conscience take the order.

      You see, the owners of Just Cookies, David Stockton and his wife Lily support traditional family values and they stand by their moral beliefs.

      Mr. Stockton told Heather he wasn’t willing to set a bad example for his daughters by supporting this event.

      So instead of looking for a different vendor, Heather Browning is instead seeking to shut them down by having the city revoke their lease for discrimination.

      In reality, David and Lily Stockton simply didn’t want to participate in the indoctrination of our youth into homosexual ideology.

      There are likely plenty of shops willing to bake her homosexual cookies, and some may even donate them.

      But as always, the Homosexual Lobby is viewing this as an opportunity to force their beliefs on others.

      The mayor’s deputy chief of staff, Robert Vane came out with a statement professing, "The mayor was certainly dismayed and wants to make it clear that a person's values, morality and personal beliefs are absolutely not relevant to making a purchase at the City Market."

      But isn’t that the entire point? The owners of Just Cookies are the ones being discriminated against for their "values, morality and personal beliefs.”

      Requiring businesses and individuals to perform work they personally believe is immoral flies in the face of our Constitutional rights.

      But in the New America envisioned by the Radical Homosexuals, churches, private organizations, and restaurants will be required to participate in activities they believe to be wrong, or face the Radical Homosexuals retribution.

      If someone doesn't accept your lifestyle, go to a homosexual bake shop…simple, but don't shove your lifestyle on Just Cookies. Because you boycott Just Cookies, this tells me that you are going to try to put an establishment out of business because they don't accept you..and you will get laws put into place to make people accept you…This is the movement of Homosexuals today and of this issue with Just Cookies. People with conservative family values will fight you all the way…I'm a Christian, but I don't shove my beliefs down your throat..Stay out of mine!

      Oct 1, 2010 at 7:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chris H
      Chris H

      By refusing my service, you ARE shoving your beliefs down my throat. That’s EXACTLY what we are fighting against.

      Once again, as is always the case with blatantly idiotic conservatives, you all seem to be unable to separate the concept of PRIVATE AND PUBLIC SECTOR.

      And once again you run and use an appeal to pathos with buzzwords like CONSTITUTION to try to defend your clearly discriminatory beliefs. Nowhere in the constitution does it protect your right to discriminate in the public sector.

      This isn’t a theocracy, and thankfully, your religious beliefs have NO LEGAL STANDING when it comes to legislation of the public sector.
      You know who else is staunchly christian and anti-gay? The westboro baptist church. But guess what, they are a private organization whose free speech is protected by the constitution. Not a single legal argument has stuck to them because they keep their protests out of the public sector. How’s that for legislating against your “morals and values?”

      This is the same tired old argument that “gay marriage will force churches to perform them!” It’s simply the gay panic defense. Churches, if they aren’t financed by TAXPAYER FUNDS (guess what, I’m a tax-payer too!) are subject to discriminate against whoever the fuck they want. Catholic churches are allowed to not perform divorces for this exact reason, because it’s in THE PRIVATE SECTOR.

      Oct 1, 2010 at 7:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Chris H: This is not about complaining about the Gay agenda…This is about Gay people forcing their will and lifestyle down the throats of businesses and conservative thinking people.
      I am not against people in general, but I am against their lifestyles..Like God says, I don’t hate people, but I hate their sin.
      In my life I have separated these two views. You are probably a pretty nice person, but your way of life has only condemned you.

      Stop insisting on the fact that I must accept your lifestyle sexual preferences…I do accept YOU, but I do not accept your lifestyle…Do you understand this???

      Five years ago I married a woman, who was in a lesbian lifestyle for 20 years..She agrees with me about what I wrote above…Think about this…will You??

      Oct 1, 2010 at 7:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chris H
      Chris H

      @B. Hill: Your wife is the equivalent of an ex-gay auntie tom. You are free to have whatever beliefs you want. Clearly I think you’re an idiot, and you are probably a nice person too. I, too, am able to separate YOU and your lifestyle. Your argument that “well my wife thinks so” is the equivalent to “well I’ve got a gay colleague! I’m clearly not a homophobe.”

      In the same way that you don’t want me to force my “homosexual lifestyle” on you, I don’t want you to shove your religious beliefs and their obviously misguided actions onto me.

      God doesn’t hate our sin. His own son died for our sins the same as yours. The sin that you think homosexuality is? You’ll probably quote leviticus. The Old testament claimed “lying with a man the same as with a woman,” and was considered a toevah, a hebrew term that was considered “unclean” the same way that eating pork, wearing clothes with mixed fibers, or speaking to a woman on her period, is. Do you do any of those things? Then you are guilty of the same type of sin I am. To be truly clear, they were referencing sex with male temple prostitutes, and was fought against because of its practice by polytheists and not because of its inherent homosexuality.

      2nd. You will claim Soddom and Gomorrah was a blanket against gays. False. It was a declamation against inhospitality, which was largely seen as one of the most egregious sins by ancient jews. They were smote because they wished to rape those two angels, not because of the fact that the angels were men.

      3rd. The new testament was the reborn answer to the old testament. You will claim you don’t have to worry about eating pork or wearing clothes with mixed fibers because the new testament overrode the old testament. Well, there goes my toevah in the same way as your toevah.

      4th. Jesus never spoke once against gays, or called it a sin. He, your savior, and supposedly the only source of your divine knowledge, brought a prostitute (allegedly, and that is highly debated) and made her his most prominent and most infamous disciple. He never once decried against gays, and preached love and acceptance of all, regardless of their beliefs.

      5th. The letter from Paul to the romans and to the corinthians which supposedly decry homosexuality weren’t written by jesus himself, but instead by his disciple 20 years or more after his death. In their original dead languages, they are decidedly ambiguous, and are often thought once again to decry against prostitutes and not against homosexuality itself. It is only because of a 1000 years of human translations where the original intent has been lost to English.

      But please, try to distance your moral argument from your religious argument. Can you tell me one logical moral argument against gays that isn’t founded in your religious beliefs? One, perhaps, that is founded in natural law, or secular ethics, instead? Really though, think about it.

      Oct 1, 2010 at 7:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Chris H: You know, I am not trying to get anyone to listen to me…It is you who are upset, using expletives to articulate yourself, telling me that I am saying things over and over again…Maybe I feel the same about you…You don’t understand or believe what I am saying either. But, I am not the one uncomfortable in my skin.’
      I understand that their are laws…between the Private and Public sector.
      What I am trying to tell you is that your lifestyle will never be accepted among people who believe in traditional family values, and you will endure a whole lifetime of sorrows in this area of your life, no matter how Public or Private the laws become.

      So, where are we know? The laws of the land will never address the morality of a person…The laws are made to get people to push and shove people to co-exist, without discrimination of one another.
      No law will be able to do this…We are not turn-key people. We all have bias’s. So, how do we get along?

      You want me to accept your homosexual lifestyle and endorse you as a viable part of humanity…How can I do this? I don’t believe God made us man and man OR woman and woman like you do.

      Only God will make this call…not me! But meanwhile, we fight for our lives and freedoms…

      Oct 1, 2010 at 8:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Chris H: OK, Chris..I am the idiot and you are the deluded one…

      Oct 1, 2010 at 8:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chris H
      Chris H

      Oh hun, at least I followed up my ad hominem with an actual logical argument.

      What did you just contribute by calling me deluded? Absolutely nothing.

      I don’t care what you believe in or what your biases are. Clearly we all have biases, but I don’t want yours affecting my RIGHTS. I am not asking for special rights, I am not asking for more rights than you, as a heterosexual, have. I am asking for the SAME rights. I am asking to be back on equal footing with the rest of the world. I refuse to be a second class citizen because some people misguidedly cannot separate their religious beliefs with legal argument.

      But I honestly think in 50 years this will all be a non-issue. The children of this generation aren’t brainwashed in the same way as previous generations. We are thankfully starting to question the protestant moralism that’s been shoved down our throats. We will all live peacefully and people will recognize how ridiculous discrimination based on sexual orientation or anything else is is. But I am unwilling to wait the 50 years it takes before the citizenship catches up with legality. So I want my rights now, not later. I (and according to you, God) will be the one(s) to judge whether I live a life of sorrows.

      Oct 1, 2010 at 8:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Truth is:
      Good point..now this is truth!

      Oct 1, 2010 at 8:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Chris H: Well ..I believe in 50 years the population in the world will be fatally reduced with men with men and women with women…Think about that…Hun

      Oct 1, 2010 at 8:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chris H
      Chris H

      @B. Hill: Honey bunny, with at most 10% of the population being gay, and the reproduction rate world-wide for both heterosexuals and homosexuals being LARGELY over the minimum necessary replacement rate, we will be burgeoning the 10 billion plus mark in 50 years.

      No need to worry about us darn gays killing the future of the human race.

      Non-human animals (that’s right, we’re in the Kingdom Animalia too!) have homosexual percentages fairly consistent with humans. And their populations haven’t become fatally reduced in the tens of thousands to millions of years that they have been reproducing. In fact, some leading evolutionary biological research has theorized that the presence of gays may actually be a mechanism to increase fertility and population in animals.

      Oct 1, 2010 at 8:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LIgea
      LIgea

      These people have a right to do business with anyone they choose– as of today, this is STILL a free country. If they feel they have a moral obligation to refuse service to a cause they do not agree with they are perfectly within their rights to do so! WTF!? Are liberals so arrogant that they feel they must force the rest of us to cow-tow to their beliefs? Find someone who agrees with you and do business with them! This company will not suffer from your loss of support. Regardless of popular, social beliefs, there is still right and wrong, though they would have you believe otherwise. Just look at the fate of the Roman Empire, arguably the greatest civilization in the history of mankind, and see what befell them after years of accepting homosexualism as an “alternative” way of life. Take responsibility for your decision to be homosexual and stop blaming it on “genetics.” Mankind is born depraved. It is only our volition, strength of character and self discipline that set us apart from the animals.

      Oct 1, 2010 at 8:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Andy
      Andy

      @B. Hill: What are you doing on a sausagefest website?

      Oct 1, 2010 at 8:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chris H
      Chris H

      @Andy: He was originally browsing Morning goods and found something so upsetting he had to stop jacking off and respond.

      Oct 1, 2010 at 8:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @James: It’s so amazing, that anything that has a bit of intellectual truth to it, is promptly put down by these gays.
      Like I said before…they are deluded and darkened in their hearts.

      Oct 1, 2010 at 9:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Andy: I’m not…I am on a Queer site

      Oct 1, 2010 at 9:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Chris H: when did jacking off become immoral? not like you..fudge packer

      Oct 1, 2010 at 9:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chris H
      Chris H

      @B. Hill: Please point out what has any intellectual truth to it about what you stated? Something based in logos instead of pathos? The way I keep seeing it, the only person ignoring any intellectual arguments here is you.

      I’ve shown you the legal answer, I’ve shown you the secular moralist answer, I’ve shown you the biblical answer, I’ve shown you the scientific answer, I’ve shown you more answers than you even asked for. But your only summary response is to ignore them and keep blathering on with emotional appeals.

      And oh man, try asking those Catholics or protestants about whether jacking off is Immoral. Sin of Onan, might I remind you? Aw man, dude, it looks like you ARE going to hell with me! And I wish I packed fudge; peanut butter fudge is mind-blowingly good.

      Oct 1, 2010 at 9:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @LIgea: You make very good sense, but nobody in here believes a word…They are all deluded, darkened in their soul.
      But, then again, there is always hope!

      Oct 1, 2010 at 9:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Andy: Well, being female, this is a natural thing for me to do…why are you here on Queerty? hmmm, yes…going for the unnatural thing, of course

      Oct 1, 2010 at 9:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Chris H: …and I still say you are deluded..which means, your answers are deluded…end of story!

      Oct 1, 2010 at 9:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chris H
      Chris H

      @B. Hill: Is this the ex lesbian wife now? Or are you both ex lesbians?

      Oct 1, 2010 at 9:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chris H
      Chris H

      @B. Hill: And I’m going to respond to your childish response with an equally childish response:

      “I’m rubber, you’re glue, whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you!”

      Oct 1, 2010 at 9:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Alan
      Alan

      I think both sides are wrong! This is suppose to be a free country and someone has a right in disagreeing. Did the owner refuses the business because they were gay or because of the event they were doing it for? If it was for the event he has every right to do it then and it’s not discrimination. I am sure a gay bakery would do the same thing for a someone hosting a function against his believes.

      You cant expect someone to accept your believes if you do not wish to accept they disagree with you.

      Oct 1, 2010 at 11:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joe
      Joe

      @B. Hill:
      If you just took the order you wouldn’t have to tell your girls anything… they should be in school not in the bakery so how would they even know you did the order? Now they will have to explain to their girls since they made such a huge deal out of it… of course they’ll explain how the Gays are horrible people who forced them out of business because we don’t tolerate anyone who disagrees with our “lifestyle”

      Oct 1, 2010 at 11:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Soupy
      Soupy

      The Roman Empire did not fall due to homosexuality. I don’t care how religious you are, but for Christ’s sake, try reading a book that isn’t the bible or written by Harold Robbins. What the hell is happening in history class in your country?

      Oct 1, 2010 at 11:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cassandra
      Cassandra

      B.Hill

      Your posts are not Christian, whether you are or not. Your behavior in your posts is abusive, derogatory, degrading, and arrogant.

      “You know, I am not trying to get anyone to listen to me”

      Don’t lie, that’s sin. Trying to get people to listen to you is implicit in honest communication. If you aren’t trying to be heard here, then you are just posting to be abusive and degrading for the sadistic pleasure of it.

      “But, I am not the one uncomfortable in my skin.”

      But you are, you are. You are raging here at people you don’t know, about something you are completely ignorant about, because this issue makes you doubt yourself.

      “What I am trying to tell you is that your lifestyle will never be accepted among people who believe in traditional family values,”

      You are trying to sell a lie. There is no homosexual lifestyle, and there really is no such thing as traditional family values either. That last one is just an empty label attached to a set of prejudices, lies, greed and ego.

      “and you will endure a whole lifetime of sorrows in this area of your life,”

      Your attempt at prophecy is sin, according to the Bible. You are playing soothsayer, for which the Bible prescribes the death penalty.

      “You want me to accept your homosexual lifestyle”

      No. We want you to accept our humanity. There is no homosexual lifestyle, there is no heterosexual lifestyle, there are only humans living their lives.

      “I don’t believe God made us man and man OR woman and woman like you do.”

      The sentence is just incoherent.

      “Only God will make this call…not me!”

      And yet you are making the call, condemning millions of people. Yet you are not God, very, very, very far from it.

      Remember, God in Christian theology is a God of justice, and you have endorsed and defended and excused and demanded injustice. In doing so, you’ve rejected God.

      “But meanwhile, we fight for our lives and freedoms…”

      No, you are fighting to maintain your special priviledge as oppressors and workers of injustice and discrimination. Neither your lives, nor your freedoms, are at stake.

      Come down from your cross, you are making Jesus look bad.

      Oct 2, 2010 at 12:17 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cassandra
      Cassandra

      “and I still say you are deluded..which means, your answers are deluded…end of story!”

      This answer, among others, indicates that you are a middle school child. You are too young to be on this website to begin with, and your parents should be monitoring your internet usage.

      Oct 2, 2010 at 12:46 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • missanthrope
      missanthrope

      @crash:

      These guys have all the liberty they want to set up their business anywhere else they want, just not in a city-owned venue. There’s nothing in the constitution that entitles every business owner to rent a city-owned space.

      The so-called libertarians here are really bizarre ones who seem to think you have a right to have access to someone else’s property (in this case the city’s property) and break the rules that the leaser sets for you to rent that place and still have a right to do business there.

      Your “rights” are not being violated, you are taking the side of bigots and you are whining like a baby. Stop it.

      Oct 2, 2010 at 1:13 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Aaron in Honolulu
      Aaron in Honolulu

      @Cassandra: Thank you for clearing that up elegantly Cassandra. Yeah B. Hill is a homophobic and hypocritical. Plain and simple.

      Oct 2, 2010 at 2:19 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Aaron in Honolulu
      Aaron in Honolulu

      @Aaron in Honolulu: omit “a”. lol

      Oct 2, 2010 at 2:29 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Aaron in Honolulu
      Aaron in Honolulu

      B. Hill + Truth Is + Crash + Power2thapeople + Ruben + James/No.10 + Ligea + Alan = THE SAME FUCKING PERSON

      Oct 2, 2010 at 2:34 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Aaron in Honolulu
      Aaron in Honolulu

      @B. Hill:

      In response to your comment:

      “…your lifestyle will never be accepted among people who believe in traditional family values…”

      [img]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4112/5043719642_1859aa1cd8_b.jpg[/img]

      Suck on that.

      Oct 2, 2010 at 2:38 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • j
      j

      They agreed to the non-discrimination ordinance by putting their business in the City Market, they violated the agreement. They should be booted out. Where is the controversy?

      Oct 2, 2010 at 7:12 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ddhanna
      ddhanna

      Every business has the right to refuse service to anyone. This business is no different. I can’t believe how many people are just sitting back and letting all these unmoral people take over. This is a matter of what people believe. I do not force my beliefs on others, and I won’t let others force theirs on me.

      Oct 2, 2010 at 8:47 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jason
      jason

      A business has the right to refuse service to unruly or disruptive customers. But it does NOT have the right to refuse business to polite gay customers and still call itself a business.

      If a business wants to pick and choose whom it will serve on the basis of whom the customer sleeps with or the color of the customer’s skin, it shouldn’t call itself a business. Lock the fucking front door and call yourself a residence.’

      A business, by definition, keeps its front door open. An open front door means everyone’s welcome. If your a business owner who only wants a select type of person to walk in that door, put a lock on it – or a door bell for that matter – and stop calling yourself a fucking business.

      Oct 2, 2010 at 9:30 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Giovanni4America
      Giovanni4America

      God bless these folks for having the courage and strength to stand up to deviant social behavior…
      No gays aren’t born that way. They choose that lifestyle.
      The bible says…Adam and Eve AND NOT adam and steve.
      We’re going to but $200.00 worth of their cookies to deal with this pathetic issue.

      Oct 2, 2010 at 11:55 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @B. Hill:

      I have just a few things to say.

      1. You said you had owned 3 businesses at different time. Perhpas your bigotry and refusal to follow proper business activites would be why you can’t seem to keep one business going.

      2. You are on here too much on this topic. It is sounding personal to you. As if you were one of the owners of this company. Becuase you have posted on here more than anybody else, a random poster wouldn’t be doing this.

      3. Lastly, you said that I believe in nothing and fall for everything becuase I said that as a business owner they need to sell products and not sort out their customers into people that think exactly like them. Again, I would point out that you can’t seem to keep any of your businesses going. If you only want to sell to people that are exactly like you I suggest you open up a small shop next door to the WEstborough Baptist Church.

      Oh, and lastly, you sure spend a LOT of time on a gay blog for somebody who is supposedly not gay.

      Oct 2, 2010 at 12:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • mytwocents
      mytwocents

      Point is business is business. If a business is struggling they wouldn’t turn down a chance to make some money so why should any business do the same. The saying “Business is Business and Personal is Personal” stands true. Business need to be careful about what personal views they bring into their businesses and look at “will this hurt or help my business”. The business is not always about the person who runs it but about the community it serves its product too.

      Now, if they were asked to sponsor or promote the event, they can legally say no thanks but thats not what happened here. Them fulfilling the order would not have hurt business, would not have formed a promoting link or sponsorship but would have probably gain business (without people associating them to the cause). Yet by refusing, they could lose more than what it was worth (and now publicly known as against the cause). Also no one has said they can’t have personal beliefs or personal morals but when running a business, you have to pick and choose which ones really matter in that business decision your making.

      Oct 2, 2010 at 8:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      I totally agree with you on “EVERYTHING” you have written, you and many like you in this forum completely miss the point of having the
      “RIGHT” to run a business for profit or failure.
      The reason I went into business had many reasons attached to it, and one of those reasons where to be sucessful and provide for my family.
      With that said, I “STILL” have the right to refuse anyone that I don’t want my business to associate to or with. That is my right as a business owner.
      Now, we have laws in certain cities, like Indianapolis, that have trumped over the business to tell them that they can not discriminate against anyone…This law, whether you believe it or not, has stripped that business owner from running his business the why HE wants to run it, to cow tow to a law that serves to anyone.
      Why is this so hard for you to understand?? I will tell you why!
      Because you, like so many people in this country believe in the one thing that is killing America…”ENTITLEMENTS” You think you deserve something!
      You DO NOT deserve or reserve your right over mine to be in my business affairs…But, the law says, that you do! Why?? Because the law was written to afford your ENTITLEMENT as being legal worthwhile..In my opinion…I disagree with that law!
      If I want to let my business go to shit…IT is MY right and NOT YOURS to tell me I can or cannot!
      When November comes around you have the RIGHT to vote for Obama again…He will show you better than anyone how ENTITLEMENTS will play a role in bringing American into a Socialistic nation.
      Under free trade or Capitalism, the business owner is free to do open business with other companies or NOT. This is why Capitalism is called FREE trade…
      You are coming from the Socialistic viewpoint is what I understand..You like to tell business owners what they can and can not do, who or who not they can do business with…Socialistic viewpoint!

      Oct 2, 2010 at 10:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Cam: Listen…The Just Cookies is a business that you feel you have an Entitlement to operate from the sidewalk outside it’s doors of operation.
      You DON”T have the right to do this, but the law in Indianapolis says you do have the right to expect this company to provide the Gay community with what they ordered.
      This is Socialistic thinking and this is what Obama wants to bring to America…In November, you have the right to vote for his agenda and I won’t be standing around the booth, telling you that you can’t…This is what freedom in America is about.
      Just Cookies has the right of refuse anyone they want, but the laws, which in that city are set up to curb the business owner from running his business the way he wants. He is, by law, to serve anyone…This is not Free! The city has imposed an ENTITLEMENT on this company.
      In the Free Trade Economy…the Gay organization would have to go down the street and find another cookie company that would provide him with his order. This company may be straight too, and not care about your sexual preferences, but YOU are going to MAKE this other company “Just Cookies” an example of discrimination…Your just plain wrong!
      In the Free Trade Economy, the business owner has the right to succeed or fail in his business, without the Federal or City government coming into his business and telling him he can’t.

      Oct 2, 2010 at 10:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Cam: Well, you know CAM..That is what is so nice about Freedom…I can spend my time on any site, gay or not…That is my RIGHT!
      So, what are you telling me?
      Why don’t you go lobby and get a politician to create a law that prevents straight people from entering your gay site?
      You are already telling me that Just Cookies has to provide gay people with their cup cake order..It’s the law Chris H says..
      See, this is a Socialistic viewpoint in the makings and Obama is your man…and Chris H’s man, too!

      Oct 2, 2010 at 10:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @mytwocents: YES…business is business…and I have the right to run my business the way I want to run it when it comes to DOING business with certain people that I don’t want MY business to associate with. This is FREE enterprise!
      Under Socialism, laws get tacked onto business owners by select special interest people, like the Gay Rights Movement, lobbied by politicians who most likely are Gay themselves, trying to gain
      ENTITLEMENTS on the America taxpayers, like health care and entrance into military.
      Gay people want to institutionalize themselves into a culture that still to this day…Does not accept it!
      Want to be gay…that’s fine, but you are bucking up a long road to nowhere. Your sin is just not accepted in the American culture. So continue spending your money to bring a bill to pass..Who knows, America will some day except your lifestyle, but I know someone who has denounced it, and He has the final say about anything…Jesus Christ.

      Oct 2, 2010 at 10:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @jason: You are most correct about this…The reason a business owner has to accept all people, is because of the laws in that particular city or local.
      This does not mean it is right for the city to impose this law though…
      Free enterprise is FREE! but the city is liberal or at best Socialistic and believes that people outside a persons business has the right to butt into it and tell them, who, how, what and when that person should operate. This is a wrongful invasion of a business owners enterprise.
      Only business owners understand how the city and government can impose on them…
      What if I came to a Gay Just Cookies company and asked them to bake me a big order for Straight cookies and they denied my order because they didn’t have the time?
      I would get on the telephone and find another place to order my cookies. Now, that is what I would do…But the Gay organization would put a racial slur on it, like they are doing already to gain support of their lifestyle and show the population what a rejected people they are. That is BS, but you have the right to try!

      Oct 2, 2010 at 11:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @B. Hill: This is what I love about America…You are free to reject my comments and kick me out of this forum. Because it is YOUR forum and NOT mine…something the people in this forum don’t seem to understand…
      You are free to accept anyones thoughts or not..I violated nothing in this forum.
      The people in this forum have used all sorts of language that is of a “put down” nature directed at me to support their position…I have not!

      Oct 2, 2010 at 11:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Aaron in Honolulu:
      Well, I’m sorry about my ignorance to understand how far the Gay movement has come.
      I guess the country is worse off than I predicted…

      Oct 2, 2010 at 11:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Aaron in Honolulu: I stand corrected about how far the Gay movement has come..

      I guess the country is worse off than I predicted…

      Oct 2, 2010 at 11:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Aaron in Honolulu: All you can do is throw your little titles around, labeling people who don’t think like you..
      Grow up baby boy in Hawaii and keep an open mind…So far, it’s been very closed…

      Oct 2, 2010 at 11:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Aaron in Honolulu
      Aaron in Honolulu

      Trolls trolls trolls… The same person is posing as many people to make his/her voice and opinions seem louder. IT’S SO OBVIOUS. How is it that this fake group of people all make the same grammatical errors and all have the same illogical rhetoric?

      B. Hill, you’re not the sharpest tool in the conservative shed. If you are gonna be deceptive about your multiple personality disorder on Queerty, at least try to be convincing ;)

      Oct 2, 2010 at 11:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Chris H</a@Aaron in Honolulu:

      @Aaron in Honolulu: Is this all you had to say??

      Oct 2, 2010 at 11:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Cassandra: WOW…do you really believe all your babble??

      Oct 3, 2010 at 12:00 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Aaron in Honolulu
      Aaron in Honolulu

      @B. Hill: B. Hill, you have the argumentative skills of middle schooler. You are on this website almost everyday checking your responses religiously while thumbing down as many opposing opinions as you can. You started off by debating like any person would but when you saw that your opinions and have been picked apart and logically challenged by the regular users on this website, you retaliated with using insults, multiple identities, and making false statements. Your homophobia is a reflection of you, not the gay community.

      The dedication you put into this site is the kind of behavior you would expect from a closet case.

      Oct 3, 2010 at 12:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • J,T.
      J,T.

      Haha yeah, I always thought it was more the raping angels than the being gay thing that got Sodom in trouble. But as far as this situation goes, don’t y’all think there’s a difference between discriminating against gays and not wanting to participate in National coming out day? Say you are a gay business owner, say a evangelical preacher who is well known in your city for his anti-gay stances comes in and orders something for a local rally that is both anti-gay but also explicitly religious. Wouldn’t you want to be able to refuse to help him speak out against you? It’s not that you won’t serve homophobic evangelicals, but that you don’t want to take part in their intolerance, even if it is part of their religion, which is also protected by most anti-discrimination ordinances. Hell, I wouldn’t want to help him do that, and I’m not even gay. Now it is true that this guy was renting city property, i.e. taxpayer-funded property, which of course includes gay taxpayers, and therefore he would not be entitled to the benefit of the doubt that he would were he on his own property.
      I also want you to think about this. I’m a libertarian, and while it’s true that we aren’t big on anti-discrimination ordinances for private companies, we don’t really make a big deal out of it. But this seems like compelled speech to me. I’ve been on your side since I’ve been aware of the issues, because you were fighting against people who want to control you. I believe you should have equal marriage rights, a right to privacy with regards to your sex lives, and be allowed to serve openly in the military. Plus, people who are hateful against something that they can’t possibly understand leave a bad taste in my mouth. And there are a lot of Americans, of many political views, who may not completely agree with homosexuality, but have a live and let live attitude. You are going to alienate them if you say that people have to help you promote your beliefs, and if you start demanding acceptance rather than tolerance. Nobody is ever completely accepted by all of society Just a thought. And I don’t want to generalize. Gays and lesbians always have and continue to be a large and important party of the libertarian movement, and there are many, and some here I’m sure, who agree with me.

      Oct 3, 2010 at 10:22 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chest
      Chest

      You guys are gay..

      Oct 3, 2010 at 4:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • samthor
      samthor

      “a city-owned venue that must adhere to Indianapolis’s local anti-discrimination ordinance, which bars businesses from refusing customers based on their sexual orientation.”

      Yep. Give them the boot.

      Oct 4, 2010 at 10:01 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Soupy
      Soupy

      Here is what I expect of a true libertarian. I expect you to disavow any christian fundamentalist, homophobe, or bigot who aims to limit the rights and freedoms of any group. Anti-mosque crusaders, racial profilers, and the like.

      Oct 4, 2010 at 11:31 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Soupy: I have heard this before…Just an old record, playing over and over again..YOU made a choice and now you want me to pay for it..
      If the whole world was made up of Gay people and a group of straight people was trying to force legislation on you for equal rights, health care benefits, etc., etc., etc., you would be doing the same thing the straight people are doing to you, fighting you with every breath and dollar.
      So, you think you are gay because you were born that way?? I know you do…but, this is just an excuse for you to not face the decision you made to like your lifestyle.
      I know gays, who have turned their lives over to the Lord and they say the same thing I am telling you. They believed the lie that they had been born gay…They tell me they were wrong, but now you will through another little play word at me..calling me some stupid little name because you are not honest enough to call yourself what your really are…Gay by choice!

      Oct 4, 2010 at 1:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Chris H:
      I can’t separate my relationship with Christ from a moral stand point..They live and work together, hand in hand.
      I live my life, based on my Christian beliefs. God says homosexuality is an abomination to Him..That is pretty simple to understand.
      If you want to life your life in homosexuality, I am OK with that. Your right, your decision! When the Gay agenda tries to force legislation to pass bills to make homosexuals equal to family life traditions..I got a problem with that!
      It is like the situation with Just Cookies. The gay people think they have the right to “MAKE” this establishment serve their order. WHY?? because a law was written to force straight people serve them. Well, this is what the Straight agenda is fighting you over…so you won’t gain another evil law, making people who do not believe in your lifestyle, pay for it.

      Oct 4, 2010 at 1:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Soupy
      Soupy

      I haven’t “thrown” any name at you. And I was addressing JT. You are clearly not a libertarian, so why would you respond. And your spelling and grammar are atrocious. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to espouse your points more effectively.

      Oct 4, 2010 at 2:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Soupy
      Soupy

      You might want to take a few other things that “God says” into consideration as well. God said that it was perfectly acceptable to own slaves in the old testament. Do you believe that one as well?

      Oct 4, 2010 at 2:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Cassandra: Bet you don’t read this long, but your argument is not with me…I don’t need to argue with you..Bet you lose your arguement with God on this one…

      NOTHING is as strong as the Word of God, (if you don’t like what it says, go yell at God,)

      so………Leviticus 20:13 (New King James Version)O.T.
      13 If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

      AND………Romans 1:26-32 N.T.
      24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
      26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

      28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

      Oct 4, 2010 at 2:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @RomanHans: Isn’t this just grand for you to say….Even the moderator of this forum has hidden our comments to you.
      Doesn’t this tell you that he/she agrees with you and won’t allow an opposing view?

      No, because he/she is bias….funny…you call us bias, too

      Oct 4, 2010 at 2:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @RomanHans: Isn’t this just grand for you to say….Even the moderator of this forum has hidden our comments to you.
      Doesn’t this tell you that he/she agrees with you and won’t allow an opposing view?

      No, because he/she is bias….funny…you call us bias, too, interesting…

      Oct 4, 2010 at 2:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Soupy:

      You know Soupy…Why don’t to begin by addressing what I wrote you…then we will get to your question.

      You are answering a question with a question.

      Oct 4, 2010 at 2:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Soupy
      Soupy

      You didn’t answer my question B. God has a lot of laws in Leviticus, Deuteronomy. Do you obey and support all of them? In Leviticus, God says that eating shellfish is an abomination. Had any shrimp lately?

      Oct 4, 2010 at 2:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Soupy: Soupy, you are a bit confused…I never said I was Libertarian you moron…I hope you could read this grammar.
      Besides, answer the questions or comments being directed at you. Grammar is just “another” excuse you people use to sidetrack the issues…

      Oct 4, 2010 at 2:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Soupy:

      You don’t know how long it would take for me to answer your question. First, you have to understand the background and dispensation (time era) that Leviticus was written, being Old Testament.
      Secondly, you would have to have some reference to the bible, NOT just reading verses and making random determinations on them, but that you would have to have years of study in the bible. Do You?

      I started studying the bible 24 years ago, my first 8 years was very extensive and then over the years I have added to that knowledge. What is your qualification for asking your question?

      Oct 4, 2010 at 3:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Hilarious
      Hilarious

      Wow talk about being full of yourself and your own opinion.

      Oct 4, 2010 at 4:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • citizen
      citizen

      Will they be handing out One Man – One Woman flyers at the ralley? Are they bigoted???????????

      Oct 4, 2010 at 5:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Soupy
      Soupy

      I studied the bible as a work of literature in university with Professor Northrup Frye. I can give you the exact passages from Leviticus. So how about that shellfish?

      Oct 4, 2010 at 5:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Soupy
      Soupy

      Lev. 24:44 states that I may sell slaves to neighbouring nations
      Lev 15: 19-24 says that I must not have sex with a menstruating woman
      Lev. 10: 10 eating shellfish is an abomination

      get back to me on those.

      Oct 4, 2010 at 5:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Soupy: You are right to use these verses, but you don’t understand the context that God was using when he wrote these things through the pen of Moses.
      These things happened in the Levitical ages, (Old Testament) speaking of purity. God was teaching a principal to His people, to see Him as pure and holy.
      A lot of the time, the bible will quote verses that were “practiced” by people back then. Not that He, God concurred with the practice, but He that He allowed it. Kind of like God allowing homosexual practices to occur in todays world.
      Read Leviticus 18 the chapter into chapter 19: 19 Abraham stands on the hill with Jesus and begs Him not to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah of all the homosexuals in that city..Both Jesus and Abraham go down to that city to fetch Lot, who by the way is righteous, meaning, he knew and feared Jesus, but had a bad lifestyle in his dealing with people. But Abraham asks the Lord, if he would spar Sodom if there were 45 people in the city that were righteous. Abraham’s point was, would Jesus destroy both the righteous and the unrighteous together…Jesus says NO, he would not do that…then the count down comes with Abraham..In the end you will read that God send His angels to burn the city to the ground, killing all the homosexuals. Read it for yourself.
      Now, to answer another part of your question. We are living in the New Testament Age now..The Age of Grace. God is dealing with unrighteousness in a different way than He did in the O.T.
      In the O.T. Christ had not come and died for the worlds sins. In the N.T. he uses the church to teach His disciples and then go out into the land Matthew 18: 19 and spread his word of the gospel..John 3: 16 John 14: 16 1 Corinthians 15: 3-5

      OK, I have answered your questions, but I don’t think you will understand… NOT full of myself, but full of the word of God.

      Oct 4, 2010 at 6:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Soupy: 1 Corinthians 2: 14 separates the person from learning the bible Spiritually OR Academically. I believe you are of the latter.
      Only those who have the spirit of God (Saved or born again) have God’s spirit to understand or appraise God’s truth.

      Oct 4, 2010 at 6:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Soupy
      Soupy

      You have quoted that homosexuality is an abomination which comes from the old testament god of Abraham. You say that is the word of god and that you believe it.

      Then you go on to talk about the new testament. Can you quote me any opinion on homosexuality in the new testament.

      So you choose to believe one of the many laws in the old testament. But not all of them. That’s convenient. It’s not that shellfish is an abomination. It’s the act of eating them. Do you eat them? If you do, you should pray for forgiveness and stop acting on your desire for shellfish.

      Oct 4, 2010 at 10:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Devon
      Devon

      What’s with all the neocon teabaggers commenting on this article?

      Was it all the talk of cookies that attracted them?

      Oct 4, 2010 at 11:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • lanternlad
      lanternlad

      @Cam: I think the homosexual group are being two-faced about all this. They claim to want to be allowed to be who they are and to be treated fairly, but when someone else tries to be who THEY are (the baker), the homosexual group won’t treat THEM fairly. Instead of just taking their business elsewhere like reasonable adults, they demand special treatment. Typical, spoiled college children. This has nothing to do with homosexuality and everything to do with one group’s sense of entitlement.

      Oct 4, 2010 at 11:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Soupy: Yes,in fact this one speaks to the same issue in the New Testament…1 Corinthians 6:9-10 – “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.” (NIV).

      While the scripture may sound clear, the debate actually surrounds the use of the Greek word that this particular version of the Bible translates as “homosexual offenders.” The term is “arsenokoite.” Some say that it is a reference to male prostitutes rather than to two committed homosexuals. Yet, others argue that Paul, who wrote the passage, would not have repeated “male prostitutes” twice. Even others argue that the two root words in arsenokoite are the same terms used to prohibit any premarital or extramarital sexual relations, so they may not refer to homosexual relations alone.
      But there still remains the fact that it was mentioned.
      There you go!

      Oct 5, 2010 at 12:02 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Soupy: Another thing that I wanted to point out, is that the eating of shell fish and temple meat, etc. is not brought up again in the New Testament because they were symbols the Lord used to show the people of His day, to worship Him and Him only..2nd Commandment…You shall have no other god before me.
      The gospels of the bible, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John record the life of and death of Jesus Christ. Remember now, these men had their own account of what they experienced and wrote in different times.
      What is fundamentally known to those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their savor is that Christ paid for ALL sins, even homosexuality. All paid for by His blood. This is called the Atonement of Christ…One must believe he did this work for them, personally, to be saved. Saved from what? From being thrown into the Lake of Fire and brimstone..Revelation 19-20

      If you reject Christ, you will go to the lake of fire He teaches. He will say to you at the Great White Throne Judgement..Depart from me you workers of iniquity..I never knew you. Why would He say this to anyone?? Because you chose your own live to live over His while you lived on earth. So, when you die, you go to Gehenna to wait for Judgement. You rejected Him..He did not reject YOU!

      Oct 5, 2010 at 12:13 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Soupy: Another thing that I wanted to point out, is that the eating of shell fish and temple meat, etc. is not brought up again in the New Testament because they were symbols the Lord used to show the people of His day, to worship Him and Him only..2nd Commandment…You shall have no other god before me.
      The gospels of the bible, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John record the life of and death of Jesus Christ. Remember now, these men had their own account of what they experienced and wrote in different times.
      What is fundamentally known to those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their savor is that Christ paid for ALL sins, even homosexuality. All paid for by His blood. This is called the Atonement of Christ…One must believe he did this work for them, personally, to be saved. Saved from what? From being thrown into the Lake of Fire and brimstone..Revelation 19-20

      If you reject Christ, you will go to the lake of fire He teaches. He will say to you at the Great White Throne Judgement..Depart from me you workers of iniquity..I never knew you. Why would He say this to anyone?? Because you chose your own life to live over His while you lived on earth. So, when you die, you go to Gehenna to wait for Judgement. You rejected Him..He did not reject YOU!

      Oct 5, 2010 at 12:13 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Devon: Yes, this topic came up on FOXS news and a whole article was written on the subject. Queerty.com was mentioned as having alternate thoughts on what happened in Indy..and that Just Cookies were discriminating Gays.
      Being Gay is not a race issue..its a lifestyle issue.
      I don’t know what the discrimination law states about lifestyle issues, but it certainly makes the issue of discrimination against race.

      Oct 5, 2010 at 12:20 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @lanternlad: Well, you won’t get any of these people in this forum to understand or believe this…They thumbs down anything you say because they are darkened in their souls and blind to God’s truth…They don’t have to be though..It’s just another bad choice to reject it, just as they rejected God’s plan for marriage..One man and One woman!!

      Oct 5, 2010 at 12:26 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Josh
      Josh

      @B. Hill: what is he teaching his kids? That it’s perfectly ok for Daddy to hate and fear what your ignorant bigotry feels is a threat…? That treating other people as less than you is acceptable? That if you have money, you can treat people However you want to?

      Man…those are some great life lessons!! Too bad my parents taught me silly things like questioning authority, accepting everyone equally (except for those who use their power/wealth/privilege to oppress others) and treating people with the respect they deserve as fellow humans…

      This man makes his living by accepting other peoples money. He is subsidized by taxpayer money – and yes, we scary homos pay taxes too. If he refuses to abide by anti-discrimination laws, then he should no longer get that taxpayer subsidy. It’s pretty simple. No one is saying he should lose his business. Just that he should no longer be allowed to run said business at taxpayer expense.

      Oct 5, 2010 at 12:56 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Josh
      Josh

      @B. Hill: I would encourage you, as an obvious Biblical literalist, to read Matthew 6 and take it’s lessons to heart. I would ALSO encourage you to search for ANY reference to homosexuality by the man you believe is God. Finally, go look at what Jesus himself said about the sin of Sodom. Ezekel too.

      Oh, also, look at the writings of Paul, the man who turned the faith OF Jesus into the faith ABOUT Jesus and tell me, with a straight face, that the man didn’t have some SERIOUS issues with sex in general that cast ANY commentary he has on the subject into serious question.

      Oct 5, 2010 at 1:05 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Josh
      Josh

      @Devon: Neocon Teabaggers can’t stop thinking about gay sex, Devon. It consumes them almost as much as the thought that they might not get as big a golden mansion as their friend in Heaven if they don’t convert a few more heathens. After all, everyone is equal in God’s eyes, but some are MORE equal. See?

      *smirk*

      Oct 5, 2010 at 1:09 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Josh
      Josh

      @lanternlad: As the great Oliver Wendal Holmes once said, “your right to throw a punch ends where my face begins.”. Bigots just can’t STAND being told that oppressing or attacking or demeaning another human being is NOT acceptable and should not be tolerated. You have EVERY right to be an ignorant, bigoted, fearful reactionary who clings to God and guns. You do NOT have the right to try to make everyone else as ignorant, bigoted, fearful and reactionary as yourself.

      This man’s ignorance, bigotry and fear brought this about. He, like all bullies, expected his target to back down and be cowed, and when instead, they fought back, he started to whine about HIS rights. Poor baby.

      He needs to man up and take responsibility for his actions. If he can’t or won’t, then he deserves all the ridicule he gets. And, unlike the bullies tactics, well-deserved ridicule is ALL he’ll get.

      Oct 5, 2010 at 1:21 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cassandra
      Cassandra

      B.Hill

      “Bet you don’t read this long,”

      Gee whiz, wrong already.

      “ut your argument is not with me…I don’t need to argue with you..”

      Since you are the one maligning millions of people, including me and my partner and hundreds of our friends, acquaintances, people we church with, yes, you do have the duty, if you are a honorable person, of substantiating your claims.

      Of course, you chose not to actually or honorably address the bulk of the points I made, which is revealing.

      “Bet you lose your arguement with God on this one…”

      No, I’m not arguing with God on this, in fact, it is from God that I draw my knowledge that homosexuality is not sin, but prejudice is.

      “NOTHING is as strong as the Word of God, (if you don’t like what it says, go yell at God,)”

      Why should I yell at God over the nonsense you blame on Him?

      “so………Leviticus 20:13 (New King James Version)O.T.
      13 If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.”

      So, you openly embrace murdering millions of human beings. And yet somehow, you seem to think that you have the moral and spiritual compass appropriate to comment on other people’s lives. Amazing.

      The first problem here is that you are relying on an English translation of Hebrew, which is essentially a resurrected dead language. The translation you are using reflects very old, out of date assumptions. A more accurate translation would be “If a husband lies with a holy man in his wife’s bed, both of them have committed ritual uncleanness”. Toe’bah doesn’t mean abomination, it refers to ritual impurity in connection with idolatry. If you were a tenth the scholar you claim to be, you’d recognize that the verse you quoted falls in the middle of a lengthy condemnation of heterosexual sexual scenarios, and as part of that list, has to be interpreted in light of its place in a list about the sex things heterosexuals do.

      The passage is about another form of adultery – men having sex with fertility cult priests in their wife’s bed to get the gods to give them children.

      Of course, for you, the larger problem is the intrinsic brutality and evil of accepting the notion of committing genocide by murdering millions of people for having the “wrong” kind of sexual orientation.

      “AND………Romans 1:26-32 N.T.”

      At least you didn’t commit as grave a fraud as most homophobe do, you included some of the passages that indicate Paul was writing about fertility cult worship practices.

      What is the therefore and for this reason talking about? The passages you chose to ignore:

      “18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

      21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. ”

      First off, Paul indicates that the intrinsic qualities of God are revealed in the creation. The creation, by the way, includes heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, asexuality, hermaphrodism, and many other variations of sexuality. By volume and species, most life on this planet is not heterosexual, in fact, most life by volume and species, reproduces asexually. The diversity of sexuality on earth, which includes homosexuality in thousands of species, speaks to one of the intrinsic traits of God.

      Second, verses 21-23 make it clear what Paul is condeming: idolatry. Now we know that in Rome, when Paul was alive, there was a religion dedicated to the goddess Cybele and her consort Attis. Among other things, it was a fertility religion, and its priests and priestesses had sex with worshipers to please the goddess. Priests were known to castrate themselves to mirror Attis, and dressed as Cybele to have incarnate their goddess.

      The interesting thing to me is that anti-gay theology is strongly similar to the religion of Cybele/Attis, not in its beliefs directly, but in its demands and consequences. Anti-gay theology, and people like you, demand that GLBTQ people sacrifice their true sexuality to appease your god, just as the religion of Cyble and Attis demanded of its priests and priestesses.

      Returning to what you did quote:

      “For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.”

      The reality is that lesbians, when they make love to another woman, do not exchange anything. For them, their sexual orientation to other women is natural – lesbianism occurs in nature. However, what you and your peers demand is unnatural – you demand that lesbians, who have no attraction to men do what is unnatural (and dishonest) and have sex with someone they are not attracted to. See, Romans 1: 18-32 is not just about the fertility religions, it is about fundamentalist Christianity and its homophobia, and any other time people demand that God demands any specific behavior to please Him. Paul was talking to you, not to homosexuals.

      “27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.”

      Likewise, gay men do not leave anything, they don’t abandon an attraction to women, they don’t have it to begin with. Now, if a heterosexual man, in order to appease Cybele and Attis, has sex with another man even though he is not attracted to men, that would be lust and shameful – because he’d be using that other person as a thing, an object. And, when you demand that gay men have sex with women, you are demanding that we do what is unnatural, that we leave what is natural for us to treat women lustfully, as objects rather than people, to commit something shameful to appease you as a self-appointed god of sexuality.

      You did quote the rest of the chapter

      “28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.”

      These passages describe homophobes like yourself. One could easily find quotes from your own posts that are examples of most of the above listed traits.

      I think that you read this as a condemnation of homosexuality so you won’t have to acknowledge that it condemns your own beliefs and behaviors, B. Hill.

      That’s why is it important to recognize that Paul did not write in chapters; the chapter divisions now in his texts were created much later. Paul’s theme continues:

      “1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?”

      Anti-gay theology is in essence a sexuality cult that preaches that people can be right with God, can be saved, if they have heterosexual sex. Your own argument is really just a form of the very religion Paul is condemning in the second half of Romans 1. You, therefore, have no excuse.

      Read more: http://www.queerty.com/should-just-cookies-be-evicted-from-city-owned-venue-if-it-wont-serve-the-gays-uh-yeah-20101001/#ixzz11SRe7yq4

      Oct 5, 2010 at 1:34 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cassandra
      Cassandra

      B.Hill

      “B. Hill

      @Soupy: Soupy, you are a bit confused…I never said I was Libertarian you moron…I hope you could read this grammar.”

      On the subject of sin, are you aware of what Christ said about calling people derogatory names?

      Matthew 5: 21″You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[b]will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,[c]‘ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. ”

      The point here is that verbal abuse is not excused, by calling someone a fool, or moron, you place yourself under judgment just as if you’d committed murder.

      “You don’t know how long it would take for me to answer your question. First, you have to understand the background and dispensation (time era) that Leviticus was written, being Old Testament.”

      So, you are making excuses. The Levitical laws don’t apply, apparently, when it is inconvenient for you, but do apply when you can abuse others with them.

      Do you know what Jesus said to the Pharisee’s regarding the legalism you are employing?

      Luke 11: 42″Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.”

      You’ve abandoned justice and the love God, and given your allegiance to an interpretation that destroys other people’s lives and spirituality, a belief that intrinsically creates injustice.

      “Secondly, you would have to have some reference to the bible, NOT just reading verses and making random determinations on them, but that you would have to have years of study in the bible. Do You?”

      Ah, the appeal to authority. Not an honorable argument.

      “I started studying the bible 24 years ago, my first 8 years was very extensive and then over the years I have added to that knowledge. What is your qualification for asking your question?”

      I have you beat by more than 2 decades then. More importantly though is that your dismissal of Soupy’s questions is a case of pride. Not the healthy self-esteem pride used in psychology and in Gay pride and African-American Pride, but the “I’m superior to others” kind of pride that is sin, the worst sin according to C.S. Lewis. You know, the sin that is said to be the cause of Lucifer’s fall, the sin of pride the serpent invoked when it tempted Eve.

      Pride in your heterosexuality has deceived you into believing that you are superior to homosexuals. And it deceives you into thinking that you are superior to Soupy. Pride is sin, and you ought to repent.

      “Read Leviticus 18 the chapter into chapter 19: 19″

      Again, we have the fraud of starting in the middle of a story.

      The story of Sodom is not about homosexuality, but about torture and rape. Ezekiel makes it very clear what the sin of Sodom was, and never mentions homosexuals.

      Ezekiel 16:49 (New International Version)

      49 ” ‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.

      Now, before you quote verse 50 (hey were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.) – at me, bear in mind that “detestable things” does not mean homosexuality. Earlier in the very same chapter, Ezekiel uses it to reference human sacrifice: “1 You slaughtered my children and sacrificed them [e] to the idols. 22 In all your detestable practices and your prostitution”

      This entire passage is a scathing criticism of Jerusalem and the people of Israel, (1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 “Son of man, confront Jerusalem with her detestable practices ) Ezekiel, on God’s behalf states that “You have done more detestable things than they, and have made your sisters seem righteous by all these things you have done.” Israel is castigated for idolatry, for sacrificing their own children to Baal.

      Kinda like the way homophobes sacrifice GLBTQ people to their vision of God. Again, the very story you use to bash us, convicts your own beliefs and practices. Every homophobe is more an heir of Sodom than any homosexual.

      Oct 5, 2010 at 1:55 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Josh
      Josh

      @Cassandra: *Applauds* Bravo. And if I may be so bold…SNAP, bitches! Cassandra just schooled ALL of y’all. All of us.

      Oct 5, 2010 at 2:01 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cassandra
      Cassandra

      B.Hill

      “Yes,in fact this one speaks to the same issue in the New Testament…1 Corinthians 6:9-10″

      Actually, it does not.

      First off, it was not written in English. While you acknowledge that there is debate about the meaning of the words arsenokoite and malakoi, you make an assertion of fact, and that means you are lying to us.

      “But there still remains the fact that it was mentioned.
      There you go!”

      The fact is that homosexuality is not mentioned. At the time of Paul’s writing, greek had two words that did mean men who have sex with men, yet he did not use either word.

      Instead, he used a word that means ‘soft, fine’ and was used to condemn what was considered unmanly virtues, like being a coward, or trying to hard to impress women, or being a bad business men, it articulated a particularly greek notion of effeminacy that frankly, most fundamentalist Christian men today would fit under.

      Arsenokoite is word Paul coined, in place of two words that his readers would have understood as ‘men who have sex with men’. From the position in the text, it is a good bet that Paul men ‘traders in male sex slaves’. Not the slaves themselves, but rather, those who sell other men to be the sexual slaves of others. This would be a grave injustice of course, and so, would be a violation of God’s law.

      B.Hill, in post 92 you wrote:
      “I live my life, based on my Christian beliefs. God says homosexuality is an abomination to Him..That is pretty simple to understand.”

      From your posts, it seems you do not live by Christian beliefs. In Christianity, God demands justice, is manifest in justice, and hates injustice. Yet you defend injustice.

      God does not say that homosexuality is an abomination. God does say:Micah 6:8 (New International Version)

      8 He has showed you, O man, what is good.
      And what does the LORD require of you?
      To act justly and to love mercy
      and to walk humbly with your God.

      Sadly, those who preach anti-gay theology fail on all three counts. There is nothing just about discrimination, nothing merciful in your endorsement of genocide, nothing humble in assuming that because you are heterosexual, you are superior.

      “Another thing that I wanted to point out, is that the eating of shell fish and temple meat, etc. is not brought up again in the New Testament”

      This is not accurate. Jesus was castigated by the Pharisees for not living by their interpretation of the Law on several occasions. Jesus made is clear that their understanding of the Law was not the Law itself, and had very harsh criticism for their legalism. After Christ’s ascension, the discples argued a great deal about the Law, including the dietary restrictions of the purity laws.

      Did you not know that, or were you trying to use a false answer to answer a tough question?

      ” because they were symbols the Lord used to show the people of His day, to worship Him and Him only..2nd Commandment…You shall have no other god before me.”

      Since you brought up the commandments given to Moses, it is worth noting that they contain no condemnation of homosexual intercourse, homosexuals per se, or homosexuality. They do, however, condemn bearing false witness, killing people, and taking God’s name in vain.

      How many of those have you violated here? (Hint: 3 letters, starts with an “a”, second two letters are identical).

      Oct 5, 2010 at 2:17 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cassandra
      Cassandra

      Thanks Josh. I have a bit more to add tonight.

      B.Hill

      “I have heard this before…Just an old record, playing over and over again..YOU made a choice and now you want me to pay for it..”

      This was in post 91, and it is sinful to the core. Homosexuality is not a choice, and every time you claim it is, you are bearing false witness about other people lives, about something you cannot know.

      It is an expression of extraordinary pride – the unhealthy, God-rejecting sinful kind. You are asserting that you know better than we do the truth of our own lives – an impossible thing. It is your ego talking, and what it is saying is truly terrible.

      Even Christianity acknowledges that we cannot know what is in someone else’s heart, only God can. When you pretend to know the truths of our lives better than we do, you are pretending to have a power only God has. You have set yourself up a god.

      That is rebellion against God, B.Hill, the very same failing that Milton attributes as the cause of Satan’s fall.

      “If the whole world was made up of Gay people and a group of straight people was trying to force legislation on you for equal rights, health care benefits, etc., etc., etc., you would be doing the same thing the straight people are doing to you, fighting you with every breath and dollar.”

      You are making false accusations, with is also sin. Don’t you find it least a little bit odd that your belief causes you to sin so very, very much?

      B.Hill, righteousness cannot by definition create sin. Your belief that homosexuality is sin not only springs out of the sin of pride, it has led you, and millions of other people, to sin over and over and over again. If it came from God, your belief would not need you to lie, it would not need you to embrace genocide. It would not exalt your pride, it would not drive anyone to commit hate crimes, it would not drive anyone away from God, or to suicide.

      “So, you think you are gay because you were born that way?? I know you do…but, this is just an excuse for you to not face the decision you made to like your lifestyle.”

      Again, your pride is leading you into damnation. You are telling lies about our lives, B.Hill, and not only are you sinning against us, you are proving to us that you are not honest, for you will even lie to us about things you cannot know that we do know.

      Let that sink in. We know the truth about our lives, we live the experiences, we are the data. You do not know, so when you make false claims like the one above, you prove to us that you are a liar. Every other thing you say is suspect, because you lie to us about things we know that you do not.

      “I know gays, who have turned their lives over to the Lord and they say the same thing I am telling you.”

      No, you know, or know of, people who make their living telling you what you want to hear. Sadly, too many of the ‘ex-gays’ end up getting caught having gay sex or trying to have gay sex.

      I not only am a gay Christian, I know hundreds of gay men and lesbians and bisexuals of both genders who testify that:

      God does not condemn their sexuality
      No amount of prayer or therapy changed them from homosexual to heterosexual
      your theology is abusive and destructive

      “They believed the lie that they had been born gay…”
      No, actually, most ex-gays claim some other origin for their sexuality. I admit that you are well-acquainted with lying, but in this case, you’ve mis-identified the lie.

      “calling me some stupid little name because you are not honest enough to call yourself what your really are…Gay by choice!”

      It is tragic that you commit the very sin you accuse others of.

      “Being Gay is not a race issue..its a lifestyle issue.”

      Though it is not a race issue, it is an intrinsic trait. There is no such thing as a ‘gay lifestyle’.

      You have sinned mightily, B.Hill, against me, my partner, our friends, people on this board, and millions and millions of other GLBTQ people and the heterosexuals who cherish them.

      Please, for your own sake, repent.

      Oct 5, 2010 at 2:34 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Soupy
      Soupy

      Thanks Cassandra. We are told by Brian that homosexuality is a choice. It’s not. But his selective interpretations of the Bible are.

      Oct 5, 2010 at 9:13 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Connie
      Connie

      If you are a business in a city-owned building and you violate the city’s Anti-discrimination codes, then you should lose your lease. I don’t agree with your decison, but you have the right to make business decisions as a business owner. However, you don’t have protection when you violate a city ordinance/law or code. Bye bye justcookies. I will remember your name so that I’m sure not to patronize you wherever you go.

      Oct 5, 2010 at 1:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rev. Dr. Babcock
      Rev. Dr. Babcock

      @CertainPOV: If we all work for the government then you are correct when someone comes into a store they should be able to order what they want — we give up our individual fredoms when we let the state take over. I read a lot of speculation about this company as if they do make cookies for political purposes — suppose they do not want to be involved politically in anything — do they have that right — suppose they do not wish to become embroiled in any controversial program do they have that right — suppose they have a special interest in cancer research do they have the right to only make special cookies for that event — so many of the comments I read remind me of how it was and is in communist countries where no one has individual rights

      Oct 5, 2010 at 4:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Josh
      Josh

      @Rev. Dr. Babcock: IF they deny all political purchase requests, not just requests from icky gays, then they should be fine. If they single out one group and deny them service due to an immutable trait, then they are bigots and should not be permitted to do business on city property I’m defiance of city regulations. They have every right to operate a business and serve/refuse to serve anyone they like OFF of publically owned property, but taxpayers should not be forced to subsidize bigotry. Period.

      Oct 5, 2010 at 4:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Soupy: OK Soupy, you believe homosexuality is not a choice, right? If God made you in His image, a man, and He make you Gay, then why does He say, it is an abomination for you to practice homosexuality???

      Seems like God did not think this through very well if this is to be the case.

      God DID think everything through when he created human kind. You, along with many people, decided and chose your way of life. Now, you may have been forced into a gay lifestyle because of your existing circumstances, for this I sympathize with you, but you DO have a choice to see the reason of this lifestyle as wrong in the sight of God.
      Now, if you do see that your lifestyle is wrong before God, then you have the opportunity to go to Him and ask for forgiveness and change..He will, with NO doubt in my mind, forgive you and turn your life around…BUT, you don’t want this in your life…So,you have not excuse! Please don’t say you are gay because you were born that way…God did NOT create you gay! Even if you didn’t chose to be gay in the beginning, you have a choice to turn from it, by God’s power and grace.
      Like I said before, my wife was a lesbian for 18 years and she asked God for forgiveness and He changed her. She understands the issues and used to believe and talk like you all do know.
      Before I accepted Christ, I was a person with many lady partners, and this too was a abomination to the Lord. God gave me the strength and courage to turn from my wicked ways. So, I know you can, too.

      Oct 5, 2010 at 6:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Soupy
      Soupy

      okay, as long as you give up those abominable shellfish.

      Oct 5, 2010 at 6:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Soupy: OK, it’s a deal!!

      Oct 5, 2010 at 6:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Josh
      Josh

      @B. Hill: I’ll consider “choosing” another sexuality if you can answer Cassandra’s posts with half of the intelligence and historical/cultural insight she displayed in tearing your argument to pieces. Make a compelling case using fact, reason, and logic, B, rather than the old standard evangelical song and dance and you might stand a chance of reaching someone. I won’t hold my breath, though.

      Oct 5, 2010 at 7:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cassandra
      Cassandra

      B.Hill

      “OK Soupy, you believe homosexuality is not a choice, right? If God made you in His image, a man, and He make you Gay, then why does He say, it is an abomination for you to practice homosexuality???”

      There are several issues here. First off, using multiple questions marks for emphasis creates the impression that you are a child rather than an adult. Your posts tend to be written at a level far below the level of education and life experience you claim for yourself.

      Second, you are engaged in fallacy and fraud. God does not say that it is an abomination for homosexuals to engage in lovemaking. You are trying to disprove people’s real experiences based on your conjecture about the meaning of an ancient text.

      In other words, you are using something subjective to disprove other people’s experiences. It is as if you told someone “I think leprechauns hate Santa Clause, therefore, you did not pizza for dinner last night”.

      Do you see how irrational that is?

      “Seems like God did not think this through very well if this is to be the case.”

      Actually, you did not think it through very well.

      See, the fact that people are born gay, rather than chose, plus the fact that God is perfectly just and perfectly loving, means that God does not condemn homosexuality.

      “God DID think everything through when he created human kind.”
      Therefore, because homosexuality is innate, occurring in thousands of other species of life besides humans, along with asexuality, bisexuality, hermaphrodism, parthenogenesis, and other kinds of sexuality, and because God does not make mistakes, homosexuality is not intrinsically sin.

      “You, along with many people, decided and chose your way of life.”

      You are sinning again.

      “Now, you may have been forced into a gay lifestyle because of your existing circumstances,”

      More sin. Homosexuality, like heterosexuality, is innate. Ironically, you and your sin-led peers try very, very hard to force GLBTQ people into living as heterosexuals.

      There is no such thing as a gay lifestyle. Every time you use that phrase, you brand yourself a liar.

      “but you DO have a choice to see the reason of this lifestyle as wrong in the sight of God.”

      Homosexuality is not a sin, it is not wrong in the sight of God, but, B.Hill, prejudice and injustice is. And unlike any sexual orientation, prejudice can be considered a lifestyle, and it is chosen.

      See, B.Hill, the arguments you unleash on us are actually your own internal criticism of yourself, turned outward. You know, as we all do innately, that it is wrong to harm other people, that it is wrong to abuse people. But you enjoy hurting people, and so, in order to live with yourself, you transfer your own internal condemnation of your own actions, onto the people you enjoy hurting.

      “Please don’t say you are gay because you were born that way…God did NOT create you gay!”

      Asking people to lie about their own lives is sin, B.Hill.

      “Like I said before, my wife was a lesbian for 18 years and she asked God for forgiveness and He changed her.”

      Unfortunately for your testimony, B.Hill, we’ve all seen this song and dance before. There are only a few options:

      1) you are simply lying again, are not married, never have been and do not actually know any ex-gays whatsoever, male or female
      2) if your wife exists, she is either in denial or lying to you
      3) if she exists and claims to be ex-gay, she will either eventually give up pretending to be heterosexual, dump you and finally be happy, or suffer and die in misery and depression.

      See, B.Hill, for every person who claims “I was gay, and God made me heterosexual” – there are tens of thousands of GLBTQ people of faith who beg and plead with God, fight themselves, do everything and anything to become heterosexual – without any change at all ever occurring.

      That’s tens of thousands to one, B.Hill, pretty terrible odds to justify vilifying our lives. And the odds get worse, because eventually, most ‘ex-gays’ admit that they never, ever, became heterosexual. They faked it instead.

      The reality is that there is not even one concrete, proven example of someone changing from homosexual to heterosexual. Not even one.

      “Before I accepted Christ, I was a person with many lady partners, and this too was a abomination to the Lord. God gave me the strength and courage to turn from my wicked ways. So, I know you can, too.”

      Well, I personally doubt you’ve even reached puberty, frankly, much less had “many lady partners” – but frankly, if you were telling the truth, the fact that you learned not to use women as objects of your sinful lust has no bearing on anyone else’s sexuality.

      Your sins are yours, and prove nothing about anyone else’s life.

      Your claim does bring up an interesting thing though. A disproportionate percentage of homophobes admit to being very rotten people, from sexual sins like adultery and fornication, to economic sins like stealing, and worse. It is clear that for such folks, including yourself, anti-gay theology is simply a means to feel like your own sins are not so bad, because GLBTQ people are, in your opinion, so much worse.

      Which means that you and your peers really never did repent of your sinful past, you resent not being able to sin as lustfully and abusively as you used to, and simply shouldn’t be opining about anyone else’s life until you get your own cleaned up for real.

      Oct 5, 2010 at 7:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Josh
      Josh

      @Cassandra: *snaps* too bad B won’t ever respond to these excellent posts.

      Oct 5, 2010 at 7:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Cassandra: I believe no matter what I post, you will believe in your own position. My words to you and the people in this room don’t come from hatred of you, personally..but of the sin of homosexuality only.
      We disagree with this I know and I am fine with what you believe. I am not anyone’s judge, so you are free to live out what you believe…I will defend you to do this, too.
      Many Christians I know would not go out of their way to tell someone they are living in sin because it would move them out of their comfort zone.
      I don’t apologies for anything I have written, as it came from my heart, not from any desire to do damage to anyones soul. Sometimes, a person can try to help someone see something in themselves that they don’t yet see. I believe you are closed off from hearing anything that does not meet your own understanding and beliefs. You are free to do this, too.
      I will leave this room now…

      Oct 5, 2010 at 11:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Soupy
      Soupy

      “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”

      Oct 6, 2010 at 12:20 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cassandra
      Cassandra

      B.Hill

      “I believe no matter what I post, you will believe in your own position.”

      One could take this several ways. You could be admitting that your own position is indefensible, acknowledging that you have no convincing argument to make. I kinda doubt that is what you mean though.

      I think you mean it as an insult, that you are assuming that my mind is closed. But here’s the problem for you. You cannot know anything about me yet, so, should you be assuming that my mind is closed, you would be making that conclusion based only on yourself.

      I made a genuine effort to refute your claims, and in return, you refuse to even make an effort to address what I have presented. It is clear who here will only believe his own position, B.Hill.

      “My words to you and the people in this room don’t come from hatred of you, personally..but of the sin of homosexuality only.”

      Your hatred of my loving relationship with my partner of 14 years is personal, your disassociation of that relationship from me as a person, is hateful. Your words do go from hate, as well as pride.

      Homsoexuality is not a sin, and it is dishonest of you to repeat that claim when you have chosen not to address my challenge to your claims. By being so dismissive and prideful, B.Hill, you are demonstrating hate.

      “We disagree with this I know and I am fine with what you believe. I am not anyone’s judge,”

      Wrong again, for you have done little here but judge people. Being dishonest about it now won’t undo what you have said here, it only tells us all that your opinion of us is so bad, you think you can lie to our faces about your own words that are still available for us to read.

      “I don’t apologies for anything I have written, as it came from my heart,”

      Matthew 15: 17″Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’ 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man ‘unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him ‘unclean.’ ”

      Just because your ugly words come from the heart doesn’t exonerate you. The ugly things you have written reflect the nature of your heart, and you have much to repent of, much to apologize for. It is a tragedy that you refuse.

      “not from any desire to do damage to anyones soul.”

      And yet, desire or not, that is the consequence of the belief you have posted here. Your belief ‘homosexuality is sin’ bears only evil fruit, it destroys people, and therefore, B.Hill, it does not come from God.

      “Sometimes, a person can try to help someone see something in themselves that they don’t yet see.”

      Ah, there’s the sin of pride again. You again assume that you are qualified to judge my life, find fault, and ‘help me see something’. Yet of the two of us, who is creating injustice and who endorsed genocide?

      You, B.Hill. You came here to judge millions of people.

      Let me remind you of something else Jesus said:
      Luke 6: 41″Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

      43″No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.”

      B.Hill, the fantasy of a shadow of a hint of an illusion of a speck that you think you see in the eyes of GLBTQ people, when you call our loving relationships sin, is nothing more than the shadow cast by the plank of pride and hate in your own eyes.

      “I believe you are closed off from hearing anything that does not meet your own understanding and beliefs.”

      So, instead of making even a tiny attempt to rebut the points I’ve made, you make a negative conclusion about my character. But, B.Hill, of the two of us, which has genuinely shown an interest in the person’s perspective?

      I, who carefully examined your position and claims, and provided a detailed rebuttal

      or

      you, you dismissed what I said with empty platitudes and insults?

      “I will leave this room now…”

      This is probably the closest we’ll get to contrition and repentance you – by leaving you are admitting that your ugly claims about us are wrong, indefensible, motivated by hatred and pride, and require repentance from you. You’ve simply chosen to run from your sin.

      Just remember, you cannot run from God.

      Oct 6, 2010 at 12:35 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • scott ny'er
      scott ny'er

      @Cassandra: I’m going to assume that everything you wrote was fantastic and proved your point. So kudos.

      Sadly, people like B. Hill will never read your posts in it’s entirety. IF they do, they won’t be able to intelligently digest it and just ignore it. They never really read the Bible (see recent news on how Agnostics and Atheists know more about the Bible then they do) and don’t care to. They don’t want to be educated. They just USE THE BIBLE for their own purposes… be it hatred, bigotry, etc.

      Oct 6, 2010 at 12:40 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cassandra
      Cassandra

      Scott Ny’er

      “Sadly, people like B. Hill will never read your posts in it’s entirety. . . ”

      Probably. In coming on thirty years of this, in various media, few homophobes learn anything the first time around, or the tenth.

      But I have learned that they are not the only ones involved. We can be sure that there was at least one gay teen from a fundamentalist background who finally heard anti-gay theology refuted. That alone is worth the time it took.

      And hopefully, some of what I presented will be useful to others as well, by showing that there “homosexuality is sin” is poor theology, and doesn’t fit the primary, fundamental principles of Christian belief.

      Whether one is Christian or not, we all need to be better informed about what Christianity really is about, vs. the punishment cult that fundamentalists have claimed is Christianity, if only to be armored against their prejudice. After all, if the hatefilled things that a B.Hill posts causes anyone to become prejudiced against all Christians, then the B.Hill has won just as much as if he’d talked someone into hating their sexuality – because he’s gotten you to hate someone, and that is their real goal.

      If a bigot can get you to hate, to be puffed up with pride and malice, to become just like he is, then he has won, even if you direct your hate at him, or people you think are like him.

      Oct 6, 2010 at 12:52 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Soupy
      Soupy

      It’s okay. I’m straight now. B. Hill has turned me off of men!

      Oct 6, 2010 at 9:21 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BigO
      BigO

      I think the police department should be given big kudo’s for catching this gay sexual theme preference BMV commissioner and hope they keep up the great job and get all these gay sexual theme preference men before children are exposed to it. I hope the police are planning to be at the city market on Monday when they are planning to picket the Just Cookies store. You know they will be hanging out at the bathrooms in between their protesting. Because this is what they do to find their fellow sexual theme life style partners. Even those that get married and have families will do what they want to, when they want to and sometimes forcing their so called at birth feelings of odd sexual behavior onto others in public baths and parks.

      Oct 8, 2010 at 11:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Soupy
      Soupy

      Sarcasm doesn’t always read in print.

      Oct 8, 2010 at 11:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Cassandra:

      The reality is that there is not even one concrete, proven example of someone changing from homosexual to heterosexual. Not even one.

      This may be true in your little world, but out there in the big world, many people, who made a “choice” to live the gay lifestyle, have turned away from the lifestyle to live a heterosexual life.

      It is all in the “choice” one makes for their lives. Yes, I will give you what you said about homosexuals trying to live a heterosexual life and failing, but there is more to the switch in lifestyle than you understand.

      My wife told me, for her, it was choice to live with another woman for 18 years, but she always knew in her heart, that this lifestyle was not right, but she fought against anyone that would condemn her for it. For years she denied any resemblance understanding. People around her would say that they were born homosexual.

      But ten years ago, five years before I met her and married her, she tells me that the met a Christian man in her line of work, who befriended her and did not push Christianity at her, but patiently became a friend as well as a co-worker. Over a two year period, she became attracted to his beliefs.

      She went to his church a few times and over a time she place her trust in Jesus Christ..Almost immediately, she started to lose interest in her relationship with this other woman. Not that she stopped loving her, but she realized that she could not give her life to both…She made another hard choice to let her relationship go with her mate..A very hard choice, but God gave her the strength and understanding of Himself, for her to do this.
      Fast forward five years…she met me and we dated for six months and married. We are going on 6 years now. She has never had feelings for another woman, but gives me her honest and total attention.
      I am retired and she is still working…I clean the house, buy the groceries, take care of any business around the home and let her enjoy her life. She is in heaven on earth now, and I am fine taking care of her.
      This what God did for her…and me.

      Now, you may say that she never became a lesbian…Yes, she was certainly one..living the lifestyle for 18 years.

      There Cassandra…is your one!

      Sure you studied the bible and know a lot of the verses of scripture, but then again, so did the pharisies in Jesus day.
      These men did not know God, but they could read scripture, not ones filled with understanding,but hypocrites and people of the devil, fighting against the people of God, just as you are doing with me.

      Oct 9, 2010 at 12:55 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cassandra
      Cassandra

      B.Hill

      You quoted me “The reality is that there is not even one concrete, proven example of someone changing from homosexual to heterosexual. Not even one.” and replied

      “This may be true in your little world, but out there in the big world, many people, who made a “choice” to live the gay lifestyle, have turned away from the lifestyle to live a heterosexual life.”

      First off, B.Hill, how can I take your word for it, when you said in post 135 “I will leave this room now…” and yet, here you are?

      Second, your dismissal “in your little world” is abusive, and indicates that the rest of your statement is a lie that could only stand up if it were preceded with abuse. I was writing of reality, the great big real world, and in that world, B.Hill, there is not even one concrete, proven example of someone changing from homosexual to heterosexual.

      Yes, there are people, employees of ex-gay ministries for the most part, who claim to have changed from gay to straight. But not a one has provided concrete evidence to prove their claim, and many ex-gays eventually admit that their sexual orientation never changed, they simply lied about it. Even Exodus International’s president Alan Chambers admits that he still experiences same-sex attractions.

      “Anderson Cooper: So you entered counseling. Do you still have attraction to men, you know, you’re just choosing not to act on it?

      Alan Chambers: My attraction greatly dimminished over the course of many years. Sixteen years into it my life isn’t even remotely the same as it once was. But I often say that I will never be as though I never was. And the truth is I’m a human being and for me to say that I could never be attracted to men again or that I couldn’t be tempted would mean that I’m not human and that’s just not the case.”

      http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/02/07/215

      “It is all in the “choice” one makes for their lives.”

      No, homosexuality is not about choice, without or without the quotations marks. Heterosexuality is not about choice either. You however, are making choices – choosing to tell lies about other people’s lives, for instance. I did not chose, you are lying about my life. Since you lie to me about my life, it is fair to conclude that you tell lies about everything else as well.

      “Yes, I will give you what you said about homosexuals trying to live a heterosexual life and failing, but there is more to the switch in lifestyle than you understand.”

      Your pride raises its sinful head again, B.Hill, as you pretend to know more about my life, and my understanding of this subject, than I do.

      You haven’t lived my life, B.Hill, you have no idea what I, or any other GLBTQ person has endured.

      “My wife told me, for her, it was choice to live with another woman for 18 years, but she always knew in her heart, that this lifestyle was not right, but she fought against anyone that would condemn her for it.”

      First off, B.Hill, I do not believe that you have a wife. Because you do not believe GLBTQ people when we say we did not chose to be homosexual, your word is worthless. You don’t believe us, and lie about our lives, so nothing you say about your life can ever be believed. That is the price of your disbelief of our testimony.

      Too many homophobes on line tells the exact same story you just posted, nearly word for word. I would almost bet you copied and pasted it from an ex-gay or conservative Christian website, or someone else’s post in a debate.

      The truth is, researchers from across academia have repeatedly tried to find even one person who has changed from homosexual to heterosexual, and not a one has been found. The ex-gay who could prove his or her story would be an over-night hero, a millionaire in no time, and yet, after all this time, there is not one case of someone concretely proving that he or she has changed from homosexual to heterosexual.

      However, there are many, many cases of ex-gays, both in leadership positions and not, who have recanted. After years of telling the world “trust me on this, I changed from gay to straight” – they admit that they were telling lies the whole time.

      On the improbable chance that there is any kernel of truth in your story, you have not described a homosexual person changing into a heterosexual. You have described either

      a homosexual person being coerced into pretending to be heterosexual – the most common scenario

      or

      a bisexual person abandoning someone who loved her and taking up with man as a result of social pressure.

      “I am retired and she is still working…I clean the house, buy the groceries, take care of any business around the home and let her enjoy her life. She is in heaven on earth now, and I am fine taking care of her.”

      A good liar, B.Hill, knows how to be convincing, and you lack that skill.

      “Now, you may say that she never became a lesbian…Yes, she was certainly one..living the lifestyle for 18 years.”

      Again, your word choices destroy your credibility, B.Hill. There is no such thing as a lesbian lifestyle. Using that phrase indicated that your whole story was a fiction.

      However, taking your fiction at face value, bisexuals can commit to long-term relationships, even for decades, with someone of their own gender. Their experience proves nothing about homosexuality. And how revolting that you would glory in a story that exalts abandoning a loved one.

      “There Cassandra…is your one!”

      Sorry, but hearsay from someone who has repeatedly lied to me about my own life, is not evidence. I know personally, hundreds of people who have gone through ex-gay ministries, as Christian GLBTQ people, who have never changed from gay to straight no matter what they did.

      Ex-gay ministries are a multi-million industry, a con game that robs tens of thousands of vulnerable people every year, while exploiting ignorant homophobes as well. They are the spiritual equivalent of big tobacco, B.Hill.

      However, I’ve got an offer for you and your wife.

      I know a wealthy man who has offered, for years, to pay all of the expenses necessary for any ex-gay to prove that they have changed from homosexual to heterosexual. Your wife can commit here, on line, and I will enable the moderators here to put your wife in contact with the man who will fund the testing.

      There is one caveat though. No matter how your wife does in the tests, the results will be published. If she fails to prove that she has changed from lesbian to heterosexual, it will be published in all of the mainstream press.

      All she has to do is this: Take a no-lie MRI and lie detector test to affirm her story, and take a sexual arousal response to prove that she experience no sexual arousal when shown erotic images of women.

      If your wife refuses, it proves you lied here, just like every other ex-gay and ex-gay supporter to ever post on the internet. In ten years of seeking some ex-gay to provide scientific evidence, not a one has ever accepted my acquaintance’s offer.

      Your wife would be the darling of the religious right if she proves her story. So prove your case, B.Hill.

      Or do one better. Call up all of the major news agencies, fund the testing yourself, and on camera, your wife can prove her story.

      But if you reject this offer, or make any excuses, or dismiss it, or whine or complain, it will prove beyond all doubt that you made the entire thing up. If you disappear, if you throw insults, if you do anything other than accept, it will prove that you have lied to all of us.

      Because an honest person would be anxious to prove his story, but a liar will do or say anything to avoid it.

      Without evidence, I stand by my statement. Despite many, many studies, there is no concrete proof that anyone has ever changed from homosexual to heterosexual.

      There are liars who eventually get caught seeking or having gay sex, and there are bisexuals who fall in love with someone of the opposite gender, but there is no concrete evidence that any homosexual has ever become heterosexual. Not by God, not by electro-shock therapy or hormone therapy or torture or psychotherapy or any other method.

      “Sure you studied the bible and know a lot of the verses of scripture, but then again, so did the pharisies in Jesus day.”

      So now you are arguing that knowledge of the Scripture proves nothing. OK. But that works both ways, and it means that your own arguments from Scripture, and those by every other homophobic clergy, are worthless as well. So now you cannot invoke Scripture, and you have no truths to share.

      And couldn’t you have at least spelled Pharisees correctly? It is even in spell check.

      “These men did not know God,”

      That is not what the Bible says about them.

      “but they could read scripture, not ones filled with understanding,but hypocrites and people of the devil, fighting against the people of God, just as you are doing with me.”

      So basically, your response to my detailed rebuttal of your position is more pride on your part, plus empty insults. You cannot prove that anything I said is wrong, so you just call me a person of the devil.

      That verbal abuse is the final proof for me that every claim you made about your wife is a lie, B.Hill.

      You lied about me, you lied about the lives of millions of people, you lie about the Bible, you life about your own life, you lie when you say you are done here.

      B.Hill, there are hundreds of passages in the Bible that condemn telling lies and bearing false witness, and only a handful that can ever be corrupted into a condemnation of homosexuality. Telling lies is condemned in the Ten Commandments, but homosexuality is not.

      You have sinned against millions, B.Hill, please repent.

      Oct 9, 2010 at 2:16 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cassandra
      Cassandra

      B.Hill

      To address your fictional account on a meta-level, I want to explain why it is so transparently a lie.

      You repeatedly use the concept ‘the gay lifestyle’. That concept is a fiction, a fabrication, and there are basically three kinds of people who use it: people who make their living promoting discrimination against GLBTQ people, run of the mill homophobes, and people who are completely ignorant about the lives of GLBTQ people.

      Real lesbians, and even so-called ex-lesbians who are not paid employees of ex-gay ministries, do not dismiss their relationships with another human being as a ‘lifestyle’.

      That idea is so incredibly dehumanizing that only the nastiest and most heartless homophobes use it. Anyone with any respect for other humans does not use that phrase.

      There is no homosexual lifestyle, no lesbian lifestyle. Characterizing our intimate and loving relationships so casually, so materialisticly, as if love were an object to be purchased on a whim or fad, indicates so complete a contempt for us, and for humanity in general, that there is no way you could be telling the truth about anything. I’m sorry, but that is how serious a sin against human dignity you committed.

      Additionally, you repeat the lie that every GLBTQ person knows is a lie – that we chose to be gay or lesbian or bisexual. The moment you wrote “who made a “choice”” everyone else here knew you were telling lies.

      See, I’ve spoken with real ex-gays, and even with all of the fundie jargon, those who are not on the payroll are deeply aware of, and anxious to communicate the emotional and spiritual nature of their same-sex relationships. The moment someone pretends those emotions do not exist, by using the label lifestyle, I know I’m dealing with someone with no compassion, no morals, and no empathy.

      Further, your story is too full of all the right details, to good to be true, and yet lacks all of the real details found in any real break up story, or any real testimonial to spiritual growth.

      One other point for you to consider, the next time you set about to lie about homosexuality.

      There are millions of GLBTQ people who are Christians, who walk with Christ and are filled with the Holy Spirit, without becoming heterosexual. Many spent years begging God to make them heterosexual, and God did not, not in the slightest.

      You may pronounce a derogatory judgment on these people, saying that their faith was weak or insincere – but the moment you do, you have sinned against them.

      And here’s the problem for you. Your belief that homosexuality is sin only manifests in the form of sin. You lie, your pride exalts your guesses over other people’s lives, your libel and slander, you condemn – all of these are sins, B.Hill.

      Your belief ‘homosexuality is sin’ only manifests in sin, in unrighteousness. It destroys lives and faith. But righteousness cannot produce unrighteousness. If God really condemned homosexuality, that belief would not cause any harm to anyone, it would not cause injustice and discrimination, and you would not have to tell lies or commit libel, it would not feed your pride.

      The proof that your belief is sin is the harm it causes other people and the sin it causes you to commit.

      Please, repent.

      Oct 9, 2010 at 2:38 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      eCassandra,
      And I, too can read,that your opinion is set on what you believe.
      All I can say is their is a judge and one day the deception that you have carried around in your head, will be revealed to you. It will be too late for you then.
      The Lord says in his word, that people will replace the truth for a lie, believing not in what He tells them, but they have fabricated a story in their minds, so they can live in darkness, and do the things which are unnatural to His will for your life.
      I am done writing to you about this..You continue to believe what you will. When you time comes to face the music of your life, you will then be reminded of all the many times you forsook the truth and continued on believing your lie.
      Life it up now Cassandra, because you have been warned!

      Oct 9, 2010 at 1:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      I am all to willing to tell the truth and not be evasive, but you don’t want to hear, understand or believe truth. You have your studies that have led you to take the stand you do, whether is is truth or not.
      I told you a story about my wife and I and you don’t accept it. Why? Because your little world refuses it, saying that no person has ever changed from living a homosexual lifestyle to live a heterosexual lifestyle. Our terminology may be different here is all I can think, but the practice of homosexuality proves to be a choice in my case and not in yours.
      You have not said, but you must believe that homosexuals were born that way. If you believe this then you are calling God a liar, because He did not create human beings to go against what he first created.
      Read Genesis..He created man, then woman from man’s rib…Get it?
      He did not create Adam and Freddy, but Adam and Eve.
      God does not endorse or give blessing to those who practice homosexuality, but will bring a delusion down on those who do not turn away from it. Delusion, means a deceptive understanding of the life He gave them.
      No matter what you have studied Cassandra, God has the final word about what He will allow for those He created.
      Romans 9 speaks about the Potter and the Clay…Does the Clay say to the Potter, WHY have you made me like this? NO, the Clay does not, but we say that all the time to God. God say to us in response. I have made you the way you are for my namesake. When you accept this and live as He intends, they you have peace in your soul and you know Him and a solid relationship begins to build between you and Him
      Cassandra, YOU do not know The Lord Jesus Christ and His grace. I can tell that right away from all your rhetoric and defensiveness about your lack of understanding of God. I don’t know what god you are speaking of, but it is not the God of the bible.
      Like I said before, you go on believing what you do and I really believe that one day you will know the truth of your beliefs. It will be too late for you then. You will be rejected by Christ as you rejected Him..Depart from ME you workers of iniquity, I never knew YOU, He will say.
      Again, another choice to your to decide. I hope you see the light one day Cassandra and the many of those who are in this room. God is speaking to you this day…

      Oct 9, 2010 at 1:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cassandra
      Cassandra

      “And I, too can read,that your opinion is set on what you believe.”

      That’s a bizarre criticism. It seems you mean it as an insult though, and so again, your belief causes you to sin.

      “All I can say is their is a judge and one day the deception that you have carried around in your head, will be revealed to you. It will be too late for you then.”

      And another derogatory assumption about me. Here’s the thing, B.Hill, you’re almost 30 years late. See, I went through the first 20 years of my life with a deception in my head – the idea that homosexuality is a sin, and it caused me tremendous pain. And then one day, God made it explicitly clear: homosexuality is not intrinsically sin, and, the bias against homosexuals is sin.

      Your threat ‘too late for you then’ indicates two things:
      1) you do no understand Christian theology at all
      2) you are only here to be abusive

      “The Lord says in his word, that people will replace the truth for a lie, believing not in what He tells them, but they have fabricated a story in their minds, so they can live in darkness, and do the things which are unnatural to His will for your life.”

      So, you have replaced the truth of God’s perfect justice, with a god that inspires you to genocide, with a belief that inspires hate crimes, a belief that causes you to sin over and over and over again.

      B.Hill, you direct your criticisms at me, but you are really writing to yourself. You fabricate stories in your head about my life, about the lives of GLBTQ people, so you can live in the darkness of hatred, pride and malice. Your prejudice is unnatural, your pride in your heterosexuality is sin.

      “I am done writing to you about this..”
      And yet, you posted again. Once again, there is no truth in your posts.

      “You continue to believe what you will. When you time comes to face the music of your life, you will then be reminded of all the many times you forsook the truth and continued on believing your lie.”

      As will you. Of course, I make no claim to be perfect, but, my sexual orienation is not sin, and neither is my relationship with my partner, approaching our 14th anniversary. Personally, my relationship with God is close enough that i ‘face the music’ for my failings and imperfections moment by moment, and strive to improve. Be aware of this, B.Hill, I am not the one here who has lied about the lives of millions of people, you are. I am not the one who has vilified the loving relationships of millions of people, you are. I am not the one who nurtures injustice and rebukes justice, you are.

      When I recognized my sexual orientation for what it is, I embraced the truth, B.Hill. The fact that homosexuality is innate, and not chosen, is the truth. You can make all of the empty, threatening denunciations you like, but you have lied repeatedly and consistently to me about things I know about first hand.

      “Life it up now Cassandra, because you have been warned!”

      Don’t worry about me, B.Hill. My salvation comes by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, rather than from threats by fallible bigots like yourself.

      From post 147:
      “I am all to willing to tell the truth and not be evasive, but you don’t want to hear, understand or believe truth.”

      Then you should start doing so, for you have not told the truth so far, as your own statement above indicates. Further, in two posts now you’ve said you are through posting, and then you continue to post. So much for telling the truth.

      “You have your studies that have led you to take the stand you do, whether is is truth or not.”

      Ah, “whether it is truth or not” – so you admit that you do not know the truth and when you claimed homosexuality was chosen, you were just parroting what you’d been told.

      Of course, you are lying about me again. I take the stand I have for the following reasons:
      1) direct revelation from God
      2) my experience of my sexuality
      3) the life stories of hundreds of GLBTQ people I have spoken with directly
      4) the life stories of hundreds of GLBTQ people I have read
      5) exhaustive study of the Bible
      6) hundreds of studies on human sexuality, natural history, hate crimes, prejudice, anti-gay bullying, and other related subjects

      “I told you a story about my wife and I and you don’t accept it. Why? Because your little world refuses it, saying that no person has ever changed from living a homosexual lifestyle to live a heterosexual lifestyle.”

      No, B.Hill. First off, I explained at length why I do not accept your story, so your false motive is another lie, and more evidence that you are not telling the truth in anything you post.

      I don’t accept your story for the following reasons:
      1) you’ve lied to me about my life
      2) you’ve lied about the lives of people I know personally
      3) you’ve lied about the lives of all GLBTQ people, claiming to know thing you simply cannot know
      4) you’ve misrepresented multiple passages from the Bible, and when called on it, simply ducked the issue
      5) you’ve lied about the nature of homosexual relationships through references to ‘homosexual lifestyle’.
      6) you’ve lied repeatedly about leaving, yet continue to post
      7) the exact story you presented has appeared by many different authors posting anti-gay hate speech
      8) there are hundreds of thousands of GLBTQ Christians who have tried ex-gay minstries, and all report complete failure – except for people on the payroll of ex-gay ministries.
      9) ex-gay ministries actually drive people to suicide
      10) ex-gay ministries encourage sham marriages, knowing those marriages are fraudulent
      11) I have personal experience with trying to ‘pray away the gay’
      12) Every premise in your account is false

      And most importantly, I offered you a chance to prove your story is true, and instead, you return with more insults and abuse. As I said before “If you disappear, if you throw insults, if you do anything other than accept, it will prove that you have lied to all of us.”

      Your own way to prove your story is to provide concrete, scientific evidence – a no-lie MRI and a sexual arousal test. Anything else confirms that your story is a hoax.

      “Our terminology may be different here is all I can think, but the practice of homosexuality proves to be a choice in my case and not in yours.”

      Here is the ugly lie at the heart of your claims. Homosexuality is not a practice, B.Hill. Homosexuality is the having gay sex, it is being emotionally, spiritually, physically and intellectually attracted to people of one’s one gender. A celibate virgin who is attracted to people of his own gender, is homosexual, just as a celibate virgin who is attracted to people of the opposite gender is heterosexual.

      Sexual activity does not determine one’s sexual orientation, it only expresses it. Your entire story is a fiction that is based on a lie about the lives and experiences of GLBTQ people.

      “the practice of homosexuality proves to be a choice in my case”
      That’s an interesting Freudian slip. Previously you had posted that your wife was the ex-gay.

      There is a difference between acting on one’s sexual orientation, B.Hill, and the orientation itself. A gay man who denies his homosexual orientation has only two choice, both destructive. He can live without intimacy, companionship and love his entire life, or he can lie to some poor woman, trick her into thinking he is attracted to her, fantasize about men to get hard on the rare occasions that he has sex with her and use her as an object to appease bigots.

      “You have not said, but you must believe that homosexuals were born that way. If you believe this then you are calling God a liar, because He did not create human beings to go against what he first created.
      Read Genesis..He created man, then woman from man’s rib…Get it?
      He did not create Adam and Freddy, but Adam and Eve.”

      Genesis plus the childish ‘adam and eve not adam and steve’.

      No, B.Hill, I’m not calling God a liar, because you are not God. Your interpretation of Genesis is erroneous, and that is what I, and millions of GLBTQ people reject. That does not equate to rejecting God, or calling God a liar. You are not God, but you have cast yourself as God in this discussion over and over again. That is the same mistake that is said to have caused Satan to fall.

      Continued in a separate post.

      Oct 9, 2010 at 2:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cassandra
      Cassandra

      B.Hill

      The Genesis account doesn’t help you, but, before I dig into it, I have to remind you that you have already taken Bible verses out of discussion, when you wrote:
      “Sure you studied the bible and know a lot of the verses of scripture, but then again, so did the pharisies in Jesus day.
      These men did not know God, but they could read scripture,”

      In that statement, you made your own interpretations suspect even as you tried to dismiss my understanding.

      Now, there are two separate accounts of the creation in Genesis, one which creates multiple men and women, and the more personalized account of Adam and Eve. So you’re use of Adam and Eve to prove anything is fraud.

      Second, to stay that Adam and Eve are the only acceptable model of intimate relationship, and that their physical characterists must be met by all couples, is neither biblical, or rational. Both Adam and Eve had physical characteristics that at some people on earth do not have. If Eve was brunette, your theory would require that only brunette women can have sex. If Adam had brown eyes, your theory would bar all blue-eyed and green-eyed men from having sex.

      Third, Genesis 2 makes it clear that the crucial factor in the relationship between Adam and Eve is not gender, but their ability to assist and nurture each other:
      18 The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”

      Suitable helper is the standard here, B.Hill, and to find it, God first sends all of the animals to Adam, to find Adam’s suitable helper:
      ” 19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.
      But for Adam [h] no suitable helper was found.”

      Now if this were just about sex, as you imply, you have God tempting Adam to commit bestiality. But of course it is not just about sex, but about something much greater than cannot breach the species boundary – spiritual and emotional union.

      Here’s the problem for your theology. For a gay man, no woman will ever be his “suitable helper”, but the right man will. For a lesbian, no man will ever be her “suitable helper”, but the right woman will. And so to with heterosexuals, for a het male, only a woman could be his suitable helper, for a het female, only a male could be her suitable helper.

      When you attempt to pressure GLBTQ people to go against the sexual orientation God has given them, you are trying to get them to disobey God. That is very serious, B.Hill.

      Now, I think one of the reasons you lie by saying that homosexuality is chosen is that you recognize that if you accept that it is innate, that you are telling people to do what is unnatural to them, and presenting God as unjust and abusive.

      Since homosexuality is innate and natural, your belief that God condemns homosexuality means that God is unjust, unfair – he creates people with a capacity for love and intimacy and then forbids them to ever express it, while their neighbors and friends, siblings, parents, all get to have loving intimate relationships. That is extraordinarily unjust, cruel, and degrading. And it is the god you are offering people here.

      Let’s take another Bible verse, B.Hill: Romans 1
      20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

      Here we learn that the creation itself reveals God’s qualities. Well, the creation itself contains not only homosexual humans, but thousands of other species of life in which homosexuality is a naturally occurring variation of sexuality. Further, the creation has a wide variety of sexualities, from parthenogenesis – females reproducing without males – to hermaphrodism, asexuality, and species that have thousands of genders. The creation reveals that God does not particularly favor or prefer heterosexuals.

      And neither does the Bible. Genesis three contains the very first curses, or judgments, from God on anyone or anything. The first falls on the serpent, but the second is directed at Eve:

      16 To the woman he said,
      “I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
      with pain you will give birth to children.
      Your desire will be for your husband,
      and he will rule over you.”
      So the first curse on humans directly targets one of the consequences of heterosexual intercourse. And for most of human history, the leading cause of death for women has been complications from pregnancy.

      The second half could be seen as saying that heterosexuality, at least for women is a punishment for sin.

      So much for your sense of heterosexual superiority as a God-ordained privilege.

      “God does not endorse or give blessing to those who practice homosexuality, but will bring a delusion down on those who do not turn away from it. Delusion, means a deceptive understanding of the life He gave them.”

      Your theology only gets more and more ugly. No wonder so many atheists here think God is a monster. Delusion is a kind of lie, B.Hill, so your theology above asserts that God lies to people.

      Frankly, it is malevolent and hateful of you to declare that my understanding of my life, my relationship with God, and my experiences are delusion, when you have nothing but your own guesses to go on. Once again, B.Hill, this is sinful pride at work in your life, causing you to believe that your intellect is so supreme, you can reason away the truths of our lives.

      “No matter what you have studied Cassandra, God has the final word about what He will allow for those He created.”

      That is something you should consider yourself.

      The Romans 9 stuff deserves a post of its own.

      Oct 9, 2010 at 2:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      Cassandra, why or why do you take anything that is truth worthy and then distort is with the brown-eye, blue-eyes theory?

      It is very plain in the text…That God created Adam, because he saw that God had created many animals, who had mates, but NO mate was in sight for HIM…
      God made him a mate…EVE This is very simple reading,bu of course you still have to prove your lesbian lifestyle by distorting the a very simple truth.

      This is what I mean by God left you to your own desires. You totally disregard any truth He has told you..My God in Heaven is working RIGHT NOW to help you, but you say NO to his grace.

      You accuse me of taking the scriptures out of context, but what is so hard about seeing the FACT that God created man and woman, and NOT man and man OR Woman and Woman to live in harmony with one another? What???

      You live in a delusional world, supporting your theories about the gay lifestyle with stories of people who agree with the life.

      I do not try to change your opinions or lifestyles. I can’t do that! Even God will not force you to change what you “CHOSE” to do. But, you will incur a very terrible judgement one day because of your choice. This is in the bible as well.

      God did not create us without a manual. You can chose to read the manual and apply those truths..Or not! You have shown me that you say..NOT!

      I am OK by your decision to live the way you want…If you saw a person, walking down the street, who was going to step into an hole, where the cover had been taken away…Would you be concerned for this person? Would you try to get this persons attention to avoid the hole? Do you even…care?

      I do! I am not afraid to tell you are wrong, Cassandra…You do not intimidate me with all your fancy grammar and intelligence. I just see you as a candidate for God’s amazing grace.

      NOW, I have no more to write to you because you are not open for truth, but arguments only to prove me wrong and you OK..

      But, I do want you to know, that I am going to be praying a lot for you..In the coming weeks and months, you will be experiencing a lot of inner feelings and thoughts to consider for yourself.

      God did not bring me into discussion with you for no reason. I do not believe in fate or near misses. God has shown me over 24 years that He answers my prayers of concern.. You will be in the forefront of my prayers. I will pray for you say and night until the Lord tells me to stop…You are on His radar screen!

      Oct 9, 2010 at 3:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cassandra
      Cassandra

      B.Hill

      “Romans 9 speaks about the Potter and the Clay…Does the Clay say to the Potter, WHY have you made me like this? NO, the Clay does not, but we say that all the time to God.”

      It is interesting that you mention the passage in Romans 9:

      “19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ “[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? ”

      You lie about the nature of homosexuality, declaring it to be a choice, precisely to avoid the challenge that verses like the above create.

      Homosexuality is natural and innate, it is how some people are born, it is how some people are created by God. Yet the theology you have presented puts GLBTQ people in position of saying “People hate me, abuse me, why did you make me like this?”

      More sinfully, you are effectively saying to God “why did you make those people like that?”

      Does the fact that God makes some people to be gay or lesbian mean that God is unjust? No. God is perfectly just. But anti-gay theology creates injustice, it demands that gay and lesbian people endure a deprivation heterosexuals do not. Since God is just, and anti-gay theology is intrinsically unjust, anti-gay theology cannot come from God.

      It comes the most common source of injustice – sinful, fallible, pride-consumed human beings.

      “God say to us in response. I have made you the way you are for my namesake.”

      Which is precisely what I, and GLBTQ Christians have been saying from the start. When will you accept that,B.Hill?

      “When you accept this and live as He intends, they you have peace in your soul and you know Him and a solid relationship begins to build between you and Him.”

      B.Hill, every time you assume ugly things about me, you sin. Your assumption that I do not have peace in my soul, etc, is sin. The fact is, ever since I accepted my sexuality as a gift from God, I have had deep and unquenchable peace in my soul, and a relationship with God that is so solid, I can debate with you even as you revile and libel me, my friends, my beloved partner, and millions of other human beings. From the moment I accepted myself as God created me, no insult from you, or any homophobe can ever, or has ever shaken my faith in God.

      “Cassandra, YOU do not know The Lord Jesus Christ and His grace. I can tell that right away from all your rhetoric and defensiveness about your lack of understanding of God.”

      You are bearing false witness again, B.Hill, and that is sin. Please repent.

      Given how consistently you have sinned, and how you have defended and encouraged sin and injustice and deception, it is clear that ‘what you can tell’ about anything is clouded by your own ego and pride.

      You are relying on insults and abusive judgments, B.Hill, instead of even attempting to refute my statements about what the Bible says on homosexuality.

      “I don’t know what god you are speaking of, but it is not the God of the bible.”

      So you admit that you do not know God. Every statement I’ve made about the nature of God comes from the Bible, B.Hill.

      At this point, it is important to cut to your last statement, because I believe it clarifies where you are coming from, theologically:

      “God is speaking to you this day…”

      After repeatedly reviling and insulting me, you close as above. You are the one “speaking” in your posts, so the sentence quoted above indicates that you have cast yourself as God.

      I’ve often argued that anti-gay theology is a form of idolatry, that homophobes set themselves up as gods, vindictive, cruel, capricious gods, who judge and condemn other people in order to create injustice.

      B.Hill, you are not God, and God is not speaking in your posts. Your posts nurture destruction and injustice, God condemns injustice.

      “Like I said before, you go on believing what you do and I really believe that one day you will know the truth of your beliefs.”

      I already do know the truth of my beliefs, and have been articulating them all along. What you are really saying is that you hope that someday I will abandon God and obey you and your peers instead.

      “It will be too late for you then. You will be rejected by Christ as you rejected Him..”

      Very abusive, B.Hill. Such hate speech can only be answered with one thing: please repent of your sins against, B.Hill, so that I may forgive you.

      Oct 9, 2010 at 3:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cassandra
      Cassandra

      “Depart from ME you workers of iniquity, I never knew YOU, He will say.”

      Now this is good. This passage comes from Matthew 7:15-23

      Matthew 7:15-23 (New International Version)

      15″Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

      21″Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

      I consider it fraud on your part that you used only the end of this passage, by the way.

      What we have here is a test for right or accurate teaching. False teaching, Jesus says, produces evil fruit – destruction, injustice, deception, hate, malice, brutality, torture. In short, all of the ways that ‘homosexuality is sin’ has been and still is expressed in the world today.

      Your belief that homosexuality is sin fails the good tree/good fruit evil tree/evil fruit test. You have again cited a passage that rebukes your own behavior and beliefs.

      The NIV uses “evil doers” in the last sentence, other translations use “workers of inequity”. The concept involved in inequality, B.Hill, the very thing you have been defending and exalting.

      Here, at least, you are a worker of iniquity, trying to sustain and create inequality, teaching something that destroys lives, faith, families, relationships, trust. The evil fruit of your belief ‘homosexuality is sin’ is proof that your belief does not come from God.

      “Again, another choice to your to decide. I hope you see the light one day Cassandra and the many of those who are in this room. God is speaking to you this day…”

      Again, we find you hoping for harm to come to people, that they surrender to your ego and pride and place your will in supremacy over their lives.

      Oct 9, 2010 at 3:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      Cassandra,

      The Lord has NOT accepted your lifestyle…You deceive yourself. You tell me that I am sinning against you..NOT so!

      I care enough about you and are willing to pray for your salvation. You are a thinker and God will use this to condemn your choice for the Gay lifestyle, NOT you.

      I don’t sin against you, only trying to reach you with God’s Truth. My motives are completely pure in mind…

      If you were so content with your lifestyle, you would not have to be so adamant about defending it as a way of life, especially when the scriptures condemn it.. You are living in sin and you are NOT aware of it..YET!

      Oct 9, 2010 at 3:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pete
      pete

      @B. Hill: @Cassandra: You two are so completely fucked up!

      Oct 9, 2010 at 3:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cassandra
      Cassandra

      B.Hill

      You wrote: “I am done writing to you about this..” and yet you continue to post. Your word clearly has no value even to you, you say you will do one thing, and then do the opposite.

      “Cassandra, why or why do you take anything that is truth worthy and then distort is with the brown-eye, blue-eyes theory?”

      In other words you cannot refute what I posted. Your interpretation is that only sexual relationships that match the physical qualities present in the relationship of Adam and Eve are acceptable – and insult away the challenge to that irrational assertion.

      “It is very plain in the text…That God created Adam, because he saw that God had created many animals, who had mates, but NO mate was in sight for HIM…”

      The text makes no mention that the animals had mates. So you are again making a false claim. The text does not use the term mate at all. It uses a far deeper term, one that indicates a relationship much greater than mere sex.

      “God made him a mate…EVE This is very simple reading,bu of course you still have to prove your lesbian lifestyle by distorting the a very simple truth.”

      The problem is that no where does it say that Adam and Eve are the standard defining anyone else’s relationship. And please repent of your lie ‘the lesbian lifestyle’ and your false accusation ‘distorting a very simple truth’.

      Simply accusing me of distortion is just malice and pride, and contributes nothing but malice and pride to the discussion.

      “This is what I mean by God left you to your own desires. You totally disregard any truth He has told you..My God in Heaven is working RIGHT NOW to help you, but you say NO to his grace.”

      Again, your pride is getting the best of you. The fact that I refute your theology doesn’t indicate anything about my relationship with God, B.Hill, because you are not God. I am refuting your beliefs, arguing with you, not with God.

      You are not God, and never, ever will be my god. Get that dream out of your heart now.

      “You accuse me of taking the scriptures out of context, but what is so hard about seeing the FACT that God created man and woman, and NOT man and man OR Woman and Woman to live in harmony with one another? What???”

      First off, God did not create marriage. You are confusing gender, in a metaphorical story, with sexual orientation. The fact that in the Genesis account God creates a person of one gender, and then a person of the other gender, doesn’t mean that God only approves of heterosexuality. Sexual orientation and gender are separate things.

      Second, your fixation on heterosexuality as the only God approved norm ignores the fact that on this created world, which reveals the truths of God, most life is asexual. By volume and number of species, heterosexuality is a minor variation of sexuality. Most life is asexual – bacteria, viruses, single-celled organisms. Of the rest, most plant life is hermaphroditic, having both male and female reproductive parts at the same time. Other plants, and animals, reproduce by budding, change genders over the course of their life, and some fungi have hundreds of genders. Among vertebrates, homosexuality is a naturally occurring variation.

      The created world simply doesn’t support your hetero-centric theology.

      “You live in a delusional world, supporting your theories about the gay lifestyle with stories of people who agree with the life.”

      Once again, you rely on sin to defend your theology.

      “I do not try to change your opinions or lifestyles. I can’t do that!”

      Wait a minute. The honest purpose of any dialogue like this is to convince others. If you are not trying to convince people, then that means your only purpose here was to be abusive, degrading, inflammatory and malicious.

      “Even God will not force you to change what you “CHOSE” to do. But, you will incur a very terrible judgement one day because of your choice. This is in the bible as well.”

      Keep in mind that you keep choosing injustice and degradation to express your spirituality.

      “God did not create us without a manual. You can chose to read the manual and apply those truths..Or not! You have shown me that you say..NOT!”

      Again, your ugly insults are sin, and do nothing to substantiate your claims. You are judging me:

      Matthew 7:
      1″Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

      3″Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

      Perhaps you should stop, repent, and ask for forgiveness, B.Hill. You have sinned against me many times, and I will gladly forgive you, but you must repent.

      “I am OK by your decision to live the way you want…”
      Yet you spend posts after post reviling me. When you will start telling the truth about, well, anything?

      “If you saw a person, walking down the street, who was going to step into an hole, where the cover had been taken away…Would you be concerned for this person? Would you try to get this persons attention to avoid the hole? Do you even…care?”

      Why do you think I am taking the time to point out that your theology, homosexuality is sin, destroys people?

      “I do!”

      No. You seek to subordinate others to your will.

      “I am not afraid to tell you are wrong,”

      Even though I am not. Are you afraid to repent of your sins against me? Are you afraid to tell the truth? Are you afraid to let go of pride? Are you afraid to be no better and no worse than people like me?

      “Cassandra…You do not intimidate me with all your fancy grammar and intelligence.”

      Interesting that you should even raise the issue. You are the one trying to intimidate people, with your threats of eternal damnation.

      “I just see you as a candidate for God’s amazing grace.”
      I have been a recipient of God’s amazing grace for nearly 5 decades, baptized just hours after birth.

      “NOW, I have no more to write to you because you are not open for truth, but arguments only to prove me wrong and you OK..”

      So we have another empty promise from you coupled with another derogatory comment about my character, though you have yet to disprove any point I have made.

      “But, I do want you to know, that I am going to be praying a lot for you..”

      Please, do not. Your prayers come from malice and contempt and hate, and I believe they will backfire on you. With all the ugly assumptions you have about me, your prayers will be entirely sinful, and you risk the very wrath you invoked earlier.

      “God did not bring me into discussion with you for no reason. I do not believe in fate or near misses. God has shown me over 24 years that He answers my prayers of concern.. ”

      There’s that pride thing again. Pride is sin, B.Hill.

      God did not bring you into this discussion, B.Hill; your pride and perhaps Google and pictures of barely dressed men brought you here. You thought you were superior to us, that you could lecture and judge and rebuke us, so that you could condemn justice and exalt injustice. You came here, however you were lead, to defend injustice, and that is not Godly behavior.

      All of your posts were abusive, they do not reflect God, B.Hill, they reflect your heart – all of the anger and hate and misery and pride and greed contained within.

      “You will be in the forefront of my prayers. I will pray for you say and night until the Lord tells me to stop…You are on His radar screen!”

      Do not, because your prayers come from hate.

      Oct 9, 2010 at 4:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cassandra
      Cassandra

      B.Hill,

      Repeatedly, you have said that you were done here, only to post again. That means that each time you said you were done, you were telling a lie.

      That indicates that, very probably, nothing you post is truthful.

      “The Lord has NOT accepted your lifestyle…You deceive yourself. You tell me that I am sinning against you..NOT so!”

      Homosexuality is not a lifestyle, so you cannot be accusing on that account. So, what else is there? I attend church regularly, volunteer a lot, pay my bills on time, feed my pets appropriately, conserve energy and water, vote every election, go to the grocery store and pay with atm, work hard, do laundry after peak energy hours, what part of my lifestyle exact is God unhappy with? Why isn’t God telling directly?

      Oh, I know. Because it isn’t God who is unhappy, it is you who are unhappy with my life, you just blame your words on God.

      “I care enough about you and are willing to pray for your salvation.”

      You do not care, B.Hill, for you have shown no concern whatsoever about the destructive consequences of your ugly theology. The very theology and prejudice you post here, drove several teens to kill themselves last month, and agencies that work with suicidal teens report that September was not an unusual month – every month anti-gay theology drives GLBTQ Christian and non-Christian teens to commit suicide in despair.

      Anti-gay theology also drives too many heterosexual to commit murder – a terrible sin that is repeatedly condemned in the Bible. It causes you to lie, over and over and over again. Anti-gay theology drives people to create and worship injustice and discrimination, to deny others grace, liberty and love.

      You don’t care about us, you care about you, about getting your way in my life and in the lives of others.

      “You are a thinker and God will use this to condemn your choice for the Gay lifestyle, NOT you.”

      Again, there is no gay lifestyle, homosexuality is not a sin, and it is not chosen.

      “I don’t sin against you,”
      You have sinned against me repeatedly. Please repent. I would appreciate the opportunity to forgive you.

      “only trying to reach you with God’s Truth.”
      Your truth is not God’s truth, your truth is injustice, genocide and murder, brutality and deprivation.

      “My motives are completely pure in mind…”
      Please at least attempt to tell the truth.

      “If you were so content with your lifestyle, you would not have to be so adamant about defending it as a way of life,”

      What a bizarre thing. Let’s see. You are reviling people I care about, so according to your theory, if I really cared about them, I would not defend them.

      How bizarre.

      I defend my life, my faith and spirituality, my spouse and my friends and all of the GLBTQ people you are verbally and spiritually abusing, because I love and respect them, as an expression of my faith.

      Of course, content is a very selfish standard, it means having everything you want or need, regardless of others. It looks like you are saying that as long as I’ve got mine, I shouldn’t work against the injustice you are creating. What a sinful thing to say.

      And why should I, or anyone, be content with injustice and discrimination, with theology that creates hatred and contempt and which feeds the prejudice of atheism? Seeing that you are creating injustice, shouldn’t any disciple of Christ, any Christian, come forward and say “You are harming people and making false statements about God”.

      “especially when the scriptures condemn it.. ”
      Since the Scripture does not condemn homosexuality, and since you punted on even trying to refute my repudiation of anti-gay theology, your assertion is a dishonest and abusive lie.

      “You are living in sin and you are NOT aware of it..YET!”

      Once again, B.Hill:

      Matthew 7:
      1″Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

      3″Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

      Oct 9, 2010 at 4:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      Cassandra,
      You continue to condemn yourself by your very own words.

      you’re almost 30 years late. See, I went through the first 20 years of my life with a deception in my head – the idea that homosexuality is a sin

      You were being beckoned by your wrongful actions, then you made things alright for yourself by believing another lie, saying that God approved of your beliefs…amazing!

      I know this was not easy for you either, but you did not go in the right and pure direction…That being to ask the Lord for forgiveness, confess your life as sin and turn from it..

      John 3: 16 John 14: 6 Ephesians 2: 8-9 1 Corinthians 15: 3-4

      Instead, you made another “Choice” and that was to turn away from God’s way to seek YOUR way…Put God in your little box, nice and tidy and believe another lie. The devil won a battle you over long ago, but he has not won the war.

      He stands condemn and will be thrown in the Lake of Fire at the Lord’s appointed time Rev 19-20 along with all the fallen angels and people who rejected His provision of salvation. You do not have the salvation of God…You don’t!
      You can’t believe and do what you do….and believe in Jesus, too. Impossible!

      Hebrew 12:4-11 speaks of God discipline on His children, to turn them back to Himself…

      If you are having an extremely peaceful time in your life, maintaining a homosexual lifestyle, then you are not His.

      Because God scourges everyone of His own, just like a father does when his children go astray..

      Want to speak about Facts Cassandra..This is a Fact! So, stop telling me that I am in sin because I tell you the truth…OH, guess what, Jesus said the same thing.

      Why do you include false and true in one assertion of ignorance? Perhaps you pretend not to know which is true in order that it may be safe for you, whenever you may please, to defend the false.

      Oct 9, 2010 at 4:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      Is there a difference between changing ones mind and lying?? Not with you I suppose…

      I was only keeping up with the dialog to answer your comments…

      OK…I am done now…Promise…Now that I have promised you something

      if I do not do it..Then it is a lie…

      Oct 9, 2010 at 4:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cassandra
      Cassandra

      B.Hill

      You keep saying you are done, and then continue to post. That makes each “I’m done” a lie.

      “You were being beckoned by your wrongful actions, then you made things alright for yourself by believing another lie, saying that God approved of your beliefs…amazing!”

      No. You are lying again, B.Hill. You were not there, you do not read minds, at least not accurately, you do not know.

      At the time I spoke of, the only actions I’d experienced were emotional, I fell in love. And because of the sick theology you are sharing, I spent years begging God, flat on my belly in front of the altar, to make me heterosexual. And more that I will not make available for your contempt and lies.

      Nor were you there when God spoke to me, and made it clear that the my sexual orientation was a gift from Him to me, and that spiritual and emotional agony I had experienced over my sexuality was not because homosexuality is sin, but because I had allowed fallible, mean-spirited humans like yourself, to come between me and God.

      You are not going to get in the way again.

      “I know this was not easy for you either, but you did not go in the right and pure direction…That being to ask the Lord for forgiveness, confess your life as sin and turn from it..”

      You don’t know anything, B.Hill. You project, fantasize and lie.

      Sadly, you do not realize how horrible your lie is, because I did indeed go in the right and pure direction – toward love, justice, grace. I went away from you and people like you, away from hate and malice, persecution and torment, injustice, pride and ego.

      “Instead, you made another “Choice” and that was to turn away from God’s way to seek YOUR way…”

      Please stop bearing false witness against me.

      B.Hill, you cannot know my life. You simply cannot. Your assertions reflect your guesses, and they are ugly and hateful guesses, which reflect your heart, not my life.

      “Put God in your little box,”

      LOL. You have no idea how wrong you are about my beliefs.

      “nice and tidy and believe another lie. The devil won a battle you over long ago, but he has not won the war.”

      More abuse. Do you genuinely not recognize how abusive and degrading your remarks are? Are you really that far gone?

      “You can’t believe and do what you do….and believe in Jesus, too. Impossible!”

      How many times has some atheist said that to me. It is remarkable how similar homophobic Christians are to atheists. Both seek to make themselves the arbiters of other people’s experiences and lives.

      Of course, B.Hill, with God, all things are possible.

      “If you are having an extremely peaceful time in your life, maintaining a homosexual lifestyle, then you are not His.”

      No, then I’m not yours, nor do I belong to any homophobe.

      “Because God scourges everyone of His own, just like a father does when his children go astray..”

      My homosexuality is not a sin.

      “Want to speak about Facts Cassandra..This is a Fact!”

      But it was not, so again, you are being dishonest.

      “So, stop telling me that I am in sin because I tell you the truth…”

      You are not telling the truth, you have consistently lied about my life. You are stating things that you think are the truth, that you have fabricated in your head, but those things are not the truth, they are lies you have invented. So, yes, you have repeatedly sinned against me.

      I ask you yet again, B.Hill, please, please repent of your sins against me, give me the opportunity to forgive you.

      “Why do you include false and true in one assertion of ignorance?”
      I don’t. Why do you make false accusations, even though doing so is a sin?

      “Perhaps you pretend not to know which is true in order that it may be safe for you, whenever you may please, to defend the false.”

      Are you projecting again?

      Oct 9, 2010 at 4:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cassandra
      Cassandra

      “Is there a difference between changing ones mind and lying?? Not with you I suppose…”

      You commit to something, and then chose not to keep that commitment. Is that not dishonest? Does it not mean that your word is worthless, that you’ll say anything?

      I have been around enough to know what the “I’m leaving” thing is about – it is supposed to be a way of getting the last word, its a way of saying “I’m going to tell you off, but you are not to respond because I’m leaving” – only you don’t leave.

      “I was only keeping up with the dialog to answer your comments…”
      So you have an excuse for not doing what you said you would, does that make your words any less dishonest?

      “OK…I am done now…Promise…Now that I have promised you something

      if I do not do it..Then it is a lie…”

      Your posts have been full of lies from the start. Let’s see if you can actually be honest and live honestly by resisting the urge to sin here with another post.

      Oct 9, 2010 at 4:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jeffree
      Jeffree

      Do ++NOT++ feed the trollls — it only encourages them. We *never* will change their mind.

      @Cassandra: I may not share your faith, but you are always *very* impressive when the fundies come a’knockin’on our door. Thank you !

      Oct 9, 2010 at 6:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      Jeffree,
      I totally disagree with you. We always must be engaged with people who are destined for a life apart from Jesus Christ.
      You think you can waltz into this room, say your few arrogant bit of nothing, and praised someone for their articulate way of denying the truth.
      You did nothing to bring about truth and understanding. You came into the room, thinking yourself more than you ought..

      I would like to read the exchange between you and Casandra. My bet is that she would eat you up…because you are the type of person that “thinks” you are above anyone else in truth and understanding.

      These people are not “Trolls” but human beings that caught up in a lifestyle that has overwhelmed them over years. There is hope for us all, including them…
      For you, stop making me puke with your supreme attitude you jerk!

      Oct 10, 2010 at 12:07 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • corey
      corey

      It is my belief you are not born gay. Did you know that when you were born you’d be become a lawyer, doctor, or a teacher? Probably not. Life is made of choices, you choose to be who you are and what you are about. There are mental disabilities that keep people from fully understanding the choices of life, so they are chosen for them. Maybe those who claim to be gay have a mental disability that does not let them make sound decisions when it comes to a “natural” sexual attraction. I believe these are influenced by your surroundings. Most gays I have spoke with have had some sort of event that coincides with their openess of being gay Insecurity, rape, low self-esteem, broken home, abuse- mental or physical, again surrounding-based on others influence. I believe that the majority of this is based on rejection of the opposite sex, either brought on by themself or have had experiences with rejection. “We” and every animal on this planet are naturally wired to reproduce, it is instinct. Even the earliest known humans knew how to reproduce with the opposite sex. If it weren’t for them and their sex we would not be debating over why this Company refused to make some cupcakes. Look at all these animals that travel 1000’s of miles a year just to reproduce, it is instinct and it is wired in the DNA to make this happen. Without they no longer exsist. And the Religious part of this. Bible this and Bible that…. God created us to reproduce. Who cares about the whole Bible telling us this is wrong. From what I believe, we are all saved by Grace. I do not support Gays in anyway. I believe they should not be able to adopt children, before I say this I know not all but I believe these childrens minds are perverted into thinking that being Gay is a “normal” thing. And honestly it is not. But back to Grace, I believe that we are all saved by Grace, God apparently knew this World wouldn’t of lasted if it wasn’t for that. But there is no way a homosexual can tell me they are a Christian and be gay at the same time. To be a Christian is to live a certain way. And I do not believe gay is part of the Christian way of life. Christianity is a religion, maybe you believe in Christianity, but not in the same way you say you are Christian. Being a Christian is to be living based on the example of Jesus, I do not believe he was gay. Maybe the Catholic Church will feed lies to you, you know how they are. So to be gay. I would recommend you forget about everything this World has to teach, become an atheist, and live your life gay, because eventually you will all become extinct. I do not put this on here to bash any one person or persons. These are my beliefs, I know they are not shared by all and I respect everyone’s point of view. I do have gay siblings that I love and they respect my beliefs, just as I respect theirs. I do not think God hates gays or anything else. I believe that we are all created in his image, but just as Eve disobeyed God in the beginning we still struggle to obey God with what we have created in this World.

      Oct 10, 2010 at 11:33 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chris H
      Chris H

      @corey: a) When did you make the conscious choice to be straight? Please tell me the exact date and time, because since it’s a choice, this should be such a monumental choice that you remember exactly when, right?

      b) The theory that people “become” gay because of rape, incest, abuse, or low self-esteem has been debunked by every single social science study that has come out. Gays and straights have the same percentage of abuse and self-esteem issues as the rest of the population, we are just likely to be more vocal about it. Please show me any evidence (you know, proof?) you have of this, other than your own misguided opinion and hear-say.

      c) Homosexuality in non-human animals has been the hot topic recently in animal researchers, and finally we are getting confirmation that homosexuality is seen in more than 4000+ current species (the number is rising constantly as researchers keep reporting). Not only sex, either, relationships. Penguins, dolphins, bonobos, elephants, black swans, etc etc ad nauseum. Evolutionary researchers have several theories (the scientific, observable, provable ones, not your opinion that you call a “theory”) that homosexuality is actually an evolutionary mechanism that increases the fertility of the mother and increases the well-being of the community.
      So thanks for worrying about how populations have survived this far with us fags, but it looks like if it weren’t for us, YOU might not have been born.

      d) We don’t give a shit about your religious beliefs, keep it out of the public sector. If you really want to get your ass torn into about your religion, keep going, and wait for the wrath of Cassandra. Oh, and I love your bit about the Catholic Church. You’re such a bigot you even discriminate against people who share your overarching faith! Wow.

      Oct 10, 2010 at 1:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @corey:

      Maybe those who claim to be gay have a mental disability that does not let them make sound decisions when it comes to a “natural” sexual attraction. I believe these are influenced by your surroundings. Most gays I have spoke with have had some sort of event that coincides with their openess of being gay Insecurity, rape, low self-esteem, broken home, abuse- mental or physical, again surrounding-based on others influence.

      I have mentioned this before myself and do not know the background or practice for being gay, but yes, influence is one big factor that brings…or even stronger, sucks an average young person into a life style of Homosexuality.

      Most gay people will not admit this, because it is easier for them say they were “born” homosexuals and not take accountability for being gay.

      See, gay people get pounded all the time about being gay by people who are straight and how God does not accept them. Well, that is what they “hear” but actually, God does NOT hate homosexuals…He hates their sin. In fact, God hates ALL sin.

      Homosexuals are making a decision…a choice, to live the way they want. God says, that He beckons for them to come to Him, but they say NO to Him, then proceed to live the way they have been. They become callus and continue to practice homosexual behavior, and before they know it, they are dull to any hearing of the word of God against their sin…They repudiate any truth on the subject and become darkened in their hearts…This is what God says.

      In the same way it applies to you and I, if we practice, say viewing pornography in magazines or internet. If we don’t confess it as sin against God, he will send discipline into our lives..Maybe sickness, maybe loss of job, maybe loss of opportunity for a long time and or even loss of our lives on earth. He steps up the discipline to match our resistance to do His will.

      In the case with people who do not know Jesus Christ, he beckons them to come to Him and the people say NO..They say NO long enough that He leaves them to their own devises..They are stuck in them and in many cases, for the remainder of their natural lives.

      People always tell me…That they don’t believe in a God that would throw them into Hell.. I say to them, He doesn’t throw anyone into Hell…They choice to spend their eternal life in Hell..They were the ones to reject His provision of grace..to Believe in the son of God (Jesus Christ) for their salvation. It was they themselves who said NO to Him and went off to establish their own righteousness and way (practice) of life.
      So when they meet Him one day..and we all will give an account, they will be separated from Him…He will tell them, that He never knew them..They never came to Him when they lived on earth, so they are not of His righteousness to enter heaven.

      Only a small percent of homosexuals will one day understand what I wrote above, but most will sadly go their own way and continue to reject God’s grace to them and continue to bash Christian ideals and beliefs as a myth to living life.

      The only difference between you and I and the people who practice homosexuality…is God’s unfounded grace of salvation….It’s not that I am better than they, but I am better off..because I have Christ.

      Oct 10, 2010 at 3:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cassandra
      Cassandra

      Cory

      Well, I had expected B.Hill to create a sockpuppet to help him.

      “It is my belief you are not born gay. Did you know that when you were born you’d be become a lawyer, doctor, or a teacher?”

      So your opening salvo is to tell us that you do not know the difference between intrinsic traits and those that are demonstrably the product of knowledge.

      People go to school to become doctors and lawyers, they take tests to prove that they have acquired the requisite knowledge. No one has to go to school to learn to be heterosexual, or bisexual, or homosexual.

      Essentially, your belief is that millions of human beings are wrong about their own lives. Do you recognize how arrogant that is?

      “Life is made of choices, you choose to be who you are and what you are about.”

      Not everything in life is a choice. No one, really, chooses his or her gender, not even transgendered folk. No one chooses his skin color, eye color, or natural hair color. No one chooses how tall they will be. Handedness and perfect pitch are not chosen. Heterosexuality is not chosen.

      But the ignorance you are displaying is the result of a choice you made and continue to make.

      “There are mental disabilities that keep people from fully understanding the choices of life, so they are chosen for them. Maybe those who claim to be gay have a mental disability that does not let them make sound decisions when it comes to a “natural” sexual attraction.”

      People who have been to school, called Psychologists and Psychiatrists, have refuted your theory. Interestingly enough, anti-gay prejudice fits quite well within their criteria for mental illness.

      “I believe these are influenced by your surroundings.”
      This theory has also been refuted by science. However, we do know that surrounding/environment do play a role in creating the mental illness of prejudice.

      “Most gays I have spoke with have had some sort of event that coincides with their openess of being gay Insecurity, rape, low self-esteem, broken home, abuse- mental or physical, again surrounding-based on others influence.”

      Funny, I know hundreds of GLBTQ people, and most do not have such histories, and yet, many of the heterosexuals I know do. Perhaps heterosexuality is a mental illness and is the broken of tragic and terrible events.

      “I believe that the majority of this is based on rejection of the opposite sex,”

      Your belief does not fit the testimony of GLBTQ people across cultures, history, ethnicity, gender, and other demographic groupings.

      What does it mean when someone clings to a vision of something that completely contradicts the actual testimony of those experiencing that something?

      “either brought on by themself or have had experiences with rejection.”

      Funny, an awful lot of heterosexuals complain all the time about being rejected by the opposite sex. Perhaps all this rejection of each other is what causes heterosexuals to be heterosexual.

      “”We” and every animal on this planet are naturally wired to reproduce, it is instinct.”

      However, homosexuality has been documented, in the wild, in thousands of other species. Heterosexuality is not the only reproductive strategy on this planet, in fact, the most abundant lifeforms, by both volume and numbers, reproduce asexually.

      I realize that you are trying to fabricate a non-religious argument, but, science indicates that homosexuality is one of the many variations of sexuality on this planet. It is not a mental illness, it is not the product of trauma.

      “Even the earliest known humans knew how to reproduce with the opposite sex.”

      And our closest relatives, species-wise, also engage in homosexuality, even more than humans do.

      “If it weren’t for them and their sex we would not be debating over why this Company refused to make some cupcakes.”

      But not every human has to reproduce. In many species, particularly social ones like us, and particularly those with an extended infancy, like us, there are always non-reproductive members in every group. For many species, if every adult reproduced, the species would go extinct, because a pair of adults cannot provide for and protect their young successfully, often enough, to perpetuate the species. That’s why wolves live in packs, though only the alphas get to reproduce.

      “Look at all these animals that travel 1000’s of miles a year just to reproduce, it is instinct and it is wired in the DNA to make this happen.”

      Look at all of the animals that engage in sex with others of their own gender. Look at all of the species wherein only a relatively few individuals ever reproduce – from social insects like wasps, bees and ants, and ants are among the most successful lifeforms on the planet – to wolves, apes, deer, elk, sheep, etc.

      “Without they no longer exsist.”
      Of course, the bulk of life on this planet reproduces asexually.

      “we are all saved by Grace.I do not support Gays in anyway.”

      So, grace is only for you to receive, not for you to give.

      “I believe they should not be able to adopt children, before I say this I know not all but I believe these childrens minds are perverted into thinking that being Gay is a “normal” thing.”

      So you are a bigot.

      “And honestly it is not.”

      Normal is subjective. Homosexuality may not be normal for you, but it is for homosexuals. Light skin is not normal for some people, but it is for others. Having a penis is not normal for people with the YY chromosome set, but it is normal for people with the XY set.

      Portraying your perception of normal as everyone’s normal, is not honest, just arrogant.

      “But there is no way a homosexual can tell me they are a Christian and be gay at the same time.”

      Again, GLBTQ people can say “I am a Christian”. Your clumsy grammar reveals how foolish your position is. What you mean, but won’t admit to, is that you refuse to believe GLBTQ Christians. You talk about grace, but have none for other people.

      “To be a Christian is to live a certain way.”
      No, not really. A Christian is someone who puts their trust in Jesus Christ.

      “And I do not believe gay is part of the Christian way of life.”
      And yet it is.

      “Christianity is a religion, maybe you believe in Christianity, but not in the same way you say you are Christian. Being a Christian is to be living based on the example of Jesus, I do not believe he was gay.”

      This is just silly. Jesus was also male, by your argument, women cannot be Christians. Jesus was also a Jew, and very probably, did not have light skin and blond hair, so by your argument no scandinavian, for example, could be a Christian.

      The example Jesus set was not a sexual one, by the way. It was an example though of justice, compassion, acceptance – all traits that are demonstrably missing from your post. Your opinion on homosexuality completely fails to follow the example set by Jesus Christ.

      “Maybe the Catholic Church will feed lies to you, you know how they are. So to be gay. I would recommend you forget about everything this World has to teach, become an atheist, and live your life gay, because eventually you will all become extinct.”

      Wow. You tell people to abandon God, and then find fault with Christian GLBTQ people.

      “I do not put this on here to bash any one person or persons.”

      Of course you do.

      “These are my beliefs,”
      So? That doesn’t make them any less abusive and degrading.

      “I know they are not shared by all and I respect everyone’s point of view.”

      No, you do not. If you respected the point of view of GLBTQ people, you would not assert abusive and destructive things about us in public.

      “I do have gay siblings that I love”
      Some love, you think they cannot be Christians, are a threat to children, are mentally ill.

      “and they respect my beliefs, just as I respect theirs.”
      Yes, the probably do respect your beliefs as much as you respect their, but, you do not respect them, so . . .

      “I do not think God hates gays or anything else. I believe that we are all created in his image,”

      Since homosexuality is innate, it is the way we are made, homosexuals, like heterosexuals, are made in God’s image. Perhaps some day you will love God enough to respect the GLBTQ people made in God’s image.

      “but just as Eve disobeyed God in the beginning we still struggle to obey God with what we have created in this World.”

      Eve’s sin was one of pride, she was tempted with the chance to be a God, instead of being a child of God. Your position on homosexuality reflects the very same sin.

      Oct 10, 2010 at 5:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cassandra
      Cassandra

      B.Hill

      The only thing that needs to be said about your last two posts from today, is a quote of your last post yesterday:

      “OK…I am done now…Promise…Now that I have promised you something

      if I do not do it..Then it is a lie…”

      Please repent.

      Oct 10, 2010 at 5:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B. Hill
      B. Hill

      @Cassandra: and the only thing that you did not understand by my comment “I’m Done” was that I was
      “Done” with YOU! I am still DONE with you! You are done with me, too.. Finished…I got it!

      Oct 10, 2010 at 5:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LN
      LN

      Last year I recommended a fragrance company to a friend who happened to be a lesbian. This lesbian woman would not buy the fragrance from this company because the owner was Wiccan. I respected that from her. Please respect Just Cookies decision. I have showed in this response that I met a gay woman who discriminated against a Wiccan company because of the owner’s pagan religion. Give me a break.

      Oct 13, 2010 at 10:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • scott ny'er
      scott ny'er

      @LN: That’s not an equal scenario. It’s totally different.

      Oct 13, 2010 at 11:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chris H
      Chris H

      @LN: I once knew a black lesbian handicapped midget who thought the Earth was flat. Your point?

      In all seriousness, those are entirely different scenarios. One of them is the power of the buyer who does not wish to patronize a certain business because of practices. When done on a mass-scale it’s called a boycott.
      The other is a seller who discriminatorily refuses to sell to a specific group of buyers that are protected from discrimination through public legislation.

      One of these is legal. The other one isn’t. Take your guess which is which, ;)

      Oct 13, 2010 at 11:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • scott ny'er
      scott ny'er

      @Cassandra: Kudos to you for your continued commitment to refute these cult-minded posters. I read your response on how a gay fundie raised teen or others might benefit from your arguments. And I see the merit.

      Personally, it’s too draining for me to do that (plus, I’ll admit, I don’t have the theology background to spar). I’d rather start a web site, post your arguments there in an index like way and promote that blog/ site. But again, you deserve some applause.

      Oct 13, 2010 at 11:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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