“In spite of what seems to be sweeping approval for a progressive agenda, Latino support of Prop. 8 has exposed an entrenched bias against homosexuality at once profound and confounding… Yet even as civil rights in America have come so far, Latinos still suffer keenly under the heel of oppression… The irony of Latino support for Prop. 8 is sad. That a community that continues to struggle for basic rights would deny them to another is particularly baffling. A marginalized minority — Latinos — voting to take away the rights of another marginalized group — gays and lesbians — is like the kid who’s picked on in the third grade and only makes some headway when a punier kid comes along to take the punches instead.” [CNN]
“Baffling.”
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Darth Paul
I fail to see how this is baffling unless you’re retarded. Religious people are pretty much going to vote against gay marriage. Trying to use a civil rights argument against ethnic minorities will *never* fly with them.
tallskin
Why is it baffling? It is as common as the rain here in England. It is a common phenomenon everywhere the western world allows (or doesn’t allow, with illegal immigration) uneducated people from primitive and backward cultures to immigrate. It is happening here in the UK and the rest of europe and it happening in the USA.
liberal
Minority rights are the same irrespective of the minority in question.
Gays have been thrown to the back of the bus again.
Both the black and latino communities should be ashamed. Put segregation on the ballot and watch the uproar.
America, one step forward and two steps back.
msim
My ancestors came from “primitive and backward places” I guess since they were not from the UK, US or Europe.
Since they immigrated to Canada where there was no prohibition for black people to learn to read and write and where Asian Jews could own the home they lived in, they assimilated quite nicely.
Maybe the UK, USA and Europe could be a little more inclusive and in return, their immigrants could feel included and return the favour towards other oppressed groups.
Just saying.
Dave
I’m glad he wrote this. Here’s a young guy who’s challenging the biases in his community and not reactively defending them.
Good for him.
tallskin
msim, do instruct us poor benighted Europeans just how we become, as you say, “inclusive”, cos I am eager to learn.
But some have been here in the UK for decades, and are 2nd or 3rd generation and are the most hystertically anti-gay people I have ever met – I mean muslims and afro-caribbeanites.
Last time I checked we didn’t have apartheid in poor backward Europe but educate all people to read and write equally.
I think your problem is your total unwillingness to accept that certain ethnic groups have intensely homophobic cultures and whether we nasty Europeans are nice to them or not, whether we try and enable immigrants to assimilate or not, they will still be anti-gay.
Over to you.
GranDiva
That, my dear, is more Darwinist than anything else about evolution. Still ironic, but completely understandable from so many other perspectives.
I didn’t learn to be this much of a bitch myself until I realized that there were one or two steps lower than me on the food chain; it’s something that every gay kid learns by the end of junior high. Why else would we be so catty about the way the geeky straight kids dress, right?
Seriously, though, this argument is kind of lapsing into the very broad generalizations that are so problematic and factionalizing in the first place. So 70% of African Americans voted for H8? Do we have to hate on the 30% that voted against it in the same breath?
Evah21
I agree with you GranDiva. This article is generalizing a broad electorate…though, I have to admit, this news isn’t baffling at all considering most Latinos (not all, mind you) are Catholic in religion. That is not to say that they are from an “ass backwards” nation or culture…that is simply offensive to say. Can you blame them for voting for Prop 8 if we say things like that about their culture and heritage? We get offended when they call our lifestyle wrong so what gives us the right to say that theirs is wrong? People live differently, have different views. We can’t be hating on other minorities right now, we can’t afford to hate on anybody, because it will only make those who hate us work that much harder against us. We need to bridge the gap between us and other minorities if we ever hope to overcome an ignorant majority. Offensive comments like TallSkin’s are only going to create more enemies for us as Latinos and African Americans side with other homophobics because we do not give them a reason to respect us and it will make our struggle that much more difficult.
fredo777
I’m somewhere in the middle on this one. I’m gay + black, but I don’t think anyone from either community (or both, like myself) should have to kiss anyone’s ass for acceptance of their culture.
I do think, however, that a little more understanding from both “sides” can go a long, long way.
dommyluc
I am a gay white male who lives in NW Tennessee, and before anyone blames the passage of Prop 8 on the black voters in California, please read the following:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/7/34645/1235/704/656272
This is an old trick used by the RW to tear the gays and minorities apart because that is the LAST thing that the RW wants to see happen: a strong coalition of gays and minorities. And remember: the corporate traditional media are the same ones who tried to keep Barack Obama from being elected! Do not believe everything you hear! Stay informed!!!
Jim
Personally I don’t find this phenom baffling in the least. I work closely with Latinos daily, and have become close friends with a few. Homophobia is a given in their culture (the people I know are first gen Puerto Ricans and Mexicans). The whole “machismo” stereotype/generalization/family structure/mindset is prevalent in the Latino culture here in Cleveland, it’s a given. The people I know aren’t especially religious (as in practicing), but they were raised in Catholic families. However, I think it’s much more of a CULTURAL, rather than religious, thing. They’re not hateful toward gays, and accept me as a gay man without reservation, but the thought of 2 men marrying is just inconceivable to them. Interestingly, I’ve never heard any of them mention knowing gay people within their own community, so closetedness could be a large factor in an unchanging community mindset. Perhaps if gay latinos (again, I’m speaking of the local community) came out within their community of origin, the perceptions and mindsets would begin to change.
Re: Prop 8, I keep reading all the polls and results of who voted against it (the slant seems to be on minorities) and the same thought keeps coming to mind: gay marriage was legalized in May. Equality organizations HAD to have expected this kind of backlash. Was there NO grassroots outreach work to minority communities initiated? I haven’t heard of any. All I hear is the complaint that the minorities “let us down” with their voting. Let’s get real here, this cannot honestly come as a surprise to Californians. It’s been an accepted idea for years, stereotypical tho it may be, that Black and Latino communities and churches aren’t exactly homo-friendly or supportive. Coretta Scott King made pleas on behalf of acceptance of gays a few years ago, that proves the point. Where was the outreach work prior to the election? Were there No on 8 commercials directed at the Black and/or Latin demographic? If not, why not? The whole finger-pointing thing is getting annoying. Maybe I’m biased from working in the advertising industry for years, but come ON, some of the most creative minds in the country are living in CA, specifically LA, common sense dictates that you identify your target groups and craft messages tailored to them if you want to influence or change perceptions.
tallskin
Evah21, you are putting the cart before the horse. Their hatred of us comes first, just like I used to be a nice little anti-racist before I realised just how PASSIONATELY they hate us. Now, I think, “Fuck Them” , after all why should I apologise for my sexuality to them, or make excuses for them being homophobic? And I don’t understand why you are.
And all you apologists for ethnic homophobia are making the common mistake of buying into the bullshit PC ideology that says all cultures are equal. All cultures are patently, self evidently not equal, otherwise why would they be here (in the West) and not stay in their own counties, or why don’t we want to move to their countries and experience their cultures?
Answer, they come from shitty cultures that is why, yet they want to preserve these shitty cultures even though they are living here.
It really is gobsmacking.
And Please, let’s increase the quality of the debate here and not just call people “racists” or whatever because you don’t like what he or she is saying.
Nitesurf
The white so-called “superior” culture is FULL of ignorant, homophobic fools too, in case you’ve forgotten Tallskin. How much hate do you have for THEM?
tallskin
Nitesurf actually a lot. But at least I can argue with them without the threat of violence. And here in the UK, the white indigenous population are not religious, so they don’t quote their evil sky pixie holy texts at me as justification for their bigotry. For without religion their bigotry is exposed, naked, for what it is anti-gay bigotry.
And Nitesurf do you not agree that western culture is superior at least in so far as gay issues are concerned?
I await your answer.
michael
Proposition 8 shattered a lot of illusions and brought to light the reality of many ethnic cultures. Their ignorance and hatred. Of course we know why they are this way, religion plus the fact that
the victim becomes the perpetrator because the victim comes to believe that the perpetrator is the one who has all the power thus choses to become that. Its a sad state of the human condition.
But if rights were not up for a vote in the first place then this really would not matter. Here in Canada there are a lot of new immigrants.Many come from homophobic cultures, but Canada does not put human civil rights up for a vote so any group can hate all the want, but that hate can never manifest itself into changing laws. Proposition 8 showed that Democracy is not always the fine choice people wish to believe it is. It only works as long as the majority are sane, decent people. But Americans, and I am a U.S. citizen, are far from sane people. That is why the world hates Americans, because their ignorance, dependance upon abusive religions, arrogance and ego are mind boggling to most intelligent people. I am not saying that there are not a handful of Americans that are other than that, but there are just a handful. Americans can blame George Bush, The Republicans, whoever they want for the state they are in. But it is the American people who are the problem, and it lies within their hearts. Because that is obviously not changed I don’t see the U.S. coming out of its problems. I believe they will become much worse as Americans are a kin to an alcoholic and must bottom out before they have the humility to see that the problem is them.
tallskin
Michael, ” Proposition 8 showed that Democracy is not always the fine choice people wish to believe it is. ” you are absolutely right. Democracy, uncontrolled, turns into a vile lynch mob where minorities can have their rights taken away by a majority.
From my readings of history many, many philosophers have warned about this, in particular Aristotle over 2,000 years ago.
As far as I am concerned the great majority of unwashed and ill-educated morons should only have the power to elect representatives every few years, and they should NOT have the power to decide the fate of their fellow citizens via referenda like this proposition 8.
But fuck if the West is this bad, then what the hell are the rest of the sorry mess of humanity like??? It doesn’t bear thinking about.
fredo777
Tallskin, I think you are full of shit.
Read the DailyKos link posted earlier before you go off on a rant about how the homophobia of “ethnics” + immigrants caused Prop 8 to pass:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..704/656272
Brian Miller
the world hates Americans, because their ignorance, dependance upon abusive religions, arrogance and ego are mind boggling to most intelligent people. I am not saying that there are not a handful of Americans that are other than that, but there are just a handful
I love it when some earnest Canadian or European liberal delivers a wide-eyed lecture on tolerance, understanding, anti-bigotry, opposing hatred and acceptance of those who are different — and then ends it with a bigoted rant about how 99% of Americans are stupid bigots who the world rightfully hates.
It rather underscores the problem with tolerance that society has, doesn’t it?
It also means the self-designated enlightened ones are far from what they position themselves at.
And no, the fact that you’re a “US citizen” doesn’t validate what you’re saying, any more than my being gay validates the notion that “almsot all gay men are AIDS-infected promiscuous park-cruisers, which is why the vast majority of society hates them.”
tallskin
Fredo777, thanks for your well reasoned argument in response to my comments.
Indeed I did start reading that overlong article but it seemed to me to be trying to prove that purple is red (I would’ve used the more usual “trying to prove black is white’ but under the circumstances thought this might be unfortunate! ) and that blacks are not anti-gay.
All the article proves is that black americans are not that large a proportion of the californian population, and it does NOT prove that black americans and hispanics are anti gay. Nor does it attempt to explain why they are so anti gay.
It also does not attempt to explain the origins of the hate that these ethnic minorities feel for gays.
tallskin
Er actually Brian Miller I don’t hate americans at all.
I find their chauvenism annoying, all that stuff about the good ole USA being the best goddamed country in the world etc blah blah when 40 million of its citizens have no access to healthcare etc etc, and I find American exceptionalism irritating. Especially when it is said with no sense of amused irony at the idiocy of what the speaker is saying.
But hey, I can laugh at americans, can’t I?
fredo777
The point of the article was that the common blame being placed on blacks for Prop 8 passing was misplaced, as not nearly as many blacks actually voted as CNN’s exit polling would have us to believe + that their numbers of those whom actually did vote were skewed.
As for your sarcasm, I didn’t find it necessary to type out a reasoned argument. I don’t waste much time responding in-depth to commentary I think of as largely bullshit. Hence, my brief response to your earlier post.
joe
For the first time, one group is hated worldwide instead of in specific regions: homosexuals. It’s a worldwide oppression which will take many times longer than black civil rights. We have to take the whole species on.
SuperCat
Obama did not support prop 8. Anyone, Latino or otherwise, who voted for Obama and voted “yes” on prop 8 is a hypocrite. And since Obama won that state almost 2-1, there are plenty of them.
Mauricio
Baffled? Tell me about it. I am a gay Latino in a 25 year old relationship with another Latino. My retired father knows about it and loves us (he says so)but still he voted for MaCain and P2 in Florida. I don’t know why after so long he remains a homophobe. Religion? No. Culture? No. He has been living here for most of his adult life. It hurts.
John
@tallskin:
“or why don’t we want to move to their countries and experience their cultures?”
You did silly! God aren’t we all dumb today! And as a Brit..come on fella….
Spell with me…
C O L O N I S A T I O N.
Yeah?
It was when places like spain, eng-er-land and france went around going to ALL these countries full of them blackies and decided to TAKE them over cause they needed…erm, cotton, oil, minerals, spices! (remember the infamous spice trade!) oh and the biggie…PEOPLE!
So erm run that pass me again about not going into THIER countries and taking THIER culture?
John
@Mauricio:
But what have you done to change the attitude? on an organizational level? This is what the whites did..which is why they have less number of homophobia in their country…
Afro American/latinos/Asian gays need to get more organised!
michael
@Brian Miller: I lived in America the first 40 years of my life and have only relocated in the last 3 years to a better place. I am well versed in the ignorance
of America. There is a reason that no American city makes the top
of the most livable cities in the world list. You are a good example of the American ego as so described in films like Zeitgeist. What California, one of the most liberal states in the U.S. did shows what the U.S. is made of, and its quite ugly.
Mauricio
I have done plenty.
People, listen, I don’t want to retire in Canada but unless Obama comes up with something soon I will start planning to do so. Bye, bye Florida, Arizona or Ca. Enough of this crap.
@John: Baffled? Tell me about it. I am a gay Latino in a 25 year old relationship with another Latino. My retired father knows about it and loves us (he says so)but still he voted for MaCain and P2 in Florida. I don’t know why after so long he remains a homophobe. Religion? No. Culture? No. He has been living here for most of his adult life. It hurts.
alan brickman
so lets out latino hypocrites?…it’s so easy..
alan brickman
out all the latina closet cases…
alan brickman
gays have always been hated everywhere..and you just realize that now?…
ricardo
This fails to acknowledge the dominance of catholicism in latin america, and everyone knows that people who believe in religion are the same all across the board when it comes to these type of issues.
Charles J. Mueller
@Mauricio: I too am in a close to six-year relationship with my Filipino hubby who, like some 32,000 other multi-national, same-sex relationships, cannot come to this country and file for citizenship because we are not allowed by law to marry.
My sister-in-law and her live-in b/f know about our relationship and love us (they say so) but still, they voted for McCain and piss-pot Palin. Like you, I don’t know what their reasons were either.
And you are on spot. It DOES hurt!
kravitz
Let’s see… blacks and latinos have faced discrimination in the gay community for decades. And white gays are acting like nothing of the sort ever occurred. And white gays seem to forget other cultures don’t like gay people because we upset the reproduction / social survival chain. Yet it’s a baffling surprise to find out not every culture sees a given issue the same way. Kinda selfish, doncha think?
tallskin
Kravitz, maybe the “discrimination” comes first from growing up and it being the black and latino yoofs at school who were the worst homophobes.
So, you are putting the cart before the horse.
and what the fuck do you mean by – “And white gays seem to forget other cultures don’t like gay people because we upset the reproduction / social survival chain.”?????
This is just pure unadulatered vile homophobia, so why don;t you fuck off you anti gay shithead.
tommy
their bigots along with the black community! I have a good memory,,,,,,,,
glennmcgahee
Having Daily Kos talk about the corporate media being against Obama is ironic. It is Kos that wants to be corporate. They can say anything they want, but after this last election cycle, they are anything but progressive. I’ve never experienced true progressives demonstrate such hatred of women like they’ve demonstrated. If anybody thinks they are otherwise, I’ve got alot of saved quotes from them referring to cunts to share with you.
chuck
Kravitz said >Let’s see… blacks and latinos have faced discrimination in the gay community for decades.
Question for you, Kravitz? Do you jerk your head off? With the left hand, the right hand or does it require the use of both hands?
Homosexuals have faced discrimination, persecution, imprisonment, been murdered and used as human guinea pigs for illegal medical experiments for thousands of years, not just a few decades. Armed with that knowledge, how can you minimalize the suffering of the gay community as you have just seen fit to do?
Gay or str8, your ‘sniffling’ attitude toward the persecution of gays sucks.
And, so do YOU!
Mauricio
Not so long ago somebody here and somewhere in LOGO criticized events/parades/activities around or about Gay Pride. A mistake I said. Explanations about “Constructs” and so forth were given. All the theories, “no need”, and the middle class “over it”, included. (I hope your learned a lesson Nov. 4, you fool.) Today I am a Gay American with Spanish roots. It took me a decade to get there (and the voyage was worth it for sure). But why was it so hard? Because, I had to experience true liberty among thousands of other Gays first in order to begin the journey. Yes, a Pride weekend in the Village did it. I wasn’t alone or needed to hide my true self anymore. I saw diversity. People, Homo you are born before you understand national identity but Gay you learn after. Thank you America but now I ask: Mr. President Elect, what are you going to do? I voted, your turn…
M.
Who here amongst you where willing to do the work and get the message out in areas that you thought might vote YES? Prop. 8 failed because those doing the organizing didn’t effectively get the message out to communities that thought might vote YES. You can’t just sit in WeHo and have a few celebs endorse your cause and think it’s all going to come out the way you wanted it to. Until you can sit at the table with your opponent and let them hear your side of the story you will never win.
The blame game on Prop. 8 shows even more they the white LGBT community was unorganized. And now with this blame of black and latino voters it shows even more they they where not ready to win the battle. They only person they have to blame is themselves and because they refuse to look at their short comings and their mistakes they will never win. These postings and blogs have officially driven a wedge. One that will take many years to heal. I will not support hate on any level. I will not support hate from the white LGBT community and until they can look at themselves in the mirror and realize why they really lost Prop. 8, I will not support any of their efforts or organizations.
Camilo
With the exception of the person who wrote the post referencing The Daily Kos, you are all missing the point by choosing to make this about race.
Hillary Rosen stated on Anderson Cooper 360 Thursday night that making this a racial issue was probably not the best thing because if you look at the stats, 87% of registered REPUBLICANS in the State of California who voted in the 11/4 election, voted for the passage of Prop 8. REPUBLICANS, not blacks, not Latinos, are the problem here.
Furthermore, it was not blacks and Latinos who put Prop 8 on the ballot, it was Mormons, the likes of Tony Perkins and the American Family Association as well as James Dobson and his Focus on the Family kind of organizations that fought to get this on the ballot.
You can’t blame people for being ignorant.
You CAN blame people for being willfully malicious toward our civil rights by running around collecting the signatures to get this on the ballot, and paying the attorneys to draw this all up. Do you think blacks and mexicans did that? No.
Fight the real enemy, THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT WING who would love to see gays and minorities battling each other.
Pick your battles wisely.
lyssa
Yes. So many here sound angry like transpeople were when the fags shat all over transfolk.
The sad part is, gays only give a damn when they get hurt, and they lash out like little racists, transphobes etc.
Gays do not deserve special rights or license to be racist transphobes. Sorry.
-Pissed off and proud Latina trans woman and lesbian.