After this health care reform nightmare, the president is next expected to overhaul the nation’s immigration system. And it’s there that Obama and lawmakers will work to grant undocumented immigrants some of the very rights and privileges that gay American citizens do not enjoy.
It’s impossible to know the details of what will come out of 2010’s immigration reform stab. But you can certainly expect things like healthcare and taxation to be included in whatever “status” lawmakers come up with for those living in the U.S. illegally. Homeland Security Sec. Janet Napolitano, who is Obama’s go-to on immigration reform, isn’t saying much about the White House’s plans — only that they want to make it easier for law enforcement to crack down on employers fishing for illegal workers, and provide some sort of amnesty (or chance to “get right with the law”) to undocumented immigrants who arrived in the U.S. before a certain date.
There are a lot of ifs and buts in there — and both Democrats and Republicans will have their own agendas in the debate. But what’s unarguable here is that the White House and our sometimes BFFs, the Democrats, are putting the priorities of foreigners living in the U.S. illegally ahead of an entire class of Americans.
When it comes to moving on ENDA, DADT, and DOMA, the White House and legislators always have a “too busy” excuse, which is always explained with “healthcare reform” and, soon, “immigration reform.” This is not to say either effort is unworthy; in fact, we support major overhauls of both systems. But it’s curious to see the president working so hard to establish rights for men and women who violated existing immigration law — and who could very well end up with shared healthcare benefits, hospital visitation rights, inheritance provisions, and burial decisions — while gay Americans, born and raised within the United States’s borders, receive nothing.
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Imagine the real possibility that immigration reform could result in a law that would prohibit employers from firing an employee (who arrived in the U.S. before the cut-off date) based on his documentation status — while employers remain free to fire LGBT employees, just ’cause.
This isn’t an effort to fearmonger about “those scary immigrants.” Far from it, we welcome foreigners to this land, and grow increasingly tired of immigration opponents who hide behind “protecting jobs” to mask their blatant racism. Nor are we saying immigration rights should be pushed aside, or delayed, until gays get their protections. But the White House’s agenda shows the priorities of Washington again neglect safeguarding America’s own citizens who happen to be gay.
More curious is that immigration reform — mostly talked about as a way to manage job creation and elimination — will affect an estimated 12 million undocumented immigrants. But if just five percent of America’s population (around 304 million people) is gay, that’s 15.2 million homos living here. And surely they deserve some of these same protections. BECAUSE THEY ARE CITIZENS.
Napolitano, hoping to drum up support, believes “Congress shouldn’t worry about the possible political consequences of tackling hard issues” like immigration reform, reports the Arizona Republic, because, she says, “the big items on the agenda that need to be done for the long-term future of the country.” The White House has yet to issue the same guidance for lawmakers wishing to support LGBT rights. Nor has the White House included LGBT rights as necessary for “the long-term future of the country.”
LoveMoby
Lets also remember that the immigration bill WILL help a lot of gay and lesbian americans in binational relationships. Please do not blame immigrants for the lack of backbone by the Democrats and the President.
Brian
Undocumented immigrants don’t complain, protest, or March on Washington (screaming at the President). They came here, they work hard and they have asked for help – without angry demands.
Same Crap
Immigration reform should have happened in 2007. GWB did many, many things wrong, but his ill-fated immigration reform proposal was spot on. It merged stricter border enforcement, with employee sanctions, and most importantly a pathway to citizenship, which critics derided as ‘amnesty.” Obama should xerox copy Bush’s reform and use that as the basis for his immigration reform.
I don’t think pitting groups against one another is very helpful. Many of these 12 million undocumented immigrants (upwards 15 to 20 million in some estimates) live on the absolute margins of society. Deporting them en masse is not even remotely feasible. There has to be a way they are brought in from the margins, and the pathway to citizenship is the way to do it.
David Ehrenstein
When we stop giving them money they will pay attention.
Cam
No. 2 · Brian
Undocumented immigrants don’t complain, protest, or March on Washington (screaming at the President). They came here, they work hard and they have asked for help – without angry demands.
___________________________
Brian, are you kidding me? The reason that immigration was an issue in the last two election cycles was because of a gigantic series of nationwide marches. Here is a story on one..
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/25/AR2006032501352.html
As for Screaming at the President, I still find it interesting that some people think so little of their own humanity that they would berate people, who do not have full civil rights, for voicing complaints to the people who, when asking for their money, said that they would give them rights.
Same Crap
Oops! Can’t edit, but my previous post should have read “employer sanctions,” not employee.
Transracial
This is such a reckless and irresponsible posting, Queerty.
So, so low!
InExile
#1 Lets not assume gays will be included in (CIR) comprehensive immigration reform, they have not committed to that just yet. I hope gays are included and not bargained away as a bargaining chip. “Living exiled in France for 3 and a half years” waiting for this reform to pass and hoping we don’t get thrown under the bus.
“Some” in the Latino community feel gays might derail this legislation so for gays to be included may be a battle. As usual us gays are at the bottom of the list.
Chitown Kev
Wow. Way too work the Queen Crab in the barrel, Queerty.
Lady Ga-Gasp
We have a huge illegal immigration issue because we have a huge, attractive country. We have no viable filter for how we handle illegals, and as a result many towns and cities are being overrun by international drug cartel members whose purpose is not to do us any favors. Meanwhile the large percentage who are sincere are none the less having children here because by doing so the children are automatically citizens (something that never made a lot of sense to me) and those children are becoming huge burdens on our hospitals and public schools.
Its a mess, and also an opportunity for politicians and businesses who like having large pools of marginalized people to play populist politics and low-income jobs games with.
Is it wrong that a gay person can’t marry another person of the same sex and process them into our country? Hell yes, that’s wrong.
Is it equally wrong to tie that narrow issue into the much larger debate around how we handle a massive social problem that has nothing to do with gay/straight?
Yup.
JP
I agree with #7 – reckless and irresponsible.
As #1 said and #8 corrected, there is a possibility the new immigration reform will help binational couples.
And to say that 15.2 million homos are being affected by the government’s lack of action isn’t true. Many don’t care, many are not, and many are not even that sure they are homos in the first place.
There is also the fact that we gays don’t have a big department in the White House as the DHS. Important agendas are big agendas Queerty, so unless we have a more prominent group of people marching and making noise about an issue like the illegal immigrants and their allies did and still do, we won’t see anything happen as fast as we’d like to.
Incognito
Guess whose rights these immigrants will be voting to take away. I am all for them to be allowed to stay, but I am also realistic as to which way they’ll be voting.
Cam
No. 11 · JP
I agree with #7 – reckless and irresponsible.
As #1 said and #8 corrected, there is a possibility the new immigration reform will help binational couples.
And to say that 15.2 million homos are being affected by the government’s lack of action isn’t true. Many don’t care, many are not, and many are not even that sure they are homos in the first place.
There is also the fact that we gays don’t have a big department in the White House as the DHS. Important agendas are big agendas Queerty, so unless we have a more prominent group of people marching and making noise about an issue like the illegal immigrants and their allies did and still do, we won’t see anything happen as fast as we’d like to.
_______________________________
Ok, so Brian is saying that the immigrants are getting this help because they stay quiet and don’t make any noise, and J.P. is saying that they are getting help because they are marching and making noise….
The problem here is that we are getting a bunch of knee jerk reactions. People here are too quick to attack, by demanding action now, nobody is saying “Hey, don’t do anything else” The point is that saying “We’re too busy to do anything” is B.S. when you have time to take on gigantic issues such as Immigration, as well as a host of smaller issues. Queerty isn’t saying “Boo Immigrants, they are bad” the post said that Queerty actually supports comprehensive immigration reform. What they ARE saying is that the govt. has constantly used the excuse that they are too busy to do anything about gay rights, yet now are beginning a long drawn out process aimed at a group that are not currently citizens of the country, where gay U.S. citizens, who donated, funded and are citizens are still being held at arms length.
To those of you that say this immigration reform will help bi-national gay couples. No, it won’t. DOMA prevents any federal marriage benefits from attaching to gay couples, therefore you will not be able to keep a partner here in the U.S. as long as DOMA still exists.
Paul
Queerty. Free of an Agenda. Except that nasty, vicious one.
Charles Merrill
We need them for the new lift and grunt infrastructure jobs provided by the government bailout. Repairing bridges, mixing concrete, replacing sewage lines. I just don’t see gay geeks doing that kind of work. We just have to make sure they don’t send their money back to Mexico improving Mexico’s economy, not ours.
Amie
Wow, Queerty, really? The rights of other marginalized communities can only be measured against, and come at the cost of, our own? Classy.
I’m writing from Oregon, where our immigrant rights coalition–the largest immigrant rights group in the state–is a serious, long-time supporter of LGBT rights, including marriage equality. They’ve been staunch supporters for years, and have stuck their necks out for us many times. And now you want to pit US-born LGBT people against LGBT & straight immigrants? It’s upsetting, it’s insulting, and it’s hurting our work.
InExile
#13 Cam
You are not correct about your assumption regarding DOMA. The fact is Immigrationequailty.org is trying to incorporate the language of (UAFA) Uniting American Families Act into this legislation. The UAFA has nothing to do with marriage equality, it would allow same sex couples to prove they are in a long term committed relationship in the same way straight couples must prove their relationships for immigration. The language in the law has no mention of marriage or civil unions. The issue is explained fully at immigrationequality.org.
The GOP will of coarse fight this legislation claiming it could lead to same sex marriage.
Renee
wow. I didn’t know that civil rights was a zero sum game. Apparently if the White House pursues a more progressive immigration policy it is undermining gay and lesbian Americans? I think whoever wrote this should be ashamed of themselves. I would argue that the more we work to extend civil protections and services to any community the easier it is to continue to expand those rights. This rhetoric is dangerous and damaging. This is how you undermine ally relationships and make it difficult for communities with overlapping interests to work together. Instead of feeling threatened by immigration reform why wouldn’t you join hands with other disenfranchised people and work together to make progress? Well done Queerty, well done.
Keith Kimmel
Oh Queerty, I am so proud of you for having the gall to take on this issue! I have often wondered how criminals (opps, I mean “undocumented workers”, hahahaha) who have no legal right to be here somehow got in front of those of us who were born here or legally came here, have every right to be here and are still treated worse than a holiday package sent fourth class mail just because we make love with people of the same sex.
KT
So, in short, there are no queer undocumented immigrants, it’s terrible that “those people” get rights while us good, law abiding, documented American citizens are denied rights, and politics is a zero sum game. Way to go, Queerty. This is what people mean when they talk about the racist gay elite hijacking the struggle for LGBT rights.
Same Crap
Keith, undocumented immigrants aren’t criminals. Contrary to popular belief, immigration law is civil law, not criminal law, so the violation of immigration law is not a crime.
Keith Kimmel
You know, its sad that most of you are too goddamned wrapped up in liberal politics and utopian ideals to see the forest from the trees. You know, its OK to support one Democratic position without swallowing all thier dogma hook, line and sinker. And the idea that we should give every illegal immigrant who broke the law a free pass is one of those positions that should be opposed because its stupid and its unworkable.
This illegal immigration issue is a real simple one. Either come here legally or don’t come at all. That goes for gays, straights and everybody else. The immigration system is too difficult to navigate and can be unjust at times? Fine. Point taken. So work to reform it, fix it, make it better. You don’t just throw the baby out with the bath water and say aww to hell with the whole damn thing and give everyone a free pass.
And illegal immigrants sure as hell should NOT have the right to vote. Unfortantely, the Democrats seem to view illegal immigrants as a new consituent group and even focus GOTV (Get Out the Vote) campiagns targeted specifically at them. They are undermining our Democracy and ruining our country in doing so. Because when one group takes for itself the right to fix elections with inelligeable votes, the process is lost.
The fact that some of you seem willing to do this because it would help a few queers in relationships is even more disturbing. When you put those thoughts into action, it gives the right wing mountains of ammunition to use against us. They can claim we are looking for special rights. And I’ll be direct. There are a good many homos who don’t want to be equal, they want special rights and the right wing is correct when they make that charge against us.
Keith Kimmel
No. 21 · Same Crap
Keith, undocumented immigrants aren’t criminals. Contrary to popular belief, immigration law is civil law, not criminal law, so the violation of immigration law is not a crime.
—
Fine, you want to argue a technical legal point. I wasnt using the word crime/criminals in the legal sense, I was using it in the moral sense. Its a crime against the country, a crime against public order and its a crime against every law abiding citizen that pays thier (ever increasing, ever growing) fucking taxes to support these parasites and a whole system to deal (or not to deal, as the cause usually is) with them. And yes, they are parasites.
Same Crap
“And illegal immigrants sure as hell should NOT have the right to vote.”
Strawman. Who is even advocating this?
JP
Most people have shown good points regarding this article.
I agree with #14, 16, 17, 18, 21 and SPECIALLY 20. It is good to read GOOD and FACTUAL arguments instead of blah blah blah.
Let’s help immigrants and specially the government to achieve their goals in a speedy manner(and be explicit about it) so they (immigrants) may return the favor in the future.
Cindy Rizzo
Queerty, you’re usually so good on race issues, I was shocked to see this awful posting pitting one marginalized group against another and bashing the undocumented in the process. Why isn’t everyone entitled to better treatment? This post was a major disappointment and a regrettable show of ignorance. Go learn more about immigrant rights before you post again on the subject.
Cam
No. 17 · InExile
#13 Cam
You are not correct about your assumption regarding DOMA. The fact is Immigrationequailty.org is trying to incorporate the language of (UAFA) Uniting American Families Act into this legislation. The UAFA has nothing to do with marriage equality, it would allow same sex couples to prove they are in a long term committed relationship in the same way straight couples must prove their relationships for immigration. The language in the law has no mention of marriage or civil unions. The issue is explained fully at immigrationequality.org.
_____________________
Hi InExile, I’m glad to read this, but unfortunatly, DOMA absolutly prohibits Federal rights being given to gay couples. Congress would have to write into the law that the new law supercedes those areas of DOMA, or a court would have to say that one law supercedes the other. Again, I’m glad they are working on it, but I haven’t seen a huge willingness in Congress to take on this issue. I really really hope that this organization can get the language in to any immigration legislation, but so far my faith in this Congress to do ANYTHING other than give out free money to the banks is very low.
AlwaysGay
If Obama pushes this illegal immigration plan through he will NOT have a second term, mark my words. Many people are unhappy with him already but this will alienate black voters who have continued to support him in record numbers (91%). Illegal aliens push out Americans from lower income work which many are black.
Immigrants are about 83% likely to vote against our gay rights. How high do you think illegal immigrants would go in taking away your rights? It will definitely delay gay couples from getting their marriage rights in California past 2012. There is no way I would support bringing in people who want to take my rights away.
InExile
#27 Yes, I know what you mean. I have some hope but very little.
Tom
Way to throw immigrant communities under the bus. What’s worse is that this point can be made without negating the rights of any other community. I can think of few frames that are as counterproductive and divisive.
YellowRanger
You’ll have to forgive me if I don’t salivate over this legislation. Not only will most of these people vote to take away gay rights when they go up for an inevitable vote, but they broke the law. They could have chosen to come in the legal way, just like my parents did when they came over here from Korea. But they didn’t. And now they’ll be rewarded for it with all kinds of rights and benefits that legal citizens(immigrant or otherwise) who happen to be gay still don’t have. So once again gays are shoved right down there with women at the bottom of the Democratic party’s proverbial barrel of bullshit. What a shock. I think I might just have a heart attack and die from this surprise.
Oh, and anyone who thinks that a final immigration bill will include language that makes life easier for gays with foreign partners is living in a fantasy land. The Democrats will gleefully throw us under the bus in the spirit of meaningless bi-partisanship, exactly like they did to women in the healthcare debate.
Brian NJ
The point Queerty is making is about priorities. The Obama administration always argues it is too busy to repeal DADT and DOMA. But gays should be ahead of the line in the Obama Administration agenda, because we are already citizens, and some have put their lives on the line; we should not in the back of the line for Obama. Illegal immigrants may or may not need legislation, but to get civil rights legislation before gay veterans? No way! Veterans put their lives on the line for America, and they have to be given priority in the legislative agenda. And gays should have DOMA repealed FIRST. This is not pitting minorities against each other, it is about who is served first by their government.
KT
@Keith: what makes you think that somehow people don’t need things like healthcare, the ability to make a living, and basic human respect because they broke a law? There’s no such thing as a “criminal” that you can make the other and treat like shit (yes, even the ones we throw in prison). Every one of us is still a human being, no matter what laws we may have broken. In the case of immigration this is even more true, because the “crime” committed by undocumented immigrants is that they crossed an imaginary line without being granted permission by the state. Denying rights to undocumented workers does nothing but create an easy to exploit underclass, not given legal protection, kept in constant poverty, and denied a political voice. We have no right to say anyone is somehow less a person and less deserving of opportunity because they or their parents aren’t citizens.
Brian NJ
The immigration issue is not the point of this posting. The point is that is is wrong for Obama to promise civil rights action to illegal immigrants, and making promises that it will get dealt with next on the agenda, and leaving US swinging in the wind again.
Same Crap
“Fine, you want to argue a technical legal point. I wasnt using the word crime/criminals in the legal sense, I was using it in the moral sense. Its a crime against the country, a crime against public order and its a crime against every law abiding citizen that pays thier (ever increasing, ever growing) fucking taxes to support these parasites and a whole system to deal (or not to deal, as the cause usually is) with them. And yes, they are parasites.”
Keith, please. Let’s not go there.
To many religious conservatives, gay people are violating the laws of god and nature, so we are criminals in that figurative and moral sense, if not the legal one.
If we label people criminals, let’s make sure what they are doing is actually a “crime” as defined by our duly enacted laws.
Chitown Kev
It is rather difficult to argue against the point that many of the immigrants (legal and illegal) that want to come to this country (or are already here) are very anti-gay rights. And that is a legitimate fear by the community which no true progressive seems to know how to address.
Chitown Kev
I mean by our community.
Chitown Kev
@Renee
I get what you are saying and I agree to a certain extent.
But…if certain agents in this country believe that there’s nothing wrong with exporting homophobia, why wouldn’t they want to import homophobia as well.
It’s not simply the responsibility of the GLBT community to be embracing and open. And both parties seem to act as if homophobia is an acceptable prejudice.
It’s also the responsibility of the political parties (and primarily the Democrats) that they also must share in the education work to be done (and the Democrats have failed at that).
Keith Kimmel
No. 33 · KT
“@Keith: what makes you think that somehow people don’t need things like healthcare, the ability to make a living, and basic human respect because they broke a law? There’s no such thing as a “criminal” that you can make the other and treat like shit (yes, even the ones we throw in prison). Every one of us is still a human being, no matter what laws we may have broken. In the case of immigration this is even more true, because the “crime” committed by undocumented immigrants is that they crossed an imaginary line without being granted permission by the state. Denying rights to undocumented workers does nothing but create an easy to exploit underclass, not given legal protection, kept in constant poverty, and denied a political voice. We have no right to say anyone is somehow less a person and less deserving of opportunity because they or their parents aren’t citizens.”
Yes, we do have a right to say. This is a country of laws. We have a process for people who want to get in, just like we have a process for everything else. Not everyone can live here, we only have a finite amount of resources and space.
Illegal immigrants don’t respect the process for getting in. If you want to reform that process and make it better once you are [legally] here, I am all for that. Thats the American way.
But a number of them (and almost all of the folks this applies to are illegals) don’t come here to make a better life for themselves. They come here to rape our social services, take our jobs, work for cash while collecting from the handout programs, export our currency to Mexico and generally be a burden on society. They bring thier gangs and other problems with them, then they want us to print everything in Spanish because they are too goddamned ignorant or lazy to learn English. Not on my watch.
Illegal immigrants are cheaters. They cheat at the immigration game. They are lazy. They screwed thier own countries up, now they want to come and take ours down as well. Not on my watch. Cheaters should not win. They should not be rewarded. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
Everyone has basic human rights. We all agree on that. And yes, even criminals and even illegals have the right to be treated fairly. Being treated fairly does not include being allowed to continue criminal/illegal/unlawful behavior and ruin society for the rest of us. If you don’t like the law, change it. But until its changed, you’re obligated to follow it as long as you are here.
I am fully cognizant of the fact that many of the countries where these people come from (Mexico) are cesspools rampant with corruption, crime and poverty. This country was a cesspool once, too (and I’d argue we’re returning to cesspool status like its nobodys business). We put in the work and we cleaned it up. We dumped the british tea in the harbor and told the king to go fuck himself. The soultion is NOT for those people to flee thier country and invade ours and defile it in the process, they need to put in thier own work in thier own countries and clean them up just like we did. Thier countries are the way they are because they allow them to be that way by inaction, apathy and ignorance.
We should help them when possible, but we should not do it for them. And we should not, under any circumstances, undertake an immigration policy that amounts to “Its OK that you douched up your country and are too fucking lazy to clean it up, come over here and piss in our melting pot so that it sucks as much as where you came from.” Thats what the latest approach to immigration stands for.
Don’t give me the “Oh, these countries are ruled by dictators and people are oppressed” line of crap, either. This country was rulled by a dictator at one point too. If you don’t like the leadership in your country, elect somebody else. Dont have fair elections or the government wont honor them? Guess what? Its time to water the tree of freedom with some blood. If everyone in Mexico was to take up so much as a butter knife against the government, it would fall in a day because for every government bureaucrat, there are 1000 butter knife holders. If 1,000 people stab you with butterknifes, you will die. Same goes for government. This hasnt happened because a majority dont think its that bad yet. So as far as I am concerned, since its not that bad, they can stay in Mexico or wherever and wait for the right to legally enter the United States.
Immigration policy is the at least 70% of the reason I will not fully identify with the Democratic party. I may support individual canidates and I am even working on Democratic campaigns, but I reject the party overall. For supposedly being the more enlightened party, Democrats sure can be awfully stupid on certain issues.
You know, illegal immigrants have something in common with some queers. Some queers like to hide in the closet and want everyone else to fight for thier rights and take all the risks, then they swoop in and enjoy all of the fruits of everyone else’s hard work. Illegals just want everyone else to do everything for them. Its the ultimate in lazyness.
No. 35 · Same Crap
“Fine, you want to argue a technical legal point. I wasnt using the word crime/criminals in the legal sense, I was using it in the moral sense. Its a crime against the country, a crime against public order and its a crime against every law abiding citizen that pays thier (ever increasing, ever growing) fucking taxes to support these parasites and a whole system to deal (or not to deal, as the cause usually is) with them. And yes, they are parasites.”
Keith, please. Let’s not go there.
To many religious conservatives, gay people are violating the laws of god and nature, so we are criminals in that figurative and moral sense, if not the legal one.
If we label people criminals, let’s make sure what they are doing is actually a “crime” as defined by our duly enacted laws.”
No, lets go there. I WANT to go there. The difference is the fucking bible is not statute – at least not yet – but our immigration laws are staute today. The deserve to be upheld. They were created for a purpose. See the arguements I made above.
—-
No. 36 · Chitown Kev
“It is rather difficult to argue against the point that many of the immigrants (legal and illegal) that want to come to this country (or are already here) are very anti-gay rights. And that is a legitimate fear by the community which no true progressive seems to know how to address.”
They just dont want to address it because it conflicts with thier assinie theory that everyone who wants in should be allowed in without any vetting, so they ignore it. I don’t even get to the point in the arguement that its a concern for me, my arguement is they have no right to be here to begin with, so whether they are pro or anti homo is irrelevent.
KT
36: I think at least we could agree that making a “queers vs. immigrants” (or more accurately, “queers vs. hispanics”) fight isn’t going to help either of our causes, and is only going to further marginalize immigrant queer folk.
FakeName
Cam sez: “DOMA absolutly prohibits Federal rights being given to gay couples.”
No it doesn’t, otherwise Obama would not have been able to extend those few benefits that he did to federal workers’ partners. DOMA allows individual political sub-divisions within the United States to refuse to recognize same-sex marriages performed in jurisdictions that recognize them and creates legal definitions of “marriage” and “spouse” for purposes of federal law. A new piece of federal legislation that creates some benefit for same-sex partners regardless of the legal status of the relationship does not run afoul of DOMA.
Link to the text of DOMA: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=104_cong_public_laws&docid=f:publ199.104
InExile
FYI, there is no way to immigrate to the US unless you pay 1 million dollars, are a doctor, or have relatives here. My same sex partner has been playing the visa lottery for 15 years and never won. Gays are screwed while straights just need to be engaged to get a visa.
The immigration reform is to gain more votes for democrats, they need the Latino voting block. If gays get slipped in, it would be great but I’m not holding my breath.
Keith Kimmel
Damn but this site is killing productivity today. OK, I need to go get something accomplished today. I’ll be back around 10 PM and we can debate this further.
Keith Kimmel
No. 42 · InExile
“FYI, there is no way to immigrate to the US unless you pay 1 million dollars, are a doctor, or have relatives here.”
And that, sir, is absoulte bullshit.
Same Crap
Immigration is one of those issues that does not fit neatly into the left/right, Democrat/Republican dichotomy.
In 1986, Ronald Reagan signed the largest amnesty bill in the history of the US, legalizing millions of undocumented immigrants. The Chamber of Commerce type Republicans love illegal immigration because of the cheap labor and the undercutting of wages. Labor unions, traditionally, left wing don’t like it for that very reason. Moreover, the populist right doesn’t like brown people coming over and making the country less, uh, monochromatic.
There are progressive gays, as seen from the responses, who are wary about what many and presumably socially conservative voters would mean for gay rights.
ChrisNYC
America is Becoming The Armpit of the world. Logic doesn’t exist. Hate is key to victory , god Blessed Sarah Palin With a retarded baby to wear as a political button….
Same Crap
“And that, sir, is absoulte bullshit.”
It’s imprecise statement, but it’s generally not untrue.
For immigrants visas (read: green card), there are certain preference categories, which include, among a few others, highly skilled and highly educated individuals and family reunification visas.
There are several non-permanent and temporary categories (tourist, H1B, guest worker, etc.), but in order to get an immigrant visa, US immigration policy is highly selective. It is very difficult and time-consuming to legally immigrate to the US.
Jack
wow wow slow down there. I am an immigrant and fully support gay rights, please don’t start creating friction where there is none. If you are frustrated pick on the mornon church on the conservatives.
KT
@39: “Yes, we do have a right to say. This is a country of laws.”
No, it’s not. It’s a place, and a place that has people in it. No law can make it right to disenfranchise and exploit people, no law can make inequality okay, and no person can ever be an “illegal.”
“Not everyone can live here, we only have a finite amount of resources and space.”
Oh bull shit. We have plenty of room and plenty of resources for everybody. Obviously in a literal sense there is a finite amount of room and resources, but people go without because those resources are distributed incredibly unequally and the rich won’t give them up.
“If you want to reform that process and make it better once you are [legally] here, I am all for that. Thats the American way.”
How is the current drive for immigration reform, via granting rights to undocumented workers, not that?
“They come here to rape our social services, take our jobs, work for cash while collecting from the handout programs, export our currency to Mexico and generally be a burden on society. They bring thier gangs and other problems with them, then they want us to print everything in Spanish because they are too goddamned ignorant or lazy to learn English. Not on my watch.
Illegal immigrants are cheaters. They cheat at the immigration game. They are lazy. They screwed thier own countries up, now they want to come and take ours down as well. Not on my watch. Cheaters should not win. They should not be rewarded. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.”
Your whole argument is parroting racist stereotypes about hispanic people and replacing “illegal” with “sp*c.” Painting a huge group as a bunch of lazy, cheating, gang member drains on society is incredibly racist and completely unacceptable.
“Dont have fair elections or the government wont honor them? Guess what? Its time to water the tree of freedom with some blood.”
Asking people to risk their lives (as if they don’t risk their lives crossing the border anyways) is a hell of a thing to ask somebody. Somehow I doubt you would expect the same sort of sacrifice of yourself. Frankly, I don’t think you would want the third world to rise up against the folks that oppress them, because that would involve rising up against you and everybody like you. They’re oppressed by “free trade” agreements allowing corporations to choke out local business, by a government (ours) that sends in a fucking military coup every time their politicians threaten to stop oppressing their lower classes and supporting U.S. business interests, and by classist, exploitative system that is capitalism. We are the ones that ruined their nations, and then we deny them basic rights once they enter here the only way they have the resources to do so.
Cam
No. 41 · FakeName
Cam sez: “DOMA absolutly prohibits Federal rights being given to gay couples.”
No it doesn’t, otherwise Obama would not have been able to extend those few benefits that he did to federal workers’ partners. DOMA allows individual political sub-divisions within the United States to refuse to recognize same-sex marriages performed in jurisdictions that recognize them and creates legal definitions of “marriage” and “spouse” for purposes of federal law. A new piece of federal legislation that creates some benefit for same-sex partners regardless of the legal status of the relationship does not run afoul of DOMA.
_____________________________
Obama was able to give those benefits to same sex domestic partners because they also offer those benefits to hetrosexual domestic partners. However, currently Hetrosexuals MUST be married to begin the process of naturalizing them into the country. Since that is a federal issue, and currently gays are not allowed a federally recognized marriage, gays will not be allowed to keep a spouse from being deported unless the new law is written to supercede DOMA which I don’t think Congress is prepared to do.
InExile
No. 44 · Keith Kimmel
Do you homework please:
Immigrationequality.org (read about the issue)
How exactly do you immigrate? There is no application, it’s not McDonalds.
FakeName
Cam, I really don’t think you understand how the law works. If a new law comes into effect that sets up a process by which same-sex partners in committed relationships can obtain legal residence for the non-American partner, DOMA doesn’t prevent it and DOMA doesn’t have to be repealed to allow it.
DOMA does not say “No law shall be passed to extend any benefit to same-sex couples”. It defines the word “marriage” and the word “spouse” for federal legislation. Congress could pass a law tomorrow to extend every one of the 1,400 federal marriage rights to same-sex couples and DOMA wouldn’t stop it. Federal marriage rights are not barred to same-sex couples because they are same-sex couples. They are barred to same-sex couples because they are conveyed through the legal status of marriage and how DOMA defines the word “marriage”.
And my point still stands: if DOMA bars any and all federal recognition of same-sex couples, Obama could not have extended the benefits to them regardless of whether he extended them to unmarried mixed-sex couples or not.
Ian
NEWSFLASH lots of LGBTers in this country are undocumented because of the unfair immigration system that we have in place.
Immigration Reform would help our community as well, so stop being xenophobic.
Please take the time to educate yourselves by visiting this site:
http://www.immigrationequality.org/
its about gays and immigration.
Cam
No. 52 · FakeName
Cam, I really don’t think you understand how the law works. If a new law comes into effect that sets up a process by which same-sex partners in committed relationships can obtain legal residence for the non-American partner, DOMA doesn’t prevent it and DOMA doesn’t have to be repealed to allow it.
_______________________________________________
Fakename, the problem is, that any law that would allow gay immigrants any of the benefits of marriage, i.e. being able to keep a foreign spouse here won’t pass the Congress, they won’t let regulations change, nor pass a law like that if the last year is any indication, and if gays are allowed to marry in certain states, then that isn’t a federally recognized marriage so they cannot keep their foreign born spouse here. I just don’t trust the Democrats to put any language in there giving gays any rights similar to marriage in the upcoming immigration debate, and without that specific language in the law, then since DOMA prevents federal recognition gays can’t use their state marriages to keep a soouse here.
Cam
No. 52 · FakeName
And my point still stands: if DOMA bars any and all federal recognition of same-sex couples, Obama could not have extended the benefits to them regardless of whether he extended them to unmarried mixed-sex couples or not.
____________________________
That was an alteration of employment rules, not a regcognition of gay couples. Hetrosexuals can get domestic partner benefits so it wasn’t exclusionary.
QueerToday
It’s incredibly irresponsible to pit our communities against each other because immigration issues and queer issues are INTERTWINED! We must work together to build a broad progressive movement or we won’t get queer rights, immigrants rights, an end to wars, or anything else. Let’s lift each other up not tear each other down!
TADPOLICUS WEX
Keith Kimmel is a LIEbertarian troll, do not feed him EVER! Don’t waste time on STR8 H8 doucebags!
IntlHotMale
Uh… ‘Undocumented immigrants’ means illegal aliens. These folks need to be sent home and forbidden from returning, period.
Approximately half of my ancestors were obligated to clear Ellis Island – most likely so were yours – and those who were too ill to be declared fit for entry into this country, they were returned to the country from which they arrived. The other half are native (as in Cherokee).
Today, we need to apply the same methodology; you qualify or you don’t. We must put an end to ‘anchor babies’ and begin to hold potential Americans to standards that will benefit America, not the applicant.
My / Our country has gone to hell and nonsense like ‘immigration reform’ exacerbates the problem.
FakeName
any law that would allow gay immigrants any of the benefits of marriage, i.e. being able to keep a foreign spouse here won’t pass the Congress, they won’t let regulations change, nor pass a law like that if the last year is any indication, and if gays are allowed to marry in certain states, then that isn’t a federally recognized marriage so they cannot keep their foreign born spouse here.
But if a BRAND NEW law were passed to set up a process for allowing foreign-born partners to attain residency, DOMA would not affect it. That is the point. Whether such a law would pass or not, if it did pass DOMA would not have any effect.
DOMA prevents federal recognition
DOMA does not “prevent federal recognition” of same-sex couples. It defines the word “marriage” and the word “spouse”. If a statute that currently uses the word “spouse” were changed to read “partner” the statute would move beyond the purview of DOMA. If a new law were passed that did not include the word “marriage” or the word “spouse” DOMA would not apply to it.
That was an alteration of employment rules, not a regcognition of gay couples. Hetrosexuals can get domestic partner benefits so it wasn’t exclusionary.
Now I think you’re doing it on purpose. Is an extension of benefits to a same-sex couple “recognition” of that couple? Of course it is. It is an acknowledgement of the couple’s existence and status. If DOMA means what you claim it means, the recognition of same-sex couples for any benefits purpose would be barred.
I’ve provided a link to the actual language of DOMA. Click on it, read it, and tell me which part of it prevents the federal government from recognizing same-sex couples in any possible way.
JP
# 58 – IntlHotMale
So basically what you are saying is to bring back the HIV ban that WE fought so hard to repeal.
You also point out a “solution” to arriving immigrants, but what to do with those here?
Can you be any more stupid?
Same Crap
End anchor babies?
Start by amending section 1 of the 14th Amendment. Good luck with that.
Deport 12-15 million people?
Even better luck with that.
And I don’t think Keith Kimmel is a libertarian. Libertarians believe in open borders.
Chitown Kev
@QueerToday
Ok.
How are immigration issues and queer issues intertwined (I agree with you about that)…but 2
How do you allievate the very real fear of the community that it’s also the importation of homophobia
Chitown Kev
Let me add…it’s not just about the “brown people”… at least as far as I am concerned.
Immigrants from Eastern Europe can be virulently anti-gay.
Cam
No. 59 · FakeName
DOMA does not “prevent federal recognition” of same-sex couples. It defines the word “marriage” and the word “spouse”. If a statute that currently uses the word “spouse” were changed to read “partner” the statute would move beyond the purview of DOMA. If a new law were passed that did not include the word “marriage” or the word “spouse” DOMA would not apply to it.
____________________________________________________
LEGAL ANALYSIS
DOMA was passed by Congress in 1996 and signed into law by then-President Clinton. The law had two parts. First, it purportedly limits the Full Faith and Credit clause of the federal Constitution, allowing states to withhold recognition of same-sex legal relationships entered in other states. Second, DOMA provides that in any federal law, regulation, ruling, or administrative proceeding, the term ‘marriage’ is limited to a “legal union between one man and one woman as husband and wife” and the term ‘spouse’ is limited to a “person of the opposite sex who is a husband or wife.”
http://www.outinjersey.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=349:federal-recognition-of-lgbt-couples-is-lacking&catid=38:general-features-not-the-lead&Itemid=78
Bill Perdue
Some facts might put this in perspective.
• The Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo, signed after the first great US aggression against Mexico in 1848 guaranteed dual citizenship and US citizenship to Mexican nationals in Texas, New Mexico, California and parts of Colorado, Utah and Nevada.
• There were several other lesser empire building US attacks on Mexican sovereignty between then and the second great US aggression, NAFTA, in 1994 when Mexico reverted back to neo-colonial status.
• Although exports by Mexico to the US have quintupled the bulk of them except of agricultural products are from Maquiladora factories where low paid Mexican workers assemble US products for sale to the US and Canada.
• The environmental effects of NAFTA have been severe as companies from the US and other nations an pollute with little or no prevention. Underpaid workers live in sprawling neighborhoods around the Maquiladora factories with poor housing, education, medical care and sanitation. Many Mexican industries were dismantled as US and other multinationals now export their own parts to Mexico instead of buying them locally.
• On the farms NAFTA has created a social and environmental disaster as Mexican farmers were swamped by tariff-free food imports. By the hundreds of thousands and then the millions they deserted their farms and went north. Even though only 25% of Mexicans are rural, nearly half, 44% or all immigrant and imported workers to the US come from rural areas.
• Since NAFTA and the growth of Chinese industry real
wages in Mexico have been sliding further and further into the hole.
•
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/24/business/worldbusiness/24peso.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1260831841-BGHfej6PAox3U6atz6Db6w
Those are the facts and the conclusion we can draw from them is that Mexicans are coming here because US companies are wrecking their industry, framing and environment.
Here are some opinions.
• Immigrant and imported workers should be treated like workers born in the US to protect all working people. They should be in unions, get healthcare, get living wages, drivers licenses and all dual citizenship that’s ok too.
• Managers who use immigrant and imported workers to bust unions should be jailed and their companies should face confiscatory fines.
• Obama’s plan to deny health care to immigrant and imported workers is racist.
• The term illegal immigrant is racist and anti-working class.
• If Obama won’t push HARD to repeal DOMA and DADT we should call for his impeachment. We’ve had enough lies from enough slick hustlers.
• It’s amazing. Virtually every opinion mouthed by Keith Kimmel about immigrant and imported workers is rancid and reactionary. He’s a 21st century know-nothing.
FakeName
And what in that analysis contradicts what I said? What in it supports your interpretation that DOMA “absolutly prohibits Federal rights being given to gay couples”? It prohibits them from being given through the specific avenue of marriage, but any establishment of rights for same-sex couples that is outside the avenue of marriage is open.
InExile
DOMA does not need to be repealed to pass this law. This law has 118 Co-sponsors in the House and 23 in the Senate.
UNITING AMERICAN FAMILIES ACT
The UAFA defines Permanent Partner and Permanent Partnership as follows:
The term “permanent partner” means an individual 18 years of age or older who–
(A) is in a committed, intimate relationship with another individual 18 years of age or older in which both parties intend a lifelong commitment;
(B) is financially interdependent with that other individual;
(C) is not married to or in a permanent partnership with anyone other than that other individual;
(D) is unable to contract with that other individual a marriage cognizable under this Act; and
(E) is not a first, second, or third degree blood relation of that other individual.
The term “permanent partnership” means the relationship that exists between two permanent partners.[10][11]
This law should be included in comprehensive immigration reform. This would also be an acknowledgement that same sex “relationships” exist.
InExile
I should add DOMA needs to be repealed but the UAFA could help gay people now if included in CIR. DOMA is not even on the radar screen. In fact the White House removed DOMA repeal from their agenda posted on Whitehouse.gov.
Bill Perdue
No. 62 and No. 63 • Chitown Kev – QueerToday says is absolutely correct.
The issues of the LGBT communities, imported and immigrant workers, women, African Americans, Latino/Latinas and other are joined by the fact that most of us are working people and jointly face all the issues of the class war conducted by the rich against us. That’s a huge unifying feature.
As working people what we jointly face are the real, palpable hazards of life in an economic dictatorship underlaid by the differing forms of oppression peculiar to our specific communities. Those include inadequate wages, declining steadily since Reagan and 15,000,000 of us facing long term unemployment, poverty and growing unemployment. It also includes being subjected to various kinds of bigotries and higher chances of becoming statistics to poor health, addictions and the attentions of the police.
(Some rich people face little bits and pieces of the kind of oppression others face but they buy their way out of uncomfortable situations.)
—
I don’t agree that there’s a major threat of homophobia from immigrants or that there are any particular reasons to think that immigrants, except reactionary islamists and first generation christian Slavic fascist immigrants, are a big threat. Or even that there’s wide spread fear (except for those two groups) in our communities. That’s based on 25 years in LA watching the growth of our movement and communities and that of immigrant and imported workers. It appeared to me and others that very large numbers of GLBT folks came to the US from Mexico etc/, but that may be declining as many Latin cultures, especially Mexican culture, undergo rapid change.
notthinking
Because somebody who might be “illegal” couldn’t also be gay. . . . This type of thinking keeps us away from addressing what we really could be fighting for. Aren’t health care and immigration gay issues as well?
Marvin
Queerty, you should know better than to fall into the trap of allowing the right wing to turn marginal groups against each other in a fruitless, senseless game of “who’s most oppressed.” Bigotry is an afront against us all, and what’s good for immigrant rights is ultimately good for gay rights, and vice versa. Of course, you are right that the need to tackle immigration should not be used as yet another excuse–like the need to tackle medical insurance reform–for indefinitely delyaing justice for GLBT people. But, it is very unfortunate you decided to frame this as an “us” (GLBT folks) vs. “them” (undocumented immigrants) issue. That plays right into the hands of the right wing.
Swarm
YAY Queerty I only read the headline and nothing else yet…but am so happy someone is finally asking this question. This entire administration is one big backroom corruption deal.
The day Pelosi was secretly filmed in the back room meeting telling the illegals that “YOU are the real patriots” and some crap that all of America is unpatriotic ….was the day I predicted gay rights going right down the tube.
(yes I understand that begs the comment “she’s right blah blah” but I’m talking about an elected official’s subterfuge..she wouldn’t say that on tv I guarantee you)
Come on guys…what’s the voting block of actual LGBT? 12% or so? (IDK)
What’s the voting block for future immigrants? What’s the benefit of changing the demographic in “red AND blue states” BTW…
I married an illegal and his cousin lived in a Colorado restaurant basement for 2 years after 4 deportations and kept coming back so I am NOT anti immigrant whatsoever. jsyk
Same Crap
Can someone translate comment #72? I honestly have no idea what that person is saying.
hephaestion
The best film I’ve seen about illegal immigrants is called “Los Jornaleros.” It has a great gay character in it, too. In fact a gay guy really saves the day in the movie. This film helped me a lot to understand why so many illegal immigrants come here and what their lives here are like. I highly recommend it. (You can get it on Amazon and other places online.)
Brian
Illegals Immigrants didn’t March – their friends did.
The LGBT Community doesn’t have that. We don’t have a segment of the population willing to show support for us. THAT is our problem.
Caleb
#21: Same Crap, et al.
Immigration law is not simply a civil system. It is technically a crime to be unlawfully present in the United States. And is a removable offense that institutes a 10 year bar from readmission even if you come legally with a visa. If you are caught twice doing it, it is a 20 year bar.
If you are a noncitizen who is arrested and convicted (and in federal law “conviction” is a very very loose term) of an aggravated felony, you can be removed and banned permanently. Since 1996, almost anything can be construed to be an aggravated felony. It applies retroactively so that even if you committed the crime before 1996, you can now still be deported for it. Even if you served your sentence and have stayed out of trouble. Hundreds of thousands of LEGAL immigrants are deported every year because of our strict immigration policies.
There is unfortunately a lot of misperceptions about immigration in the United States. While deportation is NOT punishment for a crime and is a civil regulatory process, criminal law plays an immense role in immigration and deportation. A person who has lived in the United States since they were a baby can be removed from their job, family, children and sent away to a country they don’t know, remember or have any connections to.
While undocumented immigrants are a problem in many respects, the idea that most immigrants are illegal drug cartel members is ludicrous and offensive to even suggest. And it certainly is a CRIME to be here unlawfully.
Before people start rattling off news soundbytes they get from watching TV or reading uninformed blogs, they should actually do a little research and understand how the system works. Those of us who work in it every day know better.
Adam
QUEERTY. Dissing other constituencies/issues in the progressive coalition/mission is not only cheap and low-class, it’s counter-productive. GOOD JOB.
Caleb
Also, there is no such thing as “anchor babies” in immigration law. If you give birth to a child in the United States, that child is a citizen but YOU are not and you are certain able to be removed (and tens of thousands of people are every year). You face the choice of leaving your child here with family or taking it with you. Your child has the full rights of citizenship but there is NO law that says giving birth to a child here means the parent gets to stay.
There is a lot of discretion on the part of immigration judges to allow adjustment of status to LPR for these parents if they show they can’t return for fear of persecution or if they escaped domestic violence. Short of that, there is zero protection in the INA for parents who give birth to children here. If you are unlawfully present, you can be removed. This is another myth that anti-immigration people use to explain how the system works and it simply isn’t true.
Caleb
Also, since our economy went in the toilet, there has been a dramatic drop in both legal and illegal immigration to the United States.
So for you immigrant haters out there, there is one thing you can thank George Bush for!
Ian
I bet lots of people here would be straight up teabagging-Republicans if it wasn’t for the fact that they are gay.
Sometimes I wonder if we deserve to be treated as second class citizens when we have such hateful, racist, retrogrades as part of our coalition.
Ian
And one more thing. One of the most prominent pro-immigrant blogs http://www.dreamactivist.org/ was funded by an incredibly talented young woman who happens to be a lesbian. You will notice that the website features a prominent “rainbow” theme as a reminder that we must fight together in order to achieve equality for all.
Not only does DreamActivist put LGBTers in the spotlight, but it also ties immigration to gay rights as often as possible.
Here’s an excerpt from the latest entry:
“Still, I’m afraid the other concern I raised in my original post
regarding Rep. Gutierrez version of comprehensive immigration reform
has not yet been addressed, and it will not be addressed[….]it is important for that we include everyone in our definition
of family, including lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender families.
As the law stands now, LGBT U.S. residents are unable to bring the people they love into the country if
they so desire. It forces LGBT couples into the impossible situation
of having to choose between the love of their country, and the love of
their significant other”
So for those of you hating on “illegals[sic]” thank you for setting us back years and years of steady progress.
Keith Kimmel
No. 57 · TADPOLICUS WEX
“Keith Kimmel is a LIEbertarian troll, do not feed him EVER! Don’t waste time on STR8 H8 doucebags!”
LOL, you really are uninformed my child. First off, I am NOT straight. Just ask any of the various boys who have from time to time found their cock going down my throat and exploding therein. I wasn’t aware that blowing another male was something straight people do regularly. Tell me, do straight boys swallow? Because I like doing that, too. Yummy, protein!
I am a regular contributor/commenter on this site and I usually say my piece and move on. My responses also rarely provoke a reaction. Trolls don’t do such things. As for being a Libertarian, yes, I carried a card in that party for a short time and even held office (Media Communications Coordinator) in the county party. I turned in my card when I caught the LP parroting the US Chamber of Commerce by supporting tort reform (buzzword for “let megacorps build products that maim and kill people while keeping the vics from suing in court”) one too many times for my comfort. I do agree with several of their other positions, esp. the one about returning government to what is constitutionally authorized, lowering taxes and getting the government out of my personal business.
Douchebag? Well, I guess thats in the eye of the beholder, isn’t it? Based on the lack substance in the balance of your oh so eloquently articulated argument, I’m not concerned that someone of your apparent intellect has derogatory things to say about me. The last thing I want to do is be the leader of the fools, I’ll leave that position to Jesus Christ.
Keith Kimmel
No. 76 · Caleb
#21: Same Crap, et al.
I figure I am included in that et al. I honestly don’t care if its civil or criminal or administrative law or whatever. It doesn’t make a shred of difference to me. For me, its about right and wrong. You and others want to argue technicalities, but I am not playing lawyer tonight. I am arguing the issue and the policy, not the legalities.
No. 79 · Caleb
“Also, since our economy went in the toilet, there has been a dramatic drop in both legal and illegal immigration to the United States. So for you immigrant haters out there, there is one thing you can thank George Bush for!”
Which proves my assertion made in #39: they are here to rape the country, not build a better life for themselves or better our nation. The collective American Tit that so many were sucking from ran sort of dryish and low and behold, all these people who supposedly wanted to escape prejudice and whatever suddenly stopped coming. Gee, what a coincidence. Maybe they left because there was no more easy money to ship home.
I don’t hate immigrants. We’re all immigrants. Well, I am not. But most of the people reading this are. Unlike most, I truly belong here because this was my land long before the United States or even the damn imperialist colonies existed. But thats fine, we lost the war and I respect that. I don’t mind living as a conquered people for the most part, the United States provides people who apply themselves with plenty of opportunities. I despise some of the polices the US FedGov comes up with from time to time, but the overall system is sound at its core levels.
Tell ya what, if illegal free pass (a/k/a amnesty) gets through, the first thing I am going to do is call my broker and place buy orders on NYSE:WU, NYSE:GPN and NYSE:MGI. Hey, I have to offset my skyrocketing takes somehow.
richard
The bottom line is…Americans are to lazy to do the work that immigrants will do
Keith Kimmel
No. 80 · Ian
“I bet lots of people here would be straight up teabagging-Republicans if it wasn’t for the fact that they are gay. Sometimes I wonder if we deserve to be treated as second class citizens when we have such hateful, racist, retrogrades as part of our coalition.”
You know, I really get tired of hearing this divisive drivel/bullshit. Just because I support a sensible immigration policy that doesn’t let every swinging Tom, Dick and Harry into the country does not make me a racist. Its this very line of thought and assertion that gives the right wing the right to poke at the left so much. These constant broad, sweeping assertions that everyone who favors reasonable immigration laws is automatically a racist are completely unreasonable to most normal people and they see them for the bullshit that they are.
I would be a Democrat if the party would get over its love fest with codling criminals just because they are disadvantaged and giving all of my tax dollars away to people for no other reason than they are alive and I’d be a Republican if they could get out of bed with Corporate America and stop giving my money to people who already have too much of it to begin with.
Keith Kimmel
No. 84 · richard
“The bottom line is…Americans are to lazy to do the work that immigrants will do”
Man, its a bullshit festival tonight to be sure. I know three people right now that I can think of (two of them are queers) who are out of work and have been out of work for a long time. They’d love to clean hotel rooms, problem is, all those jobs are taken by the south of the border crowd. Same with fast food. When was the last time you went to a Asian buffet and saw a white guy working there. Its been a while for me. Let me guess, no qualified white people. The discrimination knife cuts both ways and for every peckerwood who hires only white boys with shaved heads and klan cards in their pockets, I’ll show you an Asian who only hires only his kind and pays them cash.
Caleb
Even if you’re Native American you’re an immigrant. Native Americans were here first but they came from Asia. But “technicalities” aside, because LEGAL and illegal immigration has subsided during the recession does not mean the only interest potential immigrants have is to rape America of anything.
People want to come to the United States for the opportunities it offers, which includes a better life – economically or otherwise. If those opportunities do not exist because we have a 10+% employment rate, it is only logical people won’t make the trip. People who truly want to “rape” America would come regardless knowing that they would still be able to access public services like you anti-immigrant folk argue. Unless of course that is not why they come (which, obviously is not why the vast majority come to the United States).
Coming for the opportunity to provide a better economic life for you or your children is not condemnable at all. It is why many people came here. I’m not arguing people should do it illegally but the United States has a long history of using the cheap labor Mexico (or China, or Ireland, or Italy, or Germany) provided when it suited the United States nad then when that proverbial tit dried up because the industries were built, the railroads were laid, the United States shut the door on these people.
While I certainly recognize the long history of plenary power that comes with being a sovereign nation and saying, we don’t have to let just anyone in…that policy is very different than what how we treat many who came here legally and those who may have come illegally, but have managed to build a life for themselves here and are contributing members to society.
The only bad thing about our immigration policies is that for centuries they have been puppeteered by racists and bigots who have some preconceived idea of what America should be. Let immigrants in when it suits our economic needs and shut them out or focus on deporting all of them when we don’t need them.
Caleb
I have serious doubts your friends have tried to apply to be housekeepers or work at McDonalds. The fact is they think they are too good to work for $7.00 an hour. Meanwhile your “south of the border” crowd is willing to work and work hard for that money.
Those jobs are not all taken. There are plenty of them available. You are not fooling anyone.
Keith Kimmel
No. 71 · Marvin
“Queerty, you should know better than to fall into the trap of allowing the right wing to turn marginal groups against each other in a fruitless, senseless game of “who’s most oppressed.” Bigotry is an afront against us all, and what’s good for immigrant rights is ultimately good for gay rights, and vice versa. Of course, you are right that the need to tackle immigration should not be used as yet another excuse–like the need to tackle medical insurance reform–for indefinitely delyaing justice for GLBT people. But, it is very unfortunate you decided to frame this as an “us” (GLBT folks) vs. “them” (undocumented immigrants) issue. That plays right into the hands of the right wing.”
Yeah, so lets remain silent while our country gets bent over and raped because it might help our cause and maybe we could get a few extra votes out of it the next time we want to get married. You know, the right wing is right about a few things and this is one of them. Some of you folks really make me sick sometimes.
And lets stop calling them “undocumented workers”. Thats doublespeak and bullshit, just like “police officer” vs “peace officer”, or (my personal favorite, when referring to judges) “justice of the peace”. Could we possibly pack any more bullshit into these phrases?
They are “illegal immigrants”.
Keith Kimmel
No. 88 · Caleb
“I have serious doubts your friends have tried to apply to be housekeepers or work at McDonalds. The fact is they think they are too good to work for $7.00 an hour. Meanwhile your “south of the border” crowd is willing to work and work hard for that money.
Those jobs are not all taken. There are plenty of them available. You are not fooling anyone.”
You know what Caleb, fuck you. You are an arrogant, ignorant little prick.
First off, its not $7.00 an hour anymore. Its $7.25. Minimum wage went up in July. And the McDonalds restaurants around here are not even taking applications, much less hiring anyone. And they have called them. One friend is getting 20 hours a week because he happened to stumble onto a restaurant when they fired someone earlier in the day. He got lucky. That was after he called all of them several times.
ANYONE who says jobs are plentiful right now either collects a welfare check, works for the government (where many a useless person winds up employed pushing papers from one side of a desk to another), is retired or falls into some other classification of armchair pundit who has no knowledge of what goes on in the real fucking world on the street. In other words, you are clearly someone who should keep your mouth shut because you don’t know what you are talking about.
There are plenty of out of work people who have tried desperately to get jobs. And as we all know, the queers are the first to go in many organizations when its time to trim fat.
Keith Kimmel
You know, its only after dealing with issues like this that I’d really like to go back into the closet. At least when I was in the closet, I didn’t automatically get lumped in with the ultra liberals by the general public. At least in the closet I wasn’t automatically taken for a liberal by the general public and automatically taken for a fucking Republican when I dare to advocate a line of thought that may be somewhere near the center instead of way the fuck out in left field.
It makes as much sense to say “all out gay folks” = “ultra liberals” as it does to say “sensible immigration policy” = “backwoods redneck hillbilly racist”. And thats a favorite tactic of the Liberals when it comes to immigration: anything short of let everyone in no questions asked and you’re a racist.
I’m tired of it. Its old. Its divisive. Its bullshit. Its unproductive. And its clear to anyone with a brain and the ability to be objective whats going on.
I think I have endured enough Queerty commenter insanity for a single night. I’m done with this thread for tonight.
** Goodnight from Oklahoma City. **
Brian NJ
Are you people nuts? I mean really. How low is the gay self-esteem, when gay people happily watch as everyone goes in front of the line on the Obama agenda, and WE go to the BACK. It is just the craziest thing I have ever seen.
Gay people have been asked to keep ceding their place in the agenda so others can get taken care of first. THAT is the issue, not the value of immigration reform.
There is a mental defect when gays can’t demand that DOMA and DADT get taken off the books before as opposed to AFTER other issues.
Immigration reform is a perfect example. The Obama administration has promised ACTION before the midterms. No action for us!!!! Mexicans who cut the immigration line to get cash, ahead in line over veterans who literally take bullets for the U.S., putting their lives ON the line. O U T R A G E O U S.
Brian NJ
There is something wrong when members of the administration look out their window and worry more about the civil rights of the landscapers than the gay vet guarding their door.
We have to come first, not last, on the Obama to do list.
Cam
No. 90 · Keith Kimmel said….
No. 88 · Caleb
“I have serious doubts your friends have tried to apply to be housekeepers or work at McDonalds. The fact is they think they are too good to work for $7.00 an hour. Meanwhile your “south of the border” crowd is willing to work and work hard for that money.
Those jobs are not all taken. There are plenty of them available. You are not fooling anyone.”
_________________________________
Do you know why people are able to pay such low wages? Because they believe that illegal workers will not report to the govt. the fact that the guy isn’t following the law, and that they are docked pay or fired for sick days, that they are told to work longer hours without overtime pay, they have no insurance etc… It isn’t that American’s are “Too Good” to take those jobs, it’s that Americans will complain to the proper authorities when an employer illegally is breaking the law to take advantage of them, so you can knock off the “They have a work ethic, American’s Don’t” charade.
Jaroslaw
I’m not going to wade into this because I see both sides, but I have to make a comment:
#49 said “….no person can ever be an illegal” – What have you been smoking? The law clearly is there, whether you like it or not! Work for change if you want to but don’t make silly statements like that. Sheesh.
Caleb
Cam-
I don’t entirely disagree with you. What I meant to say is that many people who are unemployed are not seeking the $7.25 (sorry, I misspoke) minimum wage. It’s just a reality. I completely agree with you that Americans who hire undocumented aliens do so for many reasons: lower wages, avoid paying health insurance/taxes, etc. But my point to Keith is that the issue is NOT the immigrant who is doing the job for $7.00/hour, it’s the American employing them illegally to cut corners.
That said, I’m fairly certain McDonald’s is following the law when it comes to wages and benefits and I’m fairly certain if any of his queer friends walked in when there was an opening at one, they’d get the job before a potentially undocumented Mexican immigrant. He is trying to have us believe that somehow immigrants in this country are supposed to give up their jobs at McDonald’s that his friends didn’t want until they became unemployed simply because now they are out of a job. Now that people have lost jobs, immigrants become a problem. No one was complaining when they were employed and going to McDonald’s and getting really cheap food because McDonald’s pays pennies to employes to do the jobs they do. (I’m just using McDonald’s as an example only because he brought up fast food).
You cannot have it both ways. The fact is all Americans would pay a lot more for the goods they buy, the food they eat and the services they purchase if American corporations were having to actually pay a living wage to people. This issue has nothing to do with illegal immigrants feeding off America. It has to do with corporations feeding off cheap immigrant labor and having puppets like Keith to blame it on the employees and not the employers.
Caleb
It’s so funny to me that the very people who yell for less government involvement in business – no living wage for Americans – let the market handle wages and prices are the ones who then get up in arms when companies go out and find the cheapest labor possible. If an employer was forced to pay the same wage and provide the same benefits whether they used an undocumented Mexican immigrant or an unemployed American – do you really think that they would risk hiring an undocumented immigrant in violation of the law?
The fact is, these people are willing to work for the substandard wages and benefits these companies are providing them and they are allowed to provide them precisely because conservatives/libertarians think the government should have no say in these issues when it comes to participants in a free market.
Same Crap
“I bet lots of people here would be straight up teabagging-Republicans if it wasn’t for the fact that they are gay.
Sometimes I wonder if we deserve to be treated as second class citizens when we have such hateful, racist, retrogrades as part of our coalition.”
I am shocked, shocked to find racism in the gay community.
KT
@95: the idea is that a person can’t (or at least shouldn’t) be “illegal” or “legal.” They may have broken the law at some point, but this doesn’t completely change their status to an illegal person. A person who has immigrated here illegally does not become a completely criminal, completely illegal person. We’ve constructed the class of “criminal” and “illegal” not to mean “a person who broke a law,” but to make a class that’s less of a person, less deserving of fair treatment, and easy to make laws against. It’s a terrible distinction to make, and when we stop thinking of undocumented immigrants as “illegals,” we can treat them with the respect they deserve as human beings.
Brian NJ
KT:
You called our U.S. border an “imaginary line.” It is not imaginary, because we created a law forbidding it to be crossed. You don’t respect that line, and think that anyone should be allowed to cross it.
You views are so extreme on this, you would rather see civil rights for non-citizens, over your civil rights as a gay citizen. I think that makes you a nut.
Same Crap
Brian NJ, what world do you live in where all gays are citizens and no undocumented immigrants are gay?
Chris
As a gay illegal immigrant living in the US, I support Gay Rights and a fair Immigration Reform. 🙂
I get to march a bunch of times per year.
(This also proves that there are LOTS of gay undocumented workers here… I also have a lot of friends in that situation)
romeo
I live in Los Angeles where a third or more of the population is in the country illegally, mostly from Mexico and points south. Of course, some of them are gay, and others are cool about us, but the vast majority are what you’d expect from third world Catholic countries. They want us dead, and often enough their gangs make good on that. Along with all the other reasons no country could survive without borders, why would gay people want to support this invasion? It’s a matter of survival, not racism.
Chris
Interesting reading about an Immigration Reform.
http://www.examiner.com/x-30431-Philadelphia-Immigration-Examiner~y2009m12d14-Immigration-Reform-will-resuscitate-the-stagnant-US-economy
Chris
OMG Romeo… is your last name “Exaggeration?”
LOL
Gangs are bad no matter what… Illegal immigrants or legal African-Americans.
PS: I’ve heard of some all gay gangs too.
And FRESH good news!!! http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2009/12/rep_luis_gutierrez_renewing_co.html
KP
If you want to lose, ally with those who oppress you when the oppress someone else and make the oppressors stronger and more powerful. If you want to seek defeat, build wedges instead of bridges with other people who are marginalized and outside of power. After all, nothing helps those in power divide and conquer as much as then those outside power do the dividing for them.
This sort of article and this attitude is exactly what is needed to maintain the status quo and the homophobes and xenophobes and racists don’t even have to get their hands dirty because Citizen Maim will do their dirty work for them.
romeo
no exaggeration at all. If you live in LA and don’t know what I’m talking about, then you’re living in a sealed box out at Point Dume.
And way to deflect the point. It’s not just the gangs. It’s virtually all the illegals that are anti-gay. And, yeah, the blacks are in on it,too, but this thread is about illegals. Ask a qualified public school teacher in LA if they can be out, or even remotely suspected of being gay, and hold on to their job without harassment and hounding. Forget about “easygoing” LA. That was the past. Illegals have turned it into a bigoted, third world hellhole. This is an unhappy, angry town now because of the way it has been ruined.
One thing, though. Where do those “gay gangs” congregate? I want to join.
The Swimmer
LOL! First thing I noticed was Janet Napolitano’s big face. Has it not crossed you all yet that she is Melissa Etheridge on a Harley Davidson in a leather jacket? Janet Napolitano was an amazing Governor but let’s be real… she is the “Man of the House” in the Obama Whitehouse.
Chris
Romeo, please don’t confuse gay gangs with gay gang bangs.
Do a Google search for “Gays Taking Over (DTO)” and you’ll find some reading material regarding the subject.
To blame the illegals to LA’s misery is somewhat unfair. Most homeless people are not illegal immigrants. And not all criminals are illegal immigrants. Not all homophobic student are illegal immigrants. Living there, you should know better than that.
I would blame the unhappiness and anger on the chaotic traffic and horrible public transportation system before blaming on the illegal immigrants.
Cam
No. 98 · Same Crap said…
“I bet lots of people here would be straight up teabagging-Republicans if it wasn’t for the fact that they are gay.
Sometimes I wonder if we deserve to be treated as second class citizens when we have such hateful, racist, retrogrades as part of our coalition.”
I am shocked, shocked to find racism in the gay community.
____________________________
I have a difficult time responding to such an idiotic statement. Please stop trying to turn this discussion into something it isn’t. This comment is about immigration as an issue rather than gay rights. YOU are the racist by assuming that all immigrants are of different racial make-ups, or that all people with opinions on here are white. By saying that the gay community deserves to be treated as second class citizens, I basically believe that you are not gay and are instead an immigration advocate coming on here because I can’t imagine what level of self-hatred would lead a gay person to say that the community deserves second class status because some people on a blog dissagree with your opnion on the timleyness of legislation. If you are a gay person, then seriously, look into getting help. I may hate the fact that many of the Baptist churches in the black community have opinions on gay rights that are different than my own, but it would never even occure to me to suggest that because of those opinions blacks should have their rights taken away.
romeo
@KP: Nice platitudes. Loser talk, BTW. If the other “oppressed” are as gay-hating as our home-grown oppressors, how you gonna build a bridge?
We have enough problems already here. Just keep the illegals the fuck out.
KP, do you have an answer to my question here?
romeo
@ Chris #109: Those of us who live in this city, and have watched it deteriorate, know what the root of the problem is. And no rhetorical gymnastics are going to change what we see and hear every day. LA has always had the other things you mentioned, and it did just fine. Gay people could be happy here. But now the city has a terminal cancer, and it’s name is illegal immigrants.
Deal with it.
KP
If you want to know what happens when gays and immigrants work together instead of fighting each other, look at Oregon: http://tinyurl.com/ydss5zl
There gays and immigrants work together, support each other’s issues and are stronger together. Perhaps if you lead with community spirit and optimism rather than fear-mongering and cynicism, you might get better results.
Chris
Romeo, I don’t think LA has changed all that much. Perhaps your perception of the place where you live did, but hey, there is always the option of moving away. I heard places in the South has much less cases of “terminal cancer.” Oh wait… they don’t have gays either. Interesting!
And BTW, there is no way of keeping us, the illegal immigrants, “the fuck out” because we are already “the fuck in.”
DEAL WITH IT!
romeo
If you’re gay, then you’re alright by me, Chris. I’d love to open America to all the world’s gay people. They need the refuge.
But don’t be too sure America can’t keep illegals out. You haven’t seen this country when it REALLY went nuts.
And KP, gays and illegals working together would only happen in the most isolated and marginal of circumstances. The culture and tradition that is flooding in to our borders overwhelms any such effort. All any of you are really advocating is the destruction of gay freedom in this country, a delicate enough thing already.
You’re going to have to choose which side you’re on. I was born here. I’ve done my share of suffering because I’m gay with the culture we already have, but at least there is some fair-mindedness in our culture. Immigrant cultures bring me only death. BTW, Chris, how are gay people treated back where you come from?
Chris
Romeo, like in the US, gays back home had certain parts of the country where we would be somewhat safer than others. Usually big cities were safer, and yet, not totally safe.
Skinheads were a constant thread.
So by your last posting I can tell that your biggest fear is that immigrants will make harder for us (gays) to achieve our goals of equality. What if instead of going against them, show them that we are a huge support?
romeo
Chris, you must be like a teen-ager or something. If we give them our support, they’ll take it and kick us in the teeth. Just like the Muslims.
Chris
Wow, you not only hold a grudge against immigrants but also against Muslims?
No, I am not a teenager. I’m in my early 30’s.
Same Crap
Sure, CAM. I am a straight immigration advocate, and homophobic, too. Believe that if you must.
When some gay people of color view the gay community as a elite, white, or rich community it’s because of attitudes like this.
Not all of us are from families who came over on the Mayflower (or crossed the Bering Strait). Did it ever occur to you that many in the gay community are affected by the issue of immigration, whether legal or illegal, because we are immigrants ourselves, come from immigrant families, or have friends and relatives in limbo because of the immigration process? Or there are many of us who see immigration as a human rights issue, just as important as gay rights?
People can support immigration reform and gay rights. The two aren’t mutually exclusive,
Immigration is a timely issue by the way.
romeo
I notice that neither of you are staying to my points here. That says it all.
And yes, Chris, I do have a grudge against Muslims. And if you’re gay, you should too. 99% of the people who frequent this website do. Are you nuts?!
Chris
I’m sorry Romeo but I am better than that.
I won’t hold grudges against people simply because they don’t agree with my lifestyle. They are entitled to an opinion as well.
I’m sorry if I am not staying with your points. I thought I had addressed/commented on them already. Unfortunately your xenophobia side tracks me.
Good luck hating Christians, Catholics, Muslims, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, and every other religion that doesn’t agree with our lifestyle.
Queertys Xenophobiasucks
Queerty,
This kind of race bating, xenophobic crap that doesn’t deserve the light of day. I have one question to pose to you, how did your ancestors get into this country? Were they documented? Did they have to apply for a visa? Did they have to find a US sponsor? If they came before 1960, highly unlikely. Last I checked American schools were not yet teaching how white people sprung up from the ground on this continent!! Unregulated borders for centuries led to making this nation great. Influxes of immigrants can nearly always be tied to economic growth and greatness. It is pathetic that the race-bating, xenophobic and isolationist history of this country is still alive and well. Articles like this prove one thing: Queers haven’t learned the lesson of their own oppression; in capable of building alliances the queer rights movement will die a slow, irrelevant death.
Fact: Tens of thousands of queers flee to the United States to seek asylum from tyranny and horrific conditions in a majority of the world. The United States is one of a few countries that allow asylum for queers. This process is needlessly complicated by the current tyrannical approach to immigration policy that makes every attempt to keep queers who would seek asylum out. Nearly ALL people who eventually are able to obtain asylum in the US for prosecution in their home country for Gender Identity/Expression or Sexual Orientation have spent SIGNIFICANT amounts of time ‘undocumented’ or ‘out of status’. As someone who has worked directly with dozens of applicants, I can say that the current immigration system does everything in its power to deter people from seeking assylum; queers who in their home country frequently are tortured, discriminated against, and murdered in a way that US Queers cannot even imagine. It makes American queers grievances with their governments look trite.
Fact: There are tens of thousands of bi-national queer couples in this country who are denied the right to be together because of America’s draconian “Keep everyone OUT” immigration policies, that refuse any person they can, for any reason, regardless of the rights outlined under international treaties (such as recognizing marriages from other countries that allow same sex marriage. Such selective recognition violates dozens of multi-lateral treaties). Passages of comprehensive immigration reform -if queers can play nice with others and build bridges not burn them – will likely be the first step in addressing this disparity. Stand alone bills like UAFA (uniting american families act) do not have enough broad base support for passage; which is why the largest LGBT Immigration groups are now seeking inclusion in Comprehensive Immigration Reform – queers need to learn to play nice or we will be sacrificed out of this bill.
Fact: In California’s Prop 8 battle, Latino, Catholic voters voted in larger numbers, and by larger margins AGAINST prop 8. Catholics remain the largest ‘swing vote’ –this from the most comprehensive research since Prop 8’s passing the David Binder study in spring 2009. Latino/Latina voters have a more complex understanding of how discrimination operates in the United States and are more willing to resist tyrannical uses of government to exclude people from the full rights and privileges granted under the US Constitution. This has been shown in study after study.
Despite the race/religion bating comments above; white protestants continue to have the WORST voting record or any slice of America! I say deport them back to their countries of origin! Get the F@%*$ out of my multinational country! There is no place for your bigotry! Go back and start some nationalist-white power movements in Europe; we can all see how well that worked for the Nazi’s!
If queers are incapable of building bridges with other communities, around issues that are not upper class, white dominated (such as f’ing marriage); this movement is doomed to failure and all of the agenda that you list will fall flat on its face.
The reality is that, America is not going to remain a white hegemony for long. The sooner white queers wake up and realize this, the better. Your race bating, race blaming, and xenophobia will come back to bite you all in the ass. The more you work to distance communities of color, the more you will eliminate any potential base that might have voted for your agenda.
Same Crap
Spot on, no. 122.
Chris
Yeap… bravo no. 122!
KP
Why not actually compare GLTB rights in Mexico, Central and South America to GLTB rights in the United States? While not identical from country to country, it appears that gays are doing as well or better south of the border. http://tinyurl.com/c476s3
Of course, looking at facts would invalidate your stereotypes and bigotry…and that would never do.
romeo
@ #122: Again, you promoted your pro-immigration agenda all around the outskirts of the issue, and got out some of your hatred of white people, BUT
You did not address my point. Latinos in LA HATE US, and will fuck us over any chance they get. All you’re saying is that you want what you want and you have no regard for the fate of gay people of any race or ethnicity. Your anger and your rhetoric doesn’t show me shit. I see it and hear every day here in the streets of LA. Why the fuck don’t immigrants build bridges with US? Why should we go begging and pleading to them?
And the voting record you quoted was for American citizens of Latino descent. Very different than the illegals pushing in here. And as for Europeans resigning themselves to oblivion in America, have you forgotten how we got it in the first place? You think we can’t get nuts and do it all over again? You don’t know my people, asshole.
Brian NJ
Do you know why gay rights sit on the bottom of the list in the Obama administration? Read post 122, and you will get your answer. Ass-in-the-air gays who let other issues go first in line because of their own low self-esteem.
Chris
Wow Romeo, post #122 was not even directed at you. Why get all dirty-mouthed?
Also, why use your personal bad experiences with the LA immigrants as a generalization that all immigrants hate whites? Perhaps they are just treating you the same way you treat them? (speculation of my part… no facts to support this)
Like I said before, perhaps you are tired of LA and that’s why so much hate and unhappiness from your part. I would consider relocation.
InExile
Don’t worry guys, a new immigration reform bill was introduced today in Congress and GAYS WERE NOT INCLUDED. So we should know gays ARE included to give any support.
Chris
Brian NJ, I actually think the issue is in the bottom of the list because we gays have too much of an ego/attitude to actually be a cohesive group.
KP
One of the reasons Lieberman is not being punished for threatening filibusters and trashing one health care reform agreement after another is that he is being protected by the White House. Why? Because Lieberman is the point person on the gay rights legislation the White House wants to pass. They are letting the public option and the Medicare buy-in die in hopes of passing gay rights legislation, so I would not say it’s on the bottom of their priorities.
You know, if you’re a single-issue activist, you vision is limited. That’s what leads to people who don’t recognize that human rights must be universal, not based in interest groups. People willing to allow discrimination and oppression of others only foster the conditions and values that will oppress them.
Chris
I agree with KP… You just can’t pick and choose which part of human rights and equality you choose to support. It is all or nothing.
Same Crap
Well, if you know anything about legislative process, it’s that the bill that’s introduced often does not look like the bill that is signed. Provisions and amendments are added, and measures are taken away.
romeo
I get angry on this issue, and I go over the top. I shouldn’t. It is a serious issue. However, I meant everything I said. Immigration advocates do not accept, or even acknowledge, responsibility for the consequences of what they advocate. They refuse to deal with the hard questions.
And deal with this, in all sincerity, Europeans are still two thirds of the population in this country. The anger in my post above, #126, pretty much reflects the vast majority’s opinion, gay and straight, when they’re among themselves. That’s the reality. That’s the truth about the 200 million of the 300 million people in this country. And as imperfect as those Europeans are, I’d much rather take my chances with them as experience and history tells me to do. Sorry.
Cam
No. 119 · Same Crap said…
Sure, CAM. I am a straight immigration advocate, and homophobic, too. Believe that if you must.
When some gay people of color view the gay community as a elite, white, or rich community it’s because of attitudes like this.
_________________________-
And which attitudes are you speaking of? A group of people being upset that their issues are not being tackled while another issue is has nothing to do with race. So please explain to me how this is a racist topic, immigrants come from all over the country, gays who want our issues taken care of now come in all races and colors. You are the one that brought race up on the attack. You’re the one continuing to bring it up. There is nothing racist about a gay person going “Hey! We supported Obama, why are we continually getting shoved to the back of the line?” But since you do not share their opinions you obviously had to find some name to call them to back up your opinion in the absense of facts. May I remind you that in your other post you said basically that gays may deserve to be treated like second class citizens because of questioning the timing of this push by Obama. So once again, you name call, and then say that because people don’t agree with you on the timlyness of this legislation that they all deserve to be treated like second class citizens. Retreat from your comments all you want, but if you are gay then they show a level of self hate that is really sad.
Same Crap
Thanks, Romeo, for the honesty. I mean that sincerely.
It takes guts to admit there is an element of white nationalism and European ethnocentrism in your anti-immigrant stance. Most couch it in something else.
As for me, I don’t care if this country becomes less white. I can live with that.
Cam
No. 131 · KP
One of the reasons Lieberman is not being punished for threatening filibusters and trashing one health care reform agreement after another is that he is being protected by the White House. Why? Because Lieberman is the point person on the gay rights legislation the White House wants to pass. They are letting the public option and the Medicare buy-in die in hopes of passing gay rights legislation, so I would not say it’s on the bottom of their priorities.
You know, if you’re a single-issue activist, you vision is limited. That’s what leads to people who don’t recognize that human rights must be universal, not based in interest groups. People willing to allow discrimination and oppression of others only foster the conditions and values that will oppress them.
_____________________________
That isn’t true, he isn’t being punished because he Caucuses with the Democrats and Reid doesn’t want any votes going against him as speaker. As for being a single issue advocate, gays have supported every other civil rights issue out there. There is nothing wrong with being focused on issues that deal with the gay community. Becuase if we do not have some focus there are always ten other issues that can and will distract us. The leader of Mexico is pressuring the White House for immigration reform, funny though I don’t see them pushing for sports equality for women, gay rights, better treatment for kinds in our schools etc… Basically you are advocating that the gay community be the only group to dilute our advocacy.
romeo
You’re right, I am proud of my heritage, flawed as much of it is. However, my stance is first and foremost for gay people of all races and backgrounds.
Chris
Romeo, so you are first and foremost a gay activist who fights for equality for all. Once that is achieved, you will tackle the “white nationalism and European ethnocentrism” (as mentioned by Same Crap). I hope I will make the second cut for being gay…
Interesting how you organize YOUR priorities within your head.
Chris
By the way, I forgot to address the “proud of my heritage” part…
I am also proud of my heritage, and that doesn’t mean that I “hold a grudge” against any other heritage there is. There is a big difference between pride and whatever else is going on with you.
romeo
Chris, having a bit of a hard time discerning your point in #139, but let me point out that I want to take my chances with the European cultural tradition because I know gay people have their best chances with that. Bigotry and racism is a powerful strain in any culture or tradition. Do you know what latinos say openly about blacks here in LA, and vice-versa? No one is above reproach. But for all the white bigotry there is still more fair-mindedness among us, and the serious bigotry and fanaticism is a minority among white people. That is my experience and my observation. Whites voted for gay marriage in California by a healthy margin in that election last year. If it had been just them, we would have won. That’s the truth.
And, incidentally, I advocate for gay people and for a civilized society. One side of my family came here when this was still an English colony, but the other side immigrated through Ellis Island where they had to submit to background checks and health inspections. We have copies of the documents. I have no problem with a standard, rational immigration procedure. What’s being advocated, however, amounts to the wholesale invasion and destruction of the country. Make of that what you will.
Cam
The main point of this argument is that why are tax paying citizens relegated to second class citizenship while people who have broken the law to be here and don’t pay taxes. Calling this a racial issue etc… is ridiculous. This is an issue of a large group that supported Obama from the begining, both financially and with get out the vote efforts being ignored time and time again. If it wasn’t immigration it would be infrastructure, import Export etc… there is always another issue that Rahm Emmanual can put in front of our rights.
KP
While not all undocumented immigrants are Latino, they are the stereotype that is being pushed in this discussion. Why not look more closely at the facts, though, and note that many Latin American countries have stronger gay rights protections than the US.
As to Lieberman caucusing with the Democrats, certainly, he does. But that would not protect him from retribution for his actions without other priorities trumping that. The White House has made clear that Lieberman must be appeased – if he’s not delivering the 60th vote – then why? Because Lieberman is about to pass out of his committee a domestic partners benefits bill. His role in this and the climate bill give him protection to be such an ass on health care.
Cam
No. 143 · KP said…
While not all undocumented immigrants are Latino, they are the stereotype that is being pushed in this discussion. Why not look more closely at the facts, though, and note that many Latin American countries have stronger gay rights protections than the US.
As to Lieberman caucusing with the Democrats, certainly, he does. But that would not protect him from retribution for his actions without other priorities trumping that. The White House has made clear that Lieberman must be appeased – if he’s not delivering the 60th vote – then why? Because Lieberman is about to pass out of his committee a domestic partners benefits bill. His role in this and the climate bill give him protection to be such an ass on health care.
______________________________________
You keep claiming that this discussion is racist, and now you keep trying to divert the issue by saying that many latino countries have stronger gay rights protections that the U.S. (Which countries, since gay marriage recently was denied in Argenina) But the fact is, that comment has nothing to do with this issue, we are discussing why the gay community, which supported Obama financially and with our time should continually be pushed aside for every other issue that comes along, including an issue dealing with individuals who are not taxpaying voters and who have broken the law to be here. You keep trying to paint this as a racist discussion but it isn’t. It is an advocacy discussion. I find it interesting that you keep saying that the gay community needs to continually abandon our issues to support every other cause out there because that is good for us. I don’t see any other advocacy groups abandoning their issues to push for our rights.
As for Lieberman, that is not true, Rahm Emmanual said specifically that they were not going to work on gay rights so they could focus on Health Care. Lieberman is conservative in his religious beliefs and appointing him as a supposed point man on gay rights was a slap in the face to the community from Rahm Emmanual who has shown that he is uncomfortable around gay issues.
Chris
No. 144 CAM – Just let me add that I may be here illegally, but I still pay taxes.
Since we are talking about money, perhaps the reason why immigration has a bigger push to be dealt with is due to the amount of money the government can make by letting me become a legal alien and pay the fines, etc. VERSUS the amount of money the government can make by letting me get married to Jose, etc.. See post #104.
Cam
No. 145 · Chris said…
No. 144 CAM – Just let me add that I may be here illegally, but I still pay taxes.
Since we are talking about money, perhaps the reason why immigration has a bigger push to be dealt with is due to the amount of money the government can make by letting me become a legal alien and pay the fines, etc. VERSUS the amount of money the government can make by letting me get married to Jose, etc.. See post #104.
___________________________
Hi Chris, I agree that finacially it would be an incredibly smart move for the country to get this isue taken care of. And my issue with the other poster wasn’t that I dissagree with immigration reform, but with his contention that people saying “Hey! you said you’d do something about gay rights, why are you stalling.” were racists because they didn’t agree with him. You make a logical case on the financial side. I still feel that gay rights being a civil rights issue should be taken care of now, but I also don’t feel that our govt. is so incapable that they can only work on one issue at a time. That is a major fallacy, that we are allowing them to get away with.
Chris
Ah, I completely agree CAM. I also agree that Congress should be able to handle more issues at a time.
Same Crap
“Whites voted for gay marriage in California by a healthy margin in that election last year. If it had been just them, we would have won. That’s the truth.”
Younger whites did. Older whites voted for prop 8 by large margins.
How do you explain Maine then? It’s about 97-98% white and receives very few immigrants from anywhere, and the state voted against marriage equality by a slightly larger margin than CA did (53-47% v. 52-48%) despite all the lessons gotten and learned from Prop 8?
You can’t blame blacks and newly naturalized American citizens for that one.
Keith Kimmel
Nice to see this thread blossom overnight. How beatiful. If I wasnt getting ready for a dinner date, I would sit here and argue with you all some more. Not to worry, I will make time for this thread tonight. Espically the part about how there is no such thing as an illegal immigrant/person. Oh, thats a good one. Play word games all you folks like. Illegal immigrant, undocumented worker, peace officer, police officer, whatever. Its all the same goddamned thing.
Keith Kimmel
Ah, you know what? Fuck it. In just re-read all of the comments and while I see a handful of people who get it, the rest of you all are just a disgrace to homosexuals. Not just in your positions but the way you argue them. There is a right way and a wrong way to go about getting our rights.
Most of you seem to be arguing for a “the ends justify the means” approach, to include fixing elections. If ya cant win it at the ballot box, rather than trying to change minds and win hearts while approaching it from the constitutional issues in court, you’d rather fix elections and support the idea of giving voting rights to people who are neither entitled to them nor deserving of them.
It really is sad. But unfortunately, people like you are the majority. And you are personally responsible for the mess that this country has become.
Tackel
#122 standing ovation:
#148, same crap, so right!
Not only Maine,97/98 percent white voted against gay marrige,
but the Mormon church, over 98 percent white gave 20 million dollars to defete prop 8. Church of Scientology over 92 percent gave 1 million to defete prop 8. The Catholic church over 85 percent also gave 1 million to defete prop. No they cannot blame blacks for this one.
Jaroslaw
As frequent readers of this post know, I work for the welfare office and like it or not, what Romeo says is correct. Unfortunately, many people who disagree with him base their opinions on what they WISH the world was like, how things SHOULD be in theory. I can see how Muslim & other influences have changed the policies of our agencies, of the PUBLIC schools around here and on and on. (just for the record, I don’t begrudge accomodating Muslims, but if you can’t have a Christmas tree or anything Christian, I can’t understand why Ramadan drives the day to day operations….) This is not to excuse the errors and biases of the past, which can never be corrected but we should try to do better. I agree that a rational and consistent immigration policy is necessary, children born of illegals should NOT become citizens, that is a holdover policy from two centuries ago….. and while many individual Muslims etc. are nice people, their leaders and other immigrant groups for various reasons are NOT here to assimilate but to divide and conquer. Sorry if this is unpopular, but it is true most of the time.
Same Crap
“children born of illegals should NOT become citizens, that is a holdover policy from two centuries ago”
If you consider the Constitution to be a “holdover policy from two centuries ago”…
Jaroslaw
Same Crap – Come on. Are you unaware that things have changed over two centuries? Women can vote? Non-white-non-property owners can vote? We no longer have slavery?
The purpose of the “children born become citizens” is from a time when our nation was growing and the powers at the time wanted to make sure people wouldn’t be fearful to immigrate here. Underpopulation is no longer a concern, obviously from the comments posted here.
Keith Kimmel
No. 154 · Jaroslaw
“Same Crap – Come on. Are you unaware that things have changed over two centuries? Women can vote? Non-white-non-property owners can vote? We no longer have slavery?”
Not to mention, blacks are no longer considered 5/8ths of a person! What times we live in these are!
Yes, the anchor baby provision should be abolished.
Jaroslaw
AMEN 155 thanks
Same Crap
The 14th Amendment was a post-Civil War Amendment, passed at a time when the US was already receiving millions of immigrants Europe.
Anyway, the Constitution does not change with facts on the ground, only through amendments and repeal.
Read the first section 1 of Amendment 14:
“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.”
You want to end birthright citizenship? Amend this. I can tell you that an openly transgender atheist will be elected president before this is amended to not include children of illegal immigrants born in the US.
romeo
@ SameCrap #158: The Constitution is a document that has been amended and modified many times over the last two centuries to accommodate emerging realities and consequent necessities.
FakeName
Not to mention, blacks are no longer considered 5/8ths of a person!
Black slaves were never considered 5/8 of a person. They were enumerated for Census purposes as 3/5 of a person.
romeo
SameCrap #157: Are you sure of that? I’m pretty certain that if a repeal amendment started a round through the state legislatures, it would pass in almost every state now.
Also, remember that the concept of the anchor baby is changing. The kid is no longer that much of an anchor. The child is a citizen, but the parents remain illegal and subject to deportation. We’ve been seeing the consequences of that more and more here in Southern California. The state can and does put children into child protective services, and deport the parents. There have been cases noted in the LA Times of parents who allowed this to happen, rather than take the child with them, which is their option, of course. Presumably, they do it on the hopes of getting back in later. Kind of makes me wonder what kind of parents these are.
Same Crap
Romeo, since the inclusion of the Bill of Rights, it has been amended a whopping total of 17 times in the last 200 years.
And you will not get the birthright citizenship amended. There is no political will for it. Trying to get 2/3 of both houses of Congress and 2/3 of state legislatures to approve this change is a fool’s errand.
Same Crap
“I’m pretty certain that if a repeal amendment started a round through the state legislatures, it would pass in almost every state now.”
And what do you base this on? Your own anti-immigrant intuition?
Anti-immigrant fervor reached a fever pitch in the 1990s with prop 187 in California and with the Gringrich revolution in Congress. They could not even do it then. What makes you so sure that can do now, especially after demography and voting patterns have changed much since then?
Jaroslaw
OK maybe it’s been amended only 17 times, but our understanding of how it is applied and multitudes of court decisions would qualify as “modifications” to me. You’re splitting hairs Same Crap. Although I would probably agree with you that getting the Constitution modified would be a “fools errand.”
Oh it should be modified IF the concept of illegal alien means anything AND especially if we are deporting the parents. But that would be too consistent. Too much political will to do the proper thing. After all, both political parties have let the illegal immigrant thing build and build to 12-15 million in number.
By the way,I like how you didn’t respond to my second paragraph in #154. Just ignore and continue…….
Same Crap
I did, Jaroslaw.
The 14th Amendment had nothing to do with immigration or luring immigrants.
“The 14th Amendment was a post-Civil War Amendment, passed at a time when the US was already receiving millions of immigrants Europe.”
And courts don’t modify the constitution, they interpret it. Courts have interpreted the 14A as applying to children of illegal immigrants.
romeo
Same #161, it’s easy to say “there’s no political will,” but there will be increasing pressure for it, just like the pressures that led up to all the other amendments. In other countries the people are afraid of the government. In America, the government is afraid of the people. That’s why our government is so paralyzed; no one wants to lead.
Somewhat to the point, let me make a prediction. As the demographics of this country continue to change, the perceptions of the dominant group will change accordingly. Automatic biological responses, hard wired in the brain, will automatically and increasingly go into effect. That those subliminal responses are real has been proven in many studies. And we’ve certainly seen it in history before.
Never say never, Same, you have no idea of the power of biology when it comes to a perceived threat to survival. Nature does not give one flying fuck about man’s ideas about what “ought to be.” Gay people are an excellent example of that, BTW.
Jaroslaw
Amendments don’t always mean what they say on the surface. Remember that famous politician in Texas that got all his taxes forgiven in the 80’s? You would have never guessed in reading the legislation that is what it did.
It should be obvious that legislation, much like road construction, seldom is in tune with current needs. Our economy was booming when immigrants were coming from Europe so I don’t dispute that the court intepreted the amendment the way you say (although I haven’t researched it either) the point I would say is that the courts change their mind.
If everything was crystal clear like you imply Gays would be able to get married. Equality seems like a lot easier concept than Jus Soli or Jus Sanguinis!
Again, whatever the law is or the courts previously said, there is NO reason at this time for children of illegals to be granted citizenship. If there is, let me know the logic.
FakeName
Again, whatever the law is or the courts previously said, there is NO reason at this time for children of illegals to be granted citizenship.
So you’re suggesting that we should ignore precedent when it suits some political expediency? That’s certainly an…interesting…theory of jurisprudence, and by “interesting” I of course mean “a one-way ticket to anarchy and madness.”
romeo
SameCrap #162: shows what you know, Prop. 187 passed in California. It was ruled unconstitutional on appeal on a technicality. LOL Like I said, never say never.
Jaroslaw
Fake Name – it is difficult to understand why people post here without reading……it has been mentioned several times:
THINGS CHANGE. Are you suggesting nothing ever changes? READ PLEASE… please… p l e a s e……Slavery was CONSTITUTIONAL and is no longer. IT CHANGED.
I would have to do more research, but nothing I’ve looked at so far (unless I missed it) says specifically children of illegals are guaranteed forever and ever that their children will be birthright citizens.
ROMEO help me out here! Maybe you can get through where I’m not!
romeo
@ J: I think we’re dealing with a brick wall here, sorry to say. Like I said waaaay up in this thread, they just don’t want to take responsibility for the consequences of what they advocate.
I will point out to FakeName that precedents are always being replaced in law as a consequence of new information or changes in public perception. The fastest way to get a ticket to “anarchy and madness” is for governments NOT to change.
BTW All, just saw an article from the census bureau. The point at which non-Hispanic whites, which is at 2/3 of the population now, becomes 1/2 of the population has been pushed up at least another decade, from 2042 to 2050, because of the restrictions on immigration put in place after 911. Also, the economic situation is influencing the number of illegals entering. And who knows what else will come along? Like I said, never say never.
romeo
As for anchor babies and the birthright law, don’t think many other countries have such a rule. So, internationally, there isn’t much precedent for it, which would be brought up when we decide to change it. Besides, the Supreme Court could abolish it in an instant by re-interpreting the wording, and that’s probably what will happen.
Ian
People listen to Romeo:
White people = good
Blacks, Latinos, Muslims, everyone else = baaaaaaad
Now let’s get those bad people out of OUR country, okay?
romeo
@ Ian #172: Snarkiness is not participation. Some of us raised hard questions here and we offered reasons for our points of view. Questions that the illegal immigration advocates could not respond to. If you and the others don’t want to come up with reasoned responses and just resort to bullying, then go ahead and bully. It won’t change a goddamned thing.
FakeName
Jaroslaw sez: THINGS CHANGE. Are you suggesting nothing ever changes? READ PLEASE… please… p l e a s e……Slavery was CONSTITUTIONAL and is no longer. IT CHANGED.
Why yes, your response is a perfectly adequate reading of what I said!
Oh wait, no it isn’t, because I never said or even intimated that things don’t change or that things shouldn’t change. What I said was that you seem to be advocating for change without regard for that which currently exists, because you would prefer it be a different way. That’s not how this country operates. Or at least it’s not supposed to be. Slavery is unconstitutional because the Constitution was amended. Children born in the United States are citizens because of how the Constitution was interpreted. They don’t suddenly stop being citizens because it becomes inconvenient or unpopular.
romeo
@ FakeName: I beg to differ. In this country it depends on HOW inconvenient or unpopular.
LoveMoby
Just found out the new CIR bill will NOT include the UAFA. Once again weve been thrown under the bus. I’m so sick of the dems and their lack of spine when it comes to…well anything really.
Ian
Romeo
You said that 99% of latinos “hate” us and that LA has become a cesspool because of “illegals[sic]” both of which you pulled out of your ass since there’s no such data supporting that.
And you’re going to talk to me about having a reasonable debate? GTFO
Jaroslaw
Fake Name – for the last time, amendments, legislation & court decisions often mask other agendas and they also have unintended consequences. If you don’t understand that, we don’t need to have a discussion. This point obviously has nothing to do with whether we agree or disagree, it just IS.
Further, I understand slavery is illegal now because the Constitution changed. So you acknowledge we have a process for change but you haven’t answered why we should or should not change it with regard to illegals giving birth to citizens. (“precedent” is not an answer. Slavery has existed for 95% of humans time on earth so that has a pretty good precedent!) I’m waiting to hear your reasons why this should not change.
IAN – does Romeo really need to provide you with data that illegal immigration is a problem issue in California? Now I admit as others have noted here, they add to the economy, pay taxes for which they will never get benefits but it is also a known fact a lot of their earnings get sent back to Mexico or wherever and they do use a lot of public services, schools etc. This has been reported ad nauseum on the news and in various magazines. If you dispute this is a problem, YOU should come up with some data.
Further, Ian, no one said ALL Latinos or Muslims or whatever hate Gays, but again, do some reading. The religious background these people have overwhelmingly is anti progressive anything especially on Gay issues. I’ve seen this data reported repeatedly too. Where have you been? Not to mention it has happened in my own community. Anytime something progressive comes up (we just had a human rights ordinance defeated) the Imams band together, collect signatures at the Mosques and whip up fears ad infinitum about trannies in the bathrooms putting our “children” at risk. So I’ve seen it first hand, it is not just reading papers.
Jaroslaw
PS the lawn signs were (what else?) “no special rights for Gays.” Of course the ordinance covered many other things…..but the Gay issue trumped everything.
Jaroslaw
One last thing on #174 I never would advocate REVOKING citizenship – that would be unfair and even cruel. I said very clearly the law should change for birth citizenship. Nowhere do I say this should be retroactive.
And you’re right again Romeo, you did say way back people advocate for things they don’t think through. I said something similar in people are promoting things based on wishes and hopes. Unfortunately, we have to deal with the world as it is, not how we would like it to be.
In a perfect world, there would be no borders, people would freely move from place to place etc. and we can work for this change but until then……..my position is clear.
Ian
According to the CBO(you know, the only source trusted by both Republicans and Democrats) undocumented immigrants contribute significantly more than they get in social services, so instead of watching Fox News and HLN I would suggest doing a little research.
“no one said ALL Latinos or Muslims or whatever hate Gays”
Uhhh, go back and read what Romeo said. okthnxbi
Jaroslaw
Ian – social services? what about use of the public schools and a host of other things? You must have forgotten that I work for the welfare – the books can be cooked any number of ways and definitions can be redone. I can’t put into words exactly but here is a great example. Unemployed persons used to include ALL people looking for work. Reagan changed it to only include people actually receiving unemployment benefits. This kind of nonsense happens all the time.
Here is another – women (citizens and illegals) apply to have Medicaid to get their pregnancy & delivery bills taken care of. Then when child support comes after them, the father mysteriously shows up in the home. So nothing happens to recoup this money. It NEVER shows up on CBO documents or anywhere else. Oh, there should be fraud referrals done, (0n this and MANY MANY other things) but the workers just don’t have time.
In other words, don’t be so naive. And this is only because I work there that I know this. What else goes on that we DON’T know about?
Yes, Romeo said the Latinos in LA “hate us” – it was pretty clear he meant most. If he didn’t, I’ll let him fix that. But since you’re going by the letter of the law, he did say LA Latinos. So that would leave out all the rest of the Latinos in the US right?
Jaroslaw
PS Ian, did you read the rest of what I wrote about my own community’s experiences? You didn’t comment on that.
jonnyboy
This is an irresponsible and divisive post. Despite the claim, buried in the article, that, “Nor are we saying immigration rights should be pushed aside, or delayed, until gays get their protections” that is *exactly* what the headline implies. Shame on Queerty for fanning the flames of bigoted nativism. United, rather than divided, the immigrant rights and LGBTI movements (and as has been noted, LGBT communities include tons of undocumented folks) could accomplish a great deal together, including winning legislation that upholds equality and moves both communities forward together.
Jaroslaw
Jonnyboy – and all the rest of the live & let live folks – I understand what you’re saying. I really do, but we don’t live in a perfect world.
So (A) I assume you believe this thoroughly until your own job is impacted and/or (B) you’ll be donating your whole paycheck after necessities to an illegal immigrant fund
and
(C) this post is and isn’t divisive at the same time. The point that Queerty was trying to make, for the hundredth time, is that we GAY PEOPLE are LESS important than illegal immigrants. Whether or not you agree with anything else here, whether or not there are other consequences or points in this post, do you at least get THAT?
Johnny Angel
I guess it all depends on if you think Americans have squandered their opportunities, are nasty xenophobes, and deserve, because of the majority’s laziness, lack of gratitude for both our Luck and opportunities, and lack of American pride for what we have accomplished in over 200 years. Is it our time to feel what the rest of the world has felt throughout their long histories?
How about our law protecting Americans that don’t seem to be deserving of its protection?
What do we stand for, lazy Americans who only care when their next sitcom and bucket of chicken is arriving, at a time suitable for them, or allowing the laws of Nature to take over? We will be assimilated if only a minority speaks out for our nation.
Gay or straight, People who don’t work, should not eat – Nature’s law. Then we will consider rule of Man’s law. But I dont’ think we have the stomach for where that will lead. Something about an empty stomach being a poor political advisor comes to mind.
Betsy B
This post reminds me why I hate mainstream GWM politics. Just… fuck you, Qweerty.