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Gay Ex-Mormon Kerry Rutz: LDS’ Treatment Of Gays Has Only Become ‘More Harsh, Hateful’

The pressure is extreme to not be anything but heterosexual, starting in childhood. The Mormon church still publishes Boyd K. Packer’s (president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, one of the church’s top leaders [pictured]) speech “To Young Men Only” (General Conference priesthood session, Oct. 2, 1976) wherein he advocates violence against gay people, and the church still reveres, quotes and studies (other speeches and books from leaders who tout homophobia). The Mormon church claims it has altered its stance on gays and lesbians. They have: They’ve become more harsh, hateful and reactionary against us.

—Kerry Rutz, a gay Massachusetts landscaper who split from the LDS Church at age 24, and was forced to sever ties with his family as a result, insists the Mormon Church’s support of reparative therapy practices at Evergreen International and BYU are alive and well, and still harming young people [via]

By:           JD
On:           Mar 17, 2011
Tagged: , , , ,

  • 60 Comments
    • Jeff K.
      Jeff K.

      I simply cannot relate to people who would cut out a family member from their life because of a difference of opinion regarding religion. Maybe it’s because I’m a heathen, but it simply boggles my mind that someone could do that.

      Mar 17, 2011 at 9:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kev C
      Kev C

      The Mormon Church is a dangerous cult. If you are a Mormon, or know a Mormon, please seek help with an Exit Counselor for proper intervention. Many, many people have successfully .. and happily exited the Church of Latter Day Saints.

      Mar 17, 2011 at 10:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Shannon1981
      Shannon1981

      These people are dangerous.

      Mar 17, 2011 at 10:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • WillBFair
      WillBFair

      For decades, mainstream Christianity has considered the LDS as a cult. I always thought it was sour grapes, or that they were just being bigotted. I don’t anymore. I agree. LDS is a vicious cult, totally cut off from the civilizing influences of European ethics and tradition, biblical scholarship, and Enlightenment culture.

      Mar 17, 2011 at 10:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The sane Francis
      The sane Francis

      So sad. But not in any way a surprise, and it’s not just Mormons, but these organized religious cults in general have made us their main target for scorn and hate. Why? Simple, we are a vulnerable minority group and their words still have some sway on the masses. It’s all about power and control and as we continue to get more open, awareness increases, acceptance increases, these fundamentalists will get more and more extreme to stop us. We have to be strong during these times as a community.

      Mar 17, 2011 at 10:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TheRealAdam
      TheRealAdam

      @WillBFair: It’s all a damn cult. ALL of it. Christianity is no different. It’s all psychobabble. Quit trying to condemn Mormonism and prop up Xtianity. It just makes you look silly.

      Mar 17, 2011 at 11:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • WillBFair
      WillBFair

      Sam Harris was hired to drive a wedge between liberal christians and liberal atheists. It’s the old divide and conquer scheme, especially effective on the intellectually weak. He succeeded all too well with gay atheists, who have emotional issues from being oppressed early on by fundamentalists.
      Anyway, Adam, I wasn’t talkign to you. And please don’t tell me what to do. When you’ve learned the basic rules of logic, maybe we can talk. Until then, no.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 12:27 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gregger
      gregger

      Okay, was born to a Catholic Mother and an Episcopal Father, baptised Presbyterian, confirmed Anglican, studied Russian & Greek Orthodoxy, Methodism, Baptist, Gnostic, Unitarian, Church of Religious Science, Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism, and Shi’ite and Sunni Muslim. After all this I found, for myself that it’s all a belief. The key word is belief.

      I don’t buy in to any of this organized religion. I don’t donate to any organized religion. I do not advocate any organized religion.

      Do what works best for you. If it doesn’t work, get the Hell out of there.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 12:54 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Danny
      Danny

      It is a cult, not a religion. If you need to appease any mortal to be part of a “religion”, it is a cult. A religion is between you and your higher power without any humans inbetween.

      You don’t have to have any education to run a cult. And it makes leaders lots of money, which provides them plenty of incentive to maintain their cult.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 1:37 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TheRealAdam
      TheRealAdam

      @WillBFair: Silence, you blind fool. Your tit-for-tat arguments on religion don’t amount to anything other than picking and choosing which load of bullshit you’d rather believe as opposed to another. You are still a slave to religion regardless, and that is your flaw.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 1:55 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Paul F
      Paul F

      Are the leaders of LDS on LSD? Sorry, couldn’t resist. (She Who Must Not Be Encouraged [cassandra] need not respond to my latest sarcastic remark. See, I can keep it under 100 words on religious topics if I really work hard on it.)

      Mar 18, 2011 at 2:18 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Riker
      Riker

      @Jeff K.: Scientology does the same thing. They have a policy called “disconnection” that is used to force members to stick around, lest they lost their entire family and support network. The Co$ claims to have abandoned this policy, but it is a lie. I’ve personally helped people leave the Church who were shunned by everyone they knew because of it.

      I know Scientology isn’t entirely relevant to this post, but its even more of a dangerous cult than LDS.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 3:00 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jeffree
      Jeffree

      @Riker: Actually, Scientology & the LDS have a shared belief that homosexuality is intrisically a disorder. The Mormons aren’t very successful at converting non-believers, but the Hubbardists have a strong track record of recruiting high-profile people. So, I’d say they *are* relevant to the topic at least in terms of being anti-gay brainwashing cults based on some craaazy extra-terrestrial theology!

      Mar 18, 2011 at 3:54 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kueerduck
      Kueerduck

      its curious that mormons claim they are christians but christians never claim the mormons are christians…anyway religion is full of this bigotry of hating homos or insert caffine or whatever.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 4:07 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kev C
      Kev C

      @Kueerduck: Because the LDS Church is a made-up religion loosely based on the Bible. They believe Jesus and Satan are brothers from another planet.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 4:28 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Hhappa
      Hhappa

      @TheRealAdam: Christianity is not monolithic. Don’t be an uneducated fool. Do your homework before oversimplifying.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 8:34 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • justiceontherocks
      justiceontherocks

      @Jeffree: The followers of the angel Moroni have in truth done far too well at proseletizing, especially in the so-called third world countries. And they lead the league in off the wall beliefs: the magic underwear (with patches over the nipples because that’s where sin enters the body most easily), the commandment to wear your temple garments while screwing, baptizing ancestors, and the whole lost spirits merged with new babies thing that is the alleged reason for their high birth rates.

      And you can’t trust them with a dime. Very dangerous cult.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 9:21 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mattybear
      Mattybear

      I had the “privilege” of being in Salt Lake City a couple of years ago. Unfortunately it was during the Mormon annual conference. If you want to see an altered reality and a terrifying glimpse of what a religion controlled country would look like, I suggest you go during this time.

      1. City police patrolling the outside of the mormon temple. Looking for those who don’t fit in, to “help” them find somewhere else to be.
      2. Streets that are suddenly closed down, without warning, because a conference session is finished. A door opens and thousands of mormons come streaming out of some office building filling the street.
      3. Funny, fake white rocks everywhere, that are really speakers broadcasting the ‘prophet’s’ latest speech.

      A local gay man I met there told me that local non-mormon citizens just avoid the entire downtown area during this time. It was interesting, but the more I thought about it the scarier it was. Especially since the police were involved in helping enforce mormon rules.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 9:59 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stenar
      Stenar

      I am a former Mormon, even served as a missionary for 2 years in Norway. While I no longer believe in Mormonism nor religion in general, many of your comments regarding Mormonism are very ignorant.
      First of all, the Mormon church does not teach people to cut out their children from their family for being gay. Some stupid parents do that on their own, but the church teaches that you should continue to love them and not shun them in any way.
      @Mattybear, the police were not enforcing Momon rules during the annual LDS conference. They are only there to control traffic, as 100,000 people come downtown to attend the conference. Those “Funny, fake rocks” that are really speakers are not everywhere. They are on one downtown block owned by the LDS church because there are some people who cannot get into the conference center who listen to the talks while seated on the lawn outside.
      @Justiceontherocks, the symbols on Mormon “magic underwear” (aka garments) are not patches, but embroidered symbols that remind one of covenants one has mad with god in the temple, similar to how orthodox Jews wear clothing that reminds them of religious obligations. Mormons do NOT wear their temple garments while having sex.
      And Mormons do not believe that lost spirits are merged with babies. Where do you even get some of this stuff?
      I don’t have a problem with people attacking the Mormon church over legitimate concerns, such as their actual stance towards gay people or their heavy involvement politically against gay marriage with their front group NOM, but at least get your facts straight.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 10:44 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stenar
      Stenar

      When I accepted that I was gay and left the Mormon church, none of my Mormon family members rejected me. While there are some Mormons who reject their children for being gay, this is the exception, not the rule and it is NOT taught by the church to reject your children. I have lots of gay, former Mormon friends who are still very close to their Mormon family members. I even know some gay Mormons who are still actively involved in the Mormon church, but I think that religion is a bit silly, so that’s not for me.
      Also, my Mormon friends from college still accept me and we’re just as close friends if not more so as we were before I came out to them as gay.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 10:53 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stenar
      Stenar

      While the Mormon church does not believe in gay marriage, they do not believe gay people ought to be harmed. A year ago, at the encouragement of the Mormon church, Salt Lake City passed a non-discrimination ordinance to protect gay people from employment and housing discrimination. Since then 10 other Utah cities have done the same.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 11:05 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • EscapedfromKolob
      EscapedfromKolob

      I’m also a former LDS missionary yada yada and Mormons do, de facto, teach to cut their children off from the family if they are gay, or drink coffee, or name whatever behavior du jour. They are always on the make to become more popular and normal-seeming to the non-members, but this involves the duplicity of withholding important information about the whackiness and cultish nature of their organization and belief system.

      The comments about SLC Temple Square’s weirdness hold truth, and the markings on garments and the temple rituals have their basis in Joseph Smith, the founder’s, obsession with the occult (do your homework, there’s tons of information out there about this.) Mormons are pressured to engage in thought-stopping techniques when outsiders try to tell them about this stuff. This is why they’re typically very defensive and also ignorant of the connections that exist, that they’d know if they were “allowed” to see things in a wider, real world context.

      Mormons have lots of kids because they believe that God is up there knocking boots with Heavenly Mother 24-7 and there are all these spirit babies that need to incarnate into bodies. But that’s not even the most damning of their beliefs. They very loudly and insistently protest they don’t believe in polygamy, but in fact they do believe a man can marry in their temples multiple times to women who they get in a personal harem in the next life, while women can only be married to one man – meaning they believe that polygamy is the way it is up there in Heaven. They just don’t tell you this when they come to teach you about their church because they know that would be a turnoff if they were truly honest with potential converts.

      This whackjob is an creep who embodies they top power structure of the organization – an old bigot who openly advocates for violence against gay people and dangerously leads a cult, whose influence obscures reality, throws science and facts out the window, and whether directly or indirectly makes the LDS parent of a gay child penny wise and pound foolish that they would throw away their own child for nonsense and fairy dust.

      Inexcusable. Don’t defend it.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 11:47 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • EscapedfromKolob
      EscapedfromKolob

      “While the Mormon church does not believe in gay marriage, they do not believe gay people ought to be harmed. A year ago, at the encouragement of the Mormon church, Salt Lake City passed a non-discrimination ordinance to protect gay people from employment and housing discrimination. Since then 10 other Utah cities have done the same.”

      I am originally from the Utah corridor and worked in government – every time a gay rights issue came on the table the Mormons turned out in full force with their hateful ranting and made the proceedings very ugly. Just because Salt Lake passed non discrimination ordinances doesn’t mean Mormons support them. It’s due to the influence of non-LDS that those laws succeeded. Once again, Mormons bandwagoning onto the latest social change (ahem blacks and the priesthood anyone?)

      Mar 18, 2011 at 12:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • the crustybastard
      the crustybastard

      @Stenar:

      Okay, here’s an important Mormon fact: Joseph Smith was not a prophet, but he was a con artist.

      Smith used to con farmers, claiming he could find buried treasure on their land by looking through “seeing stones” he placed in the bottom of his hat.

      He served prison time for perpetrating these frauds — but his time in prison was not wasted. He realized that if he used religion instead of magic to scam people out of their money, that was perfectly legal. TA-DA! God conveniently picked that moment to direct convicted fraud Joseph Smith to some buried treasures, which Smith was able to translate via “seeing stones” he placed in the bottom of his hat.

      Ferchrissakes, this new scam wasn’t even remotely clever. It’s as if Bernie Madoff came out of jail and claimed that God revealed to him a foolproof new investment scheme with guaranteed sky-high returns and some dead-dumb fucking morons believed him and turned over their savings.

      Moreover, the mythology and cosmology Smith manufactured is nothing short of laughably retarded and demonstrably false. Smith was nothing more than the L. Ron Hubbard of his day. Like Scientology, Mormonism is just such a painfully transparent fraud that I find it frankly astonishing that anyone at all could be gullible enough to buy it.

      It speaks very poorly of those who do.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 12:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @Stenar: said…


      I am a former Mormon, even served as a missionary for 2 years in Norway. While I no longer believe in Mormonism nor religion in general, many of your comments regarding Mormonism are very ignorant.
      First of all, the Mormon church does not teach people to cut out their children from their family for being gay. Some stupid parents do that on their own, but the church teaches that you should continue to love them and not shun them in any way.

      That is a lie, my ex Mormon friend’s parents were all councilled by their church that their children were rotten on the inside now and if they didn’t cut them off they would infect their siblings, every single one of them had this happen to them even though some lived in Texas, some in Idaho, and some in Utah…how funny that you claim the church doesn’t do that, yet friends of mine in three states had the exact same response from the church.

      ——–

      No. 23 · EscapedfromKolob said….
      “While the Mormon church does not believe in gay marriage, they do not believe gay people ought to be harmed. A year ago, at the encouragement of the Mormon church, Salt Lake City passed a non-discrimination ordinance to protect gay people from employment and housing discrimination. Since then 10 other Utah cities have done the same.”
      ===

      They only encouraged that, because they were getting bad P.R. after Prop 8 and were scrambling, the agreement was that Salt Lake city would NOT go for a more sweepeing gay rights bill and the church would back this one in return for not pushing any new gay rights bills through in the future. It was not the goodness of their heart that caused this. Additionally, they are still allowed to discriminate against gays in their buildings by claiming that since they rent to many of their employees, they are chuch functionary buildings.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 12:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • EscapedfromKolob
      EscapedfromKolob

      @Cam: Yes, I agree with you. I was just quoting Stenar’s post in that portion of mine.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 12:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • EscapedfromKolob
      EscapedfromKolob

      Not only did Packer (pictured above) openly and directly advocate physical battery of gay people, the Mormon church has

      1) counseled countless gay men and lesbians to marry unwitting straight partners and have kids with them, which lie destroyed the lives of those individuals and their families;

      2) demands that gay and lesbian people remain in an unnatural state of celibacy their whole lives;

      3) has an ass-backwards LDS “social services” that polices the sexual activity of students at their college (BYU), disciplines them through a gestapo style tattle-tale system, and pressures gay people to endure draconion “reparative therapy” techniques such as cold baths and electrical shocks to their testicles;

      4) encourages dependency in all aspects of their members’ lives on the church, including marrying in the church and taking employment with other church members, to isolate and pressure conformity at the risk of losing one’s family and job, etc;

      5) has high rates of suicide and homelessness for Mormon gay and lesbian teens;

      6) fearmongers an “besieged” minset among its members, spreading lies and propaganda against gay people;

      and they know that the people who are most able to see beyond the bubble of the cult and name the monster for what it is are gays, women, intellectuals – exactly the people Packer and Mormon leadership most vocally and directly marginalize – because these are the people who are least invested in the power hierarchy and have the information and courage to expose light on its falsity and abuses.

      How is this not violence?

      Mar 18, 2011 at 1:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @EscapedfromKolob:

      Sorry! My misread!

      Mar 18, 2011 at 1:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stenar
      Stenar

      I never said Joseph Smith wasn’t a con artist. And I’m not defending Mormonism per se. But if you’re going to attack Mormonism, at least attack it for the things it actually does do and believe, not made up shit.

      In 1992, the Church issued a statement to Church leaders saying:
      “If a person with homosexual problems chooses not to change, family members may have difficulty maintaining feelings of love and acceptance toward the person. Encourage them to continue loving the person and hoping that he or she may repent.”

      Now, I don’t believe gay people have anything to repent of, but the church is not teaching there to shun their gay children.

      “That is to say we continue to open our homes and our hearts and our arms to our children, but that need not be with approval of their lifestyle. Neither does it mean we need to be constantly telling them that their lifestyle is inappropriate.” -Elder Oaks

      “It is equally important that we be loving and kind to members of our own faith, regardless of their level of commitment or activity. The Savior has made it clear that we are not to judge each other.” -Elder Quentin L. Cook

      “While we are taught to love and treat everyone with kindness, the Church puts particular weight on the way we treat our family members, including those who are attracted to the same sex. In order to enter into the temple, a member must first answer this question:
      ‘Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?’
      If there is anything that is not in harmony with the teachings, they are not worthy to hold a temple recommend.” -Elder Wickman

      “My son, if you choose to deliberately engage in this kind of behavior, you’re still my son.” -Elder Wickman

      Mar 18, 2011 at 3:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stenar
      Stenar

      @EscapedfromKolob: The Mormon temple garments markings are based on freemasonry beliefs. In fact, the entire Mormon temple ritual is based on Masonic rituals.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_garment

      The V-shaped symbol on the left breast is referred to as “The Compass,” while the reverse-L-shaped symbol on the right breast is referred to as “The Square.” The “Square” represents “the justice and fairness of our Heavenly Father, that we will receive all the good that is coming to us or all that we earn, on a square deal,” and the “Compass” represents “the North Star”. In addition to the Square and Compass, the other symbols are described as follows: the navel mark represents “strength in the navel and marrow in the bones”; and the knee mark represents “that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ”.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 4:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stenar
      Stenar

      @the crustybastard: While Joseph Smith probably was a con artist, he never actually served any prison time for being a money digger or gold digger.

      He was only in jail one time in his life, just before he was killed by an angry mob. He had led the church to settle in Nauvoo, IL, where they had created a city of 50,000 people in the 1830s. Joseph Smith had started marrying multiple wives, but not yet made it public knowledge. A local newspaper, which only published one issue, the Nauvoo Expositor, was going to expose him for being a polygamist. After two days of consultation, Smith and the Nauvoo city council voted on June 10, 1844 to declare the paper a public nuisance, and ordered the paper’s printing press destroyed. The town marshal carried out the order that evening. He was later arrested and imprisoned for destroying the newspaper and while in jail, an angry mob of nearby non-Mormon vigilantes stormed the jail and shot him dead.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauvoo_Expositor

      Mar 18, 2011 at 4:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stenar
      Stenar

      @EscapedfromKolob:

      “1) counseled countless gay men and lesbians to marry unwitting straight partners and have kids with them, which lie destroyed the lives of those individuals and their families;”

      The Mormon church USED to counsel gay men to get married, as they thought marriage would cure them of their feelings, but the church stopped doing that in the 1980s as they realized it didn’t “cure” gay people and only caused more heartache.

      “3)… pressures gay people to endure draconion “reparative therapy” techniques such as cold baths and electrical shocks to their testicles;”

      A Mormon professor at BYU experimented with various forms of reparative therapy briefly in the 1970s, but that has long since been abandoned.

      “4) encourages dependency in all aspects of their members’ lives on the church, including marrying in the church and taking employment with other church members, to isolate and pressure conformity at the risk of losing one’s family and job, etc;”

      The church does not encourage people to take employment with other church members in order to isolate them and pressure conformity.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 4:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TheRealAdam
      TheRealAdam

      @Stenar: Everything you’ve written is a lie. You are absolutely full of shit.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 5:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stenar
      Stenar

      @TheRealAdam: Sorry, but nothing I’ve said is a lie.

      By the way, I agree completely with this statement of yours: “Your tit-for-tat arguments on religion don’t amount to anything other than picking and choosing which load of bullshit you’d rather believe as opposed to another. You are still a slave to religion regardless, and that is your flaw.”

      I believe all religion should be crushed. I just don’t think it’s useful to make up lies about religion, but dislike them for what they actually do believe and their real actions, not made up ones.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 5:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • the crustybastard
      the crustybastard

      @Stenar: Joseph Smith…never actually served any prison time for being a money digger or gold digger. He was only in jail one time in his life, just before he was killed by an angry mob.”

      Well, that is the position of the Mormon church, because they simply dismiss any evidence to the contrary. There is documentary evidence Smith was tried and convicted in 1826 and 1830 on charges relating to his grift. In the existing trial transcripts, Smith is referred to as “the prisoner.”

      Before Westerners rediscovered how to read Egyptian hieroglyphs, Joseph Smith claimed the power to “translate” them. Having examined some antiquities on tour, Smith insisted one “one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, another the writings of Joseph of Egypt.” He didn’t complete his “translation” of the latter, but his “translation” of the former is now Mormon scripture.

      Naturally the papyri were ordinary Egyptian funeral texts, and Smith was of course utterly full of shit.

      All this said, you can only allow that Smith “probably” was a con artist?

      LOL.

      Anyway, my point is there’s scarcely a distinction between things Mormons “actually do and believe,” and “made up shit.”

      Mar 18, 2011 at 5:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TheRealAdam
      TheRealAdam

      @Stenar: It is a lie in that it is a distortion. You are trying to claim that these things are not advocated and practiced by Mormons today but the reality points to something completely different.

      You cannot claim any of that with absolute certainty. The personal anecdotes of others should reveal that to you.

      @Hhappa: As it relates to my comment, it doesn’t have to be.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 6:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stenar
      Stenar

      I believe it’s easier to counteract the negative affects of religion if you act against their actual beliefs and not made up ones. For example, if you try to talk to a Mormon about their beliefs in order to try and change them, it won’t help to come at them with made up things which are demonstrably not true. They’ll just discount anything you have to say and think you’re a crazy bigot.
      I’ve been successful talking to several Mormon friends by saying look this is what is wrong with the church’s teaching regarding gay people and having them say, “You’re right, I don’t agree with the way the church treats gay people” and several of them have left the Mormon church because of it.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 6:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • EscapedfromKolob
      EscapedfromKolob

      Stenar, you’ve had too much Mormon cuckoo punch. Put down the ladle and go outside and take a brisk walk. It will clear your head.

      Unfortunately, because it is a cult, when people leave Mormonism it takes a long time before they begin to orient themselves to be able to look at the history of that movement through a non-cult lens. They don’t understand life outside the bubble, so they downplay the distinctions.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 6:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stenar
      Stenar

      @TheRealAdam:
      @Stenar: It is a lie in that it is a distortion. You are trying to claim that these things are not advocated and practiced by Mormons today but the reality points to something completely different.
      You cannot claim any of that with absolute certainty. The personal anecdotes of others should reveal that to you.
      =================

      I can claim with absolute certainty what the LDS church teaches. It’s documented in thousands of places: church handbooks, church educational manuals, church magazines, church talks at conference which are broadcast on TV and available on DVD and also transcribed and printed in church magazines. It’s all open for anyone who is interested to know what the church ACTUALLY teaches.
      Sure, there are some members who go against what the church teaches and kick their children out, etc., but that is NOT what the church teaches.
      The only things that are not public are what takes place inside the Mormon temple during the “endowment” and marriage ceremonies, which Mormons hold to be sacred. But several Members have left the church and reported on exactly everything that goes on inside a Mormon temple, which is readily available on the internet.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 6:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stenar
      Stenar

      @EscapedfromKolob: Stenar, you’ve had too much Mormon cuckoo punch. Put down the ladle and go outside and take a brisk walk. It will clear your head.
      Unfortunately, because it is a cult, when people leave Mormonism it takes a long time before they begin to orient themselves to be able to look at the history of that movement through a non-cult lens. They don’t understand life outside the bubble, so they downplay the distinctions.
      ===================

      Seriously, you’re just bitter and you have made up lies about the church based on your bitterness over being rejected. Either you’re lying or your beliefs are based on hearsay that you’ve heard from others, not actual truths regarding the Mormon church.

      I have no problem looking at the history of the “movement.” And I understand life outside Mormonism just fine. I left the church over 13 years ago. Since then, I’ve lived all over the world and experienced all sorts of worldviews. I lived in NYC for 2 years, lived in Australia for nearly 2 years, lived in Chicago, and Portland, OR, among other places.

      As far as my political beliefs, I’m a Socialist, which is about as far as you can get ideologically from Mormon culture. Part of my influence in becoming a Socialist was from living in Norway for 2 years as a Mormon missionary and seeing social democracy in action. And partly influenced by my degree in International Relations from the University of Utah (more than 50% of students at the University of Utah are non-Mormons and almost ALL professors are non-Mormon at this state university, despite it being in SLC).

      I personally cannot stand the Mormon church. I know Joseph Smith was involved in folk magic/occult. I know he was not a prophet. I cannot stand the Mormon church in any way, shape or form, but as I’ve said multiple times, it’s easier to counteract the Mormon church and it’s teachings if you’re fighting against what they really do believe (which is bad enough that you don’t have to make up things) and not made up lies. Hate the church for what it really does believe and practice, not made up stuff.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 6:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @Stenar: said. ”
      Sure, there are some members who go against what the church teaches and kick their children out, etc., but that is NOT what the church teaches.”
      ______________________-

      You are a liar. This very article points out that PAckers published words giving a missionary the right to beat up his mission partner if it turns out he is gay are still handed out to missionaries.

      The church does not councel against kicking gay children out, again, you are a liar, but then again, the church has always lied. They now try to claim that Polygomy was rarely practiced and only when a wife’s husband died on the trip out to Utah. They of course leave out that Joseph smith had already married multiple women before that time, including a 14 year old girl.

      They try to claim that blacks were allowed “Membership” in the church before 1980. They leave out the fact that yes, if pressed, they would allow a black person to tith their income but they wouldn’t allow them to hold the full membership, which is how a Mormon is allowed into heaven. Again another lie.

      The Mormon church origionally said that they didn’t have anything to do in an organized fasion with the Prop 8 fight in Ca. But then the famous memo of understanding between them and the Catholic church was exposed showing that they had agreed years before to engage in political battles against gay rights.

      So you keep on claiming that the church is a happy hand holding circle of love. Your problem is, there are a few too many ex-mo’s out here who can call B.S. on your claims.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 7:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brandon Price
      Brandon Price

      @Stenar
      My last roommate served in Norway! I served in Puerto Rico. Ha! Fun times meeting someone else who has LDS ties.

      My family has never rejected me, but embraced me for who I am, and these are really true believers of the LDS faith. I am proud of how Christ-like my Mormon relatives are, especially when considering the majority of members I know. I have experienced a lot of hate, by LDS adherents but that is cause I live in Utah. I find most religions have a lot of hateful members in the pews. Live and let live, hopefully we all will get better at that.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 7:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stenar
      Stenar

      @Cam: You are a liar. This very article points out that PAckers published words giving a missionary the right to beat up his mission partner if it turns out he is gay are still handed out to missionaries.
      ______________________-
      I am not lying. The Mormon church does NOT tell families to kick out their gay children. The published words you are referring to are not handed out to missionaries. They were part of a talk Packer gave at the annual LDS conference in 1976 and were published in a pamphlet, which is long since out of print. It was never given to me when I went on a mission in 1989. While I don’t agree with what Packer said in that talk, he didn’t just wholesale give people permission to beat up their mission companions just for being gay. He told them to protect themselves if they had unwanted sexual advances from a gay person. These are his exact words:
      ‘There are some men who entice young men to join them in these immoral acts. If you are ever approached to participate in anything like that, it is time to vigorously resist. While I was in a mission on one occasion, a missionary said he had something to confess. I was very worried because he just could not get himself to tell me what he had done. After patient encouragement he finally blurted out, “I hit my companion.” ‘Oh, is that all,’ I said in great relief. ‘But I floored him,’ he said. After learning a little more, my response was ‘Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn’t be well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way.’ I am not recommending that course to you, but I am not omitting it. You must protect yourself.”
      Cam said: They now try to claim that Polygomy was rarely practiced and only when a wife’s husband died on the trip out to Utah. They of course leave out that Joseph smith had already married multiple women before that time, including a 14 year old girl.
      ______________________-
      Your claim is basically true. Historic records show 2% of Mormons practiced polygamy before it was banned in 1890. My own fourth-great-grandfather had four wives. Joseph Smith hid his own practice of polygamy even from his own first wife! And yes, he did marry a 14 yo girl in the 1830s.
      Cam said: They try to claim that blacks were allowed “Membership” in the church before 1980. They leave out the fact that yes, if pressed, they would allow a black person to tith their income but they wouldn’t allow them to hold the full membership, which is how a Mormon is allowed into heaven. Again another lie.
      ______________________-
      It was 1978 when the LDS church changed and gave black people the priesthood. Black people had always been allowed to be members of the church, but could not hold the priesthood nor go to the LDS temple. This is true.
      Cam said: The Mormon church origionally said that they didn’t have anything to do in an organized fashion with the Prop 8 fight in Ca. But then the famous memo of understanding between them and the Catholic church was exposed showing that they had agreed years before to engage in political battles against gay rights.
      ______________________-
      It is true that the LDS church was heavily involved in the fight on Prop 8. They are the ones who were instrumental in everything involved in Prop 8. They also created the National Organization for Marriage, which they claim not to be directly involved in.
      Cam said: So you keep on claiming that the church is a happy hand holding circle of love. Your problem is, there are a few too many ex-mo’s out here who can call B.S. on your claims.
      ______________________-
      I’ve never once said the “church is a happy hand holding circle of love.” I merely said the Mormon church does NOT teach their members to kick out their gay family members, nor do they kick them out for smoking, or drinking alcohol or coffee, as someone else said. My oldest sister basically stopped going to church when she was 14. She was heavily involved in drinking and smoking pot. My parents never rejected her. She was always accepted as a member of our family and loved by my parents. When I came out, my parents never rejected me. When someone asked my father what he would say if I brought home a boyfriend, he said, “I’d ask him [the boyfriend] if he likes the Utah Jazz,” as my father was very obsessed with sports.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 8:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stenar
      Stenar

      @EscapedfromKolob: Stenar, you’ve had too much Mormon cuckoo punch. Put down the ladle and go outside and take a brisk walk. It will clear your head.
      Unfortunately, because it is a cult, when people leave Mormonism it takes a long time before they begin to orient themselves to be able to look at the history of that movement through a non-cult lens. They don’t understand life outside the bubble, so they downplay the distinctions.
      ===================
      Seriously, you’re just bitter and you have made up lies about the church based on your bitterness over being rejected. Either you’re lying or your beliefs are based on hearsay that you’ve heard from others, not actual truths regarding the Mormon church.
      I have no problem looking at the history of the “movement.” And I understand life outside Mormonism just fine. I left the church over 13 years ago. Since then, I’ve lived all over the world and experienced all sorts of worldviews. I lived in NYC for 2 years, lived in Australia for nearly 2 years, lived in Chicago, and Portland, OR, among other places.
      As far as my political beliefs, I’m a Socialist, which is about as far as you can get ideologically from Mormon culture. Part of my influence in becoming a Socialist was from living in Norway for 2 years as a Mormon missionary and seeing social democracy in action. And partly influenced by my degree in International Relations from the University of Utah (more than 50% of students at the University of Utah are non-Mormons and almost ALL professors are non-Mormon at this state university, despite it being in SLC).
      I personally cannot stand the Mormon church. I know Joseph Smith was involved in folk magic/occult. I know he was not a prophet. I cannot stand the Mormon church in any way, shape or form, but as I’ve said multiple times, it’s easier to counteract the Mormon church and it’s teachings if you’re fighting against what they really do believe (which is bad enough that you don’t have to make up things) and not made up lies. Hate the church for what it really does believe and practice, not made up stuff.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 8:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • EscapedfromKolob
      EscapedfromKolob

      Mormons pose as non-Mormons (or in this case, a former Mormon) to quash dissension and push their beliefs online. All my comments were flagged for moderation by another user (I wonder who?)

      Snake.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 8:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stenar
      Stenar

      Escaped, you’re such a weirdo. I assure you, I’m not a Mormon poser. A Mormon would never come on here and say, as I have said, that I cannot stand Mormonism and believe all religion ought to be destroyed. I just take exception with people saying the Mormon church teaches people to kick out their gay children as it DOES NOT teach that.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 8:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stenar
      Stenar

      Obviously, the moderators of this website agreed with whoever flagged your comments, because they removed them. When comments are flagged, they are not automatically removed, but only after they have been reviewed by the moderator.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 8:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stenar
      Stenar

      @Brandon Price: Hi Brandon! ;) How was Puerto Rico? Probably a lot nicer than cold Norway in the winter. Norway is pretty glorious in the summer, though. :)

      Mar 18, 2011 at 8:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kev C
      Kev C

      I just don’t see why anyone would want to be in such a demanding and unfulfilling religion such as Mormonism. I’m glad the LDS doesn’t demand human sacrifices, but that’s not really a compliment.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 8:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stenar
      Stenar

      @Kev C said: I just don’t see why anyone would want to be in such a demanding and unfulfilling religion such as Mormonism. I’m glad the LDS doesn’t demand human sacrifices, but that’s not really a compliment.
      ===============
      Some people do feel fulfilled by Mormonism, which is why they’re still there. There were some things I enjoyed about the Mormon church, however, I could not tolerate their actions towards gay people and fighting against gay rights, which is one of the reasons that I left.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 8:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • justiceontherocks
      justiceontherocks

      Mormons are Christians in the same way Moslems are. Both think someone came along after Jesus and changed the deal.

      Mar 18, 2011 at 9:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B
      B

      No. 41 · justiceontherocks wrote, “Mormons are Christians in the same way Moslems are. Both think someone came along after Jesus and changed the deal.”

      Isn’t that what Christians claim Jesus did regarding the laws attributed to Moses?

      Hint -religious believes evolving in such ways are hardly uncommon. You can even find analogs of “The Holy Trinity” in Hinduism (the reason some Hindu gods have multiple heads is that people drew them differently and when travel and communication got easier, they resolved the conflicting representation by using all of them in the same image, so nobody would feel left out. http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/hindu-god.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2007/06/&usg=__–takf4b61ub-c6xup8MKMIAVao=&h=345&w=321&sz=27&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=9asK4drWTbppJM:&tbnh=188&tbnw=175&ei=0BqETfj4MIWmsQOZ5PH4AQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3DHindu%2Bgods%2Bmultiple%2Bheads%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dubuntu%26sa%3DN%26channel%3Dfs%26biw%3D1119%26bih%3D838%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C280&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=423&vpy=324&dur=1124&hovh=233&hovw=217&tx=60&ty=258&oei=-RmETZGTNYTAsAOVhsH0AQ&page=1&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:18,s:0&biw=1119&bih=838

      The early Christians had beliefs all over the map, so when they unified them (a Roman emperor insisted for it to be a viable state religion), they came up with the Trinity so nobody would feel left out. (“See, our guy is in there.”)

      Mar 18, 2011 at 10:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kev C
      Kev C

      @B: The priest writers of the OT did something similar (assimilation of older gods) claiming that Abraham’s god, El Shaddai, was Yahweh but he had a different name back then. Elohim? El Elyon? Yeah, same guy.

      El is the semite word for God, but also was the patriarch god of the canaanite pantheon of gods. El was the father of Yahweh.

      El Shaddai can be translated as God Almighty, as in God of the (mighty) Mountain, but the word Shad means breast. God the Sufficient One, or God of the large breasts or udders. Probably a female god.

      Mar 19, 2011 at 12:58 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stenar
      Stenar

      @Kev C: “Elohim” refers to multiple gods, is not the name of one specific god.

      Mar 19, 2011 at 1:14 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kev C
      Kev C

      @Stenar: That’s right, it’s plural, and one of the the names of the singular God of the OT.

      Because yeah, a monotheistic God needs lots of names to confuse people. God started using the royal “We” after he transitioned from female god to male.

      Mar 19, 2011 at 1:45 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • R.D.P.
      R.D.P.

      Despite the inevitable flames that are bound to come my way, but I feel the need to bear my testimony (yipes, here we go…)

      I’m gay. Not on the fence about it, haven’t been since I was 13 when I realized that I didn’t want to BE these guys in my school, I wanted to be WITH them.

      I grew up in a loosely Christian househould, as in ‘God is love, and we are how we are.’ I came out to my mom at 15. My dad a few months later. And to them, it wasn’t a big deal. To this day we all still have a great relationship with them. I was really f@#$ing lucky to have the parents that I have.

      Growing up in Utah from about age ten up, ironically I had never had a missionary knock on my door. Last year, I had my first visitors, three sister-missionaries (there is only supposed to be two, but one of them was always without a companion so I always had the three of them) came a-knockin’.

      One of the first questions; How does your church feel about homosexuals?

      They said that they didn’t feel they had the right answers to that question and set up an appointment with the bishop in the ward for my block. He said ‘so the sisters said that you have a question for me?’

      I told him that I was gay. I was waiting for the disgust, or anger, or shock at the very least, and a small part of me wanted to see it just for the laugh. But he shrugged.

      ‘So?’ I thought he was being really funny, or tactical.

      ‘So what are the church’s feelings on gays being able to join, and go to temple, and serve missions?’

      His answer was that the church has no objection to gays, just the act of sexual intercourse with the same gender. And how could I blame them? If they were going to devout their lives and culture to the bible, throwing out common sense and humanitarianism completely, then of course they were going to give promiscuous gays the stink-eye.

      The printed speech he’d given me to read wasn’t President Packer’s talk, but President Hinckley’s talk in the mid 90′s. He encourages families to embrace their children, friends, and neighbors struggling with same-sex attraction.

      What I’ve learned is that it’s not exactly the church itself that denounce and cast out gays, but the people so caught up in the Mormon culter instead of the gospel (and yes, it is a culture. My god, these people go overboard sometimes!)

      Having already taken an oath of celibacy about a year prior to this I sat and listened to the missionaries’ talks weekly. They’d cleared up many, many rumors and myths about the church (since all I had to go on was what South Park had to say about it.)

      Since joining my ward, I made it clear that I was gay. And I’ve met nothing but support and kindness. That’s why I joined the church; everyone I’ve come into contact with has only been supportive. One day I’ll meet a nice guy and build a family life. When that day comes, I’ll leave the church. It’s not something I’m dreading or looking forward to, it’s just something that will happen. But I don’t blame the people.

      So, like everything else in the natural world, there are happy people and callous people in the church. There are callous people in the gay community as well. Life is about moving past petty hate speech, realizing that we have no control over the human rights of a populace in areas like marriage, adoption, and so on, and helping our fellow man grow and prosper.

      I bear my testimony here that I know the church is a good place for everyone who wants to help others in need. I joined because they put forth so much money to helping out with relief efforts. Now, for example, we’re putting together so much to help out Japan, and the missionaries that were pulled out are only visiting a short time and are going right back to help out. I bear my testimony that, although the music may have no soul and some individuals have so much personal growing to do, the Mormon church isn’t this evil shadow lurking over the gay community.

      I’ve embraced the church, and that’s just my decision. I’m all for those who embrace their right to believe in Buddha, or Poseidon, or Pokemon, or nothing at all. I’m pro-choice, I’m all for gay rights, human rights in general, and yet I still practice the gospel in my life because it works for me.

      I’m gay, I’m a Mormon convert, and I’m happy. Whatever you believe or fight for, don’t worry about bashing others, just worry about nurturing the happiness of others and find your own well-being.

      Mar 19, 2011 at 7:48 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • justiceontherocks
      justiceontherocks

      @B: What does that have to do with my point? Just like all your posts, you think it’s more important to appear intelligent than to comment on the topic.

      @R.D.P.: I’ll quit bashing the followers of Moroni the minute they quit bashing me. Deal?

      Mar 19, 2011 at 9:36 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mattybear
      Mattybear

      @Stenar:
      Ah, so I imagined seeing the rocks……my bad. I really don’t appreciate being called a liar, especially since I saw them with my own eyes. I remember them because, as someone who is interested in geology, the rocks looked out of place. Maybe its not the common practice most years, but when I went, the rocks were all over.

      Also my partner and I were stopped more than once by the police. City police. I used the street closing as an example, but its not the only one. Also in most cities, police don’t shut down major busy streets without any warning. At least if they are competent. Also there was plenty of side walk that could have been used. I have been to events in other cities and in those cases they at least have signs that read “Be prepared for lane closers” or something like that….not police walking out into traffic with signs and road blocks.

      And BTW, thanks for the rosy picture of the church you are trying to paint. Are they going to issue apologies to the gay couples who have been arrested for showing each other affection on temple grounds now? Let me know,

      Mar 19, 2011 at 10:40 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stenar
      Stenar

      @Mattybear: Reading comprehension isn’t one of your strong points, is it? I said there were rocks with speakers. I just said they weren’t “everywhere,” which you claimed. They’re only on ONE downtown block.

      In every major city, police shut down streets for public events that might need to temporarily block an intersection. Have you ever been to Gay Pride in WeHo or NYC? The police shut down the streets all along those routes as the parade goes by. It happens all the time in every city, not just SLC.

      I never said that everything was rosy with the church. Again your lack of reading comprehension shows. I have said many times there are many problems with the LDS church and I think people should respond to the legitimate problems, NOT MADE UP SHIT.

      Mar 19, 2011 at 6:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Scott Amundsen
      Scott Amundsen

      I remember when the film LATTER DAYS came out ten years ago the LDS Church screamed bloody murder over the depiction of the way LGBTs are treated by the Church. It’s been ten years since that movie premiered and apparently things have only gotten worse.

      Feb 28, 2013 at 5:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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