In 1901, near the start of his presidency, President Theodore Roosevelt invited Booker T. Washington to dine at the White House, causing a Southern, if not national, outcry. The Memphis Scimitar called it “the most damnable outrage which has ever been perpetrated by any citizen of the United States.” Sound eerily familiar? Today, Barack Obama, the beneficiary, and temperamentally similar descendant of Booker Washington has found himself in Roosevelt’s role by selecting Rev. Rick Warren to officiate at his inauguration. His defense is that his decision is based on a grand sentiment of inclusiveness. But if history is any indicator, Obama’s motives are purely political. What should we do about it?
It may seem strange to say that Booker T. Washington and Rick Warren have a lot in common, but in terms of being political assets to a President, they could be brothers. In 1895, Washington offered White America a compromise in what’s now called his “Atlanta Address”: So long as whites offered blacks educational and economic opportunities, blacks wouldn’t engage in civil unrest. The speech made him into one of the most powerful politicians in the South, despite black leaders like W.E.B DuBois derisively calling him “The Great Accommodator.”
Like Washington, Rev. Warren seeks to bridge the gap between his own evangelical constituency and mainstream America and he’s been able to achieve success so far by downplaying much of the social culture war issues that dominate evangelical orthodoxy. Yes, Warren’s compared homosexuality to bestiality and claims that Jews are damned to hell, but he does so only when cornered on the issue. He’s also said that divorce is a bigger threat to straight marriage than gay marriage and his biggest theological work, The Purpose Driven Life, is far more focused on marrying Americans’ obsession with self-improvement to Christianity than it is infecting its readers with any of the standard social conservative bedbugs that evangelicals usually rely on. Like Washington, Warren is willing to drop stridency to gain mainstream acceptance.
For his part, Roosevelt invited Washington to the White House, it seems, partly out of curiosity about the man. Like the president-elect, Roosevelt had a scholar’s mind and a tendency to view an issue or person from contradictory perspectives. And like Obama, Roosevelt was a master politician. His decision to invite Washington ultimately boiled down to politics. University of Texas- Austin professor H.W. Brands writes:
“Roosevelt’s invitation to Washington to dine at the White House had little to do with Washington’s race per se, but everything to do with Washington’s role as a political boss of Southern Republicans who happened to be black.
Likewise, the outrage expressed by Southern editors and spokesmen over Roosevelt’s alleged affront to the South, while couched in the language of race, was really about political power. “White men of the South, how do you like it?” fulminated the New Orleans Times-Democrat. “White women of the South, how do you like it?”
The Richmond Times frothed over the implications of the honor Roosevelt had bestowed on Washington: “It means that the president is willing that Negroes shall mingle freely with whites in the social circle — that white women may receive attentions from negro men; it means that there is no racial reason in his opinion why whites and blacks may not marry and intermarry, why the Anglo-Saxon may not mix negro blood with his blood.
The vehemence of the Southern response gave the game away. Booker Washington had explicitly forsworn any claim to social equality, let alone the right for blacks to marry whites.
What the Southern foamers, political conservatives to a man, feared was that Washington might help the dangerously progressive Roosevelt get elected in his own right. When he did precisely that — Roosevelt fended off the conservatives at the 1904 convention and was returned to office overwhelmingly — they foamed the more.”
The parallels here are pretty fascinating, even if the players are all scrambled. Obama’s decision to invite Warren to his inauguration is also a purely political one, and also one aimed to win over conservatives, even though the President-Elect is marginally a liberal. Like Washington, Warren is the most palatable and public power of a group who are big enough to sway elections, but not yet big enough to hold a seat at the table. Obama’s clearly interested in creating a new dominant majority, not just for this election cycle, but decades into the future and winning over slightly more moderate evangelicals would go a long way to achieving that goal.
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But there are stark differences between Warren and Washington as well. The civil actions that had whites so terrified in 1895 were strikes, demonstrations and protests– the sorts of things the gay community is engaging in today. The evangelical community is far more extreme in its views. Warren’s comparisons of gays and lesbians love to bestiality and pedophilia are ripped from the same violence-inciting, dehumanizing rhetoric employed by the Taliban and Hamas. The evangelical belief that they are a persecuted minority is not born out by fact. It is the people whose rights they work to deny who are the target of attacks, death threats, beatings and murders, not them. Sure, Obama’s willing to meet with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, but it’s doubtful he’d invite him to officiate his inauguration.
There’s a good case to be made for Obama inviting Warren (it will make it very hard for evangelicals to criticize Obama, for one), but it’s an argument based purely on political expediency. Roosevelt’s genius was that his political decision to invite Washington was also a moral decision. It reflected the larger narrative of Roosevelt’s career as a reformer and champion of the every man. Ultimately, Roosevelt did little for black people and after the bad press from the dinner, Washington and Roosevelt never formally spent private time together again, but it was not out of character for him to invite a black man to the White House. Obama’s decision to invite Rev. Warren is.
One of the reasons that Obama won the election over his Democratic rivals was a perception that at long last we had a candidate on the Left willing to talk about issues in moral terms and not just tactics. In Obama’s world, healthcare is a right, the economy a public trust, the education of our children a moral imperative, the dissolution of racial and gender barriers promised by the founding documents of the nation. Yet, when it comes to marriage equality, the defining civil rights issue of our time, Obama falls back on tactics. He believes that civil unions are the most politically expedient way to get gays and lesbians civil rights and despite many statements that seem to indicate that the President-elect feels that gay marriage is compatible with Christianity, telling Christians who asked that, “I would just refer them to the Sermon on the Mount, which I think is, in my mind, for my faith, more central than an obscure passage in Romans.”
We know Obama is busy preparing to take over the country come January, but the fact that he selected a major Prop. 8 supporter while remaining silent as thousands of civil rights advocates marched and demonstrated makes you wonder if Obama’s lofty rhetoric and impassioned sense of justice only applies to those things which personally effect Obama. His strength as an orator and politician is intimately tied to his ability to see things through the lens of his own personal history, but when it comes to listening to the gay community, Obama’s been largely tone deaf and indifferent.
There are a lot of calls to action being made to Obama by the gay community right now. Some are calling for Obama to disinvite Warren. Mark Segal, publisher of Philadelphia Gay News suggests that Obama include a gay pastor in the ceremony and/or have the President stop by an LGBT inaugural ball. Those who haven’t written off Obama are waiting to see whether he will do what his agenda says he will do, most notably that he will repeal DOMA and Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell and enact ENDA and the Matthew Shepard Act. If he does these things and does them expediently, the people angry at Obama now over Warren will forgive him, but that doesn’t mean their anger isn’t justified.
If we would ask one thing of Obama it would be that he would start speaking about marriage equality in moral terms. Denying a minority their civil rights to appeal the qualms of the majority was wrong in 1895 and it’s wrong in 2008. Obama should say so.
In later life, Booker T. Washington found himself at odds with the newly created NAACP, which was unafraid to speak loudly and forcefully for civil rights. Likewise, the gay community is abandoning the appeasement tactics of old in exchange for a direct, forceful argument that “separate but equal” is wrong, no matter how sweetly it is worded by folks like Rev. Warren. Obama asks us to disagree without being disagreeable. That’s hogwash. Discriminating against gays and lesbians is wrong and it’s a moral outrage. Obama may be a master politician, but these newbie gay activists aren’t idiots, either.
Far from shooting themselves in the foot, the louder and more visibly gays and lesbians make the argument that discrimination is wrong and that find it intolerable, oppressive and insulting, the more we help our fellow citizens examine the issue more closely. Shooting ourselves in the foot? Have you turned on the television this week? Rev. Warren and his beliefs are being discussed on every cable news program, on the nightly local news. Having lost every single time our rights have come up to a vote, gays and lesbians have nothing to lose in making our case vocally and often.
Booker T. Washington offered a compromise in 1895 and we’ll offer Obama a compromise in 2008.
Mr. Obama, want us to be less disagreeable? Want to see an end to protests? We’ll stop, just as soon as the fundamental humanity of our love is acknowledged, in all 50 states, through marriage equality for all, protection of LGBT people from discrimination and violence and the freedom to defend the country we love without having to hide who we are. Don’t do it because it’s politically smart, do it because it’s the right thing to do.
You know it is.
Originally published Dec. 23, 2008
Jamie
Japhy, I have to say this is far above and beyond the type of post I expect from Queerty. I’m pretty impressed by the manner in which you’re changing this site for the better.
Simon
I agree with Jamie. Well written, well done.
Qjersey
in order of what is may realistically pass congress
1) ENDA
2) Apportioning of HIV funding by prevalence rates, e.g., gay men= 50% of HIV cases, yet less than 30% of federal money is targeted to them..LISTEN TO THOSE SCIENTISTS Obama
3) Repeal Don’t ask Dont tell
4) Mathew Shephard Hate Crimes Act
5) Federal Civil Unions (yeah many want marriage, but this would be easier to achieve)
Herber Wassinger
NO MORE MR/MS NICE GAYS–PROTEST OBAMA’S INAUGURAL
Obama’s mantra that we can all disagree without being disagreeable ignores the history of progress in the movement for civil rights where civil disobedience and other tactics–very disagreeable to bigots–has always played a central role. Rosa Parks’ refusal to move to the back of the bus was not only disagreeable to some, it was downright illegal. Refusals to leave white lunch counters, refusals to stop marching, etc. etc. How disagreeable!!
Oh, and let’s not forget the substantial progress in the recognition of AIDS and expanded antiviral drug distribution that came only after rather disagreeable protests from ACT-UP. Let’s practice the lessons here, friends:
PROTEST THE OBAMA INAUGURAL BY:
1. Unsubscribe to myobama.com. list your reasons
2. Call Joe Biden’s office and complain
(302) 573-6345 (202) 224-5042
3. Make signs and raise them in demonstrations
4. Add your own suggestions !
rjb
The tone that Queerty has taken recently is really starting to bother me. There is so much grand standing and use of royal we.
The obsession with gay marriage has started to take on an almost conservative voice.
douglasgibsonjr
@Qjersey: Don’t forget the repeal of DOMA and the passage of the Federal Employees Domestic Partner Benefit Act
Raymond Sawyersmith
Marriage Rights for us on the federal level. The repeal of DOMA to accomplish it in the States. The cost for Obama is justice for all.
You can forget bringing us to the table to eat dessert first. I prefer the hors d’oeuvres and then the meat course and the fish course ( reverse it if you wish, some of us eat both ) and then we’ll see if you are just the most successful Chicago hack ever, or you are the real deal.
Michael W.
Interesting, Japhy, that you were able to conjure up the Booker T. Washington analogy a day after this guy did it:
http://dewaynewickham.blogspot.com/2008/12/rick-warren-is-obamas-booker-t.html
http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2008/12/warren-could-be.html
Japhy Grant
@Michael W.: Ha. I hadn’t seen this. We sort of seem to have different takes on it, though, don’t you think? Never heard of Dewayne before and looks like the USA Today version of it went up this morning, so as much as I appreciate the accusation of intellectual theft, the reality is I just happened to be a big fan of Edmund Morris’ ‘Theodore Rex.’
blake
“[Gay marriage is the} defining civil rights issue of our time”?
Dude,
Not everyone is concerned about marriage. For many of us, ENDA is far more important because getting fired for being gay affects more people than marriage.
I respect the efforts and goals of those fighting for marriage rights but I think that there is little attention being given to ENDA, which would provide far more benefit to the majority of GLBT Americans.
Michael W.
@Japhy Grant: Oh that’s nonsense, Japhy. It wasn’t meant as an accusation. That’s why I used the word “interesting.”
Alan down in Florida
Here’s my solution to the Rick Warren problem POTUS(E)Obama. Invite Bishop Gene Robinson to speak at the convocation as well. Or are Episcopals on the Christian Right hit list too?
concretepinata
Well written.
Slider
Japhy,
Most of what you say I agree with. However, Obama is hardly ‘marginally’ liberal. Obama had the most liberal voting record in the U.S. Senate. Beyond that I totally agree with you that Obama has a “tin” ear when it comes to GLBT rights.
I also very much agree that Obama is employing his re election strategy now. He started on election night when he announced his re election in his election acceptance speech by sticking a line in it that what he hopes to achieve will take more then one term.
It is ridiculous for Obama to state that he couldn’t find someone else for the invocation. Quite frankly, it should have been Reverand Joe Lowery to demonstrate that yes we have over come and to honor the memory of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Oddly, Obama stuck Reverand Lowery at the back of the bus as he is running us over the bus that he is driving.
I am willing to have civil unions providing everyone has civil unions (that means str8 couples) and they have the same rights we do. Ironic that Obama’s parents couldn’t get married in most states when they were married and Gays can only be married in two states and once they leave those two states their marriage is not recognized any where else.
Unless we stand up and fight, we will continue to be thrown under the bus and all too willingly by liberals.
In a very real sense, Melissa Ethridge said it correctly, although it is only part of the solution, which is it is time we engage in dialogue and real conversations with evangelicals. Let us show up en masse and say we are here to join your churches, help the least amongst us with us and let them see ourselves, our families, our children and that we are not the evil that we are demonized to be by their evangelical leaders.
Time to stand up and be counted and it is time to tell the Democratic Congress and the Democratic President, “hell no, we are not going to take the crumbs any more”
It is time to build from the grass roots up at the state and local level and also to work on all issues (not prioritize….did the Civil Rights movement say that they were entitled to more rights on some issues but less on others….I think not!!)
The moment we say we will accept a federal civil unions bill, which is meaningless unless you repeal Sections of DOMA that indicate that “incidents of marriage” (i.e. federal statutory marriage rights) need not be recognized by the states.
In that list you forgot to add marriage rights for those who wish to marry their significant others who are not citizens and are subject to deportation (except if they were str8 they would not be)
If we are unwilling to say that well only some of our rights are important so we will take one thing passed and let the rest slide by, then we are willingly throwing ourselves under the bus. I am not willing to do so.
It is time to dialogue with both political parties rather then be the second class citizens of just one political party except of course when it comes to our money and votes.
It is time to be smart and organize and from the local level up and like that tee shirt from the 1990s said “We are Everywhere”..we need to just be that and the more we do that, then the more it will be that str8s see that we are entitled to full citizenship and work with us to achieve it.
Evangelicals do understand that we were all created by God and God Loves all us of. Start with that self evident statement and there is no argument for the minute an evangelical argues that we are not entitled to equality, then you need to look them in the eye and say they are denying God’s children the same rights they have.
Remind them we are only as good as the least amongst us and if they seek to make us the least amongst us then they are not showing mercy, doing justice and are not doing God’s work by loving thy neighbor and they love themselves.
Keep calm but resolute and firm. I watched Johnathan Capehart on “Morning Joe” this morning and he showed how it can be done in his debate with Joe Scarborough and Patrick Buchanan.
I have no doubt that liberal Democrats will be more then happy to throw us under the bus if we let them. Time to remind them in all we do that we will not let them.
Time to converse with evangelicals, Republicans, Democrats, liberals, conservatives and any one and everyone under the Rainbow. It will be the only way we will be every where and achieve our full constitutional and civil rights as citizens in this country.
Let us begin again and turn every knock into a boost and stand tall. Remember, we have only just begun to fight and we shall fight and achieve the same rights as the rest of the citizens of this country..the str8 ones that is.
Slider
One clarification to my prior post, I am being ironic in stating that I will accept civil unions if str8 couples do (do they want to be less then and not receive any federal statutory rights for their legal union and very few state statutory rights? I think not!)
Provide federal civil unions for str8s and gays and eliminate the term marriage. If that is what it takes….but then repeal DOMA of course the evangelicals will say we are changing the definition of marriage. In that regard, stop treading on my rights then.
Have civil unions for all and if someone wants the term marriage applied to them then they can have their civil union blessed by a church of their choosing.
As Barney Frank said, you can call it any name you want (he jokingly said you can call it “Fred” just as long as you provide Gay couples the same statutory rights as str8 couples) Do that on the federal level and have those federal civil unions recognized in all 50 states and that would be fine by me.
That is just the beginning…..let’s see if the Democratic Congress stops using the excuses that if they pass the Republican President will veto it, when it comes to our civil rights. As of noon time on January 20, 2009, there will be a Democratic President to sign those laws Japhy mentions….so let’s get busy and get it done.
There will be enough Republicans to add to votes….time we get busy to convince those Republicans to join with us……There are enough of the likes of Congresswoman Iliana Ross-Liathan from Florida to stand tall with us (she is one of the original co sponsors with former Congressman Marty Meehan to end Don’t Ask Don’t Tell)
I do thank Obama for giving us the gift to get us off our duffs and not take for granted one single vote in Congress and to make sure he rests his signing hand to sign rather then veto our civil rights legislation.
greg
A well done article for the most part. Curious that you would peg Warren as representative of a group influential but not yet large enough to get a seat at the table. Have you been paying attention the last eight years?
Obama is not particularly liberal and has never presented himself as an advocate for full equality. He does have unprecedented potential to advance civil rights and we should do all we can to hold his feet to the fire, but I think it’s naive to think anything will happen without continuous pressure
mark
NOTHING makes Obama selecting Warren…. OK.
Turn your back on Warren, and kiss the partner of your choice the entire Invocation.
We have no control who Obama invites, we have control of our REACTION.
Joe Moag
@rjb: AMEN!
Raphael
[T]he fact that he selected a major Prop. 8 supporter while remaining silent as thousands of civil rights advocates marched and demonstrated makes you wonder if Obama’s lofty rhetoric and impassioned sense of justice only applies to those things which personally effect Obama.
THANK YOU!!!!!
Am I the only one who’s been bufuddled by Obama’s complete ignorance of the civil unrest going on?
damien
@Raphael: No, you’re not the only one befuddled – which is why Obama wasn’t my first nor second choice for President: Political actions out-weigh political words. And Obama seemed to be mostly words 🙂
Japhy, I agree with much of what you say, though certainly not all. Obama does throw around a lot of rhetoric. I argued that during his primary campaign. Will his rhetoric turn to actions? I’m not sure, but I hope so.
I think the anger comes out of the fact that a lot of us got caught up in Obama’s big speeches during his campaign, but forgot that he’s a politician at heart. If it were Clinton, Biden or Edwards in the President seat and they made such a crazy decision to have Warren speak, then the Gay Community would’ve been very angry – but probably not AS angry/hurt/disappointed as we are at Obama, right?
As I said previously, I’m a person of action, not speeches. I couldn’t care less who speaks at the Inauguration, it’s Obama’s presidential legislation that’ll determine if he’s worth my anger or not. And he hasn’t legislated on anything yet. Who he chooses as speaker doesn’t even demonstrate how he will legislate, in my opinion, no more than being a long-time supporter (at one point) of Rev. Wright demonstrates how he will legislate. However, in order to heal this divided country, I hope Obama legislates from the center, instead of the left or right. Keeping this country divided is what will allow people like Sarah Palin to return with a vengeance in 2012.
Anyhow, very well written, Japhy. Here’s to a hopefully kick-ass 4 years!
TikiHead
Michelle Obama just sent a mass email encouraging people to donate to food banks. I replied, and apologized for all of the sodomy on my donations.
Herber Wassinger
if you don’t like this: 1. unsubscribe to mybarakobama.com 2. call biden’s office; suggest other concrete ways of peaceful, but uncivil, expression. or you will be waiting for another forty years. (fine if you are a patient teenager, but not where i am. 🙂 )
Lorian
Upside-down analogy.
This analogy would be more correct if Obama had invited a prominent gay person to give the invocation. A more correct analogy to Obama’s ACTUAL choice of Warren would be if Roosevelt invited a racist white minister to dinner at the White House.
Blacks were the oppressed minority then and gays are now. Rick Warren is not a member of an oppressed minorty, unless Rich White Men who are Southern Baptist Ministers and Pastors of Megachurches are now to be ascribed the status of “oppressed minorities”
Bruno
“Having lost every single time our rights have come up to a vote, gays and lesbians have nothing to lose in making our case vocally and often.”
Exactly, I’ve been saying this since early November, when conservative asses got so bent out of shape by our reaction, they had to resort to threatening us with losing something we just lost. “Behave like good little kids and maybe we’ll give you civil unions in 20 years,” all the while contemplating what laws to put up for a vote to remove existing LGBT rights…that’s pretty much the attitude.
TonyinStPete
Yes, Obama as well as Biden and all the others in the transition have been incredibly silent about the righteous anger that many gay folks who campaigned so hard for him feel.
Nancy Pelosi, as Speaker of the House, is arguably the second most powerful Democratic officeholder in the federal government. It is also true that her district is arguably the gayest in the country; that is, she represents more GLBT people than any other congressperson.
Her office needs to be phoned and e-mailed by all of us putting the pressure on the new Democratic Congress to get the federal ENDA law passed now. Remember, many of us live in states where it is still legal to fire someone just for being gay…and big states too like Texas and Florida.
Also, the least the Obama administration can do is to sign the UN declaration with regard to the decriminalization of homosexuality. One of the most recent and loathsome acts of the Bush regime was to refuse to sign a United Nations document propounded by France and the Netherlands and signed by every other advanced country. Even Mexico signed the statement that homosexualityh should never be made a criminal offense. Remember, in Saudi ARabia you can be executed for it etc.
Sonoranliberal
@Lorian: EXACTLY.
Sonoranliberal
@Bruno: EXACTLY.
MadProfessah
“If we would ask one thing of Obama it would be that he would start speaking about marriage equality in moral terms. Denying a minority their civil rights to appeal the qualms of the majority was wrong in 1895 and it’s wrong in 2008. Obama should say so.”
I think it’s sort of bizarre to ask Barack Obama to “start speaking about marriage equality in moral terms” when he has said repeatedly HE DOESN’T BELIEVE IN MARRIAGE EQUALITY! He does believe that same-sex couples should be treated equally under the law to the fullest extent possible (short of the word marriage) and I think it is reasonable to ask him to talk about this belief in moral terms.
Mister C
Well when the day comes when I walk in a predominately white gay bar alone and not with some of my friends whom are non black and a bartender will serve me with dignity and NOT pass me by over, and over again.
THEN I’LL SAY FUCK YOU OBAMA FOR SELECTING RICK WARREN.
The day I can walk into a bar where we all can assimilate and enjoy loving fellowship with each other and not Blacks upstairs and whites downstairs (i.e. The Fireplace Washington DC) or When whites leave and go to another bar to fellowship because too many minorities have started to come at the normal spot (i.e. Bulldogs Atlanta GA), or (Key West Philadelphia).
THEN I’LL SAY FUCK YOU OBAMA FOR SELECTING RICK WARREN.
When HRC and GLAAD will start putting minorities in larger key positions and then begin to see the need for TRUE SUPPORT in minority LGBT communities with results.
THEN I’LL SAY FUCK YOU OBAMA FOR SELECTING RICK WARREN
When Gay Pride committees whereas the board is predominately White with no minority BOARD representation or some minorities can be selected on committees who gives ideas for the celebration where all LGBT’s of all races can be properly identified during PRIDE. And then we will no longer have Black, Latino, Asian, or Native American Pride celebrations. When that happens.
THEN I’LL SAY FUCK YOU OBAMA FOR SELECTING RICK WARREN
When WHITE, BLACK, LATINO, ASIAN, NATIVE AMERICANS can look at each other and understand each other…. Not look at each other for sexual purposes and then begin to understand and love and accept each other knowing we’re in this together and then bond to fight for a common LGBT cause. Because there is UNITY AND STREGNTH in numbers!
Then and only then will I say: FUCK YOU OBAMA FOR SELECTING RICK WARREN!
And that is my COMPROMISE!
Respectfully
Mister C
pcnguyen
There is no compromise. As a member of an ethnic minority group, I would not have compromised with Bush if he had selected a member of Aryan nation to speak at his inauguration. I feel the same way towards Obama re: Rick Warren. Here is a link to a short video where I address the President-elect directly:
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-168242
As a gay man in an 8 year relationship who was married in California, I point out that Warren’s opposition to gay marriage is not the main reason the gay community is so hurt and outraged. Instead, it is Warren’s comparison of LGBT people to pedophiles, the fact that he equates our relationships to incest, and the countless other derogatory remarks he has made about our very humanity. I read a famous poem by an African American poet to the President-elect that will hopefully help him understand the inchoate pain his actions have caused LGBT Americans.
E Jackson
Not sure I understand why there is such outrage over the comparison of gays to other deviations of the traditional sexual norm. Especially in terms of how the government regulates them.
Bestiality, incest and homosexuality all have the same litmus test results for harm to others not directly involved, contribution to society, and even the immigration marriage standard of Love vs convenience (true intent of heart). So with the three relevant litmus tests indicating that they are in the same category, why so upset?
Pedophiles and rapists fail the first two, but even they claim the same true intent of heart that they were born like that and can’t control it just as is claimed by homosexuality.
I know I’m playing devils advocate here but it just seems that gays wanting acceptance from society but getting offended by being compared to other sexual parallels is a bit hypocritical.
mark
Mister C
I don’t except racist queers any more than I except racist straights.
I also don’t EXCUSE homobigotted Whites or Blacks.
Warren is an AFFRONT, and it was Obama going out of his way to P*SS US OFF, and SPIT ON us on DAY ONE.
pcnguyen
@E Jackson:
First, the 3 litmus tests are a bit arbitrary and not clearly defined, but I’ll bite. However, by “traditional sexual norm” are you referring to polygamy, which was the earliest norm in the Abrahamic religions upon which our ostensibly Judeo-Christian culture is based?
Incest: Ever heard of a little thing called genetics? Should heterosexual siblings procreate, the result would likely harm their offspring for life. I suppose one could argue that there is no harm to others if the siblings in question do not intend procreate. But accidents do happen (unless said siblings are of the same sex or one is infertile). But there is a reason that anthropologists have discovered the incest taboo to be a universal phenomenon (as in it exists in every culture without exception, which is not true of homosexuality): Genetics. Evolution, via natural selection, has imbued us with such a primal, fundamental aversion to incest (due to the ghastly consequences to the unfortunate offspring of such sexual relationships)that anyone who manages to overcome a genetically programmed disgust that is the product of millions of years of evolution is clearly psychologically ill. Homosexuality, while clearly not universally praised by all cultures, has been and is still celebrated in some cultures.
Your statement re: pedophiles and rapists is too ridiculous for me to waste my time responding to it.
Bestiality: If you know of an animal that can verbally consent to having sex with you, by all means don’t let social prejudice stop you from having your fun. Otherwise, you have no way of knowing if the animal is being harmed when you rape it or not. And I do not just mean physically harmed…Assuming that non-human mammals receive conscious pleasure from having sex with members of their own species, which they clearly do, it is unclear how being raped by you would impact the animal’s ability to continue enjoying sex with members of its own species. Moreover, animals can be behaviorally conditioned, and raping an animal could also have the effect of making it more aggressive and therefore a danger towards humans and other animals. Regardless, it is a moot point because an animal cannot consent and thus you are raping the animals with whom you are having sex.
You seem to be doing more than merely playing devil’s advocate by suggesting that pedophiles, rapists (!!!), incestuous couples, and humans who rape animals are our “sexual parallels”. And there are other criteria beyond the three you mentioned, but you obviously know that.
Ahem!
Let’s see now, we are up in arms because the MOFO Warren also said the jews were going to hell, but it is okay by queerty to demonize Islam. Well lets look at history, shall we? The jews have held it over the whole world’s head what hitler did to them, when they themselves are allowed to occupy another’s country, kill and torture them, silence them with brutality and then Muslims are the bad guys? US and UK support the jews at the expense of all others for control of the oil of the region and the jews there get uncontested amounts of free grants from the US economy as if they were the hired goons for the area. Queerty, your slip is showing! You are nothing but dumb puppets for the jewish agenda. Get your facts straight before you open your dumb mouth.
daftpunkydavid
@Qjersey: i would much rather a repeal of DOMA than civil unions. the reason is simple. a marriage i can already have in massachusetts, connecticut and soon (one hopes) in nj and ny, and in many countries in the world. were the us federal government to recognize that, no need for civil union. get rid of DOMA!!
alicia banks
excellent column!
and it proves that rev. wright was correct when he told us that obama was a ruthless politico who will do anything that is
politically expedient
peace
alicia banks
OUTLOOK
http://aliciabanks.blogspot.com
Qjersey
Re: Civil Unions vs. Marriage. I am all for marriages, but federal recognition of Civil Unions are more likely to happen. Obama is for CU and not marriage and his position won’t change if at all until his second term…if he gets one.
With federal recognition of CU’s couples can travel to states that have them, e.g., NJ, Conn, Vt. and then access federal benefits (taxes, etc) and insurance from federally regulated carriers.
just being pragmatic
And of course everyone picks up on what I said about CUs and Marriages,
what I wrote about HIV….CRICKETS, no wonder we can’t get a handle on it, our community is ambivalent and doesn’t care anymore.
ask ena
@Bruno:
Nailed it.
I can hear our rights being chip-chip-chipped away as this blog gets longer.
I don’t believe that this is actually about marriage. I think, rather, that it is about the re-structuring of the ultra-conservative far right around an issue (gay rights, in general) which is easy to bash with little consequence. After all, most of the world is not gay.
Honestly, what makes gay marriage so threatening? We all know the answer, Rick Warren included: NOTHING. So when one right is attained, another right will be put on the chopping block. How close can gays live to an elementary school? What jobs are gays allowed to have vs. not? Is the right to marry fundamentally different than any other right?
NO
This is all about bringing people together: OUR ENEMIES.
The Gay Numbers
@Japhy Grant: We do not need to list our compromise. We know the legislation we want passed, do we not? Thus, the goal is the strategy for passing it, and his active participation in that strategy rather than passive endorsement.
Brian Miller
Civil Unions vs. Marriage. I am all for marriages, but federal recognition of Civil Unions are more likely to happen. Obama is for CU and not marriage and his position won’t change if at all until his second term…if he gets one.
So let’s be honest and truthful and refer to him as what he is — a homophobe.
what I wrote about HIV….CRICKETS, no wonder we can’t get a handle on it, our community is ambivalent and doesn’t care anymore
I know how to avoid getting HIV and so do most gay men — don’t fuck around without protection.
I know it’s politically incorrect to note this, but HIV is easy to defeat — just don’t engage in unprotected promiscuous behavior, and the virus will literally vanish from the earth after 20 to 30 years.
Gay marriage bans, on the other hand, are not easy to defeat.
Rather than waste time convincing queer men not to kill themselves and their partners through acknowledged irresponsibility, a little tough love there would help. Tough talk to Obama will help with this marriage issue as well. “Feel good” rhetoric has its limits — Obama’s betrayal of gay people and the soaring rates of HIV infection both indicate that all too well.
The Gay Numbers
RE A GUIDE TO CONVERSATIONS ABOUT GAY MARRIAGE
a) STRAIGHT (LEFT OR LIBERALS) (ASSUMING THEY ARE NOT HOMOPHOBIC)
Equality under the law. “See ma, I am open because I hung out with gay folks.” “Down with the man” Oh, wait.
b) DEMOCRATS (NOT THE SAME THING AS THE LEFT)
Wedge issue to woo Dems and gays. Will toss us under the bus, but only, if they feel we threaten their real agendas (depending on if they are Blue Dog, Yellow Dog, progressive or whatever).
c) REPUBLICANS
Wedge issue to woo the Christian conservative base into submission and random bigots who are not religious but anti ‘special rights” (meaning any rights that they already enjoy, but don’t want others to have). Also the faux-Libertarians.
d) LIBERAL OR MODERATE GAYS
Varied- some of us fit into different groups. Combo of reasons that have nothing to do with whether we even want to get married. It’s about the first class citizenship, “hey, some day I may want to marry, and I want that option. Who are you to tell me that it’s not my right? I should make that decision” Strongly social libertarian streak to some of it. For others, strongly religious one. For some, traditional views of society. It varies a lot.
e) PRAGMATIC GAYS
I need health insurance. I want to visit my partner in the hospital. I can’t adopt my kids. My company is saying my civil union is not the same as marriage, but I don’t have the money to pay a lawyer to litigate the issue.
f) CONSERVATIVE GAYS
A way to stick it to the Democrats, allows racism. Traditional views of society. But-for being gay, I would be the ruling class. Etc.
g) RICH GAYS
They don’t care about this issue
h) RADICAL GAYS
Marriage is a way for hetero-normality to take over the gay identity, blah, blah, blah and a lot of other shit that has little to do with the actual issue being discussed regarding equality under the law. It’s a form of orthodoxy handed down from the early part of the gay movement when gays were trying to find any space to call their own. Now, it just seems bizare to argue, “You can be free by my telling you what to do. You know. Just like the heterosexuals tell you that you shouldn’t get married because gay sex is icky. I am telling you not to get married because of my view of marriage.”
Brian Miller
Queerty, your slip is showing! You are nothing but dumb puppets for the jewish agenda.
OK, who invited Adolph?
RichardR
@E Jackson: Uh, because they’re not parallels?
mark
I had a post which discussed treating LGBTs serving in the military, as equals and not considering their sacrifices and their deaths in battle as a dirty little secret.
I was also angry about Warren coining the UNORIGINAL phrase “CHRIST-O-PHOBES, as we read about an openly lesbian GANG RAPED by 4 assailants, and who is the VICTIM in our society.
I posted this on the Christmas thread at Obama’s transition blog, who deleted it. I had posted this same message in Boston, Dallas, and another news story discussing Warren, and on Pam’s House Blend.
After that was deleted, I washed my hands of Obama’s blog.
My 4 donations might as well, have been thrown down a RAT HOLE.
If I wanted to be treated like sh*t, after eight years of Cheney, I wouldn’t have lifted a G*D DAMN finger this last 2 years.
The Gay Numbers
@mark: Who deleted it?
mark
The argument against the bigotry of the Christian Right and republicans…can be explained that it isn’t a moral stance they make, it’s a financial and power decision.
It brings in BIG DONATIONS when these fundy f*cktards rattle their tamborines and say they MUST save the flock from those sinful faggots.
It wins elections when Repigs say they have to save your kids from the filthy disease ridden faggots lurking on the playground, or worse teaching the classrooms.
mark
the gay numbers,
Who ever was minding the Obama blog yesterday, there was one response which may have been the moderator, which asked if I worked for CHANGE, couldn’t I say something positive on Christmas.
I suspect that is who edited the post.
ddweller151 was the nickname he responds to mark, on page 3
http://change.gov/newsroom/entry/happy_holidays/#idc-ctools
Kate Albright-Hana wrote the original blurb on the thread “Happy Holidays”…so she may edit the responses.
The Gay Numbers
@mark: Well- my thought process is you need to work to call them on this shit. Don’t just let it go.
mark
The post is on Pam’s House Blend
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do;jsessionid=D046C42C29CDDBB485B49AC35506C264?diaryId=8799
I use the nickname peteyPornpig…because that dipsh*t Peter Labarbera used to like to quote me, and I make him grab my nickname if he wants to quote me now…..(grins)
Brian Miller
After that was deleted, I washed my hands of Obama’s blog.
My 4 donations might as well, have been thrown down a RAT HOLE.
I could have told you that a year ago and saved you a big chunk of change, but if you were like most Obamaniacs, you blasted me as racist, Republican, Apple-pie-hating and hope-change crushing.
I mean seriously, this was NOT new. Obama has a long history of throwing his mentors AND supporters under a bus when it suits him. It suits him right now, and here you are, and you’re acting all hurt and surprised.
Some people learn through evidence and analysis. Other people need to graduate from the School of Hard Knocks.
Well, you got your GED. I suspect that by the end of the Obama administration, his queer supporters will have earned their PhDs.
mark
@Brian
Maybe you mistook me for someone who hasn’t taken HARD KNOCKS, that’s your first MISTAKE.
Second if you want to say “I told ya so”, and think I’ll be warm and fuzzy….your second MISTAKE
Third I don’t “act” HURT, I am HURT.
Fourth I’ve seen ugly racist posts on queerty, who attacked Obama ONLY because her was African American, (not lumping you into that group without proof)….but it happened, a lot.
mark
her = he, above typo
mark
gay numbers,
Obama’s blog let me go. It’s not my job, to make them welcoming of LGBT voices, that’s THEIR job. They aren’t doing that job well IMO.
The Gay Numbers
@mark: It’s not about it being your job. If they are doing a poor job, then it’s up to us to fight them wherever we can. My point was about our tendency to just retreat when things get hard over how people view our civil rights. You aren’t obligated to do anything I m saying. I am simply making a statement about what we should do. The response should not be “oh well time to give up” but insteadn” screw you, I am going to say what I want to say” and to keep pushing for it
mark
@The Gay Numbers:
there is someone called “webmaster” who doesn’t appreciate our talking about gay stuff on the Holidays, and directs us to wait until there is a gay subject to add our HOMOSEXUAL thinking to.
He deleted two of my responses.
his discription says David Apperson on his profile
The Gay Numbers
@mark: So go after him. Complain to someone who is higher running the site, and if they don’t listen, put up a diary on a blog like daily kos saying “Obama censoring gay dissent on his site” or something like that. Don’t just accept it is my point. It maybe this one person or a concerted effort, but you want change things, even this little small bit , by just meekly going away. That’s what the powerful want.
Brian Miller
@mark:
Well, the problem is that you were warm and fuzzy to the wrong people (politicians), and you’re getting rough on the people who warned you about it (your fellow homos).
Obama’s blog let me go. It’s not my job, to make them welcoming of LGBT voices, that’s THEIR job. They aren’t doing that job well IMO.
They got your money and they got your vote. Now you can go to hell for four years, at which time they’ll demand both again and accuse you of supporting the Republicans if you don’t put out.
Don’t reward ’em this time.
Angel
Slider posts:
“Melissa Ethridge said it correctly, although it is only part of the solution, which is it is time we engage in dialogue and real conversations with evangelicals. Let us show up en masse and say we are here to join your churches, help the least amongst us with us and let them see ourselves, our families, our children and that we are not the evil that we are demonized to be by their evangelical leaders.”
Didn’t Melissa’s chick, Julie Cypher, leave her, saying she couldn’t be gay anymore?
Maybe she went back to Lou Diamond Phillips.
It’s pretty hard to take gay marriage seriously when you see trainwrecks like that one.
Phoenix (A Proud Lefty Looney Liberal)
What “we” plan on doing? I don’t know.
What I plan on doing is this:
The next time a solicitation from the Democratic Party (or the Obama Campaign) comes in the mail (which is every few days), instead of sending them a donation, I will be sending them a letter that they should not ask me for money (or votes) anymore until LGBTQ have the same rights in this country as Straight, White, “Real” Christian Americans. My votes only go to those who actively fight for equality. Those who are “all mouth and no trousers” will not be getting my vote.
I plan on sending letters and donations in support of those businesses and organizations who support LGBTQ equality. I will make sure my family also supports them with $$$$.
I plan on sending letters without donations to those businessess and organizations who don’t support LGBTQ equality. I will make sure that they have lost my queer $$$$ & that of my friends/family, because of their intolerable bigotry.
p.s. Marriage isn’t really about marriage, it’s about being treated like an equal to straights.
Daniel
This was one of the best articles I’ve read here at queerty.
Brian Miller
@Phoenix (A Proud Lefty Looney Liberal):
The next time a solicitation from the Democratic Party (or the Obama Campaign) comes in the mail (which is every few days), instead of sending them a donation, I will be sending them a letter that they should not ask me for money (or votes) anymore until LGBTQ have the same rights in this country as Straight, White, “Real” Christian Americans.
Make sure you send this letter in response to EVERY fundraiser they send you.
Aldo make sure you also use their paid reply envelopes every time you do so.
Megs
How can you write that The civil actions that had whites so terrified in 1895 were strikes, demonstrations and protests– the sorts of things the gay community is engaging in today.?!?
Whites were terrified?!?!
They were terrorists, murdering black people across the country– rioting against the very presence of black people, destroying entire black communities. Lynchings, rapes, and every atrocity humans are capable of committing was visited upon black Americans, and you phrase your argument from the perspective of white fear?
This is the type of bullshit that undermines the white LGBT struggle for parity with the most powerful. Try not to be so glib about the very real massive terrorism that whites committed with impunity during the period you mentioned, and far far beyond. You’re better than that. Reflect it.
jiminportlandoregon
@Slider: The notion that Obama had the most liberal voting record in the Senate is pure bullshit – it is nothing more than a Republican talking point. It began during the campaign; McCain/Palin used this line at every opportunity. I only WISH Obama was the most liberal Senator. While he certainly leans to the left, there are many who are leaning a good deal more than he is. Do you really think Obama is more liberal than Ted Kennedy, Bernie Sanders, Barbara Boxer? That’s just to name a few.
tommy
Who wrote this piece?
ousslander
Gosh white people are just so horrible!
Jim
You’re RIGHT! Obama IS throwing us under the bus, but he’s inside the bus leaning out the window while Rick Warren is driving the bus, and Melissa Etheridge is behind that bus running over our corpses in a Microbus!
Brian Miller
@Megs:
I am SO tired of the whole “whites” and “gays” group-guilt crap.
Two can play at this oppression Olympics crap, BTW.
While black Americans were sitting comfortably at the back of the bus in Alabama, MY relatives were being gassed and cremated in ovens in Europe. Thus, how DARE you say you’re oppressed?!? WE were MURDERED, you only had to ride in the back of the bus!
It’s all such bullshit. Hate is wrong, always. Discrimination is wrong, always. If you claim to have a gold medal in the oppression Olympics, you’re probably wrong and you WILL get your ass kicked.
Charles Merrill
Well said, thanks. Keep protests alive. No equal rights for us, then bring them to their knees with a threatned tax protest April 15th. Get the government where it hurts while the world economy is crashing. Have no sympathy.
Megs
@Brian Miller: Your comment is filled with such aggressive ignorance of American history, it is not worthy of a response.
Megs
@ousslander: I know. So many of you are so filled with rage, you cannot see beyond it. Sad, isn’t it?
Charles J. Mueller
@Megs:
And your comment is filled with such aggressive ignorance of European history, that it is not worthy of a response either.
If you are not outraged, then you are not paying attention.
It’s apathetic people like you, all filled with the love of Jesus, forgiveness and understanding who are willing and delighted to kiss the asses of the oppressors at every opportunity you get, that keep the rest of us from attaining our rights. You’re simply dismissed.
That’s what is truly sad.
Charles J. Mueller
@Brian Miller:
Brian, you stated something that needed saying and I am glad that you had the balls to say it.
Time and time again, I have heard the comment from gay Afro-Americans that “It’s not fair to equate the gay-marriage issue with black civil-rights and we resent your doing it. After all, we suffered for 300 years” and comments to the same effect.
Hello? Is the suffering of any one group less important, less painful, less vilifying and wrong than the suffering of another group? Is that anyone’s suffering is reduced to…a pissing match? My suffering is bigger and better than your suffering?
Ok. So blacks did suffer for 300 years. That’s a fact and no is denying it or trying to marginalize it.
That said, he is another fact. Gay people have suffered for some 2,000 years and not just at the hands of “whitey”, who as ousslander so virtuously proclaimed “Gosh white people are just so horrible!” I don’t know if he was serious or was just saying that with tongue planted firmly in cheek? Point being, why is the suffering of gay people being marginalized?
We’ve sadly read the statistics of who voted against us on Proposition 8, so I do not need to make a case about who does and who does not like us. I will just simply say that it is a sad commentary when those, who themselves were the victims of oppressors and horrible treatment, become the new oppressors and the purveyors of horrible treatment. Tit for tat, as it were?
Obviously, the previously oppressd learned nothing from their own experience and simply switched places. Like the child who is beaten by his parents, who when fully grown with a family of his own, beats his kids too. It’s a syndrome that gets played out over and over and over, ad nauseum.
And while are on the topic of oppressors, the largest victim group of Hitler’s holocaust did not show much sympathy or mercy for the some 10,000 gays who were also MURDERED. It is a documented fact that very few Jews had any sympathy for the gays whom they looked down on and despised…even though they were suffering the same horrible treatment, and in some cases worse, such as being used as guinea pigs for German medical experiments, as the Jews. Despite that fact, I do not hear anyone, including the gays, marginalizing the suffering of the Jews, Gypsies and any of the other victims of that horrible travesty.
Germany’s hatred of gays was, in fact, so virulent, that when the Allies liberated Europe and the concentration camps in Germany were shut down, those remaining gays who had been sentenced to prison terms by the Nazis, simply for being gay, were thrown back into civil prisons to serve out the remainder of their sentences while the Jews were permitted to return to their homes. Very few of these unfortunate men ever lived long enough to return to their homes. Who mourns them?
The sad truth is, there is plenty of blame to go around. I am a non-believer who is not given to quoting the bible, but the following passage seem quite appropriate.
Let he who is without sin toss the first stone.
jon
@Megs: very well said.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Charles J. Mueller:
“Ok. So blacks did suffer for 300 years. That’s a fact and no is denying it or trying to marginalize it.”
Are you clinically insane???
What is WRONG with you people?
Hello. Mention you are ONLY talking about the frigging US!? And when you say gay for 2000 years, are you talking about the US???
Fuck did the WHITES discover the US 2000 years ago??
I’m confused.
You make a good point about selective anger towards discrimination, though NO ONE has it on the frigging Jews! Ok.
Because Jews can moan and cry about what happened to them and rightly SO! But hey, well done! You own the world! Seriously, you do and good for you, after the shit you’ve experienced..
But like I said before, the jews, the irish etc could HIDE. And they did! Cause they could physically pass….but WE still can’t. Cause we’re DUH black.
We can’t sneak into that job and employ our cousin, best friend etc etc cause it’d just look (visually) too damn black.
So stop throwing your pathetic toys out of the pram.
Blacks were in da bible doufus! And peeps weren’t so sweet on em, were they??? Hmmmm…
So again, 300 years? Which country? Whic continent?
The frigging abyssians(Black as the night!)were aroung during the Greek times. The people from the MOORS(Black as the night!), ruled over southern spain specifically Spain-go to Anderlucia…and that was geez more then 1000 years ago…??
And erm, they were persecuted against…
I’m not being rude here but do you guys ONLY learn about the US in history? Do you have NOTHING about other races or cultures with nothing to with the US in the library?
I’m just shocked by seemingly intelligent people coming out with the most ignorant comments..
Megs
@jon: Thank you, Jon. Those who would assume I am a Christian are wrong. Assuming I am straight is also wrong. But while all black Americans seem to be free of oppression to some of you, let me assure you that your blinders are in perfect working order.
As to the Holocaust, my father fought in a segregated US army against it, and was treated worse than German POWs, when he was gravely wounded, and spent the rest of his life as a 100% disabled vet. Black peoples’ oppression did not begin 300 years ago, and does not have an expiration date. And I doubt there is any history of any people who were not subjugated at one time or another.
Yet, there are always troubling racist tics that come up with LBGT rights, and they prevent too many of you from seeing where alliances can be built. Had not ONE black person voted on Prop 8, it still would have passed. MORMONS took it home. They were segregated until the late 70’s. Black people were considered the sons of Ham, and not worthy of their god.
The ill-praised post I initially criticized deserved it. The default for race should no more be white, than the default for sexuality be ‘straight’, or the default for gender be male.
But to claim that black people were not murdered by whites with impunity, that they are not fodder for the prison-industrial complex, and that they are not still treated far far worse than white gay men now, is bullshit. Ask a black queer. Or just continue to vilify her, to substantiate your own baseless hate-filled attacks.
And Mueller? I do mourn the Roma (or as you ignorantly refer to them as ‘gypsies’). They continue to suffer outrageously as well. Perhaps educating yourself about European history and current events would serve you than vesting so heavily in your too obvious hatred of black people.
Megs
Well done, John from England! A little world history can’t hurt, can it? Oh wait. It will. Being a white gay American man is the worst possible situation EVER.
Ha!
The Gay Numbers
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): Well, in fairness, that ignorance in America about the rest of the world runs across the race lines. I was once told by a fellow black guy (and have heard it from other black folk as well) they are angry at the gay movement for trying to usurp the tactics of the black civil rights movement. That these are things that Martin Luther King came up with. I m dumbfounded by their lack of knowlege that MLK actually got his ideas for non-violence from Gandhi. It’s like the world begins and ends here. Suffering also apparently begins and ends here. Because when I point out events like the Khmer Rouge, etc people have no idea what I am discussing. I am American. I am pretty cluless of a lot of world history. I don’t even think that ignorance is per se a big deal except for if I tried to pass of my ignance as a virtue. My problem with my fellow brothers and sisters is where they don’t know they are ignorance, and when they find out, they act like they are proud of their ignorance or debate you to continue their ignorance. I actually had someone debate me that MLK did not discover the non-violence ideas by reading about Gandhi’s actions.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@The Gay Numbers:
“My problem with my fellow brothers and sisters is where they don’t know they are ignorance, and when they find out, they act like they are proud of their ignorance or debate you to continue their ignorance.”
Exactly. Just admit this. I’m not being odd or crazy. I don’t know ecetera about this or that but just say you no ‘shit’.
Hey, black or white, I just can’t believe people are getting away with some historical comments here….pretty odd…
Anyways, have you read ‘A terrible beauty-The people and Ideas that shaped the modern mind…A history’ by Peter Watson
This guy is british BUT he has a perception about the US and the ‘rest world’….
Sigh
Megs
@The Gay Numbers: It is not that black Americans claim the ownership of non-violence– virtually every religious practice from the Abrahamic to the Eastern, has non-violence as a fundamental tenet. And Tich Nhat Hanh was just as influential as Mohandas Ghandi upon MLK– as are the hundreds of examples throughout history. Next time you lecture the black people on MLK, you might want to inform yourself.
Your essential point, that white gay males should be able to appropriate the African American struggle as equivalent to their own, is ridiculous. It is not. White gay men have not been kept from voting, there are not hordes of celebrating adults at their lynchings. They have not been slaves in this country. Indentured servants? Perhaps– but not loud and proud GAY indentured servants. They are not redlined for bank loans, they are not denied service or housing on sight. They own Fortune 500 companies, and can enjoy their racism and their privilege as cavalierly as their het contemporaries. They get to hire their friends, so long as they’re white, as John from England so eloquently stated. Even their stereotypes are less toxic.
Black gay men? Most know this. But their multi-strata of struggle doesn’t serve you, so it’s largely ignored.
Tsk tsk.
Ben
SPAT ON THE GAYS? REALLY????
Charles J. Mueller
@Megs:
“Your essential point, that white gay males should be able to appropriate the African American struggle as equivalent to their own, is ridiculous. It is not.”
Thank you for making my point. That was exactly what I said in the second paragraph of my post. You’ve just confirmed the typical black view that “My suffering is bigger than your suffering, so what the fuck are you complaining about?”
And you accuse me of being a racist?
What of your vesting so heavily in your too obvious hatred of white people.
Have you yourself not just played the race card?
Charles J. Mueller
@Megs:
“I do mourn the Roma (or as you ignorantly refer to them as ‘gypsies’).”
No sympathy for the queers, however, judging from your snarky remarks.
There is nothing worse than an pompous blow-hard (read schmuck) who attempts to make himself look good at the expense of others. The charge of ignorance usually emanates from the lips of those who are themselves quite uninformed and are trying desperately to cover for their own ignorance.
Its called Google. Look into it.
FYI, smartass, the word Gypsy is synonymous with Roma or Romany, which has been in use since the 15th Century and is still in use today. Eether/eyether is correct, depending on which way you’d like to pronounce the word either. Neether/nyther (neither) is NOT indicative of ignorance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gypsy
You, Sir, are a flaming flamer who loves to flame for the sheer joy of flaming. I hope that sentence doesn’t addle your brain too much.
Nice try though.
Charles J. Mueller
@Megs:
“black people were considered the sons of Ham, and not worthy of their god.”
Gays are considered an abomination by Christians and not worthy of their god.
No appropriation here of the African American struggle as equivalent to our (gays) own, however. No, Siree!
Like comparing apples and oranges.
Charles J. Mueller
@Megs:
“there are not hordes of celebrating adults at their lynchings”
Izzatso?
Well then, I guess the public hanging of John Alherton, Bishop of Waterforde and his lover, John Child for sodomy doesn’t count.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Atherton
Two teenagers identified only by their initials as M.A. and A.M., were hanged on July 19 in Edalat (Justice) Square in the city of Mashhad in north-eastern Iran, on the orders of Court No. 19., don’t count either.
http://beirut.indymedia.org/ar/2005/07/2999.shtml
The Knight von Hohenberg and his squire were burned at the state in Zurich 1492. Doesn’t count.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_LGBT_people
King Edward was executed by the insertion of a red hot poker into his anus in 1327. Of no consequence.
http://shadows.nd2cre8.com/his_102/homosexuality.htm
And of course, there was that white boy, Matthew Shepard who….oh well, you know the story already, don’t you? No suffering here, was there?
As of October, 2007, homosexual acts are punishable by death in seven countries in the world.
Not only is it legal. It is called for and sanctioned by religion.
Now tell me that fuzzy, warm story about how gays do not suffer like blacks do.
I do so love it.
The Gay Numbers
@Megs: You equate gay as white. With that, you lost me.
I am a black guy. I live in a black working class neighborhood. I grew up in a rural area that was poor ( as in I didn’t have running water poor) that was majority black. That’s why I don’t have much patience for bullshit. I do take what I undertand from life without much orthodoxy. You are an orthodoxy. That orthodoxy is “black suffering” as unique beyond all others.
You sound a little bougie to me. Black folk trying to prove how black they are by saying stupid shit. Again- gay does not equal white. I expect that from straights, but not fellow gays of color.
And, no, the stupid shit some white folks do, does not justify preventing gays from using metaphors regarding discrimination. They are metaphors. Metaphors are not claiming that everything was the same.
I say all of this to say “who the fuck do you think I am?” I am not going to listen to your ying-yang shit that somehow black pain is such that we ignore gay pain.
It’s especially ironic that you would choose to do this when I am discussing understanding the world. Yes, there are a lot of silver spoon in their mouths privileged gays in America. So fucking what?
Does that justify the blue collar black gays being denied our rights to marriage in America? The highest percentage of gay families, possibly, in the country is in the Bronx. Last I checked, the Bronx has a high percentage of people of color who ae gay.
Dumb stuff that white folks do is how I label your post. Does it justify the Paragraph 175 type legislation out of Nigeria? How about the killing of gays in Iran? Hell, lets go for easy – does it justify that guy who just got killed down the street because he “looked gay”?
I just got the word- Gandhi’s family wants its non-violent techniques back or, at least, some share of the responsibility for the black civil rights movment. They didn’t help us out for you to turn it into a blacks only affair.
Charles J. Mueller
@The Gay Numbers:
“I say all of this to say “who the fuck do you think I am?” I am not going to listen to your ying-yang shit that somehow black pain is such that we ignore gay pain.”
You said it far more eloquently than I ever could have, The Gay Numbers. I have the deepest of respect for you for having made that statement. My hat’s off to you, Sir.
Megs just doesn’t seem to get that we are our brothers’ and sisters’ keepers. We are all in this together.
Megs
@Charles J. Mueller:
This didn’t happen with Matthew Shephard.
[img]http://www.americanlynching.com/pic6.htm[/img]
Historically, globally, there have been celebrations of murder and mayhem. Even with the invitation of Warren to the inauguration, and the passing of prop 8; being a white man is still a helluva lot easier than being black. That is simply the facts.
Being anti-racist and anti-homophobic should be symbiotic. It clearly isn’t to most of you chuckleheads who responded to my posts.
I’ll leave you to wallow in your shit. But I will continue to fight for the equal rights of everyone, without falsely claiming black people as The Enemy.
The Gay Numbers writes: Yes, there are a lot of silver spoon in their mouths privileged gays in America. So fucking what?
I’ll tell you what. It comes at the expense of opportunity and equality for everyone. Look around you. Is it really all right that black people are always expected to do with less? Is it really just fine for privileged white men to wrongly and self-righteously declare their oppressors are primarily the most oppressed? Fuck no.
There are more homophobic whites in this country than black people, but it is black people you blame. What is wrong with you schizos?
There is no reasoning with you. Too many of you are racists, and too many of you aren’t willing to actually coalesce against societal evil. That includes homophobia, by the way. But most of you would rather keep the status quo, so long as you just get yours. Well, fuck you very much.
The Gay Numbers
@Charles J. Mueller: In fairness to Meg, the poster is right about a high percentage of white gays pissing down on people of color just like straight whites do. I have seen what Med describes. Thus, Meg describes the problem correctly as far as describing the problem for people of color goes.
Where Meg goes wrong is to generalize the problem of gays as white. To make a general solution on race about gays as Meg is making regarding discrimination against people of color is faulty logic. We can not solve the problems of the one class (blacks) by denying the problems of the other (gays). Not the least of which reasons is that there is a lot of overlap. But more than this, it blinds us to the fact that there is pain for both. In short, her position leads to more pain. Not less.
Megs
@The Gay Numbers: I have NOT ONCE denied gay oppression. I have, in fact, pointed out that the acceptance of racism is too commmon among white gays. That is not “more pain”. It is the reality.
You do not serve US, PEOPLE; when you accept racism, but fight homophobia. You conversely cannot fight racism, and support homophobia. Within that ethical premise, until white privilege is acknowledged by those who enjoy it and those who do not; standing on the backs of the racially oppressed is a Pyrrhic victory.
The struggle against racism and homophobia should be one of alliance, not competition. Why? Because it’s the right thing to do. It doesn’t alter the fact that white privilege assuages homophobic bias, or that blackness does not ease racism. These are truths, not conjecture.
I don’t equate gay with white. But I know racism when I see it, and there’s plenty of it on Queerty. This is mirrored in the gay community. That is why you cannot equate the black american struggle with the homophobic one. They are not the same. That does not mean that they do not have parallels. They are simply not equivalent.
Anyone who says that’s not so, is full of shit. And I would venture that painting all black hets as homophobic biblioholics is not only a nasty lie, but will not get you what you want.
Charles J. Mueller
Martyr complex
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In psychology, a person who has a martyr complex desires the feeling of being a martyr for its own sake, seeking out suffering or persecution because it feeds a psychological need.
In some cases, this results from the belief that the martyr has been singled out for persecution due to exceptional ability or integrity.[1] Theologian Paul Johnson considers such beliefs a topic of concern for the mental health of clergy.[2] Other martyr complexes involve willful suffering in the name of love or duty. This has been observed in women, especially in poor families, in codependant or abusive relationships.[3][4] It has also been described as a facet of Jewish-American folklore.[5]
The desire for martyrdom is sometimes considered a form of masochism.[6] Allan Berger, however, described it as one of several patterns of “pain/suffering seeking behavior”, including asceticism and penance.[7]
Listening to yor screeds, one would be tempted to come to the conclusion that a Martyr Complex is, indeed, what you are suffering from.
The Gay Numbers writes: “Yes, there are a lot of silver spoon in their mouths privileged gays in America. So fucking what?”
You replied: “I’ll tell you what. It comes at the expense of opportunity and equality for everyone. Look around you. Is it really all right that black people are always expected to do with less?”
Do you really, honestly, buy into the notion that because someone else has more than you do, that this is the reason why you have less? Sorry Jack. That smacks of pure communism, or just out and out jealousy.
I am a gay, 72 year old, retired, middle-class white man. I am not poor, but I am not rich. I have worked for those possessions and things that make me happy. I don’t ache for the things that are beyond my financial ability to have and I have absolutely no problem with those who have more than I do.
Whatever makes them happy, is my motto. And, if I should want more than I already have, then all I need to do is figure out how to go about making that a possibility. Going back to work. Taking two jobs. Opening a business. Coming up with a brainy idea like Mr. Gates did. Whatever. There are more millionaires being created every single day of the year in America than ever before.
Mr. Bill Gates has so much more than I do. Should I feel that it is his fault that I do not have as much as he does? Should I be jealous? Should I be resentful? But most importantly, does his having so much, reduce the quantity of anything available to me?
Are there less nice homes available to me because he has taken one of them, or maybe even two or three if he feels he can afford them?
Will I lose the opportunity of owning Rolls Royce or Merceces Benz automobile because he may own several of them?
Will I not be able to find decent furniture because he furnished his house copiously and opulently?
Will there be a shortage of expensive, fine tailored suits, shirts and shoes because he has closet full of them?
Will there be no Rolex gold watches left in case I decide I would like to have one, simply because he has one?
Will there be a shortage of CEO positions because he occupies one?
And, will I be denied my social security check next month because has so much money that he has caused a shortage of it?
You make a totally ridiculous and unsupportable argument that because others have, ergo you are denied of having.
Mr. Gates did not sit around, like you, lamenting about how much opportunity and equality others have, while he was “expected to do with less”.
That’s pure bullshit and you know it. He believed in hard work and hard work got him where he is.
And the fact is, people like Mr. Gates created opportunity for others. Many people have good paying jobs, security and benefits because of Mr. Gates. He took nothing away fro anyone. All he did is give back to society while creating his own private wealth.
That’s the American dream in operation, kiddo and there are thousands of creative men just like him that create the industrial base and financial complex that keeps all but 7% of our Americans citizens bringing home a paycheck each week.
So, I ask you? What were you doing while Mr. Gates was working his butt off to become the success story he is?
Writing feeling sorry for yourself trash on a blog?
The Gay Numbers
@Megs:
Look I got to meet people for lunch in the morning after just finsishing some really boring research so I will make this quick:
A) You continue to fuck with what I wrote. I let it go the first time because I thought maybe you had an agenda so I addressed the agenda.
B) Since you made the mistake twice, I am going to respond: I don’t appreciate people fucking with what I say when I make myself clear about meaning. Respond to what I say. Do not make shit up and respond to the stuff you make up as if it’s what I said. Simply a matter of respect.
B) Never do I say I accept racism to fight against homophobia. I actually said they are separate issues that need to be addressed.
C) I agree about the alliance part, but re-read your own comments:
“Your essential point, that white gay males should be able to appropriate the African American struggle as equivalent to their own, is ridiculous. It is not. White gay men have not been kept from voting, there are not hordes of celebrating adults at their lynchings. They have not been slaves in this country. Indentured servants? Perhaps– but not loud and proud GAY indentured servants. They are not redlined for bank loans, they are not denied service or housing on sight. They own Fortune 500 companies, and can enjoy their racism and their privilege as cavalierly as their het contemporaries. They get to hire their friends, so long as they’re white, as John from England so eloquently stated. Even their stereotypes are less toxic.
Black gay men? Most know this. But their multi-strata of struggle doesn’t serve you, so it’s largely ignored.
Tsk tsk.”
What the fuck does any of that have to do with using a metaphor regarding separate but equal? You are just blathering on about things that piss you off about race. They are things that piss me off too. I just don’t use the one set of emotions to block out the other set.
I don’t give a fuck about race when discussing f gay rights. It’s about gay rights.
I don’t give a fuck if someone is gay or straight when I am discussing race. That’s an irrelevant benchmark for understanding racism.
Get it? if you don’t , rather than misinterpreting me, why don’t you just ask.
Charles J. Mueller
@Megs:
I suggest that you check out the following article in Wikipedia illustrating the tremendous gains that African Americans have made in this country. Prominence, fame and success came countless numbers of black people who were willing to work for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American
We just elected a black man to the Oval Office in Washington D.C. If black people represent 30% of the population, it is obvious that a lot of white people voted for him or he wouldn’t have made it. Not everyone in America is a racist, as you seem to think.
By contrast, we gays do not even have a seat in Mr. Obama’s Cabinet. Forget about a gay President.
Blacks can serve in the military. Gays cannot.
Blacks can worship in any church they choose to and be accepted by their god. Gays cannot.
Blacks can live anywhere they choose to and not be thrown out of their apartment because they are black. Gays can be thrown out of their apartments simply for being gay.
Blacks don’t have to fear being fired simply for being black. Gays can be fired simply for being gay.
Blacks don’t have to live in fear of being bashed, beaten and killed on the streets of our cities in America. Gays do.
But, in spite of the foregoing, you are gonna stick with your position: “That is why you cannot equate the black american struggle with the homophobic one. They are not the same. That does not mean that they do not have parallels. They are simply not equivalent.”
It’s obvious that you already made up your mind. You don’t want to be confused with the facts.
Robert, NYC
Even if Obama were to get Civil Union legislation through at the federal level, what about those states that don’t have them or ban them? He thinks that’s equality? NOT! We’re being thrown under the bus, over and over. Unless these unions are mandated in every state,then what he is doing is sanctioning legal segregation. Shame on Obama and Biden, and shame on the rest of the democratic party for supporting it. Separate is NEVER equal, plain and simple. He should know better, more than anyone else.
Brian Miller
Your comment is filled with such aggressive ignorance of American history, it is not worthy of a response.
Meg is an idiot who is pissed off that she doesn’t have the Gold Medal in the Oppression Olympics.
Her claim that “white gays” are pampered and thus their rights aren’t important is about as valid as claiming that black Americans in the 1940s were pampered compared to Holocaust-era European Jews, and thus black Americans don’t deserve equality until every wrong against the Jewish people is first resolved.
Rock
From FreeRepublic: I am getting tired of hearing gays and left-leaning Democrats refer to anyone who opposes gay marriage as being “homophobic” or even “bigoted.” I voted yes on Proposition 8 because I believe marriage is a bond between one man and one woman. For the sake of my children and their children’s future I will do everything I can to protect the institution of marriage and family for them. That doesn’t make me a bigot or homophobic. That makes me an American exercising my right to vote.
Having the Rev. Rick Warren give the inaugural invocation is a good choice. My only concern is that Warren stays true to his faith and his convictions.
Ruben Rueda
Darrien
@Rock
Exercising a vote in a democratic process is always a good idea, even if I disagree with the choice you made. However, I’m confused: even if you believe that a marriage is between one man and one woman, how does it affect you if someone’s belief is different to yours? Realistically, what will happen if gays get married? If you’re not gay, I can’t understand how it will have any effect on you. Also, you cite your children and your children’s future. Once again, what’s that got to do with anything? The only way it would have any impact on you is if one of your children is gay and you hate him/her to such an extent that you want to deny him/her the right to get married. It doesn’t speak very highly of you if your hate your own children that much. So does any of this make you a homophobe or a bigot? I don’t know. You’d have explain more about why you think gays getting married is such a problem. But, given the antipathy you have towards your children’s potential happiness and security in the future, it makes you – again, potentially – a really crappy parent.
Robert, NYC
Darrien, I agree. What these religious bigots can’t get through their thick skulls is that civil marriage has absolutely NOTHING to do with religious marriage. This one man one woman nonsense doesn’t wash any more. If religious bigots use the procreation ability to justify denying marriage equality to gay couples then they should also deny the right to all straight couples who choose not to procreate or can’t. Marriage was NOT instituted by this entity called God….it was invented by men. They maintain that because God created Eve to bring to Adam that it was in and of itself the first marriage. This also means that those who believe in the creationist fairy tale, must also believe in incest, assuming that Adam and Eve were the first parents who begat children. Surely, in the creationist tale, for the world to have been populated, does it not imply that the children of Adam & Eve must have committed incest among their siblings, four of which we know were all males and in turn would imply that they must have had sex with their own mother. Go figure.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Charles J. Mueller:
“black people who were willing to work for it.”
Ohhhh…
Check this link, it’s interesting and very true BUT all blacks were taken to the south to work in plantations right? So they are arguably culturally southern.
Now there behaviour etc, apathy to work and all that Jazz. Is that a black thing or an original White Southern thing? ie, from the redneck culture…originally the scots-irish apachalian people?
So when you say that statement above…I wonder were it is coming from…?
What do you think would happen if the irish (with a strong culture!) were made into slaves NOT by the anglo-saxons (like th were) but the Africans, IN Africa?
Chaos no?
Give African Americans a little leeway…I’m not saying to wrap em up in cotton wool but you have these people from West Africa, with a VERY different culture to White Southeners (i.e they never drunk, were loud, or had an apathy to work) AND you take them to a culture that they are shoved a bible and a new way of life.
Dude, this isn’t easy.
The Jews have been displaced for centuries, so they’ve had centuries to start believing in themselves.
Blacks haven’t.
Life isn’t black and white. Geez, I’m reading this book about Ancient greek and sometimes I wish we could go back to those times when there was an honesty-however horrid-in what people did.
I reminds me of when Marcus Garvey met up with the KKK and Du Bois got sooo pissed! But Garvey had a good point, ‘I’d rather meet up with people who are honest about their racism, then those that pretend to not care about race’.
It may seem old and dated but I’m not so sure that much has changed in terms of honest views…
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Megs:
Urgh.
Meg you’ve said some great stuff and so very true. Keep going…
All I’ll say is that what I find so disgusting about this whole homophobia, is that sexual acts or relationships between male re PART of human culture…..
Now I don’t CARE what the Bible say, I care about history and our instinctive nature.
what is soo fucked up is the ridiculousness that the church has span about what being gay is. This is NOT right.
It’s irrational.
They KNOW that gays have been around as part of the social make up (enuchs etc) for centuries. I can’t believe the religous crew are allowed to get away with this.
Now with race or being black-it’s all to do with power. Every nation/people wants to be more powerful. Unfortuntately-and something I’m still researching-we have been used as slaves, thus seen as black = poor, in very simplistic terms.
But being gay…it’s not about power or who has what….so you have something that is so intrinsic to human nature been treated as the abomination of all things wrong due to a few puritans who are tenacious enough to seek to power to vent out their issues…
I’m on a train of thought now…but it’s not the same. Blacks, whites, blues need to sort out this homophobia as it is illogical.
I said it.
To be homophobic is illogical and does NOT make any logical sense.
mark
Obama’s transition team treated LGBT leaders with NO RESPECT in the selection of Warren, as an Obama supporter I feel Warren is allowed to SPIT ON me on Day One.
As a compromise for gays,lesbians, and our straight allies equally offended, I ask those attending the Inaugural turn your back to Warren and kiss the partner of your choice through the Invocation. This compromise is for those SO ANGRY they no longer want to watch or attend the Inaugural vs. those who want to act as if NOTHING has insulted them.
Obama needs to know LGBTs worked hard to get him elected, and we will decide what we accept and what we DON’T.
Dawster
This idea that we have been spat upon while we are also being represented for the first time in American history is about the most bigoted and hypocritical attack I have witnessed in my lifetime and I am wholeheartedly ashamed at how far this has gone.
Congratulations, my fellow gays and lesbians. You have officially ducked stones thrown at us, only to turn around and throw stones at someone else. Exactly who here has the right to say shit about a president who has made us a part of his cabinet, part of his agenda, and a voting point… AND STILL WON THE ELECTION? We have come farther than those on who’s police-beaten shoulders we now stand. We will go farther, yes – but Warren is by no means a set-back in any way.
The hypocrisy of “our way or no way” is about as shameful as any minority group can display. This is in NO way a “make it or break it” factor. Yet, the drama of it all is far bigger then the actual event.
Fear and narrow closed-mindedness have become your bullets – the very bullets used by idiots like Warren. The world (unfortunately) does not, nor will it ever, revolve around us. And now it has become an “I’ve been slighted” parade.
I would like to congratulate all of my fellow brothers and sisters in becoming something we once preached against. You have now joined the 75% of the black community of California, about 85% of church-going Christians, and the majority of the Republican party. This bigoted, drama-queen hypocrisy is preventing our voice to be taken seriously.
sparkle obama
lady bunny speaks for me:
December 26, 2008
GAYS: GET IT STRAIGHT!
The other night I got so horny that I posted an ad on Craig’s List and arranged to hook up with several gentleman callers. Right before I started painting my mug, I remembered that I was low on condoms and popped out to the drug store to pick some up. Once there, I realized that I’d better get both regular sized and extra large, since you never know how accurate those “AOL inches” in personal ads are gonna be. Then I thought, it’s a recession, so why not be thrifty and buy the 32-count boxes of each size since you always save buying in bulk!
I could see the puzzled look in the cashier’s eyes as I plopped down 3 jumbo boxes of different sized Trojans. I’m sure she was thinking “Does your dick change sizes?” and I was all ready with my comeback–“No, but my asshole sure can!”
So let me introduce myself to you as a slut, who prefers multiple sex partners a day than any zany thoughts of holy matrimony which might impede my activity–or rather in my case, passivity. A year ago, Bette Midler came under fire from gay groups for suggesting on Larry King that gay marriage shouldn’t be such a big deal since most of the gays she knew were promiscuous. The truth hurts. Anyhoo, let me also introduce myself as an atheist who values a gay wedding ceremony as much as I do a gay baptism with cosmo’s or a gay communion with low carb wafers.
This gives me a different prospective on gay marriage than most. Due to shame, other depraved card-carrying nympho’s may not be quite as vocal about how laughable gay marriage is for them, so I felt that a certain voice missing from the homo outrage over this Rick Warren gig at the inauguration. I understand that if your goal is to settle down with your lifetime mate, especially if you live in California where you were just yanked away from your newly-wed when Prop 8 won, you could be quite unhinged right about now. But aside from the differences in our personal outlooks, in my view, the protests against Rick Warren’s appearance has been blown waaaaaaaay out of proportion. One problem is that the media always needs a new headline, important or not. This Rick Warren thing kept an Obama’s mistake in the headlines for a good week. Now that they’ve gays have had their sissy hissy fit, the fickle press has moved on to attempt to smear Obama by tying him to Illinois governor Blagojevich’s corruption.
But Obama’s only allotted the controversial pastor a two and a half minute speech–not a 4-year cabinet appointment. And the crafty president-elect is balancing out the Warren factor by ending the inauguration with a legendary black civil rights activist who is FOR gay marriage. Try finding another one of those in the mainstream black church. (I’ll wait.) Obama himself doesn’t even support homo nuptials yet he’s giving a contrasting a voice to Rick’s. And of course everyone knows you save the best for last!
Of course, there are sizable benefits in using Rick for the invocation. Perhaps the whole country will be tuning in to see it’s first mixed race president anyway, but those viewers who identify with Rick–ie the extremely backward anti-science bunch– just might soften up towards Obama and ease our nation’s desperately needed return to a more progressive path after 8 dark years of Bush. After the queer backlash, Rick even softened his stance up a little by removing language from his website which banned “unrepentant” gays from his church. Child, don’t you know how I wish I lived in California so that I could grab a boisterous gaggle of drag queens and bare-ass chap-wearing to attend that service, now that we’re allowed in, and turn his Saddleback Church into the Brokeback Church! Can you just imagine how flawlessly we’d speak in tongues after a snort of poppers and a bump of Special K?
Look, Obama is just throwing the evangelicals a bone. So let’s not have the gay community snarling at the man over it–he’s the best hope we have. In defense of Warren’s selection, Obama even declared himself a “fierce” advocate of gay rights–girls, he’s even using queeny Project Runway lingo. That’s a sign of great promise! Do we want to weaken him by forcing him to renege (no racial slur intended) on Rick’s invitation before he’s even inaugurated? Honey, a mixed race man named Hussein has made it into the White House using a brilliant, groundbreaking campaign strategy–shouldn’t we let him at least get into office and start squawking if he tries to throw us under the bus then? Rick’s brief address just doesn’t strike me as a big deal.
Rick’s really made a fool of himself–offering as proof of his gay-friendly attitude that he offered Prop 8 protestors water and doughnuts? Darlin’, I like to eat just as much as the portly pastor, and that pig knows as well as this one that doughnuts are served with coffee or milk–NEVER with water. What an insult! Stop the press! Call the HRC! Doughnuts and water?!? And Rick’s support of Prop 8 was based on a ludicrous notion that if it lost, Prop 8 supporters could become victims of hate speech. How completely absurd! But it worked with his large, ignorant congregation.
But even outside of his congregation, how many religions accept us? Despite all of the complexes my dad gave me, I’m glad he also instilled in me the need to question absolutely everything and the strength to stand up to anyone I disagreed with–even a church which thought I was less than because of the sexual orientation I was born with. I wish more gay people would simply abandon a church which looks down on them–and I’m constantly amazed at muslims homosexuals who try to reconcile themselves with a faith which would stone them to death. Get a grip, gays! Almost all religions denounce us as amoral–so why not take away their power and ignore them as the ancient, contradictory fairy tales they are? And thereby devalue religious institutions like marriage? If civil unions offer the same legal rights, I say TAKE ‘EM!
The photo below strikes me as a particularly crazy argument–GOD LOVES GAY MARRIAGE? That’s throwing the ball right back into the evangelicals’ court. Do you think that they’ll ever agree with what a sinner like you thinks God wants?
And if we believe so strongly in separation of church and state, why is a representative of any faith invited to speak at a political function? I’d just as soon hear the mumbo jumbo of one of Obama’s Kenyan witch doctor relatives babbling over a caldron than I would any other Christian holy man. At least it would be more entertaining and could feature well-hung African men bouncing around in skimpy clothing. And I stll have half a box of extra large condoms left–I’m just sayin’!
Before you dismiss the Kenyan idea as far-fetched, let’s not forget how prominent a part Kenyan witch doctors’ have already played in this election. One predicted Obama’s win. And Sarah Palin’s former church was led by a Pastor Muthee, who she thanked for chanting her into the governor of Alaska’s office. Muthee somehow wound his way to Alaska from Africa (?!?!) after the tales of his prowess included chasing a “witch” from Kiambu, Kenya after several car wrecks occured near her house. Maybe Obama can retain Muthee’s services to drive out a D.C. area witch–does Ann Coulter live in Washington?
KENYAN WITCH DOCTOR/PASTOR THOMAS MUTHEE PRAYS OVER SARAH PALIN
Of course, homo’s aren’t the only target of fundamentalists. The morons challenge science! They’re also vehemently anti-abortion and Rick Warren’s particular church does not view spousal abuse as grounds for divorce. So why aren’t women’s groups up in arms over Warren’s pick? Because they weren’t just slapped in the face with a stinging defeat like Prop 8? Or because Rick’s speech isn’t a big deal? Hell, I love to see the gay community angrily making demands. The gay movement often seems finished now that we have gay-themed TV shows on prime time and a perceived cure for AIDS. But choose your battles, people! On the same day that the Human Rights Commission issued a statement condemning Obama’s choice of invocation-giver, George Bush pushed through one of his midnight regulations which allows pharmacy employees to refuse to fill prescriptions which they consider contrary to their religious beliefs. I clocked this madness on Rachel Maddow’s MSNBC broadcast and when Rachel asked Rep. Diana Degette what could be done about the situation, her guest said phone the White House today. Drats! I caught the 11:00 PM broadcast of The Rachel Maddow Show and I don’t think the president’s phone lines were open at that hour. Did the HRC issue a statement about this?
Do you recognize the scope of this new regluation? Some cuckoo Pentecostal cashier could refuse to dispense antibiotics for a child. A woman could be refused the morning after pill and end up forced to have an abortion! A gay man with AIDS could try to refill his life-or-death protease inhibitors only to be told that the born-again pharmacist on duty didn’t approve of his lifestyle! Especially problematic would be rural drug stores where a possibly wheelchair-bound AIDS victim didn’t have the strength or means to hunt down a kinder, if further away pharmacy. Or I can imagine a spaced-out Scientologist denying me my anti-depressants–and if you think I’m bitter now…
So Bush has just enacted a law which could give religious nuts (who also have a problem with science) the right to conceivably kill gay people! Where’s our outcry on that one? I’m sorry, but life or death issues tend to trump matrimonial ones in my book.
I’m filled with joy when gays have the gumption to take to the streets and insist on their rights. It’s just that I’m saddened when we only take to the streets to only demand rights which pertain to us. You want people to care about your right to marry? Then you’ve got to care about issues outside of your own community. We’re in a war which a vast majority of citizens no longer support. Our tax dollars are being spent to kill innocent Iraqis at this very moment. A chunk of ice the size of a large city broke off of the North Pole this year. And you’re whining because you’re afraid that you might not inherit your lover’s silverware because of your inability to marry? (I know that there are dreadful situations where dying lovers are not allowed to have their lovers visit them if the patient’s family disapproves. Just making a point.) I’ll never have children, but I don’t want to see other people’s children dying courtesy of my tax dollars. Or their grandchildren unable to draw a breath due to man-made climate change. I suppose there are gays who also protest the illegal war in Iraq and global warming in addition to Prop 8, but for most of us to only pop out with a sign when it concerns same-sex marriage strikes me as selfish. If you expect straights to care about your rights, then you need to be a caring person about the issues which affect us all. It’s not just because of my promiscuous nature that gay marriage is way down on the priority list when both people and our planet are dying by our own hands.
Michelle Obama stated during the primaries that “our souls are broken.” I don’t know exactly how one’s soul is legislated back to health, but her words struck a chord with me. A dissonant, disturbing chord. We are a nation which casts more votes for American Idol than for our own president. We’re a nation who doesn’t have a clue what the writ of habeus corpus means, much less that Bush has ripped it away from us, so that we no longer have the right to ask “Why have you put in me in jail?” For years, straights, gays and everything in between have sat back and done little except watch the nightmares of the Bush administration in between updates on Britney’s breakdown and Paris Hilton’s jail sentences. The whole executive and legislative branch can grind to a halt over a travesty like the debacle of vegetable Terry Schiavo, but we don’t have a clue what’s really going on until it’s often too late, like with Bush’s frightful new midnight pharmacy regulations. And how can a democracy, the system we’re supposedly fighting to install in Iraq, function if it’s voters are largely clueless?
Obama won because the country felt like he was the only candidate equipped to deal with the economic crisis after McCain had declared the economy “fundamentally strong”. Neither candidate dwelled on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan in the last few weeks of the campaign. How tragic! For a “Christian” nation? We don’t mind ignoring that pesky THOU SHALT NOT KILL commandment while paying to kill foreigners as long as we sense that this new president can remedy the economy. That way, we can continue to inexpensively drive next door to our neighbor’s house because our car has our cigarettes and cup-holder in it. And don’t you recall something in the Bible about the love of money being sinful? Yet we heed economic issues and ignore the murders of innocents in our names? That’s broken souls for you. With some awfully misguided priorities.
I recently received on email petition asking me to urge Defense Secretary Robert Gates to repeal the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” and allow gays and lesbians to serve in the military. I wrote back that given the current abomination that is the Iraq war and rumblings that our fight in Afghanistan lacks a clear strategy, why on earth would anyone, gay or straight, want to give their life to such ill-conceived fiascos? I remember the last time “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” dominated the gay movement over a decade ago. And while I wholeheartedly agree that homo’s deserve every right that hetero’s have, why would we want the right to kill? The year that this issue was raging, NYC chose as it’s grand marshall a lesbian whose only distinction was that she was kicked out of the military when her sexual orientation became known. In her scary publicity photo, she’d posed in fatigues and sunglasses and was holding a rifle. Well, isn’t that festive for a parade? The same year, Los Angeles chose Carol Channing as their grand marshall. I was so jealous–LA’s choice seemed more fitting than a gun-toting ex-military mama and Carol’s a born-again who’s not even gay! Thankfully, our calls for gays in the military died down since we’ve been in an actual war.
But if we gays are now going to make holy matrimony our predominant issue, why did we all seem to miss presidential candidate Denis Kucinich’s interview on LOGO, our most-watched all-gay channel? I saw it and burst into tears at this man’s sincerity and desire to take our side with conviction on this polarizing hot button issue. Although it seems unlikely that a man with features as elfin as his will ever be elected–especially during wartime–Dennis was the only Democratic candidate to fully support gay marriage. So if gays are so dedicated to same sex marriage, why didn’t he become a cause celebre in the our community–he who solely had the nerve to stand up for our right to wed? Why was there no statement from the HRC when Dennis was denied access to a later debate?
Many gays favored Hillary, for no discernible reason. After Obama nabbed the nomination, I chatted with an employee from a gay rights organization here in New York and asked if he was pleased. He was not. When I asked him why, he told me that he was a Hillary supporter. I prodded him for more info and the only thing he could come up with was “Hillary’s my girl.” Why? A fuzzy feeling she gave them when she walked in the gay pride parade because she wanted your vote? Many gay men are so shallow that I can actually imagine them supporting Senator Clinton because they fancy the notion of a Project Runway challenge in which Hill’s inaugural dress is designed. Who knows? But you can’t vote on a feeling. You must get to know the issues, particularly if the right to marry is the centerpiece of your movement and you’re voting for a candidate who doesn’t support it and never has.
HOW DID HILLARY MANAGE TO ESCAPE THIS DEADLY SCENE INN BOSNIA ALIVE?
“I remember landing under sniper fire. There was supposed to be some kind of a greeting ceremony at the airport, but instead we just ran with our heads down to get into the vehicles to get to our base.”
–Hillary Clinton, speech at George Washington University, March 17, 2008.
As I mentioned, Rick Warren has been given a two and a half minute speech at the inauguration, not a cabinet position. But Hillary did receive a cabinet position, and one which she’s unsuited for. Don’t you remember that she tried to trump Obama’s foreign policy experience with her own–and her example of foreign expertise was dodging bullets at an airport in Bosnia? Meanwhile, there’s video on every news channel of Hillary deplaning on a sunny day as local children practically skipped up to her on the tarmac. Not only was this a bold-faced lie which made her a national laughing stock, if she needs to conjure this easily disproved fib as evidence of her vast foreign policy experience, then the sleazy snake has zero foreign policy experience. Even if she’d been telling the truth and had sought cover from sniper fire, then plenty of gang members and other criminals would be equally qualified to represent out nation abroad. I don’t think the fact that Senator Clinton voted to invade Iraq will endear her to the Middle Eastern nations we need to make amends with most, and India’s strong ties with the Clintons via donations to her husband’s foundation will make the India/Pakistan situation even stickier, as the two neighbors seem to be gearing up for battle as I type this. And we’ve got a brand new partisan Secretary of State to handle the situation!
After Bush’s reign of error, we’re hated worldwide. And maybe a planes didn’t crash into buildings in your city, but they did in mine and I don’t want Hillary, who took the wrong side on the war issue, trying to clean up a deeply-rooted international mess which she helped to create. And if the mess isn’t cleaned up yesterday, we’re going to have new generations of terrorists which we’ve created dropping by to introduce themselves to us. Possibly even before rising oceans erode Manhattan, Los Angeles and Miami Beach and New Orleans. And who can afford to move in this distressed economy? If we can move, and manage to make it through our failing infrastructure to dry ground, we won’t be able to find any work. 40 million US citizens can’t afford to pay their utility bills this month. In the winter. And the Minnesota Senate race rages on, a month after the votes were cast. Of course, after the last two presidential elections were stolen, we’re used to it. We’re becoming a banana republic without the fucking bananas. And you’ve got time to worry about a two and a half minute speech?
POSTED BY LADY BUNNY AT FRIDAY, DECEMBER 26, 2008
mark
dawster,
You can do as you choose, savor every motherf*ckin drop of Warren’s spit. If you think your lecturing changed any minds, I seriously doubt it. We aren’t a community who reacts well to taking orders.
sparkle,
I have no wish to be married, but for those men and womyn in our community that want that stability for themselves and their families, they certainly DESERVE to be treated as EQUALS.
You folks who are so intent with playing Mr. NICE gays, don’t count on my joining you in collaboration.
The individuals who began our movement, didn’t collaborate
The individuals who protested, and donated, and screamed f*ckin bloody murder when Reagan left us to die in the streets, didn’t collaborate.
Our HEROES, weren’t the three piece suit queers who MADE NICE.
mark
and another thing sparkle,
If Warren spit on me for 5 minutes or four years, my reaction would be identical.
I’d be equally p*ssed off, and do what ever I could to make it STOP.
boytroy
Obama is the anti-christ, laugh now and watch the evil unfold. Has anyone shaved his head to see if that 666 is there? I had tea with Jesus and he told me that Obama’s mama had dirty sex with Satan and that is why you cannot find his birth certificate, because they don’t record birth records that took place in Hell. Rick Warren has been blinded by the Devil so that he can’t see that he is aiding the son of perdition to take over the world. There ought to be a rapture pretty soon so I am going out now and getting drunk and having bare back sex. Why not? I will be walking those streets of gold any day now! Oh, there are a couple of fine looking Mormon studs that just banged on my door, maybe I will just stay home and let them “save me”. Hope you guys have a nice time the next 7 years! You might want to think about where you want them to put that “sign of the beast” tatoo on your body! Praise Jesus!
Charles J. Mueller
@Rock
“I am getting tired of hearing gays and left-leaning Democrats refer to anyone who opposes gay marriage as being “homophobic” or even “bigoted”.
And I am getting tired of hearing heterosexuals like Rick Warren comparing all homosexuals to pedophiles and people who practice incest and bestiality, with not a shred of evidence to back up those cruel and horrible accusations. If those words are not bigoted and homophobic, then exactly what would you call them, Sir?
How would you like it if we gays were to accuse all of you heterosexual men of being womanizers and all heterosexual women of being prostitutes, when we gays do not have a shred of evidence to support those libelous claims either? Walk. Mile. Shoes.
“That makes me an American exercising my right to vote.”
Ah. And therein is the rub,Sir, You are exercising your right to prevent other people from even having their rights as well as the right to exercise their rights. Do you get my drift, Sir?
We HAD the right to get married in the State of California. You voted that right away without even a trace of remorse or bad conscience and from your comments on this thread, you are obviously loosing no sleep over it.
What you did, Sir, as someone who just committed a very un-American act, was trash the U.S. Constitution. Had I just voted to take a right of yours away in such a cavalier manner, I sincerely doubt that I would thumping my chest and bragging too loudly about being an American. You see, Sir, I dislike very much making myself look like a fool, and I fear that is what you have just done.
And what makes it all the more difficult for we gays to comprehend, is the fact that we have done absolutely nothing to you personally or to your family to either deserve or warrant the foul adn malicious treatment we are receiving from folks like you and Rick Warren.
We have not called you names.
We have not debased or denigrated you in any manner, shape or form.
We have not committed character assassination against members of heterosexual community.
We have not accused you of being an abomination unto the lord or any equivalent thereof.
We have not condemned you to hell.
We are not calling for the criminalization of heterosexuality with death as the penalty.
We are not seeking to take any of your marriage licenses away.
We have not asked anyone for special treatment in any way, manner or form.
We have not asked for anything more than you legally enjoy.
We have not voted to take away any of your civil-rights including the right to marry the person you love.
We have not passed immigration laws that prevent you from being with your multinational partners or petitioning the government for citizenship for them.
We have not passed laws to prevent you from adopting children.
We have passed no laws that deny you of your right to work anywhere you wish without fear of being fired.
We do not deny you the right to enter the church of you choice and worship the god of your choice.
We do not call you heathens, infidels or godless and satanistic people if you choose to be a non-believer.
We do not deny you the right to live wherever you wish (even in the multiple dwellings and apartment buildings that we gays own and operate) or throw you out simply for being heterosexual.
We do not throw our children out of the house and into the street because they are heterosexual.
We do not put our children into “reparative therapy” to convert them into homosexuals.
We do not deny you the right to visit your significant other/partner/spouse whatever when they are in the hospital or the right to make medical decisions for them when they are unable to do so for themselves.
We do not deny you inheritance rights.
And we do not deny you any of the some 1150 rights and financial considerations that heterosexual married couples are entitled to, paid for in part by the taxes we homosexuals pay, and yet are prevented by you from receiving.
“I voted yes on Proposition 8 because I believe marriage is a bond between one man and one woman.” Well, bully for you, Sir.
You, Sir, just justified taking my civil-rights away because of what YOU believe. It’s just so fucking easy to beat-up on faggots, isn’t it, especially when you have the churches and the laws working in tandem to support your bigotry and homophobia.
Yes, just like you exercised your American right to vote my rights away, I have just exercised my American right to call you what I believe you are, Sir.
I believe that what you believe is totally unbelievable. Can you believe that, Sir? Purely on the basis of what you believe, you believe that you can do whatever suits you?
If you believe, like the KKK, that you have the Amuricun right to burn a cross on my front lawn and lynch me, like the whites who thought they had the tight to do that to black people, would you do it, Sir?
Where do your beliefs end my my rights begin?
I do not smoke because I believe it is injurious to my lungs as well as my general health. I also believe that smoking is not good for other people.
How about I introduce a Proposition that would take away your right to smoke…justified solely by what I believe?
I do not imbibe alcoholic beverages because I believe it is injurious to my liver as well as my general health. I also believe that imbibing alcoholic beverages is not good for other people.
How about I introduce a Proposition that would take away your right to imbibe alcoholic beverages…justified solely by what I believe.
Would you buy that Sir? And would you not be calling me some names of you own for even trying to pull such a stunt on you?
Oh, and by the way, would you mind terribly if I voted on your right to live where you like, work where you like and worship as you like?
Whether you realize it or, by voting Yes on Proposition 8, you have in fact, voted away from us, all of the aforementioned civil-rights I enumerated earlier.
Does that also make you feel more like an American, Sir?
Dawster
in the back of my mind i keep thinking ‘if i were going to be inaugurated, i would probably have a very anti-left preacher pray first… to end the Bush era, and have a pro-left preacher end the ceremony to usher in a new, progressive leader.’
i don’t know, i just find it poetic.
regardless, the decision of warren WAS SAD AND DISAPPOINTING, so don’t get me wrong on that. but Obama isn’t just OUR president. we don’t own him. we barely made the election for him. he has spoken about more gay issues and defending us OUTSIDE OF GAY VENUES than any other presidential hopeful in the history of America. now, he spends most of his time trying to respond to our bitching like we are the Concerned Women of America.
anyone that uses this as a “make it or break it” moment is actually working counterproductive to the betterment of the LGBT community, and you should be ashamed of yourself. Obama has put more gay voices and elements in place for the inauguration, his cabinet, policies and policy making, etc. – more than America has ever seen before and you are going to get upset because he’s throwing the right one last bone before he takes over?
this is the exact meaning of the expression “cutting off the nose to spite the face”. or “throwing out the baby with the bathwater” to use another cliche. geez, the man hasn’t even taken office yet, he has no real power, has not done anything wrong, he’s ending the inauguration with a preacher who hates Warren, and already you are throwing away all the elements he has put in place for the gay community AND holding him to an impossible standard…. all for what?
(and on a separate note, i actually do think that MOST – if not all – heterosexuals who are against gay marriage has at least a SOME bit of homophobia in them. i work with two republican rednecks… even they think gays should have the option of getting married. there is no excuse for not accepting gay marriage.)
Charles J. Mueller
An excellent article on the battle for same-sex marriage.
http://volokh.com/posts/1224269295.shtml
Charles J. Mueller
@Rock:
@Rock:
Here is another conundrum for you to ponder.
You are a religious person who believes in God.
I am an Agnostic who believes that there is no God.
I also believe that people who worship an imaginary sky-daddy are, at the worst, raving lunatics and, at the least, folks who are suffering from a chemical imbalance in their brain.
To put it even more succinctly, I believe that they are mentally ill and represent a clear threat to society and the traditions by which we live in addition to being a threat to my lifestyle and the sanctity of my family and my children.
The Atheists decide to call for a Proposition to be voted on at the next election. The Proposition calls for a law that would strike down your Constitutional Right to worship as you please, as guaranteed to you in the American Constitution.
Rudely brushing the Constitution aside, The Proposition passes by a 52% majority vote. You have now just been stripped of one of your basic American Constitution rights. My only justification it and the defense of having done so, is my American right to exercise my vote.
This is precisely what just happened to the LGBT community not only in California, but also in Arizona, Arkansas and Florida.
Having succeeded in ripping away one fundamental civil-rights, I am not content, however. I still feel that people who believe in imaginary friends in the sky, are mentally ill, and as such, represent a clear danger and threat to my traditions, my way of life and my Atheist belief system. I also believe that they are in desperate need “reparative therapyâ€.
Please note my use of the words “Atheist belief systemâ€, deliberately chosen since I cannot prove that there is no God, anymore than you can prove that there is. The playing field is now level.
We insecure Atheist zealots now petition the Supreme Court to close down your places of worship, as you have done in the past with our bars, discos and social gathering places, and invalidate your Baptismal Certificates and your Church issued marriage certificates as you are now calling for in the State of California.
The very same religious right and Mormon who stripped the LGBT community of their Constitutional rights, under the guise of exercising their American right to vote, are now calling for the invalidation of the thousands of same-sex marriages that were performed, legally, in the state of California.
If this allowed to happen, with the sanction of the State no less, then what is to prevent the right of people of color to marry a white person to be placed on referendum to be voted on at the next election…or any other Constitutional right, for that matter?
And, if people of color were to lose the right to marry the person they love, regardless of race or color, would it be justified by your statement that…
That makes me an American exercising my right to vote.
D’oh!
And should you decide to respond to my post, which is also your American right, please do not insult our intelligence by saying “But, it’s not the same thingâ€, because it is the same thing and you know it.
And also please note that I have just acknowledged your American right to disagree with me or protest anything I have said, unlike the Religious Right and the Mormons who are now crying that we do not have the American right to protest in the streets over what you have just done to us and that in so doing, we are “bashing the church†and being “violentâ€.
If by some horrible miscarriage of justice, Proposition 8 is not overturned by the Supreme Court, what will your next referendum call for?
State sanctioned “Reparative therapy†for all non-believers?
And please don’t laugh at that statement. Both non-believers and people who disagreed with the dogma of the Catholic Church were branded heretics during the middle ages and burned at the stake.
It’s the very reason why your ancestors fled England and came to America so they could worship as they please, or not to worship at all if they so chose.
Try to remember that the next time you go to the polls to exercise your American right to vote some more rights of taxpaying American Citizens away.
Robert, NYC
@Charles J. Mueller:
Charles…well said. I too am an agnostic bordering on atheism. In my view, I don’t have to disprove the existence of a supreme deity. The onus is on those who believe it to provide the proof when they use their chosen beliefs to deny me my civil right to marry. Futher, there is absolutely NO religious component in civil marriage or in the divorce courts. In most western societies, civil marriage takes precedence over the religious and in many societies, a religious ceremony is just a solemnization of the civil act and is not mandatory. Lets face facts….all religious belief systems are chosen, nobody comes into this world religious, it is a lifestyle by choice, ours is not. Our government should not be in the business of issuing marriage licenses to people who chose a religious marriage, is that not a direct conflict between church and state?
Maybe we should start a movement to introduce a proposition to bar all religious people from obtaining a government issued marriage license, thereby denying them the more than 1300 rights and privileges government bestows via marriage. Maybe they’d learn something and get to walk in our shoes for a change. Who are these religious bigots to impose their beliefs on the rest of us, many of whom are not even religious?
mark
EVERY member of team Obama and the Congressional Inaugural committee KNEW gays and lesbians would be outraged by Warren…EVERY ONE OF THEM.
They may not have been able to take the temperature of the LGBT community to know HOW ANGRY we would be or HOW long we’d remain angry, and hurt.
NOBODY else determines what makes me p*ssed off, nor do they determine how long I remain p*ssed off. I’ll tell you what has NEVER worked before when I’m p*ssed off. Some asswipe telling me I shouldn’t be angry, or ridiculing me for being angry, or censoring me when I post while angry.
But hey, if you want to try to ridicule me, or censor me, or blame me, or lecture me…there’s always a chance it won’t just make me ANGRIER, and ANGRIER LONGER…so now it comes down to are you feeling lucky…are ya?
Robert, NYC
@mark:
Mark, since passage of Prop. H8 and now Warren’s selection by Obama, the Democratic party are now on notice. Come 2009, they’re going to see a very different LGBT voting block. Our collective gloves will start to come off and they’d better watch out. No more taking our votes and support for granted. If they want out help to get elected, they’d better earn it, and believe me, the democratic party needs our votes, badly. Equality organizations need to get tougher and stop with the political correctness, it hasn’t worked. They dump on us, we can dump on them, but better.
The Gay Numbers
@sparkle obama: If you were so comfortable being in your words a “slut” you would not feel the need to tell others what to do.
The only comforting thing I got from your post is that “slut” can be just as judgement as anyone else.
DMC
Tons of gay/bi men of color is getting infected with hiv and scores are dying of AIDS and the white gay community would rather us focus on marriage now that HIV/AIDS doesn’t hit white gay/bi men as hard.
Give me a break. Who cares what happened in the past? I’m looking at whats going on now, and I can say with complete clarity that if you are a LGBT person of color and you’re focusing on marriage as opposed to HIV/AIDS and poverty among our own, you betray your own race. Let the white gays fight their fight. We ought to fight for marriage rights once we secure the dignity of our lives.
DMC
@Brian Miller:
After seeing this comment, my last post rings truer.
If you’re not white in the gay community, you’re nothing.
LGBT people of color, you’re issues aren’t being focused on enough. How can you expect to have your relationships honored when you’re life is not honored. White gay men have moved past the fight for basic rights while hiv/aids, poverty, mental illness, and homelessness sweeps through our communities.
DMC
@Qjersey:
100% correct.
The Gay Numbers
@DMC: Your post is retarded. How exactly is marriage to HIV reduction? How are you are going to spread HIV by fighting for marriage. Peo who get married aren’t monogamous necessarily, and people who don’t get married are not necessarily seeing multiple partners having unprotected sex. The worse one can say is that one has nothing to do with the other. I wish you peo who feel like your issue isn’ get enough attention would stop seeing this as a zero sum game. My gues sis you are an Obamabot trying to push what he describes on his site as a “gay issue”.
Charles J. Mueller
@Robert, NYC:
I could not agree with you more, Robert. None of us should have to disprove the existence of a supreme deity, no more than we should have to disprove the existence of Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy…all of which nothing more than silly, childish beliefs.
Unfortunately, their strength comes from their sheer numbers which they use as leverage to deny us our civil-right to marry.
You are absolutely right. Civil marriage does exist outside of religious marriage. It always, has going back even as far as Roman and Greek times. It was not until the 7th Century, that the Catholic Church horned it’s way into the marriage business. And make no mistake about it, a business it is to the Church. It’s a giant money-maker.
It infuriates me no end when some ignoramus gets up on a dias or podium, before a battery of cameras and microphones and pompously proclaims that religious marriage is a five-thousand year old tradition.
That would be as old as the world they claim was “created” by God. No doubt, they regard Adam and Eve as the very first “marriage”. Performed by God. In the garden of Eden. Near an a tree of forbidden fruit. And a lecherous snake hanging from it’s branches looking on. Very macabre.
And with that first union, we saw the birth of incest by their progeny. Looked upon by the church as a sin today, why was it not considered to be a sin at the very beginning?
Questions, question. Always with the questions I’m making. It was questions that got me thrown out of Sunday School.
I never grieved over that for a single moment. It was the biggest favor the Catholic Church ever did for me. 😉
What angers me even more, is that no one challenges these liars or corrects them because all these believers, believe every word they are told by these hucksters, hook, line and sinker, just like the filthy lies and comparisons Rick Warren is using to demonize the LGBT community.
If we were to say half of the things we are regularly accused of by these people, we would be having out pants sued off for libel and character assassination. They get away with it scott free.
To listen to the religious bigots, they make it sound like they were born in the grace of God to be a Catholic, Methodist, Protestant, Jew whatever while making a case that we choose our lifestyle, when it is completely the other way around as you point out. And there is nothing unique about their particular religious calling either. It was dumped on them by their parents. The poor kids didn’t even have a say in the matter, no more than they had a say in the names bestowed upon them.
Frankly, I don’t know what the solution to this problem is, Robert. I can think of all kinds of changes that might be made in the marriage business, but the religious kooks have hi-jacked marriage, made it into their own and are not about to loosen their grip on it no matter what anyone says. It’s just another one of their many control tools to keep their flock in line. Power is intoxicating and once attained, ultimately corrupts.
Sadly, hate is a very profitable business too for the Church. As long as they have someone to hate, they have a target to focus that hate on and can ask their flock for as much money as necessary to “fight” them. Nothing has been done to them by us, mind you, but that doesn’t matter. They can “make up” things to get all the flocks feathers all ruffled up and the money will come pouring in like a deluge, as we just witnessed in California.
Not for one single second, did even one of those people who voted Yes on Proposition 8, give a thought to the 32,000 children that starved to death each of the days they were waging war on the LGBT community. It was the furthest thought from their minds, I can assure you.
Yes, I too ask, who are these religious bigots to impose their beliefs on the rest of us, many of whom are not even religious?
And what gives them the right?
Charles J. Mueller
@The Gay Numbers:
I caught those retarded posts by DMC too, The Gay Numbers.
I didn’t want to give dignity to his comments with a response.
They’re simply not worthy of one.
DMC
You @The Gay Numbers:
You COMPLETELY took my post out of context. If all you can do is twist my words, fine, but don’t pretend your doing anything more than that. I said there is an epidemic of HIV/AIDS in the gay/bi black and latino community. If declaring the deaths of people more important than gay marriage fine. Call my post retarded. But your only being typical.
I’m saying that marriage shouldn’t be on the top of the list for LGBT people of color.
And this is what I’m talking about, WHITE GAY PEOPLE couldn’t even give two shits about the lives of LGBT people of color. Obviously your not having any problems with your issue because its the main one being fought for.
DMC
If you’re not white in the gay community, you’re nothing.
DMC
Its time for black/latino LGBT people to start taking more care of whats going on in their own back yard because IT IS a zerosum game. What is marriage to black and latino people if we’re dying before we get to the alter. C’mon. Tell me. The truth remains the truth. It might be hard to swallow, but its still the truth.
Robert, NYC
@Charles J. Mueller:
Charles, exactly so. I find it incredible that these same religious cultists deliberately select one verse in Leviticus to use against us, yet while claiming they believe in the “scriptures”, deliberately ignore those parts that put all of them in a very bad light, in fact if they held to everthing quoted therein, there would probably be no religious cults, period. I use the following website (www.fallwell.com) to arm myself against these bigots and hypocrites. I give it right back to them. I was once told by one of them that Adam & Eve begat 55 children….yes 55…..even though we all know that it would be a physical impossibility for one women to do that. I challenged him on it and his response was…”well, at that time, women were much stronger and with god….anything is possible”. Preposterous to say the least. Many of the right wing evangelicals and fundamentalists also dismiss the old testament to get them off the hook when challenged when they state..”the old testament is the jewish part of the bible and has no significance to christians”. How convenient for them, yet they cite Leviticus over and over with impunity. I also remind them that the new testament never mentioned anything about same-sex marriage or gay people either, of course, they ignore that too, nor did Jesus say anything about us. The term “homosexuality” wasn’t even known at that time.
The only way we can put a stop to them is to start out by holding our political leaders’ collective feet to the fire. Our political system, unlike any other in western societies, compels any candidate running for office to declare his or her religious beliefs. There is no place at the political table for atheists or agnostics and certainly no candidate running for office would ever get elected. I don’t understand why this has become a litmus test to run. Candidates have to stop kow-towing to the bigots as Obama has done and we have to put them (the democrats) on notice that they can no longer take our votes for granted, votes which none of them have really earned. In 2009 and beyond, the gloves MUST come off, no more making nice. I’m sick and tired of being thrown under the bus and I’m equally sick and tired of having my life dehumanized and scapegoated for society’s ills and relegated to second class citizenship which Obama supports. Religious cultist beliefs belong in only two places, in the home and in a house of worship. They have absolutely NO place in the public or political arena. After all, theirs is a chosen lifestyle, ours is not. Enough I say!
Charles J. Mueller
@Robert, NYC:
And here I thought that gays were in the bottom of the bargage pail….
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/148719/an_atheist_as_president_of_the_united.html
Thank you for the link, Robert. I will check it out and get back to you after I’ve had a chance to peruse it.
Danielle
ENDA was a fine idea when it was drafted in the early 1990s. The idea was that bills to amend the Civil Rights Act to include sexual orientation were not making progress in Congress and there was a fear that an amendment would re-open the whole statute.
Fast forward almost 20 years. If ENDA passes and is signed into law next year, then what? It will only prohibit discrimination by private employers. There will be no protections for public accomodations (restaurants, hotels, medical services), housing, credit, public employment and public programs.
Think about whether ENDA is really the bill you want.
Charles J. Mueller
A copy and past from the link below.
“If you imbue religion with any functions and power of the state, you had better pray that the gods will save you from their followers.”
http://speakout.com/activism/opinions/4991-1.html
All other arguments aside, it cannot be said any simpler and more truthfully than that.