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GLITTERBOMB BAIT

UPDATE: NPH Apologizes For Saying “Trannies,” Dan Savage Ridicules Offended Outcry

UPDATE (12/2/11 9:54 AM) - As predicted, bloggers and GLAAD have called out NPH for saying “Trannies” and NPH has apologized tweeting, “should have been more thoughtful. Didn’t mean at all to offend.” Meanwhile Dan Savage ridicules the idea that anyone who says “tranny” under any context is a transphobe.

While temporarily replacing senile Regis Philbin this week on LIVE! With Kelly, Doogie Howser MD Neil Patrick Harris inhaled some heavier than air “anti-helium” gas, said “It puts the lotion in the basket” (imitating The Silence of the Lambs’ transexual villain, Buffalo Bill). Then Harris said, “We can sound like trannies all the time” adding, “That would sound hilarious.”

You can guess what will happen next.

Coming soon: a well deserved backlash, NPH’s forced apology, press releases decrying and applauding his apology and lots of transphobic commenters who bitch about political correctness while using the slur themselves. So predictable.

Image and story via Joe.My.God.

By:           Daniel Villarreal
On:           Dec 2, 2011
Tagged: , ,
  • 186 Comments
    • bagooka
      bagooka

      I don’t understand. Since the gas made his voice so deep, isn’t he like the opposite of a tranny?

      Dec 2, 2011 at 11:10 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Henry
      Henry

      Oh dear, that’s just terrible. It’s so terrible you can see the shock on Kelly’s face.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 11:23 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Pedro
      Pedro

      I reserve the term “tranny” for transexuals who cannot hack it, in that they are so laughably male, their attempt at looking female can only be described by the word tranny. I however, have great admiration for those who are able to pull it off, and actually look female, those women are hot!

      Dec 2, 2011 at 11:47 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Randi
      Randi

      Ok, here we go again. Let’s all fight among ourselves while the “Moral Majority” or “family Values” groups point to us and say; “See we told you they can’t even get along with each other let alone the rest of society, and they think they deserve “special” rights.”

      Dec 2, 2011 at 11:50 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • evanb
      evanb

      Perhaps he was referring to transvestites, and not transsexuals. Or do transsexuals now lay claim to any and all usage of the “trans” prefix? Good thing TWA’s out of business, or its planes’d be glitterbombed all the time.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 11:58 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Henry
      Henry

      @Randi: You make it sound like there IS an us. Not all transsexuals are gay. In fact, most of them aren’t.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 12:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JAW
      JAW

      @bagooka:

      We keep trying to recapture words like Queer, Fag, Dyke, etc… why not Tranny?

      NPH is a member of the GLBT family… many have said that family members can recapture words. NPH was talking to Kelly R who is one of our Biggest allies. Hell even her Hot husband is playing Gay in an off-Broadway play.Kelly is an honorary GLBT family member… and they were 2 family members talking (forgetting that a million others were listening in)

      Let’s get over it and move on

      Dec 2, 2011 at 12:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Yibbet
      Yibbet

      FYI: He said it again Friday morning.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 12:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JAW
      JAW

      @evanb:
      You are correct… The Transsexuals have taken full ownership of the term Trans…

      They kicked the Transvestites out… the Transsexuals (or is Transgender the new PC term)
      re named the Transvestites as cross dressers. The term Transvestite was used long before the other terms

      Dec 2, 2011 at 12:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • mitchell Fain
      mitchell Fain

      he did it again today. perhaps he was afraid we didnt hear his bad joke yesterday…this time he did it more clearly and it still got no laughs…tsk tsk tsk NPH…you should know better!

      Dec 2, 2011 at 12:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • mitchell
      mitchell

      the problem is that is a bad joke pandering to the LCD of the morning TV audience…like being in a room full of white people and making a racist joke. Cheap…very very cheap.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 12:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • christopher di spirito
      christopher di spirito

      The Countess from the ‘Real Housewives of New York’ looks like a tranny.

      So does NeNe Leakes from the ‘Real Housewives of Atlanta.’ As does Michelle Obama, Ann Coulter, Serena Williams, Wendy Williams, Rhea Perlman, Jamie Lee Curtis, Angelica Huston, Kim Kardashian, and Tyra Banks.

      They may allegedly be biological women but they’re all trannylicious. Deal with it.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 12:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • QJ201
      QJ201

      Perhaps if trans folks directed their energies at the real haters…there might be more gender identity/expression protections around the country. But no, many sit behind a computer and go into attack mode over the use of the word “tranni,” which I have heard MANY trans woman use among themselves in the NYC scene. So I guess “tranni” is like the “N” word. No one can use it expect the people is supposedly describes.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 12:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • WillBFair
      WillBFair

      I was sorry to see the word go. It doesn’t have the history of hatred and violence that the n word and f word do. And I always thought it was a fun and charming and positive word.
      I also think the trans community banned it so that they could label a transphobe anyone who didn’t get the memo.
      It’s funny that no one calls Bilerico gay-phobic even after their nonstop commentary about privileged, white, cis, gay, transphobe men.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 12:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Henry
      Henry

      I still don’t understand how tranny is an insult. There’s no recorded history of the word being used as a slur. It’s as if someone woke up one morning and decided they would add it to the list of taboo words because they needed to protect their white or Asian-pretending-to-be-white privilege. A bitter pre-op must have done it.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 12:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • lohen
      lohen

      i lol’d

      Dec 2, 2011 at 12:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Conrad
      Conrad

      @Pedro:

      That’s such a blatantly transphobic and misogynistic thing to say. Who gets to decide what looks “male” and what looks “female?” Who has the authority to say, “you don’t look feminine enough?” And how condescending to have admiration for someone based on how they blend in and don’t disrupt your ideas of masculinity and femininity.

      Take a moment, learn your history. Queer has never been about fitting in.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 1:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David Ehrenstein
      David Ehrenstein

      “Cisgendered” is a slur.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 1:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Edward Cis-sorhands
      Edward Cis-sorhands

      @Conrad: Mother Nature gets to decide that, Conny. Transsexuals should take the time to learn something about it. Masculine means angular and rough. Feminine means soft and dainty.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 1:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Conrad Honicker
      Conrad Honicker

      @QJ201:

      1) There’s a history of non-stakeholders (i.e. non-trans people, non-black people, non-gay people) taking words like tranny, nigger, and faggot and using them against the respective group. When those stakeholders reclaim that word, they use it endearingly. That means with a positive connotation. When non-stakeholders try and use the word, it a) digs up the history of the pejorative usage or b) is used pejoratively e.g. NPH.

      2) Anyone who’s making pejorative comments or belittling trans people or using their identity as a marker for, “gross, messed up, not right, hot mess” is a REAL hater. Whether you’re gay, whether you’re straight, you’re part of the problem. I don’t think anyone’s arguing for the straight kids at school to be allowed to say, “that’s so gay,” which if you’ve forgotten is a small act that can build up or lead to greater acts of homophobia. Saying something’s a “hot tranny mess” or using the word tranny to demean something is just as fucked as saying something “gay” to mean stupid.

      Given the history of trans people and the role trans folk played in Stonewall, I’m starting to feel like gay (usually white) men who think they can degenerate transgender folk and think they are a part of “the family” or the “LGBT community” or even the “gay and lesbian community” are mistaken. You’re not part of my family if you’re systematically attacking and excluding identities that were/are crucial in our struggles for equality. Girl, learn yourself.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 1:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Ford
      Bill Ford

      Hey Conrad, I never asked to be a part of your “family”, and as far as I can see, there was never a vote taken to include you in mine.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 1:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Sweetbrandigirl2004
      Sweetbrandigirl2004

      OMG Im so sock of the Transgender Machine jumping down someone case every time anyone does or says something that cracks that delicate bubble of fantasy they live in. The word “Trannie” conjures up visions of a non-op street walking prostitute or a very non passable cross dresser to me. A definition that fit buffalo Bill quite well. So the Transgender Machine needs to F%^&* Chill out and quite getting their silk panties in a wad.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 1:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • WillBFair
      WillBFair

      @David Ehrenstein: That’s an interesting idea. Why is cisgendered a slur? Or are you being snarky?
      I kind of objected to it because it was foisted on me without anyone asking permission. Beyond that, the gay concensus is that it’s neutral and thus ok. And that seems a reasonable position.
      Can you elaborate?

      Dec 2, 2011 at 1:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Evan Mulvihill
      Evan Mulvihill

      THAT’S ONLY OKAY WHEN CHRISTIAN SIRIANO SAYS IT!

      Dec 2, 2011 at 2:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daniel Villarreal
      Daniel Villarreal

      @David Ehrenstein and @WillBFair: Cisgender is not a slur. Just because you don’t like a word when it’s used against you does not make it a slur. By that rationale I could say, “The labels of ‘Mexican’ and ‘male’ were foisted upon me without my permission. Yes, both correctly describe me, but I find them offensive. So don’t you dare call me by the correct adjectives unless you have my and every other Mexican males’ permission.”

      Dec 2, 2011 at 2:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mike
      Mike

      @christopher di spirito: I’m so glad you posted this. I think we can all agree that Countess LuAnn looks like a tranny.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 2:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      NPH is a class act, who has no problem apologizing. Dan Savage remains a jerk.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 2:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • WillBFair
      WillBFair

      @Daniel Villarreal: I know, I know. I already admitted that the gay concensus on this was reasonable. But can we at least wait to hear what David might have to say. Maybe there’s a reason we’re overlooking.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 2:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Shannon1981
      Shannon1981

      All I’ll say is I REALLY hate all the trans hate. I have been out as gay for years. I only recently came out genderqueer. The hate from gays is amazing. Queerty’s spellchecker doesn’t even recognize genderqueer as a real word. Gay blog, fix that, why dontcha?

      Dec 2, 2011 at 2:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JayKay
      JayKay

      @Shannon1981:

      It’s not a real word though.

      Come to think of it neither is cisgender.

      Stop making up words, liberals.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 2:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • A/C
      A/C

      Im sorry but Fuck the trannies who a problem with the word tranny. Seriously give me a fucking break.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 2:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JAW
      JAW

      @Shannon1981:
      as an FYI… Queerty does not have a spell check… your browser (like FireFox, Internet explorer, chrome etc) has spell check.

      As for the word “gender queer”… I do not have a clue as to what the definition is same with genderfluid

      can you enlighten me?

      Dec 2, 2011 at 3:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • NelsonG
      NelsonG

      @Daniel Villarreal: Yes it is a slur, Daniel, WillBFair; It is term used by transgenders to disparage gay men.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 3:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JayKay
      JayKay

      @NelsonG:

      Shut up, you privileged cisgender monster. Slurs and hate speech are perfectly acceptable when it comes from a poor, oppressed, minority.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 3:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JAW
      JAW

      @NelsonG:

      You got it wrong… It is term used by transgenders to disparage ALL non Trans people… Gay, Bi, straight, male and female

      Many Trans people see themselves being oppressed by anyone that does not see sexual orientation the exact way that they do. Many Trans people are pissed at other Trans… so to make sure they piss of everone else… they give us, as Lady GaGa said, “born this way males and females, gay and straight a new name… and that is cis… and that is insulting to me and to most other… “Born this way” people

      Dec 2, 2011 at 3:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • PilateError
      PilateError

      I can understand using the word once without any knowledge of the offense it holds then apologizing for the mistake, but I see no reason for a crucifixion for the ignorance; however, if used when aware of it’s offensive effectiveness, you’re just being a jerk, not willing to learn from your mistake.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 3:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daniel Villarreal
      Daniel Villarreal

      @NelsonG: Cisgender in its definition and daily use has nothing to do with gay men nor have I seen it used in all the various LGBT and trans-specific blogs I’ve read as a gay-centric connotation. I just think gay men have taken particular offense to it because it sounds weird and they don’t like being excluded or singled out for being potentially biased or different based purely on their biological sex and gender identity.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 3:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daddles
      Daddles

      JESUS CHRIST
      you people are all crazy
      how hard is it not to use tranny. how hard is it not to call people niggers or faggots or chinks or kikes. it’s really not that damn hard but you all seem to think that you’re entitled to use it in whatever fashion you see fit because ‘trans people use it’ or ‘we’re all lgbt’ or some nonsense. the point is: a majority of trans women find it offensive and ask that people not use the word ‘tranny’ and that should be good enough for all of you.

      lets clear this up, right from the mouth of this babe: cisgender is not an insult. all ‘cisgender’ does is eliminate the trans vs. non-trans thinking. either one is transgender or they are cisgender. NO FUCKING PROBLEM. nobody is beating the crud out of you for being cisgendered, nobody is denying you housing, or a job or access to basic health care because you’re cisgendered so please just calm down because nobody is trying to insult you with ‘cisgender.’ (and if they are, then they’ve got issues)

      Dec 2, 2011 at 4:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Eric in Chicago
      Eric in Chicago

      Actually he said it during the science guy segment and he repeated the comment on the show today. Just for the record.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 4:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • stoopid louie
      stoopid louie

      Once a tranny, always a tranny.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 4:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Henry Holland
      Henry Holland

      Can you imagine if Richard O’Brien tried to write The Rocky Horror (Picture) Show now?

      I’m just a cis-gendered stakeholder
      From lesbian, gay, bisexual, transexual, questioning, intersex, asexual
      Non-GenderConformingSylvania

      No. 22 · Bill Ford
      Hey Conrad, I never asked to be a part of your “family”, and as far as I can see, there was never a vote taken to include you in mine

      + 1,000,000

      No. 38 · Daniel Villarreal
      @NelsonG: Cisgender in its definition and daily use has nothing to do with gay men nor have I seen it used in all the various LGBT and trans-specific blogs I’ve read as a gay-centric connotation.

      You must not read Bilerico then, it’s used as an insult against gay men there.

      I just think gay men have taken particular offense to it because it sounds weird and they don’t like being excluded or singled out for being potentially biased or different based purely on their biological sex and gender identity

      No, because it’s the tipping point of the stupid alphabet soup that a tiny –I mean TINY– portion of people insist on imposing on others without consent. I think we’re now up to LBGTQIA, but I’ve seen other bits added. I mean, really, “questioning”? How about they get back to us when they’ve decided?

      Dec 2, 2011 at 5:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      It is too bad that NPH apologized. Although they try to portray themselves as radical and transgressive, trans activists are actually very reactionary. They want to tie gay men and lesbians to transsexualism on the basis of old stereotypes. And they are very eager to terrorize gays and lesbians who challenge them. We need to fight these thuggish trans activists not apologize to them. They are as warped and predatory as the Christian Right and have the potential to do gay people great harm if we continue to define ourselves as if we are one and the same as them.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 5:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ibarra
      ibarra

      i agree. let’s sit back and wait for enough transphobia and violence against the trans community before we actually take action. there isn’t enough blood on our hands.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 5:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daniel Villarreal
      Daniel Villarreal

      @Henry Holland: I’d love the link to the Bilerico post where cis is used as an insult against gay men. And I wonder whether you’re talking about the commenters there or an author. Furthermore, as far as I’m concerned LGBs and Ts both have gender non-conformity, being “born this way,” and the right to love and live in peace at the heart of the movement. As for the alphabet soup, I don’t think trans issues distract from LGB issues at all. We’re all opposed and saying that one disempowers or endangers the other is like saying that one financially secure people should not care about poor people, because it endangers their own interests—it’s a cold and needlessly selfish view.

      Do I always agree with trans activists? No. Do I always agree with LGB activists? No. Does either group always champion my view of progressive issues? Hardly. But I’m not about to start insulting them or encouraging others to kick them out of our community because they frustrate me.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 5:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Aiden
      Aiden

      @Randi: So if someone is gay or trans they can’t be called out on their bullshit. As to the rest just fuck off, we’ve heard it all before, trannies blah blah blah, I’m not one of them blah with a side of herp derp.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 6:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • newcityspot
      newcityspot

      The transgender folk on My Transsexual Summer used the word “tranny.” But I can see how he said it in a derogatory way so in this case, it was offensive. It was a generalization of a population of people comprised of distinct individuals.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 6:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • christopher di spirito
      christopher di spirito

      Dear Mr. Neil Patrick Harris,

      You are a pussy for apologizing for using the word “trannies.”

      Now I’ll make a point of not watching your shitty show on CBS called ‘How I Met Your Mother’ or the next awards show you agree to host.

      Sincerely,

      Dec 2, 2011 at 6:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • NelsonG
      NelsonG

      @JAW: Correction noted; thank you.

      Nonetheless, the notion that ‘cisgender’ is not being used as a slur is false.

      @JayKay:

      Um, I’m part of the lower middle class. I live in one of the most economically depressed areas in the US. I’m part of from a poor, oppressed, minority where words and terms like tranny, faggot, dyke, homo, queer are used with the same breath as nigger.

      Nigger; as in, “Yo, My nigga! What up”
      And tranny, as in, “that tranny is cool people; why you got beef with her?”

      Que tu habla?

      Dec 2, 2011 at 6:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bun
      Bun

      WTF–Is T.I. posting on queerty now??

      Bitching about an “oversensitive” group the minute one of your “own” makes a mistake and has to apologize. To the point where some of you are angry that he apologized…huh.

      One of the true tests of character is how someone reacts when the impact of their own privilege (i.e. male privilege, str8 privilege, etc.) is pointed out to them. When they act like crybabies about it, I lose a lot of respect. Gender privilege is at the root of all homophobia, which is why I’m so befuddled by gay male hate/ignorance about trans issues.

      But really, that’s where majority oppression scores its greatest victory: using fear of failure to get marginalized groups to attack each other and keep themselves down. (I can’t align with them or I’ll never get my slice of the teeny-tiny rights pie!! I better bash someone else to gain acceptance!! It’s not hateful, just practical!!) When that happens…bigots smile, or at least sneer.

      I guess I’ll just file this away for when the same hateful posters call gay conservatives “kapos,” since their desparate pandering looks all the same to me.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 6:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • SteveC
      SteveC

      My good friend is a hateful transphobe. She uses the word regularly. I will end this friendship. I cannot be friends with a bigot (even though ahe’s trans herself).

      Dec 2, 2011 at 6:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JayKay
      JayKay

      @Bun:

      Male privilege?

      Oh that is just adorable. Look at you, all grown up and still believing in fairy tales…Seriously that is just the cutest thing.

      So what do you want Santa Claus to bring you this year?

      Dec 2, 2011 at 6:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Shannon1981
      Shannon1981

      @JAW: Genderqueer is a catchall term that encompasses all who are not strictly male, not strictly female, nor FTM or MTF. We are in between, no binaries here.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 7:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David Ehrenstein
      David Ehrenstein

      @WillBFair: I’m being snarky because I’m FED UP WITH THIS CRAP!

      Dec 2, 2011 at 7:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David Ehrenstein
      David Ehrenstein

      As I believe I’ve mentioned here before I’ve found it impossible to post at Pam Spauding’s anymore because of all the TRANNIES who are out to attack gay men– on any pretext they can cocktail up.

      Their favorite is BREATHING. The fact that gay men exist is an exreme annoyance to them. Hell, beyond annoyance. They’ve decided that WE are the enemy. WE are the source of all their problems in the world. Not the larger social context in which we’re presumed to be linked.

      They want to change LGBT to TLGB — and then remove the LGB.

      They’re in the process of rewriting history to the effect that it was trannies and trannies alone who fought the cops at Stonewall, which I happen to know is a TOTAL LIE!!!!
      There — I said it, ad I’m glad.

      Flame Away!

      Dec 2, 2011 at 7:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JRL
      JRL

      @David Ehrenstein: I don’t know of any trans person who feels that way. Maybe you’ve heard that from some people who are trans, but those people don’t represent my views or the entire trans communities views.

      As for the usage of the word tranny, to me anyway, it depends on the context. I dont really mind it being used unless it’s being used in a hurtful or mean way.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 7:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • laughriotgirl
      laughriotgirl

      Reason #564 why trans women need to tell the LG folks to shove off. Keep it classy homos.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 7:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JayKay
      JayKay

      @laughriotgirl:

      I don’t think you realize just how happy it would make me if those people decided to start distancing themselves from gays. No idea.

      Unfortunately they’re never going to do that, since they need us in order to accomplish anything. Of course we, on the other hand, don’t need them for anything. In fact we would probably have a much easier time getting our stuff done without the forced gay-trans association.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 8:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • missanthrope
      missanthrope

      Queery Editors: NPH has apologized via twitter, so quit drumming up drama and update the story.

      There’s a big difference between the arrogance and contempt that Savage has shown for anyone who criticizes him and a one time mistake by Harris.

      @luaghriottgirl: don’t be a homophobe, it makes me sick.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 8:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bobo
      Bobo

      Daddles is right. Everyone else, shut yer cis-gendered piehole and chillax. I’m not trans, but if a group of trans folks told me that term is offensive, i’d stop using it and ask my friends to stop using it. That goes for any other other marginalized or historically oppressed group. Language is a social construct, and oppressed groups should be able to decide how they want to be identified (or decide what is offfensive or not) on their own terms. If you have a problem with that, maybe you should find an island and live on it with other hateful gays, and you can say stupid shit to each other all day.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 8:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CBRad
      CBRad

      @David Ehrenstein: Fat Pam Spaulding and the Angry Trannie Crew. What a nightmare.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 8:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daddles
      Daddles

      @David Ehrenstein:
      Gay transman here to throw a wrench in your theories.
      So can you explain to me how I (as a trans person) hate gay people (being that I am also gay)
      The fact that I exist is an extreme annoyance to me and I was just wondering if you could clear that up.

      Have you ever stopped to consider that trans people are not so friendly to you because your ideas about us are completely ridiculous?

      Also, sources are much appreciated when you claim that trans people are erasing gays from stonewall. I’d LOVE to know where that crackpot of an idea came from.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 8:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Riker
      Riker

      @Bobo: But when non-trans people say that “cis” is offensive, trans people refuse to stop using it. Sorry, respect goes both ways. When they stop calling us cic, i’ll stop calling them tranny.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 8:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JRL
      JRL

      @Riker: I’ve never used the term ‘cis’, and honestly, didn’t have a clue what it meant until 5 seconds ago when I googled it. If someone finds a word offensive then I’ll stop using it. It isn’t hard to be respectful/courteous to people who are a little different then me.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 9:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • NelsonG
      NelsonG

      @Daddles: But no one saying or writing YOU hate gay people. What is being said is that there exists a group of authoritarianist activists and bloggers who attack people when the say “tranny” in context and use words and phrases like “cisgender” to disparage gay men.

      As Mr. Ehrenstein has noted – and we’re not social friends, mind you – it takes place alot on blogs and websites were transgenders are given editorial content. Pam’s House Blend is ground zero for much, if not all of it. Now you, Mr. Villareal, and others may not have been personally witness to this, but it has occurred, and with a great deal of frequency. Maybe if some people weren’t so preoccupied with sex and porn, they’d see it.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 9:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bobo
      Bobo

      The term cis-gendered is not offensive. Wtf, did everyone smoke a bunch of drugs b4 going online??? It means your gender identity matches the gender u were born into. The only way it would be offensive is if you are trans identified and folks kept calling you cis. I identify as cis and as an ally to all trans brothers and sisters in struggle.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 9:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JRL
      JRL

      @NelsonG: “But no one saying or writing YOU hate gay people” Ehrenstein was, he was referring to the entire trans community. You can’t judge an entire community based on the comments of a few people fwho belong to that communty.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 9:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jack
      Jack

      NPH has turned into such a tool

      Dec 2, 2011 at 9:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Steve
      Steve

      I’m with Dan Savage on this one. There’s no way NPH is actually transphobic, he’s just silly.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 9:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      Its interesting to see the reaction to NPH versus Tracy Morgan in terms of the gay main blogs. For the record, I like NPH better than Morgan, and NPH apologized so I think he’s still cool. But what’s interesting is that while Morgan was performing an act, which I thought was bad, it was an act. And I said as much at the time. There was all this hatred towards him because of it. He should be fired. He shouldn’t have a career. Blah, blah, blah. Now, we have a guy who clearly said something that he was thinking, and it was inappropriate. There is no confusion here that he was putting on a performance or playing a character. Not really. And what is the response? The exact opposite.

      If you want equality, you need to give it. That’s all I am saying.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 9:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Aiden
      Aiden

      @Interesting: But don’t you understand? If it wasn’t for those trannies, gays would be completely excepted by society.

      *sarcasm*

      Dec 2, 2011 at 10:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @Aiden:Often what this sort of situation reveals when compared to how people react to gay rights issue is that they aren’t in it for the equality. They are in it for themselves alone. I have a gay white friend who posits this theory: A lot of the main stream gay community are in it the struggle not to increase human rights for all, but to regain what they thought they lose from not being privileged. Whether that is the privilege of class (if they are gay and well off) or race (because of white privilege) or whatever- the central dynamic is the chimera of wanting equality. They don’t want equality. They want a return to privilege that they thought they had over others but-for being gay. So, if it is some minority group that they feel are lower on the totem pole like trans community, or, it can be race, or it can be class too (since you don’t exactly hear much about poor white gays either), the point isn’t to see how we are all different as minorities or people without power, but we share enough in common as far a true equality so that we should try to understand each other. Rather than wanting that, these sorts of situations- the difference in treatment and reactions between the incidents tells us that its all about “I got mine.” I want to help me. I want to have for me. Not I want to make sure we are all equal. Its sad, but I knew at the time that hte Morgan incident happened that there would be some incident like this,a nd that a great majority would not even see their hypocritical views. I am sure I will be attacked for pointing this out, but it really is beyond me how half the people posting on the blogs can look themselves in the mirror given the fact they are willing to attack others while whining that they are being attacked.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 10:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • D Smith
      D Smith

      @Riker: and what then do you wish for trans identified people to call an individual with congruent gender identity as opposed to an individual with a trans-gendered identity? “normal”? as if that there not just as backwards and bigoted as heterosexuals or males being considered “normal”

      by all means PLEASE link us to the articles or forum discussions where this alleged demeaning of the “normal” community takes place… so that we can see for ourselves, otherwise… your just blowing smoke out your rear.

      how quickly you seem to forget history. the oppressed become the oppressors… again.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 10:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @D Smith: Unfortunately that’s history of the human species. The only “normal” ascpect of it is how quickly the oppressed becomes the oppressor. They don’t learn shit from it other than how to do it while hiding behind their own history of being oppressed.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 10:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JayKay
      JayKay

      @D Smith:

      Yes, normal is the appropriate adjective.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 10:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @JayKay: Only a straight bigot or a clueless gay one could write what you just wrote.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 10:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Gus
      Gus

      Thanks to the *good* christians at Westboro Phelps Church…..the US Supreme Court has ruled that labels like *faggot*, *tranny*, and *bulldyke* are all parts of protected speech…..as long as you are standing on Old Glory like it was a throw rug and screaming those labels outside the funeral for a dead soldier.
      NPH’s only mistake was not protesting outside a Hero’s memorial service when he said it.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 10:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Laughriotgirl
      Laughriotgirl

      @JayKay: Ah if we could turn back time to when trans people were getting basic laws passed (in all but three states) and gay men were planing on the day when they could actually maybe potentially come out and then perhaps try to get some equal treatment. I really think that some gay men need to realize that trans people had far more/better political success roughly a decade before there was any serious movement politically for sexual orientation. The myth that trans people need the LGB more than the lGB needs trans people is ahistorical and should stop.

      @missanthrope – no homophobia here. I assume if “tranny” (short for transsexual/transgender) is perfectly lovely to use, then “homo” (short for homosexual) must be the bestest word ever.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 11:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ewe
      ewe

      Of course he should apologize. This making NPH a victim is rediculous.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 11:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ewe
      ewe

      @A/C: You should be sorry and it is not only transgendered people who object to using that word. These same people (probably you too) would object to other words but you have a problem ( yes YOU have a problem) with people who object to your hypocrisy.

      Dec 2, 2011 at 11:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JayKay
      JayKay

      @Laughriotgirl:

      “The myth that trans people need the LGB more than the lGB needs trans people is ahistorical and should stop.”

      Is this what you people actually believe? Lmao.

      Tell you what…Let’s remove all the trans protections from ENDA in order to get that passed, like was originally planned. Obviously you’d have no objections since I’m sure transgendereds could get their own version of ENDA passed with no problems at all…

      Dec 2, 2011 at 11:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • mike128
      mike128

      I am so embarrassed by the gay men on this website who continue to refer to trans people as “those people” and keep insisting that “they” need to “lighten up”. Isn’t this the same kind of response we get from homophobic straight people when we’re offended by gay slurs? It’s amazing how some of us can’t see beyond our own narrow interests… absolutely amazing.

      I think NPH didn’t mean any harm, and probably really doesn’t require GLADD “reaching out to him” (as has been written about in other articles). But I also don’t think we should use this story as an excuse to attack the trans community. Is anyone else besides me interested in hearing more voices from the trans community and knowing what people in the community itself have to say?

      Dec 3, 2011 at 12:00 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Henry Holland
      Henry Holland

      I wonder whether you’re talking about the commenters there or an author

      Commenters. See also: *shudder* Pam’s House Blend *shudder*

      Re: cis
      It means your gender identity matches the gender u were born into

      Then it’s redundant academic “queer theory” nonsense. It’s sooooooo 90’s.

      If someone finds a word offensive then I’ll stop using it. It isn’t hard to be respectful/courteous to people who are a little different then me

      That’s not the point some people are making. It’s that out of nowhere, without any consultation or voting or input, we’re being TOLD what to call people, how to address them, that they are now our political allies. It’s now gotten to the point where is it’s embarrassing, the alphabet soup of LGBTTQIA (I think that’s the latest iteration). Sorry, the intersexed have nothing to do with me being a man-loving-man, they just don’t, just as people in to sadomasochism or scat don’t.

      And frankly, the whole media circus bullshit is SO FUCKING TIRED. It’s SO predictable: someone says something stupid > a minority of people and The Professional Gays are outraged > they go to the press demanding a retraction > the press prints their outrage to get page views > the person who said something stupid issues a non-apology apology “I’m sorry if I offended anyone”.

      And, amazingly, life goes on.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 12:02 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @JayKay: If you remove trans protection, the response of straight union members and several others has been as we have seen that this means that this is not about equality. It has lost votes under your approach. People like you, your bigotry blinds you.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 12:23 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Laughriotgirl
      Laughriotgirl

      @JayKay: “Tell you what…Let’s remove all the trans protections from ENDA…” Deal.. the second you repeal every single gay-only employment or hate crime law that used examples of trans women’s employment and bias-based violence to get passed (without actually covering trans people) and try over without using the “compelling stories” that get those laws passed.

      The history of trans legal gains takes a sharp turn negative the more and more we became linked to the LGB and the more and more the LGB groups spoke for us/ over us and determined that we were only useful as a bargaining chip to trade away for gay-only legislation. Befoe you can have a trans-free movement, you need to come to grips with some historical realities. Based on your posting history here though, I’ll not really hold my breath.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 12:32 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Riker
      Riker

      @D Smith: I wish for them to call me male. If they want to call themselves male too, that’s fine with me. I was born male, I identify as male. I don’t identify as cismale or cisman or any other gender studies ivory tower nonsense.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 1:29 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bun
      Bun

      By the way, many ignorant homophobic straights support trans rights because they recognize gender dysphoria as less of a “choice” than being gay. (See also: Iran, where transgenderism isn’t illegal but homosexuality is.) But the trans movement hasn’t exploited this (enormous) potential political advantage nearly as much as they could have, due to solidarity with the same GLB’s who are suddenly “above” supporting them when GLB’s are gaining rights? So who is holding whom back??

      Is the fear of that reality what’s really behind a lot of this ridiculous hatred? And doesn’t this bode poorly for the “be patient, we’ll come back for you” argument? Right, like the David Ehrensteins of the world will do anything but leave transfolk behind as revenge for “oppressing” them so horribly in the blogoshpere!

      Dec 3, 2011 at 1:54 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • tazz602
      tazz602

      Can someone please explain why Transexuals co-opted a term that at one time had NOTHING to do with them but was simple gay shorthand for Transvestites and made it into a slur against them????

      TRANNIES are Transvestites (cross dressers) – or at least they were back in my younger days. Grow up people and stop being so frakken sensitive.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 1:59 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CBRad
      CBRad

      @Bun: “By the way, many ignorant homophobic straights support trans rights because they recognize gender dysphoria as less of a “choice” than being gay. (See also: Iran, where transgenderism isn’t illegal but homosexuality is.)” That sounds right to me. At least those people recognize trans and homosexual as two different things.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 2:16 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      Socket puppet bigots saying the same things all at once really is a dead give away. You be smart enough not to post some time a part rather than within in seconds of each other.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 2:28 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CBRad
      CBRad

      @Interesting: I’d say two posts appearing within seconds of each other, at the same time, proves two different folks posted them.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 2:34 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Laughriotgirl
      Laughriotgirl

      @JayKay: Explain how legal recognition for a post-operative transsexual’s sex is recognized in 47 states? How did that start in the mid 1950’s? Why did gaining that most basic legal recognition become harder and harder in the 80’s through the 90’s as gay groups and academics asserted that all gender variance was part of “gay history” and “the community”?

      There is also the totally anecdotal experience I have that straight folks just “get it” or are far more willing to try and understand when I tell them I’m trans then gay men and lesbians. There is also the equally anecdotal experience that every time I have mentioned this to other trans women, they claim to have the same or similar experiences. That gay people are often less informed, more willing to ask questions and less willing to listen to the answers, and FAR more likely to “forget” everything you told them the next time you meet them.

      Obviously, this isn’t every single gay man, and there are many perfectly great guys (even here oddly enough). It is, however, a common enough experience that trans women have very little reason to automatically expect good intentions from a gay man or GLBT organizations.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 3:39 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • R.A.
      R.A.

      “Cisgendered” is transsexual politics masquerading as science and reeks of the worst of the feminist movement. It’s no different than bald men coming up with a word for the non-bald and railing against non-bald privilege. Then if the non-bald reject this bald vs. non-bald worldview, you accuse them of bald-phobia. I would hope that there would be at least a handful of transgendered people who see this for the bunk that it is. If you think talking gibberish will ever create common ground with gays or straights, think again.

      On the other hand, whether “trannie” actually refers to drag queens or transvestites is irrelevant. It is certainly not a term of respect to anyone. Unless members of these groups expressly wish to be addressed by this word, if you have any manners, you’d drop it.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 3:41 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daddles
      Daddles

      People should all be treated with respect and dignity. If they ask you to use or not use a word to describe them, you should do it out of respect for them.

      LGB rights are T rights. There is no waiting line for rights and acceptance; either we’re equal or we’re not. Either your right to get married, to keep a job, to keep a home, to be a soldier is EQUAL to my right to get married, to keep a job, to keep a home, to be a soldier, or gay rights become more equal than trans rights. Sexuality, gender identity, race, and religion are not reasons enough to exclude anyone from their equal rights.

      The fact that some gays would like to exclude trans people from the movement for equal rights says a lot about what those gays truly think equality means.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 3:45 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Matthew
      Matthew

      Let’s be MORE hyper-sensitive shall we? I could care less if he called everyone faggot. Folks sure are acting like one.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 4:42 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • bobo
      bobo

      @henry holland, if it’s so fucking tired, you need to fucking retire already. we don’t need your toxic self-hating ass, the queer community is evolving without you. yeah, life goes on…without you. to all the trans folks out there, I’m really sorry, the gay community is not all batshit lying stupid crazy like a majority of the commenters on here (see “many ignorant homophobic straights support trans rights”), a lot of us are trying to get things done and are working for change, the rest are just trolling and talking of their ignorant lying bigot asses like Perez Hilton. it’s disgusting, dismaying and embarrassing.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 5:12 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Riker
      Riker

      @Laughriotgirl: So, the Ts don’t want to be part of LGB. Most LGBs who have an opinion on it don’t want the Ts to be part of it. Why are we still following the one giant LGBTTQQAI super-community myth?

      At this point, an amicable separation might be the best move for both our peoples.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 5:44 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dan
      Dan

      At least we can all agree that drag queens – who are so 1970’s/80’s – need to retire into history. They are just irritating and wierd at this point.

      The LGB and the T community are forever entwined because most hets see trans people and don’t make the distinction between LGB and T – it’s all queer community to them.

      Speaking as part of the G group, I have found that nearly all MTF people I’ve met are completely lovely individuals, pre- and post- op, while most FTM people are really irritating and homophobic – overcompensating with machismo and – being that they consider themselves hetero males – are homophobic and downright resentful of biologically-male gay guys. The contrast between MTF and FTM has nearly always been striking to experience.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 7:14 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David Ehrenstein
      David Ehrenstein

      @Daddles: That idea came from an avalanch of posts on Pam Spaulding’s site and a number of other places. The want to OWN Stonewall.

      Well they; can’t. All I havw to say is I knew Marcia P. Johnson, with her I was art of a protest movement that made you’re sorry ass possible. In short sweethearts YOU’RE NO MARCIA P. JOHNSON.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 10:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David Ehrenstein
      David Ehrenstein

      @Bobo: “The term cis-gendered is not offensive” Really? Then the term “tranny” is not offensive either.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 10:11 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • tookietookie
      tookietookie

      Castigat ridendo mores

      Dec 3, 2011 at 10:13 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David Ehrenstein
      David Ehrenstein

      @Interesting: Tracy Morgan said he’d stab his son to death if he found out he was gay.

      Was NPH saying he’d stab the twins to death if he found out they were trans?

      I DON’T THINK SO !!!!!!!!!

      Dec 3, 2011 at 10:14 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RLS
      RLS

      For some reason I feel if this was a rapper the response would be a bit different. Everyone would be defending the transgender people and the “community” would be once again united in their hate of all things that aren’t white and male.

      But cute NPH gets a pass.

      Typical…

      Dec 3, 2011 at 10:24 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JAW
      JAW

      we are all on NPH case and then we allow Lisa Lampanelli to say this shit… and think that she is funny

      Dec 3, 2011 at 10:57 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rebecca Juro
      Rebecca Juro

      Ok, here’s the thing:

      1. The word “tranny” IS a pejorative, and it is seen in much the same way as the N-word is seen by blacks or the six-letter F-word is seen by gays, that is, we can use it to refer to ourselves, you can’t. You don’t get to decide who feels offended by the use of these words, you only get to decide if you will respect the feelings of those who are.

      2.NPH did make a mistake here, but he quickly acknowledged it and apologized for it. I don’t think many trans folks can fault him for the way he handled it once he was made aware. To me, that’s the best we can hope for…that, and that we will now expect that it will not happen again.

      3. If you want tolerance and respect from others toward yourself and the way you live your life, the best way to get it is to model it to others. The Golden Rule does apply.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 12:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @CBRad: Two post appearing at the same time is a sign that someone logged into several accounts posting the same thing. the problem with the comments is that the perspective is so obviously the same person.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 2:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • NelsonG
      NelsonG

      @JRL: Then you and Mr. Ehrenstein will have to have a one on one on the matter.

      What I find interesting about this whole online discussion is just how desperate so many people are to protect their self loathing, that they’re even willing to be in denial about whether there is even an underlying hypocrisy in play regarding the term tranny.

      A few weeks ago, Sofia Vergara appeared on ABC News’ Nightline and commented on looking like a tranny. No one got mad.

      Tyra Banks appeared on CBS The Talk and staged an Banks staged an America’s Top Model She gave the co-hosts emotions to express and then outlandish situations in which to do it.

      In one segment, a man impersonating Dolly Parton surprised Sharon Osbourne while she was being photographed.

      No one got mad either.

      But when Craig Ferguson featured an ongoing comedy segment featuring some guy in a small skirt and skimpy blouse and “revealed” a bit much when “she” sat down, everyone went apeshit.

      If people really want that T word to be banned from our vocabulary, it has to be across the board. It can’t just be about getting GLAAD to declare the word or term hostile on their reference guide or some activist and blogger acting like a demigod over everyone.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 2:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @David Ehrenstein: Tracy Morgan was doing a performance as a comedy act. NPH was appearing as himself. I know your hypocritical stance depends on pretending other wise. But it does not change the fact you are in fact a hypocrite. Let me restate: I like NPH better than Tracy Morgan. I don’t like Morgan’s act. But I also don’t like hypocrites either.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 2:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @JAW: Lord, the difference is that NPH was not saying what he said as a part of a comic character. he was saying it a host on his show. No one expects that to reflect a different personality. I simply can’t take people here seriously who refuse to understand individual factual differences. For the record, I don’t like the comedian in question either. I like NPH. But pretending like they are the same just makes you a hypocrite trying to rationalize rather someone seeking to be honest. I am glad NPH apologized. There is nothing wrong with realizing one made a mistake and doing the right thing. Unlike some of you, I don’t need my stars to be perfect or to not make mistakes. I just need them not to be a jerk about it, which has not been. So far, in reading on line, the folks most virulent about this are those who want to rush in to defend his honor (which does not need defending) or bigots who use any excuse to attack groups like the trans community.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 2:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JayKay
      JayKay

      @Interesting:

      “Multiple people holding an opinion that I don’t like? Outrageous! They all must secretly be one person!”

      Lol. Liberals really just can’t grasp the fact that they’re the minority in this country.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 2:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @RLS: You are somewhat getting at the basic truth. This is more about “he’s one of us” so even if he’s saying something offensive against another group, we are going to pretend there is no problem with that. The example you are referring to can best be seen where some good looking white guy says something offensive, and some gays will rush in to defend them, despite attacking any person of color for saying the exact same thing. The former can be blamed on identity, while the later is more likely just straight up racism being masked under sexual attraction. Trying to figure out land mines of fucked up thinking in the gay main stream community can be a chore because there is so much pathos, but I don’t think this is a black versus white thing. I think its group identity thing. Gays versus trans. It still bigotry, but of a different type.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 2:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @JayKay: I love how trolls try to act like spamming site with their b.s. requires some great conspiracy or complicated process. Look, if you want pretend this is 1997, and everyone is new to the internet, and the games played on here, that’s up to you. But some of you are quite obviously posting shit under different screen names to make it seem like you got more support than you have. Its sad.

      Oh, and please don’t start posting under another screen name either stalking me or trying to accuse me of doing what you are doing here, which is also some of the behavior that occurs online. Its pathetic and desperate.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 2:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Steven
      Steven

      I am really pleased that more and more people are starting to understand the huge mistake that we made when we accepted the bogus concept of “LGBT”. It is a deceitful concept. It doesn’t describe reality. There is no such thing as LGBT. And by pretending that there is such a creature, we only set ourselves up for endless conflict with transgenders.

      Let it end. We can be friends with trans people. We can even be allies on some issues. But we are not them and they are not us.

      As far as Stonewall goes, if there were trans people there, it was either because: (i) they were gay, or ii) because, as pre-op transsexuals, they were treated as if they were gay. If they were actually gay, then the fact that they had some other characteristic is irrelevant. If some were transsexual and forced to go to a gay bar for some companionship, that is unfortunate. But it doesn’t mean that gay people are forced to define themselves as “LGBT” for decades and centuries to come just because a few transsexuals were forced to be in a dive bar where they didn’t want to be some 40 years ago. There were probably police informants and mafia hoods in that bar too. I don’t think we are going to add a PI and an MH to our alphabet soup on that basis.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 2:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Laughriotgirl
      Laughriotgirl

      @Interesting: Thank you for pointing out, obviously better than I have over the past few months, the hypocrisy involved in situations like this.

      Famous straight person says “fag” > the L/G pitches a fit > apologies are demanded > apology given > apology is criticized and a new/better apology demanded.

      Sean Combs is my favorite example, as he has clearly always been vocally pro-gay. The collective fit thrown when he drunkenly used an anti-gay slur in a club can have a direct parallel drawn to this. Except, I’m not actually aware of NPH ever saying anything positive about trans women (unlike Mr. Combs who has a history of pro-gay statements and actions). Given the history and the perfect examples of gay sentiment toward trans women, there is no reason to automatically trust that the intentions of a gay man are at all positive.

      The question is, then, at what point should gay people be held to the same standard that they correctly hold straight people to?

      Dec 3, 2011 at 2:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JayKay
      JayKay

      @Interesting:

      Calm yourself down, bro. I can almost picture you wearing your bedazzled, gender non-conforming, tinfoil hat.

      The only people I’ve ever seen using those tactics online are liberals, seeking to target, attack, shame, and harass anyone who doesn’t share their leftist worldview.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 2:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @Laughriotgirl:

      “The question is, then, at what point should gay people be held to the same standard that they correctly hold straight people to?”

      It is even more complicated than you describe. There really is a need for gay equality in society, but there really are some gay men who are looking for privilege rather than human rights/civil rights. The former is about saying “don’t treat me as unequal in this society” and the later is about “I want to treat others as unequal in society.”

      That fault line tends to become clear in conversations just like this one. Where if you took out the word “trans” and replaced it with any other oppressed group, including gays in fact, you would be hard pressed not to think the person saying it is not a bigot. The arguments are in fact the exact same arguments that homophobes make about gay people.

      The hypocritical part of this comes about because of the identity. So, although you get two straight people saying the same thing, they have other identities. A straight white person saying it is not treated the same as a straight black person saying it.

      Let’s remember what this discussion is about, “Don’t call people things they don’t want to be called.” That’s all that’s at discussion here. The person seeking privilege will say “I should be able say whatever I want to about other groups” The person who understands this is about equality realizes that the same things can be said about those who attack gay people, and, therefore, it is unacceptable for a gay person to say something that attacks another oppressed minority just as it would wrong for a straight person (of any stripe) to attack gay people.”

      To make the later statement requires striping away the desire for privilege over others and using identity to reinforce that privilege. Or, as one of my gay white friends said to me who describes himself as post gay (in that he’s gay but its not his identity), “some gay white men decided that coming out for them wasn’t about moving beyond being gay as the center. They decided that it would be come the tool to regain the privilege that they lost from being not being straight white men.” I added to that dynamic class- that its also about being in the middle class for some, but otherwise I agreed with his point.

      The main point being that if you are in all of this for the wrong reasons- if you see equality as “I want to get mine so that I can lord it over the rest of you” (even if that’s not stated allowed or ever admitted) then of course you are never going to see any similarities for the need for equality between gays and trans communities. They are atomized because your bigotry against the trans community or your bigotry against race (because its often forgot there are people of color who are gay) requires it. So, you get comments like “this white good looking guy” isn’t a bigot because I am attracted to him (which is one type of identity – I am attracted to that so its ‘excused’) versus other types such as “i am gay and he’s gay so anyone not gay is “other” and to be treated as lesser.

      At bottom the point is, if you want to figure out where someone is coming from with gay rights, the first thing I always do is to figure out how they would treat other groups not like them. If they want privilege I know they aren’t coming fromt he same place as me despite the common interest in achieving gay equality. They want it for the wrong reasons (and that matters when fights occurs becuase someone in it for the wrong reason is going to respond based on those wrong reasons like “I am white and he’s white so I am not going to think about his homophobia as monolithic” and I am going to ignore how to reach out to the black community or low income communities or whatever.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 3:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @JayKay: I am sitting here review resumes for a project that I am working on. So, it amuses me that you think that the trolling bothers me.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 3:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daniel Villarreal
      Daniel Villarreal

      @NelsonG: @David Ehrenstein: You two keep talking about all these posts from Pam’s House Blend and other sites that use “cisgender” as a slur. But neither of you have been able to produce so much as a single link substantiating your claim. I say until you do, either put up or shut up. Feeling slighted does not automatically turn a word into a slur.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 3:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CBRad
      CBRad

      @Riker: I can only see an amicable separation as best too, meanwhile wishing them the best in their fight. On “Hung” the other night, he found out the woman he was escorting to an event was a post-op transexual, and he started talking to her about his gay son. She was like, “Why are you telling ME about this? I’m a straight woman.” Yes, I know that’s a scripted TV show, but I can’t help but see it that way for real.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 3:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Laughriotgirl
      Laughriotgirl

      @Interesting: “So far, in reading on line, the folks most virulent about this are those who want to rush in to defend his honor (which does not need defending) or bigots who use any excuse to attack groups like the trans community.”

      It is interesting that I haven’t really heard/read anything beyond the initial “WTF?” from trans women about this. NPH apologized and, largely, trans women have moved on. Honestly, the apology was pretty hollow compared to the bloodletting demanded by the LG for Kobe Bryant’s expletive. We aren’t seeing trans people pick it apart now are we?

      We are however, seeing gay men getting worked up about the potential that trans women may be offended. We are seeing Joe Jervis and Dan Savage assigning a reaction to trans women and then a storm of fury, defensiveness, and indignation from gay men about a reaction that hasn’t actually happened. *shrug*

      Dec 3, 2011 at 4:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Aiden
      Aiden

      @Interesting: I wish this was Gawker so I could heart you you. I’m bookmarking this page because there is so much truth in you’re words and it’s written so eloquently.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 5:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @Laughriotgirl: You are right that there has not been as much response by the trans community blogs as there has been by gay blogs. I’ve seen it before. Whites are often defensive and attempt to derail frank discussion about race. Straights do the same about sexual orientation. You never get as many absurd arguments or unproven ones as when you deal with a group in privilege defensively trying to explain why it should have the right to do whatever it wants with a minority group. Remember, again, the conversation at base (and I say this as a gay man who is not trans) is really just about respecting one another. That only becomes a problem for some if they want to see themselves as better than others. In other words, “You need to walk around on egg shells around me. I shouldn’t have to walk around on egg shells for you” We all know people like that. Now write that across a group identity like being gay, or being black, or being any label you can describe, and you get how the game is played. In other words, “my bigotry is okay, but your bigotry is really offensive.”

      Dec 3, 2011 at 5:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Steve
      Steve

      @Laughriotgirl: With regard to your second paragraph, do you really think “tranny” and “fag” are at the same level? The hundred or so years of hateful history connected with fag far outweighs the fairly new idea of tranny as offensive. Tranny used to refer to transvestites, even well into the 90’s.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 5:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @Steve: You run into the same problem whether it started to be offensively used against the trans community in the 90s or the 1950s: The point used by some is to attack the trans community, and its not the right of gay men who are not trans to tell the trans community whether they should or should not be offended by a term that clearly has come to mean or intended to mean something offensive. One can play the game you are playing with nearly any word. There are those who question whether “fag” should be considered offensive. While I am a big believer that no one should have to walk around on egg shells, I am also a big believer that there is o reaon to disrespect others just because one is too immature (which is what this is about on some level) to realize that just because one has the right to say whatever one wants does not mean one should because what is being said can be understood to be intentionally offensive to others. The context here was NPH using the phrase under a context in which he was using it offensively.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 5:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Q
      Q

      @Daniel Villarreal The one thing that is never disclosed is WHY the word tranny is so offensive. It has just suddenly become the zeitgeist that it is a forbidden word, but no one really knows why transgendered folks are so offended by it, other than that they are offended by it, because they say so. If instead of attacking people who don’t realize it is offensive, a better tactic would be to be enlighten us all as to why this word is so terrible, it is being classified in the same set of words as faggot, nigger, etc.

      I’ve done a little research myself, and the only thing I could find was that it is associated with porn, i.e., porn gets labeled “tranny porn” like gay porn gets labeled “gay porn”. That seems pretty mild in comparison to the mighty F and N words. (I’ve never read a “RAID: Kills Trannies Dead” T-shirt, have you? )

      So what, exactly, is so offensive about this term, and why is it only considered offensive in American english (not in British usage to british people), and why is this such a recent phenomenon. Please explain. In detail. With links. Or, better yet, write an article educating us on this subject, rather than just screaming at our allies who use the word innocently, without realizing that there is some loaded context to the word that no one knows about outside of the trans community.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 5:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Christopher
      Christopher

      @daniel Villarreal. Even Pam’s house blend recognizes that it is used as a term of hate on their site

      http://pamshouseblend.firedoglake.com/2009/07/02/i-have-an-angry-inch/

      About 5 minutes of google turned up blogs by transgendered individuals with entries such as “fuck cisgender privilege” and “cisgender privilege checklist”

      If you don’t like the word tranny ..fine. Even though those of us old enough know it was not a derogatory term Until some activists decided so, but don’t pretend cisgender is neutral either.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 5:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      “ranny 291 up, 223 down
      An extremely offensive term for a transsexual man or woman, or any of the transgendered community.

      On the same level as “nigger”, and “cunt” for most people, though, like “dyke”, some of the transgendered community are trying to reclaim the word, without much success.
      “So your girlfriend’s a tranny?” “… Please don’t say that… She’s a woman, just like you are.”

      The context of use is how it becomes offensive. That a trans woman or male are not really the gender they say they are.

      I also took a few minutes to Google to see what would come up for offensive use rather than simply Googling tranny which tends to bring up a lot of the noise. The reason why its offensive is that that it brings up questions of whether the gender change is real or not.

      I will give you example. A bigot over at Joe My God was ranting on one of his thread that GLB should not be connected to T because T’s are just people with psychological problems anyway. That only someone “with psychological issues would ever cut off their dick.”

      The basis of the bigotry is that there is something illegitimate about believing one is of a different gender than the on into which one is born into.

      It is the same as someone telling me as a gay man that there is something abnormal about being gay because biologically the species is supposed to procreate. That we are simply a function of societal determination rather recognizing that each of our biological sense, including down to our neurobiological brain chemistry may in fact be very unique. That someone who feels like they should be another gender may in fact be feeling something just as biological as being gay is, but there is (a) not a lot of research into it (or so I have found) and (b) what research there is tends to be pyschological rather than biological.

      The point is here there is a reason to be offended. Indeed, the comparison to tranvestites underscores the point. If you go back and think about it, the point is that the transvestite is not trying to be a real man or woman. So to compare a tranvestite to someone who is a real trans man or trans woman is pretty offensive. If you are again searching for analogy, it would be loosely like saying being gay is choice because there are situational circumstances in prisons in which straight men will have sex with one another,a nd, therefore all gay sex is just choice.

      Its the whole lumping together that’s the offensive core as far as I can read into it after taking a few min utes to read about it.

      of course, the real issue is that it shouldn’t be up to non trans people to tell trans people that they shouldn’t be offended by what non trans people label them.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 6:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @Christopher: Without even clicking through your link, I can tell that you are twisting here. Privilege has a very specific meaning involving people taking advantage of their power in society while not overtly being bigots, but pretending not to have that privilege. It comes up with heteronormative and racial issues as well. By your logic, if one says one has a problem with heteronormative privilege then one is trying to use a slur. Its clearly the right wing “I know you are but what am I” approach to debate. It tries to claim that the real bigot is the person pointing out the bigotry. Its a pretty classic strategy to derail debate about what the majority or power in a society (depending on the classification) does to the less powerful and not majority in the society. Next time if you are going to play this game, be smart enough not to include words that indicate your ideological bent.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 6:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Christopher
      Christopher [Different person #1 using similar name]

      @ interesting. “without even clicking thru a link”….a very astute way to analyze. Dismissing legitimate argument is a trick of the right wing, but that is not what I am doing, nor can I be described as right wing by anyone. Disagreement with you does not qualify someone to be compared to the “right wing” which is truly an insult as far as I am concerned.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 6:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      there is some evidence of the biological component of being transgendered just as there is for being gay:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#Brain-based_studies

      The problem is that the subject matter has even less research being conducted to understand it than being gay is.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 6:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Christopher
      Christopher [Different person #1 using similar name]

      @ Interesting. By the way, that guy over at JMG with the “cut of his dick” comment is a well known troll, and is usually ignored by more astute observers.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 6:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @Christopher: Using the word “legitimate” does not make it so. Just like if I said I am purple doesn’t make it true. let’s say you are right. What does it fucking matter? There still no reason for people to be calling the trans community something that they don’t want to be called. Your “legitimate” argument amounts to two wrongs make a right, which is not true.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 6:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Christopher
      Christopher [Different person #1 using similar name]

      @interesting. That wasn’t my argument at all. I was responding to a specific post where Daniel Villarreal asked for a link to Pam’s House Blend where cisgender was used as a derogatory term…that’s why it was addressed to him. I was providing a link he asked for 3 times in this post.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 6:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @Christopher: excuse me for assuming you are smart enough to realize the argument is irrelevant. its a change of subject.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 7:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David Ehrenstein
      David Ehrenstein

      @Daniel Villarreal: “Google” is your friend.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 7:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David Ehrenstein
      David Ehrenstein

      @Interesting: Tracy Morgan was supposedly doing his comedy act. But judging from reports by those who were there he stopped the comedy to make this declaration in all seriousness.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 7:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Trans Life
      The Trans Life

      Thoughts on whether Dan Savage is transphobic from a transgendered woman:
      http://thetranslife.com/?p=446

      Dec 3, 2011 at 7:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Christopher
      Christopher [Different person #1 using similar name]

      @interesting. It wasn’t an arguement, I was responding to a specific post, nor is it irrelevant. And since you seem to not accept that you made a simple error, I will say this, which I am sure will send many into a tailspin.

      I have been around a bit, I knew a few of the people at Stonewall, I owned a gay bar when it was still technically illegal to do so, and I provided dressing rooms and make up tables for the patrons who were afraid to wear their outfits on the street. I was raising money when AIDS was still called GRID, and to ask for money for AIDS research got doors slammed in your face. I was harassed by police, who eventually arrested me for “operating a sexually oriented business” because one of my customers took off his shirt on the dancefloor, and I fought it up to the state level where it eventually got dismissed. I have had my property vandalized, been harassed and even beaten once. And as one who has been around for a while,and fought the entire time, I find the complaints about my cisgendered privlege to be offensive.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 7:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @David Ehrenstein: You just said Morgan “may be” is a phobe without admitting you are just speculating. How does that differ from my saying that we know that he was performing at act other than you are than adding your speculation? That’s pretty weak tea upon which you can hold up the hypocritical position on gays saying something offensive about others versus others saying something offensive about gays.

      Look, you and others have very little to stand on here other than meaningless parsing for your hypocritical views. Fair is fair. Own up to it. You have double standards based on whether someone is in your group.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 7:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @Christopher: Your inability to admit its irrelevant is the proof I need to backup my argument that you are fact just trying to change the subject. Again, two wrongs doesn’t make a right. That you are trying to say that they are illustrates more than anything else you keep babbling on about just how much of a phobe you are trying to hide behind fake arguments. Pathetic, but you can keep babbling and I still will not convicned because of simple logic: What someone else does does not justify using bigotted terms. by your logic if you call a straight persona breeder that justifies them calling you a faggot.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 7:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Aiden
      Aiden

      @Christopher: So what you’re saying is people with privilege can’t suffer? My grandmother grew up in the Jim crow south, but that doesn’t mean she never benefited from heterosexual priviledge.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 8:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @Aiden: Yeap, after the Jewish Holocaust, Jews who came to America after the horrors of their experience, would refer to Blacks as “Schvartse,’ which is a derogatory term for Black. One form of suffering does not guarantee the prevention of another. Hell, even within a group, you can’t prevent that.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 8:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @Aiden: Its our ability to discriminate against other groups once we are in ta privileged group that makes me as a gay man and one who is black very careful about playing along to games of saying I get to tell other groups what is offensive to them.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 8:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daniel Villarreal
      Daniel Villarreal [Different person #1 using similar name]

      @David Ehrenstein: So… What you’re saying is that you can’t provide a single link to back up your claim. OK, got it.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 9:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Q
      Q

      @Interesting

      So this is the best explanation of why “Tranny” is offensive:

      “ranny 291 up, 223 down
      An extremely offensive term for a transsexual man or woman, or any of the transgendered community.
      On the same level as “nigger”, and “cunt” for most people, though, like “dyke”, some of the transgendered community are trying to reclaim the word, without much success.
      “So your girlfriend’s a tranny?” “… Please don’t say that… She’s a woman, just like you are.”
      The context of use is how it becomes offensive. That a trans woman or male are not really the gender they say they are.”

      I’m sorry, that is nothing like the terrible N or F words. Unless you’re saying that a person who undergoes surgery suddenly becomes cisgendered, since the example above only points out that the person is not of their born sex. That, in and of itself, should not be offensive, because it is simply pointing out that the person underwent\is undergoing gender re-assignment.

      Would it be acceptable if the statement read “So your girlfriend’s a transwoman“? Is that somehow different.

      Or is it offensive JUST because it points out what someone is transgendered, and if that is the case, is there any word that ISN’T offensive to describe someone who has had gender reassignment that differentiates that status from a person of that gender who was born into it?

      And does that mean that we can never speak of people who undergo gender reassignment in those terms? That’s just slightly tyrannical. And still nothing like the terrible F or N words.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 9:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Q
      Q

      @Daniel Villarreal

      I’m still waiting for your clarification on this topic. That well-researched article would be a great idea, and would show your journalistic merits.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 10:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stephen
      Stephen

      @Daniel Villarreal

      I’ll post again:

      The one thing that is never disclosed is WHY the word tranny is so offensive. It has just suddenly become the zeitgeist that it is a forbidden word, but no one really knows why transgendered folks are so offended by it, other than that they are offended by it, because they say so. Instead of attacking people who don’t realize it is offensive, a better tactic would be to be enlighten us all as to why this specifc word is so terrible, it is being classified in the same set of words as faggot, nigger, etc.

      I’ve done a little research myself, and the only thing I could find was that it is associated with porn, i.e., porn gets labeled “tranny porn” like gay porn gets labeled “gay porn”. That seems pretty mild in comparison to the mighty F and N words. (I’ve never read a “AIDS: Kills Trannies Dead” T-shirt, have you? )

      So what, exactly, is so offensive about this term, and why is it only considered offensive in American english (not in British usage to British people), and why is this such a recent phenomenon. Please explain. In detail. With links. Or, better yet, write an article educating us on this subject, rather than just screaming at our allies who use the word innocently, without realizing that there is some loaded context to the word that no one knows about outside of the trans community.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 10:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @Q: You are basically a bigot so your response to a slur not being “offensive to you” is not evidence that its not a slur. This conversation has no value to someone like you. I didn’t post it for someone like you. It would be like asking a racist what they think of the word nigger or a homophobe what they think of the word faggot. So, of course, you aren’t going to be offended. Why would a bigot be offended by words to describe groups they think lesser of.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 10:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • NelsonG
      NelsonG

      @Daniel Villarreal: I wasn’t asked to offer proof. On the other hand, if you’ll refer to comment 108, I believe you’ll see the utter hypocrisy that has existed with respect to this controversy.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 10:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @Q: Calling me “nigger” is referring to my race, and calling me “faggot” is just describing my sexual orientation. The problem, of course, with this game being played is that it can be played with any label used by a bigot. That a trans person is referred to as a pretend man or woman (which is the point of the slur) is only “description” as long as we play along to the bigots perception of reality. Of course, if we stop doing that, if we started to say “wait a trans woman is a woman” and a “trans male is a male” so the implication that they are not is offensive, that sums up the nature of how the bigotry works. There is a reason this term tries to link tranvestites with the transgendered in that its indicating fake or not real. Just like there is a reason why don’t see “nigger” as just a description of race or “faggot” as just a description of being gay. Its the negative connotation, the part that the bigot glosses over, that’s the problem

      Dec 3, 2011 at 10:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @NelsonG: You actually making an argument that there are not enough resources to cover trans issues rather than that there is hypocritical views. Hypocritical views are “gays can do it but other groups can’t” Hypocritical views are not “we didn’t know that someone else said it” Now, I am curious, can you link to where you saw these comments by these stars?

      Dec 3, 2011 at 10:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jeff
      Jeff

      At least NPH apologized. Dan Savage continues to be a transphobic, biphobic, racist, pozphobic bigot.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 10:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Q
      Q

      @Interesting

      I’m hardly a bigot, but, of course, I can’t prove that to you. I’m also not someone who has never dealt with gender identity issues–I’m just a lot older now, and when I was coming up, I pretty much hid the girl inside after years of brutual child abuse, so to say I am not sympathetic to the issue is a little unfair. Through my teens and early 20’s, I always pictured myself as female–I eventually ended up becoming hypermasculine on the outside as a response (call it a self-defensive reflex) and now I am quite happy with my boy parts, even though sometimes I still like to dress up. But anyhow, I digress.

      Calling me names is just a personal attack in order to avoid answering the question. I’m just asking in order to understand the history of why the term is so offensive, since to most of us, it just seems like a convenient way of saying “not-cisgendered”, and that’s a no-brainer, since the term appears to be a shorter, more familar version of “transgendered”.

      Again, is the word offensive only because it points out that the person underwent gender reassignment, or not? Would the term transwoman be acceptable in the same context, or is it also offensive, for the same reason? Is there a polite term that can be used without fear of reprisal? Is the issue so delicate that we can never acknowledge the fact that the person was brave enough to change their birth gender when discussing our relationships with others?

      Please answer without defaulting to personal attacks. That’s a bullying tactic, and I am trying to keep the discussion civil.

      Remember, you’ll get closer to eliminating the use of the term by educating people about its history as a pejorative. Yelling at them for using the term when they do not understand this history is just going to make them confused.

      Oh, and I’d die before using the N word, since I clearly understand the history of the term. The difference between myself and a bigot is that the bigot would use the word as a weapon ANYWAY fully knowing its history, while ignoring it. As far as the F word goes, well I am it, so I own it.

      So, discuss the history. (Listening Dan?) Help us understand. One possible analogy I just thought of is that maybe it is like the youngsters saying “That’s so gay” to mean something is beneath contempt, flawed, etc. Nothing like the big F word, but still really hurtful. While I can’t recall a direct usage of the term in a pejorative sense like this in my environment, I am ready to be enlightened by your examples.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 11:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ian
      Ian

      Yes, yes…. And in addition, Dan Savage is short phobic, tall phobic, brunette phobic, blonde phobic, sighted phobic, blind phobic, shoe size 10 phobic, bald phobic, top phobic, bottom phobic, southerner phobic, cat lover phobic, dog lover phobic, Italian food lover phobic…… The list just goes on and on and on. How can any of us survive!

      Dec 3, 2011 at 11:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @Q: I demonstrated through your argument how “tranny” which implies trans men and women aren’t real men and women is bigotted, and in your previous response you claimed you didn’t get why its offensive. That’s bigotry.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 11:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @Ian: Dan is a racist because after Prop 8 despite being shown through poll analysts like Nate Silver that he was wrong- that it wasn’t the black vote, it was age and religion that determined outcomes- he has yet to say “I was wrong.” He just took down the offensive post in which he made the outrageous claim.

      From what I understand, the reason why people think of Dan as a transphobe is because he has said rude things about the trans community, and similarly not apologized for it. Instead, he does what we see gay men here doing- becoming defensive, and claiming its your God given right to be jerks to other oppressed groups just because you face oppression as gays

      Dec 3, 2011 at 11:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Q
      Q

      @interesting

      Reading the NPH comment again, I see why that is offensive (it was really derogatory, the voice thing).

      And, I see why the infamous Christian Siriano comment was offensive, since in addition to using the horrible T word, it once again played on a stereotype.

      But asking if a friend’s romantic interest has had a little work done in the nethers is just asking an honest question, and that’s the only part I am having trouble with.

      Is simply asking if or pointing out that someone has had gender reassignment bigoted because supposedly you are stating that they are pretending to be something they aren’t? Is there no polite term to describe the situation without being labeled a hate monger? I’m being serious. Obviously, the dreaded T word is off the table.

      Note that I am not implying that using such a term would mean saying they were pretending to be something they weren’t, since clearly, they are who they are, and have become the gender they are most comfortable with. They were pretending before, I get that, and, believe me, I empathize.

      But, still, there has to be a way to discuss the situation in honest terms without being offensive. So, what’s the polite way of saying FTM or MTF when it is appropriate to discuss or inquire about these differences?

      Please stop calling me a bigot.

      Dec 3, 2011 at 11:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Laughriotgirl
      Laughriotgirl

      @Q: Assuming you are asking why in good faith, I’ll try to answer “why is tranny offensive”. Your comparison to “That’s so gay” is pretty close. Gay, being a word created by gay men to replace the pathologizing homosexual and the hurtful “fairy”, “queer”, “fruit”, etc. Tranny, likewise has a history of being used by trans women toward other trans women (and drag queens and other gender non-conforming trans-feminine folks).

      The issue, as far as I can see, isn’t the word. It is how it is so often used outside of the trans community. Look at the context with the topic of this article. NPH gets a deep voice, so obviously, he “sounds like a tranny”. How can having a deep voice = trans woman (on national TV no less) NOT be just a tad offensive?

      When being trans (or a tranny) becomes an insult used to ridicule non-trans women (Ann Coulter, Kim Kardashian, Wendy Williams, etc.) it stops being a neutral term and becomes loaded. More often than not “Tranny” has come to mean “You are doing femininity wrong and your assertion of your sex/gender is false, because I say so”. The word may have been a cute term batted around by the trannies and the queens, but it’s use outside of that group (and by some gay men in particular) has made it increasingly toxic.

      “Trans” is an even shorter term to use in the (should be) rare cases when one should need to identify a person’s transsexual/transgender status.Generally, though, I think most people prefer man and woman… barring that first names work well.

      Dec 4, 2011 at 12:15 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @Laughriotgirl: Your assessment is about my view of the subject. I would like to add this point was already explained to Q in different ways. That the reason why it is offensive is that it is being used to call into question the legitimacy of who someone is. Its a put down like “oh, that’s not a real woman or man” To me, a lot of these things can be understood by looking at how bigotry works with other groups. Almost everyone of them relies on the intrinsic characteristic of that group as a way attacking or question the worth of members of that group based on the characteristic. The key here is that trans (not always) but generally if about transitioning from a gender from which one may have been born into to one that is what one really is.To then call into question that gender that one really is is to be attacking the very characteristic that defines the issue. Similar can be seen with race, with sexual orientation, and with other classification. When someone calls me a “nigger” they are doing so to attack the very characteristic that defines me as something to be attacked. The same with calling me a “faggot” it almost certainly has feels like bigotry to me when a group has asked not to be called something and people are still asserting their privilege as outsiders of that group to call them that name anyway. that they get to choose what is offensive to the grop that they are questioning in the first place. Indeed, if you go to some of the comments on sites like Joe My God, its very clear that this is about for some asserting their problems with the trans community, whether political (you aren’t like us) or clear phobia (there’s something wrong with you for having transitioned etc). So, when I see all of that- although I am gay and not trans, I am going to think bigotry fuels it because I have learned to see bigotry for what it is- attacking a characteristic for being that characteristic.

      Dec 4, 2011 at 12:35 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Q
      Q

      @Laughriotgirl

      Jesus, thank you. That’s all I was asking for, and, yes, Ann Coulter, yes… OK. Get it. Thanks for answering that with respect, I appreciate it.

      I see why calling her a “tranny” is offensive to actual transwomen, who are definitely not drag performers.

      (Yep, I know drag queens are character actors who playing caricatures of women and aren’t (usually) actual transwomen)

      However…would it still be OK to say Ann Coulter looks like a drag queen? :)

      Peace, and thanks again for being civil, honest, and forthright, while respecting the original use of the term “tranny” within gay subculture. I finally got it.

      Also, I nominate you for comment of the week.

      @Interesting

      See? See how far treating someone with respect can go? Stop being so mean and quick to label other people asking honest questions. Your insistence in placing me in a cis-box kept you from hearing what I was really asking. One may even call that sort of behavior “bigoted” or “cis-phobic”. Just kidding. Have a happy night.

      Dec 4, 2011 at 12:39 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Q
      Q

      OK, so I’ll try to answer my own question in short form.

      Q. Why is the term “Tranny” so offensive?
      A. Because it is used disparage transpeople by comparing them to drag performers, who aren’t actually trans, and thereby calls into question the authenticity of their transition.

      Piece of cake, and totally get it now. Thanks again, Laughriotgirl. Feel free to correct me if I am still deluded.

      Dec 4, 2011 at 12:58 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sarah
      sarah

      @Daddles:
      i agree. everyone should be aloud the same federal rights as anyone. no matter how anyone identifies they shouldn’t be thought less of. their personalities are what you should base people on. no one should be denied the right to live their private lives because of how they identify. and if someone has an identity they like to be called then you should respect that. i would never tell my trans friends that i wouldnt call them by the pronouns they prefer because i didnt think they were femme or masculine enough. i maybe female bodied but my mind isnt. i borderline the two and no one should tell me im less of a person because im not femme enough to be female bodied. and im appalled to hear that anyone in our community would do so. how many feminine gay men were ostracized for being that way? how many lesbian women for being too butch? how anyone represents themselves is their own personal business not to be directed by people who want to be so normal and mainstream that it compels them to try to make others the same. isnt that what our parents tried to do to us? tried to make us normal, make us date and marry people we didnt love so they could have the perfect family image? im extremely dissappointed in the people who didnt look on their family lives who had to deal with this and then say these things.

      Dec 4, 2011 at 12:58 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Henry Holland
      Henry Holland

      No. 97 · bobo
      @henry holland, if it’s so fucking tired, you need to fucking retire already. we don’t need your toxic self-hating ass, the queer community is evolving without you. yeah, life goes on…without you

      Jeebus, you’re as dense as a neutron star. The whole NPH thing has played out EXACTLY like the script I outlined, it’s as fucking predictable as the sun rising and setting every day. I’ve seen it with at least 3 NFL players in the last year, among many examples.

      Especially laughable are the dimwits at places like GLAAD –shouldn’t that be LGAAD, because to put G first is cis-male sexism obviously– who put out their faux-outraged press releases and when the person apologizes, often just to get people like you to shut the fuck up, they’re never heard from again, until the next faux-outrage or its time to do their stupid awards show. (Note: I did temp work at GLAAD for two weeks, that was enough).

      “Toxic”? “Self-hating”? For FSM’s sake, could twerps like you PLEASE come up with some new cliches? Just because someone disagrees doesn’t make them “self-hating”, it means….wait for it…they disagree with you.

      “The queer community is evolving”? Buwhahahahahahaha. Right, we’re at the stage the Soviets were ca. 1935, metaphorically shooting people for thought crimes. Next on the “queer community” agenda: purges of anyone who doesn’t 100% agree that asexual’s (the A in LGBTTQIA) are a viciously oppressed minority!

      Dec 4, 2011 at 4:55 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Riker
      Riker

      “cis” is offensive not because of its clinical meaning, but because of how it is used. I’ve often seen, even in comments on this very site, long strings of invectives such as “privileged white gay cis male gender-normative” etc to put down gay men who dare say ANYTHING that differs slightly from the pro-inclusion LGBTQQIAAOMGWTFBBQ party line.

      Here’s a hint: if you are talking about a person and need to preface it with mor than two adjectives, you’re being bigoted. I’ve seen the radical right do the exact same thing talking about “radical atheist liberal homosexual militant” activists.

      So, here’s the deal: You stop using “cis” as a put-down, and I stop using “tranny” as a put down. Deal?

      Dec 4, 2011 at 9:21 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Riker
      Riker

      “cis” is offensive not because of its clinical meaning, but because of how it is used. I’ve often seen, even in comments on this very site, long strings of invectives such as “privileged white gay cis male gender-normative” etc to put down gay men who dare say ANYTHING that differs slightly from the pro-inclusion LGBTQQIAAOMGWTFBBQ party line.

      Here’s a hint: if you are talking about a person and need to preface it with mor than two adjectives, you’re being bigoted. I’ve seen the radical right do the exact same thing talking about “radical atheist liberal homosexual militant” activists.

      So, here’s the deal: You stop using “cis” as a put-down, and I stop using “tranny” as a put down. Deal?

      @Henry Holland: RAmen

      Dec 4, 2011 at 9:23 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David Ehrenstein
      David Ehrenstein

      @Interesting: “Speculation”? Oh Prunella!

      Dec 4, 2011 at 10:20 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • R.A.
      R.A.

      @Daniel Villarreal:
      No, it is not a slur, but it is ideology posing as science.
      There is no reason in the world that any human should refer to himself as “cisgendered” other than to make transgendered people feel happy.
      If you want to buy into this trans-marxism, go ahead, but I will always call this out as ridiculous.
      It is insulting to the intelligence of the gay community that they must buy into this absurd ideology in order to avoid being called “transphobic.”

      Dec 4, 2011 at 1:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Laughriotgirl
      Laughriotgirl

      @R.A.: There is no reason for a person to refer to themselves as straight unless it is to make gay people happy, or let them know you aren’t interested. Believe me, non-gay people don’t mention sexual orientation unless there is a gay person around.

      Dec 4, 2011 at 1:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @David Ehrenstein: Yes speculation as in you need to rationalize your hypocritical views so you start speculating to rationalize it.

      Dec 4, 2011 at 3:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bryan
      Bryan

      I thought the rules on “tranny” would be the same on the silly rules about reclaiming “fag” where it’s okay to use the word if you’re a member of the LGBT community and in the right context?

      Anyways, I don’t see how Tracey Morgan is comparable to this case, comedy act or not, he said something about killing a gay son if he ever had one. I think NPH’s comments are relatively harmless, coupled with the fact that he’s a member of the LGBT community while Morgan’s comments sounded more hate filled.

      Dec 4, 2011 at 4:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • R.A.
      R.A.

      @Laughriotgirl:

      You are trying to establish a parallel that does not exist.

      Gay and straight are completely political terms that have come about from common usage. Gay people do not insist that anyone address themselves as “straight” unlike transgendered ideology which insists on our calling ourselves “cisgendered. It sounds like science, but it’s actually no better than Louis Farrakhan’s sun people and ice people, the Jewish construction Goyum, or Christians calling everyone else pagans.

      I know of no other political alliance where one of the sub-groups promotes an ideology that portrays other members of the group as the enemy and insists that they not only embrace their particular ideological worldview but refer to themselves by a name they did not originate and resent.

      As you can see, the more you try to control gay men, the more push-back you will get – thank God.

      That said, I repeat as I have said all along, “tranny” is not a respectful term and should not be used.

      The “cisgendered” nonsense does not excuse it.

      Dec 4, 2011 at 5:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gays will make it Bachman2012 (John from England)
      The Gays will make it Bachman2012 (John from England)

      Hmm, have to say I agree with Riker, Q et al AND I’m a liberal but then I’m English. This would get totally laughed at in the UK.

      But interesting convo never the less and I do think although we have more rights in the UK, as well as having advanced gay rights by far, you guys across the pond are a lot more like activists, which although you can’t strategise-how many more failed Marriage Equality campaigns!- for sh*t nor get along, there is a lot of spirit which we could use here!

      Dec 4, 2011 at 5:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @R.A.: You are using a variation of “to be tolerant one must accept my intolerance” argument. Basically, for you to “not be controlled” requires the trans community to let you say whatever you want to say, no matter ho w insulting about the trans community. Its cute. Right wingers have been doing this since the Civil Rights era for black people. “You are trying to ‘control’ me by not allowing me to treat you like a door mat. You are the one who is not tolerant of my intolerance.”

      Dec 4, 2011 at 6:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • R.A.
      R.A.

      No. 173 · Interesting
      Absolutely not.
      Exactly what did I say that is intolerant?
      Again, I have condemned the use of terms like “tranny” in no uncertain terms.
      In a tolerant world, everyone gets to name themselves – not others.
      If there actually is an LGBTI movement, it must have a common purpose and no group should indulge in ideologies that are divisive.
      Some of the guys posting here are certainly unrepentent hate-mongers.
      Others, like me, just don’t like being told we must betray our minda, junk our educations, and parrot somebody else’s religion.

      Dec 4, 2011 at 8:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dan
      Dan

      @ No. 171 R.A.

      Amen

      Dec 4, 2011 at 9:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Riker
      Riker

      @The Gays will make it Bachman2012 (John from England): I’m honestly surprised; we almost always come down on the opposite sides of things.

      If trans people want us to respect what they want to be called, they have to be willing to respect what we want to be called. “cis” is a diminutive form of a borderline scientific term. “tranny” is a diminutive form of a scientific term.

      I’m completely willing to accept that the word tranny may be offensive to a significant portion of that community and should not be used in general conversation. However, i’ll stop insulting them when they stop insulting GLB people for being who we are.

      Their rants about white gay cis male privilege are intolerable; they want us to feel ashamed that statistically speaking our lives are easier than theirs. I refuse to feel ashamed or buy into modern-day white guilt.

      Dec 4, 2011 at 10:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @R.A.: You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

      This statement by you ” just don’t like being told we must betray our minda, junk our educations, and parrot somebody else’s religion” betrays this statement by you “I have condemned the use of terms like “tranny” in no uncertain terms” considering the conversation is about the use “tranny” as a slur against the trans community.

      What religion?

      Are we talking a religion here or are you talking about the right to lord it over those over whom you hold the privilege of being born into the gender in which you feel you were meant to be?

      The continually irony is how much many of you mirror homophobes.

      We are discussing a group not being asked to be subject to whatever you want to say to them that they find to be offensive. That’s about it. The rest is luggage you adding on to the conversation.

      This isn’t religon here. You aren’t arguing about whether they believe in an invisible guy up in the sky. You are attacking something that’s very real, and that’s very much the subject about which they face discrimination.

      That’s why these arguments are all sophistry and red herrings.

      But cutting through the spin (comments about “religion” under the context is spin), one is left with “I want to do whatever the fuck I want, and if anyone says anything about it. I am going to so twist it as to make myself right.” That’s privilege. Its the same kind of privilege that say gay men can get married because they can marry women. That blacks are the one’s with the problem because they get angry over racism. That the poor are to blame for their problems because they accepted unfair deals under circumstances in which their finance left them with few if any other choices.

      Walk a while in someone else’s shoes, and worry a little less about your own privilege.

      Dec 4, 2011 at 10:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      Derailing arguments for dummies covers many of the arguments being thrown by the bigots who faking like they aren’t bigots above:

      (a) other trans men and women use the term, and, therefore, its okay for me to use it

      http://www.derailingfordummies.com/#youareworse

      THis is a variation of the derailing argument of “You do it to yourselves” so this therefore justifies me argument

      (b) Included in (a) is the “I know another trans person in your group who disagrees” approach

      http://www.derailingfordummies.com/#backup

      (c) What RA, DAN and multiple others are doing above is the classic and final safeguard on holding defensive posturing to rationalize bigotry

      “That’s when you say to them: you are just as bad as the people who oppress you!”

      Definitely one of the last tactics you should bring out if you’re finding that the Marginalised Person™ is simply relentless and you are running out of options.

      “This one is an outright insult. By now they have probably ripped all your prejudices apart and harshly criticised both your attitudes and the Privileged® system you reside within. You are probably taking it very personally because it’s shaking the foundations of your beliefs and making you confront aspects of your own behaviour and nature that you would rather not.

      That’s when you say to them: you are just as bad as the people who oppress you!

      Because they’re angry about the treatment they undergo and because they are aggressive and persistent in wanting to see change happen, you can target this behaviour (remembering that it is unseemly for Marginalised People™ – they’re supposed to set an example at all times by being humble and long-suffering) by suggesting it puts them on a par with the people and system that stigmatise, ostracise and target them every second of every day of their lives. This also suggests that reacting to such discrimination is totally unreasonable and out of proportion (they should just take their knocks!) and that has the benefit of indicating your ignorance to just how pervasive and constant this discrimination truly is.

      This one is important if you really want to demonstrate what a scumbag you are so do be careful to whip it out at precisely the right moment. Used correctly and it can be something of a slamdunk!”

      http://www.derailingfordummies.com/#asbad

      When I say every argument above has been heard by other groups before- that’s because they have.

      You aren’t doing anything new under the sun in your attempts to derail the criticism of using the word “tranny.”

      Rationalize it as you must, but to anyone remotely familiar of how this sort of thing plays out, its all you are doing is rationalizing.

      Dec 4, 2011 at 10:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BubbasBack
      BubbasBack

      It´s all Dan Savage´s fault. Burp.

      Dec 4, 2011 at 11:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • R.A.
      R.A.

      No. 178 · Interesting,

      You would make a great telemarketer.

      No thought would ever get between you and the script.

      Dec 5, 2011 at 12:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @R.A.: “Derailing for Dummies” predicts your arguments. Predicting your arguments does not mean I can’t think off script- it means your script is predictable. That you have no response other than to try to flip the argument’s meaning says you have not really thought much about any of what you throw out to the world. I don’t expect you to start now. But it is ironic and kind of funny to see you whine about the fact that you are so predictable by claiming that means others have only a limited script. You aren’t that complicated. That’s the entire fucking point.

      Dec 5, 2011 at 1:09 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @R.A.: I see you no longer deny the fact you were talking out of both sides of your mouth.

      Dec 5, 2011 at 1:12 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • R.A.
      R.A.

      No.
      I’ve just given up on you as a person capable of any nuanced thinking.
      If Sara Buechner played piano the way you reason, she’d only use her elbows.

      Dec 5, 2011 at 1:55 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dan
      Dan

      Interesting can’t handle being wrong; labels everyone a bigot. Interesting is apparently suffering an anheurism, hormonal imbalance, or general idiocy.

      Dec 5, 2011 at 11:09 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David Ehrenstein
      David Ehrenstein

      @Interesting: The Trans community can say whatever it likes.

      And so can I.

      Dec 5, 2011 at 11:46 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • R.A.
      R.A.

      Well, I’ve known a couple of transgendered people and they were nothing like these internet harpies who sound like they’ve just read the Das Kapital of gender.

      It must be very freeing to find an ideology that tells you that whenever people are not persuaded by your rude and ignorant behavior, it’s “predictable” because they’re exerting their “cisgendered privilege.”

      Dec 5, 2011 at 12:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Aiden
      Aiden

      @Riker: Are we making generalizations about a whole group of people? That’s what it sounds like. What you’re saying is that until every trans person treats you with respect you won’t treat any of them with it?

      Dec 5, 2011 at 2:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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