SOUNDBITES — “All the gay media circles and this industry that’s been created about being gay, they try to push their own agendas and stereotypes of what you should be. They’re trapping me and themselves. A lot of it is based on outdated ideas about what gay is or what gay people want or what is sexy. I don’t think about it that much. I don’t care. I’m attracted to other men and that’s the end of it.” —Shortbus star and musician Jay Brannan on the gay elite
Jay Brannan
“All the gay media circles created about being gay try to push their own agendas and stereotypes of what you should be. They’re trapping me and themselves”
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Chisne
I disagree. It’s not about trapping ourselves, but about embracing our culture. If I was straight, I doubt I’d be the same person I was. Being gay isn’t about who we sleep with, but our essence as human beings.
Equal Measure
That’s exactly the point of his statement, though, Chisne. If the only de-facto defining characteristic of being gay is sleeping with men, then where exactly does this culture come from?
And if being gay requires something other than being attracted to men, like the acceptance of a set of stereotypes that’s been precariously labeled a culture, or the belief that this attraction fundamentally alters our essence as human beings, why do we constantly see people being accused of being in the closet simply because they might have had sex with another man?
After all, either wanting to sleep with men is what makes you gay, or it doesn’t. You can’t just change your definitions any time it suits your argument.
Mr. Enemabag Jones
Unfortunately what we’re seeing with people like Mr. Brannan, is a generation of queers who want to get their prostate polished, but don’t want to be homosexuals. Somewhere along the line young queers decided that being gay is not cool, nor is it acceptable to identify as such. But they can’t quite shake their need to get that anal itch scratched. For people like Mr. Brannan I would suggest finding a woman with a penchant for strap-ons and he will no longer have to deal with all us uppity, suffocating homos and he can spend the rest of his life “passing” while with his straight friends.
Equal Measure
No. 3 doesn’t seem to read before he comments, since he’s missed the point. The guy in question is going to be in a movie where he plays a character who has a ménage à trois with a gay couple… That’s not exactly “passing”.
The guy identifies himself as gay, he just doesn’t think that the gay community or media should dictate how he (or anyone else) should act.
“[…]they try to push their own agendas and stereotypes of what you should be. They’re trapping me and themselves.”
sam
I couldn’t agree more. I seem to meet a lot of dudes in NYC who seem to regard ‘gay’ as something they do, almost more than something they just happen to be.
Mr. Enemabag Jones
No. 3 doesn’t seem to read before he comments, since he’s missed the point.
Really? Please elaborate.
The guy in question is going to be in a movie where he plays a character who has a menage a trois with a gay couple
Oh! You mean “Shortbus” which came out in 2006? Which one of us isn’t reading?
That’s not exactly “passing”.
Considering he only got the role of a gay man, because he’s a gay man, makes one wonder what exactly he’s bitching about.
Mr. Enemabag Jones
I seem to meet a lot of dudes in NYC who seem to regard ‘gay’ as something they do
Sam you should get on your kness every night and thank your maker that men like them exist, otherwise you’d be a closet case in a loveless marriage of convenience.
People who are Gay, rather than just gay gave us the freedom to be ourselves that we enjoy today.
Equal Measure
“Oh! You mean “Shortbus” which came out in 2006? Which one of us isn’t reading?”
Oooh, caught me on a pop-culture detail that’s totally unrelated to the point. Good find.
“Considering he only got the role of a gay man, because he’s a gay man, makes one wonder what exactly he’s bitching about.”
He’s bitching about a media that seems to be glorifying and perpetuating a view of gay identity that’s stereotypical and increasingly outdated. What that has to do with a movie role that he got is beyond me.
“People who are Gay, rather than just gay gave us the freedom to be ourselves that we enjoy today.”
Therefore we should be just like them. God forbid that we actually enjoy the freedom to be ourselves, you know.
jason
Embracing our culture? Give me a break! What culture? Cruising through sex clubs at night? Sniffing amyl at dance parties? If that’s “gay culture”, I don’t want a bar of it.
I don’t subscribe to the gurus of gay culture and their edicts. I do my own thing.
jason
One of the problems is that the word “gay” has been mis-used by the marketing gurus. It’s been turned into a commercial construct, one that is designed to make money for a very small number of individuals.
If you took away the word “gay”, it would ruin their marketing strategies, and hence their ability to make money. No wonder the marketing gurus get offended when you challenge their “gay” industry.
Mr. Enemabag Jones
Oooh, caught me on a pop-culture detail that’s totally unrelated to the point. Good find.
You accused me of not reading the story, when clearly i have and you had not.
He’s bitching about a media that seems to be glorifying and perpetuating a view of gay identity that’s stereotypical and increasingly outdated.
Such as? Much like Mr. Brannan, neither of you are providing any details, nor the names of this monolithic “gay media” that is apparently controllng our very gay lives.
What that has to do with a movie role that he got is beyond me.
You mentioned the movie role.
Therefore we should be just like them.
Says who? I’ve seen far too many queers distancing themselves from the folks who came before us, that they’re bordering on EXODUS territory.
God forbid that we actually enjoy the freedom to be ourselves, you know.
You were given that freedom by the queers who came before you and fought the battles that gave us our freedom to BE whatever we want to be. Too many are forgetting that
M.W.
While there’s a cheap laugh to be had at Comment #3’s expense, riddled with ironies as it is, it’s a disturbing case study of everything wrong with the identity politics of the gay movement.
In telling him to go fuck a woman – like it or leave it, essentially – Mr. Jones marginalizes Brannan through the same homophobic, self-righteous, and normalizing rhetoric through which the “gay movement” itself has been forced the fringe of society. The oppressor has become the oppressed.
“Queerness” SHOULD NOT be considered a monolithic, defined, normal identity category. Any attempt to claim it as a locus of solidarity in this respect makes the same mistake of Second Wave feminism’s denouncement of lesbianism, and subsequently Lesbian Feminism’s demonizing of the gay male. Those who cannot learn from history, it would appear, are doomed to repeat it.
Sexual desire is far to complex, contradictory, “queer,” if you will, to fit the Hetero/Homo binary – a binary implicitly hierarchical. So-called “normal” identity categories such as these must be defined against an “unnatural” Other (capital O).
I’m sure I’m not the only one to sympathize with poor Brannon. His comment exemplifies an alienation and ambivalence that I’d argue many men who experience homoerotic desire face. Forced to struggle against a shallow, commodified homosexual subjectivity to which one is expected to conform.
Lady Ga-Gasp
Is there any gay media elite left? Online gay media, maybe, but much less full of themselves than the old school types.
Mr. Enemabag Jones
What culture?
Oscar Wilde; Walt Whitman; Harry Hay.
Cruising through sex clubs at night? Sniffing amyl at dance parties?
Who are you–Bill Donahue’s speech writer?
Why don’t you provide examples of where gay media has promoted these activities. Hell, you’re here on Queerty. Show me links to blog posts where they promote sex clubs and drug use as the definitive gay “lifestyle”.
If that’s “gay culture”, I don’t want a bar of it.
And if that’s what you consider to be gay culture, you need to get away from your computer and see the real world.
I don’t subscribe to the gurus of gay culture and their edicts.
Examples? Who are these elite gay media personas who are controlling all we live, see and breath?
I do my own thing.
Which oddly enough, makes you just another follower. But you don’t see that. But just to enlighten us–what is your own “thing”?
You don’t go out with friends? You don’t sleep with men? You don’t read gay authers; or watch gay themed films? You on’t keep up with queer politics?
One of the problems is that the word “gay” has been mis-used by the marketing gurus.
What? Now our lives are being controlled by Mad Men?
It’s been turned into a commercial construct, one that is designed to make money for a very small number of individuals.
Again, please provide names, not generalizations.
If you took away the word “gay”, it would ruin their marketing strategies, and hence their ability to make money.
And Freemasons control the world!
No wonder the marketing gurus get offended when you challenge their “gay” industry.
So you’re anti-gay, or anti-capitalism? I really don’t understand your assemblage of post-gay, communist and collectivist ideas
Mr. Enemabag Jones
it’s a disturbing case study of everything wrong with the identity politics of the gay movement.
Here comes the psychobabble.
In telling him to go fuck a woman
I didn’t tell him to go fuck women. Quite the opposite, actually.
essentially Mr. Jones marginalizes Brannan through the same homophobic, self-righteous, and normalizing rhetoric through which the “gay movement” itself has been forced the fringe of society.
Nope. I’m opening Mr. Brannan up to other possibilites that may make him feel like a more rounded person. Since he seems to feel that gay culture is stifling, I’ve offered up another avenue that he may pursue.
The oppressor has become the oppressed.
Your victim mentality is showing.
“Queerness” SHOULD NOT be considered a monolithic, defined, normal identity category.
Who says it is? Except the people who wish to create a new monolithic groupthink, wherein noting but disdain is held for those who came before us.
Any attempt to claim it as a locus of solidarity in this respect makes the same mistake of Second Wave feminism’s denouncement of lesbianism, and subsequently Lesbian Feminism’s demonizing of the gay male.
Yawn. Camille Paglia must be absolutely wet for you.
Those who cannot learn from history, it would appear, are doomed to repeat it.M
As presented by our failure to secure equal marriage.
Sexual desire is far to complex, contradictory, “queer,” if you will, to fit the Hetero/Homo binary a binary implicitly hierarchical. So-called “normal” identity categories such as these must be defined against an “unnatural” Other (capital O).
Yep, there’s the psychobabble. A lot of pretty words that don’t say anything.
I’m sure I’m not the only one to sympathize with poor Brannon.
Victims are adept at finding martyrs among the braying masses.
His comment exemplifies an alienation and ambivalence that I’d argue many men who experience homoerotic desire face.
CoughbullshitCough
Forced to struggle against a shallow, commodified homosexual subjectivity to which one is expected to conform.
Yes, and Mr. Brannan escaped that “commodified homosexual subjectivity” by having sex on film with two strangers for money and fame–the complete and total opposite of what he rails against in the above linked article article. Let’s cast him a graven image and worship at his feet.
Equal Measure
“Such as? Much like Mr. Brannan, neither of you are providing any details, nor the names of this monolithic “gay media” that is apparently controllng our very gay lives.”
Defining, not controlling. Every time gay media (or the mainstream media, for that matter) encourages the conflation of being gay with things that are ultimately irrelevant to sexuality (fashion, choice of music, televisions shows, etc) they help maintain a constrained definition of what is or isn’t “gay” in the public consciousness. Being accepting of one’s own sexuality has nothing to do with how someone walks, talks, or the sorts of things that they do or like (other than those actions and inclinations that are directly informed it, i.e. wanting to sleep with men). Unfortunately, the persistence of “gay culture” reinforces a very constrained understanding of what it is to be gay, both inside the community and out.
“Says who? I’ve seen far too many queers distancing themselves from the folks who came before us, that they’re bordering on EXODUS territory.”
Which is a sad thing, but it’s still their right. Being gay isn’t about defining yourself around a particular set of sociocultural norms, it’s about being attracted to people of the same sex. F9r a community that’s supposedly based on being an individual in spite of what the “normal” world would want, the gay community seems to have a fairly homogeneous view of gay identity.
“You were given that freedom by the queers who came before you and fought the battles that gave us our freedom to BE whatever we want to be. Too many are forgetting that”
And too many people forget about things like the GayPA, who got homosexuality taken out of the DSM-IV, ending years of having our sexuality categorized as a pathological mental illness. They “passed” (as you call it) well enough to get the APA to listen to reason, rather than simply dismissing them as a radical protest group. It took a lot more than Stonewall to change the face of gay life in this country.
Mr. Enemabag Jones
Defining, not controlling.
A definition of queer culture is merely an attempt to explain, or describe the basic nature of queer culture.
Every time gay media…encourages the conflation of being gay with things that are ultimately irrelevant to sexuality…they help maintain a constrained definition of what is or isn’t “gay” in the public consciousness.
Nothing is written in stone. A journalist decides to try and explain a situation for their readers to undertand a situation that they may, or may not have experienced. There is no such thing as a “gay agenda”. For every one writer who tries, as you claim, to associate the superfluous with gay culture, there is another writing the opposite. Andrew Sullivan, for lack of a better example.
Being accepting of one’s own sexuality has nothing to do with how someone walks, talks, or the sorts of things that they do or like (other than those actions and inclinations that are directly informed it, i.e. wanting to sleep with men).
Now you’re talking about character, rather than culture. Which is it?
Unfortunately, the persistence of “gay culture” reinforces a very constrained understanding of what it is to be gay, both inside the community and out.
So in other words, you’re seking a homogenous society where everyone just “is”? Won’t happen in either of our lifetimes.
Which is a sad thing, but it’s still their right.
Is it their right to bemoan the current state of gay media, or culture, yet present a similar archaic way of being, or acting? Bassically what we’re hearing from some queer corners today is, “Go back in your closet.” Open the door to your sexuality only when you want to fuck, otherwise keep it closed.
Being gay isn’t about defining yourself around a particular set of sociocultural norms, it’s about being attracted to people of the same sex.
How is it any different for one group to tell queers to act up, or act out; and have another group tell queers to go along to get a long? Essentially, you’re reducing queerness to a sexual activity. I’ve never heard a het say, “I’m straight, but I’m nothing like those straights.”? Yet we constantly hear queers try to convinve eveyone within earshot that they are a diffeent kind of queer–as if the other kind should be feared, or at the very least, viewed with suspicion.
F9r a community that’s supposedly based on being an individual in spite of what the “normal” world would want, the gay community seems to have a fairly homogeneous view of gay identity.
That’s an odd thing to write, considering how normal many queers want to be seen as–or are in actuallity.
They “passed” (as you call it) well enough to get the APA to listen to reason, rather than simply dismissing them as a radical protest group.
They may have “passed”, but they didn’t try to distance themselves from the queer community, in order to “fit in” with the straight community.
Jamie
“All the gay media circles created about being gay try to push their own agendas and stereotypes of what you should be. ”
Take the word gay out of that quote and it would be equally true. Isn’t that what the media has always done?
Equal Measure
“A definition of queer culture is merely an attempt to explain, or describe the basic nature of queer culture. […] Now you’re talking about character, rather than culture. Which is it?”
At no point during this have I brought up queer culture, and most of the times I’ve referenced gay culture I’ve used quotes to mark sarcasm. My entire point is regarding gay identity as a personal identity, not queer culture as a whole. There’s a pretty marked difference. Take cross-dressing for example. I’ve got no problems with counting that as being a part of queer culture. You could argue that transvestites had a hand in forming queer culture. On the other hand, being gay doesn’t mean you automatically consider yourself a member of the queer culture. As you said, take a look at Andrew Sullivan.
“Essentially, you’re reducing queerness to a sexual activity. I’ve never heard a het say, “I’m straight, but I’m nothing like those straights.”? Yet we constantly hear queers try to convinve eveyone within earshot that they are a diffeent kind of queer–as if the other kind should be feared, or at the very least, viewed with suspicion.”
Nope. I’m defining a sexual orientation as a sexual orientation, and not conflating a sexual identity with a movement’s culture. That’s why you don’t hear that from heterosexuals. Because there isn’t a heterosexual culture for people to define themselves against. This comparison doesn’t work because being “a queer” is about being a part of the “queer culture”, whereas all being a heterosexual means is that you’re sexually attracted to the opposite sex. You’re not even comparing apples and oranges, here. You’re comparing apples and Volvos.
“They may have “passed”, but they didn’t try to distance themselves from the queer community, in order to “fit in” with the straight community.”
Actually, as mental health professionals, they had to completely distance themselves from the queer community in order to keep from losing their licenses, and livelihoods. After all, the APA isn’t going to let people with a pathological mental illness function as a mental health professional.
Mr. Enemabag Jones
So basically, Equal Measure, you’ve reduced gayness to nothing more than a sexual activity. How banal.
Mr. Enemabag Jones
Actually, as mental health professionals, they had to completely distance themselves from the queer community in order to keep from losing their licenses, and livelihoods.
Proof that GayPA did this?
RLS
I can’t believe this is going over all of your heads. What Jay obviously means is that our entire gay media culture is based upon an ideal that is virtually unattainable for most of us. Our gay media tells us you must be: rich, white, male, and in perfect shape with impeccable fashion sense. The reality is that most of use don’t fit into that mold, but our gay media (which includes Queerty) keeps pushing this ideal and trapping us within it. This isn’t unlike female-focused media that focuses on the stick-thin ideal. The irony here is that Jay Brannan fits most, if not all of the things that the gay media makes it so important to be. That probably makes it easier for him to take such a casual attitude toward the whole thing.
Lady Ga-Gasp
Well, RLS, for once I agree. I plan on launching “fat, miserable and broke” Magazine as soon as I can convert my $50,000 Marlboro bucks into seed money. It will be a panoply of misery on every page. I envision it as sort of a Butt magazine, but with a look and feel more like a pimply ass. And since its devoted readers are all “real” people, I’ll give it away free. I’m counting on ‘misery advertisers’ to beat a path to my door.
Equal Measure
#21:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_E._Fryer
“Dr. John E. Fryer M.D. was an American psychiatrist and gay rights activist best known for his anonymous speech at the 1972 American Psychiatric Association annual conference where he appeared in disguise and under the name Dr H. Anonymous. This event has been cited as a key factor in the decision to de-list homosexuality as a mental illness from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. […] At a time when homosexuality was still listed as a mental illness, Fryer was the first gay American psychiatrist to speak publicly about his sexuality.”
“Dr Fryer’s speech started with the words “I am a homosexual. I am a psychiatrist” and continued to describe the lives of the many gay psychiatrists among the American Psychiatric Association who had to hide their sexuality from their colleagues for fear of discrimination, and from fellow homosexuals owing to the disdain in which the psychiatric profession was held among the gay community.”
Rob W.
Mr. Enemabag Jones, what’s nice about your style of parsing out comments into short quotes to respond to individually is that you get to sneak past the lines that you have no response to. You never responded to where Equal Measure said in the beginning (comment no. 4), “The guy identifies himself as gay, he just doesn’t think that the gay community or media should dictate how he (or anyone else) should act.”
Because that’s the central point of this, freedom from a uniform identity. Reading all your comments, you sound like a shrill bitter thing, someone only comfortable when people fit into clean cut identities for you to accept or reject. Where do bisexual people fit into your worldview? Let go of the identity politics and realize that the queer umbrella is bigger than just “Gay” (borrowing your capital G).
Mr. Enemabag Jones
Mr. Enemabag Jones, what’s nice about your style of parsing out comments into short quotes to respond to individually is that you get to sneak past the lines that you have no response to.
I post replies to points that I think will advance the debate. I appreciate that you took the time to read my commnets. I suppose you did, at least.
“The guy identifies himself as gay, he just doesn’t think that the gay community or media should dictate how he (or anyone else) should act.”
What’s to respond? Where have i indicated that I disagree with this? What i disagree with is queers bitvhing and moaning about gay media, and how it presents queers, our culture and our lives; while they themselves present yet another, assinin model of how to live, be, and think. What Mr. Branna wants to do is switch one-for lack of a better term–paragigm, with another, just as rigid, paradigm.
Because that’s the central point of this, freedom from a uniform identity.
And again i ask, what uniform identity are the gay media forcing us to abide by? Is there a gun to your head forcing you to be, act, dres, talk a certain way? that you are free to dissent from what you consider an inabuility to be yourself, shows that your argument, Mr. Brannan’s and Equal Measures arguments are moot.
Reading all your comments, you sound like a shrill bitter thing, someone only comfortable when people fit into clean cut identities for you to accept or reject.
Wow. A name calling, bitchy queen. Way to fight those stereotypes, Rob.
Where do bisexual people fit into your worldview?
Don’t really care.
Let go of the identity politics and realize that the queer umbrella is bigger than just “Gay” (borrowing your capital G).
Identity politcs are what have given us the freedom we have today, Rob. You’re welcome to spend your life convincing straight society that we are just like them. However, you will be confronted with the argument that if we are just like them, then why do we want “special” rights–like ENDA; ending DADT; ending the DOMA; the Matthew Shepard act; etc.
Feel free to spend your life believing that all you are is what you do. I will be happy to continue fighting on your behalf to help you keep the freedom to do just that, Rob. Your welcome
Mr. Enemabag Jones
^^^^Goddamn! Spelling mistake galore.^^^^
I apologize to all readers for my butchering of the English language.
Mr. Enemabag Jones
Where do bisexual people fit into your worldview?
Now as a separate debate; since you seem to have a pet cause, Rob, where do transgenders, drag queens, gender fuck queers, and asexual queers fit into your world view?
Rob W.
There’s no gun to my head forcing me to be a certain way, you know, except when Mr. Brannan wants to be himself you attack him as a self-hating homo and debase him and marginalize him. Jay doesn’t want to switch any paradigms for another, the quote says nothing like that… god you know what, fuck it. You make so many gross assumptions, it’s not even worth the time.
Mr. Enemabag Jones
except when Mr. Brannan wants to be himself you attack him as a self-hating homo and debase him and marginalize him.
Uh…Show me where I called him a self-hating homo. Show me where I made any debasing comments about him. And how am I marginalizing him, when he has a national media source to pontificate, while I’m posting comments on a blog?
If anything, Mr. Brannan is marginalizing me, simply because I enjoy reading queer media sources. His assumption is that any queer who reads gay media is an automaton incapable of independent thought; or that we never read anything with a critical eye and accept everything presented to us as gospel. Queers aren’t stupid, but Mr. Brannan seems to think we are.
Jay
Jay! You’re on a first name basis with the man, eh? Well la di da.
You make so many gross assumptions, it’s not even worth the time.
You replied to me, Rob, not the other way around. I was just being courteous and replying to your belligerent comment
Forrest
“Gay Culture” only exists in the reflection of the oppression we are fighting against. Obviously, in this era we are still engaged in fierce political struggle. But we the younger gays do enjoy much greater freedom because of the life threatening work of those before us and we need to remember and appreciate it.
Older gays were confronted with outright violence if they left the closet. And then they were devastated by massive deaths caused by the early ignorance about AIDS. To them being gay is a visceral part of who they are. White gay men felt less constricted by religious pressure and came out, much more than their black counterparts. Setting up the idea of gay=white male.
In today’s media culture BRAVO’s image of a rich buff fashionable white male as the gay gold standard illustrates what much of the mainstream thinks we all are.
Our history shows that we are more than parties and fashion sprees, but that does not sell on TV.
Attmay
Enemabag, in comment #3 you said:
“For people like Mr. Brannan I would suggest finding a woman with a penchant for strap-ons and he will no longer have to deal with all us uppity, suffocating homos and he can spend the rest of his life “passing” while with his straight friends.”
You and yours are the real assimilationists. You expect gays to assimilate into the preconceived notions of gay “culture” regardless of their individual wants or needs.
Jay Brannan hit the nail on the head. Hard. When I came out 11 years ago I looked at gay culture and saw a cesspool of lousy synthesized dance “music”, tacky parades that should be marches for our rights instead, an insistence on ideological conformity even in non-gay issues, a dating scene that is a glorified meat market, and shitty TV shows that reinforce this stereotype. It didn’t represent me, and it didn’t represent what I wanted or needed as an individual who is gay. I came to violently reject it and I still do. I’m not trapped. I’m completely free from the agendas and stereotypes reinforced by the gay media circles which are dying not only because of the overall slump in print media, but because it is becoming increasingly irrelevant to a new generation of gays. If I like something that is stereotypically assumed to be “something gays like”, like a particular media, specific films, TV shows, or musicians, it’s not because I’m gay, but because I like that thing and probably would continue to if I wasn’t gay.
Some of us don’t just want to “sleep with men”. Some of us want to see them again after we wake up. Some of us would rather be husbands than tricks. Some of us are incredulous at those who choose to forgo safe sex when they’re not in a monogamous relationship with someone of the same HIV serostatus. Are we to be marginalized as traitors because we value stability over grossing out the “straights”? And keep in mind they had a sexual revolution of their own as well. Even 20 years ago they never would have sold matching pimp and ho Halloween costumes for kids. I’m sure their threshold for morality is pretty low.
We are not at war with the idea of home and family. We are fighting for freedom from the oppression of government and from the impediments that it set up to forming relationships and joining them in the bonds of matrimony. And I’ll be goddamned if I’m going to go from that oppression to an equally oppressive and spiritually empty subculture.
My sexual orientation is not my uniform.
extrabatteries
i completely agree with this statement regarding contemporary gay media. its a tree with relatively few branches and caters to a very very specific audience.
however, jay brannan? are you kidding me? he is the embodiment of all the stereotypes.
Mr. Enemabag Jones
My sexual orientation is not my uniform.
But oddly enough, you’re still militant.
It’s obvious in your rant what you’re fighting against; so I ask–what are you fighting for? It’s apparent whom you’re fighting with. So who are you allying yourself with?