Mike Huckabee Says It’s Not Civil Rights Until ‘Skull’s Cracked’

Just days after a 22 year-old Syracuse woman was murdered because she was gay, former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee asserted on The View today that gay civil rights should not be taken seriously because “[b]lacks were stoned, hung, and dragged for their constitutional right to ’sit at the table.’ Whites — gay or not — already had a seat at that table.”

Where to begin? A police report out today says 22 year-old Moses “Teish” Cannon was shot outside a party in Syracuse, NY last Friday because she was a lesbian.

Last week in Memphis, Duanna Johnson, a transexual was murdered execution-style. 15 year-old Lawrence King was murdered earlier this year for being gay. 16.6% of all hate crimes are directed at LGBT Americans. 4 out of 10 gay men are the victims of homophobia-related violence, as is 1 in 8 lesbians and bisexuals.

If Huckabee thinks it’s not a civil rights movement until somebody’s “skull’s cracked”, if violence directed on a people is the most important metric to him, then he owed the gay community an immediate apology– not just for being willfully ignorant of the ongoing violence against LGBT Americans, but inviting further violence by recklessly implying that it’s only when people get physically attacked that their views should be taken seriously.

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  • BlkMagickWomyn

    Wow…so I guess being pistol-whipped, tortured, and tied to a fence doesn’t count, huh Huck?

  • fredo777

    We already knew he was a d-bag.

    He just wanted to confirm it.

  • michael

    pathatic …..& lets not forgot some of the african americans in cival rights issues were gay as well. our cause cross multi cultural boundries .

  • kelly

    What the hell is wrong with people?

  • Rev Justin D Spears

    Rev Huckabee should know the history of being gay from his training as a minister. Sure he may not be one now, but unless he wishes to argue a mental defect he still knows.

    Gays, or in Huckabee’s case “homosexuals,” have been “stoned, hung, burnt at the stake and dragged” throughout history so to argue that the discrimination does not exist, or never existed, is a shallow argument.

    Is Huckabee pandering to the very far right for 2012? Seems to be the case

  • shivadog

    “whites-gay or not-already had a seat at that table” Oh yea, because all gays are white.
    What a dick. I can’t believe this guy was taken seriously as a candidate for president. Also if 16.6% of hate crimes are directed at lgbt peoples, and we make up around 2% of the population we are 8 times more likely to be victims of violence then other minorities. Huckabee is either trying to decieve people about anti-gay violence or he is completly disconnected from reality.

  • itsal

    At what fucking table? The ones in the aids clinics? Homeless shelters? Drug rehab facilities? The table in the back of the fucking school cafeteria–as far away as possible from the tables of those who relentlessly bully and verbally/physically assault gay youth?

    Face it moral white-washers of America: The social issues & social costs of hate and discrimination (of any type) reach further than your greedy little church congregation could ever imagine.

    Something tells me that if the LGBT and the LGBT-friendly nation within this country were to ever be strong enough to rise against the mysoginistic, racist, and fascist “christian” bigotry in this country, then they too would be stoned, hanged, and dragged through the streets of their own cities and towns…not to mention all the countless times it has already happened!

    Mike Huckabee, eat my shit. While black people in this country are owed a debt that white people will never have balls enough to pay, gay, lesbian, bisexual, trisexual, transgendered, transexual, and just plain enlightened people are becoming more and more aware that they must also seek the same rights that are wasted on scum like you.

    But then again, it only makes sense that someone in your elitist, GOP, Holier-than-thou position would rip their fingernails out on the walls of their sinking ship.

  • Eugene

    Redefining an institution? So should we take away the vote from women? Traditionally, this “institution” allowed only men to vote.

    Is the man illiterate or does he simply choose not read history books or anything beyond fairy tales?

  • BlkMagickWomyn

    Not to mention that marriage has already been redefined…interracial couples can marry.

  • dommyluc

    Hey, Mike, you fucking dickhead: how many times have you and your str8 white male brethren had your asses kicked because of who you love or have sex with? C’mon, Mike, give me a number. So since you haven’t been beaten, lynched, persecuted, taunted, discriminated against, fired from your job, prevented from obtaining housing, denied marriage and everything else that gays and other minorities have gone through at the hands of your str8 white pals, how come you are afforded the rights that I am denied? Fuck you, jagoff. And fuck that ugly dog-torturing son of yours, too.

  • Tim

    It’s easy to attack him for his willful ignorance of violence against the LGBT community.
    But his statement exposes the underlying assumption that a lot of opponents of gay rights have, that rights are something that must be “earned” not guaranteed by the Constitution and that I find very troubling.

  • ask ena

    The whole notion of “redefining” marriage is so fraught with hypocrisy and inaccuracy, it makes me absolutely crazy. The only purpose marriage ever “traditionally” held was to transfer property rights, imprison women at home, and reduce illegitimate heirs.

    Is the historical politicization of the Church truly lost on so many? What a pitiful and naive nation of idiots we are. I’m scared.

  • Eminent Victorian

    So while I was getting my ass kicked every day in public school in the 1980’s, along with other LGBT people my age, and our teachers and administrators did nothing, we already had seats at the table!? Damn!

  • Charles J. Mueller

    You have good reason to be scared, Ena.

    Especially, with so many idiots like Hickabee out there!

  • Kenster999

    “Traditional marriage” was built upon a tradition of misunderstanding homosexuality.

    I’ll believe that domestic partnerships are equal to marriage when straight people start getting “domestic partnered” rather than “married”.

  • TiminBoston

    Commenter #1 said it exactly right. The comment by Huckabee about skulls getting cracked immediately brought to my mind Matthew Sheppard. How many more have to die for it to become an issue of hate and civil rights?

    I do NOT heart Huckabee.

  • Sean

    Why the fuck is the View allowing the bullshit story of the lady with the cross getting beaten go unchallenged. The woman went into a crowd of gay people and, nobody beat her, they just took her cross. The View is such bullshit on this gay issue, and they let Hasselbeck spew this bullshit like crazy. I’m tired of it. Where’s Rosie when you need her?

  • ask ena


  • ted811

    There is no present law against being black. (any other color for that matter). Just because gay activity is presently against the law and mostly unprosecuted (most states) doesn’t make it wrong. The real problem is the laws and how they came to be… the stupid bible and it’s followers. Just because IT and THEY say gay is “unnatural”, “sinful”, “reprehensible”, doesn’t make it so. If we are to change the law about being gay, we must do away with the outdated bible–it has no relevance for the modern man and society. Most of our laws are based on this rediculous book. It even says that a married man or woman is sinning if they cheat on each other. What’s wrong for the bible and it’s shallow followers is not wrong for me.

  • Sean

    Also, can someone tell Huckabee that John Lewis, the man who got his skull bashed in back in the 60s is a staunch supporter of gay rights and believes it is discrimination equivalent to discrimination against blacks? Not to mention MLK Jr. and his wife as other black civil rights heroes who supported gay rights. Of course folks like Huckabee choose to ignore these facts.

  • andy_d

    @ted811: Gay “activity” between consenting adults in private is no longer “against the law.” The United States Supreme Court took care of that.

    How soon they forget – or never bother to keep current.

  • Trig Palin

    Hucksterbee is a fool

  • jack

    check again, smart mouth, while unenforceable, laws against sodomy are still on the books in several states, so it IS still against the law.

  • lj

    I believe “Teish” is transgendered and not a lesbian. Her given first name is Moses and from all of the other accounts I’ve read, she was born a male.

    I think a lot about how numerous gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgendered humans that have had their lives taken for simply being themselves. I also think that if my community (the GLBT community) makes an effort to learn from my other community (African-Americans) how to organize themselves for action – we GLBTers will end up in a much better place.

    If we are going to compare LGBT struggles to that of the American Civil Rights movement (and I believe sincerely that there is a comparison), then maybe we should learn from what they did and apply those principles to our cause. I think in the end what made the American Civil Rights movement work for African-Americans was the fact that the folks who weren’t African-American eventually realized we were humans too. The problem with most of these folks who don’t want us to have the same rights view us as less than human.

    But I also want to add that African-Americans put themselves on public display to be hosed, attacked by dogs and thrown in jail to fight for my right to live as I do today as an African-American man. We should ask ourselves just how far are we willing to go to make sure that we are afforded the same rights that heterosexuals have. I think that’s something we have to look at if we want to launch the same type of campaign that took place in the 60s

    For what it’s worth, I think this past Saturday was a good start!

  • Geoffrey

    How on earth could any public official actually say something like that? It’s absolutely unbelievable…..

    I think #25 has a valid point in asking how far are we willing to go? It seems that aside from politically active gays, many of us tend to be apathetic and that doesn’t help our cause at all.

    & #3 dvlaries, THANK YOU for that link….I’m sure he doesn’t want to talk about that little piece of family history.

  • Marc

    What a fucking douche!

  • marco channing

    I dare Huckabee to say that directly to Dennis and Judy Shepard’s face. In fact, I challenge The View to have all three on as guests at the same time.

  • Adam P.

    Huckabee is a jackass. That is certain.
    My question though, is what civil rights are being denied to LGBT people that were similarly denied to blacks or other oppressed minority groups?

  • Zoe Brain

    Kellie Telesford
    Location: Thornton Heath, UK
    Cause of Death: Strangled
    Date of Death: November 21, 2007
    Kellie was strangled to death with a scarf, by 18 year old Shanniel Hyatt, who then covered the body of 39-year-old Kellie Telesford with a white blanket – with the brown furry scarf used to choke her still bound tightly round her neck. Hyatt said he killer her after discovering she had a penis.

    Brian McGlothin (Liked to dress in Women’s clothes
    Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
    Cause of Death: Shot in the head with an automatic rifle by Antonio Williams who is serving a six year sentence. Brian was 25 years old.
    Date of Death: December 23, 2007

    Gabriela Alejandra Albornoz
    Location: Santiago, Chile
    Cause of Death: Attacked and stabbed
    Date of Death: December 28, 2007

    Patrick Murphy (Found Dressed in Women’s clothes)
    Location: Albuquerque, NM
    Cause of Death: Shot Several times in the head
    Date of Death: January 8, 2008
    Patrick was 39 years old.

    Stacy Brown
    Location: Baltimore, MD
    Cause of Death: Shot in the head
    Date of Death: January 8, 2008
    Stacy was 30 years old.

    Adolphus Simmons
    Location: Charleston, SC
    Cause of Death: Shot to Death (Aldophus was 18 yrs. old)
    Date of Death: January 21, 2008

    Fedra (a known transvestite)
    Location: Kota Kinabalu, Malaysia
    Cause of Death: Was found lying face up in a pool of blood,
    cause of death was not reported.
    Date of Death: January 22, 2008

    Ashley Sweeney
    Location: Detroit, Michigan
    Cause of Death: Shot in the head
    Date of Death: February 4, 2008
    The age of Ashley Sweeney is unknown, she was only described as a young transgender woman in a press release.

    Sanesha (Talib) Stewart
    Location: Bronx, NY
    Cause of Death: Stabbed to Death
    Date of Death: February 10, 2008
    Sanesha was 25 years old.

    Lawrence King
    Location: Oxnard, California
    Cause of Death: Shot to death by a classmate because he liked to wear
    women’s clothes. (Lawrence King was 15 years old).
    Date of Death: February 12, 2008

    Simmie Williams Jr.
    Location: Fort Lauderdale, Florida
    Cause of Death: Shot to death, Simmie was found wearing women’s clothing. (Simmie was 17 years old)
    Date of Death: February 22, 2008

    Luna (no last name reported)
    Location: Lisbon, Portugal
    Cause of Death: Brutally beaten to death and tossed into a dumpster.
    Date of Death: March 15, 2008

    Lloyd Nixon
    Location: West Palm Beach, Florida
    Cause of Death:Repeatedly beat in the head with a brick.
    Date of Death: April 16, 2008
    Lloyd was 45 years old.

    Felicia Melton-Smyth
    Location: Puerto Vallarta, Mexico
    Cause of Death: brutally stabbed to death by Francisco Javier Hollos, who said he killed her because she would not pay for sex. Felicia was an HIV activist on vacation from Wisconsin.
    Date of Death: May 26, 2008

    Silvana Berisha
    Location: Hamburg, Germany
    Cause of Death: Stabbed to Death
    Date of Death: June 24, 2008

    Ebony (Rodney) Whitaker
    Location: Memphis, Tennessee
    Cause of Death:Shot (Ebony was 20 yrs. old)
    Date of Death:July 1, 2008

    Rosa Pazos
    Location: Sevilla, Spain
    Cause of Death: Was found in her apartment, she had been stabbed in the throat.
    Date of Death: July 11, 2008

    Juan Carlos Aucalle Coronel
    Location: Lombardi, Italy
    Cause of Death severely beaten causing fractures to the head and face before being run over by a car.
    Date of Death July 14, 2008
    Juan Carlos was 35 years old.

    Angie Zapata
    Location: Greeley, Colorado
    Cause of Death: She was found in her home with two severe fractures in her skull.
    Angie was murdered by 31 year old, Alan Ray Andrade. Angie was 18 years old.
    Date of Death: July 17, 2008

    Jaylynn L. Namauu
    Location: Makiki Honolulu, Hawaii
    Cause of Death: Stabbed to Death
    Date of Death: July 17, 2008
    Jaylynn was 35 years old.

    Samantha Rangel Brandau
    Location: Milan, Italy
    Cause of Death: beaten, gang raped and stabbed numerous times before being left for dead.
    Date of Death: July 29, 2008
    Samantha was 30 years old.

    Nakhia (Nikki) Williams
    Location: Louisville, Kentucky
    Cause of Death: Found near the dumpster next to her home, she had been shot.
    Date of Death: August 20, 2008
    Nikki was 29 years old..

    Ruby Molina
    Location: Sacramento, California

    Cause of Death: Drowned
    Date of Death: September 21, 2008
    Ruby’s naked body was found floating in the American river.
    She was 22 years old.

    Aimee Wilcoxson
    Location: Aurora, Colorado
    Cause of Death: undetermined (Police have yet to reveal cause)
    Date of Death: November 3, 2008
    Aimee was found dead in her bed. She was 34 years old.

    Duanna Johnson
    Location: Memphis, Tennessee
    Cause of Death: Shot
    Date of Death: November 9, 2008
    Duanna was found dead in the middle of the street. She was 42 years old.

    Dilek Ince
    Location: Ankara, Turkey
    Cause of Death:Shot in the back of the head
    Date of Death: November 11, 2008

    Teish (Moses) Cannon
    Location: Syracuse, New York
    Cause of Death: Shot
    Date of Death: November 14, 2008
    Teish was 22 years old.

    Cause of Death:executed for being transgender
    Date of Death:2008, Month is Unknown
    There were 2 other Iraqi, transgender women who were executed at the same time as Ali.

    That’s just a partial list of the Transgendered killed (not merely assaulted) this year. The list of Gays is almost as long.

  • kendrah

    aw mike muckabee, why do you have to break my heart? You’re so adorable and funny but then you word vomit stuff like this… tsk tsk.

    I think mr. and mrs. shepard would have a thing or two to say in response to this, as well as the millions of other americans (including myself) who have been the victims of violence against homosexuals.

    He definitely does owe the gay community some apologies. Women’s suffrage was also a civil rights movement with significantly less hate-crime coverage, but was still a valid movement.

    Gay marriage has been legal in Massachusetts for 5 years. I don’t remember it having any effect whatsoever on anyone else’s marriage, do you? Can people just STFU already and go back to worrying about important things like sending our teenagers to die in Iraq for absolutely no reason?

  • Basildon

    Forgetting, of course, all of the homosexuals in the US who were punished simply for being gay. Before the 1960s, homosexuality was both illegal and classed as a mental illness. How many people were locked up in a prison or in an asylum? How many of those were subjected to electro-shock treatment, at once disabling and providing little opportunity to ever return to a normal life?

  • homer

    I wish Huckebee would provide an exact count of how many homosexuals have to be killed or injured before we are eligible for civil rights. A big electronic billboard could count these numbers down in the Castro. Imagine the huge party when the last person gets murdered and suddenly we get equal rights! Maybe Huckabee will pop a champagne bottle when that happens! What an idiot.

  • Joel

    I someone goes into a black neighborhood driving a car in a Klan outfit, then I’m sure that no one would be surprised if he or she was drug from their car and beaten or killed for just acting a certain way in front of people who disapprove of that behavior. In fact, many people on this site would probably champion such a courageous act on the part of an oppressed minority, and say that the individual deserved the beating.

    Like it or not, there are people who take offense to the LGBT lifestyle, and react violently to those who choose to live such a lifestyle.

    It sucks that people hate, but there’s nothing special about gay people that makes them immune to the hatred that exists in this world.

    Please try to get over yourselves.

  • Joel

    Sorry to play ‘devil’s advocate’…

    I kind of regretted that last post a second or two after I sent it. I’m just weary of the debate.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    Are you drunk or on drugs, Joel? Spoken just like a closeted, Log-Cabin Republican and a homophobe. What other noble causes, besides hatred, do you stand up for and support?

    How can you possibly equate being gay with being a member of the Kly Klux Klan? That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Well, one of them anyway….

    The Klu Klux Klan was and is about being against people having civil-rights. Gays are not against anyone’s rights. They are simply trying to attain them. Obviously, dumb fucks like you do not feel we are worthy of them.

    Devil’s advocate, my ass. You give yourself entirely too much credit. You are the GLBT community’s worst nightmare. With “friends” like you, we sure as hell, don’t need enemies.

    Either stay in the closet so we do not have to see or hear from you or get over YOURSELF!

    PS: And take your “Those who choose to live such a lifestyle” bullshit with you. We don’t need to hear your unfounded and medically/scientifically disproved urban myths and legends, you ignoramus.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    Joel wrote: >I kind of regretted that last post a second or two after I sent it.

    As well you should.

    Now, print a retraction of your comments, go make a Novena, put your hair shirt on and flagellate yourself on each of the nine days and then make a whopping contribution to your Catholic/Mormon/whatever Church and perhaps God will forgive you?

    We’ll reserve our forgiveness pending the retraction of your statements! :-)

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @Raven. Sad to say, it will never be “real” for idiots like Fuckabee.

    People like him do not live in the real world. The live in the lala land of sky daddies, sky pixies and angel dust and are totally out of touch with reality.

    Do people like this care that people are being murdered? Of course not. They are the ones who are sitting around waiting for the “Rapture” which is God’s extermination of all people who do not believe as he does. Nice, loving folks, eh?

    Given that sick mentality, just how much concern, could such believers possibly have for the life of a few faggots (his assessment of gays, not mine).

  • Joel

    I’m sorry everyone…

    I’m having a bad day, and I shouldn’t have made those comments.

  • lober

    Moses Cannon was not a lesbian. He was a gay man.

  • ted811

    Mr Mueller,
    You give all gays and human beings alike confirmation of their misconceptions with your foul blabber. Joel is much more the compassionate human and you -the axe man with wretched consience –insist on promoting your self righteousness. Just as not all whites want anything to do with the KKK, not all gays want you to speak for them.

  • Jim Gardner

    The VAST difference between your headline and Reddit.com link description and what he actually said is almost embarrassing. You’d have to go a long way to find someone as much against this guy as me—anyone who knows my blog will tell you that—but you do the whole cause a great disservice by misrepresenting what people like him say, because they just throw it right back at you as the act of a “typical liberal”. They come out with enough shit as it is, without us misquoting them just to get a headline.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    The following is a letter of protest that I just mailed to Mike Huckabee. I took the liberty of copying and pasting several comments (without naming names, of course) including the opening commentary because they were so excellently stated and excelled anything I could have written myself. My thanks to those people whose comments I quoted.

    After making such a callous, cold-hearted statement on National TV, this man deserves to be called-out by as many of us as is possible. Don’t let people like him get away with this kind of vitriol. Speak your mind and let these homophobes know that we’re listening and that we do not like what we are hearing.

    If any of you would care to send your own letters of protest to Mike Huckabee, please feel free, in turn, to copy, quote, modify or use anything I have said in my letter to Mr. Huckabee.

    Mr. Mike Huckabee
    P.O. Box 2008
    North Little Rock, AR

    Dear Mr. Huckabee,

    Just days after a 22 year-old Syracuse woman was murdered because she was a lesbian, you asserted on The View recently that gay civil rights should not be taken seriously because “[b]lacks were stoned, hung, and dragged for their constitutional right to ’sit at the table.’ Whites — gay or not — already had a seat at that table.”

    I think Mr. and Mrs. Shepard would have a thing or two to say in response to this, as well as the millions of other Americans (including myself) who have been the victims of violence against Gays, Lesbians, Bi-sexuals and Transgender people

    Your stance for the rights of black people is most admirable and you are to be commended for that. However, you stance for denying the rights of GLBT people is not, at all, admirable. In fact, it is most deplorable and I believe that you owe the GLBT community, as well as the parents and loved ones of people who have been deprived of their lives simply because of who and what they were.

    Your obviously uninformed and dismissive comments serve only to marginalize our community and promote yet further heinous crimes against people who have done absolutely nothing to you, your family, friends or the American public at large except to exist as best they can in an atmosphere charged with fear, hostility, hatred, bigotry, discrimination and oppression.

    And please, Sir, spare us of the admonition about pushing an old lady. It pales by comparison to the atrocities committed against GLBT, by heterosexual people and homophobes worldwide on a non-ending, day-by-day basis.

    The following people might still be alive today, were it not for the hatred, bigotry and discrimination that GLBT people have had to endure for even longer than the black community did. In fact, some of the people in this list were, themselves, black.

    (See list of names very thoughtfully provided by Zoe Brain which I inserted into the body of my letter to Mr. Huckabee)

    That’s just a partial list of the Transgendered killed (not merely assaulted) this year. The list of Gays is almost as long.

    Forgetting, of course, all of the homosexuals in the US who were punished simply for being gay. Before the 1960s, homosexuality was both illegal and classed as a mental illness. How many people were locked up in a prison or in an asylum? How many of those were subjected to electro-shock treatment, at once disabling and providing little opportunity to ever return to a normal life?

    Perhaps, Mr. Huckabee, you could provide us with an exact figure of just how many Gay, Lesbian, Bi-Sexual and Transgendered people need to be injured, beaten up or killed before we are eligible for the same equality, justice and civil-rights the heterosexual and black community take for granted.


  • Charles J. Mueller

    @Joel. It’s cool, man. We all have days like that. And, I can certainly understand your feeling given the recent developments with four states passing marriage bans.

    Apology accepted. I respect a person who is man enough to say “I’m sorry”.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @Ted811. Who put sand in your Vaseline jar?

    Oh, and btw, I am not the “axe-man” here.

    Mike Huckabee is. Save your self-righteous indignation for him, not me.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @Ted81 again: Last I heard, Freedom of Speech is alive and well in America, at least for the moment and until the Religious Right votes that right away as well, as they seem so want to do.

    I was merely exercising my right to Freedom of Speech which is, of course, your inalienable right to do so as well, so it was with bemusement and curiosity that I read the comments you addressed at me.

    I do not presume to speak for anyone but myself as you wrongly asserted. The opinions I post are mine alone and just happen to coincide with a number of comments on this blog.

    By attacking me, it would appear that you fully back the comments made by the vulgar and despicable Mike Huckabee…and in so doing you succeed in making yourself look like as big an asshole as he is.

    Furthermore, I have absolutely no desire to speak up for anyone who is not man enough to speak up for himself when someone has stepped on their blue suede shoes, as Mr. Huckabee has just done.

    Either you are a self-despising, Log Cabin Republican who has absolutely no respect for himself whatsoever or you are a brainwashed Catholic/Mormon/Whatever who cannot think for himself and simply espouses whatever your Priest, Minister, Buy-bull BS artist, etc. tells you to think and say.

    Regardless of whatever your problem seems to be, I will be succinct in telling you that I am NOT your enemy.

    People like Mike Huckabee are, and if that does not bother you one itoa, then you deserve every piece of dung that people like him love to dump on people of you.

    Have a great day, dude….unless, of course, you have other plans?

  • Charles J. Mueller


    1. “Is your inalienable right”

    2. “dump on people like you.”

  • ted811

    Mike Huckabee is a typical middle aged white man who chooses to believe the bible and attempt to live his life by it. He, and so many like him, don’t seem to realize that alot of people don’t believe the bible. The law (largley based on that bible with it’s outdated morals) protects him and his “rights”. The bible and this country do not believe gays behavior is moral–based on that bible. Do away with the bible and the Huckabees go away. Atheists rule. And remember–this is the same Huckabee who played amature stand up comedian and made the stupidist comment ever at the NRA convention….the gun shot and Obama ducking. My dad said “a bulldog can whip a skunk but it ain’t worth the stink—As long as the bible is around there will be those who believe it’s condemnation of homosexual behavior. And as a result, co-habitation with some insurance ain’t a bad thing.

  • Danny

    Gays should have a different set of human rights to other people, did he pretty much just say that in the video? That gays should not get the same human rights?!?

  • Charles J. Mueller


    I cannot argue with the points you made about Fuckabee being a typical, middle-aged white man whoo chooses to believe in the bible and attempt life his life by it. You’re spot on. And, I very much liked your dad’s analogy about the bulldog and the skunk. Very astute country-style humor that I can relate to since I was raised on a farm in upstate New York.

    I realize that folks like these are not soon going to leave the scene and I fully support anyone’s right to believe in whatever they choose to believe in and worship. Who am I to tell anyone what they should believe or do with their lives?

    I would be contempt to just simply ignore them and get on with my life, as you suggest, if they did not believe that they have the God-given right to get in my face, into my bedroom and into my politics. And when that happens, as it just did in my home State of Florida, in Arizona, Arkansas and California, that gets my dander up and I become very vocal about people who want to fuck with my civil-rights…and rightfully so, I believe.

    I am as entitled to my beliefs as Fuckabee, but as a gay man of some 72 years of age, I cannot ever recall ever telling someone else what to believe in, how to live their life or what God they should worship, or not to worship if that be the case.

    That said, can you, in all good conscience tell me that I should simply pay these people no mind and go on about my business as if nothing ever happened?

    Sorry, but in this particular instance, I believe it is worth making a “big stink” and I will continue making a big stink even as they cart me off to the concentration camps with a Pink Triangle on my sleeve, if it ever comes to that, God forbid!

    If the gays and the Jews in Nazi Germany had but fought back, instead of just allowing themselves to be railroaded to the concentration camps, perhaps a whole lot more of them might still be among us today. 6 million captives seems to me to be a whole lot more people than the guards overseeing them.

    Yeah, I know, many might have been shot to death, you’re probably thinking, but to my way of thinking, I would rather go down fighting and protesting than being shoved naked and humiliated into a gas chamber and dying with a wimper.

    What purpose did that serve?

  • TheVoiceOfReason

    @Rev Justin D Spears: A lot of different races, ethnicities, etc have been persecuted you fucking idiot. What makes faggots special?

  • Reed McGowan

    It’s interesting to me that many of us, as gay citizens, react to violence & aggression with the same response, and expect that it is going to change anything. What is the solution? We must rise above the pettiness & hatred, and address these people on terms that exemplify TRUE spiritual integrity. We will never be victorious unless we overcome the bigotry with a new, bold approach. This must come from a perspective that preaches BACK at them with their own mantras…NOT the ones they use to distort & manipulate with fear, but the FORGOTTEN ones that elevate charity & love above everything else…name-calling is for adolescent mentalities. In this era of Obama, it is time for real CHANGE…and THAT must come from within.

    The sad thing is, we are allowing these denominations to have power over us by stealing faith from our grasp…when we dismiss God because of what THEY have done to us, we dismiss our own worth & potential….I have seen many gay friends destroy their lives because of religious persecution…and so what do you think the judgement will be for those religious zealots who pushed them over the edge as opposed to showing mercy, understanding and tolerance? I know many don’t like the use of the word “tolerance”, because they feel we should simply be ACCEPTED…however, if we look at ourselves, we are just as guilty of the same thing…. we DON’T have tolerance at all for these haters, and so we become the thing we hate….so if we are to learn anything from them, it is to “love the sinner (THEM), and not the sin (BIGOTRY)”….and to set an example by superseding the animosity. No one ever said that it was easy…and as a matter of fact, practicing faith is the hardest and most rewarding work one can do. Yes, this “era of change” should be a model of responsibility for us to confront these haters from a new perspective…as gay Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc….we should embrace the faith that is available to us and practice it as example to those who use it as ammunition instead of medicine. We can be empowered if we want to…and just imagine if gay couples, and individuals, could teach the pious hypocrites how to unconditionally love…wouldn’t THAT be a leap forward for us?

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @Reed McGowan:

    Spare me, please. Get your head out of the religious heavenly clouds and come back to the reality of earth.

    I have no doubt that you are sincere in your convictions and that you really believe that you can effectively change the hypocrisy, bigotry, hatred and ignorance of people who are hell bent on destroying gays, by treating them with love. What you are saying, in essence, is “Turn the other cheek”.

    Sorry, but I don’t buy into that rhetoric anymore. I once did, but based on my observations of the length to which these hate filled people will go to in order to strip us of our dignity and civil-rights, I have come to the realisation that turning the other cheek is for losers.

    Can you imagine, for instance, six-million Jews trying to win-over their captors and inquisitors by showing them love, compassion and understanding? Would it have worked, even if they could have swallowed all of their heartache and suffering, loss of human dignity, loss of homes, worldly possessions, separation from children and loved ones and the bitterness they were left with as they were systematically worked to death and exterminated like vermin in the Nazi concentration camps?

    Have you ever spent an evening perusing the Internet for the horrifying details of what went on during that ghastly time in history? It is impossible to read all of it without being reduced to a sobbing mess. It makes one ashamed of admitting to even being a member of the human race, if this is an example of what one human being can do to another…and all under the guise of “Gutt mit uns” (God With us).

    Better yet, try sitting through a showing of Shindler’s List and see how much love, compassion and understanding you can muster up for the Nazi’s who destroyed the lives of 6 million Jews and tens of thousands of Gays, Gypsies and other “undersirables” that had no place in Hitler’s perfect Aryan World. You’ll be head-on with devasting madness and need a week or more to gather your composure back sufficiently to function as a human being again.

    Disgusting doesn’t even begin to convey the true nature of such a horrendous display of mans inhumanity toward his fellow man. And all because of some German wall-paperer, who hated Jews and queers, was able to whip all the dormant, unexpressed feelings of hatred in the bosoms and hearts of millions of Germans who turned their heads away, pretending that, like Schultz of Hogan’s Heros, “I know nothink”.

    To ask for such Herculean, high moral road actions from the victims of the unspeakable crimes and atrocities that they suffered and endured, would have been totally unrealistic and grossly unfair. Unless one is the son of God aho sacrificed himself for the sins of humanity, I don’t think you are going to find many human being capable of that sort of love and self-sacrifice.

    Do you really think for one moment, that Hitler really gave a good shit about one, single soul that he tortured and murdered? Do you think that speaking softly and kindly to him and showing him love would have changed his demeanor even one iota?

    Monsters like him and the henchmen under his command, do not even comprehend the meaning of the word love, much less understand what compassion is. Both of these attribute are foreign to them, even despised.

    Sure, Hitler loved his dog, but did that tiny little flicker of humanity manifest itself in any appreciable manner at Auschwitz or Dachau? Get serious. There were gold filling to be mined and lampshades to be produced from the tanned skins of human beings.

    One doesn’t stop monsters and ogres with a pat on the head or by blowing kisses at them. And saying prayers and making Novenas in Churches falls exceedingly short of changing people with murder in their hearts.

    People like this only understand one thing…the application of brute force. Brute force is what it took to rout these maggots who preyed on the flesh of humanity and put an end to the misery and suffering that they inflicted on everything and everyone they touched.

    Teach them how to unconditionally love? Amelia Erhart will make an appearance before that ever happens.

    Had we not applied brute force during WWII, you and I might very well be speaking German, Japanese… or Germanese, a mixture of both.

  • Reed McGowan

    @Charles J. Mueller:

    I guess you are right. I take everything back. We should pursue with equal venom and destroy destroy destroy. Blood should run through the streets. Your way is much better.

    Of course, I am being sarcastic.

    Your brain is clouded with violence. And yes, “turning the other cheek”, is a better option (in my opinion). But I don’t expect you to understand my view, considering where you are looking from. I used to hold those stagnant, corrosive opinions as well….but it did me no good, and neither to anyone around me. What you are attempting to do is define my beliefs and understanding of God & faith according to your own perspective. You cannot expect to have respectful, balanced dialogue unless you approach it from a neutral, non-violent position. This does not mean giving up your convictions, but rather, it means coming together with others in the sound assurance of your own understanding, and giving others the respect & dignity they deserve as human beings. This is the only way to hope to have any sort of unity between parties of different ideology.

    An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

  • Reed McGowan

    @Charles J. Mueller:

    PS ~ My understanding of faith may not be the same as yours once was (the “former rhetoric” you spoke of). My head is not in any heavenly clouds, because the hell that I have experienced has shown me that peace can only be found within, not in some nebulous ethereal void. It is a different perspective altogether, and too long to go into on this forum. However, it recognizes all those atrocities you described, and does not dismiss or validate them, but rather it strives to show the very nature of evil, and point me in a better direction. Some people do not believe in a God, or evil… from my own observations, I would say that the contrasts exist in ways even more visceral than we can express.
    The sarcasm and mockery in my previous response to you exemplifies the very core of what I am trying to relay, with regards to malice. It does no good to fuel this incessant rage. All it does is create a cycle of endless destruction. The party that chooses to stop it and “turn the other cheek”, is in fact, NOT the loser. They have chosen to not participate in the violence. They have won. You may disagree, but where does that leave you? With a bitter heart, and an empty soul. My choice leaves me with peace. I would say that the presence of peace in the midst of chaos is argument enough that God is indeed alive…and heals where no one or nothing else can reach.

  • ted811

    Red and Charles mention God as if he is some buddy-buddy. The bible and the God of the bible are the reasons this wacky conversation is going on all over the world. If there were no bible (with it’s condemning words about the gay lifestyle) there would be no one believing those words. As a result, gays are free of persecution and judgementalism—heterosexual couples who are unfaithful to one another are free from societies rejection and exclusion. The gay community must make up it’s own god–put it into it’s own bible–make this lifestyle not only normal, but sought after by all free thinking people all over the world. The God of the bible is the great judge here—those who believe the words are merely going to follow suit. Brush away all the cobwebs (Jesus followers)you want but the spider (God/bible)is the real culprit.

  • Reed McGowan


    I understand what you are saying, but it is gross misinterpretation and distortion of the Bible and God as a whole which creates fear and intimidation. I am a Christian because I understand what the core of the message implicates, and how it SHOULD be applied to my life. How it is related to the history of the Bible and God is very relevant, but it must be studied and looked at as a whole, not picked apart and used in sound bytes for selfish purposes. In this YouTube generation, we have become accustomed to making assumptions based on fragmented information. It is not the Bible which is in distortion, but the misunderstanding by the masses (and even the church) which creates division & chaos. Unfortunately, not everyone can go to seminary to understand how it all ties together. But the basic principles of Christ are enough to suffice when it comes to covering the foundation we should all live by…the same basic creeds that are shared by Buddhists, Muslims, and all peoples of devout faith who yearn for a just society. It is a gross perversion of truth (by those who don’t understand it) which perpetuates hatred and confusion. Peace is at the core of the message, and it should be the impetus for all who desire change, whether they be straight or gay. A peaceful response requires accountability. A violent one does not. By your actions, you are known for who you are. If you choose not to believe in God, then that is your right…however, it is also your responsibility as an adult to treat others with differences of opinion with equal dignity and respect.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    Okay! Spot on. Three cheers for Ted811 who got it ever so right when he said…

    “The bible and the God of the bible are the reasons this wacky conversation is going on all over the world.”

    AMEN! I’m with you, dude. I have been making a case for atheism for quite some time now, despite all the “doubting Thomas'” who pound their fucking buy-bulls to shreds quoting the infamous lie that all the bad people in the world are Atheists, when there is no proof positive of that fact.

    In fact, one has only to look at the annals of history to ascertain where all the bad people and the concept of good and “evil” are coming from….from the very same people who waged all the religious wars…and all in the name of God.

    Sorry, buddy, but the ‘core” message of your bible is one of hatred and fucked-up values. It’s what we are trying to deal with in California, Florida, Arizona and Arkansas. The good, God-fearing, bible-readers who never miss an opportunity to quote hateful passages from it to justify their vilaneous, disgusting actions.

    I am sick and tired of hearing the same, tired and trite “good” quotes from the, while the violent and often terrifying passages are glossed over. I suggest that you, and others like you, sit down and really read the bible, from cover to cover, absorbing everything that it in, and then try to tell the rest of us that every word in it, without exception, is virtual truth direct from the mouth of God?

    Ah yes, I can hear it now….

    “Onward Chrisitian soldiers, marching as to war”

    Better yet, you can hear it (and sing along too if you like) at…


    Sings your hearts out, Louise. Do it until your fucking vocal cords shrivel up and we can’t hear the likes of you anymore.

    Reed, could you tell me that wonderful bedtime story about the little old man with a white beard sitting on a cloud in heaven, one more time please?

    It’s such a nice story and I do like it so.

    Oh, and btw, I just put a quarter under my pillow for the tooth-fairy.

    Nighty-nite, now.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @Reed McGowan:

    Oops, I missed the very last sentence of your sermon.

    “If you choose not to believe in God, then that is your right…however, it is also your responsibility as an adult to treat others with differences of opinion with equal dignity and respect.”

    Umm…could we play that back for the benefit of the good Christians and Mormons, notably, who just outspent the Equality folk, ACLU and HRC out of the water to pass their ever so twisted notion of “preserving American families” please?

    This too, was done in the name of God, another example of using God to hurt and persecute minorities who do not agree with their convictions. And now that we are protesting your spiteful actions, you do the “We’re being bashed by the queers” act.

    Spare me, puleeeeeaze.Where is the “dignity and “respect” that we are equally deserving of, or, is this just a one-way street? You do the slamming and we do the respecting? Sounds like a pretty shitty trade-off, if you ask me.

    If you like have the toe of a boot in your asshole each time someone chooses to kick you in the ass, all fine and dandy. But don’t you fucking DARE tell me that I need to bend over (turn the other cheek) to accept the toe of your boot. Oddly enough, the lyrics of the song that Anna sings to the King of Siam, “Let me tell you what I think of you” come to mind.

    “Tell us how low to bow, your Majesty. Give us a kick if you would, your Majesty. Oh, oh…that was good, your Majesty.

    Bottom line. Ya get what ya dish out. And often, it’s in spades.

  • Reed McGowan

    @Charles J. Mueller:


    You don’t know me, and yet you make presumptuous comments, not knowing that I have read the Bible, and other great books of faith…and have come to an understanding which does not lump me in with the band of terrorists you seem to equate with all who have ANY sort of faith. There is no unity in this world, because it is apparent that by the likes of you (which includes the religious zealots), that you demand a violent response. You have no interest in any conversation except self-interest. It is obvious in your reaction. You address me with condescension & infantile metaphors that only prove to me that you have no capacity to seek any knowledge or experience other than your own, which in your infinite wisdom, is apparently doing wonders for the world. I guess that makes you soooo much better than those who you try to condemn for their misguided discriminations. I applaud you. Take a bow now, and go back to the cloud you have made for yourself. I might have my own interpretations which you don’t understand or agree with, but it doesn’t mean I have to accept your patronage with a smile and a prayer. You are just as bad as the Pat Robertsons in this world who create havoc with your nasty, myopic view that adds nothing but noise to the landscape. Anyone that you disagree with seems to be a target for your foul demeanor, and I guess it only means you must really hate yourself to go to such lengths to try and pump yourself up. What a pathetic ego you must have. I hope you can sense my disapproval, and use it to fuel and feed your hatred. It will make you a much better devil (or asshole, if you prefer). Meanwhile, I’ll do my own thing and wish I had never met you…even if it has been online. From the sounds of it, you seem like a person that not many people would want to be around anyway. Why, I bet even plants die in your presence. Feed off of that, you louse. Go and make the world a wretched place with your contrary message of hope. Destroy destroy destroy, and then pat yourself on the back. Someone in hell will give you an award.

    Oh wait, that’s right there is no hell. My bad.
    Have a nice day. Or not. I really don’t care.

  • Rob Moore

    @TheVoiceOfReason: To quote your words, “you fucking idiot” what makes discrimination against us less wrong than discrimination against other minorities? That’s what your statement and question imply.

    The fact that other minorities were persecuted or still are is not directly relevant to this conversation. We are talking about gay people. When black people were struggling in the 60s to regain rights, their efforts were not because of or in spite of discrimination against Native Americans. Jews did not resist persecution or discrimination because of black Americans plight or because Gypsies and gay men were killed in the camps as well. They resisted discrimination because it affected them.

  • Rob Moore

    @Reed McGowan: The two of you seem to have quite the little flame war going, yet, I think you are on the same side as far as the anti-gay marriage amendment.

    I grew up in a religious household, read the Bible, went to church, and studied my catechism faithfully leading to my confirmation. I never felt belief and one day while standing in front of a large congregation as the lector at that mass and right in the middle of the Old Testament reading, a light flashed in my eyes and I realized that I believed not a word of it. I was reading a fable. The wine remained wine and the wafer remained just a tasteless cracker.

    I do not begrudge anyone who wants to believe as long as they don’t feel they have a duty to save my soul by badgering me. Many of my family and friends who are believers respect my position.

    Now, back to you and Mr. Mueller. How can we win if we eat our own? A proselytizing atheist is as annoying as a religious fanatic. Just as I don’t want some Christian here in the Bible Belt trying to shove religion down my throat, I do not try to force them to see reason. Both of you need to respect each other. Now go to your rooms and sit quietly until you undersand.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @Rob Moore: I am certain that you mean well and that you are just trying to put the fire out. It’s kind of you to be sure.

    That said, however, I had no argument with Reed McGowan until he began preaching to the choir with post number 54 awhile back, telling us what we all needed to do. In fact, I do not believe that I said a word to him prior to post No 54.

    And that’s the gist of my argument. I am sick and tired of being told what to do by people who think that theirs is the only right viewpoint and that everyone else’s thinking sucks. So typical of bible-reading people, especially Christians and Mormons.

    I don’t preach Atheism. In fact, I rarely bring up the topic since it is almost as inflamatory on these threads as talking about Christianity.

    And yes, I have self-interest and I certainly do not need to apologize for that either. Having my civil-rights taken away from me, is about as “self-interest” as it can get. Should I simply sit by and hope that some kind individual or God will give those rights back to me?

    As regards to both of us having to respect each other, I believe that respect needs to be earned. Respect is not right to which one is automatically entitled.

    The bible-thumpers who just took my rights away, have done nothing to earn my respect, therefore I shall continue to fight them until they learn to STFU and stop pushing their “agenda” on the gay community and telling us how to live our lives.

    I don’t give a good fuck what Christians, Mormons, Jews and Muslims do in their temples and homes, but when they join up with each other, as had just happened on November 4, and tell me what I can do in the privacy of my own home, then I think I have a right and a duty to speak up and protest.

    I’ve held my peace and shown my respect for 72 years. I cannot bring my partner of 6 years now to this country on account of these idiots. That pisses me regally.

    I am not holding my piece anymore! I am going to speak up, robustly, every time someone thinks that they have the right to mess not only with my head, but with my civil-liberties as well.

    Sorry, I will not go to my room. I will not STFU and I will not allow myself to be pushed around by anyone who thinks that he is better than me.

    And if they can’t deal with that, then tough titty!

  • Charles J. Mueller

    Oh, and one other point…I have seen the comment “eating our own” numerous times on these threads.

    Let me just say this about that.

    I am as gay as the next guy, and damned well proud of it. However, I see no reason why I should not disagree (and say so) with someone just because they are gay. There is no reason why I should agree with them when I don’t or buy into their bullshit if it doesn’t ring true.

    I don’t hesitate to disagree with homophobic straights or the religious right. Why should I hesitate to disagree with gays when I feel that they are not acting in the best interest of the gay community?

    Case in point: Log cabin gays that voted for McCain/Palin and Yes on Prop. 8. I should bite my tongue rather than speak up?

    And why is it that when Pope, the Bishops or the Mormon Church lie and say terrible things about gays, it’s ok and we gays are supposed to “respect” them.

    But when we speak up to defend ourselves, it’s called “Church-bashing’? Wouldn’t you call that a double standard?

    Other than that, Mr. Moore, how was your day? ;-)

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @Reed McGowan: You wrote “Feed off of that, you louse” and also made reference to me being a devil (or an asshole, if I prefer).

    Tsk. Tsk. A perfect example of do as I say, not as I do. You sermonize me about turning the other cheek and making an example of ourselves by showing love and understanding…and then resort to name calling when you can’t get me to see your point of view” So typical of you religious types.

    When intelligent dialogue breaks down and reason fails, then the mud-slinging begins. And please, don’t tell me that the bible is a source of reason. It’s not. It’s just inane rhetoric that you will never get me to believe.

    Other than disagreeing strongly with you about religion and honestly telling you so, I do not recall resorting to calling you any names.

    Be that as it may, I perceive from everything you have said thus far that you are a pacifist. That, of course, is your privilege. I will not try to convince you to be otherwise.

    I can only liken your pacifism with that of HRC, who tells the gay community to keep sending money, but to keep a low profile and not makes waves, lest we offend the straight people in Wash. DC or upset any apple carts.

    Obviously, they believe in running the show, from the top down and are not interested in hearing from the man in the street. From what we have seen since the election, it would appear that the man in the street is no longer interested in hearing from them.

    HRC seems to believe that catered, lavish dinners in Tuxedos and evening gowns, makes a much more positive statement for gays in general.

    The only problem is, fundraisers and catered dinners doesn’t get our civil-rights back.

    Oh well. They weren’t important anyway, were they?

  • Reed McGowan

    @Rob Moore:

    While I understand your aversion to religious dogma, you DO acknowledge the respect one must be given to achieve ANY kind of success in communication. I take issue with people who willingly attack me personally when I have merely expressed an opinion on a message board that might inspire or elicit healthy debate, not a chracter assassination. This toxic rhetoric is the same language that has failed for centuries between people who disagree. I don’t see myself as irrational or naive, because i have seen both sides of the theological fence, and I have my own way of seeing things which I am free to explore. Being thatt his is on a public message board, however, I guess I am fair game for any bitter cretin that wants everyone to follow the leader, but sees that a few might have a mind of their own.  I really don’t need to sulk in my room, because I understand already that it is THESE kinds of attacks from these kinds of people that paint us in such negative light. I know what I know, and I don’t apologize or need to defend it… and i certainly don’t need to bend to the will of modern day dictators. In my faith, I am trying to set an example by moving past the lines that divide us. Wasn’t that what this election was about? Change? It is impossible to do that, however, when someone you deal with is simply stuck in their own self-righteousness. In this case, the Mormons are in the same sinking boat as Mr. Mueller. Unwarranted attacks deserve to be responded with due retribution, however, regardless of what side of the fence you are on. It’s even more absurd, though, when one is attacking from the side of a fence in a field I am not even standing in! I differentiate myself from those who paint the world with such broad strokes of black and white. The nature of MY faith is not to dictate provocation or prejudice, but to try and bridge the gaps, and for one to assume that I am a carbon copy is sheer ignorance. Just because one does not UNDERSTAND my faith does not give them reason to attack… THAT would be like someone lynching me for being gay & married. In a field that is burning, the hypocrites on either side will have a difficult time staying alive when the fence is the only respite for both. I have many friends who are atheists who discuss these things intelligently and respectfully with me ON that fence. People who DON’T know how to do that are the ones ruining it for the rest of us. That is why the world is fucked. And although Christ said I must pray for my enemies.  it doesn’t mean I have to like them, or to put up with their shit.  So with that, I will go and take a dump, and think about Mr. Mueller & pray for him while I squeeze one out. He tries to turn the tables on me with this ridiculous “mud-slinging” reference when he says that I try to preach “do as I say and not as I do”. I think he confuses me with himself. In my initial posts, I wasn’t “preaching”, but actually trying to elaborate on how dialogue must be drawn between two parties who have such animosity, with patience and understanding. I attempted to illustrate this THROUGH MY OWN FAITH (which was NOT defined by Mr. Mueller respectfully or adequately) and I was attacked by his foul retribution. He only proves that no matter what anyone says, if one doesn’t “do as HE says”, then their solution is not acceptable. At least I know what my limits are, and I know when someone berates me after I’ve done nothing but offer a peaceful insight, then they don’t deserve my respect. He may see what he wants to see in my contribution to the forum, but until he inserted his nose into the dialogue with his brand of arrogance, I was merely expressing an opinion. From that opinion, he nurtured hatred. I guess that means “he wins”. Ha, what a joke. My atheists friends are never this ugly towards me. Forgive me Jesus, but Mr. Mueller really must be a fucking douchebag. He doesn’t believe in Jesus anyway, so what does he care? (Sorry, I forgot to turn my cheek).
    By the way, “turning the cheek” does not only inflict damage on the on the one being struck. The psychological destruction affects everyone involved. I can heal from that damage through my faith…and anyone who cannot understand that, has to question whether they even have a heart at all. Maybe it’s a fable, but where no forgiveness or mercy exists, I believe hell has already been created in those who relish in such hatred.

  • Reed McGowan

    @Charles J. Mueller:

    Responding with hatred is never for the betterment of anything. If my response was hateful, it did not come from the place of faith that I seek. What you have taught me today is that hatred is indeed bred. Thanks for setting that example so eloquently. No church could have done it quite as well.

  • Glen B

    I’m a straight, very happily married man. I could never be gay. And from my own experience and sexual preference, I conclude that, in my opinion, being gay is definitely not a choice. A straight person can’t become gay and a gay person can’t become straight. Clearly, there are some exceptions to those rules. With respect to gay rights, I commend all those who fight for them, actively or passively. You have made a lot of progress and you will continue to do so.

    Mr. Mueller pointed me to this site so that I could check out the discussion. Mr. Mueller is a very, very good friend of mine and an absolutely terrific person. You ain’t gonna find a better person than Mr. Mueller. Our relationship is: one absolutely straight guy and one absolutely gay guy being the very best of friends. He argues in favor of an active approach to obtain equal rights, and he gives excellent examples where passivity did not work.

    All of the comments here are in response to Huckabee’s views. I don’t need religion or God to help me get through life, but I don’t disparage anyone who believes. I make an exception for my tolerance of other views in Huckabee’s case. He is an idiot, but I respect his right to be one.

    I’m not going to preach to all the posters and tell you to get along. You can disagree and attack each other, but you might make more progress if you attack discrimination, either actively or more passively. I will tell you that I’m delighted that you are making progress and that I hope that you keep up the effort, each in his own way. I find arguments against gay rights to be ridiculous. Keep up the good work.

  • Reed McGowan

    @Glen B:

    Thank you for that….this is the kind of balanced response I would expect from a forum like this, and is relevant to the point I have been trying to make. Should I have initially responded to Mr. Mueller’s condescension with hatred…or with love? Whether one be atheist or religious, gay or straight, it is the spirit of divisiveness which tears us apart. There is always a better choice to be made.

    With regards to my faith, it is a continuing & lifelong lesson. It teaches me to forgive him for his hatred and move on. Can he do the same?

    Say what you will, but the truth lies in the actions of the perpetrators. I’m certainly not better than anyone else, but I do have better things to do than deal with someone else’s petty attacks.

    Happy Thanksgiving…for those who believe in giving thanks.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @Kevin: Who said, “I know what I know.”

    Well, I certainly can’t argue with that logic, can I now? Godwin’s law has just been invoked.

    As to your claims of hatred on my behalf, I hate no one. I leave that to the Fundies, the Religious Rabble Rousers and the Mormons. They have had much more practice at it and do it so much better than I ever could. Oh my. Silly me. I guess I was being hateful by even say that, wasn’t I?

    Enjoy your “dump” while you pray for me. I truly hope it will leave you feeling somewhat better.

    If it’s all the same to you, I’ll just “brush” that comment off.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    In addition to being called a “louse”, a “devil” and an “asshole”, I am now charged with being a hateful cretin, simply for defending my beliefs as a gay man and objecting to the comments of an idiot that somehow or other, managed to get elected as the former Arkansas Governor. That, in itself, does not say much for the mentality of the people who voted for him.

    Oops…another hateful comment just slipped from between. I really must try to be more careful about that in the future.

    The last time I heard, America was still a Democracy and that entitles me to the freedom of speech that Kevin seems unwilling to grant to me, while demanding that I respect his opinions and religious beliefs.

    I do not deny his his basic right to state his feeling, thoughts and convictions on a public site. In fact, I fiercely defend his right to do so.

    What is readily apparent to me and which I find quite interesting, if not downright puzzling, is the fact that the real haters, and that includes the likes of Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Fred Phelps, the Pope and people like Mr. Fuckabee, who are, IMHO, the first to accuse the very people they openly display their vitriol and hatred for, of being hateful. They toss the verbal Molotov cocktails first, and then get all self-righteous and upset when we pick them up and toss them back from whence they came.

    At the very least, it is deceitful and dishonest. At the very worst, it is downright devious and disgusting. They preach living by bible and the Ten Commandments, yet have absolutely no problem with breaking the ninth commandment, time and time again.

    “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.”

    Given the hypocrisy, unjustified accusations and outright lies that are continually spouted by people like this, there must be some ambiguity as to the full meaning of this simply stated commandment.

    For purposes of clarification, for those who do not understand simple English, it means, “You shall not lie”. Furthermore, it should be noted that most religions deem it a sin to lie.

    Ummm…would someone like to explain to me how it ok to overlook one sin, namely lying, while pointing the finger of guilt at me for simply wishing to share my love with the person of my choosing and labeling that as a sin? What is the fine distinction here that I obviously fail to note and understand? Is the religious right trying to tell us that it is ok to pick and choose which of the ten commandments they will obey, just as they do with their bible?

    And speaking of bibles, please, do not drag out the tired Leviticus argument again. Give me a, valid, logical and well thought-out reason that I can sink my teeth into besides the old “God hates queers” argument, why I should NOT be entitled to my rights as a taxpaying, law-abiding American Citizen. Surely, these people must have something in their arsenal of weaponry against queers that super cedes that threadbare argument?

    In conclusion, I am NOT the cretin here, as I have been unjustly accused of being by Kevin. “Shooting the messenger as the bearer of bad news” is not the route to go. The real cretins are the likes of people I nailed in the foregoing.

    As my very very good friend, Glen, said so well, we would most likely, make more progress by attacking discrimination rather than each other.

    That said, Kevin can go to his church, and I will go to mine.


  • Charles J. Mueller

    Oops…my Post No. 72 and the last sentence on my Post No. 73 was erroneously directed at Kevin instead of Rob Moore.

    ‘Nuther thread. ‘nuther dialogue. lol

    Sorry ’bout that.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @AReed McGowan:

    “The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
    George Bernard Shaw (1856 – 1950) “

  • Glen B

    @Reed McGowan:

    Please allow me to stay off topic a bit here to a tangent that has been discussed.

    In my prior post, I mentioned that I am not a believer, but I do feel that I’m tolerant of other views – at least I try to be.

    My wife is an expert at putting herself in another person’s shoes. When you do that, it frequently makes you a better person.

    I’m not trying to point out that I’m a good person, I just want to show you how I felt on a specific occasion. Yesterday, we went to a friend’s home for dinner. Three couples, good friends. Our host is Catholic. He went to Catholic schools for many years. Both parents were born in Italy. When we sat down to eat, he said a blessing and he did a great job.

    How did I feel about that? Great.

  • ReedMcGowan

    @Charles J. Mueller:

    Please spare me the sermon of your own making. YOU trying to teach me a biblical lesson about bearing false witness, or Leviticus, or any other religious doctrine is a FARCE. Your archaic references and arguments are proof enough to me that you DON’T have a grasp on my understanding of all these principles. I never charged your decision to love another man as “sinful”, so I have no idea where you might be dragging that old tired argument from. I have moved past THAT debate with the church, because I have worked through it all with reason backed by scripture. My only regret is that I reacted to your intolerance with similar venom. I am fully aware of everything that I said when I responded to your comments, and it’s disgusting. This is why I abhor self-serving agendas, whether they be from the likes of you or the Vatican…they only breed contempt. I do not claim to be perfect, because then I wouldn’t need a Saviour. Perhaps that’s why you dont have one, I don’t really know.

    I’m not arguing with you anymore. You have already made up your mind that ANYONE who has faith is a piece of shit, and that you cannot have a decent conversation with me without resorting to condescension and insults. You are more interested in solidifying your imagined “rightness”, rather than coming to affable solutions. I have no time for it. It’s not that I think I am on any moral “high ground”, but that you are simply out to validate your own agenda. You can believe what you want to believe, but I will only use my faith to engage in profitable dialogue, not slander. I know what I believe; it has taken me a lifetime to come to sound conclusions, and I don’t need to justify it to you or anyone else who feels like they need to tear me apart because of some misdirected anger towards the church. That’s your own baggage, and I refuse to carry it. I have my own issues with the church, but I don’t let THEIR myopia direct my own vision. Go, make the world a better place, if you can.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @Reed McGowan: You wrote: “Go, make the world a better place, if you can.”

    I don’t believe that I have made it any worse with my presence.

    You also wrote: “I’m not arguing with you anymore.”

    Plop, plop. Fizz, fizz. What a relief it is!

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @Glen: Obviously, your mama brought you up to be a gentleman and she succeeded, quite well, I may add. ;-)

    My sister-in-law, Lorraine, has us all hold hands at the table when the the entire family gathers for a holiday dinner while she says a blessing. It makes me feel good too, despite the fact that I am also not a believer.

    I would never reject the well wishes of anyone’s faith. After all, they were offered out of love and to not accept them in that spirit and be appreciative of those well wishes, would make me a miscreant.

  • ReedMcGowan

    @Charles J. Mueller:

    Tell me about it! What a relief! No more baggage! By the way, since it is Thanksgiving, I want to thank you for your input, despite my initial reactions to your patronage and hostility. They have only served to reinforce my understanding of the heart of man, and has strengthened my belief in God to heal & guide the way I think and live my own life. If I have offended you, I am sorry. You have every right to be as bitter & resentful as you are.

    I’m turning the other cheek right now. Go ahead. Hit it.
    I know you want to.

    PS – No, I am NOT into S & M.

  • Charles J. Mueller


    I accept your apology and I extend mine to you in return. It was not my purpose to offend you either.

    I try to make it a policy, as I know my dear friend Glen does, to attack the idea and not the person. Sometimes, the line gets a little fuzzy and the temptation to overstep it presents itself.
    I guess we are all subject to the frailties of the human species no matter what our belief system.

    I have no desire whatsoever to hit your other cheek. That would accomplish nothing other than fueling the fire which we are both attempting to extinguish.

    Contrary to what you might believe about me, I am not a war hawk and would like to believe that somehow, we can all learn to get along on this planet and not blow ourselves to smithereens in a mad effort to prove our individual ideas and isms.If I did believe in a higher being, that is certainly something I would be praying for.

    Thank you for your best wishes for this Thanksgiving season. I have much to be thankful for.

    I extend mine in return to you and yours.

  • ReedMcGowan

    @Charles J. Mueller:

    And so the conversation comes full circle. Everyone bears “false witness”, so let’s not fool ourselves. I believe there are no good or bad people, only good or bad choices, and consequences that follow. The consequences which result in destructive conversation is the kind of interaction I am trying to avoid, the kind we should ALL avoid if we are to move forward. Your choice, as well as mine, was to respond with hatred. Whether one believes in God or not, self-serving attitudes & agendas only serve the self, not the greater good of all involved. There is no need to insult one’s beliefs in order to stand up for a common cause, particularly if one party is unaware of the common good towards unity (i.e. religious right). I don’t see my exchange with you as being devoid of fault, but that is MY personal battle to conquer corruption within myself. You can embrace the corrupt dialogue and feed off of it if you desire, that’s your prerogative. I am not being condescending when I say that. Sure, I can be immature at times just like eveyone else…I am still growing as a whole person, mentally, physically, spiritually… but my actions are of one who desires to converge with a diversity of minds who disagree, whether I like the interaction or not. It only stimulates the process and cleanses me more thoroughly to achieve unity. And I will beat that horse of inclusion into the ground until the day I die. My faith dictates that, and that’s ONE of the many ways it differentiates itself from the religiosity of others. I suppose the nasty traits one exhibits are most detested when recognized in others, huh? If the mantra of 2008 was “Change”, then MY belief is that the way to execute that is through community, accountability and mutual respect. THIS is what I try to illustrate in this fight for equality…and my snarkasm, I suppose, will always be my Achilles heel (or in my case, Achilles’ Hell).

    peace & blessings

  • chuck


    You wrote: I suppose the nasty traits one exhibits are most detested when recognized in others, huh?”

    If, indeed, we have a purpose in life, it would be to serve as a mirror for others to see what they dislike most in themselves. – Werner H. Erhard

  • Rob Moore

    @Charles J. Mueller: I think you are mistaken if you were directing post 72 and the last sentence of post 73. It was someone else’s post since I never say “I know what I know” nor would I ever be so crass as to make reference to my personal bathroom habits. I cannot pray for you since I don’t believe in a god or a higher intelligence controlling the universe. I don’t take offense, but thought I should correct your mistake.

  • Carolyn Wagner

    I am a native Arkansan and been an outspoken glbt rights activist in this state and nationally for 15 years. I am livid, Huckabuck is a liar and knows full well what happened to our son in Fayetteville, AR in 1996 (anti-gay) assault at the age of 16. My husband was shot at after filing suit against AR when huckabuck first action as governor was to ban lgbt people as foster parents AND hetero parents of lgbt. Then about 3 years ago, after our WIN against the state in supreme court, I was assaulted after the news broke and a bunch of goons broke my back in an assault. I had surgery and have limited use of my legs since then. Huckabuck knows all of this!!!! Scott co cops, AR state cops and FBI would not do an in depth investigation and this group has a website, couldn’t have been that hard to find the nuts. Was never shown photos and I firmly believe one of the hatemongers was a cop.

    So, I didn’t have my skull cracked but they cracked my son’s!!, they missed hitting my husband but busted our back sliding glass doors with the bullets. and my son’s assault not only made local and state news but national news. My son’s assault was during school with the school taking no action, we got OCR to finally investigate under a title lX complaint. had to go to DC to convince DOE/OCR that title lX does not exclude male students nor lgbt students from sexual harassment. They found the AR school district in violation (a first for lgbt students) of our son’s rights, including 14th amendment rights. Lambda legal came to our aide when we could’t even get a local lawyer to help. Huckabee knew all of this. He MUST be exposed as an outright liar and this is the first time I ever heard him to say such.

    I had to vent and how can one get info to the view so they will understand this “cutsie” is a bigot and lies, as one who was raised southern baptist and remains a Christian, I feel this man should be exposed. What an idiot and did anyone on the view contest his lies??

  • tdblog

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  • Andrew Triska

    @lober: I thought Cannon was an MTF transsexual (born Moses, identified as female, chose the name “Teish”). I could be wrong, but I distinctly remember reading off her name at a Day of Remembrance vigil.

  • Zoe Brain

    Yes, well, when it comes to “waving the bloody shirt” during fundraising, MtoF victims are deemed gay. When it comes to including them in legislation, then they’re “not really a part of the movement”. Nothing new, this happens all the time.

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