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Gay Men Should Probably Ignore Millionaire Matchmaker Patti Stanger’s Dating Tips

Our friends at Gawker caught last night’s season premiere of Bravo’s Watch What Happens Live, which is basically a half-hour commercial for Bravo shows hosted by Andy Cohen.  His guest was Patti Stanger, the ironically single 50-year-old yenta who stars in Millionaire Matchmaker. In answering viewers’ questions, Matt Cherette writes, Stanger “made dumb comments that reinforce stereotypes of gay men as effeminate, disease-carrying sluts who are incapable of monogamy.”

Aw, you say that like it’s a bad thing, Matt.

The problem started when “Dustin from Ohio” called and asked about long-distance relationships and monogamy for a gay men.

“In the gay world there’s always gonna be open… Go on Grindr you’ll have a great time,” Stanger declared before turning to Cohen and saying, “There is no curbing the gay man. Have you seen the Madison [Hillenbrand] episode [of Matchmaker]? I have tried to curb ‘you people’ and I’m throwing in the towel.”  Cohen responded, “I am a gay and am down for the monogamy.” Stanger cackled back, “When was the last time you had a boyfriend?”

Um, when was the last time you had a boyfriend, Patti?

Later in the broadcast, Stanger said if you learn to give a great blowjob “a man will love you forever.” Now that we can say is just patently untrue.

Image via Bravo

By:           Dan Avery
On:           Sep 26, 2011
Tagged: , , , , ,

  • 47 Comments
    • Michael
      Michael

      Ugh can’t stand women like this who continue to perpetuate myths about the gay community.

      Also what the hell is wrong with these women? AGE GRACEFULLY sweetie these women look like plastic barbie dolls with fish lips ugh.

      Oh and the I have tried to curb YOU people thing? I was taught to never hit a women but a bitchslap would surely be in order for a dumbass comment like that one.

      Sep 26, 2011 at 7:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jordan
      Jordan

      But why are people taking Patti Stanger seriously? Have you seen her show? Take several seats.

      Sep 26, 2011 at 7:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael
      Michael

      @Jordan:

      Whether someone has seen her show or not is irrelevant.We can’t continue to put vile women like this one up on pedestals. Calling us you people is the same thing racists do when it comes to people who are african american but instead of you people its the coloreds .Not to mention queeny at the end and the dismissive tone she used when she said that?

      It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that this women is not gay friendly just another one of those vile rude haughty women who thinks their proverbial shit does not stink.

      Shes the typical one who believes the stereotypes that all a gay mans good for is designing her outfits going shopping with her and complimenting her all the time.Trust me ive met those kinds.

      Sep 26, 2011 at 7:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JEFFUWS
      JEFFUWS

      Notice how there’s never any follow up or report on Patti’s “success rate”?

      Sep 26, 2011 at 7:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ewe
      ewe

      Fake Tan. Fake Tits. Fake Teeth. Hollow Brain. I won’t give what she says much credibility.

      Sep 26, 2011 at 7:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ewe
      ewe

      oh and bad hair and make up too. oy.

      Sep 26, 2011 at 7:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ewe
      ewe

      Maybe if we did not have medical privacy laws we would see what all these masturbating fools on television and radio do on their own time. Slice and cut. Etc.

      Sep 26, 2011 at 7:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ewe
      ewe

      She shook her headlights so often she unscrewed her mind. It probably fell out of her fake nose.

      Sep 26, 2011 at 7:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ewe
      ewe

      Then it slid off her fake lips and down her hairy chest to the dried up wrinkled cavern.

      Sep 26, 2011 at 7:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jakey
      Jakey

      Ugh. I hope she has gay friends who will call her ass out for this the next time they see her. But given all evidence of her personality that I’ve seen…she probably doesn’t.

      Sep 26, 2011 at 7:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • George412
      George412

      I don’t like this woman and have often wondered what her success rate is as a matchmaker, BUT as a man out for 20 years I have to say my experience unfortunately has left me thinking there is a lot of truth in what she says. As a single guy looking for love and not having luck and having many friends in “relationships” that are open I question if gay men can be committed to each other. Just the other day I went out on a Saturday night and I talked to two different guys and both are out at bars by themselves and yet they have “partners”. It’s the Fall and new TV shows are premiering. If I were in a relationship I would be at home with my bf and not hanging out at a bar looking for a guy.

      As for Andy Cohen, I don’t believe for a minute that he is looking for love and that he believes in monogomy.

      Sep 26, 2011 at 7:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Pedro
      Pedro

      Isn’t this what “it gets better” Dan the whore Savage is preaching? Didn’t all you whores jump on here a little while ago, proud to proclaim yourselves in open relationships. Patti speaks the truth! And nobody finds a queeny annoying bitch sexy! They are essentially the gay equivalent of bojangles, only good as amusement! Dance bitches,dance!

      Sep 26, 2011 at 7:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      I watched an episode and she set up two of the most incompatible gay men I’ve ever seen.

      Sep 26, 2011 at 8:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ChrisC
      ChrisC

      I think Lisa Lampanelli summed it up best when she refrenced Patti as the “Millionaire Matchmaker Cunt”.

      Sep 26, 2011 at 8:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tony
      Tony

      As a gay in an ll year, monogamous relationship I’ll say this: Isn’t this the type of bitch gay guys love? Watch any reality show or go to any club and you’ll see a horrible, obnoxious loudmouth bitch with a fag in tow. Stanger seems like the type of woman I see so many gays running around the city with. She believes she knows everything there is to know about the gay community because she’s been schooled by her whorish, lonely, bitchy gay friends. And I can’t believe gays are flattered when some bitch calls him her “gay” (and that includes Kathy Griffin). I find that so offensive. It’s like you’re not even a person..you are her accessory. I wish gays would find real female friends, not these wanna be hags that use you for their amusement. So gays can’t be mad at women like this, they helped create her.

      Sep 26, 2011 at 8:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nicholas
      Nicholas

      Watching this woman attempt to provide some form of plausible relationship advice is deeply depressing and embarrassing, although she placed the host on the spot, she not only disrespected us as a LGBTQ community she continues to remain in her obnoxiously blissful ignorance, I know she’s trying to become some-what of an “icon” or “favorable tv personality” but it’s only her head in the clouds and she needs to wake-up before she deludes herself into submission.

      Sure, men are sexual creatures but it doesn’t merit that gay men are promiscuous, it’s these misunderstandings that fuel the positions for the right-wing conservatist, shame on her.

      Sep 26, 2011 at 8:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ed
      Ed

      @George412: There’s actually a fundamental difference between a relationship and monogamy. The two are not the same thing. Each person’s individual values will determine if a relationship should also be monogamous. Just because a relationship is not monogamous doesn’t infer that there’s no commitment.
      The commitment is dependent upon other values of honesty and integrity (among other things). It sounds like these men in the bar are being quite up front if they quickly told you they had partners.
      Personally, I’ll take honesty over monogamy any day.

      Sep 26, 2011 at 8:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael
      Michael

      @Tony:

      The difference is Kathy genuinely loves people who are gay and she fights for us as well.

      Patti on the other hand is the kind that does not give a damn unless it benefits her and her ego.

      Sep 26, 2011 at 8:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dave
      Dave

      @Tony-I agree.

      @18-Kathy Griffin is only using gay men and GLBT people to further her career and she really doesn’t give a shit about us even if you want to pretend that she does. Sorry we’re not all her pet “gays”.

      Sep 26, 2011 at 8:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael
      Michael

      @Dave:

      Oh goody another catty gay who cant respect a difference of opinion.Ugh revolting. Do not EVER assume that I am anyones pet either .I am NO ONES PET you can believe what you want to believe unlike you I am not gonna be an ass to you just because you believe differently then I do about her.Lesson for people like you: learn to respect other peoples opinions and quit acting like a jerk just because you do not agree.Why is this concept so hard for people like you to comprehend? Ugh.

      Sep 26, 2011 at 9:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Martin81
      Martin81

      It’s not that gay people cannot be monogamous, it’s that we are not socialized to be like straight people are. As much as I think Patti is spewing the same tired stereotypes (“queeny” gays are somehow worse than a “straight-acting” or “masculine” gay? Please join us in the 21st century, Patti!), being sexually active with many different people seems to be perpetuated as the norm for gays. I think it stems from back in the day where we had to secretly go out to bars or wherever to meet others like us, and we couldn’t be open about who we are our who we love. We had sex, then went back into the closet until we had the chance to go out and look for the next fling. But now that being gay is becoming more and more accepted in society, and hopefully soon marriage will be available to us as well, and gay people can get the same social conditioning as straights, namely, find “the one,” fall in love, and get married.

      Sep 26, 2011 at 9:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • missanthrope
      missanthrope

      Where is Jason to slut-shame all gays and agree with a homophobe? He’s slow on the ball today.

      Sep 26, 2011 at 9:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ted B. (Charging Rhino)
      Ted B. (Charging Rhino)

      She may have “gay friends”, but she doesn’t understand gay men…and totally bungled her “selections”. Madison and the guys selected were doomed from the first. And the other guy, what can be said….

      Hope they both got refunds, or sued her for malpractice and/or fraud and misrepresentation.

      Sep 26, 2011 at 10:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ChrisC
      ChrisC

      @missanthrope: LOL.

      Sep 26, 2011 at 10:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jonathan
      Jonathan

      @George412: Well, its not an easy to find, love and real monogamy, that is, but I urge you not to give up hope! True love and monogamy do exist, but like all wonderful things in life, they are indeed rare.

      As gay men, we do face circumstances that tend to encourage multi-partner sexual lives rather than long-term monogamy as a result, I believe, of many factors both within the community itself and outside it.

      Nevertheless, there are those of us out there….its like searching for a needle in a gaystack! Having said as much, I’ll mention that my forever bf, my true, great & completely monogamous love of 14+ years, is having a drink at a local bar here in Chelsea with a friend of ours as I sit at home and read my blogs and its perfectly fine.

      Good luck! ;-)

      Sep 26, 2011 at 11:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • HAL
      HAL

      Eh, Patti hates everyone… so is it that much of a surprise that we’re not spared her borderline-menopausal rage?

      Sep 26, 2011 at 11:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • swimmerb - chicago
      swimmerb - chicago

      She also boasted the All Jewish Men Were Liars! Gays come in all flavors – maybe the gays she surrounds herself with fit her very narrow view. Its great that gay men don’t need to conform to her world-view – whatever it is….

      Sep 27, 2011 at 12:15 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      the woman is an idiot.

      as for monogamy: http://littlekiwilovesbauhaus.blogspot.com/2010/01/what-is-monogamy-all-about.html

      Sep 27, 2011 at 12:27 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      Agree she’s an idiot.

      But it is true that the gay community (the main stream part you see in the local magazines) does push the idea that multiple sex partners and no relationships is the preferred choice for gays.

      So, I can see why someone looking from the outside in would be confused. I mean- what other community puts porn stars on the pedestal with more legit entertainers such as actors?

      Sep 27, 2011 at 1:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      “. I mean- what other community puts porn stars on the pedestal with more legit entertainers such as actors?”

      There are numerous television shows that have made celebrities out of Straight Porn stars.
      Showing your tits, your pussy and your bleached anus got a bunch of blondes their own reality show and spin-offs.

      kendra whatsherface is famous for showing her twat and having sex with hugh hefner. so i think it’s pretty safe to say the straight community makes stars out of porn entertainers.

      HOOTERS, anyone? a restaurant where people are encouraged to ogle the breasts of the waitresses?

      yeah. STRAIGHT.

      and most of you are missing a reality – MEN are more prone to cheat. or , not cheat but have a higher sex drive and a less nesting-instinctual response to sex.
      it’s not a “GAY” thing, it’s a MALE thing. know what stops straight guys from getting laid as much as they’d like? A WOMAN.
      remove the woman, BOOM, you have our world.

      i don’t see how some couples choosing to have an openly-sexual arrangement affects any of you. we all relate to sex, sexuality, and the emotional components of both, in very different ways.

      Sep 27, 2011 at 1:12 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • cele
      cele

      This is hysterical! I don’t watch the show, and I’m an effeminate gay man. But you know, all it is is that she’s just really blunt with her truth! Masculine gay guys nowadays don’t like the more effeminate gay men. It’s just a fact, I see it more often than masculine gay males that are comfortable around more effeminate gay males. But when she says it, it’s wrong? Don’t think so!

      And she’s right about monogamy and gay men. Sure you can think of gay male couples that are monogamous, but you can think of a ton more other gay males that like to “have fun”. But the same goes for straight and bi as well. It simply depends on what stage a person is at.

      It’s funny that she can think like a modern day effeminate-hating gay male and a stereotypical straight male. She’s good at that!

      Sep 27, 2011 at 1:50 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @Little Kiwi: If you can list those shows, I would be happy to be proven wrong. The only one I can think of was one who appeared in the 90s on Melrose Place. I can’t think of a single recent example, and, I can’t think of one where it was considered something to be lived up to, rather than lived down.

      And no, showing clevage or showing one’s ass is not the same thing as fucking on screen. If it is, then you are doing sex wrong.

      I really not into the pop psychological stuff that’s also just gay cultural talking points about why gay men should have more sexual partners.

      To be frank, I don’t think all gay men are like that. I don’t even know what percentage are. I do know that like there is a heterosexual norm that’s pushed on gay people there is a “gay norm” pushed by other gays on gay people. This is not, by the way, unique to gay people. Blacks do the same. I am African-American, and I can tell you that one of the more annoying things is to constantly have to be told what “black is…” by people trying to tell me that if I don’t act like them that means I am “acting white.”

      I had a really good friend, also gay, but older, so when I came out, I felt i had to do x, y and z to be gay because that’s what I had seen and heard from all the out gay men that I had known at the time. He said 2 things to me- don’t get out of one closet to go into another (meaning be yourself whatever that means) and the only thing certain about being gay is “loving dick” and the rest is up to you as to what that means.

      I have returned to that rather simple bit of advice a lot over the years. Its liberated me from a lot of the gay orthodoxy memes that I am supposed to follow because I am gay.

      Sep 27, 2011 at 1:58 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @cele: I had a really strong exposure to this recently online when a character in a comic book that I may read- The Teen Titans- was announced to be an effeminate gay character in the series reboot. It was interesting to watch the number of gay men attack the character, having not read the series yet, because the writer stated he felt that effeminate gay characters are unrepresented. That the goal seems to be to say that the only way to be gay is be just like everyone else, and that this is not good as far as diverse images in comic books. I actual thought his point was a great one. But he was attacked anyone for promoting stereotypes although no one could have read the series yet. It was a real eye opener.

      Sep 27, 2011 at 2:05 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • matt
      matt

      @cele

      “This is hysterical! I don’t watch the show, and I’m an effeminate gay man. But you know, all it is is that she’s just really blunt with her truth! Masculine gay guys nowadays don’t like the more effeminate gay men. It’s just a fact, I see it more often than masculine gay males that are comfortable around more effeminate gay males. But when she says it, it’s wrong? Don’t think so!”

      I’m as masculine as they come and I love fems, I’ve never met a guy that I considered too queeny or fem, I think it’s hot!

      Sep 27, 2011 at 2:48 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chris
      Chris

      I think your view depends on where you hang out. At my work there is a gay guy and a lesbian who have both been in monogamous relationships for decades. But if you went to some gay bar in the city, the story would probably be different. Personally, I am for monogamy 100%. I am just not in a relationship right now.

      Sep 27, 2011 at 3:17 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CA
      CA

      OMG! OMG! I can’t stop saying it! OMG! I don’t even know if I feel offended, or mad, or….OMG! Unbelievable! I’m really shocked! What she said was SO untrue and REALLY offensive! I dislike that lady.

      Sep 27, 2011 at 4:54 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dave
      Dave

      @Cele I agree.

      Sep 27, 2011 at 7:11 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jason
      jason

      Patti Stanger is partly right. It is true that the male-male social scene is built on a sex act. However, it’s not so much a function of our orientation as it is of our gender. Men have a powerful sex drive. Put two men together and you’re doubling the power.

      In the male-female interaction scenario, the woman serves to curtail the libido of the male. Thus, the sexual power of the male-female social scene is reduced by the female. Her libido is based on pregnancy; it’s like an on-off switch that is biologically designed to switch off for 9 months at a time. She serves as the gate-keeper, keeping the male sex drive in check.

      All in all, Stanger makes some valid points but perhaps she should have phrased it a little better.

      Sep 27, 2011 at 8:53 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      Has anybody pointed out that this “Expert Matchmaker” is in her 50’s never been married and just got dumped from a long term engagement before they ever got married.

      THIS is who people are going to for matchmaking advice?

      What she does is set up rich men in Los Angeles with Wannabee actresses and models. She TRIED to go do her thing in NYC and bombed because she couldn’t function with actual people. She is a glorified pimp.

      Sep 27, 2011 at 9:08 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ousslander
      ousslander

      a lot of truth in what she was saying. next

      Sep 27, 2011 at 9:11 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mike in Asheville
      Mike in Asheville

      I am not sure what all the ado is about. I have only watched short clips of her show while channel surfing, but based on that, she insults EVERYONE. So I switch channels. If her insults were entertaining, I’d probably watch a little more; alas, she is so sophomoric it pains me. I don’t really believe that her opinions matter to anyone; and she can’t be influencing children as children are not watching her.

      On the brighter side, believe it or not, Patti has contributed to gay causes, No on 8, the NO H8 campaign, and, importantly, she includes gays and lesbians as part of her mate matching program. I’ll take that leaps and bounds over other dimwits like hypocrite Carrie Prejean any day.

      Sep 27, 2011 at 9:41 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • delurker
      delurker

      she’s a horrible person, but she’s not off the mark in her statements. she should not have said all gay men do not practice monogamy. it’s more like 95% don’t.

      Sep 27, 2011 at 10:33 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      @Interesting – The shows are called “The Girls Next Door” (about Hefner’s multiple blonde Playmate “girlfriends”) and “Kendra” about one specific playboy playmate, and there have been a few other spin-offs and specials.

      The Kardashians have their own television show for one reason only – Kim was in a hardcore sex-tape that was leaked to the public.

      those are mainstream TV programs watched by millions. about women who appeared in heterosexual pornography. nothing in our Community even comes CLOSE to that. so you’re mistaken in your statement.

      You say you’ve freed yourself from “gay orthodoxy memes” but it sounds more to me like you’re still attempting to forge an identity by telling everyone “what you’re not” rather than “what you are.”

      That’s like playing chess to avoid losing rather than playing chess to win.

      It’s just irritating to hear people insist that monogamy is a “the proper way to be” – it’s only the proper for things for those couples who both want to be monogamous for the same reasons. not all people relate to sex and sexuality in the same way. in a male-male system where there is no female partner with the usual female sex-drive, there is going to be a different sexual dynamic. this is why lesbians tend to “nest”.

      so, for the billionth time – this is not a Gay thing. it’s a MALE thing. many gay couples will be into long-term monogamy. i know a great deal of long-term monogamous gay male couples. i also know many long-term committed male couples who have an open sexual arrangement – that specific arrangement is what’s helped them have a successful long-term relationship: they’re honest, upfront and communicative about their sexuality (sexuality, NOT orientation, there’s a difference) and understand each other and how to best make their relationship work.

      what people need to be more wary of are Serial Monogamists – often it’s guys who can’t do monogamy, but can’t socially get their heads around various open-styled sexual arrangements. what happens? they get bored and they jump ship. they try on “boyfriends” and “love” like i try on jockstraps. look out for them. these are the guys who “fall in love” and have a boyfriend all the time – they’re NEVER single. and the root of that is dishonesty about their sexual appetites and desires – they want sex, they need sex, but they’re scared of being seen as “stereotypes” or “promiscuous” so they project “love” onto each guy that they date, when they’re only really in it for those few months so they can get laid. seriously. keep your eyes out for them.

      Sep 27, 2011 at 11:23 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      no, my “example” is that the “heterosexual world” has mainstream acceptance and celebrity for women who’ve done heterosexual pornography. they also sure do love them some Ron Jeremy.

      you claimed that only “our world” puts porn stars on a pedestal..c
      can YOU give a specific example of that? How gay porn stars are well-known mainstream celebrities?
      i can’t think of any. and i’m pretty darn gay.
      i didn’t lose an argument. i gave specific examples of how your statement was incorrect. unless YOU can prove me wrong and show how gay porn has been pumped up to the mainstream, then it’s you who has indeed “lost” the argument. i don’t see it as losing, however, i see it as backing up your claims with specific examples.

      now, what orthodoxy arguments am i making?

      it’s a biological reality that males are hardwired to “sow seeds” and females are hardwired to “nest”

      straight men’s ability to get laid is dependent on the sexual energy of a female. that energy, biologically and statistically, carries a “nesting” instinct.
      biologically and statistically that instinct is less prevalent in males.

      we’re a male-male system. lesbians are a female-female system. lesbians tend to nest. biologically, this makes sense. many males want monogamy for the same reasons. many males find that their particular sexual hardwiring makes monogamy difficult – that they find an arrangement for sexual openness to better aid their romantically-committed relationship does not mean that their relationship is less valid.

      a relationship is not founded on monogamy, it’s founded on love, trust, communication and honesty.

      Sep 27, 2011 at 12:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bryan
      Bryan

      @George412: Exactly, gays guys can delude themselves all you want, but go to a gay bar, go for a gay night out and you’ll see that she isn’t far off the truth.

      Sep 27, 2011 at 3:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      Bryan, unless you’re saying that Straight Bars are bastions of monogamy and family-planning I’m not sure what point you’re making.

      it’s a bar. it’s a club. it’s an alcoholically-lubricated social environment. some people embrace and accept their own individual sex drives, appetites and biology. some men fight them.

      most guys are not monogamously-wired, and yet WANT to be. so what do they do? they become Serial Monogamists. They stick around until the drive to have sex with someone else becomes so strong that the relatioship gets poisoned and they move to another guy to be “monogamous with” for a few weeks or months and then they do it all again.

      this is why i don’t see why people get so uppity about couples who choose to have an openly-sexual arrangement. is it bitterness that they love each other enough to be able to keep it sexually open, and you can’t find a guy for yourselves?

      most couples i know who have an openly-sexual relationship have incredibly healthy relationships. a relationship built on trust, open and honest communication and an understanding of their own sexuality as well as their partner’s.

      Sep 27, 2011 at 3:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Shes just be honest
      Shes just be honest

      She is just being honest! Don’t hate her for that…

      Sep 28, 2011 at 4:58 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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