“The annual marches ultimately accomplish two things: They entertain those of us—gay and straight—who already wholeheartedly support the cause of equal rights for the LGBT community, and they feed into the rotten stereotypes of bigots, the same people who fear gay Boy Scout leaders and consider same-sex marriage “deviant.” The LGBT community has every right to claim its place in the civil rights struggle. But in such a politically important year for the gay community, perhaps it’s time for its members to start taking some cues from the civil rights movement of old. […] I wish I could say that no bigots are going to use pictures of a few men in thongs in San Francisco to write off millions of gay, lesbian and transgender people, but I can’t. There’s a lot at stake right now. The community is on the verge, perhaps, of a tipping point for rights and acceptance. Maybe, just once, the LGBT community should try abandoning the scant costumes and embellished sexuality and “do two.” They could march down the center of America’s great cities in all the clothes they regularly wear, exposing themselves for what they truly are: normal human beings. It wouldn’t be as fun as past parades, and it’s not fair. But for now, that’s life.” —Heterosexual and former Jossip managing editor Cord Jefferson on how gay pride parades could be hurting the community [The Root]
cord jefferson
‘I wish I could say that no bigots are going to use pictures of a few men in thongs in San Francisco to write off millions of GLBTs, but I can’t’
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Fitz
I get flamed for this.. but I’ll say it again… it’s hard for us to make the argument for marriage rights when our partners are walking behind us on a leash, wearing nothing but a slave harness and a chastity cage. Time to grow up.
TANK
This same tired assimilationist rubbish gets trotted out and pumped each year for all its worth. Those that rely on it are unswayed by the fact that no matter what we do, whenever we do it, or how “normal” we appear, we are never going to change the minds of anyone who hasn’t made up their mind already. The hatred and contempt held by those who seek to deny us our basic human dignity will not be attenuated by behaving like we do the other 364 days a year, as evidenced by that fact alone and where we are presently. The harmful preconceptions vindicated by the parades assumes that they are “harmful” to begin with.
Mark Snyder
Shame-based campaigns have failed us again and again. We should continue to celebrate our culture, our uniqueness, and our sexuality. Sexual liberation must accompany queer liberation. I will not be oppressed or silenced by members of my own community. There will always be “lots at stake.” We hear that every year from the shameful gay men who just want to blend in. Those gay men forget it was the gay liberation front, the transgenders, and the drag queens who kicked this whole thing off.
Mike
@Fitz: Fritz, you should try to attend an actual gay pride. Yes, there are the extremes but my God how they are outnumbered by everday, average gay men and women just showing their pride.
scott ny'er
@Fitz: @TANK: @Mark Snyder:
All of you bring up great points. And I agree with them all but I tend to lean more towards Tank and Mark.
Stevious
In context, the number of people in pride parades who are scantily clad, or over the top drag queens, is fairly small, but even if there’s just one, that’s the image the main stream media will use to represent the rest of us, and make everyone think that’s what the GLBT community is all about.
Curtis
aarrgghhh. This is the same attitude that resulted in our voices being completely shut out of the campaign against Prop 8. We have nothing to fear from being ourselves, even if ourselves is sometimes frivolous, sexual, and perhaps even perverse to the eyes of a prude in Cincinnati. Freedom and liberation should not mean giving up everything to be like the most conservative elements of our society, it should be about being al that we are warts and all, because ultimately none of that impacts anyone.
These images have been with us for 40 years. They haven’t stopped us from getting the many rights we’ve won in those 4 decades.
Instead of fearing ourselves, and marginalizing expressions of our joyful colorful selves, we should be out front about all of it, and proudly and loudly be out in all aspects of our lives. It is difficult to marginalize those you know personally and as long as Burt and Betty in Cincinnati think they don’t know any Gay people because all the Gays in their lives remain closeted and afraid of offending anyone, they’ll keep judging us by a photo of a thong.
macscruff
I have to agree with the original posting.
Pride parades should not be a rolling orgy, this is our public face as a whole. The original intention was to show the pubic that we exist in all walks of life and are an integral part of the community. To show the pubic that we are your school teachers, firemen, policemen, bankers everyone knows someone gay.
What the parade is now is exactly what the people that hate us want it to be. No wonder when people think about “The Gays” all they can imagine is the sexual act.
Entertainment is fine, but we all know it goes way beyond that.
macscruff
@Curtis: “we should be out front about all of it, and proudly and loudly be out in all aspects of our lives.”
My sex life accounts for a marginal percent of who I am. Am I a freak in the gay world? A prude? Gay and equal rights are very important to me and I keep current and active, dancing in a thong or showing my bare ass, simulating sex in pubic or dressing up in a costume is not a daily routine.
Anthony in Nashville
I do not know why LGBTs would take tips from a straight man.
Image perception has always been an issue for minority groups. You can be try to be pragmatic when you know you’re going before “polite company” but I thought gay pride parades were not for the benefit of straights.
In any event, when gay groups like Mattachine in the 50s and early 60s required people to wear gender-appropriate suits and dresses, they were still getting hated on.
It isn’t the outward appearance, but our very presence that fuels homophobia. To think acceptance could come from something as superficial as sensible clothing is rather childish to me.
schlukitz
Have the “rotten stereotypes of bigots” ever taken a good hard look at the annual freak show in New Orleans known as Mardi Gras?
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, to use one of their own euphemisms.
TANK
Additionally, this is extremely naive and ignorant, too. And he’s straight? Well…what does he know about being gay. What civil rights tips? Booker T. Washington? Is that his idea of progressiveness?
scott ny'er
@macscruff: Orgy? I hope you don’t mean that literally in a sexual way. Because I don’t think I’ve ever seen an orgy on a float in a gay pride parade.
So, when the Caribbean parade or Puerto Rican parade has scantily clad women, is that the daily routine of these people? When the Rockettes show off lots of leg in their leg kicking line up in front of Macy’s in the thanksgiving parade is that part of America’s routine?
I think you’re mixing up being a prude and showing pride.
macscruff
@schlukitz: Were talking about Gay Pride Parades. Does Mardi Gras have a political agenda?
The same goes for Folsom St Fair, its about sex, so leave it at that, no worries.
But do we need a freak-fest called Gay Pride covered by the News. Like it or not, thats our pubic face to many.
Bruno
We have to be ourselves, and if that means not getting ahead as fast as if we pretend to be something else, so be it.
Thom Freeheart
Some of the undignified behavior in Gay Pride parades and festivals reinforces the stereotype of who we as gays are at a time we we are demanding to be treated with dignity. It presents us as obsessed with sex and nothing else. It is embarrassing and an unfair representation of who we are.
It would be the equivalent of blacks marching during the civil rights movement of the 60s while eating watermelons and holding signs that said “We Want Your White Womens.”
TANK
@macscruff:
It my trouble you to discover that homosexuality is about who one wants to have sex with, and also the acts themselves. As for the “freak fest,” your gripe isn’t about changing minds and winning hearts, but that you just don’t like it.
TANK
No homophobe will hate you any less for wearing a dress or some sexually revealing attire, mcscruff…and no more, either. Don’t do it, though.
InExile
@Anthony in Nashville: I agree with Anthony, no matter what we wear, they will hate us. As far as gay pride attire goes, even if we all wear business suits the bigots will cut and paste a picture of a drag queen and a leather daddy off the internet to use in ads against us.
The people that hate us just hate us and there is not much we can do to change that. The religious wing nuts will just quote their bible and say see, they are an abomination, marriage is between a man and a woman and so on…………..
Miss Understood
Sorry Cord, you’re handsome (Google him!) but you are wrong. The key to freedom it to stand up for the right not to conform tp society-proscribed norms. “Gay” is just a little piece of that. If a gay guy in a suit has more rights than a tranny then we have not won anything.
InExile
@schlukitz: It’s OK, they are straight so it does not matter how they dress or behave. Whatever they do is OK as long as they show up occasionally to church!
Miss Understood
Also, I think you are picking on a tiny section of the Gay Pride march. It looks to me to be about 90% community groups and marching bands. Fortunately there are enough flashy costumed groups to keep me entertained! Of coarse they get all the camera time, who wants to stare at someone in normal clothing.
Tim in SF
@macscruff: I have to agree with the original posting.
In regards to how I express myself, I don’t take orders from anybody. I sure as hell won’t take them from a straight guy.
Pride parades should not be a rolling orgy, this is our public face as a whole.
Bullshit. Pride parades not our public face any more than the Saint Patrick’s Parade is the public face of Irish Americans. Most parades (and every Pride parade) are corporate sponsored events, with a majority of the floats being paid for by companies and staffed by the gay groups within those companies. A few of those companies happen to be gay clubs or porn stores & websites, and what they sell is sex (to one degree or another). Their floats look like their advertisements. Don’t like it? Take it up with the gay clubs and the porn stores and websites.
Doesn’t that rainbow on the flag represent diversity? Where’s the diversity if everyone marching down the street has to dress and act like you, Macscruff?
You fucking assimilationist pussy. You go down on your knees to suck cock like everyone else on this page, so save us your high and mighty indignation and clutching of pearls.
macscruff
@TANK: No TANK, I respect your ideas and have often read your posts.
Being gay for me goes beyond sexual conduct. It is who I have feelings for and is a solid basis of who I am. Yet, I dont have sex in public, with strangers (at least not lately) to validate who I am.
The people who oppose gay rights, what do they have in their minds about gay people. One word – sex which is disgusting to them. The people not in the gay community who are pro-gay rights recognize being gay is about whom you love, not a simple physical act.
How seriously would you take a man promoting a political agenda if he were in a dress, or in nothing but hot pants?
There are plenty of festivals where this is fine, cute, sexy and sure I like to take my shirt off, show my chest and tattoo covered body but when I am leading a meeting at work, I wear appropriate clothing. I just think were always going to be thought of as jokes and perverts if thats what we appear to be in the one festival that should remain political.
Thom Freeheart
Gay Rights is no longer about the right to have sex – that we’ve won. So now I can fuck like a monkey in the privacy of my own home without fear of arrest.
Gay Rights is now about being treated with dignity. Let’s show the world that in public we can behave with dignity.
Republican
What’s so wrong with to each his own? Some label those of us who don’t put on fairy wings or enjoy wearing rainbow colors assimilationists, but the truth is that for many of us, it just isn’t our thing. For me, acting wild in public would be pretending to be someone I’m not. I’m much more of the quiet, reserved, hold-hands-while-walking-down-the-street type. That’s not to say that what I do is what everyone should do. If pride parades are your thing, more power to ya, but do realize that one can be openly gay and proud without enjoying these events.
macscruff
@Tim in SF: Youre not offending me. You also have the wrong idea of who I am, or what I look like. SF is my home believe me been there, done that and more. We pushed for change in radical ways years ago. I was an active part of ActUp. Times have changed however, and you need to evolve beyond some physical attire representing who you are.
Tim in SF
@macscruff: Youre not offending me. You also have the wrong idea of who I am, or what I look like.
Of course. I don’t know who you are, where you live, what you do for kicks or how you dress. But I don’t need to know any of those things to judge what you said.
You are supporting an assimilationist view. Don’t take it personally if you get trashed for it in this public forum.
…Times have changed however, and you need to evolve beyond some physical attire representing who you are.
Times do change. However, the arguments against the more flamboyant, tacky, naked, loud (take your pick or add your own adjective) in our pride parades (and other public displays) have not changed—the same, tired old arguments I’ve been hearing for twenty years: variations on the theme of toning-it-down so we don’t scare the straights. What also doesn’t change is my surprise that people still trot out these old arguments. They were wrong back when the Pride Parades showed the pubic that we exist in all walks of life and are an integral part of the community. To show the pubic that we are your school teachers, firemen, policemen, bankers everyone knows someone gay. Those arguments are still just as wrong today.
TANK
Gay Rights is no longer about the right to have sex – that
we’ve won.
But that was only a part of it. IF you’re partnered, I bet you think about holding hands when you walk down the street. You think about the potential consequences of doing it. You can’t married in most states and enjoy equal benefits to marriage (not even in CA with domestic partnerships), and have no workplace antidiscrimination protection.
So now I can fuck like a monkey in the privacy of my own home without fear of arrest.
TMI. But, it wasn’t just about that. But you’re probably in a new kind of closet; the kind where you present as heterosexual, and prefer it that way.
Gay Rights is now about being treated with dignity. Let’s show the world that in public we can behave with dignity.
It always was, though. I see nothing incompatible with the spectacles on display at pride parades and being treated with dignity. Once again, you’re not going to get it from people who don’t want to give it no matter what you do.
schlukitz
@macscruff:
“Yet, I dont have sex in public, with strangers (at least not lately) to validate who I am”
You say it like it is a bad thing?
Umm…where did Adam and Eve have sex? In a Victorian, multi-colored townhouse? A Frank Lloyd right modern house? A condo? Perhaps a Chariot Park Model Modular?
What? What?
Nor, did I know that the Gay pride Parade had to be all political, all business…and no fun?
When were those rules made?
And by whom?
macscruff
@Tim in SF: I have admit, I have respect for The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, they do some good work. Im also glad that Joe Solmonese doesnt appear on Nightline in a dress and make up.
Im sure you’re much much older than those arguments. If I am supporting an assimilationist view, fine, whatever. I would still be out in the naked drum circles but when Im suppose to be showing pride, youre damned right Im not going to be naked or in a clown costume.
Youre not scaring straights. The desensitization of the public in regards to the gay community happened long ago. Once again time and place, were beyond that.
TANK
Being gay for me goes beyond sexual conduct. It is who I have feelings for and is a solid basis of who I am. Yet, I dont have sex in public, with strangers (at least not lately) to validate who I am.
See, I don’t see the connection between being gay as being beyond sexual conduct and having sex in public and with strangers…validating who you are. The point is, though, that while being gay isn’t about the sex acts themselves but the propensity or disposition to engage in them, also, the acts are satisfaction conditions of being gay…and are thus a part of it.
The people who oppose gay rights, what do they have in their minds about gay people. One word – sex which is disgusting to them.
And they’ll never have anything but that in their minds. It’s not necessarily “disgusting” to them (though it is to most social conservatives…and not just gay sex, but all types of it. STudies bear this out…that concerning ethics, it’s not so much harm or suffering that is stressed by them, but what grosses them out), but also just an excuse to maintain the social status quo which was designed to benefit conservative white men. If not the parades, another excuse will be used by them to deny gay people their rights. It doesn’t matter…any old excuse will do.
The people not in the gay community who are pro-gay rights recognize being gay is about whom you love, not a simple physical act.
I don’t think love enters into the picture. It’s a nice slogan, too…the freedom to lvoe. It can, suppose…but love has about as much to do with sexual orientation as fashion sense. I love certain books more than I’ve loved anyone.
How seriously would you take a man promoting a political agenda if he were in a dress, or in nothing but hot pants?
But isn’t that a part of the problem? Even pragmatically speaking, how seriously are the bigots going to take that same man dressed in a suit saying the same thing? Not too seriously…
schlukitz
@Thom Freeheart:
Do you publicly flagellate yourself often for being queer, Freeheart?
schlukitz
@Republican:
Vanilla, chocolate and strawberry. ;P
macscruff
@TANK: “See, I don’t see the connection between being gay as being beyond sexual conduct…”
Wow, really, if this isn’t a typo then I have lost all respect for you. Being gay is all about the sexual act for you TANK? Amazing.
macscruff
@Thom Freeheart: I agree fully with Thom – “It would be the equivalent of blacks marching during the civil rights movement of the 60s while eating watermelons and holding signs that said “We Want Your White Womens.”
TANK
@macscruff:
You misunderstood. Read the whole thing. I don’t think being gay entails having anonymous sex in public. I find those seedy sketchy toilet tramps revolting…and can pick them out a mile away…it’s really a type of person, and smacks of an older generation of closeted repression.
Those acts are a part of being gay. They’re the satisfaction conditions of gay desires. There isn’t a clean break between orientation and sexual acts as many christians and also gays observe. This is true in spite of the fact that one need not act on their same sex sexual desires (Though there isn’t a good reason not to…). IT’s a package deal.
Thom Freeheart
@schlukitz: I’m proud to be gay. Gay is normal. It is not hedonistic, so I choose to comport myself with dignity so that I represent homosexuals in a normal light.
PJ
Is the whole idea of Pride supposed to be about us being proud of our sexuality and our sexual identities?
I am not advocating the idea of people running naked in the streets but doesn’t being gay have something to do with the people we partner ourselves with sexually?
If we are to be proud of our sexual identities, we are going to have to express ourselves sexually. IMHO, it Pride parades are akin to women burning their bras. Should we condemn those women for expressing their freedom from sexual subjugation? Should we abandon our sexual identities because we are going to make the religious “right” uncomfortable?
Speaking of the religious “right,” do we need to give them an excuse to berate us? That is, even if we all walked down 5th Avenue in tuxedos, they would find some reason to hate us for being gay. They already hate us for being better coiffed than they are.
With great admiration and respect to our drag performers, in the Pride parade, they serve the function of our “clowns.” There is nothing funny about the message they convey but the avenue of that message does bring us humor and delight.
Pride is supposed to be a celebration. We are celebrating our Diversity. This means that “Leathers” will be wearing their chaps and chains as a sign of their diversity. Drag performers will be in their glorious and sometimes sublime costumes. People from all walks of life will be walking arm in arm to show how truly diverse we really are. Some will be entertaining and some will be merely walking but everyone will be conveying the same message, “We are all the same and we are all different.”
I disagree with the idea of hiding who we are and taking the joy out of Pride in order to make the religious “right” happy. They are never going to be happy with us. I am more of the mind that we should be happy in ourselves and we should celebrate that than I am of the mind that we should somberly walk the streets and pretend that we are something we are not in order to attempt to console the bigots of this world.
Since this article is telling us that we should not celebrate who we are but merely walk down a street together, lot’s not have fife and drum corps at St. Patrick’s Day parades because we will offend the British and the pagans. There should no longer be balloons or Santa Clause at the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day parade because we will offend the Muslims and the Jews. There should be no more Latin-American Pride festivals, Portuguese Pride festivals, Italian – American Pride festivals, and no more gay Pride festivals. This way, we can make everyone happy.
Thom Freeheart
We are not deviant so let’s not deviate.
Thom Freeheart
Gay marriage has become law in states where such outrageous behavior is not the norm in pride parades. Perhaps California should follow their example.
Gay in LA
Agreed. I’m gay and find myself a bit red-faced at some of these events.
schlukitz
@Thom Freeheart:
“It is not hedonistic, so I choose to comport myself with dignity so that I represent homosexuals in a normal light.”
Man, I can’t believe you said that!
Do you honestly believe that the fundies and magical undies crowd are ever going to accept us (or you), under any circumstances, as “normal”?
And, who gets to define exactly what “normal” is?
macscruff
@PJ: PJ you make a valid point. I have to agree with much of that.
However, this is a strong statement in the original post “They could march down the center of America’s great cities in all the clothes they regularly wear, exposing themselves for what they truly are: normal human beings.” and to think it comes from a heterosexual. That man is correct and has a mature notion.
Also the first response here is correct in my opinion: “it’s hard for us to make the argument for marriage rights when our partners are walking behind us on a leash, wearing nothing but a slave harness and a chastity cage. Time to grow up.”
schlukitz
@PJ:
Hear, hear, PJ. Excellent post.
Obviously there are many here who are only too happy to follow the minions of hetero-worshippers while wearing their drab, dull and uninspired, grey overcoats.
Just what is so horribly wrong with wearing Jacob’s coat of many colors, I ask?
TANK
The take away is that whether you find it distasteful to behave and dress as some in pride parades do is immaterial to whether or not we’ll achieve rights (and the expediency with which we attain them) given the obvious fact that those who oppose them will continue no matter what we do save cease to exist.
As to these stereotypes being negative, you’ve enabled the right to, once again, make the rules of the game.
strumpetwindsock
Normal?
How far do you have to search to find examples of straight people behaving badly and acting like sluts? It’s everywhere on TV, movies, in public and even in advertising.
Yet we’re supposed to carry ourselves like monks and nuns and be ashamed of things they do openly in the vain and ridiculous hope that they’ll accept us if we behave ourselves and don’t rub it in their faces.
Fuck ’em. If it ain’t illegal and I’m not hurting anyone I’ll do whatever I want. You boys can philosophize about it all you want.
Thom Freeheart
We deserve equal rights because we are human beings, not because we are sexual beings.
TANK
@Thom Freeheart:
Which has nothing to do with what transpires in a pride parade.
macscruff
@schlukitz: grey Overcoats? Coats of many colors? What are you talking about? Unless youre a complete nutcase you know what goes over the line in terms of being taken seriously and being a joke.
Look, overt sexuality in a Pride event during a time when we all feel the impending hate from anti-gay groups is just a set back and a deprecated display.
If I were to be represented in a public display, I sure as hell would not want you some crazy ass bibical coat, especially in June.
strumpetwindsock
@Thom Freeheart:
Absolutely right. But you cannot separate the two. The biggest problem with many religions is that they try to pretend that our sexual aspect does not exist.
A lot of the bigot churches are already saying we can be clergy so long as we don’t have sex.
But if we have to strap on a big chastity belt in order to get those rights, what are they worth?
strumpetwindsock
@macscruff:
Jesus Christ.
The pride parade I was at yesterday had tons of drag and near nudity, lots of straights (or at least bi people) and lots of kids and everyone was having fun.
Why do you want to sell into the mindset of the most radical of our critics when most reasonable and normal people are completely on our side.
It accomplishes nothing, and no one would believe us anyway if we tried to shove ourselves back into that stupid closet.
TANK
I draw the line at mixing kids with nudity and overt displays of sexuality. I don’t care if they don’t understand it. I think it’s wrong.
Tim in SF
@macscruff: @Thom Freeheart: I agree fully with Thom – “It would be the equivalent of blacks marching during the civil rights movement of the 60s while eating watermelons and holding signs that said “We Want Your White Womens.”
No, blacks did not do that during their civil rights movement. And yet, bigots still made the watermelon and white womens references in spades (so to speak).
You make Tank’s point. There’s no reason to censor yourself or to live in fear of your oppressors’ stereotyping. They are going to malign you either way. Might as well not let it dictate your actions.
I am puzzled. Is this really difficult to understand?
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Ever been to a beach or public swimming pool? That is what I am talking about
strumpetwindsock
Though I have been to plenty of nude beaches where kids were present. Most little kids prefer to be naked anyway. So long as no one is going down on anyone else there is no problem, IMHO.
Thom Freeheart
@macscruff: @Thom Freeheart: I agree fully with Thom – “It would be the equivalent of blacks marching during the civil rights movement of the 60s while eating watermelons and holding signs that said “We Want Your White Womens.”
No, blacks did not do that during their civil rights movement. And yet, bigots still made the watermelon and white womens references in spades (so to speak).
You make Tank’s point. There’s no reason to censor yourself or to live in fear of your oppressors’ stereotyping. They are going to malign you either way. Might as well not let it dictate your actions.
I am puzzled. Is this really difficult to understand?
********************
Perhaps you didn’t notice, but blacks achieved equality. We haven’t. Perhaps what we have been doing is not working?
I am puzzled. Is this really difficult to understand?
Tim in SF
@Thom Freeheart: We deserve equal rights because we are human beings, not because we are sexual beings.
We deserve these rights because we are Americans.
Miss Understood
Right now we have a whole spectrum of different types of people at Gay Pride. You just don’t like some of them. You are the ones choosing to focus on the ones you don’t like. You think it’s up to you to tell other people how to dress and how to behave.
Hey I’m uncomfortable with gay conservatives. Gay Republicans embarass and humiliate me. But they exist and therefor they will be there. Nothing I can or should do about it.
Stop thinking that everyone else is supposed to represent YOU. Put on a fucking tie and go represent yourself. Don’t tell the rest of us what to do.
strumpetwindsock
@Tim in SF:
No he’s right. It’s human beings.
Americans are no different than anyone else, and even in your own country you have plenty of non-Americans who are just as entitled to human rights as you are.
schlukitz
@macscruff:
I’ve been biting my tongue in a sincere effort to remain civil and refrain from telling you what I really think of your comments, but since you have seen fit to refer to me as a “complete nutcase, yada, yada, yada”, I see no reason why I should not pull out the stops out with you.
It’s not the drag queens and all the other gay stereotypes that are the embarrassment to the LGBT community. It’s the morally correct, homo-apologetic, hetereo-ass-kissy types like you who are the real embarrassment to our community.
Like the religious right who wrap themselves up in the flag and pound the bible while loudly protesting and condemning those whom they do not like, you come off sounding equally as bigoted, hateful, judgemental and discriminatory as they do. Oh, and did I mention anti-homosexual?
I can just envision you at Stonewall on the night the riots broke out, standing on the sidelines and watching, as TV’s and drag queens battled fiercely with “New York’s finest” *sarcasm font on*, and won you the right to congregate publicly, go to gar bars and dance at discos without fear of being arrested and jailed, as well as the other liberties that you obviously take for granted, as you yelled at them “Girls, girls, please, show a little dignity. What will people think?”
Do us a favor. Go back to your closet and let the rest of LGBT community get on with their lives in whatever form they choose to live it.
God doesn’t really give a good shit one way or the other.
Have you ever headrd the expression, “Live and let live?”
Republican
Miss Understood,
We’re not ALL bad.
Tim in SF
@Thom Freeheart: Perhaps you didn’t notice, but blacks achieved equality. We haven’t. Perhaps what we have been doing is not working?
Blacks achieved equality (more or less) but it was a long time coming. Too long.
In the intervening years there were plenty of examples of blacks behaving badly, but that didn’t derail the movement. Did it?
I’d sure like to see you tell some of your black friends act less stereotypically black – that they should behave more like white people – if they want to enjoy the benefits of society. Oh boy, would I ever like to see that.
As for whether or not what we are doing is working or not, I think any reasonable observation of history, especially recent history, would dispel any notion that we are not making tremendous progress – despite (or even because of) ass chaps and wigs. Today, I’m legally married. Twenty years ago I never thought it would happen in my lifetime. That’s progress.
schlukitz
@Thom Freeheart:
“Perhaps you didn’t notice, but blacks achieved equality. We haven’t. Perhaps what we have been doing is not working?”
Strawman argument.
Blacks achieved equality only because they demanded their rights, long before we had the balls to stand up and say, “I am madder than hell and I am not going to take this anymore.”
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Told you I draw the fuckin’ line! IT’s pervert shit like that fucks kids up. Sexualizes ’em, gives ’em fucked up boundaries. babies having babies! I think it’s suspect parents bringing kids to nude beaches or nudists raising kids in nudist compounds… I don’t care if kids “prefer” to be nude. They need layers of clothing on them to protect their childhoods from what they prefer and people that wag their junk around nudist beaches when kids are around.
schlukitz
@Thom Freeheart:
On second thought, your argument might be more accurately described as a “red herring”.
Tim in SF
@strumpetwindsock: No he’s right. It’s human beings. Americans are no different than anyone else, and even in your own country you have plenty of non-Americans who are just as entitled to human rights as you are.
Not that I disagree with your point, Strumpet, but this blog post is from from Jossip editor Cord Jefferson, an American, talking about American Pride parades which “march down the center of America’s great cities.” The context of this discussion, unless I am mistaken, is specific to America. If you want to extrapolate that out to the world stage (and to whatever world court or Earth-wide constitution grants human rights to every human being), that’s fine. But my point is still valid: I demand these rights as an American. I am an American citizen, I pay taxes, and I expect to enjoy the same rights as every other American.
schlukitz
@TANK:
Obviously, the religious brainwashing about nudity and feeling shameful about your body is what is operating you.
Babies and little children do not arrive on this planet with an inborn sense of modesty, decency or shame about their bodies.
In fact, little children will take their clothes off at the drop of a hat because it feels good to be naked and having our bodies bathed in fresh air (or water), until the fundies and magical undies crown fill their little heads with guilt, shame and make teach them how feel shitty about their bodies, let alone, alone any manifestation of their sexuality.
Sick, sick, sick.
And you, my friend, are the direct result of that heinous crime.
And you wonder whey “they” will not let us marry the ones we love?
TANK
Babies and little children do not arrive on this planet with an inborn sense of modesty, decency or shame about their bodies.
Factually incorrect. Body shame is innate and should be nurtured and encouraged…given the obesity epidemic in the u.s.
But honestly, studies indicate that people do prefer to be covered than nude from a very early age, implying that it’s innate.
Thom Freeheart
Wow. Schlukitz never wears clothes. Awesome.
schlukitz
@Thom Freeheart:
“We deserve equal rights because we are human beings, not because we are sexual beings.”
But, we are sexual beings!
How did you get here, by a miraculous conception?
schlukitz
@strumpetwindsock:
“But if we have to strap on a big chastity belt in order to get those rights, what are they worth?”
Touché
Darrien
Everywhere else in the world that has greater gay rights than the US achieved those rights through being themselves. They didn’t tone anything down or pretend to be something they weren’t. Ultimately, equal rights is about equal treatment of diverse groups. It’s not about everyone having to behave the same to be treated equally.
TANK
@Thom Freeheart:
BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAANS!!!!
Andramata
If funny because when it’s Halloween the straight men LOVE to dress up and a drag queen or an ultra gay man. it’s Acceptable. but let a gay man decided to wear a g-string and glitter for PRIDE. it’s not appropriate. MardiGras, Halloween, are two occasions that it’s acceptable to wear what you want. but why can’t gay pride be the same. if the straight people don’t like to see it; its as easy as don’t look, down be around, don’t be a spectator. Those are the closet ones that can’t do what they see so they hate! Plain and simple.
galefan2004
I USED to feel this way. However, fuck that. Seriously, fuck it all to hell. You see, this belief tries to show that the gays and lesbians are somehow responsible for the stereotypes and bigotry that we face on a normal basis. That is such utter crap. The truth is, those bigoted asshats, the same ones that think we shouldn’t be given rights or that we shouldn’t be allowed around children, are going to have those same views if we march down the street in a tuxedo or naked. If we wore the tuxedo they would claim we had something to hide, and if we were naked they’d claim we should be wearing tuxedos. Seriously, I’m tired of blaming myself for the views of others. This reeks of the same stupidity that says its ok to be gay and go to a church as long as you don’t have sex. That is bogus to.
strumpetwindsock
@Tim in SF:
Nope.
You may have the privilege of owning a handgun in the U.S., but human rights are human rights are human rights.
Think I’m wrong? Name one human right that you deserve have that the rest of us do not.
@TANK:
I see your point, but you might feel differently if you spent some time in other countries, Germany in particular. When I lived there nobody even thought twice about walking naked in front of a roommate, regardless of gender or relationship.
North Americans are exceptionally modest, and not all cultures are so hung up when it comes to being naked in front of other people. Really, there is a big difference between simple nudity and overt sexuality (which I think children SHOULD be shielded from).
galefan2004
@macscruff: “Yellow”, and I’m really not trying to be racist here, but I believe that is the correct term, blacks have been encouraged to act just like whites for years. They are even given more consideration in black families and in the black community (again not trying to be racist and Tyra might not be the most reliable source). However, although they can assimilate into white culture they are never accepted. The same people that view all blacks with hatred and bigotry include them as black. Hell, for that matter, Oprah is the richest woman in the history of this country, but because she is black she will always be considered by the majority of sociologist as upper middle class because black women are not allowed into the true upper classes. The same people that see a drag queen and hate them for who they are look at you and your probably “closeted” life and sees you as a big flaming drag queen not because of who you are or anything you have done but because they hate your kind. Stop being one of those self-hating homosexuals that makes idiotic claims like, “being gay is just part of who I am,” because in the eyes of the haters it doesn’t matter if you are president or if you are the pope or if you are their own child, if you are gay you are simply trash. Deal with it.
schlukitz
@Andramata:
Exactly so, Andramata. And what about the annual Fantasy-Fest in Key West, Florida…a straight event, no less? Tits, cocks and balls all hang out…for four straight days. *pun intended* LOL
http://www.festivalpig.com/fantasy-fest.html
I went to it a few years back with several other gay friends. Should we, as gays, have been offended? We got into the spirit of it and had a blast.
I have long suspected that those who are offended, enjoy being offended. What other possible reason could they have for being there in the first place?
As you said, in effect, no one put a gun to their heads to either look or observe.
Andramata
And what’s this about the children. My parents walked in front me naked all the time.
My brother and sister are straight and I’m gay. you think that made me who I am cause I saw dick tits and pussy? One I would never look at my parents sexually. If we saw it on tv big deal we saw it at home. my parents and I went to nude beaches. I saw it all around me. to this day I sleep naked. I walk around naked. I was brought up that it was ok. One good thing is that it made me stay in shape so I can feel comfortable to frolic around on beaches naked and not feeling anyway about it
John Santos
Fuck Cord Jefferson. Everything he touches turns to shit–clearly he’s been touching his head.
schlukitz
There is an oft-repeated saying that “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder”.
I think that it can also be truthfully said of lust, sin and evil.
galefan2004
@macscruff: Those “men in dresses” as you like to call them started a movement called Stonewall. That movement led to homosexuality being removed from the list of mental disorders and homosexuals being given the right to meet in public places. So, in short, the only reason you don’t go to jail or the state hospital (where you get to experience fun things like shock therapy) for fucking your man, meeting with your man in public, or for that matter even posting on this website (because this would be a meeting of gay men in a public forum) is because a bunch of politicians took one group of really pissed off men in dresses VERY seriously. Show some respect to the sisters of Stonewall.
galefan2004
@Republican: You are either misinformed or stupid. The label of assimilationist is not given to those that want to look a certain way. It is given to people that demand everyone should look the way they desire to look themselves. So, basically your very post was an argument against assimilation.
Mr. Enemabag Jones
If anyone sees Cord Jefferson at a Pride parade, feel free to kick his ass.
strumpetwindsock
@strumpetwindsock:
As an example of difference in perspective, anyone I spoke with in Germany thought it was disgusting and filthy for anyone to go into a sauna wearing a bathing suit.
“Would you have a bath in a bathing suit and expect to get clean?” was the usual response.
And nobody I know there is hung up about children seeing them naked. Really that sort of shame and aversion is something you only get because you are taught it is shameful.
Tim in SF
@Republican: What’s so wrong with to each his own? Some label those of us who don’t put on fairy wings or enjoy wearing rainbow colors assimilationists, but the truth is that for many of us, it just isn’t our thing.
Not my thing either. But to clarify, I believe the term (assimilationist) is being used here in the context of those who would dictate the behaviors of others, specifically, gay men who are judging other gay men for behavior they seem to think is too gay. Or something.
Tim in SF
@strumpetwindsock: @Tim in SF:
Nope.
Nope to what part?
“This blog post is from from Jossip editor Cord Jefferson, an American, talking about American Pride parades which “march down the center of America’s great cities.” that’s true.
“The context of this discussion, unless I am mistaken, is specific to America. ” I believe that’s true as well.
“If you want to extrapolate that out to the world stage (and to whatever world court or Earth-wide constitution grants human rights to every human being), that’s fine.” Yep, do what you want.
“But my point is still valid: I demand these rights as an American. I am an American citizen, I pay taxes, and I expect to enjoy the same rights as every other American.” That’s absolutely true.
You can make this discussion about you if you want. But I’m not going to play along. Sorry. Too busy.
Republican
Gale, you are the stupid one, my little, bitchy friend. I have been called assimilationist for having that exact stance. OF COURSE my position isn’t assimilationist, that’s why the charge is so ridiculous, but it’s not uncommon for those who do enjoy glitter and rainbows to act like ALL of us gays who dress conservatively are trying to force our way on our more liberal brethren.
galefan2004
@Thom Freeheart: You must be kidding me. Have you never heard of Provincetown, MA? The reason that area attracts every single member of the New England States(you know all those states where gay marriage is legal) is because the people that like the gays like to go to the big festivals and see the drag queens and the go-go boys right there in the middle of the street. My aunt loves going to Provincetown pride events and she is straight and old and from RI. You should really look closely at those states before you make such remarks because those states are VERY big on culture and its gay culture that got the straights that weren’t bigoted asses to respect the gays in the first place.
strumpetwindsock
@Tim in SF:
Tim in SF
@galefan2004: Those “men in dresses” as you like to call them started a movement called Stonewall.
I heard it was mostly the gay youth, many of them homeless, who initiated and fueled the initial protest. There were some drag queens there, yes, but don’t discount the majority who were throwing rocks who were kids in jeans and tee shirts.
strumpetwindsock
@Tim in SF: Two things:
1) I did read the word “american” in there, but since I spent yesterday having a blast at a non-American Pride day I don’t see any reason to act isolationist or special about it, especially because:
2) They call them human rights because they are human rights… not American rights. You ignored my question. Do you have any innate human rights that should also not be recognized for any non-American? THink about a non-American who also happens to live within the borders of your great country.
Anyway, I don’t want to get into a pissing war about it; just trying to point out that your country IS connected to the rest of the world and we are all fighting for the same thing.
strumpetwindsock
@Tim in SF:
Also, although most of the people who visit this site are American, it is not exclusively so.
The internet is universal, and the rest of us have just as much right to comment as U.S. citizens.
Tim in SF
@strumpetwindsock: You ignored my question.
I ignored it because I considered it irrelevant to the topic. Still do.
The internet is universal, and the rest of us have just as much right to comment as U.S. citizens.
Strawman. No one is saying it isn’t and that you don’t. What I’m saying is that, IMHO, it is irrelevant to the conversation.
Republican
Tim, I understand that. My post was more of a general comment. Unfortunately, some of the radicals seem to think that all of us traditional gays are hiding our innerselves (acting heterosexual in their minds) and secretly hating them for being glitter and rainbows and wanting all gays to be the same. I have been called assimilationist for even commenting that I like the idea of marriage. Even after explaining that I don’t think gays must get married, they still thought I secretly looked down on them for not acting more reserved and/or masculine. It’s then that I realized a city like SF wasn’t for me, so once I graduated college, I got the heck out of the bay area.
galefan2004
@Republican: Thank you for the compliment. I stand by that bitch title. I like it. I like being the bitch. Anyways, I can’t account for stupidity on the behalf of others but I told you what the term is normally used as (and how it is being used here). To accuse someone of being an assimilationist means that you are accusing them of wanting everyone to drop their differences and assimilate to the societal “norms” that are supposed to govern our culture. Check out dictionary.com for a definition:http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/assimilationist. However, it can be used to mean someone that actually does the actual assimilation, that is not the way it has been used here so far. I feel for you because you are a “walking oxymoron” or whatever they try to say. The truth is, that if people would just admit to it, the Republican party is not filled with evil asshats or completely stupid ideas. I am an independent, while I normally vote Democrat, I always make sure to know who I am voting for personally (in all possible cases and last election the only person I voted for that I hadn’t met was Obama although I did meet Joe Biden in person but I also attended a McCain rally), and I voted for a Republican (I know its shocking) to take over for a Democrat prosecutor in my county this last election (because that Democrat was doing a horrible job). At the same time, I was volunteering my ass off (I only wish this was true because I still have way to much of an ass) to get a Democratic US Congressman elected for the second time because I knew who he was and the only reason I really knew who he was was because Bob Ney destroyed this district’s reputation before this guy ran to replace him and beat him.
galefan2004
@Tim in SF: While you are probably mostly right please don’t discount the reason it all started in the first place and that was because NY had a policy that prevented “inappropriate” attire in public so those drag queens were breaking the law and instead of going quietly that night like they did many other nights they charged the police and started a riot to beat all riots.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS9jBmbdeX4 (I used this video in a class project that I did on Gay and Lesbian Literature Criticism for my undergrad which was done with 3 chicks and another gay guy. I lost points for “not having credible outside sources, but our intent of the whole presentation was to tell it how it was regardless of how pissed off the rest of the class became or how much our grade took a hit for it.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots
http://www.socialistalternative.com/literature/stonewall.html
As a former drag queen (it got way to costly to do it any longer as I live 45 minutes from the closest gay bar), I am damn proud of my sisters and my brothers (those boys that dance for your tips) and their part in the gay movement for the decades that started with Stonewall. The amount of money raised by these people and given away to gay related causes is STAGGERING. If they want to show up and do their thing (most of the time for charity) outdoors during pride month and at pride parades then by all means let them.
galefan2004
@strumpetwindsock: Seriously, I was going to give Tim in SF drama for the same thing, but what you have to understand that although it is completely incorrect (because it is so far from being true its pathetic), nationalistic views that we are ingrained with since birth many times cause us to think on an American only level. It doesn’t mean that he doesn’t think that people everywhere do not have the same rights as people here.
On a side note, now he will probably get on my ass about him being able to fight his own battles.
strumpetwindsock
@Tim in SF:
Well if it applies to non-Americans in your own country then I think you recognize we are not talking about “american” rights, but universal human rights.
You might want to do a bit of research into the concepts and theories of natural law and universal rights.
But if you feel there is some kind of magical firewall between yourself and the rest of the world be my guest.
I’ll continue to post here whenever I feel it is appropriate, and I’ll continue to have fun at Pride celebrations, wherever I happen to be. I wish you all the best getting those American rights recognized.
Tim in SF
@strumpetwindsock: Well if it applies to non-Americans in your own country then I think you recognize we are not talking about “american” rights, but universal human rights. You might want to do a bit of research into the concepts and theories of natural law and universal rights.
Pffft!
strumpetwindsock
@galefan2004:
Thanks. Yeah, I know I’m probably being a bit pedantic.
On the other hand, it does come down to the fact that all these rights we are fighting for are innate and universal, and that we are all here to help one another, not build up walls and exclude.
You know what. I had a great time at Pride yesterday, and none of this fucking bullshit is going to erase that. But we’re not doing to get our rights recognized by suppressing who we are and stuffing ourselve back into closets.
This whole discussion is fucked, considering that if you want to see a great slut parade all you you just have to show up at any Mardi Gras or Carnival festivity. It’s no problem for the straights. Why should we be chiding each other about it?
Tim in SF
@galefan2004: While you are probably mostly right please don’t discount the reason it all started in the first place
I don’t. I wasn’t there, so I only have to go on what I can read.
BTW, you sent me the link to the very Wikipedia page I read to check my facts before I made my post regarding the gay youth at Stonewall.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
I don’t see an argument against legal positivism. I don’t want to read your cut and paste jobs, either, so forget about it. Natural law theory is often used by religious people, too (e.g., Aquinas is perhaps one of the best historical examples). “God’s law”.
Republican
Gale, I do know what assimilationist means and I explained in my replies to you and to Tim how I was using it in my original comment. The dictionary dot com bullshit is beyond insulting, but oh well. I’m well aware that I was not using it in the same way as others in this thread. I was venting about some things in general.
Now that we’ve been catty back and forth about a word, let’s move on.
I do appreciate your respectful comments about my politics. I voted for McCain. Obama has done little to impress me thus far, so I feel good about my decision at the moment.
BTW, I apologize for asking if you were gay in another thread. You were sounding like one of those older, straight females who sometimes post here, so I was actually being serious with that question. No offense was intended.
Dorian
And he’s right. I mean, are we going to continue the old excuse that it’s about expressing ourselves? No. Like it or not, having men prancing around in a thong is not helping our cause. What it does is feed into the stereotype that gay men are freakish sluts by nature.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
“cut and paste?” WTF are you talking about?
So natural law is okay when you’re touting rousseau, hobbes and locke, but bad when it’s me pointing out that our rights to marriage, security and equality are based on that same foundation?
Human rights are the universal whether the subject in question is queer, catholic, or nazi. That’s why they are called Universal.
But by all means, enjoy your Great American Rights if you feel it is important to be so special and distinct. I’ll enjoy my rights, and my distinctly non-American pride celebrations.
SammySeattle
If I still had an ass like I did at 22 I’d be wearing a thong at the grocery store. Lighten up folks, it’s all in fun. Dykes on Bikes, the Sisters, the politicians, the gogo boys, the gay Microsoft workers, we’re all in this together. Our symbol is a rainbow for a reason.
galefan2004
@strumpetwindsock: I’m glad you enjoyed pride. I assume you went to the pride in Canada (I think Toronto). I would have loved to have gone to that considering my all time favorite porn star was there and I would give almost anything to meet him.
galefan2004
@Tim in SF: That is not surprising, I only glanced at it. The article that I linked goes into much more detail. Unfortunately, I didn’t keep the paper I wrote for my Modern US History class in my Sophomore year of college or the resources I used for it, so I was going mostly off of memory. I was lucky in college because although I went to a smaller school (a branch of a larger state University) in a relatively rural area of the Bible Belt, my school was very progressive in its ideals.
galefan2004
@Republican: I’m not offended. The truth is, I have a very sorted life when it comes to my sexuality. I came out at 18, then my family got me to go back in till about 1-2 years ago. I’m 30 now, and this is the first time in my life where I have embraced my sexuality head on. I am learning more and more what it means to be a gay man every day, and I am very proud of who I am and who I am becoming. However, most of my language is shifting, and so is a LOT of my views. I used to be much more conservative than I am now on a lot of issues, and I even almost voted for McCain myself. Actually, Obama didn’t win my vote, Mccain lost it, and I worked side by side with Obama campaign staff (I worked to get my local US Congressman elected) and I still didn’t want to vote Obama. What really did it for me in the end is when that woman stood up and called Barac Obama a Muslim and McCain corrected her and called Obama a good Christian man. That bothered me, McCain spent millions running adds leading this woman to believe what she said and then he tries to say its not true. That led me to believe he either was a liar or senile (or both), and that cost him my vote.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
I don’t care for Rousseau and Locke with regard to their political/legal/ethical theories. Aside from a few arguments, they were wrong almost all of the time. Locke has more to say in his theory of perception.
Hobbes is not a good example of a natural law theorist; though the ruler derived his power divinely. Hume is a much better example of a philosopher I’d refer to in this matter, being both “objective” and “subjective” at the same time; as much a natural law theorist as a legal positivist.
I still don’t see an argument…
strumpetwindsock
@galefan2004:
I did thanks.
I was in Winnipeg, actually. Home of the first openly gay mayor in North America.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Well no, I didn’t think we were having an argument either.
I thought we were arguing similar positions on this thread until you implied that the concept of innate rights was tainted by association with religious people.
(and you haven’t said whether you agree with Tim in SF about exclusively American rights).
Or perhaps it’s just the fact I am the one making the statement.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
..and aside from the role of government, the two philosophers did agree on the concept of natural law WRT to the equality of people.
Joanaroo
Excuse me, Republican, but I am one of those “old straight women who sometimes write on here.”. For one thing, I respect the LGBT community and would not tell anyone how to speak, act, dress, who to love, whether you could marry, etc. I feel the LGBT community should have equal human rights. The rigid straight who hates gays will do that no matter what because alot of straights have their own heads up their asses!
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Which two philosophers? You mentioned three. Locke did not believe in the equality of people, or cultures, or civlizations (re: argument for ownership). Innate rights are tricky, because one must first get around to what we mean by innate rights. As I said, with respect to specific laws/cultures, I’m a positivist, but about the overall similarity in bodies of law insofar as they are meant to resolve conflicting interests and enable people to pursue their preference satisfaction, I think that reflects an innate biological drive that is evolved. Thus, no “law” or “right” exists independently of human beings and societies, but bodies of laws, rights, and certain conventions are derived from the species: evolved to facilitate social interaction within a large scale society. Look up Hume’s distinction between natural and artificial virtues.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
If you believe positive law trumps natural law when it comes to human rights I disagree with you. While not everyone agrees with it, natural law has been an accepted idea since aristotle. Locke’s theory of property rights doesn’t undercut them.
It may have taken developed societies to codify our body of inalienable human rights, but they are built on the foundation that we have rights that can neither be granted nor removed by any government.
I know some people like Kenneth Starr might argue otherwise.
But before we go down this rabbit hole I am still wondering what might fit the definition of an “american human right” which other human beings do not deserve. Call me an idealist, but I was under the assumption we were all trying to help each other.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK: ..and excuse me. I meant Hobbes and Locke.
TANK
If you believe positive law trumps natural law when it comes to human rights I disagree with you.
There’s only one law: the utility that a law promotes. That’s it. A law is only as good as the purpose it serves, and only justified in serving that purpose when it assists people in resolving conflicts that result from pursuit of preferences. YOu keep talking about this “natural law”…well, that can mean a lot of things. Do you mean god’s decree? What do you mean? Innate? Inborn? Genetic right to free speech? I don’t think there’s a free speech gene.
While not everyone agrees with it, natural law has been an accepted idea since aristotle. Locke’s theory of property rights doesn’t undercut them.
Undercut natural law theory? WTF are you talking about? Oy…don’t talk about aristotle; it’s annoying. Locke believed that laws were justified, transitively, by the light of the divine. The point is that Locke did not believe all people were equal and entitled to equal resources, etc. His arguments galvanized colonialism, and a host of atrocities inflicted upon indigenous peoples. As I said, his metaphysical theories are of much more value than his political theories. HUME is superior to all of the philosophers you’ve mentioned (a lot moreso than locke and rousseau; less so than hobbes).
It may have taken developed societies to codify our body of inalienable human rights, but they are built on the foundation that we have rights that can neither be granted nor removed by any government.
Well, apparently they can and are. There’s only one RIGHT and ONE LAW and all laws are measured against it…that’s why they come and they go. Ethics trumps social law; and the two are forever distinct.
TANK
HObbes was a contractualist. I’m sick of this conversation. Anyway, this dweeb who wrote this opinion piece is wrong.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
I’m sick of this conversation
Well at least we agree on that.
And since Tim seems to have taken off without explaining why being an American should entitle anyone to a set of inalienable rights that the rest of us are not worthy of, I’m off too.
galefan2004
I got to say, you guys completely lost me for the last 20-30 posts. I personally hate philosophy. Its all watered down biblical teaching anyways. There was a point where you could give me almost any philosophical thought and I could find you the biblical passage it came directly from. The only philosophy class I could actually manage to get through in college focused much more on valid arguments than actual philosophy.
TANK
Its all watered down biblical teaching anyways.
You don’t know what philosophy is…philosophy predates the bible, for example. Philosophy is about argument, and logic. It’s not very popular…gotta think hard about things.
schlukitz
@TANK:
The man who wrote this opinion piece is a heterosexual who is obviously stuck in the sixties and who thinks that this is the perfect outfit for a hot, sultry, southern, mid-July day.
“As natty as a movie star in a gray wool suit and pressed white shirt, his eyes remain calm beneath the shade of a wide-brimmed fedora. It’s a gentleman’s outfit”
Sounds like something out of of a Harlequin novel, doesn’t it?
He’s almost fifty years out of date years and needs to get with the times. Even Harvey Milk wore jeans and T-shirts in many of his public appearances.
I took my first trans-Atlantic flight to Paris in the mid-sixties. Everyone on the plane was wearing a suit, a white shirt and a tie, myself included. I arrived at Orly rumpled and disheveled and looking like I had slept in my clothes, which in fact, I had.
Can you imagine dressing like that on a flight to Europe in this day and age? People would stare at you like you lke you were out of your mind.
galefan2004
@TANK: http://www.adherents.com/adh_phil.html http://www.gotquestions.org/when-Bible-written.html
Apparently, you don’t know what the bible is because the father of philosophy came after the books of the bible that laid down his ideas. He was just well studied for that time and the bible was just one of the many books he got ideas from. However, when I said I didn’t like philosophy, I mean dates and times and all that jazz. When it is all said and done, it is nothing more than common sense for anyone with a brain and they can all arrive at the same conclusions without even having a freaking clue who Socrates or Locke or any other philosopher even is.
macscruff
@schlukitz: I dont give a fuck what you think personally and why bite your tongue. What did I call you? I was referring to what you would appear to be dressed in a bibical coat. You on the other had have called me: morally correct, homo-apologetic, hetereo-ass-kissy types; bible thumping.
You’re way off the mark. You mentioned some bible story. Personally I don’t think Jesus ever existed, he is a myth along the lines of Mithra and Horus. Just another damned story to control people.
Ive never hidden the fact I am gay.
You need to open your eyes a little bit; learn to listen, and then STFU.
THIS WHOLE POST IS MAKING ME FEEL HOMOPHOBIC, AND I AM OPENLY GAY!
TANK
@galefan2004:
The father of philosophy? Hmmmmmmmmmm. Who is the father of philosophy? The father of modern philosophy is descartes…he’s not the father of philosophy, though…that’s a suspicious title… Most of descartes doesn’t deal with the philosophy of religion, either.
Look, Plato was not a christian. predated Jesus’s life and teachings and was a lot smarter than the bible people and jesus combined (assuming jesus even existed)… Parmenides was not a christian nor a jew (the presocratics weren’t monotheistic worshippers, either). The republic isn’t watered down bible teachings. Nor is anything Aristotle wrote. If anything, the bible is watered down philosophy…for example, really horrendously primitive virtue ethics that Aristotle would laugh at and deride along with most of his contemporaries with devastating arguments. There were christian philosophers who dealt primarily with the philosophy of religion, but they aren’t even the majority of them (medieval philosophers). And philosophers throughout history disagreed with each other, and are said to employ “common sense” and common sense isn’t always what is needed. Common sense leads to disagreements, too. Common sense ain’t so common…and sometimes, it’s not all that sensible.
I doubt you’ll find much in the bible in the writings of Hume…Wittgenstein, Russell, Moore, Carnap, Quine, Davidson, Austin, Putnam, Dummett, Pig/Rorty…or the continentals, either. Most of philosophy has nothing to do with the bible or christianity, or god. IN fact, the philosophy of religion is just one sub topic, actually not even a pure topic (philosophy is epistemology, metaphysics–what ‘to exist’ means–philosophy of language, logic, ethics, phil of mathematics, philosophy of mind). Even the bulk of Locke, Hobbes, Hume…nothing to do with watered down bible verses (Hume was an atheist, for example and introduced some pretty devastating arguments against religion). It’s a common meme that philosophy=religion…but I just don’t see anyone who’s ever read philosophy or knows anything about it who says such things. Most philosophers (people who make their money off of teaching philosophy and doing it) are atheists…and unconcerned atheists at that–meaning that they don’t even think about god in doing philosophy. They don’t work in that area.
TANK
@TANK:
ANd I apologize for the aside, but it’s unforgivably ignorant that such drivelous mischaracterization is introduced…anywhere.
schlukitz
@TANK:
“Philosophy is about argument, and logic. It’s not very popular…gotta think hard about things.”
Amen! That’s why the bible is so popular with so many people. It does all the thinking for you. LOL
schlukitz
@macscruff:
“You’re way off the mark. You mentioned some bible story. Personally I don’t think Jesus ever existed, he is a myth along the lines of Mithra and Horus. Just another damned story to control people.”
Personally, I don’t think Jesus ever existed either. There is no empirical evidence that he did. And you are right. Jesus is just another damned story to control people. On those two points, we agree totally.
I used the biblical story merely as a figure of speech to illustrate the point that we are not required to march in step, and think, act and dress in accordance with the dictates of the majority. We should all feel free to express ourselves and be wh we are. Hence, the comparison between having to wear a dull, drab gray overcoat, as opposed to wearing a coat of many colors.
Obviously, the metaphor flew right over your head. Had you been able to comprehend it, there would have been absolutely no reason for you to say “Unless youre a complete nutcase you know what goes over the line in terms of being taken seriously and being a joke.”
In other words, check your own stupidity before you attempt to call others on what you perceive to be their stupidity.
macscruff
@schlukitz: You are laughable, however I am not laughing but feeling sorry for us at this point.
Yeah youre right, your metaphor flew right over my head and you right along with it.
The only point Im simply trying to make; A Pride parade should be a public view on how we as a community are progressing and making ourselves visible while maintaining some dignity and integrity.
Whatever else kind of parade or festival is open for it’s context. There is a time and place for it.
So schlukitz, just who the hell are you today? If youre living in a fantasy world then it’s time to grow up. Going to work in a leather harness? I can’t stand 30, 40, 50 year old boys.
I cant stand to see the silly flaming queen character on TV any longer, that is not funny anymore when so many of us are being beaten and killed for who we are, the numbers of anti-gay attacks are growing and the hate is building.
I can assure you, if gay marriage becomes federally accepted, we had better grow some balls and drop the fairy wings.
A time will come though when grown men stop living out a fantasy and realize the world around them has accepted the gay community and we are a part of the real world. It is only then, when you can stand on the shoulders of the men who have fought the stereotypes you propagate and have won, then you will have no need to showcase yourself or prove to the world that you are a grown man who lives outside of reality.
So go ahead and show your freak, I am so tired of this debate.
GodLovesUs
I agree with this post. Do you know what pple think when they see gay men with adolescent boys? Paedophilia. People still assume incorrectly that everytime a boy is sodomised the perpetuator is a gay man. Even though this has been proven time and time again as false.
Fear is that powerful. It festers in the mind and clouds judgement. We all know this so lets not act dumb. You are marching down the street with half naked men, naked men, me
n dressed in woman’s clothes and leather bears and you expect any one who sees this spectacle to take you seriously as a group that deserves respect and rights.
The Gay culture is represented as a promiscous one. A flamboyant AIDS infested den of iniquity to religious groups, family groups and any group that may decide to add their support to your cause.
You are in the position of disadvantage here and u cannot dictate the terms of how people will accept you.
BTW, people who do not support homosexuality are doing as a resul of their religious beliefs and cannot be called bigots. Bigots are pple who are hate filled. I do not hate anyone gay or otherwise..as a xtian i cannot be like so called religious hypocrites and say something is right when it is wrong.
macscruff
@GodLovesUs: I simply cannot resist…
* Please see the irony in this post *
I also agree with the original post. But I have to admit I am a bigot, I hate Christians. Why? because THEY hate me.
“They” just who are “THEY”? THEY are the people I see on TV and the obvious outspoken ones who shake their bible and tell me I am going to hell. THEY are the ones who protest funerals and proclaim they know whats best for our country. THEY try to exorcise the gay demons out of people.
I hate THEM.
Yet, how many people who are Christians do I not see in a public arena. How many might actually be great loving people? I dont know and honestly I am so sick of the bible being shoved down my throat, I dont care about those people. Every time I turn around it’s Jesus this, and Jesus that. I wish we could round them up and send them all off to some island and get rid of them and their crosses.
Wait, did I just say that? Why? My mother is Christian, I dont hate her. Perhaps I know a good Christian that isnt like what the pubic shows or the ones on soap boxes screaming for me to repent. (Ahh, there is where it comes in, the reasoning) Not all Christians are bad hate filled screaming preachers. Well, its too bad for Mom because I still have my opinion. Send in the Lions!
* Please see the irony in this post *
vernonvanderbilt
@GodLovesUs: News flash, Bubba…if you don’t believe that GLBT people should be treated like human beings, if you believe that the religious beliefs of one section of the community should take precedence over equality in a secular system where not everyone shares said beliefs, if you have to lie to yourself and say that your hatred is “love” just so you can justify your ludicrous and primitive worldview, you are a bigot. You can’t paint spots on a sheep and call it a leopard.
Now seriously, go find someone else to harass.
Cunt.
schlukitz
@macscruff:
Can you not see, with your castigation of certain members of the LGBT community, how you are supporting and giving ammunition to people like GodLovesUs?
President Zapetero of Spain could not have stated it any better when he said “A decent society does not humiliate any of it’s members.”
That also applies to how we gays treat our own as well.
Are we LGBT people a decent society, or are we just as bad as the Christers who never miss an opportunity to humiliate us?
Food for thought.