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  The New Negatives?

STUDY: Undetectable Guys Do Not Transmit HIV To Negative Sex Partners

HomokissA two-year study gives scientific credence to what many have long suspected: HIV positive guys who are on treatment and have an undetectable viral load are not giving HIV to their partners, not matter how hard they try. The study strengthens the belief that “treatment as prevention” is one of the most effective ways to stop new infections.

The two-year study, presented at the Conferences on Retroviruses and Opportunistic Infections this week, showed as low a risk of infection as you can find in research. As reported by AIDSMap:

When asked what the study tells us about the chance of someone with an undetectable viral load  transmitting HIV, presenter Alison Rodger said: “Our best estimate is it’s zero.”

Participants in the study were couples, gay and straight, in which one partner had HIV and the other did not. They were selected because they had sex without condoms at least some of the time, and the negative partner was not on PrEP (taking the drug Truvada to prevent infection).

The couples kept themselves very busy sexing it up in the name of science: the study reported 16,400 sexual acts among the gay couples, including being on top, being on bottom, oral sex, and plenty of “ejaculate” on and in the bodies of participants (imagine conducting those interviews with the couples).

None of the negative subjects were infected by their positive partners, although a few negative partners got infected by someone outside the relationship, which was determined by genetic testing of the HIV strain. Those guys then had some explaining to do, don’t you think? Or, perhaps, not.

Of course, you have to know if you’re positive in the first place for treatment to make a difference. At least 20% of those with HIV in the U.S. don’t know they have it. “The keys to keeping everyone healthy is for you to be regularly tested for HIV, and if you are positive, to take advantage of effective treatments,” said Raymond C. Martins, M.D., of Whitman-Walker Health in Washington, DC. “For gay men who are negative, please remember that the higher risk comes from those men who do not know their HIV status and might in fact have high levels of infectious virus.”

The jury is still out on whether or not studies like this will affect HIV stigma, but one thing is certain: our friends with HIV who are on successful treatment are definitely doing their part to stay healthy — and protect the rest of us, too.

Way to go, poz dudes.

By:           Mark King
On:           Mar 5, 2014
Tagged: , , , ,

  • 155 Comments
    • Apparatus
      Apparatus

      Oh god. I’m gonna grab a lawn chair and a Lime-A-Rita and just sit back and watch these comments roll in.

      Mar 5, 2014 at 6:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DarkZephyr
      DarkZephyr

      Yeah I won’t be taking any chances. Thanks anyway!

      Mar 5, 2014 at 7:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mdterp01
      Mdterp01

      Sorry but I don’t like terms like “undetectable”. A friend of mine says he is undetectable but WTF is that and how long does it last? Are you undetectable one week and then detectable the next? You only really know when you have that particular viral load tested. It doesn’t mean you aren’t HIV+ anymore. If my partner was HIV+ and tried to come to me with some “I’m undetectable” mess he still wouldn’t be having sex with me bareback.

      I don’t know. I hope this term isn’t going to give people a false sense of security that they can go back to engaging in risky behavior. It is great that knowing one’s status and diligent treatment means you can get to this “undetectable” level, but I’m not going to rely on studies when it comes to my own health. I just get the feeling these guys are going to try and use this to engage in some risky behaviors with their sexual partners.

      Mar 5, 2014 at 7:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • j.martinez53
      j.martinez53

      @Mdterp01: Usually when you are undetectable you remain undetectable as long as you adhere to your medication regime. The term undetectable refers to how many copies of the virus is detected in one milliliter of blood which is fewer than 50. When the copies of HIV cannot be detected by standard viral load tests, an HIV person is said to have an “undetectable viral load.” I have been undetectable for 11 years and still remain to this date, which makes it highly unlikely to infect my partner. HIV transmission is reduced by 92 to 96%, which means that there is still a slight risk of transmission, but very improbable. I have not infected my partner in the 10 1/2 years that we have been together and we have had unprotected sex thru the majority of our relationship.

      Mar 5, 2014 at 7:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • southernpup
      southernpup

      There was a study that was did in Europe about 4 years ago that came up with the same results. I asked my Doctor about it and she told me yes it was true, that an undetectable person was highly unlikely to infect their partner. I asked her what the percent of not being able to infect was and she said it was about 95 to 97%, I asked her how safe this was and she informed me that being undetectable that the risk using a condom or not was the same percent. I then asked her so if I use a condom the percent is the same as me not using one and being undetectable, and she said yes, and being undetectable was probable safer, as the person knew you where undetectable, where as you have guys saying they are Neg, and are not that cause the most damage.

      Mar 5, 2014 at 7:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mdterp01
      Mdterp01

      @j.martinez53:

      Thats amazing for you and your partner and I’m happy for the both of you, but “highly unlikely” and “very improbable” isn’t impossible and 96% isn’t 100%. There is someone out there who will become infected from someone who tells them that they are at an undetecable level and risk is very low. Someone will be that 1 out of a million or whatever chance and I would just never take the risk that it would be me. So I would have to tell my partner to strap it on or I’d be strapping it on.

      I am also very untrusting so I realize that I may be in the minority in feeling this way. It took FOREVER for me to get to the point where my current partner and I engaged in bareback sex; so much so that it almost resulted in us breaking up because he was insulted I didn’t trust him. I mean I know people who are doing bareback at the 6 month mark. 6 months?!!! That ain’t sh*t. It took me 2 years to get to the point to finally engage in bareback with him because my attitude is that unless I can watch your ass 24 hours a day I really don’t know what you are up to, and I still find myself praying that he is being honest and not cheating on me. When multiple studies come out that use language like IMPOSSIBLE and ZERO percent chance then I or he can ditch the condom.

      Mar 5, 2014 at 8:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Merv
      Merv

      This might be useful if there were a home test for undetectability. Otherwise, your HIV status becomes the test for detectability, and who wants that?

      Besides, if undetectability provides 97% protection and condoms provide 97% protection then in combination they provide 99.9% protection, which is a much better number.

      Mar 5, 2014 at 8:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • nandaric
      nandaric

      @Merv: You aren’t good at math are you? That isn’t how it works.

      Mar 5, 2014 at 8:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • tada-no
      tada-no

      This is liberating news for couples in a relationship! But I wouldn’t play Mr. scientist with casual barebacking partners you meet on apps. First, most guys that infect others are not aware of their real HIV status–meaning they don’t test as often as they confidently believe to be “clean.” And with those that are positive, you still don’t know about their HIV med intake history. A few years back, there was a New York Times article about how HIV patients struggle to afford meds when so many programs were being cut and insurance companies not wanting to cover full regimens. Some people were forced to ration and some don’t stay on recommended regimens consistently.

      Mar 5, 2014 at 8:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Merv
      Merv

      @nandaric: Yes, Einstein, that’s exactly how it works. (1 – .03*.03)*100 = 99.91%

      Mar 5, 2014 at 9:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mdterp01
      Mdterp01

      @tada-no:

      Great points. Knowing someone’s health history and treatment behaviors is very important. A negative person should not be considering this with a guy who says they are undetectable and they just met casually off the internet or in some damn bar.

      @Merv:

      I’m so bad at math so I was wondering myself how that worked but damn sure wasn’t going to ask and make myself look stupid. Thanks for showing that work. I would’ve never got that. I have to take the GRE later this year because I’m going to school for my doctorate and I am DREADING the math section.

      Mar 5, 2014 at 9:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mikah
      Mikah

      That’s good to know.People in healthy,commited,honest relationships should be able to enjoy sex without restrictions.As for me, I’m much too paranoid.Condoms are my friend.Be safe people.

      Mar 5, 2014 at 10:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • EMoore1013
      EMoore1013

      The article states, “Nearly half of those with HIV don’t know they have it.” This statement is grossly inaccurate.

      While in some sub-populations (e.g., African-American men who have sex with men under age 25) the undiagnosed prevalence rate may be as high as 50%, the rate for the entire U.S. population is actually 20%.

      It was very simple to do a quick search on “CDC undiagnosed HIV” and get the following website as the very first result:
      http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/su6102a10.htm

      You can do better.

      Mar 5, 2014 at 10:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Adam Schmidt
      Adam Schmidt

      @Mdterp01: If you read the study, you’ll find that they followed roughly 1100 couples (about 40% were gay) where one partner was HIV positive and the other negative. To qualify to be part of the study, they had to not use PEP or PREP, not use condoms, and the HIV positive partner had to be undetectable for the entire duration of the study. During the two years of the study, they estimate that the couples had roughly 30,000 cases of unprotected sex. And NOT ONE case where the HIV negative partner contracted HIV from their HIV positive partner.

      The study will continue on until 2017 but at this time, they’re estimating that the chance of contracting HIV from an undetectable positive partner is between 96 and 98% reduced from the normal possibility when engaging in unprotected sex with an HIV positive partner. So yeah, not zero. But then they haven’t identified one single case where an undetectable positive individual has transmitted the disease to someone who is negative.

      Mar 5, 2014 at 10:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • erikwm
      erikwm

      Nope.

      Still won’t do it.

      Mar 5, 2014 at 11:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Goforit
      Goforit

      @Mdterp01: Unfortunately I must agree with you. 96% is not good enough for me either. But in the interest of accuracy, your “1 in a million of whatever” comment is misleading. 96% translates to 4 out of every 100. How many times are any one of us getting laid in any given year? Do the math guys.

      Mar 5, 2014 at 11:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      The purpose of this study, the Swiss study and others like this is not to encourage ANYONE to do anything he does not want to do. The point is to give information to increase the level of knowledge about HIV and being undetectable, get guys to have a REAL and TRUE conversation about sex with their partners and STOP guys from believing that those CLAIMING to be HIV negative actually are. Simple.

      Those NEG tests, that you clutch like pearls to your chest, are outdated as soon as you get them, but guys that are undet can prove it and are more likely to be telling the truth. Too many of you would rather find comfort in lies than deal with the truth. I see so many like this in the waiting room everyday at work.

      AS for the 97%, this is the same rate as condoms, so for those that are complaining, I guess you don’t use condoms either with so called “neg guys”. I hope this helps to reduce the level of stigma regarding HIV poz guys, but I have been gay long enough to know that nothing is going to change, unless it get’s even worse.

      To all my poz brothers, please don’t let all of the hatred get, or keep you down. You deserve love and sex, no matter what the haters say. STAY STRONG, and LIVE LONG!

      Mar 6, 2014 at 12:10 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • poochie
      poochie

      “imagine conducting those interviews with the couples” – why did you write this

      Mar 6, 2014 at 12:33 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mdterp01
      Mdterp01

      @Goforit:

      See…I told you I was bad in math. Now that you put it like that its even more sobering.

      @Adam Schmidt:

      Again, very high statistics and very low probability, but I’m looking for ZERO chance; ZERO, ZILCH, NADA!!!! If my partner was HIV+ (and I have dated guys who were HIV+) and told me that he was undetectable I would celebrate his good health, but it still wouldn’t change the fact that there’s no screwing without condoms. Just because it hasn’t happened in that study doesn’t mean that it won’t happen. I’m not relying on studies when it comes to the risk of me contracting something that has no cure. I’m just not doing it. My partner and I are negative and get tested every 6 months and don’t use condoms and I still sometimes get anxious that we don’t use condoms. I told him from the beginning that if he ever steps out on me that he better wrap it up because if he brings back anything to me y’all will be reading about me in the paper as the man who killed his dumb ass partner. I don’t think monogamy is natural and I’m a realist in terms of people cheating, and while I told him that doesn’t mean its a pass to cheat, if he does cheat to make sure he wraps it up.

      @pleasemakeitstop:

      Why does it have to be hate and complaining? I would have no problem dating an HIV+ person if my partner and I break up and I get back to the dating scene. But when it comes to my health, I would always be using condoms, even with that undetectable status. I’m not taking the word of some study. There’s people out there who wouldn’t use condoms in this situation and that’s there choice and I say more power to you, but that is not me. Of course HIV+ guys deserve love and sex. Who is trying to insinuate otherwise? With me it would just be with condoms always. This is the kind of thing that would come up very early in the dating process and if he wants to find someone who will bareback with him then he needs to go find that person. I won’t waste your time and you won’t waste any more of mine.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 12:35 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @Mdterp01: I don’t understand why this is an issue for you. If you don’t want to have sex, with or without condoms, with a poz or neg guy, that is your business.

      It has to be about “hate and complaining” when gay guys are poz-phobic and willfully ignorant regarding a disease that effects us, in the western world, most. We should be better than this. We should treat our poz brothers better. It is because of this treatment, that many guys don’t get tested, lie about knowing their status and infect others. This study proves that poz guys are not the enemy or threat, it is those NEG guys, and a culture that allows guys to call poz guys “dirty” and having “death sex”.

      If you don’t want to believe these studies…don’t. There are also people that believe the world is flat and only 7 thousand years old. No one here or in these studies is telling you what to do or how to behave. It is you that is making sure we all know what your stance is, and that NOTHING is going to change it, even though no one is even attempting too.

      And by the way, you say you want 100 percent protection. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Condoms break, men lie and accidents happen. 97% is the best you are going to get. Just please you, and others like you, stop breaking down the very men that stand at your side, or in front of you, in the fight for equal rights and equality. Remember, if it were not for poz guys, we would not have marriage equality. Because of their deaths, we understood the need for marriage protection.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 12:56 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @Goforit: that is not the way science works. NOTHING is 100% accept abstaining from all sexual contact. Condoms are only 97%, and that is when used correctly, which most guys don’t, and then they also break and tear.

      This study clearly states that no one contracted HIV…NO ONE!, so I don’t know what else you want. This is a study, not statistics or variables. If that were the case, and using your logic, condoms should not be considered effective because 3 times out of 100 you will contract HIV.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 1:13 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @Merv: The current home HIV testing kits are the same ones used at the doctors’ office, and just like them, your results are outdated as soon as you get them. They test for HIV anti-bodies, NOT HIV INFECTION, which take 3-4 months to show up. Which means, it can only show that one is “negative” as of 3-4 months ago…not at that moment. You and he, would have to obstain from sex for that same amount of time, then test again, for it to be accurate.

      These test only make fearful guys feel better if their partner is in fact positive, at least 3 months prior. But most guys are infected by “neg” guys, in what we call this WINDOW period, as their viral load is raging and they are most infective.

      This is why I lobbied against these home tests. It gives a false sense of security. But, a home Viral Load kit (which does not exist..yet), would be highly accurate, just like at the doctors’ and tell you someone’s viral load at that time.

      Or we can just take the time to learn about our sexual reality, the medical terms, and begin to have real conversations with our partners instead of relying on outdated, homophobic information based on fear.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 1:25 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • cybertoot
      cybertoot

      @Mdterp01 I love it…a PhD candidate who can think (dare I say) so stupidly. You are the kind of people this information is supposed to help, yet it seems to fall on deaf ears (or a dim mind). You want 100% certainty and NO possibility for infection, yet you are relying on condoms (which are not a 100% fail safe prophylactic). At the same time you will have unsafe sex with your partner who is negative (while contemplating the possibility that he may have unsafe sex and you’d be forced to kill him as a result). If you want absolute 100% certainty then you had better abstain from any risky sex. And you had better also stop having unprotected sex with your partner (though even if you do it is still not 100 % safe). You might also want to stop demanding these absolutes from others (as a lame attempt at debunking valuable research data) when in fact the ideal you speak is neither attainable by you (nor practiced in any meaningful way either) and is just a smoke screen for your own inability to live up to your own fanciful ideal (100% certainty!). It’s unfortunate that it is so often people like you who delude themselves into a false sense of security and end up sero-converting through that small little window (of uncertainty) that they didn’t foresee. Educate yourself and be smart, rather than being played the fool.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 1:29 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Franklin
      Franklin

      @pleasemakeitstop Not to jump in the fray here, but what you are saying is not entire accurate at least where I live. It’s true that the older generation HIV tests have longer window periods. However, some of the latest generation of HIV tests, at least the ones over in Europe do antibody testing along with antigen p24 testing which significantly cuts down the window period to determine infection.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 2:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Franklin
      Franklin

      Also, I’m all for making informed decisions, but there are a few things to consider. Being undetectable and staying that way means adhering to your drug regimen and taking your medication everyday, at the same time each day. People who don’t risk drug resistance and increases in viral load. That means that if someone you were with were to for whatever reason, stop taking their medication then that has the potential to put you at a higher risk.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 2:11 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @Franklin: In the UNITED STATES, which is where I live, along with most of the posters, my statements are true. So, check with our local CDC before you correct me about my country. But, even if what you say is true, the tests are not REAL TIME ACCURATE. There is still a window period and more than enough room for error.

      I also think it interesting how you and others are not dealing with another major issue, being all of those that claim “neg status” as they are the major cause for infection, not those that are HIV poz. If you want to roll the dice with these Neg guys, go on ahead, but nothing I said, or was mentioned in the study forces anyone to do anything.

      The point of the study is to get guys to have true conversations with their sexual partners. I know gay don’t want to do that type of work, or think about their full lives, outside of crying and moaning about their “health” as if they have no hand in what transpires, but this is our reality. You are not a victim, but a full participant.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 2:21 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @Franklin: This is when guys should have conversations about their partners health status, on both ends. We have an amazing record of getting guys to the undet level and keeping them there, well over 90% from lastest studies. Yes, people stop taking meds, and other issues arise, but why run to fear, when you can ask cogent questions? It is very rare for guys to become resistant to meds or have major spikes in their viral loads, but when one sees a doctor every 3 months, as normal in the states, these issues are quickly corrected. I know fear is the comfort blanket for gay men, but this does not have to stay this way.

      The only person that can truly put you at risk…is you. Do your homework, ask questions and stop trying to make someone else responsible for your health. Most HIV poz guys in the United States are well medicated as we have many ways to pay for the meds and keep guys on them. I am not speaking about homeless people, drug addicts or others with mental illness. I mean the average gay guy.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 2:29 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ttzach
      ttzach

      @cybertoot: Using a condom when the guy is undetectable DOES greatly reduce the risk. It’s similar to a woman on birth control and also using a condom. Or two step verification for those who are into tech. Nobody should be shamed for having HIV. But being cautious doesn’t mean you are ignorant. @pleasemakeitstop:
      Most people infected by HIV are from third world countries and are heterosexual. People in the western world, still die even on treatment. This disease is far from being cured, and people should be cautious. However, people should have safe sex because of other STD’s as well. It seems to be a western thing, that getting a disease is ok because there is a treatment for it. But how about not getting it in the first place. Prevention is the best cure.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 2:30 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @ttzach: Neither I, nor the doctors in the study, are advocating for one to become HIV positive. Please read the study. It states the opposite, that being undet helps keep partners negative.

      It is very rare for one in the western world to die of HIV or from meds, this is a myth. Yes, guys do die of AIDS but that is usually when they go undiagnosed and seek medical care late in the process. I never said there was a cure, the study just speaks to the great effectiveness of these meds to keep neg guys neg when having natural sex with a properly treated poz guy. Stop making things up.

      There is no such thing as safe sex. If you want that, you need to stop having sex with anyone, at anytime. (I wonder why gays don’t push that agenda?) Condoms do not protect against most STD’s, including Hep A/B/C, syphiphilis and even herpes. So, this magic bullet called a condom fails gays more often than not.

      Knowledge is the best cure, not fear or lies.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 2:39 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • seaguy
      seaguy

      This is good news. There will always be those who are not going to believe this news and that is their deal.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 5:59 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stefano
      Stefano

      @pleasemakeitstop : “Knowledge is the best cure, not fear or lies.” absolutly ! Knowledge ! So get tested guys !

      Mar 6, 2014 at 7:14 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mark
      Mark · Queerty Editor

      @EMoore1013: You’re right. The piece has been corrected.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 7:28 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jonty Coppersmith
      Jonty Coppersmith

      @pleasemakeitstop:
      It is not all that rare for HIV positive people in the western world to die of HIV related conditions. These medications when taken chronically are associated with a high risk of heart disease, possibly diabetes, etc. I’ve personally known two who died of medication related issues. In addition to that, simply being HIV positive carries an increased risk of lymphoma, leukemia, and other cancers including anal,oral.
      This is not an illness where you can just take the meds and expect to necessarily live a normal life span. Many do, but some don’t.
      Those advocating caution are correct. Refusing to have unsafe sex with someone is not hateful. It is wise, but everyone must choose for himself how to conduct his own life. As has been pointed out, it is not just HIV that people need to be concerned about. Syphilis, gonorrhea are still out there and are becoming increasingly resistant to antibiotics. HPV is a big one that is causing rapidly increasing rates of cancer in gay men.
      It is wise to not have sex with strangers and to limit the number of sex partners.
      This is an encouraging development, but I really hope it doesn’t lead people to think they can just go back to behaving as guys did pre-HIV.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 7:36 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @Jonty Coppersmith: YOu are wrong and you know it. This is 2014, please cite your evidence. You can have your own opinions but not your own facts.

      It is very very rare for someone to die from complications from HIV medications. Yes, some must take other medications to counter act some issues like high collesteral, but many Americans already have it, and it is not known if the poz guy would have needed those meds anyway. HIV meds have brough guys back from the brink of death, and this is a good thing.

      You siting a few exceptions does not make a rule. I have a friend that died in a Volvo, does that make all cars unsafe, and that we should not drive. Anticdotal evidence is useless in a world of science and studies. Eating red meat, drinking, smoking, living in a big city and even walking can increase your chances of getting cancer, or killed by a car, so we should stop doing that things too? Properly medicated, guys are not at a higher rate to contract ANY cancer, if that were true, poz guys would all be on chemo. The meds give guys the same life expectancy of a neg person. Your statements fuel hatred and fear.

      This study was written to assuage concerns for people that CHOOSE to not use condoms when in sero-discordant sexual relationships. If you don’t want to be one….don’t. What does this study have to do with you? Who asked you to change anything about your sexual behaviours? This is where the hate continues. This mock outrage that your condoms are being stripped of your dick.

      I work in the field of HIV/AIDS, and have done so for over 22 year. I have done field research, written national policy and even educate on the illness. I will take my FACTS against your STORIES, any day of the week. No one is forcing anyone to do anything, get that through your scared head. And as for true information, I have over 30 personal friends on meds for almost 20 years, with no side effects. Deal with it!

      And as far as I can read, NO ONE IS ADVOCATING for guys to stop using condoms, and your tired usage of this mantra is fooling no one. The point of the study and what I am saying is that this is a tool to foster communitcation and understanding, but most of all to see that getting tested and knowing your, and your partners status is good, and may lead to wonderful things. Why you need fear is your deal. Stop spreading it.

      And finally, condoms are not a cure all. I was the one who said, that most other STD’s CAN be passed while using condoms, including HPV, which is why there are vaccines. Gonorrhea can be contracted orally, why aren’t you yelling for guys to use condoms while sucking dick?

      You may call it caution, but we all understand it is fear mongering. In the real world we should all practice caution in performing most activities, but we don’t. This study proves that you can make slip ups,, and mistakes, or decide to not use condoms…and the world won’t end, if you understand your status and that of your partner.

      What is hateful is the poz-phobic view many gays have, as if being negative is a virtue. Stating “clean, UB2, is hateful. Have sex with whom ever you chose, and how ever, I don’t care, but stop selling outdated fears to guys that need real time, and real world information.

      All of the couples in the study, were in long term committed relationships. Where are you getting anything about sex with strangers? Oh, yea, you made it up to scare people.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 8:38 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kieru
      Kieru

      This is great news; not because it allows people to ride their HIV+ partner bareback (that’s just stupid) – but because it provides some reassurance when an accident happens.

      The problem though, is that “undetectable” can vary… quite wildly. More sophisticated equipment can detect much smaller viral loads. In theory you could get a blood panel checkup at your GP and get an undetectable reading, but that same blood sample sent elsewhere could show X-per million. I would be curious to know what the threshold for this study was… what the limits their equipment could detect so we have a baseline for what “undetectable” means.

      But the studies primary goal is absolutely spot-on. Treatment as prevention is the best way to ensure the eradication of HIV at this stage. Unfortunately most HIV infections are through people unaware of their condition so…

      Mar 6, 2014 at 8:38 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @Kieru: as j.martiinez53 stated: Undetectable is when the viral load is below 50 copies per mill. This is very old HIV science, at least 20 years. It can not vary. What does vary is one’s T-Cell count. This study states, they used the higher, more cost efficient (read:cheaper) test of 200 mill per. So even if there were variations, this study corrected for it. The wide variation you speak of NEVER happens. But it has happened, to a much lesser extent with T-cell counts, from one lab to the next. You would know this if you read the full study and not relied on Queerity to do your homework.

      Now, in all honesty, if a guy is not taking his meds over a long period of time, usually due to drug and alcohol usage, unstable housing or mental state, there may be “spikes” in his viral load. During this time he would not be undetectable if it rises over the 200 number. Again, this is information to help guys make cogent decisions after communicating with their partner(s).

      If one chooses to have natural sex, because bareback is a stupid term, with an hiv positive partner, or many partners, that are undetectable, this study shows just how nominal his risk is…if any, why do you call it stupid? That was the point of the study. No ONE in the study contracted HIV. What more do you want?

      Testing, plus treatment, equals prevention. Scare tacticts have not worked for the last 30 years, please let us have some light on this subject without fear, lies or misinformation. This is what we have been fighting for!!!! They finally do a study with gay men and our sexual habits being studied, without homophobia and you people are still not satisified.

      And yes, the silent point of the study, is that poz guys are not the enemy, rather all the guys claiming to be neg when they have not been tested or those tests are outdated, and then not using protection. The authors clearly state this. RIF

      Mar 6, 2014 at 9:00 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mdterp01
      Mdterp01

      @a href=”#comment-810960″>cybertoot:

      Firstly, you are absolutely right in that thwre are no absolutes unless I abstain from sex altogether. Since that won’t be halpening then yes there will always be a degree of risk.

      Secondly, can there ever be an intense discussion on here without someone eventually resorting to being so damn condescending???!! What the hell does my pursuing a PhD have to do with this? I nwver claimed to be any smarter than anyone else and even if I already had a PhD it wouldnt mean I know every damn thing. Bottom line is that we can argue the results of this study (although I want to read the whole thing to find out their whole methodology) but when it comes to how an individual chooses to engage sexually, stay in your damn lane and I’ll stay in mine when it comes to using condoms or not with someone who is undetectable. Its a personal choice and one that shouldn’t be criticized either way.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 9:15 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • nsuviolin
      nsuviolin

      @DarkZephyr: The “chances” are much higher with guys who claim negative because you really don’t know what their status us. But yea, let us know how that works out for you.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 9:31 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @Mdterp01: I am not one to pick up any ones fights, but, and please correct me if I am wrong CYBERTOOT, what he was speaking of was your statements like how you don’t like terms like undetectable, which is a scientific term that one cannot really have an opinion on, and how you want to get a PHD but did not do your homework about this study, but most of all how you are, as you state “untrusting” and allowing this FEELING to intercept knowledge and science. These are not good qualities in a Doctor.

      Yes, you may do as you choose with your body, but we have fought long and hard to get these studies, and for gay men to turn their backs on these FACTS, because they have fear, is a sad thing, but in our Doctors, this is very dangerous indeed.

      This study is not telling anyone to have sex with strangers,or multiple partners (not that these are bad things) stop using condoms, or anything else fear mongers want to say it is doing. It is simply saying that HIV poz guys, when properly medicated and undet have not been shown to transmit this disease.

      Why gays are having an issue with this, I have no idea. Straights have been singing in the streets since these studies came out for them many years ago. I wonder how much of this is internalized homophobia and the feeling like our natural sex must be punished with death. That is why I don’t like terms like barebacking, which was made up to give us guilt. when straights don’t use condoms, its called sex, when we don’t its called barebacking and death sex, even though they get HIV too, other STI’s and even pregnant. Check your mental health status dudes.

      When the cure comes, some of yall are gonna gag. But still not believe it. Sad.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 9:58 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mdterp01
      Mdterp01

      @pleasemakeitstop:

      Oh my god really? I don’t have the damn PhD yet; haven’t even started the program. I’ve also read other articles and there is yet to be uniformity in the medical field when it comes to the term undetectable so yeah I actually can have an opinion on it.

      I am not arguing the validity of this particular study. I am just saying I would still use condoms and I should have just kept it that simple from the beginning.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 10:39 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Andrew
      Andrew

      @Apparatus: This is one of the best comments that I’ve read in a long time. LOL! I thought the same thing.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 10:51 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sportyguy1983
      sportyguy1983

      I wouldn’t take any chances.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 10:57 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @Mdterp01: There you go again. It does not matter if you have a PHD or not, this is simple READING, nothing more. But worst of all, you keep lying!!! Medical science is not conflicted about the defintion of “undetectable”. Just because you are, does not mean that we are. The term is clear and repeated everywhere. If you choose to believe, is your business but please stop spreading lies and fears to your brothers. We have enough of that from the straights.

      Whatever you choose to do with you body, is your choice, but you do not have the right to scare the living shit out of others because you are terrified. Spare us your damage.

      And, the best thing you could have done was read the full study, and then commented on it alone, or done us all a favour and kept you ignorant mouth shut. You added nothing positive, pun intended, to this conversation. Just made more of us have to work to clean up your mess.

      Good luck in school, don’t miss one damn day of classes.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 11:51 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @sportyguy1983: And please point out in the study, or anything written in this comment section where you are being forced to “any chances”. These are your issues and take away from an amazing studies that should change all of our lives for the better as well as, increase testing and medication of those with HIV, and maybe one day, when you gays are done drowning in fear, reduce HIV stigma.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 11:55 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mdterp01
      Mdterp01

      @pleasemakeitstop:

      http://betablog.org/idweek-2013-hiv-prevention-counseling/

      Excuse me. Don’t tell me I’m lying. This article shows there is not uniformity on this subject.

      http://mobile.aidsmap.com/Swiss-statement-that-undetectable-equals-uninfectious-creates-more-controversy-in-Mexico-City/page/1431075

      This one as well. Granted it is an older article but don’t act like I’m pulling from my ass here.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 12:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CCTR
      CCTR

      @pleasemakeitstop: It is sad that some are not even willing to allow their ideas of “safer sex” and “responsible sex” to be expanded to include the combination of “condom-less sex” and “HIV+” in the face of this study and even the recently released PrEP studies. The study is not advocating that people change their sexual behavior but providing more scientific based information on ways in which HIV are not likely to be transmitted.

      I appreciate your comments on this post, Thanks!

      Mar 6, 2014 at 1:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @CCTR: Thank you for the kind words. I don’t usually post on comment boards but I am an HIV policy expert and attorney, who has started a new web site for gay males called, The Gay Male Rights Project. Our mission is to give gay males all the up to date, and accurate health and legal information they need in this world.

      Sites like this, and others, made this necessary as so much misinformation, outdated studies and damn dirty lies circulate the internet. We will be one stop shopping for all of these concerns; from HIV and cancer, to anal and penile care and even mental health.

      We will be going live around gay pride. hope to see you there!

      Mar 6, 2014 at 1:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CCTR
      CCTR

      @Kieru: “This is great news; not because it allows people to ride their HIV+ partner bareback (that’s just stupid) – but because it provides some reassurance when an accident happens.”

      It seems that according to the study people did intentionally ride their partners “bareback” and according to the study the HIV- partners did not test positive as a result.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 1:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @Mdterp01: Outdated information, at this point, when you obviously have access to the internet…is a LIE. Deal with it MR. PHD. Do you home work, stay up to date before you take us down your fox hole.

      Science is moving very fast, catch the train or let others bring you along, but do not push your outdated fear based agenda and expect not to be challenged by those of us that do this work everyday. Ignorance and arrogance are the true killers here.

      Testing + treatment = prevention!

      Mar 6, 2014 at 1:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kieru
      Kieru

      @CCTR: I am aware that this is how the study conducted itself. I would argue that no health professional in their right mind would state (based on this conclusion) that you should consider bareback sex with your HIV+ Undetectable partner to be a risk-free activity.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 1:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • andyj
      andyj

      “”In gay men, you’ve got quite a dramatic rise of new infections starting in the years since treatments became widely available. This means that the combined effect of being less worried [about HIV], and having more virus out there in the population — more people living longer, healthier lives, more likely to be getting laid, with HIV — is outweighing the [beneficial] effects of lower viral load.”- Elizabeth Pisani

      Mar 6, 2014 at 1:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • geekbear
      geekbear

      @Mdterp01: Obviously it is quite clear that you (and those who share your perspective) should really just go f&*k yourself. That’s safest for everyone.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 1:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @Kieru: You may argue that no health professional in their right mind would state that neg guys have NATURAL sex with their undet poz partners, but you would loose that argument, badly. This is exactly what the study is saying…and they are doctors and scientists. Unless you are saying that these professionals are not in their right minds, but you are totally sane and an expert on HIV transmission? Please show your work and how these experts are wrong…I’ll wait.

      Doctors have been saying this around the country for almost 10 years. Many offices in NYC have treatment departments for poz/neg couples so that just this very thing can happen. You may not like these FACTS, but that will not make them untrue.

      You may choose to do what you want, but WE WILL NOT LET YOU STOP THE TRUTH. I will be there every where you, and those like you, continue to spread your fear mongering to help our brothers learn and live the truth.

      This study PROVES that NOT ONE OF THOSE NEG GUYS IN THE STUDY CONTRACTED HIV…get over it!

      Mar 6, 2014 at 2:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mdterp01
      Mdterp01

      @geekbear:

      Thats mature. So because I choose to be one of the ones who would still use condoms that makes me the bad guy?

      Mar 6, 2014 at 2:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mdterp01
      Mdterp01

      @pleasemakeitstop:

      The study proved it will most likely not happen. The study didnt prove it can’t happen.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 2:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @andyj: I am not sure what you are trying to say with this partial, out of context quote. But the truth of the matter is, gay males have created a culture of shame and fear which has caused many to go untested regularly or at all, and while HIV is destroying their immune systems, these same guys are wearing a moral badge of being “neg” when it is not true.

      Yes, we do have much work to do in getting all gay guys tested, and those positive on treatment and undetectable, but people like you make our lives much harder. But you know this already. That is your point for living.

      If you don’t want to believe modern science, that your tax payer dollars, are supporting….don’t. But please STOP spreading FEAR. This is what has caused the death of millions of people, created science-less HIV criminalization laws, and convinced untold numbers of gay men not to get tested. GOOD JOB!

      Mar 6, 2014 at 2:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @Mdterp01: When will you learn how to read? The study said that NOT ONE person in the study became positive from sex with their undet poz partner. You cannot change the facts, but please keep trying.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 2:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @Mdterp01: You are the bad guy because you obviously did not read the study and continue to run your mouth. You are the bad guy because you know many guys are reading these comments and your fear mongering and outdated information (LIES) may be believed as truth. You are pushing our movement back decades, and you know this.

      But worse of all, you are the bad guy because no where in the study or in these comments has anyone said YOU, or anyone, should not use condoms. It simply stated that poz guys that are undet CANNOT transmit this illness. Why do you hate this concept? What is wrong with knowing that meds that I marched, lobbied for and got arrested to make sure hit the market…actually work in keeping guys healthy and their partners as well.

      This is your fear and you are trying to force it on us, and make us defend what we never said. You are the bad guy because you claim to want to get higher education, and we are deadly afraid of what you will do with it.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 2:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ladnek
      ladnek

      @Mdterp01, sounds like the deluded homophobes who are against gay marriage because then it’ll be forced on everyone. You’ve been proven an idiot and yet you still refuse to face the facts. Instead now that your “facts” have been proven wrong, you are now playing the victim acting like posters here are shaming you for using condoms. And you’re getting a PhD? Yikes. A wannabe dr who doesn’t believe in science. You’d be really popular in a red state.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 2:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • andyj
      andyj

      @pleasemakeitstop: That’s pure conjecture. Please show me any example of where criminalization or fear has increased infections. In fact there is plenty of evidence that fear is a powerful motivator. We see it in everything from anti-smoking PSAs to not texting while driving. Even if undetectable poz guys can’t infect neg guys you can’t believe them any more than guys who say they’re neg. They were only undetectable at the last test, same as neg are only neg since their last test. And while someone who’s truly undetectable has a low chance of infecting you, someone who’s truly neg has a 0% chance of infecting you.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 2:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      A slightly off topic question.

      Since the people with undetectable viral loads did not transmit to their partners in any instance.

      Where do you all think all of the new HIV cases among gay males is coming from? Are people not following the regimens, or is it some of the 20% who don’t know they are positive?

      Mar 6, 2014 at 2:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stefano
      Stefano

      @pleasemakeitstop : If you don’t want to believe modern science, that your tax payer dollars, are supporting….don’t. But please STOP spreading FEAR. This is what has caused the death of millions of people, created science-less HIV criminalization laws, and convinced untold numbers of gay men not to get tested. GOOD JOB! Sad, but true.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 2:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mark
      Mark · Queerty Editor

      @Cam: Good question. New infections are the result of positive people not being on treatment (including young black men, where new infections are highest, without sufficient access to healthcare), or from those who believe themselves to be negative but aren’t, and have high levels of HIV in their blood because they are going untreated. Ironically, as this study suggests, the safest bet is a poz person who is on treatment and is undetectable.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 2:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @andyj: Let’s see how fear has worked as a detriment. States with death penalty laws, have the highest rates of murder. Anti-smoking laws, not fear mongering has brought down the numbers. And anti crim laws, are based on outdated science were you are convicted NOT based on the infection of the other party, but solely on the poz person’s knowledge of their status. In effect, if you know your status and don’t tell before sex, even if the other party stays negative…you are found guilty. This is the law across the South, including Florida. In these states, they have the lowest HIV testing rates. (Look back at that part where I said I was a lawyer)

      The criminal justice system is being re-worked because we understand that fear is not a motivating factor to change behaviour, but churches know this too…don’t they. You know you will go to hell for, lying, cheating, stealing and even butt fucking, but you still do it.

      PSA, that work, are based on information and knowledge. Take a look at the 1980’s ones with Nancy Regan and “say no to drugs”. Based on fear…and never worked. Should I go on?

      Yes, humans lie, but that is not the point of the study. But you have made an issue of “neg” guys having 0% chance of infecting one. But, didn’t you say that guys lie. Oh wait, just poz guys?

      Good try though….

      Mar 6, 2014 at 2:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @Mark: thank you Mark!
      Fear is one of the greatest reasons why guys don’t get tested. From Poz-phobi to criminalization laws, we support a culture that encourages guys not to get tested. So many gay men believe strangers when they wave their “neg” status, when they have not recently been tested…or ever. Get tested, get treated!

      As for the Black and Latino communities, with their rising rates, homophobia is still a major factor as well, along with proper access to healthcare and up to information about HIV treatments. In the south studies have shown that black gay men are often told that no medications are available and to go home and take an asprin.

      Finally, in large cities, studies have shown that proper housing is necessary to medication adherance. So many of our young gay males are homeless and without stable resources.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 3:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • andyj
      andyj

      @pleasemakeitstop: my point was that if people are truthful, which you are the one asserting that only poz guys are truthful, then it would be better to go with a neg guy that CANNOT infect you. Nice try though. And you didn’t provide any examples of HIV criminalization increasing HIV rates. It’s not even “HIV criminalization”. It’s perfectly legal to be HIV+ and you even have legal protections that LGBT don’t have. What’s not legal us not not disclose. Even if it has no effect on new infection rates people who were lied to (and omitting that you’re poz is a lie) have a right to justice.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 3:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • andyj
      andyj

      * what’s not legal is to not disclose.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 3:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • andyj
      andyj

      @Mark: ” Ironically, as this study suggests, the safest bet is a poz person who is on treatment and is undetectable.”
      And how do you confirm that? How is it that every poz person is perfectly honest, despite plenty of documented cases of nondisclosure, while every neg is a big question mark? The truth is when someone tells you they are undetectable and perfectly adherent to treatment you have no more reason to believe them than when someone says they’re neg. Poz guys who *SAY* they’re undetectable are absolutely no more safe than neg guys who say their neg.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 3:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BrandoPolo
      BrandoPolo

      @Mdterp01: This issue is obviously very personal for many people. It is for me, since my ex-boyfriend (who is still a friend) was undetectable. Our relationship required a lot of patience, trust, education, and growth. It was worth it.

      I don’t think anyone should be shamed for being uncomfortable having sex with guys who are undetectable, though I have made a different choice. I personally think it’s safer. It’s counter-intuitive, yes, but the fact is no one I know has contracted HIV from a guy who is undetectable. Yet I know a dozen who contracted HIV from guys who reported as negative. Lying or not, we don’t know, but point is they were not being treated and thus were highly contagious. This was enough to tip the scales for me, and this study affirms my suspicion.

      This study is not promoting a false sense of security to me. Those of us who choose to have sex with undetectable men know the 97% risk factor. A bigger false sense of security, to me, is that guys think they’re more secure by having sex with guys who report as negative.

      1. They might be lying, go untreated, and end up more contagious than a known undetectable.
      2. They might not know they’re poz, go untreated, and end up more contagious than a known undetectable.
      3. Condoms are only 97% effective *when used properly which they almost never are*. Condoms should be lubed inside and out. Condoms should be changed every thirty minutes. Condoms should be used during oral sex/foreplay. Condoms should be used with water-based lube only. How many gays actually do this? Whoops.

      #3 is consistently missed by gays. It doesn’t make sense to avoid undetectable guys because sex with them is 97% not 100% and embrace sex with negative guys when even with condoms when that risk is 97% and not 100% assuming you’re actually using condoms properly which you probably aren’t. Abstinence is 100%, sex is not. Pick your poison as you see fit, but don’t think everyone else has a false sense of security when you’re engaging in acts with similar risk factor.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 3:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      “HIV criminalization laws” is a term of art for lawyers and judges. Call your Congress member if you don’t like it.

      If one knows of their HIV status and does not disclose, he will be prosecuted and in most states receive up to 25 years in prison, even with the lack of transmission. If you think this is not a deterent to getting tested, we need to stop this conversation. The only legal defense to this charge is that he did not know his HIV status. That is the ONLY defense! He cannot argue that he told the guy, that the other guy was already poz, or even call witnesses. That is what you call justice?

      All we can do is look at the population of those states and their numbers of testing vs other states. I cannot disprove a negative, and I don’t have to.

      Yes, one should disclose their HIV status, as well as HEP, and any other STD’s. Hell they should say if they are married or have the flu, but no one should spend 25 years in prison when the other party did not convert to HIV positive. Being lied to, or a lie by omission as we say, is not worth 25 years in prison.

      But as I tell others, be careful of the world you want others to live in, because your house will eventually be right next to theirs.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 3:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @andyj: Well, first the study authors said that safest bet is to have sex with a poz undet guy. You know, you can read the study yourself and make life easier on us all.

      yes, people lie, but a poz guy is more likely to see a doctor every 3 months, bc that is how he get’s his meds, and the purpose is to get to undet. If he wants to keep living, that is his purpose. He already is admitting he is poz, which is a HUGE step with guys like you in the world, so why lie about being undet?

      The variables with a “neg” guy are too high. Is he lying and when was the last time he was tested? Poz-phobia gives him a greater reason to lie. Once you know a guy is poz, what is his motivation to say he is undet when he is not, but further, why would he not want to be undet?

      I know this flips your world view all around, all those dirty poz guys are not actually the enemy after all. The virus is coming from inside your house.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 3:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Franklin
      Franklin

      I think both sides of this issue are operating on a lot of trust. I think that if you can agree that it’s a possibility for gay men to claim they are negative when they actually are not, than you can concede the possibility that not every poz man is always compliant with his treatment and even though he may have once been undetectable he might not be at the moment you have sex. No one is trying to demonize anyone. If you have all the facts to make a informed decision go ahead and do it. I think what people are most worried about is having people going around and hooking up with guys they just met and them saying ‘Hey, I’m poz but I’m undetectable so we don’t need to use condoms”. It’s good practice to use condoms when engaging is sex with people who recently have or may in engage in sex with others, undetectable or not. Even still there’s still the possibility of contracting other diseases, and they can increases the risk of contacting HIV. Also, there is still the unknown out there. HIV was circulating in the population for years before it even became aware in the public.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 5:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Franklin
      Franklin

      As for reasons why someone wouldn’t want to be undetectable. Well maybe they are just not very good at remembering to take medications. Maybe they started to feel better and just stopped taking their meds, which does happen btw. Maybe they ran out of money and couldn’t afford treatment. Who knows. As a medical professional I can tell you there are lots of people who don’t comply with medications and medical directives that are in place to keep them alive. Most everyone knows cigarettes will kill them, but people continue to smoke. Diabetics know that diabetes will kill them, but some continue to let their blood sugars get out of control. There are alcoholics with scarred livers that drink themselves to death and HIV positive women who have gotten pregnant and refuse to have any prenatal care or take any medications through their entire pregnancy. Look, nobody is trying to demonize HIV positive people. There are many poz guys that will outlive you and me, with very happy fulfilled lives. But don’t try to make it seem like every single poz guy are is a perfect angel with glowing halos who would never tell a lie. They are human just like everyone else, and people make mistakes.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 5:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • andyj
      andyj

      Note here the part that states: “However, the upper bounds of these confidence intervals varied:
      •For women, vaginal sex with ejaculation: 1.88.
      •For men, vaginal sex: about 1.32.
      •MSM insertive anal sex: about 1.37.
      •MSM receptive anal sex without ejaculation: about 2.5.
      •MSM receptive anal sex with ejaculation: 4, translating into a 10-year risk of about 32%.” So, if I understand correctly, gay men who keep doing this (i.e., condomless receptive anal sex with undetectable poz partners who ejaculate into them) for 10 years stand a 1/3 chance of eventually becoming infected.

      http://www.thebodypro.com/content/73978/zero-hiv-infections-seen-through-condomless-sex-wh.html?ic=700100

      Mar 6, 2014 at 5:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @Franklin: I think many of these guys have 2 major issues.

      1) they need to believe that those that claim to be HIV neg always are, and that it is all those dirty poz guys that are infecting people. This way they can have a high moral view of themselves as better, smarter, more worthy people. The rest are just dirty sluts that got what they deserved. Very right wing of them. This is called internalized homophobia. Natural gay sex must come with a very high price.

      2) they need to believe that condoms are a cure all. This is not true, many STD’s may still be contracted while using condoms. Gonoreaha, herpes and Hep C to name a few. Condoms were made for straights to prevent pregnancy and they have not changed much in decades. But many of these guys, as studies show, abandon condoms if the guy is handsome or claims to be “neg”, while they deride anyone that admits he is poz.

      Gays are lazy and don’t want to do the work. We need to learn that communication is a good thing and that personal responsibility must be our mantra. Take in these studies, read all of the up to date data, and then make decisions based on logic and not fear THAT WORK FOR YOU and YOU ALONE, but most of all STOP with the POZ-phobia!

      Mar 6, 2014 at 5:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Blackceo
      Blackceo

      @Mdterp01:

      I am going to try and rescue u buddy because I think I understand what u are saying but it is coming out all wrong. You should have just stopped at “I would still use condoms” That is all u should have said. It is your choice. The more u talk on blogs and things about subjects like this, the more u are likely to have your thoughts picked apart, and rather obnoxiously. There are clearly people who know more on the subject than u do in terms of the science but u are right in that it is not absolute. But neither are condoms. There could be another study that comes out where there is 1 person who does get infected. It is way too early to be telling people to abandon condoms. Nothing is absolute unless u plan on abstinence from here on out. Since u have a partner it is likely u are not going to do that.

      For me, it is condoms always and I have been with my husband for over 10 years. We are both negative and that is how we both choose to engage sexually. I am like u in terms of “if I can’t watch your ass 24/7″…because I have been burned a few times by men I thought were being up front and honest and ended up cheating. But that is my own issue and I don’t give a damn what anyone else thinks about it, and it should not influence what someone else does. I would just rather be safe than sorry. What are u pursuing your PhD in if I may ask?

      Mar 6, 2014 at 5:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • andyj
      andyj

      Plus, only 25% of HIV+ men have an undetectable viral load. I’ve personally never met a poz person who doesn’t claim they’re undetectable. Where are these 75% that are detectable and disclosing it? I sure as hell have never met one.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 5:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @andyj: You know that you are misinterpreting those numbers. The parts you are leaving out, are that the gay males were much more likely to have sex outside of their relationships, and some did become positive….but from other people. This was proven during gene mapping.

      Also, for some reason you are doing your best to deride this study. I wonder why, do you work for a condom company or the religious right?. If you don’t want to have sex without condoms, don’t. Simple. But I know you will still keep attacking, so here we go again.

      This study will continue on until 2017, as you know, to gauge the long term effects, but your outcomes are just you trying to scare people.

      The researchers,who I am damn sure are much more qualified than you, clearly state that the chances of infection are “zero”. Let it go dude. But please keep yourself wrapped in latex and living in fear, that way we all know who to run from.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 5:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @andyj: This is a lie AndyJ! Over 80$ of guys are undet with HIV in the United States, and that is the total goal of every doctor in the country. Our tax dollars go towards “linkage to care programs” with programs like ADAP and Medicaid paying for med.

      So what are you saying, those in the study where the only guys in America that are undet? You cracked the case Mrs. Fletcher. This is all a ruse to get gay guys to catch HIV and die. Thank you for you work on behalf of gay men in America. What would we do without you? Oh, learn the truth and live happy lives.

      From this point on, when you type, I will keep asking you to prove your bullshit! Show us an up to date data sheet from a REAL medical/government agency that says only 25% of guys are undetectable. I will wait…

      Mar 6, 2014 at 5:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • andyj
      andyj

      The reason I want to “deride this study” is that it’s being touted by poz barebackers with ulterior motives. They just to give neg guys the green light to have bareback sex with them and just take them at their word that they’re undetectable. It has nothing to do with prevention. It’s only concerned with getting poz guys laid.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 5:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @andyj: First off, there is NOTHING wrong with Poz guys getting laid, and the fact that you cannot see that says more about YOU than THEM. I guess you want them tattooed and even jailed? Are the scientist conducting this study in line with these “poz barebackers with ulterior motives”, that only “want to get poz guys laid”? Is the government that funded it, in on this conspiracy too, how about the President? How far up does this conspiracy go? Congress, The girl scouts of America too?

      Second, just because you don’t like the facts, does not make them untrue. If you want to do something positive, which I truly doubt, you should push for all gay males to be tested for HIV and treated if they have it. You should advocate for those to get and maintain treatment and stay undetectable. You could also drop the belief that “neg” guys are moral gods that can do no wrong.

      But, you seem to have no issue with “neg” guys, that have NEVER been tested, or have out dated tests “getting laid” even though ALL of the studies show that they are the ones infecting people. Why are you blaming the wrong group? Why don’t you work to increase knowledge and education about this disease instead of pushing fear?

      Nothing is wrong with sex, and gay sex, when done right is amazing. But you would rather deride facts and grasp at straws. This is an insult to those of us that fought, marched, were arrested, and spent our entire careers making sure these meds exist and actually work for those infected and those they have sex with. But you, you would rather rail against the truth and scare the living shit out of the uneducated.

      And finally, this study was for the many, many of us that have and will have found love in the arms of someone with a different HIV sero status. This study proved what we already knew, that our loved ones are not an enemy in our beds. But you just need to fucking ruin that, don’t you. You just need to harm as many of your brothers as you can with your ignorance, distortions and down right lies. What do you get from this? Finally, we are being studied and good things are coming from it, but you feel the need to piss in the milk.

      I pity you…my HIV positive husband and I pity you!

      Mar 6, 2014 at 5:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TommyRocket
      TommyRocket

      @Mdterp01:

      Positive guys are not out to get you.

      The problem with your reaction is the presumption that HIV positive men are going to “use” this data to try and have bareback sex – as if HIV negative guys aren’t having unprotected sex. Contrary to your defensiveness, poz guys are not out their trying to have unsafe sex with everyone they meet, nor are they trying to convince anyone that studies like this make unprotected sex safe.

      The study shows a radically significant decrease in transmission from the undetectable, infected partner to the uninfected partner.

      Since you obviously know nothing about HIV positive medicine and health care, you should do some reading on what undetectable actually means and maybe expose yourself to some information that would help you become less fearful

      The fact is that both negative and positive guys who are having unsafe sex do it at their own risk since there are a host of diseases OTHER than HIV which can be transmitted through unprotected sex.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 5:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mdterp01
      Mdterp01

      @BrandoPolo:

      Thanks for that response. It makes a lot of sense. I’m definitely not an expert with this (CLEARLY) so I apologize if I talked out of turn or spread false information. What you said makes sense. I just think I allow my personal experiences cloud my judgment sometimes.

      @Blackceo:

      Thanks man I really appreciate that. You are right. I should have just stopped at I would still use condoms. Lesson learned. I will be pursuing a PhD in social welfare policy or policy analysis. Not sure what I want to focus on yet for dissertation, but I am interested in studies on health outcomes of LGBT Black and Latinos and suicidality among the LGBT Black and Latinos. I’m also interested in the link between truancy and the increased risk of delinquent behavior and socioeconomic outcomes of those who were in the foster care population. I need to figure out where I want to concentrate. I am applying to Penn and Columbia so both of those areas would offer a great research population for any of those subjects.

      @TommyRocket:

      No I know they aren’t out to trick me into having condomless sex. I know it’s not some conspiracy. But yeah I was wrong in immediately reaching to the fact that an undetectable guy would be quick to say hey we don’t need condoms now.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 6:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @Mdterp01: I am pleased to read your change in tone. What you say you would like to achieve is my area of expertise, for the last 20 years or so. I live in NYC, went to NYU law and have a masters degree in Public policy. I have worked for the state and federal government in policy specifically to address healthcare issues for LGBT folks but mostly for gay males, and those of colour. While still in law school I worked for The Admin for Childrens Services, so it is good to hear that more guys are looking into doing this work, which is heavily female.

      Luckily for you, the landscape is changing and new opporutnities are on the rise, where others of us had little options.

      I would suggest looking into if you truly need a PHD, or if a Masters degree would be enough. The cost is crazy and sometimes will not do you any better unless you want to teach at university.

      Good luck in your studies and learning to keep an open mind when your brothers are trying to teach, not harm, you.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 6:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mark
      Mark · Queerty Editor

      @andyj: Well, finding out if your partner is undetectable might be one of those things you discuss before having sex. If you don’t trust them with telling you the truth, you might want to rethink your plan. “Knowing” does apply largely to those people whom we know to some degree, even a boyfriend or regular date, as opposed to a random anonymous hookup. But if you’re having drive-through sex with strangers, you’re at high risk to begin with — and should be happier than anyone to hear the news the the poz stranger your banging might not be infectious at all.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 6:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @Mark: Mark, if I was not already married, I would be down on my knees in front of you!

      Mar 6, 2014 at 7:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mdterp01
      Mdterp01

      @pleasemakeitstop:

      Thanks man. (((hugsies))) Yeah I do want to teach at a university so a PhD is necessary if I want to teach full time and get on the tenure track. I also am a licensed social worker and I want to do private practice as well. The PhD is also for the research I want to do in the areas I was mentioning. HIV/AIDS area is definitely something I need to do more research and reading on. It was never an area I focused on because my background is in psychology so I was always more interested in mental health disorders in LGBT Black and Latinos and suicidality in that group.

      Very impressed with the work you have done. Thanks for making such a difference.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 7:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @Mdterp01: there is a proven link between mental health, self esteem and HIV transmission, so these things do over lap. I suggest reaching out to the local NYC HIV/LGBT orgs that work with people of colour, like Gay Men of African Decent. they have great resources and know me. it is a way to contact me if you want to talk, without me putting my contact information on this site. HIV is a tough field to keep on top of as the information is growing everyday.

      Again, good luck and success. There can never be too many good men doing great work!

      Mar 6, 2014 at 7:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @andyj: FAIL! no date on the video (HIV is over 30 years old) and no study to back it up. At best it speaks of ALL poz people in America, not GAY MEN specifically, so irrelevant.

      Interesting that you left out the other portions of the site, like how they claim 1 in 5 don’t know their HIV status, 47% of gay and bi guys report that they don’t use condoms during sex.

      And you went so far as not to mention that it is in connection with the well respected STIGMA PROJECT, which has this new study up on its website and supports it! Are they part of the conspiracy to get poz guys laid too..your own resource?

      good try though. keep it, i love the practice.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 7:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pleasemakeitstop
      pleasemakeitstop

      @pleasemakeitstop: And you dont think it suspicious that it is sponsored by one of the largest HIV medication makers in the world! Gilead is a known liar about facts to get its product out. REALLY, they stated that only 37% of Americans are on anti-retros…lol maybe they meant on theirs.

      They also say that only 25% of AMERICANS, nothing about gay men, who have the highest testing and medication rate of any demographic in the country, have a low viral load. What does that mean? Why didnt they use the accepted term of undetable? All of this is just wrong.

      Statistics is a class offered in most Undergraduate Business Schools, it may help you. But I thank you for the laugh.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 7:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • andyj
      andyj

      @pleasemakeitstop: You make absolutely no sense. You asked for a link showing only 25% of HIV+ MSM are undetectable. I posted a link. Ok so it’s for the population, I doubt that it’s that different for MSM since they are the bulk of the HIV+ population.
      You also continually make straw man arguments. The study isn’t some conspiracy and never said it was. What I am saying is that the study has little real world value in having sex outside a monogamous relationship because there’s 1) no way to know the person is truthful about being undetectable 2) even if the person is truthful about being undetectable that is only from the last test results and there can be blips or they can become unresponsive to meds 3)small risk is not no risk 4) people like this author are claiming that undetectable is safer when negative is safer, if you want to apply that the person claiming to be neg is a question mark you have to apply that to the person claiming to be undetectable also.
      I never said the person claiming to be neg was more reliable. I said it’s the same.
      And I provided the link you asked for if you want to dispute is YOU find a different percentage of undetectable and link it.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 7:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ladnek
      ladnek

      @andyj: You don’t know what you’re talking about. Here are the facts for your SLOW brain: UNDETECTABLE PEOPLE DO NOT SPREAD HIV. It’s only people who don’t know their status because they are afraid of being tested and being outcast by people like yourself. They don’t get medication and their viral load grows to the point it become infectious. All new sexually transmitted infections are from the small majority that refuses to get tested because as GAY people they know the pain of rejection all too well already. If someone is on their meds, they WIL NOT infect you. It is true that an undetectable person MAY go off their meds. Maybe they can’t afford it (if you’re poor, you qualify for health plans! there are even articles of people becoming + on purpose to get access to health benefits), or maybe they grow depressed and trick their mind into accepting giving the drugs up. That’s why if you’re going to have sex with a person , you should know them for a while. If you know an hiv+ undetectatable person, and you ask him to show you his undetectable scores, (every 3 months) he will. If he’s undetectable and goes off his meds, it will still take him a while before he becomes “detectable” again. Here’s another FACT. Most new infections come from the poor black and Latino communities. Does that mean poor black and Latino gay people have more raw sex than white gay people? HELL NO! Everyone in Chelsea/WEHO are fucking raw already on Prep, or aren’t insecure about seeking treatment. The reason rates are higher in black and Latino communities is because those communities are even less tolerant than the white communities are and less likely to seek treatment. People not on treatment= spread of HIV. Therefore rates are HIGHER in communities filled with ignorance. If the stigma is dropped, NO GAY person in the USA will get infected. Why? People won’t be afraid of being tested and seeking treatment (which easily makes them undetectable). If every positive person is on treatment, there will be NO virus to be spread. The ones spreading it are NOT on treatment. Someone who is positive and hasn’t been tested will be LESS likely to get tested after reading posts made by you and your IGNORANT like. Yo are the worst type of hypocrite, because the stones you throw at positive people are the same stones homophobes throw at ALL gay people. Go check yourself.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 8:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • nslbc
      nslbc

      My partner has been undetectable for more than 8 years. We have been together for nearly 4 years and made the decision to have unprotected sex, knowing there was a risk (well before this latest study even began). I was infected by him. Yes, it was a decision we both made so we are the only ones to blame. I would not trust a study saying it’s “safe” to have unprotected sex. People will speed through the article, only read what they want, and then think it’s okay to have unprotected sex with positive partners. It is not safe, trust me, I know from personal experience. I am lucky to have a strong immune system and the disease didn’t effect me too terribly. But I have to take medicine every day and get blood work done every quarter. Was it all worth it for bareback sex? The answer is simple: No. I’m infected for life and will need to take meds everyday. Not only that, but my regimen is very costly – nearly $2700 for a 30 day supply! Perhaps uninflected people should stop and think before believing everything they read about the latest scientific studies. For me, I accepted it and live my life to the fullest without regret or placing the blame on anyone but myself.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 8:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ladnek
      ladnek

      Also, Queerty. It is your responsibility to move this thread back up to the front. This is the most honest I’ve seen GAY people discuss this issue. Which is NEVER discussed really even amongst people in cities. Considering HIV is still such a problem amongst gay people, you need to make sure serious discussion with this many comments get first page treatment.

      Also @ pleasemakeitstop, THANK YOU. Your husband is a lucky man knowing he has a man who isn’t a afraid about educating his own mind. He must be a great man himself to have you :)

      Mar 6, 2014 at 8:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ladnek
      ladnek

      @nslbc: Listen. if you’re going to make a statement such as yours prepare to be challenged and be able to provide MORE information than you have. Where you monogamous? Did he stay on his meds throughout? If that truly did happen to you and you’re willing to talk about it, then talk about every single corner. Otherwise, NOBODY here should take you seriously. If you’re truly being honest, you probably qualify for a documentary as you’d be an unique case that challenges KNOWN studies. Seriously, you stepping forward with your honest story should gather LOTS of attention.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 9:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • OrwellIsDead
      OrwellIsDead

      So we don’t need PrEP anymore? Or is that only in case we meet a “bad” infectee who isn’t taking their meds like a “good” infectee. I thought we left “good” and “bad” HIV-infected roleplay behind in the mid 1908s. Everything old is new again! Thanks, Marky!

      Mar 6, 2014 at 9:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • OrwellIsDead
      OrwellIsDead

      *1980s

      Mar 6, 2014 at 10:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mark
      Mark · Queerty Editor

      @nslbc: I’m sorry to hear you’ve been infected, but apparently you have made medical history in the process. There is not a single known case of an undetectable person infecting someone with HIV. Not in the study above, not in other studies done of sero-different partners, nowhere. What has happened, though, is that the positive person went off their meds or didn’t have regular visits with their doctor to keep track of their viral load and then became infectious, OR the negative partner had sex with someone else.

      But it is a good idea to underscore the importance of not letting our guard down in general, and that even within relationships, be aware of the health of your partner and/or their other sexual behaviors.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 10:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mdterp01
      Mdterp01

      @ladnek:

      I agree in terms of this needing to be moved back to the front page. Most other threads don’t even come close to this many responses and the discussion for me was very valuable given the ignorance I had about the subject.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 11:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mdterp01
      Mdterp01

      Or Queerty, if you want to keep chronological order of the most recent posts your next web redesign could include a side bar for the most popular threads that stays on the front page. Just a suggestion.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 11:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BrandoPolo
      BrandoPolo

      @ladnek: I appreciate that you are trying to pushback on the false notion that having sex with men who report as negative is *inherently* less risky than having sex with men who report as negative, but it is not completely accurate that “UNDETECTABLE PEOPLE DO NOT SPREAD HIV” because that is not true in theory.

      There is still a minuscule risk. But two things need to be acknowledged and drilled into social consciousness:
      1) All sex is risky, and when you choose to not be abstinent you choose to accept the risk. Stigma builds a false sense of security.
      2) Having sex with someone who reports as undetectable and is telling the truth is statistically equally as risky as having sex with someone. who reports as negative provided condoms are used properly every time
      3) If you are not using condoms properly, you are statistically at higher risk than sex with an undetectable.
      4) If the person reporting as undetectable is lying (which pretty much never happens), or if the person reporting as negative is lying, wrong about his status, or doesn’t know his status (which happens a lot) you are at the highest risk of anyone.

      In THEORY, sex with guys who report as negative is less risky than sex with those who report as undetectable. But theories exist in a vacuum and tend to fall apart when variables are introduced. In PRACTICE, having sex with men who report as undetectable is the riskier practice because of human variables: guys don’t know their true status, guys lie about their status, and hardly anyone uses condoms properly every time.

      In my personal life and in my work as a psych trainee, I have not yet encountered anyone who contracted HIV from someone who reported to them as undetectable. The vast majority new infections tend to be those who barebacked with guys who status was 1) unknown or 2) reported as negative. The rest are guys who claimed condom usage with “negative” partners. Then I start asking questions:

      1. How do you know he was negative? Typical answer: “He told me.” Well that’s obviously meaningless.

      2. Another relatively typical answer to question one: “We both got tested before we started having sex. I saw his test results, and he was negative.”

      3. Okay, did he have a HIV test that tests for the actual virus or a rapid one that tests for the antibody? Typical answer: “I don’t know, there’s a difference?”

      4. Yes, if you got your test results the same day it was a rapid test, if you got them weeks later it was a viral test. Every time: “We got the rapid test.” Okay, HIV works like this. After the virus enters the bloodstream, it will eventually start replicating (seroconversion) using within weeks but sometimes not for months up to a year. During seroconversion, the host usually experiences an illness that looks like a severe flu, but some guys never have this “flu”. During seroconversion, “flu” or not, the immune system produces antibodies to fight the virus. If the host was sick, the “flu” goes away. His body might keep the virus under relative control for months or even years, during which time he is incredibly contagious if untested and untreated. These guys are where almost all new infections come from. Most HIV tests are antibody tests, so a positive guy whose body hasn’t started producing anti-HIV antibodies can test “negative” and actually be more contagious than someone who is being treated.

      “But it was protected sex.”

      5. Okay, did you use condoms for oral always? Did you lube the condom inside and out? Did you change the condom every thirty minutes? Did you use only water based lube? Usual answers: “No, no, no, and I don’t know.” Well, you didn’t use the condom properly.

      And suddenly that “safe sex” (useless phrase) you thought were having with a “negative” stranger looks quite a bit more risky than the sex you didn’t have with a responsible, honest undetectable guy. I always feel sad explaining this to someone who thought they were being “safe”. We in the health industry have failed at educating the public and dispelling myths. Hopefully this study will help.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 11:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mdterp01
      Mdterp01

      @BrandoPolo:

      Ok so I knew about the water based lubricant only, lubricating inside and out, and how you should always use a condom with oral (even though never have I ever used a condom for oral) but the changing condoms every 30 minutes I didn’t even hear of until today. Even on the CDC site it makes no mention to change it every 30 minutes and I have never done that either. Thats good info to know.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 11:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BrandoPolo
      BrandoPolo

      @Mdterp01: And I am not pretending as if I’m any better than anybody. I don’t use condoms for oral and I don’t intend to. I prefer lube that is mixed oil and water. I do not change condoms every 30 minutes. I’m not having as much sex as most gay/bi guys (due to pickiness or boredom with casual sex) but I do hookup occasionally with guys who report as negative accepting they actually know and are telling the truth, knowing that is an assumption that may be completely wrong.

      However, I accept that all of this is risky and if I contract HIV it’s my responsibility. I do this and accept this as a health counselor and someone who is highly educated from having dated a wonderful, healthy undetectable guy.

      I don’t lull myself into some holier-than-poz false sense of security. My only point is that people should know the myths, know and accept the risks, and take responsibility.

      Mar 6, 2014 at 11:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Franklin
      Franklin

      Let’s just agree the this. I’d say that it’s a safe bet to say that there are not too many doctors, virologists, immunologists, or epidemiologists on queerty’s message boards. All the anecdotal stories from people here have to be taken as you would take any advice over the internet. So, if you are going to make a decision about whether or not to use condoms with someone on ARV who is undetectable, have that conversation with your health care provider.

      Mar 7, 2014 at 2:45 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Franklin
      Franklin

      and by take any advice I mean, I mean with a healthy dose a skepticism

      Mar 7, 2014 at 2:47 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dshareef222
      dshareef222

      Some of the comments here, quite frankly, VALIDATES the article’s title “The New Negatives?”

      Many of you chastise the positive individuals in the community. You avoid them like they are a plague. Immediately deeming a positive status as deal breaker when considering any relations. This stigma coming from ones own community is especially painful when you’re the ones HIV+ individuals should be able to turn to. You’re playing a role in condemning these individuals to the closet.

      More and more HIV+ individuals will not disclose their status. In fact,this study will reinforce them to adhere to their medications and if they gain the undetectable status they’ll remain closeted about their status and go about their life as business as usual. How would anyone know? You won’t…..

      It’s FEAR of catching HIV+. It manifests itself in the form judgment and isolation of HIV+ individuals. First of all it’s misguided. Secondly, we as a gay community should create the environment where knowing your status, whether it be positive or negative, should be of utmost importance. Thirdly, individuals ignorant of their status most likely are the main culprit. Maybe we should judge and point fingers and individuals not getting tested regularly who are promiscuous.

      If the numbers keep rolling out this way. Then I say yes undetectable is the new negative. We should be focused on “Do you know your status?”

      Mar 7, 2014 at 12:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael
      Michael

      @Mark: Do you have access to the full text of this article? I’m looking for the 2014 publishing of the article with the results that is talked about above, but I have only been able to find the 2012 article that describes the study. Thank you

      Mar 7, 2014 at 3:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Eshve
      Eshve

      @Mdterp01: I’m glad to see the change in your tone over the course of these replies. I’m not going to argue the science of this study or the opinions that have been shared. But I do want to share that I can completely understand your fear or hesitation with what this study may imply; I am a kid of the 90s, where I was taught to fear HIV with all my life. However fear breeds (no pun intended) ignorance and perpetuates stereotypes (by NO means am I calling you ignorant; it’s just the proverb). Many people still believe that being infected with HIV means an instant death, and that isn’t the case anymore with proper treatment (to stay undetectable), self-care, and a good support network. I’m certain you are aware of this. Still, the one thing better than being undetectable is being HIV negative, which is where I believe you are coming from. You seem to care a lot about your health and wellbeing, which is GREAT, but I think your delivery of this came across as slightly arrogant (sometimes passion breeds arrogance – and MANY of the other arrogant replies here are driven by passion). Regardless, you want to protect yourself and that is a great thing. But keep in mind that there is no such thing as safe sex, there’s only SAFER sex (meaning you can never have sex that is 100% safe, but you can get pretty damn close to it). You’re already aware of the most recommended safer sex method – condoms at 97% effectiveness, that is if used correctly as pointed out by a few folks here (though I do want to share that silicone-based lube is condom safe as well). I’m not sure if you are aware of PrEP (Pre-Exposure Prohylaxis) which is a daily medication an HIV-negative person can take in order to reduce the risk of acquiring HIV. It adds an additional 44% protection when used in combination with condoms (though some more recent studies show that it may provide closer to 96.9% protection). If your insurance will cover the cost of PrEP (some do if you are at “high risk”), then great. You may even be eligible for co-pay assistance through Truvada, which will cover up to $200 of your co-pay. If you happen to have sex with someone who has HIV, then it’s better that he’s undetectable than not (which provides 96% protection). Recent studies also show that sero-positioning can reduce the risk of transmission – i.e. being the top reduces your risk of HIV slightly more than being the bottom during sex). So… topping an undetectable guy with a condom while you’re on PrEP would be ONE of the safest ways to have sex and protect yourself.

      Mar 7, 2014 at 3:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rhino79
      rhino79

      I haven’t read the 108 comments above, so maybe this question has been answered… “Undetectable” viral load basically means that the number of viral particles in the blood has fallen below a certain ratio, so that it isn’t detectable by current tests, correct? That doesn’t mean that there isn’t virus in the person’s body. If there were no virus in the body, that person would be functionally “cured” of HIV infection. So if there is some level of virus in the body, however miniscule, couldn’t transmission of the virus still occur? Also, haven’t there been studies that say that viral levels in semen and anal secretions may be higher than blood viral levels?

      Mar 8, 2014 at 8:04 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • justaguy999
      justaguy999

      @rhino79: within this very large thread, these questions have been asked and answered many times. You should also read the actual study, which details that NOT ONE OF THE NEG PARTICIPANTS contracted HIV. NOT ONE.

      But as for you last question about viral levels in anal secretions and semen, no studies have NEVER said this!

      Mar 8, 2014 at 12:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • nslbc
      nslbc

      For those of you who think just because your partner is undetectable means you can safely have unprotected sex with a positive partner, I have a comment. Out of the tens of millions infected with HIV this study had less than 1/10th of one percent studied. There will always be risk of catching the virus even if your partner is undetectable. It’s simple mathematics. The only way to be 100% safe is to abstain from risky behaviors. For those who posted rude comments about me being a “medical miracle” – again, nothing is 100% safe. This is what is wrong with our community. And to answer the questions posed to me – yes we were and still are monogamous and my partner and I go to the doctor every quarter for blood tests and not once miss a dose of our daily medications. Please, I’m begging you open your eyes and your minds that this study is not 100% accurate in it’s findings. The sample size is way too small to make that conclusion. For the sake of your health and that of your partner’s and future partners – please use protection and don’t take the risk.

      Mar 8, 2014 at 1:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Niall
      Niall

      This wouldn’t be such an issue in the first place if majority of people just had protected sex and barebacking wasn’t such an obsession.

      Mar 8, 2014 at 2:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • justaguy999
      justaguy999

      @Niall: this would not be an issue if all people, but I know you only mean gay men, just obstained from sex totally! Then there would 100% protection and 0 chance of anyone catching an STD. We should shake hands only while wearing gloves and keep ourselves totally covered at all times, lest someone catch something.

      I agree with you, it is horrible that so many people don’t want to live by your subjective rules and consent to live lives wrapped in latex at all times, no matter how long, or how well they know there partner. And worst of all, how dare they want to make informed choices based on FACTS and research, when there is so much unsubstantiated fear, and questionable anticdotal “stories” to rely on instead.

      I believe a total lack of sexual contact with anyone of any HIV or STD status should be the next real gay movement. Who knows what other sexually transmitted disease are waiting to kill us all.

      Problem solved.

      Mar 8, 2014 at 3:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • justaguy999
      justaguy999

      @NSLBC: You win! Your one personal experience, which we should all take as fact without any true evidence, is greater than decades of science, research, changes in standard of care, legal policy changes, and common sense.

      I suggest others like me; Doctors,Lawyers, HIV/AIDS policy experts, Researchers and other medical professionals, stop giving our information, resources,expert knowledge and opinions to sites like this for free. They would rather cling to their fears, and spread what’s left, instead of learning…just like the Right Wingers they complain about. Let them find us at work, and Pay us dearly for our knowledge.

      Mar 8, 2014 at 4:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mark
      Mark

      Most gay men are uninfected. So all things being equal, if he’s telling you he’s Negative, he probably is. However, if you’re Negative and want to stay that way then basing your safe sex decisions on what a complete stranger tells you (“I’m neg”/”clean”/”undetectable”/”this”/”that”/”the other”) then you’re not acting very prudently. These studies make for interesting reading, and their findings apply to very specific and very small groups of people. If you’re not inside one of those groups, use a condom. Or, don’t – but don’t complain later.

      Mar 9, 2014 at 12:58 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rhino79
      rhino79

      @justaguy999: Actually, I just read the entire thread and my questions were not answered. Your terse, dismissive comment was useless, but thanks anyway. I read a lot of back-and-forth bickering between a handful of people. There was a lot of talk about behavior, disclosure, and stigma, but very little on the actual science and logic behind this study.
      My question is a fairly simple one: How and why is it possible that multiple, unprotected sex acts between sero-discordant couples, when one is undetectable, did not result in any transmissions? Surely, in all the buckets of cum expended during this study, there were at least a few, lonely HIV viruses floating around. So why didn’t any of them find a new home in a partner’s bloodstream?

      Mar 9, 2014 at 4:56 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Niall
      Niall

      @justaguy999: Okay, thanks for taking what I said and then totally expanding it to something inane and unrelated in order to prove a point? *thumbs up*

      Mar 9, 2014 at 1:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BrandoPolo
      BrandoPolo

      @rhino79: “How and why is it possible that multiple, unprotected sex acts between sero-discordant couples, when one is undetectable, did not result in any transmissions? Surely, in all the buckets of cum expended during this study, there were at least a few, lonely HIV viruses floating around. So why didn’t any of them find a new home in a partner’s bloodstream?”

      The answer to your question is your question. The reason is the risk of transmission with a truly undetectable is so low as to be equally statistically improbable as catching HIV when using a condom properly. It rarely if ever happens because undetectable-ness “protects” as often — or “fails” as rarely — as well a properly-used condoms.

      You can either accept this or not, but skepticism it’s not going to change the statistical conclusions of the study. (Which, by the way, won’t be completed until 2017 — these are preliminary findings.)

      Your question is like asking “There are surely deadly amoebas out there in the water, how can millions of people go their lifetime swimming without ever dying from an amoeba infecting their brains?” Because the likelihood of it happening is extremely slim, that’s how — and that’s why it would be a poor reason to foreswear swimming.

      Mar 9, 2014 at 4:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BrandoPolo
      BrandoPolo

      @nslbc: “Out of the tens of millions infected with HIV this study had less than 1/10th of one percent studied. There will always be risk of catching the virus even if your partner is undetectable. It’s simple mathematics. The only way to be 100% safe is to abstain from risky behaviors. For those who posted rude comments about me being a “medical miracle” – again, nothing is 100% safe.”

      This is mostly true, except the “simple mathematics” part. You don’t have to include every member of a population to get valid statistical conclusions if your research methodology is sound: at a certain count, statistical variance becomes negligible to the tune of several decimal points — which is why I always shake my head when people poo-pooh Nielsen ratings on the grounds that it selects households rather than survey the whole population. I think Nielsen should one day survey the entire population to show people who don’t understand statistical variance that you come up with the exact same results after a certain research quantity.

      That part of statistical research is not simple mathematics, it’s very complicated, but it is well-established Statistics 101.

      Mar 9, 2014 at 4:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rhino79
      rhino79

      @BrandoPolo: I understand what you’re saying, but your response is a tautology. “The logic of this study is that this is a logical study.”
      To me, using any statistics to guide sexual behavior is dangerous. For example, the statistics might say one has a very slim chance of contracting HIV in one sex act. Yet, in reality, every person contracts HIV in one sex act.
      Statistics are abstractions, valuable to scientists, but misleading as guides to behavior.

      Mar 10, 2014 at 1:08 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BrandoPolo
      BrandoPolo

      @rhino79: Numbers and the scientific method are not abstract at all:, they are concrete. Statistics guides everyone’s behavior — people are constantly using probabilities to make decisions on what to say, where to go, and how to act. As the brain developes we learn to do this almost instantaneously, but no one does anything without the brain doing a cost-benefit analysis whether a split second or weeks of contemplation.

      Not doing so would be asinine as well as dangerous because everyone’s behavior would be irrational. You cannot pooh-pooh tautology then make your point with a tautology: “The existence of an exception means the exception is not an exception.” Statistics say that there is a very slim chance of transmitting STDs using condoms. That there is still a chance would not make thinking condoms are dangerous a rational though. There is a slim chance of dying in a plane crash. The fact that everyone who dies in a plane crash dies in one plane crash would not make missing your mother’s funeral because you refuse to fly an inherently rational cost-benefit analysis.

      My response included a tautology, but it was not only tautology — it is not a one-to-one comparison since the study is focused on HIV and condoms have several purposes, but my response included the the takeaway that being undetectable mitigates the risk of transmission about as well and as poorly as proper condom use. I will add that if your condom use is improper — as it is 9 times out of ten — the being undetectable actually mitigates better. What can be done with this statistical knowledge is the exact opposite of dangerous, since it will save lives and money by allowing us to better educate people on how to protect themselves. HIV is still being spread but it’s not through people who are being treated; we’ve been telling people to avoid the wrong stuff.

      That said, the “tautology” stands. The logical study is indeed logical. A rose is, in fact, a rose. *shrug*

      Mar 10, 2014 at 1:33 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sobedoug
      sobedoug

      “Does this mean that discordant couples (or ‘serodifferent couples,’ as the author called them) can dispense with condoms altogether? Not necessarily. While the transmission rate was zero in this study, the presenter made a point of discussing the uncertainty around that number. She pointed out that while their best estimate for the transmission rate is zero, they can’t exclude the possibility, with 95% certainty, that the true overall transmission rate was up to 4% over 10 years, and that the true transmission rate for receptive anal sex with ejaculation was up to 10% over 10 years.”

      http://hivforum.tumblr.com/post/79078620695/news-from-croi-does-zero-infections-mean-zero-risk

      Mar 12, 2014 at 4:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ddean
      ddean

      I have been in a relationship with my partner for 14 months ( he’s Poz I’m neg). and we have always had unprotected sex. If you would have ask me 5 years ago to even date a hiv+ person I would have told you to go fly a kite. When I met him everything changed in my mind. I’ve lost my younger brother and 2 uncles to the epidemic and known several others. I made the decision on my own without him pressuring me. I’m 41 so not a kid making this decision. I thought of going on Truvada but the side effects are as scary as the disease itself. I’ve talked with several doctors and ask lots of people. I believe the anti drugs he’s on will not allow it to pass to me. Will I change my mind to start the Truvada treatment? I’ll make that decision but for now I’m not concerned. Maybe it’s not for everyone but to judge anyone that’s a adult is as bad as judging if there gay in my eyes. Unless there very young. We’re monogamous and plan to stay that way. As we know the risk for the both of us. We’re planning to be married next year and I know he’s my life partner but the hate being passed around on this subject is definitely sad in any case. Be good to one another and remember this. As we grow and progress as adults our tastes and opinions change and passing judgement and being close minded will keep you dead in your tracks. Keep a open mind people! Period….

      Mar 14, 2014 at 10:35 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • alter
      alter

      Okay, so some people are “poz-phobic.” So what? Some people (poz or not) are age-phobic or fat-phobic or race-phobic in their choice of partners. If you get to make choices about who is going to share your bed and bod, then HIV status is no worse than any other criterion.

      Mar 15, 2014 at 12:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • david-sf
      david-sf

      @pleasemakeitstop
      Please please please get in touch with me I need your advise and assitance with a mtter of great importance sf.david@yahoo.com
      thank you

      Apr 16, 2014 at 1:38 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • david-sf
      david-sf

      @BrandoPolo: I def would like to talk to you further about this can you contact me sf.david@yahoo.com

      Apr 16, 2014 at 1:41 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • david-sf
      david-sf

      @pleasemakeitstop: I really really need to talk with you about this issue I am currently working on a project and your information is very valuable to me. I would like to enlist your help please contact me when you and if you see this this is not spam I am willing to put my email address here please get in touch thank you sf.david@yahoo.com

      Apr 16, 2014 at 1:45 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Celtic
      Celtic

      A friend forwarded this piece to me. I have read and heard about undetectable viral loads not being transmittable to a partner. Frankly, I believe PrEP should be made available at the lowest cost possible to all gays and lesbians. We treat all other viruses with an antidote. HIV should be no different. I wonder how much longer it will take to free up the mark for PrEP for all who want it? Or, will this be yet another stalemate so the government can control gay sex at some level? Europe, especially Scandinavia, is much further advanced on this issue. How much the U.S. policy is governed by pharmaceuticals seeking to make the highest profits imaginable?

      May 26, 2014 at 12:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • QNetter
      QNetter

      @Goforit: You’re reading it wrong. First you have to start with the risk of transmission, which the CDC estimates for anal intercourse for the receptive partner as 1.4%. So the actual risk is 0.014*0.04 (meaning a 96% reduction in risk) per act, or .00056, or .056%, or just over 1 in 2000.

      May 30, 2014 at 6:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Pat_Rick
      Pat_Rick

      I am a medical professional and I am HIV positive – undetectable. I have been aware of this research for several years. Based on the ignorance of some of these comments is why I do not even attempt to date non-positive people. HIV undetectable (positive) gay men live in fear because of the stigma that is so prevalent among gay negative men. Anytime you have sex you are at risk of contracting something. I do not feel accepted in the gay community. I feel stigmatized and frowned upon by “our” community. The safe sex message is a joke. I say this because it is the truth. All you have to do is cruse any hook-up site and see all the “negative” guys on the prowl for bareback sex with “negative” men. The only way this will end is if we end the stigma. If you are a gay sexually active man odds are you have had sex with several HIV positive men that were detectable and did not know it. Good for you if you are still negative, truly, I don’t want anyone to feel the stigma I feel. It is hell. Is it not better for a person to be undetectable with 1-4% chance of transmission? There is little to no support for HIV undetectable men. We live in the shadows. We fear “our” community. This is why so many HIV positive men turn to illegal drugs to escape. The gay community is the root cause of our demise. Ignorance, fear, and stigma of HIV people will continue to kill us. I am sick of the ignorance and stigma. It is almost to the point I hate being gay because there are so many double standards in the gay community.

      Jun 3, 2014 at 7:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • QNetter
      QNetter

      @Franklin: That “same time every day” point is pretty much nonsense. Most modern HIV meds have effectivity lives longer than that. The days of “11:05, not 1104, not 11:06, and two hours after food or an hour before” are a decade or more ignorant and out-of-date.

      Jun 3, 2014 at 7:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • QNetter
      QNetter

      @Pat_Rick: Our loss. Seriously. I would be very sad if scum like those your are reacting to had convinced my husband – poz 20 years – not to hook up with me 18 years ago.

      Jun 3, 2014 at 7:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • QNetter
      QNetter

      @ddean: The vast majority of people who use Truvada for PrEP have few to no side-effects. The scariest observed — small bone density loss and increased kidney proteins — were found in a tiny percentage of participants, and the “most frequent” side-effects — headache and upset stomach — were found in <2% of participants, and in numbers indistinguishable from the placebo users.

      It will be two years for me in August, with no side-effects at all.

      Jun 3, 2014 at 8:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sandia12
      sandia12

      Hello,
      I was diagnosed of this HIV deadly disease a friend of mine introduce Dr joe to me and I actually did contact him after he has prepare what he said he will do and he sent it to me and I used it according to his prescription after one week I went to the hospital to check my status again because I was feeling differently from the way I used when I was tested POSITIVE to my greatest surprise the status was NEGATIVE the medical doctors there was surprise and I have to tell the whole world about this if you are still having this similar problem I recommend you to Dr joe for you here is his email address: ofemuspelltempleandhivcure@gmail.com

      Jun 6, 2014 at 6:55 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Barry0
      Barry0

      Attention Everone My name is Barry Muller, and i want you to know that a man named Dr. oshimiri is the only Dr who could ever get my HIV-AIDS cured with his healing spell, i have tried almost everything but i couldn’t find any solution on my disease, despite all these happening to me, i always spend a lot to buy HIV drugs from hospital and taking some several medications but no relieve, until one day i was just browsing on the internet when i come across a great post of !Nicole! who truly said that she was been diagnose with HIV and was healed that very week through the help of these great powerful healing spell doctor, sometime i really wonder why people called him Dr. oshimiri , i never knew it was all because of the great and perfect work that he has been doing that is causing all this. so i quickly contacted him, and he ask me some few questions and he said a thing i will never forget that anyone who contacted him is ! always getting his or her healing in just 2 weeks after doing all he asked you to do, so i was amazed all the time i heard that from him, so i did all things only to see that at the very day which he said i will be healed, all the strength that has left me before rush back and i becomes very strong and healthy, this disease almost kills my life all because of me, so i will to hospital to give the final test to the disease and the doctor said i am HIV negative, i am very amazed and happy about the healing Dr. oshimiri gave to me from the ancient part of Africa if you have any question for me concerning all i have said email me at: barry.muller01@gmail.com But if you feel like contacting Dr. oshimiri at once you can email him now for your own healing too at: oshimiriigbuduspiritualcure.01@gmail.com or call his phone number which is +2348116088444 for direct contact good luck

      Jun 6, 2014 at 6:58 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • buckcherry
      buckcherry

      @j.martinez53: @Barry0: Ok I knew there would be ignorant mofo’s posting BS like what you are posting.. 1st off MISS THING!! everyone does not catch HIV by risky behavior or being irresponsible.. did you know over 60% of people newly infected get it from their LTR PARTNERS that are suppose to be in monogamous relationships… SO MARINATE on that Miss GURL.. Number 2 Miss THING.. you are undetectable as long as you are on your MEDICATION HAVE UNDETECTABLE VIRAL LOAD… meaning if the person is staying on the medical regime they can NOT TRANSMIT the HIV virus…. So in other words if you get HIV from having unprotected sex …. you didn’t get it from the HIV UNDETECTABLE PERSON.. you got it from someone like YOU who sit around on a high horse thinking YOUR NEGATIVE… then you having unprotected sex with OTHER SUPPOSEDLY NEGATIVE guys who do not get check ups & they are infected w/ the virus… SO PLEASE GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT.. so in closing it is more safe to have sex with someone that is POZ undetectable than someone who is claiming to be negative that are not being frequently checked.. .YOU SEE THESE DAYS SWEETIE … HIV POZ GUYS ARE LIVING A MUCH HEALTHIER LIFESTYLE THAN you so called people who claim to be hiv negative.. BOOYOW BEAOCH!!

      Jun 7, 2014 at 5:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hilton11
      hilton11

      DR odudu is the only Dr who could ever get my HIV-AIDS cured with his healing spell, i have tried almost everything but i couldn’t find any solution on my disease, despite all these happening to me, i always spend a lot to buy HIV drugs from hospital and taking some several medications but no relieve, until one day i was just browsing on the internet when i come across a great post of !Nicole! who truly said that she was been diagnose with HIV and was healed that very week through the help of these great powerful healing spell doctor, sometime i really wonder why people called him Papa Odudu, i never knew it was all because of the great and perfect work that he has been doing that is causing all this. so i quickly contacted him, and he ask me some few questions and he said a thing i will never forget that anyone who contacted him is ! always getting his or her healing in just 6 hours after doing all he ask you, so i was amazed all the time i heard that from him, so i did all things only to see that at the very day which he said i will be healed, all the strength that has left me before rush back and i becomes very strong and healthy, this disease almost kills my life all because of me, so i will to hospital to give the final test to the disease and the doctor said i am HIV negative, i am very amazed and happy about the healing Dr Odudu gave to me from the help of his ancient herbs if you have any question for me concerning all i have said email me at: hiltonander1@gmail.com But if you feel like contacting Dr Odudu at once you can email him now for your own healing too at: oduduspells@gmail.com or call his phone number which is +2347031548325 for direct contact good luck i am Hilton Anderson…

      Jun 8, 2014 at 3:32 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hilton11
      hilton11

      I use to be hiv positive but now i am HIV negative, i am very amazed and happy about the healing Dr Odudu gave to me from the help of his ancient herbs if you have any question for me concerning all i have said email me at: hiltonander1@gmail.com But if you feel like contacting Dr Odudu at once you can email him now for your own healing too at: oduduspells@gmail.com or call his phone number which is +2347031548325 for direct contact good luck i am Hilton Anderson…

      Jun 8, 2014 at 3:33 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Randy5432
      Randy5432

      Been a HIV positive is just like been through hell but EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE. So amazing and i want to testify of the good work done by GREAT BABA a very strong and powerful spell caster. GREAT BABA has proved science and scientists wrong for believing and thinking that there is no cure for HIV AIDS but to be sincere this GREAT MAN is so real and powerful. I never thought that this spell will work but this GREAT MAN has proved it to me and it has worked and still working perfectly. My Name is Randy Scott and i was diagnosed of the deadly disease called HIV AIDS in 2011 and i thought that is the end and there will be no hope. Speaking to anyone was always a problem because i was so worried and always in the state of unrest in fact i thought it was over until one blessed day when i was searching for help here on the internet, i came across a testimony about GREAT BABA on how he helped a lady who was HIV positive. At first i thought it was all a lie but i decided to give it a try since there was no option and, when i contacted this MAN he laughed and told me that, that is too small for him to handle but i was still in doubt, and he gave me a form to fill which I did, then he called me and told me that his gods required some items in which he will use in casting a curing spell on me and he told me that it will cost only $500, I sent him the money because I could not find the items. He bought the items and prepared a cure for me, and instructed me on what to do and i OBEYED him completely as he told me. Then he sent a parcel to me through the courier delivery service. I paid for the courier service, I got my parcel, it was a holy water and a pure holy oil as described by GREAT BABA. I took the holy water and the holy oil and after taking it, he told me to go for check up but I was still in doubt and was so afraid to go for the test but i took a bold step and believed that it is well, and i believed all what he has done and all that he has told me. So i went to the hospital for the test it was so amazing, awesome and exciting what seems to be impossible became possible, the VIRUS disappeared completely from my system and I was tested HIV negative. Quickly I called him and told him what happened he congratulated me and today i am a happy man again the way things use to be. Don’t you think that this testimony is worth sharing? I promise to tell the world about him and i will keep sharing this testimony till the end because many people has died of AIDS and i want many people who believed that it is over to know that EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE AND I WANT THEM TO GET HELP FROM THIS SPELL CASTER by contacting him on his email at Highersolutiontemple@yahoo.com for your solution now. If you are hiv positive and you think that it is over i want to tell you that there is hope for you and if you truly and dearly value your life please contact him now. THIS IS REAL HE IS NOT A SCAM, BELIEVE HIM AND DON’T ASK TOO MUCH QUESTIONS. Thank you GREAT BABA and May your good gods keep rewarding you for your good deeds.

      Jun 9, 2014 at 8:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hilton11
      hilton11

      DR odudu is the only Dr who could ever get my HIV-AIDS cured with his healing spell, i have tried almost everything but i couldn’t find any solution on my disease, despite all these happening to me, i always spend a lot to buy HIV drugs from hospital and taking some several medications but no relieve, until one day i was just browsing on the internet when i come across a great post of !Nicole! who truly said that she was been diagnose with HIV and was healed that very week through the help of these great powerful healing spell doctor, sometime i really wonder why people called him Papa Odudu, i never knew it was all because of the great and perfect work that he has been doing that is causing all this. so i quickly contacted him, and he ask me some few questions and he said a thing i will never forget that anyone who contacted him is ! always getting his or her healing in just 6 hours after doing all he ask you, so i was amazed all the time i heard that from him, so i did all things only to see that at the very day which he said i will be healed, all the strength that has left me before rush back and i becomes very strong and healthy, this disease almost kills my life all because of me, so i will to hospital to give the final test to the disease and the doctor said i am HIV negative, i am very amazed and happy about the healing Dr Odudu gave to me from the help of his ancient herbs if you have any question for me concerning all i have said email me at:(hiltonander1@gmail.com) But if you feel like contacting Dr Odudu at once you can email him now for your own healing too at: (oduduspells@gmail.com) or call his phone number which is +2347031548325 for direct contact good luck i am Hilton Anderson. You can also contact him if you have one of the problems below he is also specialize on them..

      1) If you want your ex back.
      (2) if you always have bad dreams.
      (3) You want to be promoted in your office.
      (4) You want women/men to run after you.
      (5) If you want a child
      (6)If you need an HIV cure
      (7) You want to tie your husband/wife to be yours forever.
      (8) Have you been scammed and you want to recover you lost money email him on (oduduspells@gmail.com) or call him +2347031548325

      Jun 10, 2014 at 6:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hilton11
      hilton11

      DR odudu is the only Dr who could ever get my HIV-AIDS cured with his healing spell, i have tried almost everything but i couldn’t find any solution on my disease, despite all these happening to me, i always spend a lot to buy HIV drugs from hospital and taking some several medications but no relieve, until one day i was just browsing on the internet when i come across a great post of !Nicole! who truly said that she was been diagnose with HIV and was healed that very week through the help of these great powerful healing spell doctor, sometime i really wonder why people called him Papa Odudu, i never knew it was all because of the great and perfect work that he has been doing that is causing all this. so i quickly contacted him, and he ask me some few questions and he said a thing i will never forget that anyone who contacted him is ! always getting his or her healing in just 6 hours after doing all he ask you, so i was amazed all the time i heard that from him, so i did all things only to see that at the very day which he said i will be healed, all the strength that has left me before rush back and i becomes very strong and healthy, this disease almost kills my life all because of me, so i will to hospital to give the final test to the disease and the doctor said i am HIV negative, i am very amazed and happy about the healing Dr Odudu gave to me from the help of his ancient herbs if you have any question for me concerning all i have said email me at:(hiltonander1@gmail.com) But if you feel like contacting Dr Odudu at once you can email him now for your own healing too at: (oduduspells@gmail.com) or call his phone number which is +2347031548325 for direct contact good luck i am Hilton Anderson. You can also contact him if you have one of the problems below he is also specialize on them..

      1) If you want your ex back.
      (2) if you always have bad dreams.
      (3) You want to be promoted in your office.
      (4) You want women/men to run after you.
      (5) If you want a child
      (6) You want to tie your husband/wife to be yours forever.
      (7) Have you been scammed and you want to recover you lost money email him on (oduduspells@gmail.com) or call him +2347031548325

      Jun 10, 2014 at 6:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • HIVCURE
      HIVCURE

      HEATHER
      I am indeed very happy for my life; I never thought that I will live on earth before the year runs out. I have been suffering from a deadly disease (HIV) for the past 3 years now; I had spent a lot of money going from one places to another, from churches to churches, hospitals have been my every day residence. Constant checks up have been my hobby not until this faithful day, I was searching through the internet, I saw a testimony on how DR. SAGO helped someone in curing his HIV disease, quickly I copied his email which is sagohivcureherbalcenter@gmail.com just to give him a test
      I spoke to him, he asked me to do some certain things which I did, he told me that he is going to provide the herbal to me, which he did, then he asked me to go for medical checkup after some days after using the herbal cure, I was free from the deadly disease, he only asked me to post the testimony through the whole world, faithfully am doing it now, please brothers and sisters, he is great, I owe him in return. if you are having a similar problem just email him on sagohivcureherbalcenter@gmail.com his phone number was +2348133349055

      Jun 14, 2014 at 10:10 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hilton11
      hilton11

      DR odudu is the only Dr who could ever get my HIV-AIDS cured with his healing spell, i have tried almost everything but i couldn’t find any solution on my disease, despite all these happening to me, i always spend a lot to buy HIV drugs from hospital and taking some several medications but no relieve, until one day i was just browsing on the internet when i come across a great post of !Nicole! who truly said that she was been diagnose with HIV and was healed that very week through the help of these great powerful healing spell doctor, sometime i really wonder why people called him Papa Odudu, i never knew it was all because of the great and perfect work that he has been doing that is causing all this. so i quickly contacted him, and he ask me some few questions and he said a thing i will never forget that anyone who contacted him is ! always getting his or her healing in just 6 hours after doing all he ask you, so i was amazed all the time i heard that from him, so i did all things only to see that at the very day which he said i will be healed, all the strength that has left me before rush back and i becomes very strong and healthy, this disease almost kills my life all because of me, so i will to hospital to give the final test to the disease and the doctor said i am HIV negative, i am very amazed and happy about the healing Dr Odudu gave to me from the help of his ancient herbs if you have any question for me concerning all i have said email me at(hiltonander1@gmail.com) But if you feel like contacting Dr Odudu at once you can email him now for your own healing too at: (oduduspells@gmail.com) or call his phone number which is +2347031548325 for direct contact good luck i am Hilton Anderson. You can also contact him if you have one of the problems below he is also specialize on them..

      1) If you want your ex back.
      (2) if you always have bad dreams.
      (3) You want to be promoted in your office.
      (4) You want women/men to run after you.
      (5) If you want a child
      (6)If you need an HIV cure
      (7) You want to tie your husband/wife to be yours forever.
      (8) Have you been scammed and you want to recover you lost money email him on (oduduspells@gmail.com) or call him +2347031548325

      Jun 14, 2014 at 5:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Greg_Adkins
      Greg_Adkins

      I would have thought the issue of sero-disconcordence & HIV transmission is more about HIV-ve men having unprotected anal sex with men with unknown HIV status, and potentially HIV+ve status without any influence of anti-retrovirals. Similarly, if the casual partner is HIV+ve, on treatments but has an unknown viral load, the risk exists that folklore may trump fact and our risk-taking HIV-ve man may enjoy a limited time of HIV free status.

      Jun 18, 2014 at 12:54 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sergiotundo
      sergiotundo

      @j.martinez53: PREACH! Thank you.

      Jun 19, 2014 at 11:09 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gman1234
      gman1234

      I do not like this article….one, because who the hell tries to give HIV to anyone….two, how dare the writer insinuate that the responsibility of protecting our community is the hiv positive persons….responsibility falls to the individual to protect himself/herself…..the stigma is so great against HIV poz people and this article perpetuates that stereotype…I think it is amazing and wonderful that it is clearly manageable now, but how about HIV negative people take some responsibility themselves for their own body, their own health, and stop acting like HIV poz people are a danger to the community…when the real danger is the people who think they are negative and never get tested or treated….STOP THE STIGMA!!!!!!!!!!!

      Jun 22, 2014 at 3:45 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • QNetter
      QNetter

      @BrandoPolo: Your info on testing os out of date. I just had an Abbott 4th-gen test. It tests for both antibodies and p24 antigen — that is, the virus itself. I had blood drawn on Friday morning at 11am. By Saturday morning at 8:30am, less than a day later, the results were in my online chart.

      Jun 22, 2014 at 4:51 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • QNetter
      QNetter

      @gman1234: Bravo!

      Jun 22, 2014 at 4:51 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chribri
      Chribri

      @Goforit:

      “96% translates to 4 out of every 100. How many times are any one of us getting laid in any given year? Do the math guys.”

      Yeah, you got that really very wrong. It’s a 96% reduction from the transmission rate of the general population. Which according to the CDC is between 4 and 138 transmissions per 10,000 exposures (depending on the act, 138 exposures for receptive anal sex). So a 96% reduction in transmission would equal about 5.5 transmissions per 10,000 exposures or a 0.0552% chance of transmission when performing the most risky behavior.

      Even that is being a bit generous as the researchers predicted that as data came in the changes of transmission would be much lower.

      Jun 23, 2014 at 3:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chribri
      Chribri

      To put this into perspective here is a list of behaviors more risky that bareback sex with an undetectable partner:

      1. Smoking
      2. Drinking alcohol
      3. Eating a high fat diet
      4. Climbing a ladder
      5. Swimming
      6. Driving a car
      7. Climbing stairs
      8. Playing sports

      Until you are ready to shut yourself up in a dark room any statement that you will not have sex with undetectable guys is nothing more than POZphobia

      Jun 23, 2014 at 4:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • HIVCURE
      HIVCURE

      i am from sudan, I wish to share the testimony of life experience with the general public about what DR SAGO has just done for me, this Dr has just brought back my Lost hope to me with his great powers, I was infected with HIV/AIDS during my youth camp in Texas. i never notice it until I meet this man JAMES . We both love each other and we planned to get married. I Was surprise when we went for HIV/AIDS test, i was HIV/AIDS positive. The man was so disappointed in me, I wanted to kill myself, but a friend of mine told me not to worry that I still have life to live. She ask me one day to followed her to the cyber cafe, when we got there, I decided search for the best way to live with HIV/AID, that was when i saw a testimonies from Sullivan on how a great priest healed her of HIV/AIDS. i decided to email the man, then you won’t believe this when i Contacted this DR of my problems, he told me what I needed to do and how to do it, him and he gave me 6days to go back for the test again, I went back to the same hospital and have the same test, but the HIV/AIDS positive change to negative. I didn’t believed the doctor’s report, I went to another hospital, the same result, then i shouted out in tears cause i never believe that this was true today i am HIV negative Dr Sago gave me another second chance to life you can reach him his ways may sound weird but worked for me i am grateful to him he can help you here is his address sagohivcureherbalcenter@gmail.com i wish luck just as mine

      Jennifer mwede

      Jun 30, 2014 at 6:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dax Eloes
      Dax Eloes

      I am immune to HIV/AIDS. Furthermore, why the hell are people wasting money on medications to give you a ‘undetectable’ status when there is a cure. Forget about receiving it in the USA, you will not get any help. Canada, Korea and Eastern Europe there’s therapy to rid yourself of HIV/AIDS in a three year time-frame. Just ask Timothy Ray Brown. 1% of people descended from Northern Europe are virtually immune to AIDS in theory from mutations from surviving the Bubonic Plague. There is a HIV immunity test for those who carry the CCR5 gene. DO NOT SIGN ANYTHING THAT GIVES LABS CONSENT TO SUBMIT YOUR CCR5 gene to drug company’s. DO NOT DONATE YOUR BLOOD OR BONE MARROW WITHOUT JUST COMPENSATION.

      Jul 12, 2014 at 3:20 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • swart
      swart

      Hello!! I’m indeed very happy for the great help that Dr. olikipa rendered to me, I was a HIV patient my husband also was a HIV patient, we saw a blog whereby Dr.olikipa cured HIV, we (Me and My Husband) decided to contact him which we did, he asked us to buy some items, unfailingly we sent him the money he will need in buying the items required, He casted the spell and asked us to go for check-up after three days of casting the spell, Luckily for us we were tested HIV negative, now I believe all these Testimonies about him on the internet, he is truly a great man, if you want to discuss with me on how he cured us, kindly email me on swarthamp@gmail.com or you can contact the great Herbalist and a spell caster on drolikipaspellhome@gmail.com or you can call him via his mobile phone number on +2348110037989

      Aug 6, 2014 at 11:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TENGOESOUY
      TENGOESOUY

      @Mdterp01: I think that risk exist @j.martinez53.
      but with this article, you can say to the negative person `hey… relax, enjoy sex with a positive persona. USe condom, please. But relax your mind. “

      Aug 23, 2014 at 11:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • elijah snow
      elijah snow

      “[O]ur friends with HIV who are on successful treatment are definitely doing their part to stay healthy — and protect the rest of us, too.”

      Exactly. We hiv+ gay men are doing our part in staying undetectable. Do your part and 1) do not stigmatize, demonize, bash or reject us in bed (that will not make you safer, either… if you demonize open hiv+ men, those who aren’t open but still want to fuck you, will fuck you, and you won’t be none the wiser), and 2) don’t leave the task of protecting you to us. We will protect ourselves, we don’t have to protect you.

      Oct 1, 2014 at 5:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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