Patrick Haggerty grew up in rural Dry Creek, Washington during the 1950s. His father, Charles Edward Haggerty, was a dairy farmer. When he was a teenager, Patrick starting becoming aware of his sexuality, but he kept it hidden as best he could.
Related: 18 Coming Out Success Stories To Celebrate National Coming Out Day
One day, Patrick’s father, sensing his son was gay, sat him down and gave him a piece of advice he still carries with him to this day: “Don’t sneak. Because if you sneak … it means you think you’re doing the wrong thing.”
Related: This Dad’s Response To His Twin Sons Coming Out Is 100 Percent Perfect
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“Of all the things a father in 1959 could have told his gay son,” Patrick recalls, “my father tells me to be proud of myself and not sneak. … I had the patron saint of dads for sissies. No, I didn’t know it at the time, but I know now.”
Watch the touching video below.
Celtic
“Patron Saint of Sissies” perpetuates the myth and image that gays are girlie men. That characterization alone frustrates me to no end. I, too, grew up on a farm in a very large farm area of Maryland. I, too, sensed there was something “different” about me, but most of the boys I traveled with never made it an issue. I grew up macho, butch, masculine. Yet, my inner persona is one of love, caring and compassion. Whether I am watching a football game, soccer game or ice hockey where my more virile person comes out; or, crying during scenes from “The Normal Heart”, I am still a man. I’ll be damned if anyone will call me a sissy. I had that same strength of mind at age 15. The longer gay men perpetuate the image of being sissy, the longer people will see gays as weak, effeminate and lacking in the male prowess. Time to put those images to death.
dannyboi2
Nicely done, ahh it’s very sweet…
dannyboi2
@Celtic: Naw, that’s your perception. that’s like saying being effeminate or butch makes you weak, It’s an oxymoron, so far from the Truth most Queens could kick arse better than most straight dudes, it’s all relevant, the message I got was be yourself nothing more nothing less.
Curty
@Celtic: seems like you are too focused on personas and stereotypes. What’s important is that people be who they are whether they are masc, fem… both or any other label. To be feminine is not a sign of weakness to be masc is not a sign of strength. They are just made up personas that people have boxed people in. Be who you are not to prove anything but to be one’s authentic self.
Jaroslaw
Harvey Firestein described himself as a sissie when being interviewed for “The Celluloid Closet.” And people have different ideas of what it means to be a Sissie – if this kid was a late teen in the 50’s, he is now 70 – cut him some slack. Personally, I agree with you Celtic, I don’t like the word, but to each his own, I guess.
alphacentauri
@Celtic: Exactly I’m not sure why this guy is a total bad stereotype of what it means to be a gay man?
@Jaroslaw: Yes and Harvey Firestein is biphobic and bigoted.
Jaroslaw
@alphacentauri: Even if Harvey is “biphobic” what does that have to do with how he describes himself?
alphacentauri
@Jaroslaw: He’s certainly full of himself and a biphobic bigot, his “Torch song trilogy” was not nearly as bad as “the boys in the band” or Larry Kramer’s weepy professional victim AIDS play/film that sucked shit through a straw; but it’s still full of bad stereotypes about gay men, and there is biphobia as well: “I’ll believe there are bisexuals when I meet one who lives with his boyfriend and sneaks out to see his girlfriend.”
AtticusBennett
Celtic misses the point entirely – “The longer gay men perpetuate the image of being sissy, the longer people will see gays as weak, effeminate and lacking in the male prowess. Time to put those images to death.” – that’s a load of BS.
can Celtic put himself Out there and show us all who he is? i dunno. let’s see.
“male prowess” – HA! here’s the deal, being what society deems “effeminate” should not be seen as LESSER. it’s THAT simple.
Equality doesn’t mean “people who tolerate gays as long as they’re not ‘effeminate'”, and only a cowardly dunce would suggest otherwise.
know what Male Prowess is? being Out – and not hiding, and not giving a damn whether or not you match up to some podunk townie’s idea of “what a real man is”
Glücklich
“StoryCorps” always has good stuff.
DDstar1me
Celtic-I’m fem and I can certainly understand your argument and appreciate it. However,dannyboi2’s argument resonated with me and I’m left feeling rejuvenated and confident in the fact that it really is ok to just be me.
Look, the point is not all of us are lucky to have parents as accepting. But it’s good to find some kind of kingship amongst like minded folks.
DDstar1me
@dannyboi2…thank you for your comment. It has brightened my day.
DeserTBoB
@alphacentauri: Boy oh boy did @dannyboi2 get it right! Harvey Firestein’s a biphobic neurotic queen who revels in his own misery. As a bisexual man, his (and most of the 100% gay group’s) biphobia pisses me off NO end. Also, so does this fucking bullshit with what passes for “gay society” these days (can’t participate unless you have an iPhone, ya know…more on that later), especially the “clonisms” (“Ewwww, he has along HAIRRRRR!”) and other crap I have to put up with on a daily basis. You queens can go fuck yourselves…there are ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE more bi men out there than “100% gay” men…Kinsey proved that beyond all doubt in the 1960s. And yeah, we vote, pay taxes and support the economy. Bitches like Firestein do more harm than good in the grand scheme of things, and I despise them. Oh, about the “hookup site phenomenon?” Keep doing that crap…you’re destroying everything that luminaries like Harry Hay and Morris Kight worked so hard to build for us from 1948 onward. You’re destroying the fabric of any society…social interaction. Go into ANY bar these days…a bunch of Abercromie-wearing twinks getting double chins cruising on their iPhones (I have an Android) while ignoring anyone within the establishment, sometimes rudely so. Just know this…it wasn’t you guys as a group (total queers are only <1% of the general population…politically powerless), but US…the bi guys out there…who've been supporting things all the way to the SCOTUS decision. It would NOT be a good thing if you keep pissing us off, because, sooner or later, we might pull the "support plug" on you. THEN what will you do? After all, we don't NEED you anymore…being bi is "cool" now…and we're almost always reliably neg! So why should I pay your $1300/mo Truvada bill through my taxes? Hmmmm?
AntBee
@DeserTBoB: Damn, dude!
Celtic
@DDstar1me: The fact you are “fem” is who you are and you have embraced it proudly. The point I was making which was missed by so many who decided to “take me on” is how too many translate being gay into being a sissy, non-masculine male. Being fem does not translate into being a sissy, at least not in my lexicon. It is not a negative.
The reason many gay male athletes hesitate to come out is because of the negatives associated with being gay. I detest the term “straight acting” because it telegraphs an image. I also find it offensive when the “curiosity seekers” ask, “Who’s the man in your relationship?” That communicates the all too typical formula of binary relationships, revealing profound naivete about sexual behavior.
Gay soldiers demonstrate that “male prowess” which “Atticus” takes as an offense. Some of the fiercest Warriors in history were homosexual, including the Spartans (which today many Greeks hope none of us will remember). I spent the 1980s serving on boards for gay rights; the 1990s writing gay columns, never using a pseudonym. I see the term “sissy boy” simply as perpetuating the negative. We have moved far forward from when I came out nearly 50 years ago.
AtticusBennett
@DeserTBoB: or you could take a deep breath and do what gay men like me do – put yourself out there. you should do a youtube video about being bisexual.
your comment about Harry Hay is odd….you think he’d have a problem with “hookup culture”? the guy freakin supported NAMBLA. yeeeeesh.
but anyway, Bi-Visibility is what’s lacking. I, as a gay man, support and stand alongside my bisexual brothers and sisters.
perhaps you’re ready to join the Visible world? feel free to post your youtube link to your own videos where we can see you passionately talk about your experiences as a bisexual on here 🙂
Celtic
@DeserTBoB: Being “bi” means you get to taste all the candy, so to speak. Our Puritan foundations simply cannot understand that fluidity of sexuality. Spot on, DeserTBobB!
AtticusBennett
@Celtic: so male prowess means we have to carry guns and be violent? Odd.
interesting – why can’t you SHOW yourself if your such a strong manly man man?
“The reason many gay male athletes hesitate to come out is because of the negatives associated with being gay.”
that means eliminate the idea that being “effeminate” is a negative. #DUH
many gay male athletes don’t come out because they care too much about the opinions of anti-gay morons.
you can’t blame the “effeminate kid” for coming out years before the Athlete did – the “effeminate kid” was more of a MAN than the closeted athlete is.
you don’t need to be a violent soldier to have “male prowess”, but you most certainly can have ZERO “male prowess” if you’re an Anonymous Internet Trolling Coward.
DeserTBoB
@AntBee: Woke you up, perchance?
DeserTBoB
@Celtic: @AtticusBennett: Oh, we’re doing workaround, using the gay hookup sites. There are BI hookup sites in Australia and England already. We network and do exactly what we need to do to find each other. Increasinly, I find myself eschewing the whole “gay scene” for a BBQ with some bi buds. With the exception of some very longtime good friends from back in the disco era, before everything went to absolute shit in ’81, I find the current crop of gay men post-pandemic to be little more than automatons.
AtticusBennett
@DeserTBoB: fantastic. A BBQ with your fellow openly-Bi buds would make a GREAT first youtube video! think we can see one before the end of the month?
you can call it BiBQ, 😀
DeserTBoB
@AtticusBennett: I’m “out there” quite enough, TYVM. My life’s NOT ABOUT BEING GAY…OR BI. My life’s about BEING ME and what I’ve done with my career, my talents, my family AND my sexuality. Sexuality is part of me, not ALL of me, as many 100% gay guys are wont to do. Keep taunting the right wing in this country with your being “out there” on YouTube and Facebook and all that…you’ll keep pissing them off, and, being a democracy…well, you know what happens next…you get some homophobic morons like “Doctor” Bendover Carson, corporate disaster Carly Fiorina, or “The Frump” winning the GOP nomination. Right now, you have the sympathies of a majority of the voting population. You want to fuck that up? Just keep rubbing your J-Lube in their faces….you’ll get there! Oh, any Harry Hay? He was goofy in some regards…but he founded Mattachine, and THAT started the whole Gay Lib movement…in 1948. His longtime lover, Will Geer, protested to him about his idea of Mattachine, saying “Harry…WHY? It’s only about SEX!” Hay knew there was more to it than that and forged on. Hay was right on that principle idea. Yeah, well, NAMBLA was a major fuckup, but so was his idea of forming a “union for homosexuals.” Let’s see…if you want a union card in the Homosexuals International Union, do you have to be a bottom, and the top’s the employer….or what? Not everyone with one solid, good idea has nothing BUT those. Look at Einstein and his “double-lift airplane wing.” FAIL!
AtticusBennett
@DeserTBoB: everything went to shit in ’81? ok. that’s before i was born.
soooo….curious….. maybe you’ve “eschewed the gay scene” because….you’re in your fifties? and bars and clubs aren’t as appealing, because….you’re in your fifties?
but hey – i’d love to see your Fiftysomething Bi BBQ. it would actually be very enlightening for everyone. get your camera out for the next one!
AtticusBennett
@DeserTBoB: no gay person is defined by being gay any differently than another.
we’re all defined by it to the exact same degree; no more, and no less, than any other gay person.
but thanks for proving it – you’re not the confident secure man you wanted people to think you are.
rather than showing yourself, thus giving BI VISIBILITY, you give a coward’s excuse to stay anonymous and hidden.
i don;’t think of my being Out There as “taunting the right wing”, but empowering others to live an open life. clearly, you still live in fear of The Right Wing.
you poor man. your balls clearly never dropped.
you essentially just said “all you OUT GAYS are the reason people hate gays!” HA!
And your cowardly anonymous closetedness is the reason bi guys like “you” don’t have visibility. suck on that, if your dad will let you 😉
DeserTBoB
@AtticusBennett: Bars aren’t appealing to me for the simple fact that the post-pandemic crowd is a bunch of socially inept goofs, the music sucks (KILL TAYLOR SWIFT….NOW!) and they’re basically not any fun like they were before things went to shit…and to shit they DID go after everyone started dying. I gave up counting at 212…couldn’t take it anymore, and I left. Oh…and the meth problem in the gay community today is a HUUUUUGE problem that no one wants to even TALK about. All in all, a fail.
Jaroslaw
@DeserTBoB: Nambla doesn’t have anything to do with Gay men anymore than Swingers associations represent most of heterosexuals. Nambla perhaps much less since pedophilia is about boys before secondary sex characteristics kick in. Boxturtle Bulletin has an excellent article about it. Not sure what you’re talking about “rubbing J-Lube” in their faces. Gays do not control the media. For example, I’ve been to many pride parades and 99% are NOT bare assed men in chaps. But that is always the photo that the right wing trots out to disparage gays as a group.
Jaroslaw
@alphacentauri: Nothing you’ve said invalidates how Firestein describes himself. You keep repeating that he is a biphobic bigot, which does NOT explain why he can’t describe himself as a sissy. As to movies; Boys in the Band must be viewed as a product of it’s time. If you know history, which you apparently don’t, Boys was the first or one of the first movies where the Gay character didn’t die a terrible death or be shunned completely from “normal society”. There’s more, but I hope you get the drift.
AtticusBennett
@Jaroslaw: for you , my brother 😀
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxGTr7aVO0E
Zenguy
@Celtic:
While it represents a segment of gay culture, I cringe a bit when men are inherently portrayed as effeminate because of their sexuality. Our diversity is equal to that of straight men. Not all gay boys wear lipstick or act like the typical stereotype. There is enough of that narrow representation in popular culture. It’s time to give equal representation to men who shatter those concepts.
DeserTBoB
@Jaroslaw: I never said NAMBLA has anything to do with gay men, but, due to the riling up the right wing, most Republicans believe that we’re all pedophiles now. Harry Hay made some goofs early on that @alphacentarui correctly points out. And yes, “BITB” was a groundbreaking movie IN ITS TIME. We’ve all moved on since then.
AtticusBennett
@Zenguy: care to show who you are and shatter the stereotype?
here’s the deal – the stereotype that needs “Shattering” is that “effeminate men” are somehow worthy of derision.
FML – when you go online you see guys typing out how much they want “people to know that gay guys can be manly man man macho masculine” whatevers, but never show THEMSELVES.
#irony
@DeserTBoB: we’ve moved on from The Boys in the Band? funny – the character of Alan, (highlighted in the video i posted….) sure sounds like a lot of Commenters….
Jaroslaw
@DeserTBoB: I’m not hanging you out to dry, but be open minded – reading your entire paragraph, I don’t see how one could interpret the NAMBLA part any other way. Yes, it is absolutely true the Republicans think all Gay guys are pedophiles, but they would think that with or without NAMBLA and as I said earlier we don’t control the media. I can’t emphasize that enough. I mean, I’ll never be on the news. I contribute to my community, volunteer, live a very unremarkable life, work a government job. I do not fly the rainbow flag outside my house. That said, I don’t think change ever occurred without making waves, do you?
DeserTBoB
@Jaroslaw: WE made waves in the ’70s, right after Stonewall, remember? I marched in the earliest PRIDE events, when they were mostly about social justice and political awareness and not some drunken orgy of bad drag queens and asses hanging out of chaps, was heavily involved in the No on 6 campaign (Briggs Initiative) in CA, got active in both ACT-UP and APLA in the early ’80s. Yeah, I made waves, but the GenYer over there just can’t shut his piehole long enough to listen or consider all that, now, can he? This is why I don’t associate with anyone post-pandemic…they just don’t get it and are VERY selective about history. “Those who don’t know history are doomed to repeat it.” —George Santayana…and I fear @AtticusBennett and his contemporaries, if they don’t wise up, are going to fulfill Santayana’s prophecy quite well. In re the “NAMBLA paragraph,” go check out @AtticusBennett ‘s post and it’ll make better sense. Making waves is the only way to get things to start happening…and we did…did we EVER.
Jaroslaw
Missed the part about Harry Hay supporting Nambla. (Did he really? YUCK). Anyway it makes sense now, so all I can say is oops. And I’m younger than you but older than Atticus who apparently thinks anyone over 50 doesn’t know anything. Too bad. As you say, they will learn (hopefully) and pay a heavy price for their mistakes.
DeserTBoB
@AtticusBennett: You’d be BORED TO DEATH of a video of a bi guys’ BBQ…grilling some buffalo burgers and Dodger Dogs and watching the ballgame on the big screen out by the pool…JUST LIKE ANY OTHER GUYS OUT THERE who aren’t buried in what passes for “gay society” these days. Oh, and I’m not “out” enough for you? I’m posting on this thing. I’m all OVER Facebook with my past. My family knows, my wife knows. My friends mostly know. I was in three of the sad excuses for “gay bars” left in LA last night, taking stock of the crowd and having a couple of beers, watching all the twinks get double chins staring at their iPhones. SO WHO GIVES A FUCK WHAT YOU THINK? Your rantings are senseless to me, and you’re obviously quite tonedeaf to political reality and history, both. I note who you danced your ass around my “meth problem” comment, as well…hmmmmm.
DeserTBoB
@Jaroslaw: That’s the sad part…the homework’s already been done. My generation did the paving of the a road hewed out by Hay and others in the ’40s. Now, these idiot GenY/Zer are running all over it with a Cat D10 with rippers on the back. There’s no need to “deconstruct” everything that we accomplished form 1969 until now…but it’s not just the gay ones…the whole of the GenY/Z/Millennial generations are proving to be some of the most clueless EVER. That’s what you get when you raise generations of kids by handing them a trophy for every time they fuck up. Trust and believe…MY kids don’t act that way…when THEY’D fuck up, they’d get taken to task!
Jaroslaw
Oh, I know the homework’s been done, I was simply concurring with you. And in addition to Meth and everything else, why are so many Gay/Bi men (using the word loosely) not using condoms? I truly cannot understand that. The best revenge on the heteros is to live long and be successful, not killing yourself. Sad,sad sad sad………….
Jaroslaw
last comment – this is all kids, American kids have the highest self esteem but the lowest test scores of the industrialized nations. We truly will crumble from within. And those dumb asses at FOX are worried about Gays and communists……..
DDstar1me
I strongly believe that all the issues we have within the gay community can be resolved with a dam good BLOWJOB.
Jaroslaw
DDStar – you are brain dead if you think that is funny. You know Germany was a Gay Mecca in the 1930s, the Nazis came to power and we were all put in concentration camps. Don’t think it can’t happen here.
DeserTBoB
@Jaroslaw: It can. Just look at the current occupants of the GOP Clown Car in the debates.
DeserTBoB
@Jaroslaw: Jeebus, did you see that latest stat? 88%…I’m NOT kidding…of gay men say they didn’t use a condom during their last round of anal intercourse. 88%!!!!! What the fucking bloody HELL…. I’m neg, will die neg, and will live into my 90s or 100s. More than 50% of the guys I used to run with in the ’70s are already DEAD. Does being 100% gay mean that you have a mental defect in processing the seriousness of the HIV-1 virus, and of the damage that Truvada and other antivirals cause? Empirical data seem to prove it so.
DDstar1me
You guys are right. I apologize. That was my failed attempt to lighten things up a bit.
Jaroslaw
@DeserTBoB: I don’t know if Gay guys are damaged internally more or by society. It certainly can’t be as hard growing up Gay for most now as it was prior to the 1990’s. I just don’t know. Some say HIV drugs prolonged life quite a bit, so AIDS wasn’t an “immediate” death sentence. The answer is probably a mixture of things, like most complicated societal problems. I guess I would like to think this would all go away when society completely accepted homosexuality.
Jaroslaw
yes, I saw the stats. unreal.
Jaroslaw
@DDstar1me: Thanks for your apology.
DeserTBoB
@Jaroslaw: I was at a PRIDE rally in 1982 when Morris Kight said in his speech, “We will defeat this disease THROUGH OUR BEHAVIOR!” Uh…then again, maybe NOT. That drove me out of the gay lifestyle thing right then and there when I saw these guys, instead of “wrapping it up,” heading to the tubs and taking on 20 anon dicks in one night. “SEE YA! DON’T THINK IT HASN’T BEEN NICE….BECAUSE IT HASN’T!” —-Bugs Bunny I took Morris’ advice. I was one of VERY few. The pervasive comeback at the time? “Oh…they’ll come up with a cure….” Yeah…uh huh….right. It still causes tears to think about the ones who did say exactly that whose memorials I attended. Meanwhile, Gilead Life Sciences is gouging the hell out of EVERYONE for big bucks for their stop-gap Truvada and others. Anyone else smell a criminal conspiracy?
Chris
I really like the father’s advice: “Don’t sneak. Because if you sneak … it means you think you’re doing the wrong thing.” Before its time, he was telling his son to be out and proud. And it’s good advice for anyone and everyone. I like the old man; he gives a lie to our stereotypes of -phobic farmers.
Jaroslaw
@DeserTBoB: The movie “The Trip” makes some very good points, in a way commentary and discussion seem not to do for many. If you saw it, these guys met, but broke up and the one, Tommy got AIDS. The movie didn’t indicate if it was via promiscuous sex but either way, they reunited and by this time Tommy was very sick. The boyfriend I forget his name now, Alex? went to Mexico to bring Tommy back to the USA, by this time it is 1980s. But AIDS was new and he wasn’t allowed on the plane. Gays were widely viewed as cesspools of disease. With 88% not using a condom, what are we doing to dispel this notion and why indeed do we not care about ourselves?
DeserTBoB
@Jaroslaw: What we’re doing is reinforcing ALL the negative stereotypes that homophobes have placed upon us for decades, even centuries…and we’re doing that to OURSELVES. I’m the oddball, for sure, and I’m sure you are, as well, probably because we have the wisdom of age and having seen the utter devastation. But I can take you to any of the hookup sites RIGHT now, and fix you up with a poz “breeder” in a matter of minutes. The young ones’ rationale? “I get pozzed up now, then I don’t have to worry about it anymore.” Most infuriating comment I heard about this? “Getting “pregnant” is liberating in a way.” WHAT THE FUCK…. This is SOOO wrong on SOOO many levels, I can’t even describe it.
robho3
Wish I had a parent like that when I was a kid.
Jaroslaw
@AtticusBennett: Sorry to be so late – I didn’t notice this was addressed to me – there was such a flurry of comments. Yes, I have seen this movie, thanks for the clip. Who is the narrator. Love the scruff and chest hair…… 🙂
Jaroslaw
@DeserTBoB: I think I saw that Poz thing in QAF – one of the students wanted the positive teacher, Ben to have sex with him. Well, maybe I was smart or just too romantic, but I always wanted to be married. Probably from religion! I KNEW that being Gay was okay with God, but I still felt very afraid and disgusting. The head says one thing and the heart another, I guess. Anyway, age had nothing to do with it, I just thought being promiscuous was a way of not valuing your most precious gift of self, your own sexuality. Now, I’m not so uptight about it, but all I can say is that joke – the definition of a slut is anyone having more sex than you are!
alphacentauri
@DeserTBoB: I wonder the same thing why so many gay men are extremely self destructive and choose to bareback, and think that Prep/Truvada will keep them HIV neg or STD free and that they can do it bareback with anyone like it’s the 70s. Then you have heterosexuals who have the mentality that “I don’t need to worry about HIV I’m hetero!” and they think they can bareback with anyone as well.
DeserTBoB
@Jaroslaw: “I just thought being promiscuous was a way of not valuing your most precious gift of self, your own sexuality.” That’s the reaction a normal, well-balanced individual would have, and most any clinical psychologist would agree on that point. This goes back to your earlier supposition that there’s been damage to self-worth done by family, society, religion, et al. I shut down and moved away from LA because I valued my life more than being “cool” do a bunch of loons in a filthy bathhouse. People can deride my “snootiness” all they want, but that’s the way the cards fell for me. By that time, I’d already held a lover in my arms as he passed from PCP, soooo, I knew…this is for keeps, not some fucking game. That one experience made not even touch another man for ten years.
alphacentauri
@DeserTBoB: Watch out, some troll here will claim that you’re being “sex negative” or “slut shaming” or whatever other silly PC term they use.
DeserTBoB
@alphacentauri: Oh pleeeeeease…do NOT get me started about gays and the PC infedtation they have, which started out as a side effect of being denigrated by society at large and later wound up being a “custom.” I’m THE most politically incorrect guy to ever have butt sex, and don’t give a shit what my detractors think. Things are as they are…anyone too stupid to see that hears from me in a MOST unpleasant way.
ADVISORY: All events taking place outside my man cave or grill on the patio will be suspended in time at 1730 PST due to the start of the Dodgers/Mets game at Citi Field. Time may once again continue after the last out. This also includes all attempts to contact me via internet, telephone, telegram, carrier pigeon, law enforcement or hydrogen bomb..
alphacentauri
@DeserTBoB: According to troll AtticusBennett AKA Raymond Miller, you’re not “out” (in his opinion) unless you have a youtube video/channel telling everyone how you’re bisexual, gay, lesbian, and you don’t make your entire life about nothing but being gay, bisexual/LGBT. Atticus/Ray Miller likes to troll total strangers thinking that their fathers are to blame for their issues when Ray Miller clearly has issues with his own dad otherwise he would not project this onto total strangers or their parents he knows nothing about.
DeserTBoB
@alphacentauri: Yeah, I got that from him immediately, as I have from any number of disturbed queens over the years…”EWWWWW! You fuck PUSSY! I’m not TOUCHING your dick!” (Okayyyy, even though YOURS most likely spurts charged loads, and THAT’S OK….RIIIIGHT?) I’m so fucking sick of this shit, you have NO idea how much.
alphacentauri
@DeserTBoB: Yes Atticus/Raymond Miller certainly is a queen, in another topic on this site he wrote about going on Grindr and hooking up with random strangers, and I would not be surprised if he has barebacked or even used meth as both are extremely common.
Minyassa
@Celtic: You and a lot of others here are missing an important point: this story in no way perpetuates the myth and image that gays are girlie men. I’m not sure if it was just hard to catch or if it is hard for people to think outside of the current year, but this story was told about, and from the point of view, of the 1950s. At that time, that’s what people believed, and it’s what a lot of gay boys and men believed, and most importantly, it’s what the storyteller believed back then. This story is told in the voice of the era wherein it takes place, it has not been translated into 2015-ese. So it’s not perpetuating anything, it’s a period piece.
youarekiddingme
To maybe clarify something…in 1982 AIDS was listed as: “gay compromise syndrome” and “gay related immune disease (GRID), acquired immunodeficiency disease, gay cancer, community-acquired immune dysfunction.” At that time it was not known that the disease was spread through unsafe sex. That discovery was made (along with blood transmission/tranfusions) in 1983. Someone made a comment about gay men continuing to have unsafe sex in 1982 after knowing about AIDS being transmitted by unsafe sex. Not true.
I am a “100% gay male” and some of the more vapid generalizations about gay men are not appreciated. I don’t make those generalizations about any other group and I don’t appreciate them being made about me either.
Much work was done in the beginning…Stonewall and before, but there has been great work since (I’m no kid myself). Same-sex marriage is the result of some of the younger generations of the LGBT Community. Look at the surveys, the majority of the community wasn’t in favor of using the term “marriage” until the 1990’s.
Try not to be bitter. I think some of the younger folks would do well to learn from the people who have been there but only if we’re willing to offer it to them. I’m not talking about bars or bathouses but community centers, schools, LGBT Support Organizations, Pride, etc. They will be “doomed to repeat history” but only if we don’t teach them about it…We won’t be around forever!
DeserTBoB
@youarekiddingme: All well and accurate. However, I picked up my first write-up in the Los Angeles Times about the “gay cancer” in mid-1980, and by ’81, after the acronym GIDS was affixed to the syndrome caused by the HTLV-3 (later HIV-1) retrovirus, it was starting to eat up gay and bi men in Long Beach and Los Angeles, and by ’83 it was killing the male populations of West Hollywood, Long Beach and Silverlake at a terrifying rate. When I read of the “gay cancer,” it was pretty obvious to me through deduction that the only way such a disease could be spread between men where the same diseases was NOT being spread to nearby casual contact individuals of any sexuality would be through either ingestion of bodily fluids either orally (later disproved fairly early on) or anally, the latter making perfect sense, since by then, “booty bumping” was a favored method of ingesting cocaine and, later, methamphatmine, as well as ketamine, hydrocodone and other party drugs of the era. If those drugs’ molecules enter the bloodstream through the membranes of the lower colon with such ease, it’s a lead pipe cinch that a virus could. After all, I learned early on that bottoming for a guy with a cold meant that I’d be sick in bed for a couple days in short order. Although not in medical except as a patient, it became VERY clear to me that ANY sexual contact with other men was potentially deadly, as did several others, but not nearly a majority. The clue that it was blood borne was verified by the comorbidity of the disease with two principal behavioral features…homosexual activity and IV drug use, even though the drug users were straight OR gay OR bi. Some more recent studies also hypothesize that IV drug use was the bridge between the worlds of heroin addicts and gay men at large, since IV drug use (“slamming”) was growing in popularity in the gay community as a means of getting a better high off of crystal methamphetamine. Enough on that; what you write is long verified to be true. Regarding the second issue, I have been told by GenY/Z/Mills to “shut the fuck up and die already” by some, both to my face and through various blogs (usually associated with hookup sites), and that they “do not want to even HEAR about it.” The same denial that caused the pandemic in my generation is alive and well with them, but is far more widespread now than it was then. Add the new phenomenon of “bugchasing” by the GenYs and younger, and I’m terrified of THEM. Of course, generalization is easy, and some DO pay attention and are willing to learn, but at an even lesser rate than young ones (like me) did back in our youth. Back in the ’70s, while I was a hot 20-something, I was told in short order to respect the old queens and learn from them, and I did. What they imparted onto me has served me well over my lifetime. However, don’t expect the current crop to have ANY such respect except in rare circumstances…they indeed “know it all.” Just ask them. Oh, and why am I writing this now? The Dodgers are losing to the Mets 7-3.
youarekiddingme
@DeserTBoB: I agree pretty much I guess. I just don’t bother talking or trying to “educatate” over a blog. People can claim to be Jesus Christ on a blog. In a room, face-to-face, it’s kinda tough to be as big an asshole to the person who’s conveying information to you…I have never been told to “shut the fuck up and die already” or anything of the sort to my face…can’t understand that one at all. Maybe context? I have no idea on that one…I’ve talked to lots of young people. Not all were receptive either. None were disrespectful (like that). I’ve talked to mixed crowds (not just gay/bi). Most of the young gay/bi have been really receptive to me. I/we try to talk on an equal footing with them. We’ve even made it a dinner gathering when possible.
Like you, I’ve had many different experiences in life. I happened to serve in the military (in combat) and I get lots of questions concerning that now that the military is open to service. Big difference than when I served (in the closet). These young people really need to “see the light and carry the torch” that others have carried before. I won’t give up on them. Now that I’m retired, it’s something that I’m committed to doing.
alphacentauri
@DeserTBoB: Well said.
alphacentauri
@DeserTBoB: Indeed it was true that a lot of gay and bi men in the early 80s, or even mid and late 80s thought that HIV would not happen to them or that there would be a cure…much like the younger guys today who have this mentality who take Prep/Truvada like it’s candy and bareback like it’s the 70s and think they’ll be fine. I used to write about safer sex a lot and talk to younger people about it; but most are like you said know it alls and they do not want to hear it, and I figure it’s 2015 going to be 2016 soon, and everyone by now knows how not to get HIV or other STDs and how to have safer sex if they make the personal choice to do this.
DeserTBoB
@youarekiddingme: I’m so very thankful for both your military service and your fire to spread the word effectively to the younger generation. Yes, my failures have been contextural; blogs are of limited use on all subjects, and trying to converse to a group of 21 year olds jonesing from meth withdrawls doesn’t make for a nice, tidy venue. I hold your service in especially high esteem, as I lost a stepson in the sandbox on his fifth deployment.
youarekiddingme
@DeserTBoB: I’m very sorry to hear of your stepson. It is such a terrible loss in war…no words can ever console you for such a tragedy. My heart goes out to you.
Perhaps you are right about dealing with the younger generation. It can be contextual. Maybe that is the “reason” I’m here…who knows? I’m going to continue to try. If you can touch one person. One mind. One soul. My sister is a teacher and that’s all she ever hopes for is one…
Oh, btw, on one of the other discussions, I was a bit short with you. I want to apologize here. I will do so on that space as well. Just frustration I guess. Please try to forgive me and I will correct that statement momentarily…Thanks…
DeserTBoB
@youarekiddingme: No apology needed. I tend toward being curt and opinionated; some correction is in order from time to time. But, as I think I stated earlier on and as you confirm, loss is a terrible thing in any war, either against an enemy on the field of battle or a bug. The latter war I gave up counting at 212 victims that I knew personally, an inordinately high number, but it was mostly because of where I was located at the time (LA) and having been in the bar biz down there prior to that time. After that, it all became a faceless mass of lost lives. I explained this to an Afghanistan vet who was traumatized at losing five in his unit near Kanduhar, which is fully justified by any measure. I just offered, “Try losing 212….” and proceeded to explain. After contemplation, he said, “I cannot even imagine….” We’re still very close friends today.
Evji108
@Celtic: Dear Celtic, It’s great that you were able to be a butch gay boy growing up on the farm, unlike the more feminine gay man who was telling this story. I am sorry that you find the image of the sissy gay man something to be ashamed of and that you feel this image type should be, in your words “put to death”. The story of the Saint of Dry Creek is about a father who recognized that he had a feminine gay son and was able even in 1959 accept his son for what he was and tell him to not hide and sneak around because there was nothing wrong with it.
It is too bad that in 2015 you are ashamed of gay men who are not as masculine as you are. Not everyone is cut out to be a straight acting masculine man like you and you are basically saying they should hide what they naturally are and try to act like a masc straight man in order to assuage the view that society may have that gay men are effeminate.
There is only one thing to be ashamed of in this picture, and that is YOUR OWN INTERNALIZED HOMOPHOBIA and disgust that a man might have some innate feminine qualities and not hide them and be ashamed of them. You aren’t even half as evolved as the Dairy Farmer father in 1959. Sad.
animaux
@DeserTBoB: I am a member of the so-called Y generation (barely perhaps). I agree with many things you wrote (about promiscuity, drugs,..). But then I sensed a dose of homophobia in what you write, which is off putting. Seems like you have a problem with “100% homosexuality”.
Good for you for being able to get out of the scene the moment HIV arrived. Obviously you joined the straight world, got yourself a little wife and kids, which already guaranteed you respectability. That is all fine. But don’t think that makes you a better person. You are just a bi stereotype. (Don’t get offended by my words, since I realize you appreciate a bit non-PC)
You will probably dismiss me because I come from a younger generation, but you don’t know anything about me. Growing up gay in Eastern-Europe, in the middle of a genocidal war, probably gave me experience worth of several lifetimes.
Even though you are twice as old as myself, all the daily problems you describe sound to me like cries of a privileged little child. Sorry, that’s how it sounds. You are basically ranting against some kids you don’t agree with.
And that bi-superiority is horrible. In another post you say that if bisexuals withdrew their support we would all be doomed. That sounds like something written by a teenager. What’s wrong with you? Bi-visibility is a problem within the bi community, based on the fact that they are too often regarded as straight, because they choose straight lifestyles.
I agree with you that bixexuals are probably the largest group. But can that explain the prevalence of homophobia? You know how the fiercest homophobes end up being caught with their pants down? Because they hate that part of themselves? What if homophobia is a actually a bisexual phenomenon? THe Reality is that we have all been waiting for you to join us, leave ithe invisibility and stop hating yourself.
I mean, look at you. It seems that having it done with someone’s vagina is so important to you, that it gives you confidence and stability in your life. And in a way, it did. It saved you from HIV. But then again, it looks like a strong psychological shield as well. At least you are not that 100% guy, right?
But hardly anyone is 100%. Not even myself. But I don’t choose to obsess about it and base my life on the percentage. I’m gay and that’s it. I don’t need to consume every single aspect of everything. No need to complicate my life. There are other things more important than sexual orientation. Obsession with percentage leads you to compulsive thoughts and eventually to self-hatred, which you then project on 100% guys.
Also, I have never encountered an older, supposedly wise man flaunting his life, showing to everyone how good he has it, the way you do. Especially because most of it (including you being alive) came from your ability to fit into the straight model of living, which caused so much pain to so many people. Even the genocide I survived as a kid came from the straight formula, which is all about the living space (Lebensraum) for the offspring.
Jaroslaw
@animaux: I’m sure DesertBob can answer for himself, but lest you think he is the only one to have opinions about 100% Gay men, I’m 100% and I don’t understand why 88% of Gay men don’t use condoms with HIV being so prevalent and deadly. I don’t understand why our community can’t address the drug issue. Questioning these things is not homophobic. Having a wife and kids is “joining the straight world?” Most people want a partner and a most people of all stripes like children. Until fairly recently most people viewed Gays as pedophiles so having kids was off the table. Metropolitan Community Church didn’t even let children in the building when they started! Cries of a privileged child? What are you talking about? He’s passionate and curt, but his own admission but I don’t see an bi-superiority. He likes women and men. That is the definition of bisexuality. He offered his opinion and I want to be respectful of yours as well but pointing out the self destruction in the 100% community is not hatred, it is compassion.
Jaroslaw
I meant “by his own admission, not but”
Maleko
@Celtic: Being called a sissy has nothing to do with you actually being a sissy. Nothing makes you a sissy, presuming you think being a sissy is a pejorative term, unless you think you are a sissy. Can the macho B.S. and be a man.
Sluggo2007
If you’re gay, your parents most likely know it before you do. If you look back on your life, you’ll remember certain instances where your mother or father thought “Hmm, something’s different about him or her.” Many parents are in denial about this, but trust me, they know.
blackberry finn
@Celtic: Uh, nobody said all gay men are sissies. Some of us are. So what? Why are you concerned about a stereotype if “you’re a real man”? Real men don’t have to show their chest hair to the world to make themselves feel they’re better than “sissies”. Their confidence is natural and they accept all shadings of gender. It seems you’re projecting your own sore spot (read: insecurity) onto this article. Advice: Check yourself so you don’t wreck yourself.
Jaroslaw
@blackberry finn: There are already about 15 comments slamming “Celtic” from every angle. I hear your complaints and they are valid. But there is some validity to his too. When most people hear the word sissy, they DO think Gay men are weak. Since so many of us are unfortunately still in the closet, all the world sees is the effeminate ones. Frankly, it took me a long time to get over the fact that I would never be a macho man, I’m not effeminate either; and to discover that being out and effeminate takes a lot of strength, more than fitting in. But I see Celtic’s points. That’s all. And, since I don’t have hardly any, I LIKE it when men show their chest hair! (although I know that isn’t what you were driving at) 🙂
onthemark
“Sissy” was certainly a stereotype wa-a-ay back in 19-freaking-59, which is more to the original point. It may not be nearly as much of stereotype now, and that’s great, but it WAS back then.
(Anyway, how did we jump from the bad old days of 1959 to the supposed modern *necessity* of making YouTube videos?)
I’m not even sure I agree with the dairy farmer’s vague “advice.” From what I’ve read, every gay man in 1959 had to “sneak” around at least somewhat. Just to stay alive, to support oneself and to avoid prison. It wasn’t just a matter of getting beat up (or killed) by homophobes. It was also a matter of getting caught up in a homophobic legal system that considered nearly every aspect and/or display of homosexuality to be a criminal offense.
Jaroslaw
onthemark – You make some good points, but farm life wasn’t nearly as conforming as city life. For one thing, everyone knew everyone and second being the sheriff wasn’t about a huge salary or “making points” to get a promotion as in the FBI, CIA or a big city police force. You wouldn’t put your neighbor’s son in jail for life over THAT. Third, on the farm one could be discreet since there weren’t prying eyes on every corner. Who was going to see you in the middle of nowhere? But I get your point about “not sneaking” being vague advice. But the writer said it helped him so may be there was more to it?
onthemark
@Jaroslaw: Agree with you somewhat. I’ve heard a lot of stories from gay guys who grew up on farms – more recently than ’59, say the ’70s – and I see how there was more freedom in some ways. They generally reported having plenty of sex! Although I thought it always seemed like a small circle with a bit of a sinister vibe to it… a lot of ince*st for one thing (brothers and first cousins). (Ince*st seems to be yet another “auto-flagged” word in Queerty comments – who knew?) Maybe not THAT terrible for teenage sexuality, but when you get to early-20s sexuality it starts to get rather creepy. And what did a rural gay guy do after age 30, I wonder? (All of the guys I’ve discussed this with had moved to the big city in their 20s.)
And maybe Sheriff Andy wasn’t inclined to arrest you, but did he feel differently after you fucked his son Opie? 🙂
alphacentauri
@animaux: You have the typical attitude DeserTBob is describing. It is odd that 88% of gay men do not use condoms or practice safer sex, and people wonder why HIV is so prevalent among gay men and the LGBT community.
alphacentauri
@onthemark: Don’t forget all the chickenhawks or sick adults who should be in prison.
Jaroslaw
@onthemark: I don’t know all the particulars of rural gay sex, but rural adults did what city adults did – they either got married and fooled around on the side (or stopped) or remained “confirmed bachelors” who “never found the right girl.
onthemark
@alphacentauri: I don’t know how you guys even got onto that subject in THIS thread – no one was using condoms in gay sex in 1959! – but you do realize that 88% figure includes a lot of couples in long-term relationships? They are of course at much lower risk than your average 30-year-old slut doing 7 tricks a week.
Jaroslaw
Oh, forgot – you didn’t mess with the sheriff’s son! 🙂
DeserTBoB
@alphacentauri: Odd indeed. What it shows me is a VERY callous disregard for the safety of others, something that I just cannot wrap my head around very well.
DeserTBoB
@Jaroslaw: Ohhh, those farm boys! I have a significant amount of stories about THEM! Socially, they always tend to be “real people” rather than what happens when you pour everyone into a gay ghetto like WeHo or Sliverlake (now both dying) in LA, or, worse, the Castro in SF…they all strive to become clones of each other and view their fellow clones with contempt. Been there, seen THAT!
DeserTBoB
@Jaroslaw: One of my uncles was a “confirmed bachelor” who landed on Utah Beach in 1944 and worked a 30 years career for the City of Los Angeles. He lived a tortured life in the closet, as almost ALL gay/bi men did in those days, fearing the LAPD and the possibility that, if busted in some trumped up vice sting, his name and address would magically appear in the LA Times. Yes, that DID happen all the time up into the late 1960s. Another “euphemism” for being gay back in those days…he’s “nervous.”
alphacentauri
@DeserTBoB: My mom had a cousin who everyone knew was gay and he wound up moving to SF and sadly died of AIDS. Yes you are correct that bisexual and gay men in rural areas are more ‘real people’ or what people now call ‘down to Earth’, than urban gay and bisexual men. I have also lived in areas that were basically in the middle of nowhere where there was only one main LGBT bar and dance club and everyone even heterosexual people were a lot more accepting of LGBT people than people in urban areas were.
DeserTBoB
@alphacentauri: I’ve found that to be true, as well, mostly because everyone in a small town knows everyone else…AND their “business!” Drawback there is you can’t just go out and “get some” without everyone in town knowing about it by the next morning. Keeps you honest!
alphacentauri
@DeserTBoB: Yes that’s true it’s like that, I had friends I knew from bars socially who would assume that if two men left together that they were sleeping together or having sex and that was not the case.
1EqualityUSA
Cultural Studies 101, beautiful stuff. These are fascinating times we live in, a time of huge progress, merely by sharing and talking and hearing others.
The farmer is a hero who was likely hanging this thought on hooks long established. Perhaps even Biblical instruction, Romans 14:23 informed his thinking. (A man who is not true to his convictions, has doubts, an uneasy conscience, whatever is done without conviction of its approval by God is sinful.) The farmer may have been thinking in these terms. Either way, he gave autonomy to his son without judging him and that is very special. As for sissy vs butch, humans will always categorize others and then create subcategories beyond that. Living true is distinguishable. People are perceptive enough to know when one is true blue and are usually drawn to that strength, no matter the package. If you are true the world unfolds the way it’s supposed to and the people that are meant to be in your life will gravitate to you.