Well that didn’t take long. Just weeks after opening up the clergy ranks to gays, the Episcopal Church is seeing three homos nominated for the job. This is certain not to cause any controversy!
Two priests from from California and one from Minnesota join three heteros in nominations to become assistant bishops. Which means from here until December, where two new bishops will be selected,, liberals Episcopalians will be having it out with conservatives who don’t want no gays in their church!
Also, maybe we’ll hear from the global Anglican Communion, and its growing power base in Nigeria, about how the Rev. Canon Mary Douglas Glasspool of Baltimore, the Rev. John L. Kirkley of San Francisco, and the Rev. Bonnie Perry of Chicago (pictured, L-R) will bring eternal damnation upon their souls!
No surprise two of the nominations come from Los Angeles, that hot bed of homosexuality, where the gay-loving breeder Bishop J. Jon Bruno is running the show. We’re just looking forward to gut reactions from the dioceses of Central Florida and Dallas — who have broken away from the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America mostly because of their liberal colleagues’ pro-gay views — and the inevitable coming-to-the-defense-of statement from Bishop V. Gene Robinson, who, let’s face it, started all this madness.
How about we take this to the next level?
Our newsletter is like a refreshing cocktail (or mocktail) of LGBTQ+ entertainment and pop culture, served up with a side of eye-candy.
hardmannyc
You don’t mean “clergy.” They’re already IN the clergy. They’re about to join the “hierarchy,” or the “episcopacy.” dude, if you’re going to be writing headlines, get with the program.
hardmannyc
You got it right in the other head 🙂
M Shane
It ‘s no suprise at all that the Episcopal church, especially from a perspective here in Minnesota, would be attracting Gays. It’s kind of a joke in fact that all of the queens just love the pomp and ceremony of the Episcopalians. Also good music for singing etc. While most of the churches here have always wanted gays in thier congregations, PFLAG (sp?) is extremely proactive.
Indeed if you’re just an ordinary athiest or agnostic, you get left out.
The Episcopals have offered a real profession\al possition for lesbians, because they have given women positions for a long time.
Brian
It is still WRONG to be a Homosexual if you are Episcopalian. They have NOT changed their doctrine. Religion has defined Homosexuals and is the single source of ALL our pain and suffering.
Becoming a member of the Church or especially Clergy is AIDING AND ABETTING THE ENEMY. It’s also delusion.
Gay Christians = Oxy-morons
Quack
God, this article is just offensive. This site’s tone isn’t sarcasm, it’s self-hatred. Also, way too many exclamation points.
Neil
As a voting member (deputy) to the recent convention in Anaheim it is GREAT to see that the a secular gay sight is reporting this at all. Maybe some of your readers might be looking for a church and want to join one that is putting a lot on the line to be inclusive.
If they want the real story, accurately reported and without the stereotypical gay snark, please google this story. We really are moving faster than most main-line churches to get the Gospel right.
Republican
Neil,
Right on.
strumpetwindsock
@Brian:
You realize you are arguing the same position as the orthodox Anglicans who want no contact, no education and no change. Don’t you think working for reform (which is constantly happening) is a bit more realistic than the expectation that religion will some day magically disappear?
Judging people by what you think they are rather than taking the time to find out what is actually going on is no different than those who treat us the same way.
You don’t want to be “defined” by someone else? Then stop trying to tell people what they should and should not believe. It’s none of your business.
Brian
@Republican: RELIGION is the ONLY thing that makes Homosexuality WRONG. Religions like the Episcopalians are conning gays and lesbians with the “inclusiveness” LIE. The Episcopalians HAVE NOT change the doctrine that condemns homosexuals.
RELIGION is already disappearing. Young people (Under 30) are 35% “non-religious” and in 30 years the non-religious will be the new majority – so there is hope. As we get smarter as a society, we have less religion. The same thing happened to Greek Mythology.
RELIGION caused ALL the pain and suffering of Homosexuals. If someone is a “gay Christian” they are “aiding and abetting the enemy.” Hundreds of gay teens commit suicide each year – because they believe they are wrong. Religion made them wrong. So, if you are a gay Christian you have their blood on your hands.
TANK
@M Shane:
Oh, if the catholics were accepting, they’d be flocking to them. They love the ceremonies. Very showy. Church queens are disgusting.
Brian
@strumpetwindsock:
This whole con-job of “open” and “inclusive” Christian Churches tricks the members into believing they have changed doctrine and Homosexuality is Okay and it is NOT. It is still a major sin – like murder.
Plus, only 3,400 churches in the US are “welcoming” for gays and lesbians – this is out of 350,000 churches. It’s not even 1%. After 2,000 years less than 1% . . . yay!
So, it is both dishonest and insignificant.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Reform doesn’t happen, though, in mainstream christianity. This failed programme has been occurring for centuries (reform it from the inside, but for heaven’s sake, preserve the empty headed mythology which causes people to suffer!). It doesn’t work. And we can justify the toxicity and condemnation of religion on grounds separate (and perhaps even more important given the numbers) from lgbt equality.
TANK
@Brian:
First of all, sexism makes homosexuality wrong. However, christianity and sexism are as indistinguishable as mainstream christianity and homophobia are (most christians are homophobic).
Now, obviously you can be a homophobe and not a christian, but your chances of being a homophobe and an atheist are pretty fucking slim.
Neil
@Brian:
Sorry Brian that you have obviously had a really tragic experience with church. Fortunately there are some of us who believe that there is a God who is just as pissed off at what has been done in the name of religion as you are.
The religion that has been my community happens to be the Episcopal Church. Like any other family, my church family has changed because they love me. My small semi-rural congregation shows up at Pride in my area every year to support me. They get that God loves me “just as I am.”
My Bishop went to Albany to lobby for marriage equality. My Church’s General Convention made a clear statement that it wants to stay in the family that we call the Anglican Communion and witness to an inclusion that we know is just and consumately Chritian.
TANK
@TANK:
Throughout the planet, religion is what is used to justify sexism (one could can argue compellingly that it’s the primary mechanism) because for all of the largest religions on the planet, sexism is contained within them; as is homophobia. It’s how religion reproduces itself in thought like a virus–by attaching itself to other memes, and defining large portions of itself in terms of those memes.
Republican
Neil,
Good luck, but you are going to find it almost impossible to get through to someone who thinks all gay christians have blood on their hands. But don’t worry. People who think of things in such black/white terms are rarely worth the energy anyway.
strumpetwindsock
@Brian:
@TANK:
The only thing?
Maybe you should grab a history book and see how much Joe Stalin loved gays.
And TANK… I think I already pointed out to you the last execution for blasphemy was 200 years ago, and they don’t burn too many witches anymore. Many churches now allow divorce, women clergy, non-latin liturgy, activity on the sabbath, and there is the whole distinction between orthodox and reform churches which presumably means something.
You boys want to pretend that all organized religion is static because otherwise you have no boogeyman to blame things on. But the fact is you are passing off the same lie that the literalists and the fundamentalists are.
Really, TANK. I don’t know why you argue with DuttyBarb and YCHTT. Aside from the fact that they think us queers are going to hell you all cling desparately to a religious fundamentalist viewpoint.
Sorry to inform you that some people are actually working to change things for the better.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
I didn’t say the only thing. And maybe you should crack that history book. What did stalin did? He created a religion where he was god. No credible historian denies this. The cult of stalin.
Brian
@Neil: Tell the TRUTH Neil. The official belief of Episcopalians is that HOMOSEXUALS are WRONG. THAT has NOT CHANGED.
I have not had “an unfortunate experience with a Church,” I have had an EDUCATION. If I had to pick a “fairy-tale” I go with Snow White and the 7 Dwarfs. ALL Religions are “stories,” old stories with NO EVIDENCE.
But, I have evidence of what has made gay “wrong,” it is Religion. Nothing else does – not science, not nature, not the arts, nothing. Religion told a LIE about homosexuals and we must reject the lie and the institution. Religion also told lies about blacks, slavery and women (which is still there for most religions).
If you put your religious belief before your gay and lesbian brothers and sisters, then you are NOT on the side of Equality. Because gays will never be “equal” as long as we are wrong.
Put Equality BEFORE Religion.
TANK
And TANK… I think I already pointed out to you the last execution for blasphemy was 200 years ago, and they don’t burn too many witches anymore. Many churches now allow divorce, women clergy, non-latin liturgy, activity on the sabbath, and there is the whole distinction between orthodox and reform churches which presumably means something.
LOL! I guess it’s all wrapped up then, huh? You’re a fucking mongoloid.
TANK
Really, TANK. I don’t know why you argue with DuttyBarb and YCHTT. Aside from the fact that they think us queers are going to hell you all cling desparately to a religious fundamentalist viewpoint.
What lie am I passing off? That religion has killed literally millions of people in the last fifteen years on this planet? Please, be specific.
And what religious views do I hold?
TANK
Religion is static when it comes to causing harm. Christianity has caused great harm since its founding and continues to on through the present. Same with islam and judaism, and most religions.
Brian
@strumpetwindsock: WHEN will these religions CHANGE their OFFICIAL DOCTRINE. Even the United Church of Christ – with all their “Open and Affirming” bull-shit still kaes HOMOSEXUALITY WRONG. The Cathedral of Hope in Dallas has 4,000 members and they DON’T KNOW THEY ARE STILL WRONG.
PLEASE provide some formal documentation that any of these so-called “friendly” churches have changed ANY of their hurtful/hateful beliefs ABOUT homosexuals. Participation doesn’t change the belief or end the lie about homosexuals.
So, in my Opinion Vicki Gene is a Fraud. Ask the gay Bishop if it is no longer a sin to be homosexual and you will get a rambling 2 hour answer, but no “yes” or “no.” It is a marketing scam to mis-lead gays and lesbians.
strumpetwindsock
@Republican:
You are right. I have no illusion that I am ever going to change their minds.
Somebody has to stand up to this nonsense though, when they start badgering and ridiculing people who are doing something constructive, and not just bitching about how hard done by they are.
After all, there are other people reading this, If you don’t speak up people will think we all hold those intolerant and hateful beliefs.
@TANK:
Your interpretation of the bible, dude. You are as much a literalist as any hard-line fundamentalist, and you refuse to pay attention to what people actually believe.
You say you believe in nothing to avoid criticism, but in reality you invest a great deal of your ego in that nothingness.
strumpetwindsock
@Brian:
The United Church of Canada, our largest protestant congregation, blesses same-sex unions, plain and simple.
I’m sure TANK will now go on a rant about how we’re not a real country and that means nothing at all, but wait until the U.S. recognizes marriage equality. I am sure more of your churches will come out of the closet.
TANK
Your interpretation of the bible, dude.
But it’s not my interpretation of the bible. It’s many many hundreds of millions of people’s interpretation of the bible. I can’t help it if the bible gives the green light to genocide (numbers), stoning of women and children, beating women, and killing homosexuals. I suppose that the only valid interpretation for a christer like you would be the one that omits most of it…LOL!
You are as much a literalist as any hard-line fundamentalist, and you refuse to pay attention to what people actually believe.
But I don’t believe any of it. And it’s not me that is literal with respect to the bible–it’s millions of others. I think it’s a spooky poorly written fable.
You say you believe in nothing to avoid criticism, but in reality you invest a great deal of your ego in that nothingness.
I invest a great deal of time (not ego) combating memes that contribute to suffering of sentient beings. When women are stoned to death or have acid thrown on their faces justified by religions (and would not have happened if not for religion)–then I get a little pissed. That’s not nothing–the fairytale is just that–fiction…what it causes is human life. Not of you, of course, you seek to absolve it of all of its misdeeds, working feverishly to defend religion with the worst apologetics conceivable. And yet you say you’re not a christian? I find that absurd. You and dinesh d’souza should tour together. You recylce all of his terrible claims (e.g., atheism’s a religion, atheism’s stalinism, atheism’s communism, atheism’s capitalism, atheism’s marshmellows and rape).
Andrew
1% of the Churches in the United States are “Gay Friendly,” which means 99% are “Gay-Unfriendly.”
Remind me why gays and lesbians support religion? It seems to me religion is the enemy.
I’m only 23. I went to college. I wasn’t brain-washed into any type of religion. I had the chance to explore them and it was clear – they were all created for people who refused to think for themselves.
I agree with most of Brian’s posts. I think we should fight religion – it is the cause of all the hatred of homosexuals. I have never found another source for the hatred of gays. When I demand that my homophobic friends determine the “source” of their hatred of gays, they eventually reveal it was “what they were taught” and what their “religious” beliefs were.
So, I think Christians who come on this site and try to confuse the issue of “what made us wrong” are part of the problem. If they can’t even admit that Religion made us wrong – they are dishonest and not trustworthy.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
united church of canada? WOW! That has to be the largest church in canada, right? THat is, there is no other religion in canada with more members, correct? And canada…canada has less people than california. WHen will your dissembling end?
Andrew
@strumpetwindsock: BLESSING SAME SEX UNIONS is a BUSINESS DECISION and it does not CHANGE the HATEFUL DOCTRINE of Protestants.
OFFICIALLY, the United Church of Canada STILL MAKES HOMOSEXUALS WRONG. Look it up.
So, they’ll bless gay unions before ushering them off to Hell. How nice. Oh yeah, how much does this sincere “blessing” cost?
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Like it or not, we can get married here, even in the army. Some people are working to try to accomplish the same thing down there in the U.S., but frankly I think you are happier with things the way they are right now so you can bitch about how hard done by you are.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Yeah, that’s not a religious decision (if it were a purely religious decision in canada, you’d not be getting married). You can get married there because the state grants it. Got it?
Andrew
@strumpetwindsock: Are you an IDIOT? You want to be “married” by the institution that has spent 2,000 years “making homosexuality wrong?”
Believing “fairy tales” is delusional. Supporting the institution that makes homosexuality WRONG is just plain psychotic.
Have you found the official statement of United Church of Canada that says “Homosexuality is NOT WRONG?” Have the made that declaration yet? Or are they just taking your money and pretending to “accept” you? Abominations with donations are accepted, huh?
Neil
@Brian:
Yes Brian, you are right. The Canons of the Eiscopal Church need to be changed… But I am afraid that you are also wrong, and I don’t have to capitalize it. The Canons of the Epicopal Church say that everyone, regardless of race, gender… and sexual orientation are to be granted equal access to ministry. Many other provinces of the Anglican Communion are challenged by this. At this convention an attempt to add gender identity was replaced with “all baptized Christians. Because many of us are loathe to yet believe that all mean “all” it was defeated with the gracious acquiescence of of our trans brothers and sisters.
Your point is well taken that many churches are willing to accept our money and then tell us that we are sinners. That’s needs to change. Your answer is to yell and walk away. Mine is to stay and work within, as I have for 35 years, with Integrity.
I do not believe that I am wasting my breath in pointing out our differences. I believe that we are all children of God, called to live our precious lives to the fullest and in love for one another. I respect your opinion to disagree with me. I find it a great challenge to see God’s love in your anger… but I am called to do that. I am called to see the face of God in every human being. That includes Ghandi and Rush Limbaugh. That includes you.
I am reminded that, while many believe that the opposite of faith is doubt. Actually the opposite of faith is certainty. Those who are absolutely certain that theirs in the path.
We each need to constantly be willing to assess how we are making a positive difference in the world.
youcanthandlethetruth
Flouting God’s Word is not “reform”.
The Episcopalian Church has lost its way and is losing members rapidly.
The Bible makes it clear that homosexuality is a sin and that marriage is between one man and one woman “whether you like it or not” (to quote Gavin Newsom the homosexuals’ twice-divorced poster boy).
Pretending that suddenly it’s ok to be gay is not the answer.
SM
@youcanthandlethetruth:
Well, that’s just groovy but religion is a choice and we don’t pass laws in the United States based on the Bible. It’s not the Law of the Land. Jesus never went around preaching against homosexuality anyway. FACT.
If you did not think you were on the losing side of this battle, you would not want to argue so much. It’s driving you crazy inside that the LGBT community will win in the end.
dsdrane
To say gay Christians have “blood on their hands” as one comment writer claims, is like saying African-Americans have blood on their hands for remaining in the U.S. once released from slavery. Indeed, many gays have left “the Church” and some former slaves did choose to emigrate to Africa, but others chose to stay…and fight. Rather than “throwing the baby out with the bathwater”, gay Christians refuse to blame God or even the idea of religion itself for the crimes that mankind has committed in the name of God and religion over the millenia.
The Episcopal Church, like any other, is a work in progress. Just like slavery and the role of women before it, the conversation about homosexuality is an evolving one…but one that I and many others believe is going very much in the right direction, if not nearly fast enough. Advocates for full inclusion of gays in the church are on the winning side of history, but being right isn’t enough; doubts and outright naysayers need to be convinced. And that takes time.
To those who think the effort is worthless, I say fine — go fry your own fish. Certainly your time can be better spent working for positive change in other venues than tearing down the work of others.
For those who would like to read on their own (as opposed to being told here) what the Episcopal Church believes generally about human sexuality and any number of other topics, check out their A-Z Directory at their website: http://www.episcopalchurch.org/atoz_39055_ENG_HTM.htm
youcanthandlethetruth
@SM: We don’t pass laws based on the perverse behaviour of a tiny minority or people either.
Jesus never went around preaching against pedophilia either – so what was your point? He made it clear in Matt 19 that marriage is for one man and one woman, and God made it clear through His Apostle Paul, and many others, that homosexuality is a sin.
Instead of trying to redefine marriage and re-translate the Bible why don’t the Episcopalians be honest and say they no longer care what God’s Word says?
As for your hope that the homosexual community will win in the end, all evidence is to the contrary.
30 states including CA have amended their constitutions to protect marriage from violation by homosexuals. Four more states will join them in November. 12 other states use the DOMA to protect marriage.
Raymond
One would expect at the close of the Age the developments we see worldwide concerning homosexuality, abortion, euthanasia, contraception, in vitro fertilization, embryonic cell experimentation, and the rise in unbelief. Just to focus on one: homosexuality. Homosexuality is an inversion of the natural order. TEC has left Christianity and it appears others will follow. The END is near.
edgyguy1426
Funny that they couldn’t do that for divorce. Protect marriage, this always makes me laff.
As far as being what he calls a Cristiophobe- why wouldn’t one fear anything that’s actively trying to harm you and undermine your way of life? And before you say “well the gays are trying to undermine MY way of life” – in this country you can go on living your way of life as you see fit- that’s all we want too.
I really can’t see the reason YCHTT posts here anyway, it’s not like there are gonna be any converts.
These ‘Protect Marriage’ groups have got to be the bigest scam going.. it’s a shame all the money being thrown at them isn’t being put to use for things that are more ‘christian’ – feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, etc. The only larger shame is that it probably comes from people that can ill-afford to spend that money and is not being used to ease the suffering in someone’s life. Sad.
youcanthandlethetruth
@edgyguy1426: I don’t expect any “converts” either but it’s worthwhile to have a righteous view expounded on here.
There’s no point in you all agreeing with each other and deluding yourselves that you have convinced everyone else.
M Shane
@Brian: While I’ve personally just seeered clear of anything related to religion. I’d as soon chew brillo pads as have to believe in more myth than gets pushed at me every day. I don’t mind if other people get together and plan something environmental or wear costumes or whatever. As long as they don’t get serious about messing with other people.
The obvious misfortune, it seems to me is that, by and large this country seems to have been ground ) for all of the space ships that brought the crazy cults from Europe-who they wanted to get rid of. I saw a figure , noting the people who claimed some kind of religious affiliation(serious or not) of %94. Where I live currently, in the Midwest, almost everyone goes top church gay or not. Our educational system is so crappy that no one has knowledge of anyother way to understand things than Religious mythology. Basically, untill we start educating people they will be cursed with these 16 th century crackpot ideas of what the world is about and how we can go forward(/) and all stay alive for a few more years.
dsdrane
Theologically, the Episcopal Church differs from more “conservative” or “orthodox” churches/denominations in that Scripture is but one leg of a “three-legged stool” — Tradition and Reason being the other two. It’s not enough to read “God’s Word”, especially given all the various translations that have sought to spin the original meaning(s) of the text over the ages to serve different times and situations. The texts, written over centuries, need to be interpreted and understood. Ultimately, this is always an exercise in subjectivity to one degree or another, and the Anglican approach has been to interpret through the lens of traditional understanding and current reasoning. It’s an active, hands-on approach that flies in the face of the caricature of a passive congregation being lectured to. It’s a living, breathing theology that doesn’t simply allow for thought; thought is required.
Some, outside the church, see this as a weakness. And, whereas they are certainly entitled to their opinion, I couldn’t disagree more.
youcanthandlethetruth
@M Shane: Why do you keep trying to convince yourself that all religion is “myth”?
Don’t you believe that Jesus existed, performed miracles and was raised from the dead?
It’s historical fact, just like the existence of Caesar, Napoleon or Lincoln.
Don’t you think it’s better to look for reasons to believe in religion rather than reasons NOT to believe?
Are you prepared to throw away salvation just to feel less guilty about your chosen homosexual lifestyle?
duttybarb
GAY CLERGY IS AS RIDICULOUS AS A STRAIGHT LESBIAN.
HOMOSEXUALITY IS CONSIDERED A SIN IN XTIANITY CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW IT MAKES SENSE THAT A GAY PERSON CAN WORK IN A CHURCH AS A CLERGY MEMBER.
THIS IS SUCH NONSENSE..EPISCOPALIANS ARE SO GOING TO HELL FOR THIS
youcanthandlethetruth
@duttybarb: Dutty you are absolutely right.
Thanks for adding a voice of sanity and reason.
damon459
Funny how we argue that religion is unfriendly there for we should avoid it and yet the military is anti-gay and yet we want to serve.
TikiHead
@youcanthandlethetruth: Yes, Jesus existed. They found his TOMB, and his family is buried with him, including his WIFE.
Ha, ha, ha.
duttybarb
To the people who believe religion is going away…its sad that you actually think that something that survived for two millenia will just vanish so Paul and Mike can feel less guilty about doing. We aint going nowhere dears.
Just because many Americans do not respect God does not mean that the rest of the world will turn their back to him.
Gays are a joke. They are a sinful and dangerous joke. Just like pedophiles and bestials..soon people will be asking for the rights to marry their pet poodles..after all “there is a connection” or “love is love”…maybe when that happens we can get the “gay clergy” to bless those unions after all a farce is a farce is a farce right?
Dis is too ridiculous to continue…just tell your “religious gay friends” that unless they change their lifestyles…all this is a big FAT JOKE!!! We will continue to pray for the Episcopalian church
duttybarb
Thanks youcanthandlethetruth.
These people do not realize that this is just one of the signs of the End times.
InExile
The Kabbalah does not consider Jesus God, just a good person.
Kabbalah — the world’s oldest body of spiritual wisdom — contains the long-hidden keys to the secrets of the universe as well as the keys to the mysteries of the human heart and soul. Kabbalistic teachings explain the complexities of the material and the nonmaterial universe, as well as the physical and metaphysical nature of all humanity. Kabbalah shows in detail, how to navigate that vast terrain in order to remove every form of chaos, pain, and suffering.
For thousands of years, the great kabbalistic sages have taught that every human being is born with the potential for greatness. Kabbalah is the means for activating that potential.
Kabbalah has always been meant to be used, not just learned. Its purpose is to bring clarity, understanding, and freedom to our lives — and ultimately to erase even death itself.
youcanthandlethetruth
@damon459: It only goes to prove that contrariness is an inherent trait of the homosexual condition.
To believe homosexuality is somehow normal, one has to ignore every major world faith, rebuke the natural order, re-invent the English language, redefine marriage and oppose the majority of the human race and their collective millenia of wisdom.
Yet still the homosexuals try to perpetuate their sad delusion!
youcanthandlethetruth
@InExile: If you want to place an ad here’s the link
http://web.blogads.com/adspotsfolder/ba_adspotsfolder_revision_create_shortcut?persistent_uid=bbbe5c68b9db8b7cf7e26c21fe9026ff
The price is $700
TikiHead
@duttybarb: I’ll try to explain: we have freedom of religion here, so if a Christian sect decides to accept gays, there will be no heresy trials, nor any punishment from Uncle Sam.
It’s the same reason you’re allowed to be a total shit-house lunatic, with no molestation from authority, religious or otherwise?
Is that clear?
TANK
@dsdrane:
You’re certifiable.
duttybarb
TikiHead….please honey the grown ups are talking..
InExile
@youcanthandlethetruth: It’s true Jesus performed miracles because he had mastered the Kabbalah. The Kabbalah does not discriminate against gay people like your so-called religion.
TANK
@Raymond:
You’re crazier, too.
This comments section has been overrun by insane religious wackos.
TANK
@Neil:
Ew…you’re not better than youcant or nuttylard.
InExile
@duttybarb: Your comments show ego which the Kabbalah says destroys your soul. You need to learn to resist.
TikiHead
@duttybarb: “Dis is too ridiculous to continue…”
Agreed! When can we expect you to fuck off and leave us alone in sinful, Hell-bound peace?
youcanthandlethetruth
@InExile: The Kabbalah is mostly about squeezing money out of people for it’s dopey merchandise and “classes”.
If you’re looking for a motivational speaker you’re better off going to a Tony Robbins seminar. Cheaper too. And you won’t get loads of follow-up cold calls.
TikiHead
@duttybarb: “TikiHead….please honey the grown ups are talking..”
Then why would you be involved, you childish, semiliterate sack of crazy shit?
InExile
@youcanthandlethetruth: Funny how those in denial resort to ridicule, that is your ego speaking. The Kabbalah teaches us to destroy our ego for our ego is what can destroy us.
TANK
nuttybarb’s a birther. Nuff said.
InExile
@TANK: These right wing extremists fringe groups always find a way to squirm into any conversation. The Department of homeland Security is watching these extremists groups, she better watch out.
TANK
@InExile:
LOL! I don’t think we have anything to worry about from a crackpot bigot like her. She’s totally alone and full of resentment and hatred as a result.
youcanthandlethetruth
@InExile: How much do I have to pay a month to destroy my ego with Kabbalah?
TANK
@youcanthandlethetruth:
you’re already on manhunt. You should know the dollar amount.
dsdrane
It’s really unfortunate that several posters in this comment thread are here merely to taunt. Above and beyond being insulting, they also serve to reinforce a hateful stereotype that is anything but “Christian” (or any other faith).
For anyone — religious or not — who’s interested in intelligent dialogue focussed on religion, gay people, and non-violent activism aimed at healing the rift, there’s an excellent site called Soulforce. http://www.soulforce.org It’s predominantly Christian, but there are plenty of aetheists, agnostics, and others from different faith traditions. As an organization, it works for freedom from religious and political oppression for gay people and has a very active, smart online community. I’m not active there anymore, so I have nothing vested in passing this along. It’s a great site, though…and they are well-versed in dealing with rowdy guests.
M Shane
No. 43 · youcanthandlethetrut: I don’t believe that Religion is a myth; It’s all too real. It’s an assortment of myths, all of which I would do better without. It’s enough that the governmentfor the last 8 years, sponsored mainly by religious fanatics, murdersed and ruthlessly tortured innocent peasants, many of whom just wanted peace. But NO! All of the religiofascists in the U.S wanted to charge into another Crusade (as Bush so aptly put it) and in effect make lots of money as they did in the first set of Crusades.
These kinds of things I don’t need in my bag of personal tricks and bugaboos. Nor do you. I think fantasies are great, the more poetic the better, just kept them to yourself or call them for what they are.
InExile
@TANK: She should be watched, those are the types that can resort to almost anything. With so much hatred in her heart, she could be Taliban, we really do not know???
dsdrane
@TANK:
And you’re aptly named.
youcanthandlethetruth
@M Shane: Sorry you are so closed-minded and intolerant.
You may never know what you’re missing until it’s too late.
TANK
@InExile:
She’s a harmless crank just like youcant. They take the frustrations of their failed aspirations out on those they believe are inferior to them. That’s why religion is so important to them–it lulls them into a false sense of self importance and “moral authority” that is congenial to helping them cope with their failed lives.
InExile
@youcanthandlethetruth: The cost is not the point, think of it as an investment in yourself and your fellow man. The Kabbalah can help you without a doubt.
TANK
@dsdrane:
You’re a deluded crank. Seriously. Just an irrational, ignorant crackpot. There are few things more aggravating and dispiriting than seeing a person who is violently oppressed by a group, cuddle up to them and try with all their might to justify that oppression. It’s disgusting.
TANK
@InExile:
….oy…even the gay ones are crazy.
TANK
inexile, did “madonner” show you the light about the “powers” of kabbalah?
InExile
@TANK: They both seem like the “end of times” types of people. I was on a flight several months ago and a woman next to me said “you know what’s coming don’t you?”, I said yes, yes I know the end of time right? She said yes, how did you know? I said just my luck I guess, my last seat mate on the last flight told me all about it! The moral of the story is try to get a seat by yourself if at all possible.
TANK
@InExile:
A third of americans believe that the end of days is going to occur within the next fifty years. They ardantly believe that jesus will return and save them…and they act like it’s going to happen, too. They don’t care about people or other sentient beings, nor the planet.
InExile
@TANK: Well, I did have the same teacher in Los Angeles, quite an amazing man. I do not go anymore of coarse being located on an island in the Caribbean now. It was definitely a learning experience.
TANK
That’s why the atrocious left behind series of books was so popular in the states…
InExile
@TANK: They do not vote either, politics is in the hands of God, is what they believe.
strumpetwindsock
@Andrew:
Before you keep on playing like a broken record, do a bit of research.
The 37th General Council, 2003, affirmed that “human sexual orientations, whether heterosexual or homosexual, are a gift from God and part of the marvelous diversity of creation.”
Is that clear enough?
strumpetwindsock
@strumpetwindsock:
And Andrew, I’m not a member of the United Church, but the fact that the congregation in our city has a rainbow triangle on the front of their church is a bit of a testament to them putting their money where their mouth is.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
It’s a business decision. He’s right about that. They should capitalize on the government granting that right. Religions have done it for thousands of years. But if it were up to the religious in canada, same sex marriage wouldn’t be a right you enjoy.
Andrew
@strumpetwindsock: You said: “The 37th General Council, 2003, affirmed that human sexual orientations, whether heterosexual or homosexual, are a gift from God and part of the marvelous diversity of creation.”
Affirming “orientation” is not formally saying that “homosexuality is NOT WRONG. That part of the doctrine is still there. WHEN will that stop making homosexuals wrong? Isn’t that the more important distinction?
I’m sure this Church also loves murderers, thieves and rapists, too. The damage to homosexuals is not whether or not we are welcomed at the Church – the damage is the LIE that homosexuality is wrong. That’s what needs to be fixed. Your Church is just “marketing to sinners,” in this case homosexuals, perhaps the biggest sinners there are.
So, your Church hasn’t actually done anything significant. Ask them to change the doctrine and stop lying about homosexuals.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
In the first place, if some of our institutions (not just churches, but business and government) have to be led by the nose to reform I don’t care, so long as it happens.
Would you have preferred to wait until the southern states voted to end slavery too?
What is important is that the next generation will grow up in a situation where those attitudes are no longer acceptable.
Of course you have the far more realistic expectation that churches will just magically disappear someday, like some homophobic rapture.
And as a matter of fact, the political change here happened in the courts, but many of the churches (including the United Church) DID vote to accept all sexual orientations, and marriage equality. Even in those churches which have not yet passed reform, minority support is steadily growing.
Thus far the churches are the only groups which have had a free vote to end discrimination against us. Our government was compelled to do so.
Andrew
@TANK: Tank gets it. It makes NO difference if a Church “welcomes” you but continues to make you “wrong” and a “sinner, deviant and defective.” That’s the problem. We’re NOT WRONG. Make them change that part.
Because we continue to allow Religion to define us, we will never have Equality. Especially if a Church places a “rainbow triangle on the door” and some would call that “progress.”
Put Equality BEFORE Religion.
youcanthandlethetruth
@Andrew: So you’re saying that the Church should just forget about the Bible’s clear doctrine on homosexuality and marriage, just to appease your conscience and make you feel better??
The fact is anyone who enters a church does so as a sinner, including homosexuals. Christianity is all about repentance for your sins, not redefining marriage or inventing doctrine to accommodate them.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Those aren’t religious attitudes, though. So shut up about the glory and the miracle of faith, okay? It’s embarrassing. Religion didn’t legalize same sex marriage in canada, and the united church of canada isn’t even canada’s largest religious denomination–the roman catholic church is. If it were held to a vote, you’d fucking lose that right because of the religious, not in spite of them. So you can put the horns and and drums down, and stop signing the praises of religion because of same sex marriage in canada–which they had nothing to do with and actually stood against.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
And further, it was a business decision. That makes them money to sanction same sex marriage. Where is the explicit united church of canada statement that homosexuality is not wrong according to christianity?
strumpetwindsock
@Andrew:
Are you kidding?
They accepted all human relationships, including homosexual, as a gift from god. They specifically let the GLBT community know we are welcome, they bless gay unions and have gay clergy. They are not trying to change us (as they do murderers and other sinners).
If that statement is not clear enough perhaps you should call them up for clarification, because you are being deliberately obtuse.
@TANK:
And if it was a business decision (in addition to an obvious spiritual one) then it was a decision to include people who support GLBT people and to let homophobes know that their beliefs are not welcome in their congregation.
I’m sure you have some sort of problem with that (of course, you are waiting for them to magically disappear with the rest of our oppressors), but I do not.
But making a couple of extra bucks cashing in on the gay marriage market? I’m sure that was a great windfall compared to the conservatives who left for other churches.
And as for the catholics, while the hierarchy are stuck in the middle ages, their membership is not quite so monolithic.
Again, one good example is the Italian referendum in the 80s which resulted in 80% support for abortion rights – in one of the most catholic countries in the world.
And all of our prime ministers who spearheaded abortion rights, repeal of the sodomy laws, marriage equality and same-sex partner benefits were staunch Roman Catholics.
So I’m not so sure I’d “fucking lose that right”, as you put it. Maybe I have a bit more hope than you that some people can learn to do the right thing. And given how things are changing, I think history is with that sentiment.
TANK
And if it was a business decision (in addition to an obvious spiritual one) then it was a decision to include people who support GLBT people and to let homophobes know that their beliefs are not welcome in their congregation.
And yet I’m sure there are homophobes in their ranks. Or do you deny this on faith, too?
I’m sure you have some sort of problem with that (of course, you are waiting for them to magically disappear with the rest of our oppressors), but I do not.
? The problem I have is that moderates don’t change minds and win over fundamentalists. They accomplish nothing, and indirectly support the same system of dogma (in terms of christian mythology) that enables the fundamentalists to attack. They provide a cover for the fundamentalists by making excuses for religious bigotry, and claiming that one can’t criticize religion (fundamentalist bigoted fables and beliefs) without hurting their feelings…and that that’s just not accurate or right to do. They are useless to lgbt equality.
But making a couple of extra bucks cashing in on the gay marriage market? I’m sure that was a great windfall compared to the conservatives who left for other churches.
WHo are probably still there. Once again, they don’t say that homosexuality isn’t a sin.
And as for the catholics, while the hierarchy are stuck in the middle ages, their membership is not quite so monolithic.
Once again, providing a cover for the fundamentalists by insisting that one can’t criticize catholicism. That’s not so. I can and will criticize the catholic church, and I’ll criticize anyone who supports that bigoted institution.
Again, one good example is the Italian referendum in the 80s which resulted in 80% support for abortion rights – in one of the most catholic countries in the world.
ANd yet italy is a catholic nation which harbors and nurtures those toxic beliefs.
And all of our prime ministers who spearheaded abortion rights, repeal of the sodomy laws, marriage equality and same-sex partner benefits were staunch Roman Catholics.
This is just windbaggery. I should refer to you as rambles.
So I’m not so sure I’d “fucking lose that right”, as you put it. Maybe I have a bit more hope than you that some people can learn to do the right thing. And given how things are changing, I think history is with that sentiment.
I am sure you’d lose that right. I think if it were held to a vote right now in canada, you’d lose that right.
dsdrane
Tank, do you pay taxes?
schlukitz
@dsdrane:
and they are well-versed in dealing with rowdy guests.
What do they do? Tar and feather them and run them out of town on a rail? LOL
dsdrane
@schlukitz:
They actually engage. They know their stuff (translations of the original Greek, all the “clobber” passages, etc.) and have heard it all before, so they’re ready. As long as the discussion isn’t abusive, they’ll go toe-to-toe ad nauseum. If a poster does turn abusive, they’re out.
TANK
@dsdrane:
Yes, they show up to conservative christian universities to preach at the fundamentalists. Oy…they make no inroads into changing the minds of the fundamentalist evangelicals. It’s embarrassing, and I feel sorry for them…as they’ll do anything for acceptance from the religious who specifically abhor them.
schlukitz
@InExile:
The moral of the story is try to get a seat by yourself if at all possible.
HaHa. What a great line!
With the invasion of the religithugs, it’s a pity that we can’t do that right here on Queerty.
I mean, who wants to sit next to someone like FuddyDuddy, S&M Sex and yacccccccanthandleandthettttttruth? LOL
TANK
But, there’s also a component of christian martyrdom involved in the principles behind soulforce and their activism. It serves no purpose in bridging any religious gap, and changes no fundamentalist minds about the status of gay people, yet those involved think they’re doing god’s work by showing up at these evangelical universities and preaching…often getting kicked off of private property and escorated away by police. That gives them photos of their “oppression”, and talking points about their long suffering.
TANK
@dsdrane:
Of course. Unlike the religious, atheists demand no special rights and tax exemption.
Bill Perdue
Hah. Another nail in the coffin.
It’s such fun watching Canterbury and Akinola whine and writhe. They know that their chances of being accepted by jebuz cristos Inc., the cult of cults, the romans, are getting slimmer every day.
Andrew
@strumpetwindsock: You said: “They accepted all human relationships, including homosexual, as a gift from god. They specifically let the GLBT community know we are welcome, they bless gay unions and have gay clergy. They are not trying to change us (as they do murderers and other sinners).
If that statement is not clear enough perhaps you should call them up for clarification, because you are being deliberately obtuse.”
If you CANNOT see the difference between “welcoming” and “not wrong,” then I think you belong with that bunch – they’ve tricked you.
Show me where they declare that “homosexuality is not a sin.” That’s the LIE that must be dealt with. Where is that official statement – it doesn’t matter if they affirm you and take your money – it matters if we’re still WRONG.
dsdrane
@TANK:
The Equality Riders have about as much success at changing hearts and minds as the Freedom Riders did in the 60s, that is to say very little with the hard-core. The more important message was to the silent ones, watching. And the message was: we know what you’re going through, and we’re going to put our necks on the line to shine a light on it and let others know.
How many people do you know whose feelings about homosexuality have evolved once someone they knew and loved came out to them? I don’t know about you, but that pretty much makes up my entire family. The Equality Riders are coming out for people who can’t or won’t. That’s not embarrassing; it’s brave and it’s an act of love. You may think it’s all folly, but if it saves one kid, it’s worth it.
A lot of so-called Christians are good at professing Christianity, but these are people living it.
And it’s not just Christians, of course…Jews, Muslims, pretty much every group has people dedicated to righting historic wrongs.
dsdrane
@TANK:
So, in other words, you help fund a system that oppresses you.
schlukitz
@TANK:
Of course. Unlike the religious, atheists demand no special rights and tax exemption.
Nor, are we selling anything or collecting money to buy yet more real estate, gold bouillon or precious antiques and collectibles. ;0)
Andrew
Soulforce is a waste of time and money. They, as God fearing Christians, still believe homosexuality is WRONG. They are a part of Metropolitan Community Church (10,000 in the US) and it’s a successful little business for them.
But, they have done nothing to change the religious “definition” of homosexuals. This Summer they had some kind of bike trip for young people. That’ll work.
TANK
@dsdrane:
This is propaganda. Soulforce is successful in converting evangelical christians to be pro lgbt rights because soulforce says so. It’s hokum.
dsdrane
@Andrew:
That’s completely incorrect. First of all, the community is not just Christian, god-fearing or otherwise. Secondly, I don’t know of any relationship with the MCC — if you know of one, please enlighten the rest of us.
The group was founded Mel White, the former speechwriter for the likes of Falwell, et al. Suffice it to say, Mel White was closeted for most of his life and helped cause suffering as the result of what he wrote. Then he stopped, came out, renounced what he had been doing, and devoted the rest of his life to making amends.
Much to the chagrin of his former boss.
TANK
@dsdrane:
Yeah, mel white’s a real hero to gays and lesbians everywhere. Too little, too late. Soulforce is a joke, and perceived as one throughout the evangelical community.
DeAnimator
@Andrew: That’s not exactly true. I know a few people who have attended the Soulforce training camp and among them, a few atheists, and one Catholic. From what I’ve heard, none of them think homosexuality is a sin.
I’m just saying what I heard. I, as a non-member of anything Soulforce related, would not know what the leaders of that group/whatever truly think.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
TANK, do you need to get your eyes checked?
The United Church of Canada does not consider homosexuality to be a sin. They bless same-sex unions, they ordain gay clergy, and they consider homosexual and heterosexual relationships alike to be a gift from god.
If you claim otherwise you are lying.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
I didn’t claim otherwise. I claimed that it can consider homosexuality a sin and yet be gay friendly in terms of ordaining gay clery and consider those relationships a gift from god. Until they explicitly say that christianity does not condemn homosexuality as a sin, I have no good reason to suspect that there aren’t homophobes who believe it does in their ranks (and that they agree with them, too). If religion is anything, it’s inconsistent.
TANK
And the largest christian denomination in canada isn’t the united church of canada, but the roman catholic church. Further, if gay marriage were held to a vote across canada tomorrow, there’s a very good chance you’d lose that right. And it’d be religious folks voting, just as it’s religious folks who vocally oppose it now, and are canadian. According to a poll in 2004, most canadians were against changing the law to allow same sex marriage.
Andrew
@dsdrane: From the Soulforce website:
“On January 1, 1995, Dr. White was appointed national Minister of Justice (an unsalaried position) for the Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches, the only Christian denomination with a primary outreach to gays and lesbians.”
It’s all the same bunch of “gay-friendly” Christians that STILL MAKE HOMOSEXUALITY WRONG.
@strumpetwindsock: Jesus Christ! Please provide the formal declaration that the Church of Canada “does not consider homosexuality a sin.” They still make it wrong and a sin OR THEY CAN’T BE CHRISTIANS. Look for that statement – it’s not there. They will take your money and even bless your gay ass, but YOU ARE STILL WRONG.
CHRISTIAN = HOMOSEXUALITY IS WRONG
Any questions?
Andrew
My Sister and her Husband (religious-bigot nut job) “welcome me into their home,” they even try to “affirm me as a valuable human” and say “God bless you Andrew” way too much….
BUT, they still make me WRONG. The “encourage” me to end my bad behavior so that I might get to Heaven. They know of “counselors” that can help me free myself of homosexuality. See, they have been brain-washed by Religion that I am WRONG. They are like anti-homos zombies – they don’t think. It is the Christian doctrine.
So, just like “Open and Affirming” or “GAY-friendly” Churches, I was welcomed – even loved, but they know I’m going to Hell and that I am defective. They tolerate me. I tolerate them long enough to finish Dinner (my Sister usually has these things catered) and then I escape.
I’m certain that after I leave they “wish” I could be fixed and saved from life in Hell. They’re hopeless.
dsdrane
@TANK:
I may be going out on a limb here, but I’m pretty sure Mel White is more concerned with God’s judgment — not to mention his own — than he is of yours.
Much like Soulforce butting heads with the Fundies, my purpose in our little exchange, Tank, is not to convince you of anything, were that even possible. My purpose is simply to be another voice in the mix, perhaps for someone whose worldview isn’t so black and white.
Until next time, I’ll leave with a Mark Twain quote: “The easy confidence with which I know another man’s religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.”
InExile
@schlukitz: Funny how all you have to do is mention Kabbalah and they all run away. ALWAYS! The duttys and the whatever his name is do not challenge it.
TANK
@dsdrane:
Of course he’s more concerned with the judgment of a made up and logically impossible skydaddy than he is with the judgment of his fellow human beings. That’s why he spent most of his life closeted, and actively campaigning against by supporting those who would seek to harm us.
dsdrane
@Andrew:
So Mel wears two hats. I asked you to show the link between Soulforce the organization and the MCC.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
They do not consider homosexuality to be a sin, and they have clearly said so.
You are simply lying.
@TANK:
And it’s funny that the christian sects whose opinions and beliefs you value the most are the right wing fundamentalists and Bible literalists. You think exactly like them in many ways, and the fact is that without them you have no case.
Your entire argument is based on your refusal to see that religion does change. It has never been static.
And your notion that the impasse between your perceived “enemies” and us will never change until they someday just disappear is equally false and nonsensical.
TANK
@dsdrane:
Oh riiight, black and white is code for being closed minded…a favorite tactic of the religious.
Perhaps you should be OPEN MINDED, huh?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
But they haven’t clearly said. There’s nothing that says that they don’t. And you’re out of your mind if you think that 2.9 million canadians who identify as members of the united church of canada (and only a quarter million attend), or roughly 9% of canada’s population–are all not homophobic. I think you’re insane if you think that they all agree with the church’s official position, just like you’d think I would be misguided if you think I believe that all people who identify as catholic are anti choice.
Andrew
DADT at Gay-Friendly Churches
We, as a Community, express anger at the Military’s Don’t Ask Don’t Tell Policy and yet we use it all the time at so-called “gay friendly” Churches.
The ugly truth is that these Churches still continue to believe in their Christian Doctrine that Homosexuality is a sin, it is wrong, it is deviant and we are therefore defective. All the affirming, blessing and incense burning doesn’t change what these churches “officially” believe.
Why do we rail against the Military for DADT, but ignore it when these Churches use it?
If these Churches really did care about gays and lesbians AND Equality they’d change WHAT THEY BELIEVE BY CHANGING THEIR DOCTRINE. When will that happen? I’m asking, please tell.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
No, religion does change. That’s never been something I’ve stated. It has changed countless times throughout its history–the only constant being that it has been implicated in causing human suffering throughout its existence. Most christians are homophobic. HOmophobia is unjustifiable.
TANK
It’s like I need to remind you that homophobia is unjustifiable. It’s a real shame…you’re clearly self loathing.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
You’re repeating yourself now. I already addressed all that in my answers #88 and #93.
You should take notes if you can’t keep things straight. It’s kind of annoying.
TANK
And it’s funny that the christian sects whose opinions and beliefs you value the most are the right wing fundamentalists and Bible literalists.
You act like they’re uncommon. They’re extremely common. Of course I’m concerned with them, you stupid fool…they’re the ones who cause the harm.
Andrew
@dsdrane: The “hats,” idiot. All the MCC and Soulforce money is “co-mingled.” And, yes prosecutors use that expression. We have never been able to get any reliable financial info from MCC or Soulforce and they are routinely investigated, but Religion gets a lot of wiggle room.
@strumpetwindsock: Where has the Church of Canada “officially changed the doctrine and said HOMOSEXUALITY IS NOT A SIN AND NOT WRONG.” That should be easy to find on their website – please provide the link for us all.
epluribusunumjk
Good story. I’ve been to a few Episcopalian services in the past, and they are pretty good.
Also, why do so many people type in caps on this site? It’s really annoying and gives me a migraine. I guess Queerty just really attracts Type As, huh? (Or at least Type A’s when only online)
Andrew
Christians seem to have torn many pages out of the Bible that suggest:
Blacks are lesser human beings
Slavery is cool
(Sin of Ham and Curse of Canaan)
Women should obey Men
(Too many references to list)
Cheeseburgers
(Levitical Code)
I’m just curious, can us HOMOSEXUALS BE NEXT??
schlukitz
Something that DuttyBarb and YCHTT should take a long, hard look at.
http://www.nathancolquhoun.com/blog/index.php/2009/06/24/the-question-of-homosexuality-is-the-wro
strumpetwindsock
@Andrew:
Yeah, I suppose you want it in all caps, too.
I already told you, back at post #84.
schlukitz
@Andrew:
Re: Your post no. 116.
So much judgement, so little understanding. How sad. 🙁
Neil
There are clearly people on here who are convinced that they are “in the know.” They have they answers. The know what God thinks or they know that religion is evil. To me this is the definition of “wing nuts.” They exist at both extremes.
Religion, God, Jesus, Mohammed, the Hebrew Prophets have been used to justify hateful, bigoted behavior throughout history.
These same entities and people have been used to inspire great works of art and great acts of love and charity.
You don’t need religion to accomplish either of the above but for some people it supplies the catalyst. In my understanding of God through Jesus Christ that love and charity is the intended outcome, the hatefulness and bigotry is a human abuse that “makes the baby Jesus cry.”
I will say that people who rail against any institution and blame it for their oppressed stated miss the meaning of being created in God’s iamge. You are empowered to be a power for good in this world or to be a victim and blame. Chose to use your power for good… if it is an outcome of faith or atheism matters not.
You can say I don’t need a building to worship God. I would say that is like saying I don’t need the United Way or the Red Cross to help my neighbor. I guess it depends on who you see as your naighbor.
Get involved in making the world a better place. That’s what really matters. I would say very few people can do that alone. And telling other people that the place they have found to accomplish that is somehow meaningless accomplishes nothing but to demean their attempts.
Think, before you speak… or shout… or blame.
We are all in this together.
TANK
@Neil:
And then there are smug religionistas like yourself who hide your faith behind pablum, who propose to have the answers about god, and simultaneously class all who disagree with them as insane. You think you’re being reasonable by affirming that you have the answers and that everyone else is an extremist, when you yourself as just as extreme as every other religious person. You claim to have the true faith, when there’s no such thing. Further, that your god is the true god, and have nothing but your belief that it is to justify that claim. You haven’t a shred of epistemic justification for your beliefs, nor ethical justification as the type of belief you hold (religious), as those beliefs kill.
TANK
I guess it depends on who you see as your naighbor.
That’s right. Religion has balkanized the modern world, and has caused immeasurable human suffering in the process.
Neil
@TANK:
You have missed my point. You don’t know me. I am anything but smug. So I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren’t as ignorant and as intolerant as your posts portray you.
Such enegry! Put it to good use.
TANK
@Neil:
Oh, of course…smug is against your religion. LOL!
TANK
The height irony, too. Playing the “intolerance card”. Youcanthandlethetruth does the same thing when cornered. All religious people do, it seems…spilling the most vile hate speech from one corner of their mouth, while claiming victimization for their beliefs with the other.
Neil
And I turn the other cheek too. 🙂
Andrew
A review of the United Church of Canada Website finds that there is “extreme division amongst the members” about homosexuality. While they reluctantly agreed to “allowing homosexuals to be ordained” it lead to a number of Churches quitting. What they do confirm though, is they still adhere to scripture regarding homosexuality and that it IS a SIN and WRONG.
All the bs about being “welcoming” doesn’t change anything. They still have homosexuals wrong and that is why we are hated.
SM
“it seems…spilling the most vile hate speech from one corner of their mouth, while claiming victimization for their beliefs with the other.”
You just described YOURSELF!
TANK
@SM:
And not to mention redefining what “bashing” and “hate speech” mean to amount to anyone who disagrees with christians about anything. You don’t think that it’s okay that most christians are antigay bigots? Well, you’re a bigot, because according to this stupid mentality, the intolerance of bigotry is bigoted.
Something tells me in light of what happened in tel aviv that we have very different meanings for the terms bashing and hate speech. LOL! You’ll never comprehend our meaning because you just don’t understand bigotry and oppression.
SM
@TANK:
I don’t stand up for anti gay religious people. I can also call out other people who do the same thing. You don’t have to belong to a Church in order belong to a group that bashes and hates.
There are plenty of people who live in the sticks who don’t want same sex marriage either but never go to Church.
Stop acting like you are some kind of kind, tolerant do gooder. We can put you in a group too.
strumpetwindsock
@Andrew:
Nonsense, Andrew.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
that’s just your religion getting in the way of apprehending the truth.
TANK
@SM:
Who’s denying that there are homophobes who aren’t religious out there? Your chances go down dramatically, and it’s not because of an absence of religious belief that they’re homophobic…that’s something else like sexism. Whereas it is directly because of religious faith that many christians are homophobic.
SM
@TANK:
You don’t get it. You can spend the rest of your life blaming religion and Churches for denying your rights, Proposition 8, whatever. I blame all the people who want LGBT to have full equality and do nothing.
I don’t expect people to step out of their comfort zones and “change” marriage when LGBT people don’t seem to take it seriously or yell and name call
People like Rachel Maddow and Olbermann are constantly give you a national voice that they don’t give to other groups like people with disabilities or Native Americans. You all have an amazing President in the White House who you expect to be perfect and yet I doubt any of you go to all your local townhall meetings etc.
AlabamaOneirogmophobia
Whooo hooo
Yall are fun.
strumpetwindsock
@Andrew:
Actually I couldn’t find that quote on their website.
If you’re talking about the ordination decision, that was indeed divisive.
You might want to mention though, that it happened over a quarter century ago, in 1988.
edgyguy1426
But Rachel Maddow is as hard on Obama as anyone and you’re giving her a pass for being hard on Obama? Every time Maddow puts up that photo of Obama with the sarcastic phrase ‘Fierce Advocate’ she’s saying what we’re saying here.
We get the Shame on You’s and she gets the kudos. Unbefuckinglieveable.
Andrew
@strumpetwindsock: United Church of Canada OFFICIALLY still makes HOMOSEXUALS WRONG. Just leave it at that. You support them, so you are AGAINST full Equality for gays and lesbians. We understand your Church is DADT and that’s okay with you.
Some of us are more interested in Equality than trying to protect your particular bit of mythology. You’re “infected” and also dishonest about the facts, so I’m tried of you.
TANK
@edgyguy1426:
She apparently thinks religious bigots should get a pass, too. That we shouldn’t blame religion for harassing us and encouraging violence against memebers of our community. She’s delusional.
TANK
@TANK:
Not maddow, SM. Maddow’s a lush.
TANK
@Andrew:
Looks like I’m not alone in calling you out on your disgusting christian apologism. Go read the bible, strumpet. Some of us don’t care if we can attend service–we want rights.
duttybarb
A true Child of God is supposed to live a life as far away from sin as possible…God has zero tolerance for sin. That is why a liar and a killer is the same in God’s eyes
Homosexuality is a deviant situation because it goes against the “one man one woman” definition. Im sure u derive pleasure from it but that does not make it less sinful. Hell, many of the things the bible teaches against we all can find great pleasure in it. What i dnt get though is..how anyone can read that bible and still think gay lifestyle is not a sin. If you have read the way Paul describes homosexuality and sexual perversion…you can actually hear the disgust in his very core at having seen it.
I just pity the ones amongst you who actually go to false churches to balm your consciences that this lifestyle is not wrong. No church..maybe Episcopalian.. can say homosexuality is not a sin. The grammar in the bible can be confusing but not that confusing.
strumpetwindsock
@Andrew:
I’m afraid you’ll have to show me your notes on that, if you have any.
You’ll find their actual position on sexual orientation on this page.
You might also note that they do not accept everything in the bible as the literal word of god, and that there are some things in it, like slavery, which they no longer follow:
http://www.united-church.ca/beliefs/overview
And even though I think you were talking about a dispute that happened before TANK here was born (he is still under 30, right?), it’s not quite mythology.
Andrew
DUTTYBARB = RELIGION
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Well that’s brilliant logic, strumpet. So because the church rendered homosexuality wrong before I was born, it’s not quite mythology…because god said so? You’re a paragon of logical thinking and rational inquiry. LOL!
TANK
strumpet has proven beyond doubt that he’d be happier singing a hymn in a church that tolerates (not accepts) him than for equal protection under the law for lgbt people.
Andrew
@strumpetwindsock: at your Church of Canada website the include the following:
“The United Church of Canada prides itself on welcoming everyone the way Jesus did, regardless of age, race, class, gender, orientation, or physical ability.”
Where is the part that “homosexuality is NOT a sin or WRONG?” Stop wasting everyone’s time. This Church has NEVER changed its doctrine regarding homosexuals, they simply changed their “marketing.”
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
@Andrew:
Gee you boys are tiring and tedious.
How can the church bless a marriage which it considers a sin?
You can refuse to listen to facts all you want, but unfortunately for you anyone who is interested in looking at these things with an open mind can make their own decision.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
What about it? That doesn’t mean that it no longer considers it a sin. There are plent of churches that are allegedly gay friendly and are full of gay and lesbian parishioners but whose congregants consider homosexuality immoral, and the official church policy is that it’s a sin. What’s your point?
TANK
And in this case, it’s really just a gamble to get more asses in seats by appearing “tolerant”.
Andrew
@strumpetwindsock: You are a moron. They bless a marriage they consider a sin FOR MONEY. They still make homosexuality wrong.
You should be asking them why they bless a marriage they still consider a sin – if they’re honest they will give you the same answer I did. Then, ask yourself why you support the institution that makes you wrong and has created ALL the pain and suffering gays have had to endure. That’s the most important question.
schlukitz
@InExile</a
@schlukitz: Funny how all you have to do is mention Kabbalah and they all run away. ALWAYS! The duttys and the whatever his name is do not challenge it.
Kinda like a stake to a vampire, eh? ;0)
schlukitz
@TANK:
I could not agree with you more. Homophobia is as unjustifiable as hating midgets and then telling them that their shortness is a choice that they have made and unless they change, they are going to hell.
schlukitz
@Neil:
I will say that people who rail against any institution and blame it for their oppressed stated miss the meaning of being created in God’s iamge.
Would it be fair to say that the Nazi Party and the Reichstag were “Institutions”?
You are empowered to be a power for good in this world or to be a victim and blame
Guess the six-million Jewish “victims” that perished as a result of those “Institutions” blew it…big time, eh?
Tell me something. If you use your mouth to blow shit like this out of, what do you use to eat with?
TANK
@schlukitz:
LOL!@ at that last sentence. Quite funny. It’s smug religious pap like that that gives religion in all of its incarnations a pass…from fundamentalists to moderates.
SM
Mother Theresa devoted her life to orphanages, AIDS hospices, and charity centres worldwide while caring for refugees, the blind, disabled, aged, alcoholics, the poor and homeless. She cared for victims of floods, epidemics and famine in Asia, Africa, Latin America, North America, Europe and Australia.
Lets see TANK’s and SCHLUKITZ Do gooder resume..
TANK
@SM:
Where to begin on what a sanctimonious hypocrite mother theresa was…where to begin. Do some research. She spent millions on building temples to her greatness while building substandard health centers in third world countries to help only those who were “worthy” (those who converted to catholicism). She was a sham.
TANK
@TANK:
she raised millions upon millions through her propaganda machine, and not a fraction went to actually helping the needy.
SM
@TANK:
TANK…There is no way you are spending your life helping the poor and starving. PUHLEASEEEEEEEEEEE
I’ll drive you to a homeless shelter run by a CHURCH that is full of people. We shall see if you take them home to get them out of the evil church or don’t give a crap.
Distingué Traces
These stories make me feel so guilty for going to a Presbyterian church — even though our congregation is super-cool, the denomination is phobic and our pastor has to stay closeted to his superiors!
But … the Episcopalian churches are all too far away from my house.
TANK
@SM:
You held up mother teresa as an example of religious charity and virtue. She was a two bit huckster and a mere shill for the church.
When she was invited to address the united nations, she refused the car offered to take her there, and opted for public transit in her sari and sandals. What kind of hubris does that represent? What kind of contrived religious “sacrifice” and hubris is that to refuse a car to address the u.n., but opt to take a bus, potentially inconveniencing everyone so you can stage a photo op.
SM
@TANK:
You just can’t stand the fact that I can tolerate people different than me or with different views.
I swear the United States is going down the toilet because of NeoLiberals and NeoConservatives and their WARS.
It’s the Classic Liberals and Classic Conservatives that need to put the reality back in this country.
schlukitz
@TANK:
Ditto, Tank.
Mother Theresa was a phony. And feeble-minded people like SM buy into the smoke and mirrors.
Here is but one of a vast number of articles available on the Internet that gives the real low-down on that charlatan.
http://www.salon.com/sept97/news/news3.html
She was a friend to the rich, never a friend to the poor. I would have hated to suffer the fate of being confined to one of the substandard medical facilities she built in third world countries.
And even she admitted, in her wretched misery just before her death, that her God had “forsaken her”.
SM
@schlukitz:
You know if its on the Internet its 100% true. Just read Queerty!
TANK
@SM:
yeah, salon.com publishes lies. Idiot.
schlukitz
@SM:
It’s the Classic Liberals and Classic Conservatives that need to put the reality back in this country.
Yep. Let’s bring back burning witches and faggots at the stake.
Let’s bring back black slavery.
Let’s put women back where they belong…barefoot and pregnant behind the kitchen sink.
Let’s take away the vote from women.
Let’s put men back in charge of everything.
Let’s bring back child-labor.
Let’s bring back public lynching.
Let’s bring back the electric chair and hanging.
Let’s bring back the stocks and punishing citizens in the village square
Oh…and let’s bring back that “Old time religion.” That’ll put everything right again.
Any other “reality items” that I’ve omitted here?
SM
@TANK:
Give me a break hater.
Mother Theresa actually doubted God and had issues with her Faith. You just want to attack her as a person because its all you do.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Written by Christopher Hitchens.
There’s an unbiased account for you.
schlukitz
@SM:
You know if its on the Internet its 100% true. Just read Queerty!
So, what you are saying, essentially, is that Christopher Hitchens didn’t write the words I referred you to in the link?
Next, you’ll be telling me that Christopher Hitchens is merely a figment of my imagination.
Talk about a person in denial?
Read a fucking book now and then and do a little reference work, you ignorant, babbling idiot.
schlukitz
@SM:
Mother Theresa actually doubted God and had issues with her Faith.
I just said that, copy-cat.
Can’t you find something original that might have come out of your own thought-processes to say?
SM
@schlukitz:
How old are you? lol
Classical Liberals biggest strenght is civil rights…
Prior to the 20th century, classical liberalism was the dominant political philosophy in the United States. It was the political philosophy of Thomas Jefferson and the signers of the Declaration of Independence and it permeates the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Federalist Papers and many other documents produced by the people who created the American system of government. Many of the emancipationists who opposed slavery were essentially classical liberals, as were the suffragettes, who fought for equal rights for women.
strumpetwindsock
@schlukitz:
I don’t know if this is what SM meant, but your Conservative movement definitely took a turn for the worse in the Reagan Years, particularly with the rise of the moral majority.
Not that I would have ever voted for one of your republicans, but Even Richard Nixon was a great president compared to the Bushes (and that is saying a lot).
TANK
@SM:
What is classical liberalism? What’s the central principle? Define it in a sentence.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
It’s better than you dinesh d’souza inspired religious screeds. Your born again christer apologetics. I’ll take hitchens over your church fag rantings.
schlukitz
@strumpetwindsock:
Actually, there are many other similar accounts to be found that expose Mothera Theresa for the fraud that she was.
A lot of people were onto her long before Christopher Hitchens went after her.
TANK
To think that you of all people would call anyone else out on their bias is laughable. You’re one of the most pro christian gay people on this site. You’d sell gay rights down the river for a chance to pray with the enemy.
schlukitz
@strumpetwindsock:
I wouldn’t argue with you on either of those two well made points.
strumpetwindsock
@schlukitz:
Be that as it may, I would not trust him to write a fair account on the subject, given his bias.
SM
@TANK:
The fact you and your buddy jumped on Mother Theresa like pitbulls in 2 seconds is laughable. I posted her name here on purpose and you all took the bait.
Mother Theresa spent the end of her life doubting God existed and basically becoming a non believer.
TANK
You know what strumpet means by his bias, don’t you? His reasoned arguments against religion. That’s all strumpet means. He’s certainly not addressing the content of anything hitchens has ever written. Anything negative about religion is automatically censured by strumpet because he’s deeply religious, and can’t see the flaws in faith.
TANK
@SM:
Mother teresa was a shill for the roman catholic church. A total fraud who didn’t care at all for the poor. You propagate her propaganda, like other simpletons. The evidence is abundant and anyone can find it.
schlukitz
@SM:
Many of the emancipationists who opposed slavery were essentially classical liberals
And, if you’d crack a history book, you find that many of your “emancipationists”, Thomas Jefferson included, owned and did not free their slaves.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7842/jeffersonians/jpfor005.htm
Oh wait. You won’t buy this either will you, because it came off the Internet.
How can you kep your head up your ass so long without getting a crick in your neck?
schlukitz
@strumpetwindsock:
I would not trust him to write a fair account on the subject, given his bias.
Nor, would I trust the pope to write a fair account on the subject, given his bias. LOL
schlukitz
@SM:
I posted her name here on purpose and you all took the bait.
Yeah. Right. Another excuse to pat yourself on the back.
You love doing that, don’t you. Patting yourself on the back, that is. And, you do it so well.
Must come for all those years of practice!
schlukitz
Typo” “for” should read “from”
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
No, actually.
Hitchens is too emotionally involved with the subject, which is never a good thing in journalism. And he also tends toward spite and ridicule in his arguments, and the man has a big ego.
In the most recent interview I heard with him he was asked something along the lines of what he enjoyed most. His answer was “winning arguments against people who wish they had not challenged me”.
It doesn’t really give me confidence that he puts fairness and th truth above all, with an attitude like that.
So I’m not denying the truth of the Mother Theresa story, but I would certainly check out a few other peoples’ work before I accepted his account.
And TANK, you know I am not religious; I simply don’t think they are all our enemies.
TANK
@schlukitz:
I already said she was jean teasdale. Look that one up–the onion opinion writer.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Of course you’re religious. Will you stop denying it? You may not attend service, but you’re a believer through and through.
And way to address NONE of the substance of ANYTHING hitchens has ever written. You don’t have an argument. Saying that you don’t trust him and that he’s too emotionally involved is rubbish.
strumpetwindsock
@schlukitz:
You’re absolutely right.
The difference is that most people are aware of the Pope’s bias (plus he doesn’t pretend to be a journalist).
Not everyone is aware of Hitchens’s biases.
schlukitz
@TANK:
Yep. I know who she is. And I love the Onion. ;o)
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
I can think of at least one occasion where he didn’t do his homework properly – a lecture (tirade, actually) in Toronto about Canadian Hate Crimes legislation.
Not sure who posted the youtube version of it here (might have been you, TANK), but anyway, hitchens actually started hectoring the audience with “shame on you, shame on you” and accusing them of letting other people decide what subjects they may and may not talk or write about in public.
Too bad the actual legislation has nothing to do with content, but with establishing willful promotion of hatred. He was working the pulpit great. Too bad it was nonsense.
I wouldn’t trust a hothead as a doctor, and I wouldn’t trust one to give me my news, either.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
LOL! You’re desperate. Once again, you haven’t provided a substantive criticism of anything hitchens has written. Nothing.
TANK
Or said to be honest. You’ve lied before, so this perhaps another slippery little point–the product of misunderstanding what hitchens said or completely manufactured.
TANK
http://heliologue.com/2007/02/16/christopher-hitchens-on-free-speech/
You mean this? I think if you’d watch the video, christopher hitchens not only did his homework, but kicked some major ass.
schlukitz
Frau Blücher: Would the doctor care for a brandy before retiring?
Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: No. Thank you.
Frau Blücher: Some varm milk… perhaps?
Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: No… thank you very much. No thanks.
Frau Blücher: Ovaltine?
Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: NOTHING! Thank you! I’m a little – tired!
Frau Blücher: Then I vill say… goodnight.
Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: Goodnight.
Since Hitchens has been turned down, some Walter Wuellenweber…perhaps?
http://members.lycos.co.uk/bajuu/
SM
@TANK:
Are you one of these haters? This country is getting sick from the extremes and outright hate.
Its all MEMEMEME
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/5967942/Barack-Obama-faces-30-death-threats-a-day-stretching-US-Secret-Service.html
schlukitz
@SM:
Its all MEMEMEME
Honeychile, we all got that from the moment you first set foot in these threads!
SM
@schlukitz:
I set foot in threads? lol.
I do not like you.
I do not respect you.
You can take all the times you have called me a “cunt” and choke on the word for all I care.
I got involved in LGBT Equality issues because I want my gay brother who has beat HIV for over 20 years to have full Equality and you can FUCK OFF FOR GETTING IN MY WAY!!!!!!!!!!
schlukitz
I am confident that the link Sadie-Mazie provided us with, has something to do with something.
schlukitz
@SM:
I love it when you talk dirty!
SM
@schlukitz:
You are the loser who calls straight women “cunts” because they fight for their brother’s equality…but you are never brave enough to do it using your real name.
COWARD.
schlukitz
@SM:
You seem to be quite obsessed with that particular part of the female anatomy. I’ve noticed that you mention it a lot in your posts.
Are you a closeted carpet-muncher, by any chance?
SM
@schlukitz:
You are freaking strange. Really strange.
Queerty sure does attract the lowest common denominator of the LGBT community. You don’t see this BS on other web sites. Thank God.
schlukitz
@SM:
Queerty sure does attract the lowest common denominator of the LGBT community.
I guess that explains your presence here.
You don’t see this BS on other web sites. Thank God.
Yep. God monitors them. He told me so.
schlukitz
10 minutes and no response.
That’s a good sign.
The wicked witch of the west appears to have fallen asleep. Finally!
SM
@schlukitz:
Say what you have to say to me without hiding behind a computer or shut the hell up.
You are psycho.
Act like an ADULT towards people.
schlukitz
Error 103:
She’s still awake! :o(
SM
@schlukitz: @schlukitz:
I speak to people internationally so I keep odd hours. We can go all night.
Some of my neighbors donated $25,000.00 to the Yes On Prop 8 Campaign. Come on down to the OC and use your classy charm on them. You can say what you want to my face.
You are just a coward. A simple selfloathing coward.
SM
@schlukitz:
In 2008 Dolores Huerta, co-founder of the United Farm Workers, approached EQCA and asked, “How can I be of any help?” EQCA’s response: “We don’t need your help.” To pass up on the the Latino voting block is one of the greatest political blunders. Sure it would have been an uphill battle, but if Ms. Huerta was willing to go the distance, who was EQCA to snub her?
Congrats on ALWAYS snubbing others! As we can see, it gets LGBT Equality FAR.
SM
“An aide to Los Angeles’ Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa approached EQCA, and speaking for the mayor’s office, offered his help. He was told, “We don’t need your help. We don’t want to make this political.”
You all know it all.
SM
Place your bets on if EQCA and the angry hate filled LGBT community members will blow this chance to learn from people who know how to win. After all, the know it all and Obama is the Antichrist on a daily basis.
———–
Repeal Prop 8 in 2010
Steve Hildebrand, deputy national campaign director of Barack Obama’s 2008 presidential campaign, will be attending the event, along with other experts in many of the fields we will be covering. While Steve will be speaking to the audience as a whole, the other experts will simply be on hand, or participating in break-out sessions to answer questions and help as requested.
Come prepared with concerns, big ideas, questions, and whatever strategies you have to make this happen. While we will not solve all the problems or answer all the questions, we will leave with a functional plan in place to move forward immediately.
Andrew
@Distingué Traces: What makes you think you NEED religion? It isn’t necessary, in fact it has caused most of the pain and suffering in the World.
Neil
I don’t remember any post attracting so much attention, so many comments. And some of them are actually civil discourse. That is such a lost art. It’s very easy to blame and throw around insults and shout (capitalize). It’s much harder to sit down with people with whom you disagree. So some of you who have a brain, that you may believe is God-given or the product of evolution or a combination of these two, need to think how you are using it to promote understanding.
So one more time. Awful horrible thing have been done in the name of religion by human being who have misused it, cherry-picked quotations form scripture and not be able to see that much of the bible is mythology. It has to be because it contradicts itself too much to be taken literally. In the Episcopal Church we have a saying that we take the Bible to seriously to take it literally. Most of us believe that metaphor makes any text richer than what is is if just read literally. That does not mean that it is not a wealthy source of understanding God. It is just that it was written by men in a different world than we live in. That does not mean that it is not true, but remember that our lives are spent in pursuit of “truth.” Religion has helped some great people find truths in their lives. Perhaps Mother Theresa is great example of this… and now we know that she had doubts. Again, the opposite of faith is not doubt, but certainty.
I will state that I do not have the answers. And I suspect that I have had a lot more time to try to figure them out than most who have commented. I am 57.
I do not believe that any one way is the answer. I do not believe that anyone who does not follow a prescribed path will be going to hell. My personal faith does not match all the dogma of my corporate faith. I am not interested in an afterlife, in heaven or in hell. I do believe that working together to make the world a better place is a good thing. I urge you to volunteer with any organization to do that, religious or secular.
My particular path is to be an activist in the Episcopal Church. Those of you who castigate me for this should, to use a parable from Christianity, “see to the beam in your own eye, before worrying about the mote in mine.”
Working together is something that LGBT people have not done well. Accepting our differences to work together to move forward is what we must do.
Take the March on Washington. What is to be gained by saying it is a mistake? We are claiming our own territory to make its failure a self fulfilling prophecy. If we don’t get over thinking that we have the only way to get our rights and realize that we each have gifts that should be brought together to make us one body, it will only take us longer to get where we all want to go.
My way of viewing this is informed by my faith and my upbringing in the Episcopal Church. You may reach the same conclusion through secular humanism or any number of other paths.
The only wrong choice is that which divides us. That which dwells on the past and does not move us forward.
Form Sister Joan Chittester: “Nothing we can do changes the past. Everything we do changes the future.”
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
He did a great job of insulting and trying to shame people (came off just like a condescending preacher, actually).
Too bad he forgot to familiarize himself with the law he was trying to shame people about. It’s not at all a matter of people giving up their right to decide what is allowable speech or not.
The law is based on criminal intent, not content.
You can say some pretty vile, racist and hateful things and still not satisfy the burden of proof to gain a conviction. Hitchens did not have a correct understanding of the law.
@schlukitz:
Though he gets his own accusations of yellow journalism:
http://www.rationalgalerie.de/schmock/index_24.html
But I’m not questioning the Mother Theresa story.
It’s just that one has to look at the author when evaluating a story, particularly when that author has a serious bias.
schlukitz
@SM:
Your’re repeating yourself, dear.
Over and over and over…..
Brian
@Neil: If it is so clear Neil – just provide all of us with the simple statement from your Episcopalians that says: “Homosexuality is not wrong, not a sin.” Otherwise, this is just clever DADT like other “gay-friendly” churches.
Nobody in this Comment section claimed anyone’s religion was “wrong,” because the “truth” is nobody knows – not even TANK. What many of have said is Religion (including yours) is the only thing that makes homosexuality wrong and it has done so for 2,000 years. We don’t need to double-check the Anglican Communion – Episcopalians continue to “endorse” that belief based on their formal doctrine. Your cute suggestion that Episcopalians can sit in Church and make up whatever beliefs they choose – as if the beliefs are presented via Menu and a la carte, would suggest Episcoplaians aren’t actually Christians.
Religion branded homosexuals and we need to undo that wrong. If you are Gay and supporting religion – in any way – you are working against us and not for us. You should think about putting Equality BEFORE Religion. If not for the sake of your fellow gay brothers and sisters, how about for the hundreds of gay teens that kill themselves each year? They kill themselves because they believe they are WRONG. Religion made them wrong. It doesn’t matter if it is shouted on the Street corners or whispered in the pews – religion has made us all wrong.
WE are NOT WRONG. Tell your Church to declare we are NOT WRONG or find something else to believe in – like your community.
dsdrane
@Neil:
Great post, Neil.
Andrew
@Neil: You said: From Sister Joan Chittester: “Nothing we can do changes the past. Everything we do changes the future.”
I agree with Brian. Enough is enough with the double-talk Neil. I want to see where it is published by the Episcopalians that “Homosexuality is Not Wrong.” I used to attend an Episcopalian Church in Dallas and they were only lukewarm about gays. I finally made an inquiry and was told emphatically that “homosexuality was a sin comparable to rape and murder,” and I was offered counseling. I told them to shove their beliefs up their religious ass. I finally understood that religion – in all forms, is the enemy.
So, stop acting like there is some value to gay-friendly religions. HRC reports that less than 1% of the Churches in the US are welcoming to homosexuals. After 2,000 we got 1%, gee whiz. So, in 99,000 years we’ll be welcomed in half the Churches?
Tell Sister Joan to end the lie about homosexuals that religion has promoted for too long – that will change the future. Or, tell her to go fu** herself.
Brian
@Neil: Hmmm. Your words: “My particular path is to be an activist in the Episcopal Church. Those of you who castigate me for this should, to use a parable from Christianity, “see to the beam in your own eye, before worrying about the mote in mine.”
Nothing I, or anyone I know, in the Gay Community leads to the death of innocent kids – RELIGION DOES. Religion makes them wrong. Their blood is on your Episcopalian hands.
Get your Faith to end the Wrong of being Homosexual – or get the Hell out of there Neil. Unless they formally declare it is NOT WRONG they are continuing to do us harm. If you support that, you are hurting us, too.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Once again, you’re just repeating yourself without providing any evidence. How, exactly, did hitchens not do his homework about the potential for this law to silence critics of religion while enabling religious bigots to say what they wish under the banner of religion? How precisely did he fail to do his homework there? Line and verse of the law which precludes this possibility in 2006, when he was giving the talk, please. Hot air.
TANK
@TANK:
Actually, hitchens was completely right about this law. It silences criticism of religion as hate speech while giving religious people the right to say whatever vile hate speech their religion permits and encourages, inciting violence–only through their religious expression and without the intent of doing it (they’ll claim). So not only are you dead to rights in defending religious bigotry, strumpet–but you also want to silence criticism of that same religious intolerance.
TANK
@TANK:
ANd now, insofar as that’s true (and it is), we can all conclude that you have nothing healthy or productive to contribute to lgbt equality. I don’t even think you’re gay at this point–but an oily version of youcanthandle.
TANK
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_hat6.htm
In essence, the law states that the freedomof one person to express religiously-motivated hatred is given higher priority that the freedom of another person to be free of hatred expressed against them.
QED. Why do you hate the nonreligious, strumpet? Why do you despise free speech? Why do you hate gay people?
dsdrane
@Neil:
You wrote: “Working together is something that LGBT people have not done well. Accepting our differences to work together to move forward is what we must do.”
Agreed. When I finally left NYC, I had lived there for 16 years, more than half of that time in the West Village and Chelsea. I worked at GMHC, marched with ACT UP and Queer Nation, volunteered at the Gay Games IV office, and even had a hand in proof-reading the 2nd edition of “The Joy of Gay Sex” (which was partially dedicated to me personally…top that Boys). I’d stack my “gay cred” against just about anyone, in particular many who have commented in this thread. In short, my adult life has been out, proud, and engaged…so I can only roll my eyes at those who would suggest I’m self-loathing.
There’s a reason our flag is a rainbow; we come in many stripes, from different traditions, and, not surprisingly, we come with a lot of baggage — baggage bestowed to us by a society that ranges from the outright hostile to struggling to understand to openly embracing and everything in between. No wonder channelling our efforts is like herding cats. We’ve also had to struggle to find our footing in a largely hostile environment, and many of us had to do this in isolation — not exactly fertile ground for taking marching orders even from our friends and allies.
I understand the zeal and obvious hurt that many here feel. I used to feel it, too. I wasn’t churched growing up, but that didn’t stop me from having very negative attitude towards organized religion. Religion was never foisted on me; I came to it only later in life…and what I came to was the Episcopal Church. It was a very personal decision, and I have no desire to proselytize to others. I don’t expect anyone to understand or agree; but I do expect the same sort of common decency we demand from the straight world from my own community.
Barring that, I find it necessary to wander into the snake’s den to challenge those who seek to paint the path I and others have taken with a broad brush of their own anger. I believe a lot of the anger is justified, but I also believe it’s misdirected. So here I am.
TANK
@dsdrane:
Have another drink, mary. No one cares if you worship skydaddy, but don’t pretend for a second that it’s okay to be gay in doing so–even by the standard of episcopal church.
schlukitz
@strumpetwindsock:
Just to allay your fears that I am promoting Mr. Hitchens, at the expense of all other opinions, I would like to say that I picked that particular link at random, from a number of other links that also disputed Mother Theresa’s saintliness. It was not until it was brought to my attention that I realized that the article had been written by him.
As the author of several books, the latest of which is “God Is Not Great”, Mr. Hitchens has taken on the most controversial of subjects which is of itself, a taboo in that religions has always demanded and continues to demand that it be respected, so it is entirely understandable that many would be offended by his his words or find him intolerable.
Personally, I have no problem with the notion of respect but I do have a qualification concerning that concept. I feel that it must be earned and is not something that is bestowed like a gift. Nor, is it something that can be demanded as though it were a divine right.
In my own particular case and as an openly gay man since the age of 15, I feel that the church has not been particularly respectful of me. And it is for that reason, that I now read books by people like Christopher Hitchens, Carl Sagan, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and a host of current writers that have “seen the light”, as it were, with respect to the hypocricy of organized religion as opposed to reading the bible. (Ugh!)
I am of the opinion that the words of any man are subject to dispute and/or correction, especially if he has an axe to grind. The above authors are no exception. In their enthusiasm to condemn organized religion and even God him/herself, they can be just as likely to go overboard as the bible often does. One has only to refer to the numerous links on the Internet dealing with the bible as hate literature.
That said, however, and recognizing that I must not allow anyone to prevent me from using my own powers of deduction, I now live in the space of “take the best and leave the rest”. Whatever inaccuracies the above authors may be guilty of, I would prefer to go with their thinking as opposed to the bible thumpers who threaten me with hellfire and brimstone if I do not respect them and do as they say.
It’s interesting to note that none of the above named authors have threatened me in any way, either verbally or physically.
Now, that’s something I can respect! ;o)
edgyguy1426
@duttybarb: you speak of false churches, what is a ‘true’ church?
TANK
It doesn’t matter if you worship zeus or giant purple marshmellow that controls the weather or any batshit crazy doctrine that strikes your damaged mind as the truth… But let’s not pretend that you’re not supporting institutional homophobia, because you are. Church fags abound–yet another nail in the coffin of this “community”.
dsdrane
@TANK:
You buying?
Brian
@dsdrane: Why not help Neil get an official declaration from your Episcopalians that clearly states “Homosexuals are NOT WRONG?” Otherwise you are just as guilty as every other gay-christian that contributes to the one thing that has hatefully made us wrong – religion.
Now that we have you two enthusiastic believers on the job can we see something this Decade? Please?
TANK
@schlukitz:
Hitchens gets a lot of his arguments against religion from David Hume (a LOT of them). So criticism of hitchens amounts to criticism of Hume, and well…I haven’t anyone really win that debate.
schlukitz
@TANK:
HeeHee
dsdrane
@Brian:
Brian, for you, I’ll place a few calls.
In the meanwhile, I would argue that homosexuality, like heterosexuality and every shade of bisexuality, is neither “right” nor “wrong”; it simply IS. All sexuality was created at the same time and equally by [fill in the blank]. It is only the human brain that started assigning “moral” judgments about who and what is right or wrong. If there is such a thing a “sin”, this surely is the worst one.
TANK
@dsdrane:
The fact that we evolved the ability to judge things as right and wrong (ethical reasoning, basically) is the worst sin? LOL! Make those calls, and stick to the shallow end.
dsdrane
@TANK:
You wound me, Tank. You wound me.
schlukitz
@dsdrane:
I was in lock-step with you….until you passed through the portals of the Episcopal Church. *wink*
But, if that is what you need to do, then that is what you need to do. ;o)
I just hope that you will not be among the many church-goers (both straight and gay) who will be voting my rights away up in Maine as was just recently done in California.
Brian
@dsdrane: The “human brain” did not start assigning “moral judgments,” Religion did.
Before religion homosexuality was okay, even cool, after religion it was wrong. That’s the truth.
Now, get the documents and thank-you.
dsdrane
@schlukitz:
Not a chance. I grew up in Maine, and I look forward to getting married there next summer (I couldn’t this summer, because the law isn’t yet in effect…otherwise, I would have).
strumpetwindsock
@schlukitz:
Well said.
And frankly I don’t discount Hitchens’s arguments out of hand either.
My own belief that there almost certainly is no god is closer to him than unquestioning religious people.
I have a problem though, when someone’s zeal turns into ridicule and arrogance, and blinds him from seeing anything outside of the toilet paper tube scope he uses to look at the world.
I know there are more than enough zealots on all sides of this issue who fall into that trap.
More importantly, I think they are blind to the fact that ridicule and scorn will do nothing to bridge the impasse, and that religious people are not going to magically disappear.
If we don’t deal with the world and human beings as they really are then all we are doing is bitching and complaining, not working to change things for the better.
dsdrane
@Brian:
“Religion” is also the product of the human brain and is, therefore, ipso facto flawed.
Additionally, it’s my understanding that same-sex unions were conducted and blessed by both Catholic and Orthodox liturgies in the Middle Ages. The late Yale historian John Boswell wrote a book about it (which I’m embarrassed to say I have yet to read…I guess this is as good a time as any to finally getting around to doing that) called “Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe”.
So, assuming “Religion” had it right at one point, this should augur well for getting it right again.
strumpetwindsock
@strumpetwindsock:
There are a lot of moral religious people who support us. In fact they have done much of the gruntwork in many social justice issues.
To ignore that goodwill and hard work is foolish and arrogant.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Magically? Of course not. But, religious people are on the wane, at least in the united states. Atheism is the fastest growing segment. That’s a trend that will continue.
TANK
@TANK:
And why? Because religion needs to be aggressively held accountable for its atrocities, and laughable justifications. It is based upon reasoning a bright child could undermine.
strumpetwindsock
@Brian:
Again, you are spouting fundamentalist dogma.
Not every religious person thinks that way.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Only if you think it’s not provable. I think it is provable.
schlukitz
@TANK:
In response to your post no. 238:
A copy and paste from the link you provided.
However, we are unaware of any other instances in North America where genocide has been actively advocated in recent years.
I seem to recollect Fred Phelps, in one of his many diatribes and rants against on his website http://www.GodHatesFags.com calling for the passing of a federal law making homosexuality a crime punishable by death.
Sounds like genocide to me.
And while not on the scope of genocide, was it not Pat Robertson who called for the assassination of Venezuela’s President Chavez?
http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200508220006
schlukitz
Correction in fourth paragraph: “…in one of his many diatribes and rants against homosexuality on his website…”
TANK
@schlukitz:
But, according canadian law, that’s a special kind of hate speech…that’s due respect and consideration under the law just because they claim skydaddy said it. Punish the criticism of vile hate speech while giving those who are responsible a free ride…that’s the canadian way. They’re very naive…those canadians.
schlukitz
@strumpetwindsock:
Not every religious person thinks that way.
This may well be true, but I do not believe that their looking the other way or turning a blind-eye to what the rest of their parishioners are doing to hurt people, relieves them of any of collective guilt.
If one is a member of the KKK, who does not personally go around burning crosses on the lawns of black people or participate in the public lynching blacks, but religiously attends every clan meeting while enthusiastically applauding condemnation and hate speech against blacks, is he any less guilty than the one who places the rope around the neck of the victim?
schlukitz
@TANK:
I hear you, Tank.
schlukitz
@strumpetwindsock:
If we don’t deal with the world and human beings as they really are then all we are doing is bitching and complaining, not working to change things for the better.
There is a lot of truth in what you say. Unfortunately, and at risk of sounding Godwinian, it is sometime impossible to “deal” with the Hitler’s of the world. They will sit down at the table with with you, but before the ink has even dried on the pact, they will come after you.
Neville Chamberlain made the mistake of thinking that you can “deal” with evil. He found out differently.
On a personal level, I find that not only depressing, but distressing because I do not know what the answer is, much less the solution?
Neil
@Brian:
Okay Brian, here are the documents:
1976 Convention: Resolution A-69 was passed, stating: “It is the sense of this General Convention that homosexual persons are children of God who have a full and equal claim with all other persons upon the love acceptance, and pastoral concern and care of the Church.”
Resolution A-71 was also passed. It states: “This General Convention expresses its conviction that homosexual persons are entitled to equal protection of the laws with all other citizens, and calls upon our society to see that such protection is provided in actuality.”
That should do it for you!
General Convention sets the rules under which our church operates. There is no higher human authority. We have no Pope or Patriarch.
Since these resolutions were passed more than 30 years ago we have moved to ordain openly gay people in committed relationships. (The same standard applied to strait people) to all orders of the clergy.)
In many Episcopal Dioceses Bishops allow the blessings of commitments, civil union and marraiges, depending on what is deemed legal in that jurisdiction and what is acceptable to that Bishop.
People in these relationships are expected to strive for the same moral commitment that strait people are in their marraiges.
If a church allows priests to bless a same-sex relationship and enter the priesthood, does that not say it is not sinful?
I think the message is that it is morally neutral. How you live out the relationship and treat your spouse/companion is where “sin” comes in.
Most Episcopalians are not as obsessed with “sin” in the way that you might be familiar with the word. For us “sin” is that which separates from God and from Each Other. This belief is based on the focal point of Jesus’ teachings. When he was forced with a no win question about which of the commandments was most important he said, “Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself.”
By this measure of sin, I think much of the treatment of “neighbors” on here might be considered a more grievous sin than being gay. But I am not the one to judge that. I can only ask again that people treat one another with respect even when they do not agree.
I am not judging except to say that it is hurtful when people scream LIAR, or accuse one another of not being honest. When people say “you are deluded” what is acomplished?
As I got into the middle of this it seemed such an odd place for a theological discussion… but, upon reflection, it is exactly where we need to have that discussion.
Reminded you that I am not the ultimate judge, I will observe: Many, many people who claim to be Christian in this country are missing the main point of Jesus Christ’s life, whether you view him as the Son of God or just a pretty cool guy, a prophet, who lived the life he preached or if you think it’s a darned good story with many morals as to how we could live a better life and care for each other.
TANK
@Neil:
And yet all of that is consistent with them holding that homosexuality is still sinful to appease the homophobic membership. And there’s a tremendous homophobic membership, dip.
schlukitz
@dsdrane:
Not a chance.
Well then, I guess we can just ignore the 100,000 plus signatures gathered that are double the number needed to put the same-sex marriage issue on a ballot to be voted on this fall?
Isn’t that a little like an ostrich sticking it’s head in the sand?
strumpetwindsock
@schlukitz:
I agree with you; I know that in some places and circumstances that is the case. And that hypocrisy is alive and well.
On the other hand, you shouldn’t let that blind you to the fact that in many cases the opposite is true.
In our country the only political party which has a foundation in religious movements is our most left-wing socialist party. From workers’ rights, anti-poverty work, universal medicare, women’s issues, prison reform and gay rights.
I don’t often step inside a church, but when I do it is often to visit an Amnesty International, John Howard Society, or Food Bank office that is set up in the basement.
And any people I know of who were resisting unfair deportation didn’t run to the library or university to find sanctuary. They went to one of the social-minded churches where congregations were willing to support them.
I’ll say it again. I am with you when it comes to judgemental, right-wing Christians. But if you assume that every religious congregation is like that you are mistaken.
It’s a disservice to people who are working very hard to change things for the better.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
ANd yet they change nothing with regard to those fundamentalist beliefs which cause harm, and support those beliefs and the people who hold them by claiming the same faith they use to justify them.
TANK
@TANK:
claiming and defending that faith.
youcanthandlethetruth
@TANK: They don’t say homosexuality is sinful to “appease the homophobic membership”.
They say homosexuality is sinful because that’s what God’s Word says.
It’s amazing how far homosexuals will go to turn truth and linguistics upside down in a frantic attempt to normalise their abnormal behaviour.
dsdrane
@schlukitz:
No, Silly…I’m saying (were I a voter in Maine) that not only would I not vote to reverse the new law, but I would fight to make sure it was not reversed. Given that 2010 is a non-presidential-year election with a no doubt lower voter turnout, the fact that 100,000 signatures have been collected so far to force a referendum on the new law is something we should all take very seriously. Sadly, I won’t be surprised if the law is indeed overturned. If it is, it will go to the state Supreme Court, where I think the issue will finally be decided in our favor.
This ostrich’s head is sand-free, Friend.
TANK
It’s amazing how far homosexuals will go to turn truth and linguistics upside down in a frantic attempt to normalise their abnormal behaviour.
Some homosexuals go very far. Agreed. They’re usually religious, though–which is mental illness.
TANK
@dsdrane:
LOL! You’re completely delusional if you think the state supreme court would overrule a referendum.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
That is false. You are lying again.
youcanthandlethetruth
God Willing the people of Maine will be able to overthrow the redefinition of marriage to accommodate homosexuals, which was forced on them against their will.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Prove it. It doesn’t seem false to me. Fundamentalist christians view moderate christians as nothing but failed fundamentalists. MOderates don’t pretend to teach them the real meaning of their book… This is embarrassingly naive. But you’re canadian, and believe that hate speech from a religious source should be protected, but criticism of that should be punished.
dsdrane
@youcanthandlethetruth:
“God’s Word” says a lot of things, as you know. Shall we come up with a list of the things that no one pays attention to? or perhaps a list of things YOU no longer pay attention to?
Oh, YouCan…it’s been such a lovely interval since you last graced our happy little thread…what have you been up to? Spreading charm elsewhere, no doubt. Don’t let us keep you from that important work.
You can go back to your Kapo now and report honestly that you have “witnessed” over at the queer site. I’m glad we could help.
dsdrane
@TANK:
Then color me delusional.
Tank, do you need a hug?
TANK
@dsdrane:
LOL! And everything worked out in the end, because god is good?
dsdrane
@TANK:
Haha…no, because I have faith in the process…and the people of Maine. Being all alone up there in the far northeast corner, change comes slowly to Maine…but, when it does come, it usually sticks. There’s a Yankee/Don’t Tread On Me mentality, and they don’t take kindly to interference from “outta-statahs”. The Fundies aside, there’s a live-and-let-live ethos born of a harsh climate and many rural areas. You simply can’t hate your neighbor when you may need their help when a storm hits, your barn is on fire, etc.
Further, as we’ve come to expect, YouCan is wrong when s/he says the inclusion of gay people in the marriage law was forced upon the people of Maine. The change came from the duly-elected legislature. It also happened to follow law changes in the rest of New England (with the current exception of RI).
Neil
@TANK:
You might want to go looking for testimony given by the Episcopal Bishop of Maine, Steve Lane. He’s a dear friend and a great guy. He testified in favor of Major equality and I am sure he will publicly oppose the vote that is trying to undo it.
The Episcopal Church as you will see above and in many areas of the country, is on the right side of this issue. It is paying a price with its more conservative members and with the Anglican Communion. I think that should immunize us to some degree from the invectives being hurled here… and maybe even draw some people in who are predisposed to believing that religion can be a good influence.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
TANK my dear, have you been drinking again?
In the first place, none of that makes any sense, and secondly, why are you once again taking the fundamentalist position as the last word on what reform Christians believe? Is it because you need them to prop up your argument?
Neil
@TANK:
Actually the homophobes in the church are that way because they have been raised with a very black or white view of the world. Witness “you can’t handle the truth.” And from what I see in your comments here that is your position as well, except in the “religion could not possibly have anything to positive to contribute” camp.
I think that your polar opposite gives credence to the other side. There are no shades of grey.
Classical Anglicanism is built on a three-lesgged stool of scripture, tradition and reason. The Fundamentalists, who are loathe to admit that a strict innerent reading of the Bible is a relatively modern phenomenon, do not account that a mere parishioner might find something for themselves that in scripture that is not pointed out by the ordained… who of course have everything to lose by sharing their power.
We like to say we don’t ask you to “check your brain at the door.”
I could point you to so many interesting sources if you really wanted to enlighten yourself about our church. Father Matthew has some great stuff at his website. Read Bill Countryman… and of course there is our resident heretic Bishop Jack Spong.
I am proud to be an Episcopalian. In my parish no one is turned away. Some may leave because they find our openness unnerving but hey, it’s not for everyone… only those who are open to change and to seeing new views in old wisdom.
Pax!
strumpetwindsock
@dsdrane:
Plus they aren’t all alone.
They are surrounded by states and provinces where marriage equality is the law, and yet churches haven’t been forced to go against their dogma if they don’t wish to do so.
Brian
@dsdrane: @Neil: That does NOT un-wrong homosexuality. Why don’t you understand this?
To be “Christian” is to believe the Bible. It is to believe that homosexuality is a sin. You cannot simply say “hey homos, come here and worship” and that somehow changes those beliefs.
Like everyone in here has said repeatedly get them to formally declare that “homosexuality in not a sin and it is NOT WRONG.” That’s what they need to say to change their doctrine.
To suggest they don’t really “take the Bible literally or have much doctrine” begs the question “why call yourselves Episcopalians or Christians?
Please get the formal declaration – it would be big news.
Brian
@Neil: The Episcopal Bishop in Dallas, Texas as reported in the Dallas Morning News:
Bishop James Stanton says the Episcopal Diocese of Dallas won’t join in what he sees as the Episcopal Church’s growing acceptance of gay unions.
“We will not consent to the election of a bishop living in a same-sex relationship, and we will not allow the blessings of same-sex relationships,” Stanton said in a letter to clergy.
Stanton, a theological conservative, wrote in response to the recent General Convention of the Episcopal Church.
The General Convention passed a resolution noting that some states now allow gay marriage, and calling on the denomination to “develop theological and liturgical resources” in response. The resolution stopped short of authorizing rites for gay unions.
While acknowledging that the Dallas diocese has many gay members, Stanton said it will continue “affirming the primacy of scripture, the sanctity of marriage and the call to holiness of life.”
FOR THE DALLAS FRANCHISE OF EPISCOPALIAN IT IS CLEARLY STILL WRONG TO BE A HOMOSEXUAL – THEY ARE FOLLOWING THE RULES.
Now, ask the Franchisor (Anglican, I believe) If they will declare that Homosexuality is NOT WRONG? If the did this whole enterprise would implode. The franchisees would go crazy and stop paying their dues.
Ever since Vicki Gene was draped in a rainbow Bishop outfit 20% of the Episcopal Churches have left the flock. If they “un-wrong” homosexuality THEY’LL ALL LEAVE.
Neil? Neil? Where is the It’s-Not-Wrong Declaration??
Brian
@Neil: It doesn’t matter if you have a few colorful, wayward Episcopalians – the OFFICIAL POSITION of your Religion is that HOMOSEXUALS ARE WRONG.
Jesus F-ing Christ, you really need to be honest about this Neil. The organization your support makes us wrong. It doesn’t matter if there are a few mis-fits that “disagree,” the official doctrine stands.
This god damned stool of yours???? One leg is “reason?” Really and what is this leg crippled or something? This “reason” actually allows you to believe in magic? You may not use that stool reference again. It’s so far beyond delusional that it makes my brain hurt.
Now, get the documentation – young teens are still considering suicide. In fact we lose about 5 young gay people a day in the US BECAUSE OF RELIGION. The sooner you get the docs, the sooner the dying will end.
dsdrane
@Brian:
Brian, I hear you loud and clear. In your view, Christianity says homosexuality is wrong. I get it.
What I and others have been trying to say is that we refuse to let history or certain people who call themselves “Christian” define what Christianity means to us. It’s not just their church; it’s my church, too. Dogmas can go pound sand; I don’t need their say-so to know that I am a child of God and that I am good…or “not wrong”, as you say.
As far as “believing in the Bible” goes, do I believe the Bible exists? Yes. Do I believe that this book called the “Bible” is actually a library of books, written over the centuries by different people with different aims, that contain sometimes wildly contradictory information? Yes. Do I believe the words of the Bible were written by man? Yes. Do I believe they were imbued by “the Spirit” to take down “God’s word”? Some certainly felt that they were, others not so much. Do I believe, having said this, that the whole thing should be tossed aside as rubbish? No. Even if it were all myth, all made up, there are timeless lessons and teachings that can and should have relevance. And not just the Bible, but also the Talmud, the Koran, Buddha’s teachings, etc. Regardless about how individuals see them, and in spite of how people continue to misuse them, they are historical texts that are woven into the daily life of just about everyone on Earth.
There isn’t so much a “Christianity”, in practice; rather, there are “Christianities”. Catholics, Baptists, Russian Orthodox, and Episcopalians, etc., all come from the same root, but, given different interpretations over time, they have split off. They all have different traditions and call on their parishioners to accept a particular view of theology. Southern Baptists would no doubt run screaming from my parish, and I would probably react similarly at theirs.
I call myself a Christian insofar as I try to follow Christ’s command to love God and love one another. He never said anything about being straight as a prerequisite. I call myself an Episcopalian because of their particular theology, because there is no Pope but rather a more democratically-run power structure, because they observe a lot of the old rituals (the “smells and bells”), because I like the music, because my fellow parishioners tend to be highly educated, because of their inner struggle to right historic wrongs with respect to slavery, women, gays, etc., and because it’s where my heart and head are at home.
If that particular calculus doesn’t add up for you, so be it. It only has to make sense to me.
Neil
@Brian:
OK Brian. I give. There are none so blind as those who will no see. I gave you exactly what you asked for. The document.
You may rail and scream and swear… but you are a lone voice crying in the wilderness.
I’m working hard within an institution and effecting change. What is it that you are doing except acting rudely?
You continue down your path of anger. All I can think of when I read your rants is that you have become what you rail against. What Joe Jervis calls, “The haters.”
You mind is more closed than most right-wingers I know.
Neil
PS: I am unsubscribing. Time to shake the dust off my sandals and move on…
youcanthandlethetruth
@Neil: You seem to infer that some Christian churches turn away homosexuals?
I don’t know of any church where this is the case, perhaps you can give examples.
All churches open their doors to sinners of all kinds, including homosexuals, because we are all sinners.
“For we have all sinned and gone astray, we have gone every one to our own way”.
dsdrane
@Brian:
Brian, you wrote: “…the OFFICIAL POSITION of your Religion is that HOMOSEXUALS ARE WRONG.”
I think Neil has already given you ample proof that this simply is not the case. In fact, you yourself have provided proof in the news story about the Dallas Bishop. Why do you think he’s so upset? Why do you think some Episcopal dioceses have left the church, choosing to link up with other Anglican churches, like the Church of Nigeria? It is exactly because the church has voted repeatedly, most recently and most explicitally just last month in Anaheim, that homosexuality is “not wrong”. The fact that you ask for more proof than that strikes me as using semantics to prop up your sworn enemy.
If you want to rail against religiously-inspired biogtry and hatred that results in so much unhappiness and, indeed, suicides, I suggest you bark up another tree. There all plenty out there deserving your attention…all of our attention.
But with this church, you’re merely preaching to the choir.
dsdrane
@dsdrane:
Perhaps you can start with YouCan. S/he seems ripe for picking.
Brian
@dsdrane: A Document that “welcomes homosexuals” does not erase the part of Anglican Doctrine that says directly “homosexuality is wrong.”
Why not ask your leaders for a very simple, straightforward statement that Homosexuality is not a sin and not wrong? Why not just swing by the Cathedral and get it in wring? it doesn’t seem very hard. Maybe send an email to Bishop Vicki – ask him to confirm it’s not a sin. Come on, it’s easy.
Neil – Christians don’t quit. They deliver. If it is so clear that homosexuality is not condemned anymore at your Church – let’s see the proof.
Brian
@dsdrane: There is nothing different than the position of Episcopalians and those crazy Baptists when it comes to homosexuality – they both make it very wrong. Now, your bunch made a good marketing decision to welcome the gays, but homosexuals are equally wrong at both religions.
So, you and Neil belong to a club that “officially” makes homosexuals wrong, deviant and defective – the kind of stuff that leads to gay teen suicide. It doesn’t matter if it is shouted or whispered – making homosexuals wrong happens at ALL religious institutions.
Find some documentation DSDRANE and go wash your Christian hands.
InExile
@youcanthandlethetruth: Quit calling us homosexuals, it sounds so clinical. The term is gay, good as you is what it stands for.
Brian
@dsdrane: Episcopalians have NEVER “voted” about whether or not homosexuality was “wrong.” Never.
Welcoming, affirming and even ordaining is not the same as declaring that homosexuality is Not Wrong. Ask for that. You’ll never get it. You won’t even get the “vote” about homos, because that would affect marketing plans.
I hope you are serious enough to find the truth here. It is important. This thread has continued for a few days – enough time for 15 gay teens to take their own lives. Yeah, it’s that important.
dsdrane
@Brian:
Better yet, Brian, why don’t you write Bishop Robinson. I have no need.
Your argument also betrays a lack of understanding about how the Anglican Communion works. It’s a very loose confederation of national churches that share a common mother church: the Church of England. That’s it. The Archbishop of Canterbury has no power whatsoever over individual national churches. This is precisely why some Episcopalians have switched their allegience to other national churches. They no longer believe they are in tune with their own national church. This is a shame, but it’s probably for the best.
It’s no accident that the Episcopal Church was founded about the same time as the American Revolution. Episcopalians would no sooner listen to the dictates of the CoE any more than American colonists would listen to the dictates of King George.
You cannot make an omelette without breaking some eggs. It was true then and it’s true now.
youcanthandlethetruth
@Brian: Christianity is not a “club”.
Christian churches don’t “make homosexuals wrong”. They simply follow God’s Word which makes it clear that homosexuality is a sin.
But then every body sins so it’s not a differentiator
Except that Christianity teaches us to repent our sins and to “go and sin no more”.
Turning a sinful behaviour into a lifestyle, promoting it as acceptable and normal, and redefining marriage to accommodate homosexuality – all go against Christian doctrine.
dsdrane
@Brian:
I’m sorry you’re so hung up on the word “wrong”. But you are, so there it is.
I doubt statistics are kept about which church or denomination directly or indirectly contributed to someone taking their life, at whatever age. If such data exists, I’d be willing to bet few to zero had anything to do with the Episcopal Church, or the United Church of Christ, or the Unitarians, or Reformed Jews.
There’s plenty of religiously-inspired homophobia out there to confront if you’re truly as concerned as you claim, so, by all means, have at it. You’ll get no argument from me.
dsdrane
@youcanthandlethetruth:
“So you say.”
dsdrane
@youcanthandlethetruth:
I just had a great idea. Do you like a challenge? Sure you do. Proselytizing here is all well and good, but if you want to go head-to-head with the big boys, you should shop your brand of dogma over at Soulforce. (www.soulforce.org) They just love people like you. I’ll even come and watch…it’ll be fun!
youcanthandlethetruth
@dsdrane: Is that some kind of homosexual group that tries to re-interpret God’s Word such that homosexuality is no longer a sin?
dsdrane
@youcanthandlethetruth:
You betcha, Buckwheat. ‘Course, there are straight people there too…and clergy…even non-loosey-goosey, non-Episcopal, straight clergy. You should check it out!
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Okay, ad hominem abusive. I don’t drink regularly, you cunt. Secondly, you have no argument whatsoever. You’ve never had an argument. You make bare assertions. THis is your only claims–not all christians are antigay and bigoted. Well, no one’s disagreeing. There are, apparently, people who call themselves christian who aren’t explicitly antigay like fred phelps. That doesn’t mean that congregations which are the westboro baptists don’t bear responsibility for their antigay christian brethren. Do you get it? THey aren’t somehow given a magical pass simply because there brand of christianity isn’t antigay. THey affirm a faith (christianity) which is for the most part, virulently antigay. They defend a faith which causes young men and women to commit suicide because they can’t cope with made up skydaddy’s judgment. They aren’t inexplicably recused from blame for this–for their faith plays a DIRECT and IMMEDIATE role in homophobia played out across the globe.
Now if you don’t have an argument, shut the fuck up–because as far as I can tell, you haven’t provided one yet.
TANK
@dsdrane:
Yeah, and look at where that faith in the process has gotten gay rights in the united states as a whole. You sir, are dangerously naive and silly. You believe that courts will overturn state referendums because…well, there is no good for your beliefs, which is something you’re used to not having (justification). You’re a privileged, clueless church faggot. I genuinely hope you aren’t anywhere near impacting anyone else’s life but your own, because you’re dangerously incompetent and naive.
TANK
Responsibility doesn’t begin and end with religion because one person doesn’t gay bash who’s a member of that faith (christianity, in this case), just like it doesn’t end when you see a car accident on the freeway and refuse to so much as make a cellphone call to the 911…you people are amazingly disgusting. You exist in a moral vacuum.
TANK
@TANK:
to 911 rather. just because you didn’t cause the car accident, doesn’t mean you’re not ethically responsible (and legally) to assist by making a call.
TANK
You bastards talk of making a difference when the all difference you fucks have made is defending a faith in which many, many members are antigay bigots and add to the sum of human suffering globally.
TANK
@dsdrane:
This is why your ass will always remain a complete fucking joke to mainstream christians–and to religious fundamentalists. A TOTAL and COMPLETE joke. YOu make no difference, and sustain the status quo.
TANK
@TANK:
aren’t the westboro baptists even.
Brian
@dsdrane: You have not shown in any of your ranting that the Episcopalians are willing to declare that “homosexuality is not a sin, not wrong and not deviant.” Therefore, it still is WRONG at your Episcopalian Christian Club. To simply suggest that “gee whiz, we all have different ideas” while standing under a sign that reads “homosexuality is wrong” is an absurd argument. Do your gay brothers and sisters a favor and get OUT from under that sign. If you still can’t SEE that sign – get help.
schlukitz
@youcanthandlethetruth:
all go against Christian doctrine.
Tough titty!
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
No ad hominem TANK, just trying to offer you an excuse, but if you are fine with making nonsensical comments while completely sober that is your choice.
Would you mind giving Brian a slap please? His needle seems to be stuck on “homosexuality is a sin and you can’t prove that it isn’t”.
Let me know when you boys decide to join the rest of us in this century.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
A total dodge. Once again not providing a single arugment in favor of your claims, and trying to engage in ad hominems. Way to stay substantive, you brain clott.
InExile
@schlukitz</@schlukitz: They use all kinds of crap to justify their bigotry and hatred. What ever happened to Christians being against war and helping poor people and the sick? Not profitably I guess. They are all about ME, ME, and money. The Bible is their vehicle to get what THEY want for themselves.
Dash
@Brian:
If I understand you (and others here) the argument boils down to guilt by association: those who identify with Christianity thereby own equal culpability for all the evils done in the name of Christianity.
The argument seems fallacious to me…and obviously so, so I’m surprised that it is being pursued so vigorously. I have a particular surname, I’
schlukitz
@InExile:
@youcanthandlethetruth: Quit calling us homosexuals, it sounds so clinical. The term is gay, good as you is what it stands for.
YOucanthandlethetruth CHOOSES to use the clinical sounding and aloof term of “homosexual” in order to maintain his imagined moral superiority over the rest of us abominable gays and to maintain the illusion that we are nothing more laboratory guinea pigs to be observed under a microscope, studied and experimented with.
This is often the case with Christians whose own self-esteem is shot to hell and feel the need to flagellate themselves by repeating over and over, “We are all sinners”.
Misery, after all, loves company…especially when that misery is Christianity!
Anyone for a hair-shirt and a quirt?
Dash
@Dash:
(silly keyboard) …as I was saying…
If I have a particular surname, I am not therefore guilty of a crime that another person who shares that name may do. I’m a member of a club, but that doesn’t make me guilty of crimes other members commit. I’m a member of family, but that doesn’t make me guilty of crimes my brothers, sisters, mother or father commit. I’m an American, but that doesn’t make me guilty of all the crimes Americans, or America commits. I’m a human, but that doesn’t make me guilty of all the many crimes humans commit.
I’m guilty only for the things I have done. No matter how folks outside the group may want me to be guilty, it just isn’t so.
Brian
@Dash: It is not guilt by association it is “aiding and abetting the enemy.”
Religion makes homosexuals wrong, sinners and deviant. That is a lie. We must reject that lie. If we don’t we will NEVER be EQUAL.
If some people are a part of a religious institution that “welcomes” and even “affirms” homosexuals, but that same institution still believes that homosexuals are “wrong,” then they shouldn’t support them. It’s that simple.
1% of the churches in the US welcome gays and lesbians, 100% still make them wrong. That’s the problem.
TANK
Here’s the premise that connects them and renders your “counterexamples” and attempted reductio a strawman. This isn’t guilt by association, this is christians who actively defend their faith and claim it. This is something they can choose to avoid or change, and it’s something they support. Therefore, a christian who supports and defends christianity does have a responsibility for what gets carried out because of christianity by others.
youcanthandlethetruth
@schlukitz: Why are you so afraid to be called homosexuals?
Isn’t that the correct name for what you are?
Calling you “gay” just facilitates your delusion.
schlukitz
@InExile:
Re: your post no. 319.
If the Christians (and the Mormons) did not have the “queers” to rail against, how else would they have been able to raise the kind of money YesonProp8 garnered?
Bigotry, hatred and discrimination are all time-tested, proven money-makers. They can’t beat-up on the blacks anymore, because there are federal laws that prohibit that sort of abuse.
When the day finally arrives that federal law no longer allows the Church to beat-up on the gays, who then will take their place and what will happen to their coffers?
They might actually have to beg their parishioners to cough-up some money to feed all of the starving children in the world and provide them with some decent medical care.
The question is, will that motivate them to give as much and as often, as hating queers does?
Guess we will just have to wait and see!
schlukitz
@youcanthandlethetruth:
@schlukitz: Why are you so afraid to be called homosexuals?
I justt explained it for you, Buckwheat.
Guess reading and comprehension are not one of your strong suits!
youcanthandlethetruth
@schlukitz: Actually I just explained it to you – you just dodged the question – why are you so worried when we use the correct word?
I thought you were proud to be a homosexual?
schlukitz
@Dash:
Wow! What a moral vacuum you exist in.
How similar your argument sounds to the ones made by the defendants at the Nuremburg trials.
“I was merely doing my job.”
schlukitz
@youcanthandlethetruth:
I “dodged” your question, because I don’t let myself get derailed by dabblers in semantics and fact-twisters like you.
The issue here is that you have decided, on your own, what YOU feel like calling us, not what we have asked to be called, because you know that it will belittle us in much the same as a white boy insisting on calling a black person a “colored boy’, a “spade” or some other equally derisive term for the sheer joy of pissing someone off.
And by doing this, you are displaying your gross arrogance, your ignorance and the fact that despite all of the Christian claims about loving the sinner but hating the sin, that you really do not have any respect for the sinner either when you get right down to the heart of the matter.
All of which means, Buckwheat, that you are a fucking bald-faced, abominable liar and a bag of wind and that through some cruel twist of nature, your asshole wound-up up where your mouth should be, because there is nothing but shit emanating from it!
schlukitz
@youcanthandlethetruth:
Oh..and by the way…
It’s Mr. Faggot, to you!
schlukitz
@TANK:
LOL! You’re completely delusional if you think the state supreme court would overrule a referendum.
Yeah. That worked out real well in California, didn’t it? LOL
dsdrane
Oh Brian, I have nothing left to say to you. You’re an abyss I no longer care to shout into.
And Tank, I’ve been called silly and incompetent by better men than you. Please.
As for naive, I don’t think so. I refer you to Post #239. Please submit your credentials, and I’ll consider re-evaluating.
As for being a “privileged, clueless church faggot”, I’ll gladly own “privileged”, “church” and “faggot” [honestly, Tank, name-calling is really the last resort for the desparate…shame on you], but I draw the line at “clueless”. “Willfully unaware” is something I could accept, but not “clueless”. I indeed have a clue — a number of clues, in fact.
Ah, but now it’s dinnertime. Talk amongst yourselves. Here, I’ll give you a topic: Tank is a big, beautiful lug.
Discuss.
dsdrane
@schlukitz:
LOL! You’re completely delusional if you think the state supreme court would overrule a referendum.
Yeah. That worked out real well in California, didn’t it? LOL
And yet it worked in Iowa and Massachusetts. Things that make you say “hmmm”.
dsdrane
What’s the matter, everyone? Doesn’t anybody think Tank is a big, beautiful lug??
TANK
@dsdrane:
Be that as it may, you’re an incompetent boob. LMAO! It’s like jack handy’s deep thoughts.
dsdrane
I love the word boob. It’s a great word. And, if you turn it upside-down, it spells “poop”.
dsdrane
Hey, wait a minute….
youcanthandlethetruth
@schlukitz: How is calling a homosexual a homosexual twisting words?
It’s simply using the correct English language word.
Oxford English Dictionary
homosexual • adjective feeling or involving sexual attraction to people of one’s own sex.
• noun a homosexual person.
IF you feel that being called a homosexual is somehow demeaning then that is something you have to deal with.
Perhaps deep down you are ashamed of being homosexual and that’s why you have such anger issues.
dsdrane
@youcanthandlethetruth:
Oh shut up.
Brian
@dsdrane: youcanthandlethetruth is on YOUR team.
schlukitz
@youcanthandlethetruth:
It’s a deal. You can call me a homosexual.
You won’t mind then if I call you a Christer who is also a breeder, will you?
youcanthandlethetruth
@schlukitz: I would prefer you follow my example and use the correct English words – Christian and parent.
Leave the childish name-calling in the playground.
schlukitz
@youcanthandlethetruth:
@schlukitz: I would prefer you follow my example and use the correct English words – Christian and parent.
Fair enough.
Then I would prefer that you to follow your own example and call me by the name that we of the LGBT community have chosen and which identifies ourselves as self-respecting human beings who are equal in status to heterosexuals and not inferior, second-class citizens.
Leave the clinical name-calling designed to make us look like laboratory mice in the laboratory.
youcanthandlethetruth
@schlukitz: Why do you think the word ‘homosexual’ makes you inferior, second-class citizens?
I already showed you it’s the correct word according to the Oxford Dictionary.
schlukitz
@youcanthandlethetruth:
Why do you think the word ‘homosexual’ makes you inferior, second-class citizens?
You’re a real controller, aren’t you? You are, of course, aware that you are toying with me and trying to mind-fuck me. Right?
You wish to impose your will on me by insisting that I respetfully address you as a Christian and a parent, while you retain the right to address LGBT people by a term that straight, homophobic, religious persons like yourself have imbued with a negative and deprecating connotation, despite have been politely asked to refer to us by the term we have adopted for ourselves.
This indicates that you will only play the game, if you get to make the rules.
The following word is also in the dictionary. It’s a correct word to describe someone like you who is attempting to run this mind-game past we gays.
The word is shithead.
shit?head
??/???t?h?d/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [shit-hed] Show IPA
Use shithead in a Sentence
–noun Slang: Vulgar.
a stupid, inept, unlikable, or contemptible person.
Origin:
1910–15; shit + head
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.
Having shown you that it’s the correct word according to the Ramdom House dictionary, why would you think the word shithead makes you any less of a person?
dsdrane
@youcanthandlethetruth:
I beg to differ. Whereas you may be a parent, you are not a Christian. I know this because you are here, sowing discord, self-doubt and hurt. Perhaps you think you are doing it “to help”, “to save”, ” to love”…or, perhaps, you do and say everything knowingly and are simply a sadist. Either way, your presence here is misguided and unwelcome.
There is no way your purported savior would approve, and you know it.
You should go now.
schlukitz
@dsdrane:
And yet it worked in Iowa and Massachusetts. Things that make you say “hmmm”.
Hmmm…point well taken. LOL
dsdrane
Just as clarification, Andrew wrote earlier:
“@dsdrane: The “hats,” idiot. All the MCC and Soulforce money is “co-mingled.” And, yes prosecutors use that expression. We have never been able to get any reliable financial info from MCC or Soulforce and they are routinely investigated, but Religion gets a lot of wiggle room.”
I contacted the staff at Soulforce to ask them directly about any financial connection between Soulforce and the MCC. Staffperson Kara Speltz wrote back the following:
“While, I would suspect that lots of MCC clergy and members support Soulforce as individuals, there is no financial connection between the two organizations.”
I’d love to know who the “we” are who “routinely investigate”, though. Perhaps Andrew can shed some light….
youcanthandlethetruth
@schlukitz: Schlukitz in addition to your homosexual behaviour patterns you have got some serious personality issues.
Brian
@dsdrane: Did you ask Kara for some financial records? It’s easy to tell the receptionist what to say. It’s a little different to provide documents.
Several people involved with MCC AND Soulforce control about $15 million in annual contributions. This “religious” effort does not provide docuemtnation of their spending.
Call Kara and ask her. Ask how the money has been spent.
dsdrane
@Brian:
I refer you to Post 333.
dsdrane
@youcanthandlethetruth:
“@schlukitz: Schlukitz in addition to your homosexual behaviour patterns you have got some serious personality issues.”
And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is the pot calling the kettle black.
Brian
@dsdrane: As long as it’s clear that you don’t care how MCC and Soulforce spend $15 million “gay dollars” a year with their religious charade. I guess “in the name of God” just creates a free-for-all mentality, huh?
MCC has 43,000 members, yet claims the only receive about $3 million a year. That’s about $70 each or $1.35 per week. For this reason the IRS has made several inquiries about their finances. The average US Church member gives +$500 per year.
Religion, even with all the damage it has created in the world, has NO regulation. It is a License to steal.
TANK
@Brian:
I love it when people like dsdraen basically say that there’s no definitive criterion for christianity (and there is), and that it’s just a vague hodge podge of whatever you want to believe in, and then say that those who disagree with them aren’t “true christians”. It’s hilarious.
dsdrane
Anyone feeling the need, for whatever reason, to learn more about Soulforce, can get its contact information at their website: http://www.soulforce.org. Simply click on the “press room” tab on their banner.
dsdrane
@TANK:
Spell my name correctly if you wish to insult properly, Tank.
dsdrane
@TANK:
Further, I never said there was no definitive criteria. Here, I’ll give you one: a Christian doesn’t come onto a gay website to abuse the patrons.
Only other gay people to that.
dsdrane
What IS hilarious, and deeply sad, is the fact that you cannot see the forest for the trees. You appear perfectly content to allow people like YouCan to pollute the site while conducting some sort of fascistic purge of gay people you don’t like.
How very Fox News of you.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Well it’s not as ridiculous as your argument that all Christians fit into the same literalist, fundamentalist definition.
There are thousands of different religions that are Christian, many of them so different that they have fought wars over it.
Even in one of the most established churches – the Catholics – there is a big difference between a gay-friendly Dignity congregation and ultra orthodox Lefebvreists.
There’s also a big difference between esoteric Sufis and the Taliban.
As a matter of fact TANK, when given the freedom people do believe whatever they want, and some of them join churches which reflect their world-view. But if you think there is no variation, disagreement and no conflict, you need to learn a thing or two about human beings.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
This is yet another exhausting strawman. Nowhere did I say that all christians are the same. Of course there are different denominations of the same faith–but they are all christian for a reason. THere is something that unifies them, and connects them under the banner of christianity. These are distinct set of rituals, ideas, and traditions. And once again, just because one christian isn’t antigay doesn’t mean he’s not responsible for another who is because of christianity.
TANK
@dsdrane:
But apparently a christian does. A true christian, too…because you see, there’s no such thing as a “true” christian because there’s no such thing as a false christian…they all appeal to the same book–and there’s no right reading and wrong reading.
dsdrane
@strumpetwindsock:
Hey, I think you might be on to something! What if this “person” — “Tank” — the person we’ve come to know and love, what if this “person” were actually a computer program that automatically peppered any thread with abusive comments??
My God, it’s genius!!
TANK
@TANK:
This distinction you’re upholding now (true vs. false christian) implicitly, is where a good deal of the religious violence comes from. “TALKING MARSHMELLOW SPOKE TO ME, NOT YOU!” “NO, TALKING MARSHMELLOW SPOKE TO ME, HEATHEN! I’LL KILL YOU!” That’s a summary of religious based conflict between two sects of the same faith throughout history.
dsdrane
@TANK:
And the fascist, hating everyone who isn’t like himself, just kills them both. They are equal-opportunity haters.
dsdrane
And I thought it was Skydaddy.
TANK
@dsdrane:
Right, because obviously I’m very pro fascist. This is a primitive defense mechanism built into your religious meme–anyone who disagrees with you is a fascist.
dsdrane
If you’re going to malign, please stick to one symbol. Otherwise, it just gets confusing, you know?
youcanthandlethetruth
@dsdrane: How am I polluting the site by offering a coherent, opposing, real-world view?
Do you really want to sit around crying on each other’s homosexual shoulders?
FYI I’m not big fan of Fox News either although I do watch it quite a bit.
TANK
@dsdrane:
You’re easily confused.
dsdrane
No, tank, you’re a fascist because you don’t like anybody and you require strict discipline and obedience…or else.
A fascist or a putz…I get them confused sometimes.
TANK
And malign people? Oy…that’s that christian martyr complex. Youcant uses it too when people call it out on its hate speech.
dsdrane
@youcanthandlethetruth:
Poison pollutes. And you peddle poison.
TANK
@dsdrane:
Dishapwin? You WACK DISHAPWIN, GWASSHOPPAH!
dsdrane
@TANK:
Tank, I have no martyr complex; I’m way too privileged for that, remember? You, on the other hand….
TANK
@dsdrane:
Or else what? I’ll hurt your feelings by calling you what you are–irrational? Boohooooooo, christianity is SUCH an extreme and oppressed minority in the united states!
TANK
@dsdrane:
Yes, you are a privileged church fag. But those people scream the loudest about the sleights and hardships they have to endure.
dsdrane
@TANK:
You really are a trip. I admire your pitbull-ish tenacity, though I could do without the immaturity.
You remind me of my ex. You wouldn’t happen to be Jewish by any chance?
dsdrane
@TANK:
“Yes, you are a privileged church fag.”
Don’t forget good-looking.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Using that kind of reasoning I could hold you, as a tax-paying American, personally responsible for the torture in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib.
I could also hold your hero, Mr. Hitchens, personally responsible for the Abrahamic cult history of violence because he hasn’t cut all his ties with that fairy tale cult either. After all, he made sure that his family celebrates the Seder every year.
As a matter of fact, you are guilty yourself (more guilty than me, actually), since you believe in the literal Egyptian enslavement of the Israelites, which has no historical foundation other than the Bible.
Me, I have no firm belief that anything in the Bible is historical truth (though I do believe it is an inspirational book).
Fortunately some of us (including Mr. Hitchens, it would seem) aren’t quite so quick to damn people by association.
TANK
Using that kind of reasoning I could hold you, as a tax-paying American, personally responsible for the torture in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib.
You could. The difference is that we’re (tax paying americans) compelled by threat of force to pay taxes through legal means, whereas christianity is an option–you’re not going to go to prison (like that kent hovind) for not believing in god. And I do think that citizens of any representative government share in the blame of the actions of that government. We’re all responsible…you see, for what goes on in the world.
I could also hold your hero, Mr. Hitchens, personally responsible for the Abrahamic cult history of violence because he hasn’t cut all his ties with that fairy tale cult either. After all, he made sure that his family celebrates the Seder every year.
DOes he? Well, sometimes ritual is fun. I don’t think it’s hurting anyone given how he blasts the beliefs behind it into particulate.
As a matter of fact, you are guilty yourself (more guilty than me, actually), since you believe in the literal Egyptian enslavement of the Israelites, which has no historical foundation other than the Bible.
Do I?
Me, I have no firm belief that anything in the Bible is historical truth (though I do believe it is an inspirational book).
Yet you defend the lies and superstition passionately.
Fortunately some of us (including Mr. Hitchens, it would seem) aren’t quite so quick to damn people by association.
No, I think he is. It’s not guilt by association–it’s guilt by participation.
getreal
@dsdrane: There are certain people who come onto this site daily for the express purpose of being verbally abusive. It isn’t personal they have a need either because an abusive childhood, mental illness, or just loneliness to try to create a relationship with complete strangers through these feuds they create in their heads.Read back through a week of queerty and you will see the same posters verbally attacking anyone who won’t subscribe exactly to their narrow way of thinking. If you aren’t an atheisits fundamentalist than you are the pope. They rail against sexism but call women cunts. Whatever will get someone to pay attention. It all very confused and silly. It is lonely people who weren’t held as children desperate for attention and if they attack people and people defend themselves they are happy because they are getting attention.From a sociological point of view it;s funny but I’ve learned to just not read posts by the crazies. Anyone who gets too over the top angry at a stranger on a website thread probably has a lot of other problems…
strumpetwindsock
@dsdrane:
@TANK:
Ha! He’s got your number, slim.
BTW dsdrane, here’s a great quote about literalism from a true hero (he’s the guy who brought universal medicare to our country:
http://books.google.com/books?id=4m-Pj7vWMGEC&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=Douglas+%22bull+fiddle%22&source=bl&ots=zTmYdzHOjs&sig=X94dqxd3m2WHp3snsPHRs9Cz22c&hl=en&ei=i9p5SsufOIK0Ntf0nKMO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#v=onepage&q=&f=false
TANK
@getreal:
Yeah…you’re the very picture of mental health being an active roman catholic (invisible friends) who is pro gay. Atheist fundamentalist…ha ha ha ha I’m a militant atheist–shout to my friend rob…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulAl4OjwvG4
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
The last time I mentioned the Eqyptians you got pretty hot and called me an antisemite and started going on about Josephus (who lived 2000 years after the presumed event).
But who knows, maybe you’ve mellowed in your old age.
And no, I don’t see a problem with some ritual either. If it were anyone other than Mr. Hitchens though, I doubt you would be cutting him an inch of slack.
And you’re compelled to pay taxes? Big deal. Haven’t heard of tax revolt, or leaving the country rather than support murder and genocide? For someone who rationalizes his own behaviour you might want to consider the ridiculous and unfair standard you want to hold others to.
getreal
@dsdrane: You are very right! Personally I believe in personal responsibility for ones actions and deeds and that people have a right to believe what they want.Anyone who is so insecure in their beliefs that they have to convert others,so insecure that they actually need the whole world to think just like them is probably not very secure in their beliefs or themselves.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
LOL! YOu’re a silly man. There’s no comparison between paying taxes through threat of force and imprisonment and choosing to be a christian. This is a nonsequitur.
But yes, to pursue this red herring you’ve introduced, citizens in representative governments ARE responsible for the actions of their government (through voting and supporting in taxes). This is yet another illogical aside from you, though.
dsdrane
@getreal:
Agreed. And this is why I haven’t and don’t usually participate. I come to Queerty now and again because, for the most part, it’s fun, it’s gay, and it can be silly (in a good way). The other reason I come is that one of the editors is Episcopalian and I know I’ll get the occasional Episcopal coverage from a gay point of view. Inevitably, the comments veer off into Gay Christians = Uncle Toms, and that’s where I draw the line. People are of course welcome to their opinions, and I have no problem whatsoever with atheism. None. The problem I have is when gross generalizations are perpetuated. So, I feel the need to throw my two cents in. I have no illusions about changing points of view, but I feel compelled to make sure the other side is represented.
It’s not my first time at the rodeo. I’ve survived worse than this on the NYC subway on any given day. 😉
TANK
@TANK:
Of course, there’s the child abuse angle that christians practice regularly–the threat of make believe hell that they enjoy frightening children with to compel belief in their superstitious nonsense.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
There is no such thing as debtors prison anymore, and no one’s going to beat you, you coward. They would just garnishee your wages from 7-11.
There are plenty of people who have left their home countries because they cannot support the crimes they commit.
You want to judge religious people who are working for peace, social justice and gay equality for the crimes of fundamentalists, and even for atrocities that happened hundreds and thousands of years ago?
That’s a bit more of a leap than the money you personally give right now to support the U.S. war machine, and to the owners of Red Stripe.
I’m just putting you on your own scales, dude.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Yeah, you tell that to your boy Kent Hovind who’s in jail for tax evasion…oy, you’re stupid.
But this isn’t judgment for crimes that have happened hundreds and thousands of years ago, strumpet–these are crimes that are happening right now…RIght now people are being massacred in the millions because they don’t believe in the right fairytale, okay stupid? I don’t know how many times you need to get hammered with this fact before you’ll just shut up and go away. You don’t have a point. You’re derail.
dsdrane
@strumpetwindsock:
Thanks for the link, Strump! I liked what Neil said earlier (before he threw his hands up) about taking the Bible too seriously to give it a literal reading. I think people also get hung up on the idea of “God” as some sort of thing or person…like a “purple marshmellow”, “skydaddy”, or “flying spaghetti monster”. I don’t profess to know what God is or isn’t; but, whatever it/she/he/none-of-the-above is, I’m interested in further discovery. I’m not in it for the destination; I’m in it for the journey. And I firmly believe there are other ways of taking this journey beside a “religious” one. It just happens to be the path I’m on right now.
TANK
Religious people working for peace and social justice and gay equality….hmm, what’s that number again? only 1% of churches in the u.s. tolerate gay congregants while still claiming it’s a sin? Is that it? Let’s just say that christians working for gay equality that aren’t gay themselves are a minority. How about social justice? Well, there are people who are christian who do work for social justice programs…it’s not because they’re christian–for presumably people could do this without christianity, and pick and choose what elements of their faith to act on, implying a higher standard than god and faith.
TANK
@dsdrane:
But what it is…you believe it exists…because you’re a bright person…LOL! “They just get hung up on god being a thing–you know…something that exists….well, god exists and I’m not hung up on god existing…he just exists!” You’re a retard.
dsdrane
@TANK:
“I don’t know how many times you need to get hammered with this fact before you’ll just shut up and go away. You don’t have a point.”
And when will you realize that no one is shutting up or going away? You’re not. I’m not. And, if we did, someone would pop up to take our place.
There’s also a difference between “not having a point” and “not seeing a point”. The fact that you don’t see it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
TANK
@dsdrane:
What point am I not seeing?
dsdrane
@TANK:
And you’re a grumpypuss, meanypants.
TANK
@dsdrane:
What point am i not seeing?
strumpetwindsock
@dsdrane:
Also, go back to the United Church of Canada link I posted earlier and look at their statement regarding the truth of the Bible.
Actually anyone who is too hung up on Biblical literalism should read the Everett Fox translation of the Pentateuch (The Shocken Bible) – or learn ancient Hebrew.
It’s quite the read, actually. I recommend it.
@TANK:
And TANK , that’s fraud, not refusal to pay taxes. I think you’re putting yourself in a bigger league than you deserve, my contradictory little friend.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Refusal to pay taxes for income earned is punishable by prosecution and jailtime as fraud.
TANK
But this is derailing. WHy do I need to talk about the horrible things that have been done in the name of a country, and the responsibility that the inhabitants of that country have in causing those horrible things to occur? I’m not making excuses for them…and I don’t need to argue that those things are wrong, and that we share responsibility for them in stating the plain truth that christians are responsible for the unethical things people carry out in its name. It’s just not addressing that by stating “you’re forgetting to critcize islam, or nazis or ,stalin!” I don’t need to criticize any of those things to criticize religion, and the danger it poses to society.
WHy do I need to leave the united states or stop paying taxes? Because I critcize religion? Is that it? This failure of logic is an attempt to derail. It’s based on this christian notion “you can’t criticize anyone else until you’re completely and totally sin free!” No. I can. I can say that murder is wrong even though I’ve jaywalked.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
First of all, I do not concede that it is a minority. There have been major issues of social reform in which religious people played a large role.
But even so – even if it is a minority – it is a GROWING contingent, and to you really want to work against that because of your anti-religious discrimination.
So they might do the same thing if they were non-religious. Big Deal? The point is that they are helping us, and they are our friends, and we should respect their right to have their own beliefs in return.
dsdrane
@TANK:
You refuse to acknowledge anything redeeming in anything that, in your view, is tainted by religion. Further, any gay person participating at any level in anything religious is a traitor.
Others, religious or not, while acknowledging all negative history of religion, have tried to offer a different view…none of which has any traction with you.
It would appear that we’re at an impasse, no?
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Actually it’s fraud if you make a false declaration.
If you refuse to pay they’ll just get a court order and try to garnishee… unless you stick to your principles and leave the country.
But maybe you like that starbucks coffee and MTV too much to take a moral stand.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
What antireligious discrimination? So now criticizing religion and naming the fact that it is responsible for people being harmed and killed all over this planet is anti religious discrimination? LMAO! I think this dovetails into your support for the law in canada which allows the religious to get away with the most vile hate speech imaginable because it’s “religious” (and that somehow makes it sacrosanct), while punishing criticism of religious bigotry and belief as hate speech. You’re an unreasonable crackpot who is illogical.
Second, I don’t deny that people who have been religious have been part of social reform movements. It’s not because of their religion, however. Take the abolition movement in england. You can justify slavery with the bible. That is a fact–the bible condones owning people. But, apparently if you pick and choose enough, you can justify not owning slaves with the bible, too. So why religious people were for the abolition of slaves in england had nothing to do with their religious faith–as they picked and chooses which parts of it to use in making their arguments…that implies, mister stupid, that there’s a higher power than religion and faith and god that people are appealing to in making ethical arguments.
I think that probably just went right over your head, as it has countless times before. You’re just not bright enough to get it.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
No, it’s something that can be prosecuted as a crime, and is, actually. People are prosecuted for tax evasion. Now why should I pack up and leave? Because I criticized religion? I can, in my country, still do that without fear of being deported or punished.
TANK
@dsdrane:
No, I don’t deny that people have profound religious “feelings”. I don’t deny that they’ve changed people’s lives. I don’t think it’s worth the cost in terms of human life and suffering, though. Religion kills. If a single person is murdered because of baseless superstition, all of the happy thoughts religion has ever inspired isn’t worth that cost.
dsdrane
@TANK:
“Mister Stupid”. You funny, Tank!
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
But you’re still paying for those bombs, guns and torture implements with your taxes, and using that oil that is mixed with blood, and eating food and drinking drinks that came from killing people and poisoning the environment.
And your excess has actually fucked things up in our country too. You personally owe me money.
You are just as guilty as the Skull and Bonesmen, the IMF, the CIA and the Bilderberg Group.
Sorry TANK. This isn’t my judgement. This is just me turning your own judgement back on you in the mirror.
TANK
You personally owe me money.
Have fun collecting, douche.
dsdrane
@TANK:
“No, I don’t deny that people have profound religious “feelings”. I don’t deny that they’ve changed people’s lives. I don’t think it’s worth the cost in terms of human life and suffering, though. Religion kills. If a single person is murdered because of baseless superstition, all of the happy thoughts religion has ever inspired isn’t worth that cost.”
Fair enough, that’s your viewpoint. I get it.
Unfortunately, this isn’t a theorectical conversation. The cost has already been paid. Is there a cause or a corner on this Earth that doesn’t share responibility for some atrocity? Religion is not the problem, in my view. Religion is merely a tool. People are the problem. People decide whether to wield it as a sword or a plowshare.
Bad people will do bad things with religion…or even without it. Good people can do good things, also with or without it.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Now this can be true that tax dollars do fund human rights violations. Yes, and I can be opposed to that and criticize it. But what does this have to do with the harm that religion causes? I don’t have criticize christianity everytime I criticize islam, and I don’t have to criticize the u.s. government when I criticize religion…you ass. It’s a nonseqitur.
TANK
@TANK:
The atrocities committed in, say, vietnam don’t make the atrocities committed in darfur any less evil.
TANK
@dsdrane:
Whether religion is a tool that causes harm or something else that causes harm, it causes harm. REligion does cause people to do bad things, though. It is directly responsible for compounding human suffering. The good things don’t require religion.
TANK
@dsdrane:
And also, bad people will do bad things without religion–but for bad reasons; and good people will do good things for good reasons. Only with religion do you have good people doing bad things for bad reasons.
Without religion, LESS harm would occur. A lot less.
strumpetwindsock
@dsdrane:
Well said.
I have tried that too. Unfortunately it doesn’t work. Really, I think my motivation is much like what you said in post #388.
I’m not a Christian (organized religion is too easily manipulated, and its differences too much of a distraction from what is really important, for my taste) but I do respect those who work within it.
Anyway, nice to meet you, and good to hear your reasonable voice in here. Try not to get too frustrated. Me, I just realize I am talking over their heads to people who are reading but not necessarily posting.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Oh my god, are you pulling that card out again? Actually whose card was it… that nobel prize winner.
Ask Adolph Eichmann, or any drone who works at an insurance company about “good” people committing evil acts that have nothing to do with religion.
dsdrane
I know some older friends and family who will never forgive the people of Germany or Japan for crime committed in the last century. They won’t travel there, and they won’t buy their goods. And, whereas I repsect their point of view, I’ve personally chosen to not blame the grandchildren for the crimes of the grandparents. This is something I struggled with when I lived in Germany for a year while in college, especially when an elderly person showed up on the bus or subway. “Where were they and what did they do” always popped up in my head.
Much evil has been done — and continues to be done — by religious bigots. But just like every German wasn’t necessarily a Nazi, not all religious people are necessarily bigots.
Have your point of view, fine. Be anti-religion, ok. Continue to talk about the harm done over the years, I’ll back you up. But, honestly, if you cannot differentiate between a church struggling to get over itself and reinvent with a church or group that continues to cause pain and suffering, then any conversation about it is fruitless.
The law differentiates based on “intent”. You might still land in jail, but your sentence will be less severe if intent wasn’t there. So, you’re free to pass judgment on me, but at the very least you should know that my intent is good.
dsdrane
@TANK:
“The good things don’t require religion.”
I totally agree. But I also feel good things don’t preclude it.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Are you pulling that card out again? Implicitly equating atheism with nazism? LOL! YOu’re stupid. I never denied that people do bad things without religion–but for bad reasons (nazism!). You’re a blowhole. It was nobel laureate steven weinberg–for physics–who said that.
Here’s richard dawkins interviewing him
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edsDrqfDVKY
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Doesn’t feel too good to be put on the defensive when you haven’t actually done anything, does it?
Now think about how a churchgoer who is committed to social justice and belongs to a peace-loving congregation must feel to have all their hard work and good will shat upon by a pompous ass like you.
TANK
@dsdrane:
The law exempts the religious from being punished for hate speech while punishing those who criticize religious hate speech. It is disgusting.
jason
In my opinion someone who demonizes all religious people for believing in their god is just as bad religious people who demonize all gays a bigot is a bigot. Tank hates religious people he is no different than a mormon who hates gays and equally as stupid. I’m an agnostic and am sick of queerty getting hijacked by Tanks religion bullshit.
strumpetwindsock
@dsdrane:
Actually I have spent a lot of time in Germany. There are a lot of fucked up people there still. But frankly most of them have a better understanding and work harder for change than people over here.
I have a German friend who was livid about how we throw away recyclables, waste energy and do not care about the war we create.
Part of it is because they have suffered war and famine and know what it really means. Walk through Berlin and there are still bullet holes everywhere.
TANK
demonizes? I don’t believe in demons. You’re close to that than I am.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
You haven’t put me on the defensive. You’ve introduced a nonsequitur that has nothing to do with the discussion, while completely misrepresenting what I’ve said.
dsdrane
@TANK:
“@dsdrane:
The law exempts the religious from being punished for hate speech while punishing those who criticize religious hate speech. It is disgusting.”
I agree.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
These are some pretty defensive comments:
“Now why should I pack up and leave? Because I criticized religion? I can, in my country, still do that without fear of being deported or punished.”
“Yes, and I can be opposed to that and criticize it. But what does this have to do with the harm that religion causes? I don’t have criticize christianity everytime I criticize islam, and I don’t have to criticize the u.s. government when I criticize religion…you ass. It’s a nonseqitur.”
Not that it is my preference to do it… I just want you to realize how you make others feel.
dsdrane
@strumpetwindsock:
Yeah, same in Munich. In fact, the “rolling hills” upon which the Olympic Village was built are actually mounds of debris. And, Dresden…oof!
It’s amazing how history lurches in fits and starts. I had the opportunity to spend two weeks in East Berlin in 1988, hosted by the Humboldt University. Leaving, I figured that the Wall might one day come down but that I probably wouldn’t live to see it happen. And, the next year it was down. Who knew?
It’s always unsettling to look at footage from WWII and think “this was only 65 some-odd years ago”.
Fortunately, change does happen. It doesn’t happen nearly fast enough, but it happens nonetheless. Our only job is to keep pushing…on all fronts.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Responsible? LOL! Everyone is actually guilty of murder, according to my arguments. Just like if they starved an ethiopian child to death themselves–or held an infant’s head under water in a bathtub until it died. I don’t think I’m making SOME of the religious feel anything more than uncomfortable, not responsible.
TANK
@TANK:
And annoyed that they have to THINK, because religion is largely an excuse to not think. That annoys people because it takes effort…and they usually invest it in justifying their faith…and poorly, as you are an example of.
Mark Cahill
@dsdrane: Why do you “gay-christians” (oxymoron) always have to play the “anti-religion” card? I think we can be objective and make a factual observation that it is the institution of religion that makes homosexuality wrong, evil and defective. Whether or not you are religious you cannot deny this fact.
I think that part of the conversation is important and helpful. Comparing beliefs or testing interpretations of the Bible are a waste of time. Defining what made homosexuals wrong though is very important if we ever want to change that.
I think we need to come up with a Plan to change people perception of gays and lesbians. In order to do that we are going to need to remove the stigma created by religion. If we don’t do that I can’t imagine how we think we’ll ever be accepted or “normalized” by the majority.
dsdrane
@Mark Cahill:
Mark, you should read the whole thread. If you did, you’d know I don’t deny the harm religion has done or continues to do.
You’d also know that I disagree, strongly, that comparing beliefs and interpretations is a waste of time. You may want to lump Southern Baptists and Episcopalians together, but I do not. The differences are real, if you take the time to look. The original story posted here by Queerty’s editors (one of whom is an Episcopalian, by the way, which is why news items like this get published here) is about the changes the Episcopal Church continues to undertake to right some of the wrongs of the past. Some only see it as pissing into the ocean; I see it as progress. ToMAYto, toMAHto.
I have my plan: to work within the Episcopal Church and outside of it for change. Your plan will probably look different. What matters is that we all have plans.
jason
So according to the fascist thought police if you don’t want to spend every hour of every day talking about religion there is something wrong with you? All this religion talk doesn’t make anyone uncomfortable it bores us to death. It is like having a born again christian at a party.
TANK
And yet you participate in an explicitly religious topic. Why is that? See, you don’t have to think about religion EVER–yet you choose to.
Apparently, it’s a threat to your…religion.
TANK
And who but a right wang idiot labels those who disagree with them “fascist thought police”? Douchebag.
schlukitz
@Mark Cahill:
I think we need to come up with a Plan to change people perception of gays and lesbians. In order to do that we are going to need to remove the stigma created by religion.
Toward that end, I think you will be happy with the news just released by the APA.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090805/ap_on_re_us/us_psychologists_gays
I am most anxious to see/hear the Pope’s reaction to this. Will he praise it…of poop on it?
I have my own private thoughts on that…but will hold my tongue until he makes a statement
jason
“I am most anxious to see/hear the Pope’s reaction to this” What a bunch of jesus freaks.
schlukitz
@jason:
You misread me, friend.
Had you been following these threads for any length of time, you would surely know that I am no Jesus freak and that I am, in fact, an atheist who is becoming quite fed-up with all the Christian interlopers who are showing up on a gay site to peddle their razz-ma-tazz like youcanthandlethetruth and DuttyBarb.
My comment was meant to convey the thought that Ratzazz will, more than likely, come forth with a condemnation of the APA as was the case with his stupid stance on stem-cell research, abortion and condoms.
dsdrane
@jason:
Charming, my dear boy, simply charming.
jason
@schlukitz: Bullshit no atheist would be eagerly awaiting the popes opinion. Nice try.
TANK
@jason:
Right, because the addressing religion in any way makes you religious–even to call it the harmful disgrace of reasoning it is. MONG LIKE CAYANDY! Idiot.
TANK
Rather, mongo like cayandy–isn’t that right, jason…you like candy, dontcha?
jason
@dsdrane: I’ve never heard of so-called atheists so obsessed with dogma.Yawn.
TANK
Well, I think if dogma–and specifically religious dogma– didn’t oppress lgbt people all over the united states and kill people globally in the millions…it wouldn’t matter. But ya know, it kinda does, mongo.
schlukitz
@jason:
I got the very distinct impression, from the moment that you that you came onto these threads, that you had a chip on your shoulder and that you were anxious to lay some of your seeming hostility on someone…anyone, in fact.
I responded to your comment in a courteous, respectful manner and thought that I had clarified my position, which you seem to have misread. I gave you no provocation, whatever, to get bitchy with me.
Given your snarky response and the fact that you have chosen to take-on several people on these threads, I can only conclude that you are coming from a similar space like youcanthandlethetruth is coming from and that is neither a good or positive thing.
If your only reason for coming to this site is to incite discourd and deliver vitriole, I would suggest you that you find another place in which to do it.
Queerty has already become inundated with with enough provacateurs and shit-stirrers, thank you very much. We don’t need another one.
dsdrane
@jason:
Are you high? Or are you simply 12? Or, come to think of it, perhaps both?
Regardless, you’re obviously not ready for prime time, and you’re certainly not ready for this thread.
That will be all. You may go now.
jason
@dsdrane: I have watched a few posters attack and insult several people on this site including yourself for days. I thought it would be humorous to have a little sport with them by feigning confusion at the dichotomy of people who say they don’t believe in religion but can think or talk of nothing else. Seemed pretty obvious to me.
dsdrane
@jason:
Ah, yes, I see. And so, when you say:
“feigning confusion at the dichotomy of people”
you would mean what exactly? Is English your first language, then?
Well, never mind that, the important thing is that you’ve contributed. Mind you, you’ve contributed rudely, and in a flat-footed manner at the end of the party, but I’m sure you did your best.
That’s all we can really ask for, isn’t it?
dsdrane
Put another way, Jason, this thread — one of Queerty’s longest, if I’m not mistaken — deals with some fairly important issues that engender strong reactions from a lot of well-meaning people.
Except for you, who admits to being here on a lark to mind-fuck, and a couple of Fundies. Nice company you keep.
If you feel like wandering into a days-old thread and acting like a turd in the punchbowl, perhaps you can limit yourself in the future to threads you actually have any interest in at all.
I assume you have interests?
jason
@dsdrane: Hey you are the dumbo being cornholed for believing in god I have been reading this thread for days and have seen you get insulted over and over. Look if you want to play the martyr go ahead that’s what christians do right.
dsdrane
@jason:
When was the last time you stayed with something that was uncomfortable, unpalatable, or unpleasant because you believed it was important to do so? What do you fight for? What is your role in the fight? Or are you so young that you don’t recognize that there is a fight?
Tank recognizes it. Schlukitz recognizes it. Strumpetwindsock recognizes it. And others who have contributed recognize it. We may not all agree. We may get heated. But, if we do, it’s because it’s important. Your blase attitude, at best, betrays a lack of understanding…at worst, it displays an extremely unattractive shallowness and meanspiritedness.
In my opinion, the work here is done. You’ve just shown up in time to clean up the debris.
By all means, have at it. The floor is your, Bucko.
schlukitz
@dsdrane:
Excellent posts you made.
As you said, we may not all agree…but I think one thing we can agree on, is that you are a class act!
Thank you for your comments. And thank you for being a gentleman.