“There is no need to analogize the battle for the rights of gay and lesbian people to the struggle of African Americans to overcome slavery, Jim Crow and continued discrimination. But as Coretta Scott King said to me as she tried to imagine what position the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. would take on âdonât ask, donât tellâ: âWhatâs the yardstick by which we should decide that gay rights are less important than other human rights we care about?â
The Commission on Civil Rights has been crippled since the Reagan years by the appointments of commissioners who see themselves as agents of the presidential administration rather than as independent watchdogs. The creation of a new, independent human and civil rights commission could help us determine our next steps in the pursuit of freedom and justice in our society. A number of explosive issues like immigration reform await such a commission, but recommendations for resolving the controversies over the rights of gays, lesbians and transgendered people should be its first order of business.” — Mary Frances Berry, former chairwoman of the Commission on Civil Rights calling on Barack Obama to “abolish the now moribund Commission on Civil Rights and replace it with a new commission that would address the rights of many groups, including gays.”
Eminent Victorian
I read this piece in the NY Times this morning, and the sentence that really stuck out to me as odd, given the rest (which I applaud), is the one you start off with here (“No need to analogize . . .”). Why isn’t there a need to analogize? I know lots of black people don’t like it, but I don’t like what I sometimes interpret as the whiff of “our troubles and struggles are/ were different/ more important than yours.” I also don’t fully understand the number of people in this country who believe that the phrase “civil rights” should be reserved only for black struggles. I’m not trying incite anything; I’m asking this stuff in earnest. I already know what one crazy black lesbian opportunist has to say about all this since she runs to every camera and NPR station in the country, but I’d appreciate a little actual insight.
chgo921
I’m amazed at the lack of responses to this post. If she had said something derogatory about gays, posters would be up in arms. When you have a prominent African-American citing other prominent African-Americans who oppose GLBT discrimination, there’s hardly a word from posters.
I hope everyone remembers this post, as well as the comments by Al Sharpton earlier this week, the next time an African-American doesn’t speak out (or vote) the way you’d like relative to gay rights. As African-Americans, we’re not monolithic in thought!
BrianZ
@Eminent Victorian: Perhaps if more people felt free to honestly ask their heart-felt questions without fear of reprisal, and were given honest, heart-felt answers free of condemnation in return we would see that for all the differences, we aren’t such strangers after all.
I hope you get some of the insights you seek.
Eminent Victorian
I do think I understand what she *means* by that sentence, though–that gay rights don’t need to be compared to any other groups’ struggles to be considered as significant.
RichardR
@Eminent Victorian: E.V., when I initially read your post, I thought you were referring to Ms. Berry as the “crazy black lesbian opportunist.” After reading the full op-ed and re-reading your post, I’m concluding — and really hoping — I was mistaken.
At gay rights rallies back in the 70’s and 80’s, we used to chant “Gay, Straight, Black, White/Same struggle, same fight.” It was a good chant, but as a summary of civil rights struggles, not so much.
The insight you admirably seek comes when one realizes that good as that chant was, it’s not that simple. Some black people don’t want us to “analogize” (great usage, Ms. Berry) the two civil rights struggles because indeed they are different. One is about eliminating civil differences based on race, the other is about civil differences based on sexuality. Whether one set of inequalities is greater, or worse, than the other isn’t the point. What they have in common is that both are unacceptable in America, and here is a sad reality — opponents of the one set of rights are all too often opponents of the other. It is they who are our enemy, not those who don’t like the chant.
that not-quite-yet-over-used concept, “nuance.” It (full civil rights)
RichardR
Sorry, failed to edit out “that . . . rights)
Mike K
I’ve always thought of my civil rights, (or lack thereof), as something I’m entitled to as an American, not because I’m gay. I see this struggle as one for civil right that are being denied to fellow Americans. To me this is “inclusion” not suffering through an invocation by some bigot in the name of inclusiveness. Until ALL Americans are truly free none are.
Eminent Victorian
@RichardR: No, I’m not referring to Ms. Berry as the black lesbian opportunist–I think Ms. Berry’s wonderful! I just don’t write the name of the woman I was referencing (she’s been discussed on this site before, and I don’t like giving her any press).
bearcub
Perhaps Ms. Berry would help the rights movement more if she addressed her “helpful” remarks to Rick Warren and Ebenezer Baptist Church and Oh yeah, Barak Obama.
For her information, the LGBT rights movement has already been de-coupled from the African-American civil rights movement thanks to the homophobia of the “civil rights” juggernaut. The black evangelicals (and white ones) want us to get off of the bus but they want us to go quietly (and don’t stop supporting Barak Obama and the Real Civil Rights Movement. I wish they had told us they didn’t want us BEFORE we spent so much time and money advancing their cause.
Yes, I think the LGBT movement should be de-coupled from the Black civil rights movement. From now on our support of their program should be based on their support for ours. The Obama administration should understand quid pro quo.
Ms. Berry’s comforting but insulting remarks are just another Obama talking point to shut the LGBT community up so they don’t spoil the “great” man’s fake equality agenda.
http://pumapac.org
bearcub
Perhaps Ms. Berry would help the rights movement more if she addressed her “helpful” remarks to Rick Warren and Ebenezer Baptist Church and Oh yeah, Barak Obama.
For her information, the LGBT rights movement has already been de-coupled from the African-American civil rights movement thanks to the homophobia of the “civil rights” juggernaut. The black evangelicals (and white ones) want us to get off of the bus but they want us to go quietly (and don’t stop supporting Barak Obama and the Real Civil Rights Movement. I wish they had told us they didn’t want us BEFORE we spent so much time and money advancing their cause.
Yes, I think the LGBT movement should be de-coupled from the Black civil rights movement. From now on our support of their program should be based on their support for ours. The Obama administration should understand quid pro quo.
Ms. Berry’s comforting but insulting remarks are just another Obama talking point to shut the LGBT community up so they don’t spoil the “great” man’s fake equality agenda.
bearcub
Perhaps Ms. Berry would help the rights movement more if she addressed her “helpful” remarks to Rick Warren and Ebenezer Baptist Church and Oh yeah, Barak Obama.
For her information, the LGBT rights movement has already been de-coupled from the African-American civil rights movement thanks to the homophobia of the “civil rights” juggernaut. The black evangelicals (and white ones) want us to get off of the bus but they want us to go quietly (and don’t stop supporting Barak Obama and the Real Civil Rights Movement). I wish they had told us they didn’t want us BEFORE we spent so much time and money advancing their cause.
Yes, I think the LGBT movement should be de-coupled from the Black civil rights movement. From now on our support of their program should be based on their support for ours. The Obama administration should understand quid pro quo.
Ms. Berry’s comforting but insulting remarks are just another Obama talking point to shut the LGBT community up so they don’t spoil the “great” man’s fake equality agenda.
http://pumapac.org
Anthony in Nashville
I think it’s interesting to observe that when a black person says something homophobic (i.e., that no-name rapper Trick Trick) it generates dozens of responses on gay sites, but when there is a supportive voice out there people don’t seem to be interested.
chgo921
@bearcub: Did you even read the entire op-ed, or just the paragraphs quoted above? Mary Frances Berry is clearly on the side of extending FULL equality to ALL. Regardless of how we get there, does it matter the road we take? I don’t always agree with MFB, or many of the so-called “leaders” in the African-American community, but when they are calling for full rights for me, that’s something I can support.
Also, as an African-American man who is gay, what’s this “told us” crap? There are some, indeed many, people in this world who fall into multiple categories; we’re more than one racial or sexual minority.
I’m too young to really remember all of the fights that happened for racial equality, but having grown up in the south, I have relatives — including my parents — who lived through Jim Crow laws. I grew up in the Baptist church. My elementary school had been the “colored” high school from which my father graduated. My African-American parents, who regularly attend the Baptist church where I was baptized also love me unconditionally and want what’s best for me, including being a happy, healthy, gay, African-American man.
Should I dishonor those who suffered in trying to gain racial equality because SOME MAY not believe the GLBT community should also have equal rights? Support for gay rights in the African-American community isn’t supported by all, nor is support opposed by all. Stop tarnishing an entire race based on the actions of some. ‘Cause if that’s the game you want to play, there are quite a few white people who can be called out.
It’s time to move forward and try to figure out the best way to garner GLBT equality — whether it’s a commission that includes GLBT people (as espoused by MFB) or some other way. If we only think about what we want and don’t try to consider (and combat) why it’s opposed by the majority population, we’ll never get the laws changed.
chgo921
@Anthony in Nashville: I agree. See my first comment on this issue (post No. 2).
bearcub
chgo921
I’m an African-American, too, and NOT too young to remember the real civil rights movement from the 1960’s and 1970’s and so I am not afraid to call out African-Americans for their failure to support the people who supported them.
Black people did not elect Obama. As 12% or so of the population we could not have elected him without the support of so many people who thought Obama would reach out to everyone. Many Blacks are so triumphalist at his victory and so convinced they are in the driver’s seat now that they can scoff at and reject others.
I have seen some of the Black evangelicals referring to Bible passages and calling gay people animals, literally animals. There is no excuse for the narrow minded, low brow approach. And it affects Black people to. The homophobia leads to the highest incidence of HIV/AIDs for both Black men and women in the U.S.
So it’s time for political maturity. Have those Blacks who want an equal agenda for gays to convert the haters not counsel gays to wait another generation for what should be ours.
petted
@Anthony in Nashville: One people respond to controversy. Two, as you haven’t noticed, there have been significantly fewer people posting then normal today. There are in point of fact a number of posts which virtually no one posts: on for example there are very few posts on the article about that kid being removed from his family (the neo-nazi family article), there are very few posts on the entry about the plain crash – does that mean people didn’t read them or consider the article -no, it may well mean that they choose to go elsewhere to find out more about the article or to engage in conversation with the broader community, where people might not support expanding upon the civil right commission.
I wouldn’t have posted at all because while I’m glad Mrs. Berry supports the LGBT community at the same time I see no reason to make a comment when there’s really nothing to add to the conversation here. I’m glad she’s promoting the revitalization of the civil rights commission, that said you don’t change minds by preaching to the choir.
bearcub
Just a general comment. Well meaning, Christian Blacks should work to end the vile name calling that is rampant in our community. Our race needs to stop addressing their women as B’s and H’s and themselves as N’s. It’s no wonder so many are not offended when gays are called animals. And the Baptists who are so uptight about gay morality need to lead a charge for decency and respect for their own women and get on the bandwagon for coming to grips with the AID/HIV disaster.
No more excuses. Self respect will be evident when this nonsense stops.
Charles J. Mueller
@bearcub:
I ver much enjoyed reading your thoughts, feeling and comments. Good posts. I as there with you in the 1960s and 1970s.
We’ve seen a lot of shit come down since then, haven’t we? đ
Charles J. Mueller
Sorry…my keyboard seems to be sticking. ver s/b very. feeling s/b feelings and as w/b was.
bearcub
Charles J. Meuller.
Yeah. Our generation was in the trenches, not this celebrity rights deal, the real deal. Lots of things have changed but a buncha things haven’t.
chgo921
@bearcub:
1. I completely agree that we shouldn’t have to, nor should we, wait another generation for equality. All I’m saying is that when we have people — regardless of race or religion — speaking out for us, why trash them as if they’re the opposition? I don’t take MFB’s op-ed as saying “wait your turn”, nor do I see how you apparently come to that conclusion if you read the entire thing.
But just because I want equality now doesn’t mean I do or don’t equate our struggles with the racial Civil Rights movement. I can see how others may not see it as the same thing. Doesn’t mean those who don’t are ALL opposed to GLBT equality, nor does it mean that those who are can’t be converted.
2. Just because you have seen “some Black evangelicals” say or do something repugnant, doesn’t mean they all fit that category. Why do you persist in denigrating an entire segment for the actions of some? That’s what’s most ridiculous about your arguments. You seem unable or unwilling to realize that intolerant people come in all shapes, sizes, colors and religions. Likewise, tolerant people also come in all shapes, sizes, colors and religions.
3. I agree with you regarding your general comment and the name calling. My question to you: what are YOU doing to stop it?
4. Why are all of your arguments couched in an HIV/AIDS scenario? Do you realize that it’s NOT a gay disease? Not all gay people are HIV+, nor are all HIV+ people gay.
Michael W.
@bearcub: A black PUMA? Lol, that’s a first.
You sound like the gay Larry Elder.
Delores Mouton
This is why white gays are so igninck. Y’all need o BOw DOwN to black womens. The same one yall laugh ats when embodiments as Shirley Cue Liquids when she scrud yall commode..
lol
fuck it
everybody hate a neeeeeegaaaaaa
Charles J. Mueller
@Delores Mouton:
Your post is about as racist as any I have ever seen. Just thought you’d like to know that it’s been flagged.
I am certain that you can find a white supremacist room somewhere on the Internet where your comments would be more than welcomed.
They are not welcomed here.
sparkle obama
hmmm
there is a whole lot of phony up in this comments page –
folks is unable to fold ones napkin…
this is going to be a very heavy week!
happy early dr. king day!
Mary Frances
Hey, I don’t care what the world thinks about gays, but god says it is bad and forbidden, so that is what it is.