Bravo Japh.

My hat is off to you on this one.

More list need to be made so we can all know who to boycott. How dare they try to make money off of us. Fools.

They are ones to talk about boycotting (SURPRISE SURPRISE!!!) the thumpers routinely boycott businesses like Ford, Mcdonalds, Disney, and any other company that supports LBGT rights. Like some one said before cry me a river.

Good boy Japh. If these people had of given to the kkk or a neo-nazi organization we would not be getting most of these comments. It just shows the depth of bigotry out there. As I have said before, if we don't do something this will keep going, haters don't stop, today its marriage tomorrow adoption, next they will take our natural born children away from us. Sounds extreme? Not really,we humans easily forget the past and go on to repeat it. I think a lot of these posts are attempts by bigots to confuse us and make us feel bad, as well as justify their own hatred and moving past their "political correctness". "See, I don't hate gay people. but look at what they are doing to us now". Its manipulative crap is what it is. Remember, blacks boycotted companies and organizations in the 60's, they were persecuted for it, let me hear from all you haters about how bad their actions were.

Thanks for posting this. I am still wary of everybody directing their anger towards LDS. I worry about the way it is being spun by the opposition, and the anger towards organized religion it seems to be spurring among our community.

However, this post has helped to explain some of the logic behind that effort. I hope we can open some dialogue with LDS and other less tolerant groups in the future and direct our energies towards more healing rather than fostering a potentially dangerous and angry feud.

And I really hope Saturday is the multi-ethnic/racial/age/everything demonstration of unity that it should be, for our own sake.

Excellent. Thanks

Thank you. I thought I was the only one saying it: what about those faiths that bless same-sex unions? I am a Christian who has made an effort to read beyond what appears on the surface (after an extremely superficial reading) to be a condemnation of gay men. I won't get into it, but it irks me that I, together with many GLBT and heterosexual Christians, are persecuted because we dare to draw the conclusion, based on rational, critical thinking, that the God we worship abhors the bigotry the Religious Right preaches.

Japhy my boy, you are going to work splendidly.

Excellent, Japhy.

I'd refine a couple of points:

1)Mr. Dreher, if you folks in favor of prop. 8 want to boycott those who opposed it, go ahead! It's a free country. Oh, but except for …

2) And Mr.Dreher, we're focussing on LDS because it/they were HUGE, monolithic and very public in their influence on the voting. Your other scapegoatees (blacks, Latinos, and even the actual ones, the elderly) didn't act as a group, but as individuals. Not so easy to picket, ya know?

Now then, I'd love it if there were some serious screaming being done at Focus on the Family and the Catholic Bishops, was it? That'd really get the "gays are anti-religious" juices flowing.

I have also heard from some gay people that this would also hurt
other gay people who work for these places. Yes, it very well could. Nothing is perfect and there are prices to pay. But remember their are those who have given their lives for standing up for what is good and what is right, just as the Kennedy's, Dr. King, Gandhi and the big guy Jesus the prices people have paid. Loss of a job and income, while difficult, is nothing compared to the prices others have paid. There is a saying, "sometimes one must be willing to die in order to live". This does not necessarily mean physical death but it refers to sacrifices of all sorts. But we can be there to help those of us who do suffer for the cause,
just as people came through for Mark Oshiro to help with bail money. We must keep the faith and not allow those who wish to tear us apart to succeed.

Nicely done. I'm going local and asking the businesses I frequent where they stand, even though I'm not in California. You want my business and my hard-earned cash - you better not be trying to hold me down.

Love the religion, hate the religious.

This does raise an interesting issue, though. Geo- and demographically speaking, it has been noted that a lot of minority (for sake of argument: black, latino, asian) groups voted for Prop 8, and some of those minority groups live in what most of us can agree to be less safe neighborhoods than those where Mormon temples reside. Even in San Francisco, where the Bayview and Hunter's Point districts voted for Prop 8. Why not take a protest out there? Could it be because you could easily get shot?

I understand that the Mormon involvement is much more deeply-rooted, so I'm not disagreeing with this course of action. Just something I thought about, though. Are we so eager to stand up physically against Mormons because in essence, we don't expect them to fight back physically?

Really well done!

@Austin:

Just something I thought about, though. Are we so eager to stand up physically against Mormons because in essence, we don't expect them to fight back physically?

Exactly, Austin. And unfortunately this makes us look weak and hypocritical. I think a march through a racial minority neighborhood, or church would do more than marching on an LDS church.

Easily among the top 5 of best Queerty posts ever.

Paul, I would agree if it were possible to determin that a particular church was organized in supporting Prop 8, or that an entire neighborhood had turned out in favor of it.

But to just pick a black neighborhood and assume that everyone there MUST have supported Prop 8 is simple prejudice, I would think.

The LDS church made itself a target a gay ire by openly working against the rights of gay citizens. If, say, the NAACP had done the same thing, I do believe there would be protests.

One more thought: I think our energy would be better spent reaching out to educate minority communities rather than picketing them.

@Austin: "I understand that the Mormon involvement is much more deeply-rooted, so I'm not disagreeing with this course of action. "

Do you really not understand the difference between voting and funding?

Black people are free to vote however they want. It's their right that they fought for. But they aren't the ones who gave $20 million out of the $36 million the Pro-8 campaign had at their disposal. That was the Mormons.

Do you understand now?

I don't believe it's ever been a requirement that you must tolerate those who seek to destroy you.

@Austin:
I'm black and a lesbian and I agree that we should march in black neighborhoods. I also think that some kind of outreach should've been made to these neighborhoods prior to the election. We can't just simply assume one minority will vote for another minority's cause.

I saw some ignoramous saying it's time to bankrupt gay businesses. I pointed out to him that someone who has never been a patron of any gay business would have NO EFFECT.
Whereas gays/lesbians shop at tons of straight businesses, and if we select a few of them to punish and a few to reward we have CLOUT.
The nastiness the YES on Prop 8 supporters accuse us of, pales in comparrison to BLACKMAIL letters sent to No voters demanding $10,000.00, and those four letter senders face FELONY charges of 4 year prison sentences for EACH letter, and thousands in fines. One sender was an LDS lawyer.
These buffoons will serve every day of the sentences and every dime of their FINES.

some of the alleged attacks by gays/lesbians SMACK of self inflicted VICTIMHOOD which parralels scratching a backwards B on their cheecks. The burnt Book of Mormon is such a stunt,
How likely would No prop 8 voters have a Book of Mormon to set a fire, which did absolutely no damage to the building, and a gray car they didn't see a license plate drove away…OH PLEEEZE!

Unless I'm mistaken, the effort to protest isn't targeting those who VOTED for prop 8, but those who funded the hate-filled campaign to get it passed. We're following the money trail, not the voters, and demanding that gay dollars no longer be used to fund discrimination against us.

btw…MORMONS are HUGE VICTIM DIVAS, they have done the SAME act for 150 years…boo f*CKIN hoo you OWN your own state and monopolise two more and get international funds from Mormons globally..how G*D DAMN tragic for ya.

LDS maybe it's time to update you ACT…just saying

What's more, I find it a little annoying that people keep making these insinuations that somehow it's more dangerous to face off against the "big, scary Latinos + blacks" as if they will necessarily be more violent than the white Mormon population. That's a load of crap, quite frankly.

btw. Sundance Film Festival is requesting UTAH state funds….I think all the letters to Sundance SPONSORS who are very progressive companies, who AIN'T gonna get a COORS beer boycott on their product lasting decades.

My great-grandmother used to say, "Watch out for people who are condemning you because the chances are that they are doing it too."

These people are so busy using their Bibles as weapons, they forget to look inside it.

christers and islamists have always had a martyr complex. It's one of the symptoms of their self-imposed irrational lifestyles.

The problem is that today’s milquetoast christers don't embrace it. Here’s how the boy raping catholic cult describes the impulse to martyrdom: "a martyr, or witness of Christ, is a person who, though he has never seen nor heard the Divine Founder of the Church, is yet so firmly convinced of the truths of the Christian religion, that he gladly suffers death."

I blame it all on Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus. I know that 24/7/365 debauchery can be costly, but after all he was emperor of the known world and etc. How much trouble would it have been to set aside enough sesterces to import a few more lions and tigers? It would’ve spared us the necessity of putting up with the wimpy kind of jezuz jumpers who infest our culture.

And wouldn't that be nice.

I agree that protests and boycotts in and of themselves are not intolerant, but the attitudes being advocated by most of the people participating in these events is explicitly intolerant, as is the proclivity of this blog and its posters to couch the situation in hate speech. Why is voting according to your beliefs "hate," while an aggressive assault on that belief is "not intolerant"? This is a blatant double standard.

Let's be honest and define some terms before we start advocating false presuppositions. Did Prop. 8 take away rights? No, it took away one single right, and an exclusively semantic one at that.

Where did that right come from? It was extrapolated from a specific reading of the Constitution by four California Supreme Court judges.

Who do they answer to? The Constitution, which is answers to the people. The people have disagreed with those four judges regarding the fundamental right to have a gay relationship recognized by the state as indistinguishable from a heterosexual relationship. It's as simple as that.

While hate is no doubt a factor some people's opposition to gay marriage, that opposition does not unilaterally equal hate, and it's quite hypocritical to argue that it does and at the same time argue that people who say "love the religion, hate the religious" are not intolerant. I'm more than willing to enter into a discussion with anyone about gay marriage, and unfortunately it does often retrogress into an angry rant, but almost exclusively on the part of the gay community. See my attempts to enter into intelligent and respectful discourse here:

http://www.haloscan.com/commen.....sn#1118806

Here are some of the many responses to my attempt at civility:

"No, Dan, I won't give you any respect whatsoever. There is no discussion to be had. I don't care about your journey through the land of Self-Loathing, nor your flip-flopping homophobia.

You are a dildo with legs for the LDS. Fuck off."

"And as a fellow (used to be) Mormon I would ask that you kindly fuck off. You and the church positively nauseate me. You are a bigot, plain and simple.

Again….FUCK YOU and your church.
Can I make it any clearer?"

"Surely there are some truckstop washrooms for you to hang around if you're so eager to be in the company of cocksuckers."

"Why don't you just get the fuck outta here?"

"Dan, you and your magic underwear and wood submarines can fuck off…"

"Daniel has entered the lion's den so he can return to Mormonland and get some brownie shirt points for ethnographic evangelism, trying to convert heathen savages by being near them in their own sin-squalid territory — just like the overseas Mormons do in developing countries where they prey like vampire bats on the weakest of humanity simply for their own self-aggrandization with their Grand Poobah Fetish Underwear Latter Day Saint Cult Leaders.

You ventured into the third world of gay. Go back to Mormonville now, Dan. You got away lucky. No one bit you — just a lot of hissing and spitting. Go now and make lugubrious white worm love to your many underaged girl-wives (aka your cousins). Buh-bye, now, Dan. Don't forget not to write.

Your mission is over."

"Dan, you are a big, fat liar…"

"Don't tell anyone….But Dan is a power bottom and pain pig. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but his wife would NEVER understand.

Dan again I implore you politely….FUCK OFF!"

"Dan…you sir are a brainwashed member of a cult. I therefore know that engaging you in anything is a waste of time and effort.

So once again I will say…FUCK YOU, JOSEPH,BRIGHAM, and all the multitudes of bastard children they brought forth."

Is this what so much tolerance and righteous indignation spawns? One person on that entire blog (which, by the way, is apparently the best LGBT blog in the world) refrained from verbally assaulting me for attempting to engage in respectful and adult dialogue. Flat refusing to condemn that kind of attitude is tacit approval of those tactics. Do you support them, or are you truly tolerant?

I think all of this stems from the general public finally being able to access the donation records via the web. Now I can easily look up who voted in favor of 8 and choose to not do business with them. Up until now most of these donations were difficult to track for the regular folks.

Transparency does work!

Way to go! Points well made!

Look, the Mormons organized and donated a MAJORITY of the money to pass Prop 8 … so the majority of the attention and pickets are directed at them.

It's pretty much going unsaid, but perhaps we all agree in our hearts that picketing blacks, latinos, black churches or even old folks is (a) not really possible, (b) counterproductive. And that education and outreach is more of long-term goal in those areas.

Back to the Mormons: Maybe the gays around the country, like me, were shocked to learn that the Mormons reached out of Utah into California. I knew the Catholics disliked us. And I know the gays have picketed them for years. But this whole Mormon thing came out of nowhere and was a surprise … at least to me.

And kind of like when you get gang-attacked in the school yard, it's very jarring and makes you want to fight back — in non-violent ways like picketing.

LDS can be as thuggish as the CIA, Labor bosses, and drug cartels…one of the BIG NAACP law suits which made Mormons MAGICLY accept Blacks as full members in the priesthood.
It involved an elder who got excommunicated for ordaining a Black man, LDS had goons following this rogue elder, and somehow they murdered the rogue elder's body guard.

these guys can fight dirty, but not as dirty as we can, they can't invisibly be any color, ethnicity, age, gender….like queers can.

@Tim in SF:

Did you understand what I wrote? I know why we are protesting against Mormons, and I do know the difference between funding and voting (as well as discourse and condescension).

What I'm wondering isn't the depth of "wrongness" that each group has committed, but rather our approach to addressing the very nature of what is wrong: the elimination of equal rights. I am fully in support of protesting the Mormon church, as well as the Catholic church, who also played a role, as well as many Protestant churches, who I suspect participated as well. But something that has been identified as a weak link in the anti-Prop 8 campaign has been its target audience. We failed to included the aforementioned minority groups, groups that are a large part of the gay community in the first place. And yet here we are again, focusing our anger (and rightly so, to some degree) and protesting against what is a largely white community.

This isn't about the difference between voting and funding. This is about how we might want to consider acting differently in the aftermath of what is obviously a less than successful campaign to fight Prop. 8.

@fredo777: Have you ever seen a cornered LDS member? They're like a badger mixed with really angry swarm of wasps. Man, they'll go nuts on you! LOL.

In fact, I agree with you. We're falling into stereotypes if we're "afraid" to reach out to people of color. Especially when the GLBT population of color needs our support so much.

I have a couple of things to say… first of, Christian Right Wings have been boycotting sponsors for shows with gay story lines, or companies that support gay/lesbian rights for years (sometimes it works sometimes not).

However, I believe that unless a specific company/organization sponsored/donated to yes on prop 8 then boycotting them is not right.

The fact that an employee made a donation doesn't make the company at fault. I am sure there are plenty of Starbucks employees across the nation that gave money to yes on 8, should we all stop having Starbucks coffee?

In addition, I applaud those who put their money where their mouth is (even if I completely disagree with what they believe in). Many gay/lesbian/trans etc. people didn't do a damn thing to promote the cause (let me repeat that they didn't do a thing to promote the cause). Yet they are yelling and screaming and boycotting. Its a little late now.

Now if a company/corporation is continually advancing a hateful agenda (toward any minority) then I'll be the first person to spend my dollars somewhere else.

Again, just because an employee chose to give to yes on 8 doesn't mean the company should be punished… it was a personal choice by an individual.

Just my .02

A note to racists.

Other minorities, women, the civilian and GI antiwar movements, students and unions are far and way the best and most reliable allies of the GLBT communities.

We know that for a fact so give it a rest. No one falls for your divide and rule crap. As Ben Franklin said

"if we don't hang together, we shall hang separately."

@Dan:

The constitution does not answer to the people + we are not living in a pure democracy. That said, those judges' job is to make sure that we don't have tyranny of the majority versus the minority (LGBT folks).

The passing of Prop 8 did take away a right that was already granted. And it isn't a "semantic" issue, at all. These relationships are marriages, in name + in legal benefits.

It's as simple as that.

Japhy.. cause no-one else has said it….

work bitch!!!

Keep up the good work

"if we don't hang together, we shall hang separately."

is a message that the racists who post at queerty ought to keep in mind. Unions, other minorities, women, immigrant workers and the GI and civilian antiwar movements are our best and most natural allies. Nothing can change that.

Comments that exploit the divide and rule tactics of the bigots are themselves the comments of bigots.

@fredo777:

The civil unions/civil partnerships which Obama and the bigots in the Democratic (sic) Party endorses are designed to keep us as second class citizens. They favor that measure so they can continue to pander to christer bigots. y

When everyone has the same rights then it'll become a semantic question. For now it's a question of fighting bigotry.

No. 36 · Bill Perdue said
A note to racists.

Other minorities, women, the civilian and GI antiwar movements, students and unions are far and way the best and most reliable allies of the GLBT communities.
____________________________________________

That is interesting, because the women's movement specifically pushed out the lesbians because they thought that feminists were already thought of as "Wanting to be men" and that advocating with lesbians would be bad for the movement. The Anti-war movement has never once gone after Don't Ask Don't Tell, and as for minorities, the majority in CA. voted AGAINST us…so if THEY are all our best friends, then I would say…with friends like them, who needs enemies?

way to kick ass with words. now, if only logic worked on bigots.

Injustice reminds us of the words of Victor Hugo:

"There is nothing more powerful than an idea whose time has come."

Equal rights for ALL citizens of the U.S.–a nation founded on the principle of separation of church and state. This ideal is being focussed now in California–but will resonate throughout the nation.

The time has arrived and justice WILL prevail.

@Cam:

Cam, I have a question.

Are your lies and cynicism about movement building and alliance building just a way so saying you don’t want to be an activist. Remember, no one is pushing you. I’d say the movement could do very well if you stayed as far away from us as possible.

There has always been lesbian baiting by rightwing Democrats in the women's movement. What's you point? And don't stupidly confuse a movement with its organizations. Next thing you know you’ll be telling us that the Barney Frank stoneheads are part of the movement.

The statement that the 'minorities' voted against us is so out of touch with reality that it’s as simple minded and racist. What did you expect? The Democrats who ran No on 8 simply abandoned the filed to bigots because they couldn't handle the question of Obama's bigoted opposition to same sex marriage. Instead of denouncing his ‘god’s in the mix bigotry’ they insert their thumbs, twirled and keep their mouths shut.

The GI and civilian anti-war movement opposes bigotry by the war department as much as they oppose the mass murder of Iraqis and the idea of GLBT youth becoming and others being cannon fodder for Obama's wars.

Your cynicism is just an excuse for your contempt for our struggles and those of our allies.

As someone who will be peacefully protesting in Chicago this weekend (and as an attorney who is keenly aware that the WAY in which you present yourself can make all the difference in the world), let me kindly suggest to all Prop 8 protestors this weekend that you be respectful and thoughtful.

That doesn't mean you can't be angry, but remember your image might be beamed into the living room of someone who doesn't know a gay person. Let's remind them that for every one angry protestor who defaces a Mormon Church, there's tens of thousands who just peacefully want to demonstrate for our rights.

@Dan:

Dan, if you woke up one day and were no longer married thanks to the orders of funding by a church that doesn't "approve" of you, what exactly do you think your reaction would be to members of that church who are defending its actions? I don't get why all of a sudden we're supposed to play nice…if Prop 8 had failed, you would have lost nothing. Because of the LDS, it succeeded, and gay folks in California lost a basic civil right. So no, I'm not going to be civil or tolerant. Anyone who defends the actions of the LDS can suck it as far as I'm concerned. Come crying to me when you lose a basic civil right by the tyranny of the majority.

@Bill Perdue:

Give it a rest, dude.

@Justin Allen:

you guys sound re-tahded.
ain't nothing wrong w/protesting
but get a clue!
quit bothering individuals and take it to the fucking supreme court.
i'm not too sure about the new generation of gays that "doesn't read".
get smart, ladies!

@Austin:
Are we so eager to stand up physically against Mormons because in essence, we don't expect them to fight back physically?<<

thank you.
no more attacks against individuals, please.
undisciplined, entitled b*tches need to sit down with this mess.
making old ladies cry and taping it on their camera phones!
fight the real enemy, assholes!
take it back to the supreme court.

I was so glad to read someone bring up the "Why do your religious beliefs trump my religious beliefs?" point. I attend a traditional protestant church (nearly 400…yes…400 years of one continuous congregation) that blesses same sex unions and would be first in line for performing them with legal sanctification. My God tells me that love is holy in all it's forms. My God tells me that to celebrate and uphold that love is blessed. My God tells me that I am His creation-just as I am. My God tells me that I am worthy of His incredible Grace and Never-ending, Unconditional Love.

Can ANYONE tell me why their God is better than my God and, therefore, the laws of this great country should follow the teachings of their God over all other teachings??

@fredo777:

I know we don't live in a pure democracy. Everyone learned in high school that Madison loathed democracies. The California state constitution does indeed, however, answer to the people insofar as the people don't infringe upon the statutes found therein. That's why the people can amend the constitution. Ultimately, the constitution must be the supreme authority, but it derives its authority and its very existence from the people. If they are powerless to influence it, America will have failed. And this is in no way the tyranny of the majority. The gay community is requesting a radically altered definition of marriage be legally recognized by the state.

Secondly, the right that was revoked is not explicit in the CA constitution, and the court that decided it was implicit was as split as a supreme court can be. That's not a solid foundation for the fundamental right of gays to the designation "marriage." You'll be hard pressed to find many people who agree that the constitution should have these kinds of details hammered out at the sole discretion of four individuals. In addition, there was no difference in legal benefits. From the California Family Code section 297.5:

"Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights, protections, and benefits, and shall be subject to the same responsibilities, obligations, and duties under law, whether they derive from statutes, administrative regulations, court rules, government policies, common law, or any other provisions or sources of law, as are granted to and imposed upon spouses."

That's pretty clear.

And since when are boycotts "intollerant"? How much longer should Rosa Parks have been "tolerant"

Yes, the Christian right has LONG boycotted and NEVER were they considered intolerant (I am sure that a perusal of Focus on the Family's site would yield some instructions about who is to be targeted these days).

And we aren't taking away your right to live or work. If you are SO secure in your beliefs then our little gay minority won't be able to put a dent in your business because you have SO many allies, right?

Could it be you fear retaliation because, in your heart of hearts, you know you are wrong?

@fredo777: Dude, not a chance. I am not, after all, the one chewing puppy uppers so they can spew obamadolatry 24/7.

@Paul: I wear straight drag for funerals, marriages and would in court too.

But in general the question of how much of our anger and disruptiveness we display is a very minor tactical question. If the airhead cowardly Democrats who ran No on 8 and the efforts in Arizona and Florida had the guts to expose and denounce Obama’s bigotry and if they'd had led a campaign of angry, disruptive demonstrations that threatened much more of the same we would wouldn’t be in this mess.

Today’s movement will have to be built nationally, with a democratic internal life and around a program of cutting edge demands. I think the net will prove one of our most valuable tools to coalesce a GLBT left.

Just as important is the program we fight for and the alliances we build.

1. We need inclusive laws to make it easy to sue and win claims against employers, service providers and landlords who discriminate.

2. We need tough laws that harshly punish hate crimes and hate speech.

3. We need equal rights and privileges for our partnering.

4. With the recession threatening to become a depression we need a crash program to fund housing, medical and counseling services and job training/educational assistance for the tens of thousands of LGBT children and teens who are throw away by their patents.

5. We need funding for HIV/AIDS services and research on an unrestricted 'as necessary' basis, overseen by activists from the GLBT communities, GLBT doctors and nurses and the AFL-CIO's medical service unions

@ChristopherM:

Perhaps you're unaware, but our church has been through that process already. Polygamy was upheld as illegal by the US Supreme Court in Reynolds V. Supreme Court in 1881 because it was "odious," and better suited to "Asiatic and African countries." What did our church do? It submitted to the rule of law. As far as my own marriage being suddenly made null and void: I didn't get married with the clear understanding that the opinions of four judges was all that was holding the legality of my marriage together. Nor was I keenly aware that a vote would shortly take place that would decide whether my marriage would remain legal. Now, if those conditions had described my marriage, I would be upset, but I wouldn't attempt to undermine the principles of our constitution and rely on the sympathies of activist judges to enforce a paradigm that was established as clearly against the will of the people. I also wouldn't attempt to pin the entirety of the blame on one religious group, just because they happen to make a convenient target and just because I knew there would be no real social or legal consequences, as would be the case if I went after the more established groups that played a much larger role in getting the proposition passed.

Everyone keeps saying we bankrolled it, but everyone seems to ignore the fact that the opposition to Prop. 8 raised far more money and had the support of just about every celebrity alive, almost every newspaper in the country, and California's teachers union. Prop. 8 passed because your constituents weren't able to convince the people they weren't going to see negative consequences to gay marriage, not because Latter-day Saints donated money.

@Cam: You're right - the women's movement DID specifically push out Lesbians - *40 YEARS AGO*! And individual members of racial minority groups did vote against Prop 8 at a higher percentage than caucasian individuals. That, however was due to the lack of outreach to individuals in minority communities. No amount of outreach would have made a difference to the LDS leadership in Salt Lake - they launched a coordinated campaign to fund this proposition. "Minorities" did not. And not, the LDS church is talking to the media and asking why we're not protesting black and latino churches - that's what they want us to do, to take the pressure off them. Because they funded Prop 8!

Dan,

I would like you to do a little research project:

Read/view the 15 most-run ads from both sides of this issue and then fact check each ad.

I think you'll find that what your church actually bankrolled was a very clear attempt to use misinformation and fear to sway the hearts and minds of God's people.

When you are more informed about the way this issue was presented, I'd like to hear what you have to say.

@PJR: I agree with much of what you said but the highest numbers of any cohort voting yes on 8 was Euroamerican Republicans at 82%. I haven't researched what went on in Florida or Arizona but if anyone has please post it.

This whole brouhaha about the African American vote is, as far as I know, based on one flawed CNN exit poll done in one (unknow) county instead of being state wide.

If you know more let us all know. Facts, citations, whatever you've got.

@Dan:

Will of the people? You must be kidding me with this Dan! It was the will of the people that women were chattel. It was the will of the people that Native Americans get kicked off their land. It was the will of the people that races not intermingle. The people do not get to decide the basic rights of the minority in this country, Dan. You are in desperate need of a constitutional history class.

Yes, it is true that our side raised a bit more money. Apparently is costs less to stir up bigotry via robo-calls lying about Obama's support of the amendment, and of scaring bigots into thinking we are after their children. The fact is, Dan, that your church produced most of the money that promoted this hateful amendment. But for your church, this amendment would not have had a chance. $20 million+ How can you even justify that kind of money when there is the hunger and suffering in the world that Christ talked about eradicating? It is repugnant.

@gayvirgo: The efforts of the irrational cults, including the mormons, don't amount to a hill beans besides the freight train that smashed into our chances of winning. That was the Obama Special and it derailed us with "god's in the mix."

I believe PJR was highlighting the differences between the black community and the LDS church- reiterating that pointing the finger at black churches is basically a smoke screen.

@Dan:

Also Dan, I don't believe for a second you would be merely "upset" if your marriage were ruled invalid by a simple majority vote. You would take to the streets in outrage, and frankly, you would be entirely justified in doing so.

@Dan:

Dan, the opinion of an ex-gay on gay marriage doesn't really matter.

@ChristopherM:

"Apparently is costs less to stir up bigotry via robo-calls lying about Obama's support of the amendment…

Bullshit. Obama had a minor tactical opposition to Prop 8 and only then because it's a constitutional amendment. In all other respects his prejudiced opposition to same sex partnering rights is the same as that of most 'leaders' of the twin parties of bigotry, war and economic failure.

And no less disgusting.

BTW, Christopher did you notice the 'progressive' flag pin that your 'antiwar' President-designate is sporting these days? Do you think warcriminal and superbigot Colin Powell will get NSA, State or the war department? And where does Nunn fit in now that High Colonic Powell’s on boards.

Mormons took it upon themselves to sponsor a ballot initiative that allows perfectly legal and valid marriages to be subjected to a popular vote. As a result millions of Californians, the vast majority of them not Mormons, are denied the right to marry the person they love. And the valid marriages of 18,000 couples face nullification. Mormons went to the polls and in the privacy of the voting booth checked the box to strike down thousands of existing marriages. And they somehow now feel that they are victims?? I'm not buying it. Not for one second.

Instead of trying to portray themselves as the victims of bigotry, let them ponder how much attention they have drawn to their church's history of polygamy. Let them consider the hypocrisy of Mormons trying to portray themselves as the champions of traditional marriage. Let them consider how they can continue to portray themselves as a persecuted minority when they have become the persecutors. Let them ponder the impact on traditional marriage of their ballot initiative that has subjected perfectly legal marriages to the vote of total strangers. Let them consider how much they would appreciate being forced to abide by the tenants and beliefs of another religion. Mormons are the victims here? Hogwash!

Japh,

Ya tricky little bastard. All your readers patting you on the back must be blind to the deception in your article.

"First off, gay marriage doesn't infringe on your 'freedom of religion' at all."

No, the right to same-sex marriage in and of itself has nothing to do with education, speech or religion, but it doesn't take a lot of imagination to see where this slippery slope leads. We all know that your long term agenda is to silence all dissent. We have to fight you at every turn, because we know WE WILL LOSE OUR CONSTITUTIONAL FREEDOMS if we let you have your way, and for what? So you guys don't have to wrestle with your demons? No.

"If you didn't know, gay people get beaten and murdered at an alarming rate in this country simply because of who they are. Gays and lesbians can still lose their jobs simply for being gay in many states."

OK. "Any" is an alarming rate, but Matthew Sheppard was like 15 bazillion years ago, and the only subsequent gay-murder I know of is Lawrence King. I wouldn't say it's an epidemic. The employment laws are being fixed. Things are getting better for you guys all the time. My point: you won't be able to use this as an excuse much longer - you can barely use it now.

I see right through you, pal. I don't expect the lemmings congratulating you on your "work" to see it or even care, but there are a lot of us who will not allow you to steal OUR freedoms in the name of "equality.

Sadly, Dallas is full of homophobic journalist like this. This bearded dude is the head honcho at the Dallas Morning News. You would not believe the shit these gay bashing douchebags get away with here.
I host a show on Rational Radio and the Dallas paper will not even list us as a station.
Dallas is really the ass crack of the bible belt.

BTW, great arguments all, Dan.

@rjb: I agree but I still think the basis for all this bull saying we were "betrayed" is based on non-facts expolited by skinhead race baiters.

It's all very much like the Hitlerite theory that Jews "stabbed Germany in the back". It's manufactured and dangerous.

And yes, it can happen here. And has.

@Dan: Dan, two things. Thanks for trying to be civil, it is very difficult with such a personal and volatile issue. Second, I personally do not view it as just a semantic issue. They took the word "marriage" away from us, but that little word "marriage" means a heck of a lot more in the majority of our states. Like hospital visitation rights. Like adoption rights, if you're living in the state of Arkansas. Health insurance. Benefits. True, we still have our civil unions and with those civil unions, we have one some of those benefits…but what benefits we receive vary from state to state. Some states don't even allow civil unions; in fact, I can think of 18 states that do not recognize any sort of gay union legally (i.e. no benefits for being in an equivalent monogamous relationship of two heterosexuals)

So when you can look me in the eye and say this is just a "semantic" issue, I would like to see proof of my civil union or marriage benefits in your hand.

@Thumper: If you haven't heard of any "gay-murder" between Matthew Sheppard and Lawrence King, perhaps you should've started trolling gay blogs LONG before now. That way you'd be more well versed, and more up-to-date, on a subject of which you assume to know so much.

As for the line "…but there are a lot of us who will not allow you to steal OUR fredoms in the name of 'equality,'" who exactly determined that whatever group you align yourself with is any better than any OTHER group in this country, you pompous ass?

@Bill Perdue:

He said he wouldn't vote for the amendment. The Yes on 8 ran robocalls saying he supported the amendment. You can call that bullshit all you want, then go back to being one of six voters for some wackjob fringe candidate.

And the last time I checked, warmongers don't have a monopoly on the flag. Progressives can be just as patriotic. The fact that the flag seems to stir up such vitriol in you says more about you than it does me or Obama.

@Jim: OURS means all of ours, jackass, including you.

@Jack E. Jett:
"Dallas is really the ass crack of the bible belt."

That must mean that you REALLY like living there!

HA! Get it? COMEDY!

@Bill Perdue:

Earlier polls done by SurveyUSA & Field showed more like 60% of African-Americans were in favor of banning gay marriage. You can search for these results at http://www.surveyusa.com and http://www.field.com.

But I find polling on this matter to be rather suspect…findings in different polls would vary wildly among all age, gender, ethnicity, & geographical groups.

Poor Thumper and Dan. They like to discriminate against us, but don't like it when we have had enough and fight back. Boo fuckin' hoo, honeys.

And Dan, dear, isn't lying a sin? You write: Opposition to Prop. 8 raised far more money. Nope. It did not. Check your facts and quit lying.

I always say that it's your right in America to do what you want, but it's always my right to respond. The Yes on 8 apparently thought this was a one sided discussion. I hope they learn in the coming years that this was just the first paragraph.

@Thumper: Who left the hen-house door open for this homophobic opossum to slip in?

You wrote: >OK. "Any" is an alarming rate, but Matthew Sheppard was like 15 bazillion years ago, and the only subsequent gay-murder I know of is Lawrence King. I wouldn't say it's an epidemic.

I'll just bet that you'd also say that the systematic murder of some six-million Jews during the Holocaust wasn't an "epidemic" either and that it too, happened over 60 "bazillion" years ago.

Had you done even the most rudimentary of searches on the Internet, before plowing your shit onto our plates, you would be aware that some 55,000 homosexuals also perished during Holocaust and that many more thousands of homosexuals were used as guinea pigs in heinous medical experiements carried out by the Nazis, not that these revalations should disturb you, however.

I can just hear you thinking to yourself, "Serves those cocksuckers right. That's all they are good for."

You ignorant fuck, you! If you read the fucking newspapers, did an Internet search or looked up at the TV once in awhile between swigs on your can of Budweiser now and then, you would have a pretty good idea of how many gays have been murdered in the USA since the Sheppard boy got hung out on a fence to dry like shoe-leather.

People like you, aren't bothered by the injustice of such horrendous acts of hatred, so it's highly unlikely that you would have heard the news being screamed at you from your TV screen or jumping out at you from your newspaper. Dumb fucks like you just tune it out and yell for the old lady to bring them another can 'o beer on the way back from washing and drying the supper dishes in the kitchen while you sit on your fat ass that's glued to the recliner.

I could quote figures and name names, but they would only fall on deaf ears who have no desire to hear the truth but only lies and misrepresen-tations of the truth.

You, Sir, are a homophobe, a bigot and a horrible excuse for a human being, gay or straight, since you failed to define yourself before spitting out your venomous bile.

By-the-bye, exactly what is your motivation for coming onto a gay site? Looking for a little surreptitious cock-action in between rug munching sessions, are ya? Or, ain't the old lady giving you any these days since you turned into an old, fat swine?

Oh…and BTW,

BTW, why am I not surprised that you would agree with all the comments Dan made, Thumper?

Dan, stop playing the victim here.

If you're willing to have the LDS Church legally redefined as a "cult" that has all the traditional protections and rights as a "religion," but called "not a religion, but a cult," then we'll be happy to accept your cult's efforts to force us into a separate and unequal category under the law.

Of course, you're not willing to accept such second class status — but you're willing to foist it on others and turn into a teary-eyed bitch when those would-be segregated individuals call your cult to account.

This is for sure one of the dumber complaints I've heard levied from the Nutso Right. Last I checked, we still were covered by the Bill of Rights, and it's my right and everyone else's to speak out in this way.

Suggested slogan for signs tomorrow?

NO GAY DOLLARS TO CALIFORNIA

Hit 'em where it hurts.

Cock-Thumper wrote: >I see right through you, pal. I don't expect the lemmings congratulating you on your "work" to see it or even care, but there are a lot of us who will not allow you to steal OUR freedoms in the name of "equality.

I can't help but wonder how this asshole feels about woman getting the right to vote, blacks getting their civil rights and black being allowed to marry white women?

Perhaps he'd like to see a Proposition putting these issues up to a popular vote, like they just did with gay civil-rights?

The truly scary part is, with so many racist, hateful and bigoted dumb-fucks out there just like Thumper, those Propositions might just get passed as well.

And, I truly hope by saying this, that I am not giving anyone any ideas. I'm sure that they probably already have a pot full of them on the back burner of the stove just waiting for the heat to be turned up.

@gayvirgo:

I've seen the commercials that were run, and I know exactly which ones were funded by the coalition of which my church was a part. Not a one of them was at all misleading. The most popular one to criticize is the one about teaching about gay marriage in schools, but there's nothing misleading about it. California's state code of education states that children should be taught about marriage, and in Massachusetts once gay marria