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Is Racism Among The Gays The Worst It’s Been In Decades?

dougspearman1

Great news everyone: Even with President Obama’s death panels, some things just refuse to die. Like racism in the gay community!

Okay, not exactly something to get excited about. But with all the nonsense about Obama’s presidency effectively eliminating the racial divide, it’s important to remember we still self-segregate, we still look down on others (and place others on a pedestal), and still think cultural traditions are hokey throwbacks to a bygone era. Somebody who knows this reality all too well is Noah’s Arc Doug Spearman, a refreshing actor type who doesn’t immediately drive us into clicking elsewhere.

“People tend to believe that racism, on all sides of the color lines, is something that stops at the gates of the LGBT community,” writes Spearman. Except: They are fooling themselves. In a remark that could casually be swept aside, Spearman asserts: “In fact, I think it’s worse now than it was when I came out in l980.”

Scusi?

Back then the bars felt a lot more friendly, prejudice was a dirty word, and the kids of the l960’s and early 70’s – those that had created the gay movement – were still on the dance floors of America elbow to elbow with the people who’d marched in Vietnam protests and Black Power parades, and had been active participants in the original Civil Rights Movement. Those were the grownups who were standing at the bar when I got there. They welcomed me. But they’re gone. That spirit seems to have evaporated. Not everywhere and not for everyone, but enough so that if you’re over the age of thirty-five you would notice.

Now, somehow, we’ve sunk back into old habits of separating ourselves from each other. People talk about white bars and black bars. We have white prides, black gay prides, and Latina/o gay prides. And they’re more than just celebrations of culture and gayness. These prides exist because a great many men and women feel unwelcome in mainstream gay communities.

gaynessboundaries

So true.

But the good news? At least we’re (sort of) talking about it now. Especially when it comes to hacktivists and their silly civil rights fights.

It’s been happening for a while, but now, suddenly, people are talking about it. Our community has finally decided to talk about its dirty laundry. And it’s not an easy conversation to have. Race and race relations are a thick thread in the fabric of our country. It was a factor in the last presidential election, and for a while it was the cause of a lot of finger pointing after the Proposition 8 decision here in California. In the early days after the election, a lot of gay activist blamed black voters for not showing support for their plight for marriage equality. First they got the numbers wrong. Black voters, especially in Los Angeles, were not the tipping point. Second, they failed to understand what the issues of civil rights and equality mean to black people in this country. They – meaning well-intentioned gay activists – assumed that since theirs was an issue of equality and civil rights, that they’d have natural allies among a people who’d spent centuries being discriminated against. It’s a valid hope. But then again, when did a group of gay activist ever show up to make sure that black and Latino/a neighborhoods had decent schools or safe streets, or march for union job protection? All things being equal, when did that ever happen? How many gay men and women care or are aware that the President of the Southern California branch of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference Eric Lee is being pressured to resign for supporting marriage equality? Where are we as a community on his behalf? We are all first Americans, despite our sexual identity. And, as Americans we inherit its issues like racism. It’s not possible for us not to, is it?

Now, are we about to abandon racial politics and become color blind overnight? Of course not — the same way we’re not about to ditch our sexual orientation as one of our identities. And that would be missing the point, anyhow. Nobody is (or at least, nobody should be) asking anyone to ditch their ethnic identities.

In fact, we’d encourage you to embrace your skin color and what it represents. But where we’re (all) at fault is letting it become a boundary. Using it as an excuse not to mix and mingle. To set up separate institutions.

Much blame falls into the laps of whites, who are fingered for excluding gays of colors. This criticism is, often, on target. But not always; there are plenty of black or Latino gays who self-seclude and ignore opportunities to interact with their white counterparts. You see, this problem is all of our faults, and inevitably it will be all of us who create a solution. Tomorrow? No. The next day? Probably not. But give yourself a week, and try engaging another LGBT person — at Starbucks, the grocery store, on Facebook, or this website — you would otherwise walk right past.

At the very least, you’ll be aware of any inclination to self-segregate. And realize how silly it is.

By:           editor editor
On:           Aug 11, 2009
Tagged: , ,

  • 197 Comments
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      These comments should be interesting.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 11:44 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RomanHans
      RomanHans

      > People tend to believe that racism . . . is something
      > that stops at the gates of the LGBT community.

      Really? Ever hear the phrases “rice queen” or “dinge queen”? I’ve never quite believed anybody could be idiotic enough to use them seriously.

      On the other hand, it’s hard for me to accept any groups whose popular culture is discriminatory. I wouldn’t visit a country whose pop songs talked about killing “batty boys,” and I wouldn’t hire anybody of any color who listened to songs condemning “faggots.”

      Aug 11, 2009 at 11:52 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      By the way, I think this is a well-written article, queerty, that’s in tone with the overall spirit of Spearman’s piece.

      I’ll step away now!

      Aug 11, 2009 at 12:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @TANK:

      Tank, are you drunk again?

      Aug 11, 2009 at 12:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ohomo
      Ohomo

      Anyone who makes broad brushstroke statements about gays being racist is really letting their internalized homophobia pop out from under the rock that is their head.

      Gay bars have always, ALWAYS, been the most integrated bars around. Hell, I grew up in a small southern town and the gay bar was totally integrated and everyone got along. Well, not everyone. The drag queens sometimes got into it and wigs would fly and all…

      What really chaps my hide is LA media people who are stuck in a narrative out of TV about racist this and that, while meanwhile the entire city is wholly dependent on illegal underpaid laborers from south of the border.

      So the script writers who dream this “gays are racist” crap up, do so while they sit at a cafe eating snacks made by some Mexican dude whom they would never, ever acknowledge as their equal in any respect. The hypocrisy is breathtaking.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 12:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sam
      sam

      @Chitown Kev:

      Tank isn’t drunk. He’s just a racist jerk.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 12:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ThatguyFromBoston
      ThatguyFromBoston

      Taste the rainbow. It’s delicious.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 12:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Fitz
      Fitz

      So, is it racist when someone says “I like Mexican guys” 0r whatever? I have my own thoughts, but I would rather hear your input.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 12:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nunya Bizness
      Nunya Bizness

      Great article…. and appropriate on a number of levels.

      One interesting thing to note is that racial tension seems to exist on a heightened level all over America (in LGBT and “mainstream” communities). One consistent response that I get from many is: “Well, at least we’re having the dialogue…. at least we’re TALKING about it!”….

      Which always leads me to wonder: What good is the constant dialogue if we never find a point of agreement or cooperation?

      I am an African American gay male with a very diverse social network. The fallout from the dialogue is consistent (as follows):

      My straight white friends vacillate between being frustratedly intolerant (and remaining in ignorance regarding the plight of minorities) or walking on eggshells and being overly sensitive and super-scared to be labeled a racist.

      My gay white friends either get it spot-on RIGHT (in agreement with the article the older ones seem to have the proper perspective and have a very “global point of view”)or (the younger ones) are very self-focused & ragingly racists and act as if they don’t notice it or simply don’t care (and use the excuse that they’re friends with ME so they couldn’t possibly be racist). Yep — the latter group I take in doses… educating them is a trying experience.

      My black friends (gay & straight) vacillate between being overly-sensitive passivists to being quite militant with a “Fuck ‘em — we don’t need white people and we’re sick of the condescension” attitude. The latter group seems to be increasing as tensions rise… which dismays me because that approach abandons the notion of even TRYING to find a middle ground.

      My hispanic friends (gay & straight) seem to settle on either Black/White inclusion (they identify with either group stronger and take on the opinions of the chosen group) — or they adopt a “black folks have had their chance and blew it; and we outnumber white folks; everybody move over — it’s our time” mentality.

      My asian friends seem to either have no opinion whatsoever and wish to be left out of the discussion — or they identify with mainstream American culture and adopt the associated opinions of those they feel closest to.

      My Indian, African & Middle Eastern friends are all from India, Africa & the Middle East — and still seem focused on the political climate “over there”. LOL!

      When does the LGBT community decide to drop the “ism” and find a common ground so that a common cause can be established? Why is the focus so difficult? I look across my broad spectrum of friends/associates and the one thing I notice is how much we actually have in common (despite our diverse backgrounds). However, at times I wonder how they can be so blind to it.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 12:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dennis
      Dennis

      Hey, Queerty CAN do a respectful, thought-provoking and balanced article…well done.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 12:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sam
      sam

      @Ohomo:

      You’re wrong. The article doesn’t say all “gays are racist”; it says that racism is alive and well in the gay community, just as it is in the straight community. Gays are no different than straight people when it comes to harboring ill will to people of other backgrounds than themselves.

      Why is this shocking news?

      You can see racism on Queerty when people like Tank make statements about not like to see “coloreds” in Queerty’s photo galleries, for instance.

      Also, what does “gays” mean to you.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 1:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Alex Elliott
      Alex Elliott

      I would say that its all out faults, but not sure its the worst its been for decades. People like to stay within there own groups and may be that needs to change!

      Aug 11, 2009 at 1:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Anthony in Nashville
      Anthony in Nashville

      I’m surprised this thread isn’t flowing with the usual invective. It must be because Queerty didn’t address/inflame the topic in its typical manner.

      and @ Chitown Kev: Please contact me when you get a chance.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 1:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Anthony in Nashville:

      I think that blacks are more homophobic and racist than whites by far. If you want to start blaming someone for racism then blame the blacks that want to play the victim and use their “oppression” (blacks haven’t been legally oppressed since 1964 and aren’t even the most oppressed group in the history of this country) as an excuse for their own racism. Blacks today have no clue what it means to be oppressed. The oppression in this generation is towards gays and lesbians. Gays and lesbians can still be denied employment or terminated simply for being gay and lesbian in the majority of states in this country.

      There, now if that doesn’t stir the pot and end up with me being called a racist by about 10 black posters then I don’t know what will.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 1:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • M Shane
      M Shane

      Things have undoubtedly gotten worse, sad to say; certainly noy better. With the dissolution of gay liberation and gay identity and communty in favor of respectability (the- neocloset). Just as gays have rejected all marjinal members of their own kind, that white heteros might not approve, they have rejected blacks, tranies etc. The aim is to be part of the heterosexual community, not the gay one except where it is extremely safe.

      It stricks me that the meat and potatoes of the matter go back to the issue of mainstreaming ,or gays seeking to be assimilated into the respectable white community. Since the respectable white community by and large excludes blacks, then these, mainstraming gays are going , in all possible respects, to take the path of least resistence in staying away from any gays who might impair their chances of being accepted by the mainstream heterosexist hegimony.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 1:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @galefan2004:

      LOL, did you do that simply to stir the pot?

      BTW, even allowing for your beliefs about blacks as “more homophobic and racist” than whites “by far” (which I don’t believe for one minute) really don’t have any power in this country to enforce whatever those beliefs. Only white people can do that on an institutonal and systems level.

      The fact that you had to add the “legally” modifier to your statement about being oppressed at least indicates that you are aware that blacks are oppressed. It’s a start, I guess

      Aug 11, 2009 at 1:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • KD108
      KD108

      @galefan2004: PLEASE tell me you just posted that to create the conflict that’s usually on these blogs relating to racism in the LGBT community and not because you actually believe it…

      I’m going to just write it off as you “stirring the pot” until you (or anyone else) proves otherwise…

      Aug 11, 2009 at 1:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dabq
      Dabq

      @Ohomo: Really? There are still gay bars that ask black patrons for 2 or 3 pieces of ID, so, that theory of integration is debunked and, how many gay bars in any major city even employ people of color, other than a DJ or bouncer? As recent as a couple of years ago in San Francisco it was going on to the point where the liquor board had to get involved. And then the discrimination that many male oriented gay bars have to keep women out, so, in the real world intolerance is alive and well.

      And, the fact that this site which encourages and allows racism under the guise its helping the debate put this up shows, even they get it, its an issue, and one I don’t think will ever go away, the gay community is no different than the straight, you have a hierarchy of folks on top, usually white men, and, the rest a nuisance for the most part. And then you have those who say there is no such thing as racism, only in cyberspace.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 2:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Anthony in Nashville:
      diogenes1967@live.com

      Aug 11, 2009 at 2:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Christopher
      Christopher

      @Nunya Bizness:

      Your opinions are just that but I’d hate for anybody to take them at face value. Your generalization that Latinos opt for a White or Black inclusion ideology and then take on the opinions/beliefs of the chosen group is a bit abusrd. It completely omits the unique American experiences of different Latino nationalities in this country. There is great diversity within the Latino community, some with pure anglo blood all the way to others will pure indigenous blood, which may account for your leap in logic that they adopt the believes of either mainstream White or Black people. I just think it is a bit disprespectful of the storied and rich experience of Latinos in the USA.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 2:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Chitown Kev:

      You said These comments should be interesting.

      Umm…yep. They are. LOL

      Aug 11, 2009 at 2:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Al in Austin
      Al in Austin

      I think racism exists among LGBT folks. For whatever reason, in mainstream society, the term “gay” has become synonymous with “white” and when speaking about a gay man who happens to be nonwhite, it is necessary to add a racial qualifier. I am not willing to go out on a limb and say that racism is better or worse among LGBT people, but I think it mirrors the racism that is at play in larger society.

      It is undeniable that the power structure in the United States particularly privileges white people. As such, white people, particularly men, are the “leaders of the gay community” (as if there is such a thing as a monolithic gay community, or any other community for that matter).

      The piece that is missing from Doug Spearman’s well-written piece is now what? Where do we go from here? How do we break down the walls of racism that not only exist among some GLBT people, but in society at large? I believe it starts in mainstream culture and trickles down. It is great that we are talking about issues related to race (which I think is also inherently related to issues of class and socio-economic status) but we have to get to the point where we can stop talking and start affecting change.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 2:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dgz
      dgz

      hmmm, i wonder if racist jason is going to join this party?

      maybe he grew some good sense…

      Aug 11, 2009 at 2:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nunya Bizness
      Nunya Bizness

      @Christopher:

      Apologies — but my response wasn’t meant to belittle the overall Latino/Latina experience (nor was it meant to be applied that broadly). However, my intent was to convey the focus of the various cultural opinions (as exhibited by specific folks in my social circle) when discussing race in America.

      Considering that the context of most discussions around race (when held with a majority American audience) digress to a point of “Black vs. White”… my associates that don’t fit (or aren’t included) in either “box” will express their opinion as it relates to either side — or, as I indicated — they’ll take a totally seperatist stance and speak to everyone getting over it and making way for the assertion of the Latin culture in America (which is very strong).

      In agreement with you — Latin culture in America has its most prevalent roots in Spain, Native America and Africa (from the slave trade). Often, when the “dialogue” occurs – those that strongly identify with the African or Native American branches of their ancestry will often sympathize with the “black” perspective presented. Those who strongly identify with their Spanish ancestry will often sympathize with the “white” or “mainstream” perspective. And, thirdly — there are those who think we should all get over it and realize that the New Latin American culture is a leading force for change in this country.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 2:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      At this point I think that the racism exibited in the gay community (And yes, this is just my own opinion, I could very well be wrong) is more of the kind of racism that is somewhat looks based. i.e. somebody only wants to date black guys, or doesn’t want to date latinos etc… Anytime I hear about anybody feeling uncomfortable in a bar, it was never because of what anybody said or did to them, it was THIER impression that they weren’t welcome in there.

      To all the Black guys, Latin guys, Asian guys, I’ve got news for you, all the white guys in there didn’t feel comfortable either. Gay bars can be intimidating to single guys looking to meet people. EVERYBODY in there feels like they are being judged. If you didn’t feel like you were welcome in that bar talk to the tall skinny white guy with acne, or the short heavier guy who has gone home alone the last 10 times he’s been in there. I’m sure they can share some of their own feelings.

      Just my 2 cents. Oh, and for the record. Lookswise, ANY race is fare game. But you have to have a great looking ass…..does that make me buttist? ;)

      Aug 11, 2009 at 2:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @galefan2004:

      For the record, Doug Spearman himself has bought up the “pot calling the kettle black” point regarding gay black racism against other ethnicities. I would strongly disagree with you that “blacks are more racist and homophobic by far” for a nearly infinite number of reasons but the issue is not simply one of gay white racism against gay blacks or Latinos.

      Oh, how I dread the “have you ever dated or been with a white man” question. At that point, I consider the date to be effectively over.

      Now…Let’s work with that firebomb.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 2:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nunya Bizness
      Nunya Bizness

      @Al in Austin:

      That’s exactly the point I MEANT for my post to make… LOL!

      At what point do we stop simply talking, expressing our opposing opinions and pointing fingers; and, instead seek to find common ground?

      I didn’t get involved in any real form of gay activism until my late 20’s; and after moving to the New South.

      What I was surprised by is that — when rallying support — my hetero friends (of all different race and cultures) were very supportive of my efforts to participate in fostering LGBT equality within the local community.

      Even more shocking, however, was that my LGBT friends & colleagues (who were also involved) were constantly squabbling over Black vs. White — and seemed intent on excluding one another. Now, locally, it seems as if everyone has simply settled on being a “divided community” and seeking their own best interest. I can’t seem to find the positivity (or a platform for any progress) in this divided stance…

      Aug 11, 2009 at 2:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • prissysissy
      prissysissy

      Part of the problem with racism being more overt today in the US LGBT community is that more and more gay people are coming out in the South – they bring all their southern prejudices as they join the gay community.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 3:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @M Shane: It couldn’t possibly be that loving one person for the rest of your life and wanting to be with that one person for the rest of your life is a HUMAN notion (that doesn’t belong to either community). No, that couldn’t possibly be it. It must be that the gays just want to conform to the hetero lifestyle every time they think this way. Would you rather have all gay people frequenting bath houses and having sex with as many partners as possible during a given week (as long as its “safe” because god knows having sex with the man you have been with for years without a condom is much worse than banging 5 a night in a bath house with a condom every night of your life).

      Aug 11, 2009 at 3:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Chitown Kev: Yes, the big BO doesn’t exist and only white people vote. Umm, no, you have to be bloody fucking insane to believe that. Even white elected officials cater to the minority vote every single election. Why do you think Sotomayer got confirmed with absolutely no struggle to keep her out? It was because the powers that be were afraid of pissing off the Hispanic voters. Decisions in this country are made with minorities in mind now, and you have to be insane to think otherwise.

      Blacks are still oppressed in many areas of this country, but seriously when you have gang members and drug dealers representing your people in your area then you can’t exactly blame the ones oppressing you for wanting to stay away from you. Seriously, in a small town even the black folk are afraid of other black folk.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 3:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @KD108: I stand by my statements as 100% true. I posted it simply to piss people off though.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 3:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Chitown Kev: Not as much as I dread the white people that only date black men. Seriously, I think the tendency in the black community is to throw whitey under the buss. You guys love to bring up slavery and inequality, but you simply over look abolitionist and white people that fought for racial inequality when you do so. You love to blame the white people for being racist, but at the same time you lump all white people together and if a white person dare say or do something you aren’t 100% in a agreement with you label them as a racist with no questions asked. I’m not saying there are not white radical extreme racist, but there are also black radical extreme racists. Racism is a TWO WAY street.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 3:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      “Decisions in this country are made with minorities in mind now, and you have to be insane to think otherwise.”

      True, but racial minorities still don’t control the institutional levels of power that white people do.

      “Yes, the big BO doesn’t exist and only white people vote. Umm, no, you have to be bloody fucking insane to believe that.”

      You’d have to be pretty bloody fucking insane to even infer that from my comment.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 3:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @prissysissy: I would agree with you, but you can not possibly say that being racist is a southern tradition and that prejudices “belong” to the south. Just as many people hate black people in small towns in the northern states as they do in the south. Hell, West Virgina is even an extremely racist area, and they succeeded from Virgina because they didn’t want to back their position in the Civil War.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 3:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @galefan2004:

      How can anyone who has read any of my comments on queerty (even the above one about one of my experiences with gay black racism) possibly lump me in the way that you just did. The same one who has been called a “snow queen” on this very blog by other gay blacks.

      Honey, I don’t have to call you a racist, you are doing a pretty damn good job of that yourself.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 3:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Chitown Kev: Yes, most minorities actually have more power than the white male. Its not the white male that uses things like affirmative action and threats of law suits to get hired in companies when they are not the most qualified applicant. Its also not the white people that bend the votes of elected officials to their whim simply by threatening riots and protests if they don’t listen to them. The minorities in this country are much more powerful than you want to imagine.

      Well your comment was that minorities have NO power. You didn’t say less power you said NO power. I think its pretty obvious that that is full on ape shit crazy. However, I think you say stuff like this because your culture has taught you that when all else fails play the victim card. I mean, its not those drugs that were in the trunk of the black guys car that sent him to prison for 20 years it was the color of his skin.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 3:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nunya Bizness
      Nunya Bizness

      @prissysissy:

      Your statement: “Part of the problem with racism being more overt today in the US LGBT community is that more and more gay people are coming out in the South – they bring all their southern prejudices as they join the gay community”.

      I wish it was that explainably “cut & dry”… but the realization is that most New Southerners are transplanted Northerners.

      Secondarily — upon moving South, I was QUITE surprised at how inclusive and diverse the mainstream population can be. Coming from the Northern Midwest (Detroit & Chicago) — the New South is MUCH less segregated than one would think.

      The LGBT community’s racism is markedly higher (or maybe just louder?) than one sees in day-to-day dealings. Secondarily — the LGBT community in my area seems to constantly cross and subdivide.

      Example: The Lesbian faction tends to be much more diverse, inclusive and sympathetic of others seeking to reach out to the LGBT community; than that of the gay male faction. Secondly, I’ll see many gay, white males preach diversity in the workplace (and will partner with African American business circles and Resource Networks within the corporation); and they’ll be socially inclusive of straight, black females and straight black males. However, when partnering for LGBT initiatives — those same men will quickly shut out their gay black male supporters. And, to take it to a lower level, in social settings (homes of friends, clubs, etc) — those same white males will definitely express aversion to the presence of gay black males.

      To be fair — I’ve also seen this issue work in reverse (black offense to white defense).

      All of this leaves me to believe that the driving force is that of clashing gay, male cultures. We seem to be leading the rush toward seperatism. Seems that we, gentlemen, largely have a problem with each other.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 3:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • AlwaysGay
      AlwaysGay

      70% of black voters in California voted to take away gay people’s right to marry. Since that election in 2008, many black gays have worked hard to cover that up and deflect blame on to gay people particularly white gay people. We often hear that gay people haven’t worked hard enough to turn black voters away from taking away our rights and that we should help repair black populated schools and neighborhoods and end black-on-black violence. Basically we as gay people should forego seeking equal rights and instead work on black interests because in the minds of many black people gay rights are trivial and gay people are white and rich and therefore obligated to fix black problems. It’s an excuse. Those white religious groups that black congregations have joined to take away gay people’s rights are not in black neighborhoods ending black-on-black violence or repairing black populated schools. Gay voters didn’t avoid voting 70% for Barack Obama because we didn’t have all our rights and he’s black.

      Black gay pride events, black gay clubs, and black gay organizations are a product of self-segregation not racism. The black gay people who set up these institutions wanted to serve black gay people to “keep it black.”

      “…gays seeking to be assimilated into the respectable white community.” – M Shane

      Let me guess, marriage is for white people therefore gay people who are seeking marriage rights are trying to be white and heterosexual. First, heterosexuals do not own marriage. Second, gay couples seeking marriage rights or getting married are still gay.

      Doug was called a mandingo, oh, the racism. *sarcasm* Someone has to explain how “snow queen”, “rice queen” or “dinge queen” are racist terms.

      Here is another example of a black gay person condoning anti-gay bigotry and violence from black heterosexuals. Dwan Prince, a black gay man now claims to be heterosexual and wants the black heterosexual males that attacked him to get the least possible sentence because he agrees with what they did.
      http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid104370.asp

      CAM, you are right. Most of this “white gays are racist” meme is because many non-whites believe because a white person is not interested in them that they are racist.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 3:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nunya Bizness
      Nunya Bizness

      @Chitown Kev:

      Firebomb?… truly!

      I actually have no problem with the “Have you ever dated [insert race in question]” — because often that question will come from someone respectfully attempting to assess MY level of prejudice/preference. Often that person has either been spurned by other black men… or is simply taking a foray into personally “unchartered territory”; which, in my opinion, obligates me to be kind (or, at the least, socially patient).

      I DO have a problem with folks who state “I only date [insert race of preference] men/women” or “I’d NEVER date [insert race of repulsion] men/women”.

      Everyone has some sort of dating preference — but how does one completely rule out an entire population of individuals based on cultural background? I’m from the “Never say never” or “Never say ALWAYS” camp.

      And… to further that — it incenses me when a person of a specific race states that they’d NEVER date men/women of their own race! They, above all, should be aware of the spectrum of individuality within their own race…

      Aug 11, 2009 at 3:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rhydderch
      Rhydderch

      @galefan2004: Talk about painting with a broad brush. There are racists of every color but to state that blacks are more racist than whites is just ridiculous and you know it. I figure this is just Galefan playing to his audience. I recognize that you have a reputation to uphold on Queerty and who would you be if you weren’t labeled an asshole each and everyday. Yes we know your step-father is black and this somehow give you carte blanche to make racist remarks but please give it a rest. Using piss poor examples of how some convict blames whitey for his incarceration really nails it. Yes blacks are more racist than whites because I saw a black guy on Cops say “F-whitey!”, “My stepfather doesn’t like black people either and did I mention he’s black?” Well I’ve met lots of self-hating blacks like your stepfather and comments like his and yours do nothing except further the divide. If that’s your motive, you’re even more pathetic than I ever imagined.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 3:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      “Basically we as gay people should forego seeking equal rights and instead work on black interests because in the minds of many black people gay rights are trivial and gay people are white and rich and therefore obligated to fix black problems.”

      Actually, I have never held that position that gay people should forego anything. Black gay people can’t forego those issues in the black community because many black gays are affected by them, much more than gay whites or straight blacks. Now should gay whites help black with black issues also, yes. After all, one of the first groups that MLK reached out to were poor whites in the South.

      As far as the problems of the black community generally, that’s for other black folks to work out ALSO and i personally get very, very angry when straight black folks try to scapegoats gays (white or black) for the problems in the black community.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 4:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Nunya Bizness:

      No, I am speaking of when I am dating or talking up another gay black person when that question pops up. I hate that question because once I answer it honestly then all of these white diatribes pop up, etc. etc. and, as I stated, the date is effectively over.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 4:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dabq
      Dabq

      @Chitown Kev: Interesting debate.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 4:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @AlwaysGay:

      “many non-whites believe because a white person is not interested in them that they are racist.”

      Well, first of all I don’t think that all or even most gay white men are just that damn special to give 2 seconds of thought when it does happen. Plus, I’ve seen gay black men turn away gay white men because they don’t do white men. Now I know for a fact that’s a 2 way street.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 4:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nunya Bizness
      Nunya Bizness

      @Chitown Kev:

      umm… wow.

      Never been asked that by another black man (that wasn’t simply a highly inexperienced friend just having one of those “sharing experiences” type of conversations). Especially not on a date…

      But, then again, my Crew is a culturally diverse hodge-podge of individuals (with very similar purpose in life, however). I think people take one look at my friends and rightfully assume that I’ve been all over the map. Which explains why the leading “relationship inquiry” question from most is “So what exactly IS your type?”

      Aug 11, 2009 at 4:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dave
      Dave

      I’ve always said that the worst thing to be in life is a gay, fat, black ugly man who likes science fiction. Mind you it’s not a personal bias…it’s just a conclusion I came to after observing how the “i’m not a racist” gays of southern california treated a lot of “their” people.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 4:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Nunya Bizness:

      Yeah. I will admit that most of those incidents happened in my younger days, so you may be right about the inexperience factor (and gay white gays aren’t the only ones that play the fetish game, either).

      Aug 11, 2009 at 4:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • AlwaysGay
      AlwaysGay

      @Chitown Kev: Sure there are black gays that are not interested in dating white gay men. But the white gay men are screaming, it’s racism!

      Aug 11, 2009 at 4:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RainaWeather
      RainaWeather

      stereotypes are bad.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 4:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Rhydderch: Actually, its not ridiculous. Every single black person is programmed to hate whitey and they all hate whitey. They blame whitey for everything. They don’t accept that they just need to work hard to get ahead but instead say that whitey is holding them back. They don’t accept that you go to jail for committing crime but instead say that whitey put them in jail because they are black. Its always a cry of victimization. They exist on that cry.

      You see the funny thing is that while I’m the resident asshole of the internet, I’m actually pretty much 100% in real life and am actually more interested in helping people than pissing them off. Go figure!

      I don’t need to a carte blanche to make racist remarks. I haven’t made any racist remarks. I can’t help that black people believe all white people that aren’t kissing their ass are racist. I’m just not going to roll over and let you make me feel bad because I don’t buy into your victimization as an excuse defense.

      I’m sorry, but its not just some convict its every single one of them. If you talk to any black person they always play the blame game. They just love blaming this country for blacks being imprisoned disproportionately. However, they never blame the actual perpetrators of the crime. Its just another use of the victim card.

      Its not that I saw one black guy use their victimization as an excuse. Its that I’ve never seen a single black guy I have seen very few black people not blame their failures on whitey. I have seen very few people actually succeed on their own merit, and normally the ones that do succeed on their own merit are very much against things like affirmative action and playing the victim card at every opportunity.

      The black people I know (not just my step-daddy) that don’t like black people are sick of the fact that blacks are more known to be involved in crime against their own people (statistics show that black people are more likely to victimize black people than white people) and people like that simply do not trust other black people. They also can’t stand the victim card being played time and time again.

      I can’t further the divide because I did not cause the divide. The divide is caused every time a black person tries to say that they are worse off than a white person. A black person seems to think they are justified to things such as affirmative action to get ahead although the people that are most unable to get ahead in this country are not black but are white people from Appalachia. I think we are kidding ourselves when we try to justify that it is ok for the black person to use the victimization card and therefore get special treatment but we expect the poor hard working people of Appalachia to be exploited or work their own way out of debt. That is a problem.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 4:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nunya Bizness
      Nunya Bizness

      @AlwaysGay:

      Hard to address that rant.. but I’ll start by saying that I agree with THIS statement:

      “The black gay people who set up these institutions wanted to serve black gay people to ‘keep it black.'”

      I’m not a big proponent of “seperate but equal” — because that approach doesn’t promote the internal growth or external understanding of the individual groups promoting the seperation.

      When the local “Gay Black Pride” push occurred in the town in which I currently live — of course I knew some of the planners and started the “20 Questions of Why?” dialogue. (Because, even though the LGBT racial climate SUCKS in this city — that did seem to be the ONE week where the entire group was unified and cohesive).

      Their response was the growing tensions between the white & black LGBT factions… HRC’s growing, non-inclusive-of-minorities presence; and the growing lack of inclusion overall. HOWEVER, their biggest reason for having it (as voiced by one of my contacts) was the large lack of support they were getting from the mainstream black community. They felt like having a black-specific gay pride event would shed some positivity and awareness on black LGBT’s within it’s own greater community (and remove the backward myth that the majority of LGBT’s are white — thus removing the sense of “otherness”).

      Can’t say that it works… but I can say that maybe it’s not as trivial as a simple need to “do our own thing” and have everything all FUBU’d out all the time.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 4:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Chitown Kev: See that is because when the black person is busy playing the victim card he simply can’t admit that he has more issues with “race trading” than any white person will ever have. White people are much more accepting of whites that date blacks than blacks will ever be accepting of blacks that date whites. They even try to shame or guilt the black person into feeling remorse for dating the white person because it throws off the legitimacy of the victimization when you bring a white person into the equation that is completely accepting of black people.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 4:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      “Every single black person is programmed to hate whitey and they all hate whitey. They blame whitey for everything.”

      I’m not.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 4:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RainaWeather
      RainaWeather

      @Chitown Kev: pwnage!

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @galefan2004:

      “White people are much more accepting of whites that date blacks than blacks will ever be accepting of blacks that date whites.”

      I will agree with this.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RainaWeather
      RainaWeather

      @Chitown Kev:

      “I will agree with this.”

      Not me. I’d say they’re about what and what. Especially when you consider the amount of Blacks who date Whites to make themselves feel better.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RainaWeather
      RainaWeather

      I’m on a Harry Potter forum right now discussing an anti- gay marriage event in Rhode Island and everyone’s managed not to be racist or condescending. We should try that here.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Chitown Kev: I don’t believe you! Apparently, you must still have some victimization in you or you would want to succeed on your own merits instead of standing up for things like affirmative action.

      Why will you agree with that statement when you are trying to make the argument that black people aren’t racist. That statement simply proves you wrong.

      @RainaWeather: Why do they need to make themselves feel better by dating whites? Is it because they believe that they are inferior to whites and when they can get a white mans attention they feel better about themselves? Seems like you are supporting my notion that black people just love playing the victimization card at every opportunity.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Chitown Kev:

      Waitaminute.

      From what I have observed, generally, straight whites are more accepting of interracial relationships than straight blacks.

      In the gay community, I have observed both blacks and whites that are uncomfortable with interacial dating. But, I think gay folks tend to get over it.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nunya Bizness
      Nunya Bizness

      @galefan2004:

      And neither am I…

      In fact — paternally, I’m the black product of four generations of college educated black men who got up and built legacies when other black folks could not (or were focused on complaining about why they thought they could not).

      Secondly — I get ALL kinds of Cultural Cringe everytime I hear a black person blame white people (or non-blacks, for that matter) for all of their ills.

      And guess what — the VAST majority of the black folks that I know share my views. They don’t hate black people (because they love themselves)… but they do hate the generally negative perception of us that seems to constantly be promoted; and they hate it even more when other black people buy into that perception of themselves.

      And — it’s in pot-stirring posts like yours that MY brand of “Black People” find their most damaging statements like “All black people [insert negativity]…” because that states that four generations of good example and hard work does nothing to combat that negative perception for those bent on ignorance (such as you & people like you — black or white — bent on believing that you can lump everyone into a statement of “All black people….”).

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @RainaWeather: Come on, you know you love to hate me. If I stopped spouting off stupidity that could be seen as racist (although I would definitely not allow the label of being a racist) then you would be bored.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @galefan2004:

      Actually, when I applied to colleges, for example, I made a point of not identifying my race.

      And I know that I am more advantaged than a white kid that grew up in Appalachia. Again, don’t assume that you know how I think or what I’ve experienced in life simply because I’m black.

      As I said, I don’t even have to call you a racist. You do a pretty good job of that on your own.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • youcanthandlethetruth
      youcanthandlethetruth

      @Chitown Kev: Kev sorry about galefan, he seems to thrive on stereotypes and irrational hatred.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Nunya Bizness:

      Seems like you agree with my victimization excuse when you say things like “or were focused on complaining about why they thought they could not”. It also seems odd that if you go back 4 generations then it becomes quite obvious that your family is living proof that affirmative action was never needed to begin with. Kind of has to piss you off when the majority of the country looks at you and just assumes you got to where you are because of aa doesn’t it?

      So do I; however, when I call attention to it I’m labeled as a racist. I don’t literally mean that all black people behave this way. Its just funner to say that all black people are this way because as we all know I love pissing people off.

      Yet again another place that you and I actually agree with each other, but yet again because I’m white I’m not allowed to think that way or its considered racism. I don’t dislike black people I just dislike anyone that plays the victimization excuse for any reason, and unfortunately, in my experience, I’ve seen it played much more by black society then by white society.

      Then maybe you should work to end the culture of victimization that is predominant in the black community. I can only react based on feed back, and unfortunately the majority of black people I have ever known or have ever heard about play up the victimization culture. I’m not saying there are not a lot of hard working, honest, decent black people out there. I’ve only been blessed enough to meet maybe 1 or 2 though, and I’ve met plenty of black people.

      I lump people together to piss people off. I don’t actually agree with the lump. Its like saying all gay people are obsessed with sex. Its simply not true. Unfortunately, most of the gay men I’ve met are still obsessed with sex though. Unfortunately, every stereotype has an element of truth, and its that element that needs to be removed to remove the stereotype.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @youcanthandlethetruth:

      So do you, bigot.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Chitown Kev: Why shouldn’t I? You assume you know how I think or how I feel or what I’ve been through simply because I am white.

      The black community automatically assumes that whites are more privileged when its simply not the case. They also assume that all whites are pro-slavery and anti-equality when its simply not the case. I can’t help what the black community spouts out. I can’t change your figure heads. Maybe you should do something about the stuff that comes out of the mouths of the people that represent you because all I’m doing is giving my perception of their message.

      When you have black protesters outside of every high profile criminal case that involves a black man rather they are guilty or not then there is a problem. When blacks back OJ Simpson regardless of rather he “If I Did It” to Nichole and Ron or not there is a problem. When blacks back Michael Vick because he is black regardless of the fact that he chose to fight dogs (and statistics show that if you treat animals one way you are normally willing to treat humans the same way) there is a problem. If you don’t like people like me responding to you how I do then maybe you should start by raining in some of the most vocal members of your community.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      “I’m not saying there are not a lot of hard working, honest, decent black people out there.”

      LOL, now you sound like Hillary Clinton and all of her “hard-working white people.”

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @youcanthandlethetruth: My hatred is rational and not based on stereotypes? What about yours?

      I guess we can’t all base our hatred on a 2000+ year old book though that was written by men. Then again, the Bible is infallible, and of course we know the bible is infallible because the bible says that it is infallible.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Chitown Kev: Trust me, with all the things I’ve been called or compared to in my life, I think saying I sound like Hilary is your way of trying to compliment me.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Chitown Kev: That is another thing that really pissed me off. I was automatically labeled a racist because I supported Hilary. At the time I was much less able to write off the black community. Hell, I’ve even had some awesome relationships with black friends and even black lovers, but when they started calling me a racist simply because I supported Hilary over Obama I started thinking I might as well examine the issue a little more closely when it comes to race.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @galefan2004:

      Actually, I don’t assume anything about except based on what you type in.

      And black people are individuals, besides. I was angry about OJ (especially in the way he played on the emotions of the black community in that regard) and Michael Vick. And I have never bought into the idea that any of thes “spokemen” represents me or my views in their entirely. In some case they do, in some cases they don’t.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RainaWeather
      RainaWeather

      @galefan2004: No I actually like my Harry potter board much more. And you probably don’t meet many decent people of any race.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @galefan2004:

      I was actually a Hillary supporter in the primaries (nominally, policy wise the difference between her and Obama were a wash, I favored Hillary on experience) until she made that very statement.

      Mind you, I live in Obama-ville, so even most of the whites that I knew were Obama supporters.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @youcanthandlethetruth:

      Speaking of irrational, statements like his last one make me want to reach through the screen and smack him in the head

      @galefan2004:

      Man you are making all us white people look like arrogant dumb fucking crackers, and some of us don’t appreciate it.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RainaWeather
      RainaWeather

      @Chitown Kev: haha, me too. Actually, lots of Blacks I knew were initially for Hillary, basically because she was someone we already knew.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @RainaWeather: See there you go spouting out about your assumptions. You don’t know me. You have no fucking clue about me. You honestly think you can judge my real life based on my presence here on the boards? That is some funny shit right there.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nunya Bizness
      Nunya Bizness

      @galefan2004:

      YOUR WORDS: “I can only react based on feed back, and unfortunately the majority of black people I have ever known or have ever heard about play up the victimization culture. I’m not saying there are not a lot of hard working, honest, decent black people out there. I’ve only been blessed enough to meet maybe 1 or 2 though, and I’ve met plenty of black people.”

      MY RETORT: Stop slumming then, bitch — go out and meet some real black people (or maybe roam around the cul-de-sac and actually have a conversation with your black neighbors).

      After that — take a tour of the predominantly white, blue collar areas of Boston, NYC and Chicago and meet the myriads of white people who actually feel like they can’t get ahead because Affirmative Action gives all of their jobs to black people. You’ll see that the “disenfranchised” are often looking for someone to blame — and, self-proclaimed victims come in every color.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RainaWeather
      RainaWeather

      @galefan2004: Don’t get your knickers in a bunch, I’m just following your example.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @strumpetwindsock: What is a matter you have a problem standing up for your own race and calling out the majority of the black community on their stupidity and their ability to play the race card at any given turn? Its so bad that they even have the white people playing the race card for them. There are exceptions to every rule, but you really can’t deny the way the majority of black people act. If you don’t like the fact that I stand up for my race and speak my mind than I guess all I can say is it sucks to be you.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Nunya Bizness: I live in a small town in Ohio, black people avoid this place like the plague. I can’t really blame them what with the yearly KKK rally and other such activities, but honestly, I don’t have black neighbors. I’m not saying that I support the KKK by any means, I’m just stating why black people normally avoid small towns in Ohio.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @RainaWeather: No you are not. I never judged you. I judged your race. Say what you want about my race just don’t make it a personal attack. This again is where you want to play the victim card though. You can attack me on a personal level; however, I came back at you you would just label me racist. Hell, I’ve even been told on these boards that black people simply can’t be racist, and yet I’m expected to act nicely on them. Fat chance of that ever happening.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Nunya Bizness:
      “You’ll see that the “disenfranchised” are often looking for someone to blame — and, self-proclaimed victims come in every color.”

      Pretty much.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RainaWeather
      RainaWeather

      @galefan2004: I would never judge all white people on a fucker like you. However, I feel it is fair to make judgments about you based on what you write, assuming you are in your right mind. And really, how long has it been (before today) sine I’ve even responded to something you’ve posted? I usually just pass over anything with your name attached to it.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RainaWeather
      RainaWeather

      @RainaWeather: sine=since

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nunya Bizness
      Nunya Bizness

      @galefan2004:

      Your online character is amusing.

      Please… black folks might come in small numbers; but there’s one or two in every town (and maybe you should find the one that’s NOT the town crackhead and date him instead).

      I grew up in Ann Arbor, MI (the town that helped to END Affirmative Action in college admissions) – where we welcome the KKK every year for their annual march… then we (along with all of our Jewish and hard working white, asian & latin friends)hurl obscenities at them and attempt stomp them to a bloody pulp. It’s an experience in catharsis.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @galefan2004:

      Actually, I think that “race” is one of the shallowest measures by which to judge anyone. Whatever “race” means nowadays.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Nunya Bizness:

      Well, to be precise, quotas can nolonger be applied in college admissions. Race can still be a factor but no quotas.

      Actually, Obama has proposed changing affirimative action from being mostly race/ethnic based to giving much greater consideration to economic circumstances. A lot of people weren’t paying attention to that when he said it in the campaign. I happen to agree with him on that.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @galefan2004:

      No, I’m calling you on your bullshit attempts to make it all about race.

      There are a lot of people of all races and ethnicities that are trying to get beyond that racist garbage and bridge the misunderstanding between our people. Attitudes like yours go a long way toward undoing that good work.

      You want to start talking about equality? You have no idea how much you owe, and if you want to start fanning those flames you are asking for a fight which you will lose.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 5:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nunya Bizness
      Nunya Bizness

      @Chitown Kev:

      Thanks for the constructive correction, Kev!

      And — I agree as well. The growing economic divide in the U.S.is a subject from which the middle class and the mainstream public as a whole have been running(because it automatically signals their demise and we want to keep the possibility of the American Dream alive).

      However, if this country continues to progress — *proverbially knocks on wood* — race will take a second seat to class/economic standing.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 6:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @RainaWeather: Maybe that is because I rarely post here anymore. If you honestly judge people based of what they spout out on the internet then you are most stupid than I originally would have ever considered you being.

      Let me spell it out for you.

      Random Idiot + Internet Ambiguity = Total Raving Lunatic

      Its just that simple. I’m the random idiot, and half the shit I say on the internet I would never ever consider saying in real life or even thinking in real life. When I’m online its to piss people off because I enjoy pissing people off. Its like stress relief. When I’m in RL I’m nothing like this at all. I’m more concerned with helping people in real life than I am with pissing them off.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 6:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Nunya Bizness: That reminds me of the rally in Lakewood, Ohio, where the police had to fence off the KKK to keep them from getting killed by the legions of protesters. Its kind of like putting a caged animal in the zoo just for entertainment value.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 6:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Chitown Kev: I don’t think you can even define race anymore because like it or not we are all mixed. At some point there is a little bit of everything in most of us. I don’t think pure “race” even exists, and even if it did the entire human species is traceable back to the same female mitochondria, so in short every single one of us is related to each other in some very distant or not so distant way.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 6:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Chitown Kev: I happen to agree with him on that too. However, you have to be fair, AA when it was passed was never a quota system. No where in that entire law is there a quota system. The companies turned it into a quota system because that makes it easier to challenge on a legal basis.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 6:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @galefan2004:

      We agree. I gotta book, but I will be black…uh, back

      Aug 11, 2009 at 6:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @galefan2004:

      True.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 6:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @strumpetwindsock: Really, how much do I owe according to you? My ancestry is composed of emigrants that came to this country after slavery ended and were treated like absolute garbage because they were emigrants (Scottish/German) and Native Americans. What exactly do I owe?

      Seriously, I owe nothing. One group of my ancestors were attacked for being who they are and the other were exterminated for being who they are and yet I owe something because some other people’s ancestors happened to own slaves? That is funny to me. That is an example of racism. Judging the whole race based on one tiny aspect of it. I personally never owned slaves and I don’t discriminate against blacks so I don’t “owe” shit.

      Personally, I would welcome being removed from the shit hole that is Africa (yes because Africans are all doing so well right now that its a different cultural war every day, black men in Africa are getting but raped into submissiveness, and AIDS is so rampant there its more likely to find someone with it and without it) and being owned by a master (yes some slave masters were absolute garbage and treated their slaves worse than their dogs but many were very welcoming) as compared to being exterminated because I dared to live on the land before others did like my own ancestors went through. Yet, they still throw my people on reservations and treat them like second class citizens. Yet, I owe something to the black community because of how a bunch of rich Anglo-Saxon bastards that were full of themselves treated them. That is so fucking rich its not even funny.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 6:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RainaWeather
      RainaWeather

      @galefan2004:

      CRUCIO…

      Aug 11, 2009 at 6:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Chitown Kev: Enjoy your book. You see, I’m not as big of a racist asshole that most make me out to be. I exaggerate for effect as part of my internet self. It gets people’s attention, and I have learned in this life that the only way you ever get people talking is if you get their attention.

      You thought you were just ranting, but I was taking your points as valid.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 6:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @galefan2004:

      So you’re Indian now?

      That puts things in a slightly different perspective given your posts about how poorly the white race has been treated.

      Unfortunately I don’t enjoy that convenience of playing the Indian race card like that, because I am pretty much 100 percent white guy. But I figured if you were native you might have a bit better understanding of things.

      No matter, you still owe, baby, just by living here. Who do you think picks your vegetables, sugar and coffee, sews your clothes, builds your appliances? Who do you think built (and died building) many of the railways and roads that bring all your stuff to you?
      Who do you think has to make do with bad land, poisoned water, lack of services because we get the lion’s share. Who do you think winds up getting profiled by cops, attacked, thrown in jail because those thugs ar elooking out for our interests?

      It doesn’t matter what colour you are. We all benefit, and if you don’t see that there is inherent racism at the bottom of our privilege then you do not have your eyes open, man.

      And your claim that your comments here have no meaning is just bullshit. Words have meaning. If you are joking then at least have the sense to write “I am fucking joking”.

      Don’t shoot your mouth off and then back off from your words like a coward when you get called on it.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 6:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • c0rpusdelicti
      c0rpusdelicti

      @galefan2004:

      I would respond to you with angry, passionate, detailed argument, complete with academic references, undeniable counter-evidence against your shitty suppositions, and amazingly incisive wit.

      However.

      After reading each idiotic comment after idiotic comment you’ve made, I’ve determined that such effort would be futile.

      Y’see, people like you are actually, objectively, worthless. You are scum. You are less than barbaric, for you live in a more enlightened era yet still, obstinately, persist in wallowing in the basest hatred and most willful ignorance.

      Furthermore, you proudly proclaim your status as a troll as if it explains, excuses, or adds anything of value to your pathetic whining. It doesn’t. It only exposes the depth of your pathology.

      You miss your white privilege. You long for it. You weep for it. You lay awake at nights tentatively touching yourself, images of Klan members dancing in your head, until you burst into a vaguely violent, palpably disturbing masturbatory frenzy. You see the shining, nude, sweaty body of Jerry Falwell as you orgasm.

      And you think to yourself, before every comment, “Ooooh, if only I can get enough people to pay attention to me, I can gain some validation as a white person, if only an inappropriately angry, foolish, and loathsome one!”

      I’m sorry that you can no longer count on your economic and cultural “hard work” (i.e. centuries of racism that has paved a path of privilege for every other person who can be called, somatically, white) to heighten your self-esteem.

      Haha, no, sorry, I lied. I’m not sorry. In fact, I’m happy. I’m glad you’re so pissed off. I only wish I could be the sole person responsible for it. I wish the white privilege you long for was a living, breathing person so I could viciously, graphically murder it in cold blood. And then shit down its neck.

      So, in summmation, I just wanted to say this to you, sir: Fuck you. Fuck yourself. Please, for the continued progress of humanity, go die.

      Also, a curse: I hope you never get head again because clearly you lack the brain to appreciate it.

      Whoooooo, that’s kinda cathartic.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 7:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rick
      Rick

      Racism is alive and well in this country, and therefore you will find some gays that are raging racists.

      This speaks to a larger issue of racism in America, not just with the gays.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 7:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @strumpetwindsock: The illegal immigrant labor force does. I don’t have a problem with Latino/Latina people even the ones that are exploited for free labor costs even though the are illegal. I think that is a problem, but I don’t blame the Latin population for it.

      I’ve always been NA. My grandmother was 1/2 and it runs on the other side too. My grandfather didn’t come to this country until the early 1900s. He is from Canada and of Scottish decent. The rest of my ancestors came here in the late 1800s from Germany. I don’t dislike the black population, I just simply don’t like them playing the victim card. I’m not saying that ever black person does it, but enough do it to get the community a bad name. It would be different if the black community was the only group ostracized, but they simply are not.

      Those railways were built partially by NA people that couldn’t find any other work and part by the Chinese people. I have no problem with the Chinese. Actually, I get along with them very well, but again, their culture doesn’t play the victim card. Oh, it might be important to note that hard working Scottish and German emigrants also worked on those rail ways. Did I mention I’m Scottish/German/NA yet?

      My guess is that the NA population is the one that has the best stance when it comes to talking about land disputes. Seeing the land was all stolen from them to begin with.

      Seems like the gays get profiled and attacked by the police much more than the blacks do anymore. Also, you are kidding yourself if you think that racial profiling is any more rampant than hetero/homo profiling, or poor person profiling in general. Try looking like a vagrant and going into a store and see how quickly you get followed. Try putting a pride sticker on your car and going to Akron, Ohio, around 10 o’clock at night when the bars start to get busy and see how quickly you have a cop car following you around and most likely pulling you over if you have any minor infraction including something simple like not stopping directly on the stop line at a red light.

      If we all benefit, then that means we all benefit. The blacks benefit just as much as the whites. Its ridiculous to try to make any other claim. The only issue I have with black people in general is that many of them love to play the race card every time it suits them. However, just as many of them dislike those that play the race card every time it suits them. You just see more attention given to those that are playing the card.

      I didn’t say my words have no meaning. I said, that if you are basing any knowledge of an individuals views in real life off of what you read from them on the internet then you are border line delusional. On the internet, I can be anything I want to be. On the internet, I can behave however I want to behave. On the internet, I can fuck with whoever I want to fuck with. That doesn’t mean I would ever actually spout off such things in real life. A great deal of it is just to piss people off.

      If you get hurt by what people say then that sucks, but perhaps you should develop a thicker skin because people are going to say a lot of really horrible shit. I’m just a drop in the bucket as compared to some of the stuff I’ve heard and seen.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 7:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @c0rpusdelicti:

      So in short, instead of providing valued and important counter arguments you would rather attack me as being a bad guy and play the victim. Yet, you are trying to say that my assumption that black people enjoy attacking white people as the bad guy and playing the victim is off balanced? Umm, ok, whatever the fuck!

      People like me that call people for their shit are very enlightened. Its people that enjoy judging others (like voting overwhelming to deny their marriage equality in California) while ignoring their own history of being judged that need to see the own shit on their knees. Such people are the true definition of worthlessness regardless of any defining factor that is out of their control.

      Funny, because I post here maybe once a week. I never asked for value. I never demanded value. I never wanted value. I post here to piss people off to get them to confront me so that these posts actually last longer than 4 comments. Excuse me if I don’t like seeing race discussions skipped over every single time QT post an article about them. If I have to play the bad guy that everyone hates to get people to open up about race then I will gladly do it each and every opportunity I get. In the end, its a small price to pay for enlightened comments that come from comments like Kev that probably would have never been made without me being the race baiting asshole that I am.

      Yes, my white privilege that has gotten me to be almost as poor as those people of Appalachia. I sure miss it. You know, my family has been so “white privileged” over the years that when my grandmother had to sell her farm because she was “white privileged” into bankruptcy it sure was great. You are less than fucking human if you think for a second that no white man has ever suffered because all suffering is the complete and utterly property of the black community that hasn’t even suffered nearly as much as the NA people have in this country. You aren’t making your race look very good when you make statements of such stupidity. White privilege is a fucking myth. In the end, it all comes down to the haves versus the have nots. Hell, even in the slavery times, freed black men with money OWNED slaves. Its a fact. Where were you to call out their “white privilege”? Not to mention, the only people that ever sold slaves into the slave trade were BLACK village chieftains that sold their own enemies into slavery. You just love removing that part from the whole slavery fiasco don’t you? I don’t see you calling up their descendants demanding an apology.

      You must have me confused with yourself. I could give a fuck less if anyone actually pays attention to me at all. I could care even less than that if I’m paid attention to or responded to on QT. Apparently, people do pay attention and respond to me, but if they didn’t I wouldn’t give a fuck.

      Yet another tangent of stupidity. You honestly seem to believe that no white person has ever been poor in this country. You seem to overlook poverty unless it happens to black people. You seem to overlook the basic fact that the two poorest areas in this entire country are 1) Appalachia (with an all white population) and 2) Native American reservations of the Wyoming Area (with an all NA population). What both of those have in common are there are no blacks in them. When a woman with 8 kids is forced to live on welfare in the inner city that is not poverty sorry.

      I’m pissed off? News to me. I think you done gone and confused myself with you again. Again with white privilege. You are doing very little if nothing to help your cause of trying to combat what I actually said. You see, the reason us white people have issues with you black people is you overlook poverty in the white community and see only the problems with the black community then when we call that what it is (FUCKING RACISM) you call us racists because god forbid we actually stand up to you fucks that believe in white privilege. Play the victim all you want, it still doesn’t actually make you a victim.

      I thank you for your comments however stupid and misguided and filled with racism they might be. I think you are insane to keep claiming that white privilege has ruined your life. Unless you lived during the time of segregation you have no fucking clue what you are even talking about. I know its easier to blame people like me for why you are either a gang banger, rolled by gang bangers, or jobless, but if you sit back and examine your life you would figure out that excuses are like assholes and not in a good way.

      Oh no, a curse. Hmm, so I guess Wican or Voodoo or whatever is ok in your book of crazy shit. At this moment I’m really hoping you are just being a dumb ass because I didn’t think black people like you actually still existed. Seriously, you are the walking embodiment of a stereotype that really should have died out in the early 1900s or at least by 1960. MLK would look at you and tell you to shut the fuck up and sit down in the back of the bus because if Rosa Parks were anything like you the black community would still be fighting for equal rights.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 7:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jason
      jason

      Racism does exist within the gay community, but it’s random rather than institutional. In other words, it exists to the same extent as it does in the general community.

      As for segregation, gays are famous for sexual segregation. Rather than mixing with the mainstream and insisting on mainstream acceptance, gays are too content to corner themselves away into their own enclaves.

      It’s an entrepreneur’s dream come true. A cornered market is a great chance to make a lot of money.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 7:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @galefan2004:

      I’m not hurt at all. I’m just calling you on your shit.

      And if you’re part Indian all of a sudden (that’s not how you identified yourself in comment #64) maybe you should stop talking about how white people feel, and standing up for our race.

      Frankly you make those of us who ARE white and don’t hold those ignorant attitudes look really bad.

      And for all your complaints about blacks playing the race card the only person in this thread I saw do it was you. Soon as I started poking at your argument all of a sudden you became the most oppressed of all and we’re all living on your land.

      And blacks aren’t discriminated against? I meet lots of boneheads on this side of the border too who think natives are taking us to the cleaners. My advice to you is to open a damn newspaper.

      http://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/raceinc.html
      http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/death-penalty-black-and-white-who-lives-who-dies-who-decides

      Aug 11, 2009 at 7:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • c0rpusdelicti
      c0rpusdelicti [Different person #1 using similar name]

      @galefan2004:

      “White privilege is a fucking myth.”

      “White person takes on the voice of MLK Jr. for the purpose of propagating/justifying their hatred.”

      Every opinion you have is invalid.

      What’s more, a quick Google reveals that you’re not only a race-baiting idiot, but a conservative, chub, WoW/Everquest playing, race-baiting idiot.

      Hah! When I get into an Ivy for grad school over the head of a more qualified white person, I’ll be thinking of you and your impotent rage. And smiling. With at least half a semi.

      Take care of yourself, chum. I’m going to go fuck my pretty white boyfriend. He sometimes calls me Mandingo when I’m hittin’ it just right.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 8:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @c0rpusdelicti:

      except if your white boyfriend is named Mason Wyler. Galefan doen’t like him too much, it seems.

      ah, google searches

      Aug 11, 2009 at 8:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @c0rpusdelicti:
      @Chitown Kev:

      Indeed. It looks like you may have sent him running with his tail between his legs.

      Well done.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 8:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @strumpetwindsock:

      like I said, I don’t have to call galefan2004 anything, he does a good job of that on his own!

      Aug 11, 2009 at 8:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Merv
      Merv

      First of all, I think it’s perfectly legitimate to oppose Affirmative Action. I tend to support it myself, but certainly not every AA program ever devised.

      That being said, I find it interesting that some white people become absolutely unhinged about AA, but don’t seem to be bothered at all by legacy admissions to universities. If the argument against AA is that punishes success and rewards failure, wouldn’t that apply at least as much to legacy admissions?

      Aug 11, 2009 at 8:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RainaWeather
      RainaWeather

      @galefan20024: HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! HAHA!

      Aug 11, 2009 at 9:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Merv:

      Of course, legacy admissions. Interestingly, both GWB and Barack Obama benefitted in college admissions in that way (Barack Obama, Sr. got his MA in Economics from Harvard). Bill Clinton did not.

      Also, there are children from black families that do benefit from legacy admissions; do you think that if they are otherwise qualified, that Sasha and Malia would not be accepted to Colunbia or Harvard.

      I went to high school with a few black kids (back in the 80’s) that were accepted to Ivy League schools on the basis of legacy admissions (they were pretty damn smart too).

      Aug 11, 2009 at 9:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Merv:

      Interstingly, the only affirmative action system that I know of in the world that is based on quotas is India’s

      Aug 11, 2009 at 9:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gtsanity
      gtsanity

      @Ohomo: i have to agree with him gay people tend to be the most racist people i’ve meet

      Aug 11, 2009 at 10:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      Question.

      How many people on here can actually answer the question; that is, is it worse than it’s been for decades. Who on here has been around for decades, exactly?

      Aug 11, 2009 at 10:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitz
      fitz

      @Chitown Kev: I have been around for decades, my son. :) And I am seeing as being worse, yes. The level of dialog has gone downhill. The quickness to jump down someone’s throat is up…. ignorant comments are interpreted as intentional assaults, etc. Failure to agree with the group-think is assumed to be racist. There are raw nerves, and a loss of the ability to engage each other. Aren’t a cheerful old man? lol

      Aug 11, 2009 at 11:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @fitz:

      Group think, ugh!

      I’ve been around for a couple of decades in the gay community. I think (esp. since Prop 8) that it’s more out in the open, I don’t necessarily see it as being any worse only that it’s acknowledged (and unashamed of it if they are).net and Internet boards

      I also think the anonymous nature of the Internet and Internet boards like this has simply revealed what is already there.

      Also, I think it depends on what we’re talking about. Dating and relationships? Certainly, I thnk that interracial relationships are more accepted in the gay community than among straights.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 11:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lex
      Lex

      Gotta love Queerty commenters. For once there’s a positive post with no race baiting and tell us all to freaking get along and some idiot comes in with a nasty troll post about black people to set everyone off(all the while calling black people racist at that LOL). Typical.

      For once I can’t blame Queerty, gotta lay this one on idiotic trolls, and the people who feed them.

      Aug 12, 2009 at 12:01 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Lex:

      Well, I did predict that the comments would be interesting. Although I did feed the troll a bit. Or gave him just enough rope.

      Aug 12, 2009 at 1:18 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hyhybt
      hyhybt

      @Fitz: So, is it racist when someone says “I like Mexican guys” 0r whatever? Only if it’s sexist to say “I like guys.”

      Aug 12, 2009 at 1:48 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • robert
      robert

      Mr Spearman had it about right. chitown kev i love your posts on Queerty and on rod 2.0. Rod 2.0 had some of the same thoughts on this issue and it is predominantly an african american gay blog.

      Aug 12, 2009 at 2:30 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rhydderch
      rhydderch

      @c0rpusdelicti: Holy Crap! He’s a fat ass, a gaming dork and a soap opera junkie. All that anger and rage really makes sense now.

      bless his chubby pathetic heart

      Aug 12, 2009 at 4:17 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rhydderch
      rhydderch

      almost forgot the best part

      http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r301/unpersona/galefan20041.jpg

      Aug 12, 2009 at 4:23 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Qjersey
      Qjersey

      wow 123 comments of 6 people arguing with each other.

      Test out the thesis of the article.

      Go to your local “big gay bar”

      Look around… does the crowd reflect the diversity of your city/town?

      Now try going to a black, asian, or latin bar in your community if one exists? If you are white, what is your experience?

      I had a work colleague, who is black, invite me to meet him for drinks at one of the more popular black gay bars in NYC.

      I walked in (yes I am white), and the entire crowd turned and stared me down. My friend was already there… and he stood up and said “It’s okay y’all, the white boy is with me”

      So in my experience, racism is similar to gender bias…lesbians are treated well unless they enter the bar with gay men… non men of color are suspect in bars that cater to men of color unless you enter with “one of their own.”

      I will also add, that racism in the gay community is fueled by factors that don’t play out as much in the wider society. Black men are valued for supposed sexual attributes, but dissed for economic attributes (the big black hung buck who is also dirt poor…fuck me, but I won’t date you).

      Aug 12, 2009 at 7:14 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • AlwaysGay
      AlwaysGay [Different person #1 using similar name]

      In an earlier post I meant to write “But the white gay men are NOT screaming, it’s racism!”

      Aug 12, 2009 at 7:17 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @AlwaysGay:

      I understood your meaning.

      Aug 12, 2009 at 10:58 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RainaWeather
      RainaWeather

      @hyhybt: It is sexist.

      Aug 12, 2009 at 12:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @rhydderch:

      Now it all makes sense. LOL

      Aug 12, 2009 at 12:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rob
      Rob

      I would just like to thank everyone for not really feeding the trolls “AlwaysGay” and “Galefan2004″, who troll any and every thread about race on Queerty and rarely have anything new, insightful, or intellectually honest to offer. It really is best to not engage them.

      As for my opinion, and keeping it as simple as possible since I’m at work, a lot of “acceptance” in the overall gay community comes from perceived attractiveness, i.e. do I want to have sex with/date/be seen this person. If you’re dealing with a bunch of people who, for whatever reason, don’t find black/latino/asian/etc. men sexually attractive, 9 times out of 10 they’re less likely to be open to any kind of relationship with them, even a platonic one.

      The absurd thing is that a LOT of gay men of all colors ARE attracted to different races, but feel a great deal of social pressure to keep the attraction under wraps for fear of being labeled “snow/rice/dinge queens”. This is why you see so many white gay men cruising online spaces like Adam4Adam looking for black men that they wouldn’t dare talk to in public. In a way, this overall lack of acceptance of diversity within the community is quite sad, and is all of our faults to a certain extent.

      Aug 12, 2009 at 2:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rob
      Rob

      OMG, Galefan lives in Akron, Ohio? I’m FROM there and now live in New York City. That place is a cesspool filled enough race and class issues to write an encyclopedia about, let alone the fact that the economy there is in the toilet even worse than the rest of the country. That you come from Ohio and never escaped explains so very much about the way you think.

      Aug 12, 2009 at 2:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hyhybt
      hyhybt

      @RainaWeather: Are you *sure* you want to claim that all non-bisexuals are sexist?

      Aug 12, 2009 at 3:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Rob:

      Akron is the rubber tire capital of the world.

      All of that rubber particle smudge-laden air obviously affected his mental acuity.

      The damage has been done and it appears that there is little chance for a full recovery…even in New York City! LOL

      Aug 12, 2009 at 3:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • AlwaysGay
      AlwaysGay [Different person #2 using similar name]

      @Rob: All attacks, no substance. Zippo. I’m not going to stand by while gay people are unjustly attacked.

      Aug 12, 2009 at 11:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TikiHead
      TikiHead

      @Rob: Hey now, DEVO comes from Akron. Watch watchoo say!

      Aug 13, 2009 at 12:00 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RainaWeather
      RainaWeather

      @hyhybt: I’m sure. If non-bisexuals aren’t sexist, why do they only sleep with people of a certain sex? I’m not saying this is bad (or good). The word “sexist” has come to have a negative connotation, but that is not always the case.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 12:47 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      “Is Racism Among The Gays (Euroamerican gays at any rate) The Worst It’s Been In Decades?”

      Only at Queerty, which is also infested with straight bigoted ‘allies’ and islamophobes.

      I don’t know of any other blog where they’re tolerated to the degree they are here. Tolerating them, instead of banning them, encourages them.

      ¡Ya basta!

      Racism, misogyny, homohating and the rest are the sole and direct cause of the violence and murders perpetrated against us. No ones free speech should include the right to use those kinds of hatred to promote violence. After the first offense they should be offered robust counseling to cure them of their sociopathic attitudes. Their second offense should be punished with life at hard labor, earning money to compensate victims of hate crimes.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 3:37 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      a) Yes racism is bad and more prevalent today in the gay community. I can say this only from second hand opinions of older gay white and black friends who say so. When i tell them of some of my experiences (ie, the white guy who hung out with me for a month, and then after we had sex said he could not date me because he was just trying to see what having sex with a black guy was like, etc). In that way, it is more complicated. It takes on varied forms. It is not easy to define like straight white racism. But it is there.

      b) I grew up dirty poor (as in no running water poor). I support both affirmative action based on race and economics. Both should play a factor in how people achieve in this country. Poverty is a powerful hinderance but so is race.

      c) This was a pretty good article. I stunned it was at this site.

      d) As a black guy, it is always funny to read people try to stereotype my race. Part of it is because I have to address my own baggage over race. But I think I have gotten really good at that.

      I am a black geek who favored Edwards (yes, to my ever lovin’ embarassment now because he was the only one talking about confronting the establishment directly). I am also someone who finds racial issues complicated. Some things are race. Some things are not. It is rarely easy to come up with a one size fit all in this society on that subject. It took me a while to realize, for example, that the birthers were basically racists until I started to listen to the crazies.

      e) A Gold Star to Kev- I don’t agree with everything he posts here. Indeed, I probably on agree with half. But, I appreciate the individuality.

      f) Whether being attracted to a particular race is a good thing comes down to why you are attracted to them. Is it solely as a sex object or are they dateable? Do you want them dumb? Yes, I have dated guys who had a problem with the fact that I am extremely intelligent. In my 20s I used to try to hide this because they could not deal with it.

      In my 20s, I had some self hate going on so I was more attracted to white guys because I could not accept that race was a factor in my mind.

      Now, I would say I am equal opportunity, but find myself more and more attracted to other people of color. But not by much. For me, because I am so open to race differences, It comes down to who shares my values (ie, wanting to have kids, wanting monogamy), who shares my taste in sex , et. race is less a factor than it has ever been in my entire life. Right now for example I have this huge crush on this Pakistanian guy because he’s a chemist but totally supersitutios about everything.

      g) Again, thanks for the thread. i read most of the comments. Everyone responded to the idiot factor well. Id on’t expect to totally eliminate the idiot factor but it is good to see others say the racists are idiots.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 4:12 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • voltairine
      voltairine

      Most racist whites can’t tell the difference between a black man and a nigga. They have never met black doctors, lawyers, accountants. They don’t know these people exist and if you told them, they wouldn’t believe you anyway. They can tell the difference between white people and white trash; shame they can not do this with other races. They see someone black and flash to their parents’ white flight from degenerating cities in the 70s, the hostile panhandler who threatens them for money at the bus stop, the gauntlet of obnoxious, foul mouthed, in-yo-face crack whores by the train station. Self-segregation by black professionals does not help this, and neither does black identification with the stereotypical hip-hop, ghetto lifestyle.

      I laugh when I see ghetto people wearing Obama T-shirts and baseball caps. They think they got one of “their own” in the White House — like he’s just like them, like he’s one of them. He was never one of them. If he had been, he’d never have gotten to Harvard at all, let alone become the editor of the Harvard Law Review. If he’d ever gone to public grade school on the South Side of Chicago, his fellow black students would have beat his ass to death for being too “white.” That’s what they do to kids who talk like white kids. But being too “white” is how Obama got where he is (so what is that, “too white” — going to school? staying in school? reading books for learning AND enjoyment? going to college?) — isn’t it? Why is it “white” to do those things, and why is that seen as negative? With that the case, no wonder there’s black self-hate.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 6:59 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rob
      Rob

      @voltairine: I appreciate what you were attempting to articulate, but, just…no.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 10:08 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @The Gay Numbers:

      Thanks for the compliment Numbers. Nor should we agree on everything.

      I support affirmative action based on both race and economics also. But I also had the experience of going to high school with mostly with black middle and upper middle class kids (complete with the BMW’s in the pkg. lot). I saw first hand how economic advantage can, in some instances, trump race (I had to work on that bougie resentment thing).

      I’m at work, so I can’t respond at great length but…yeah, on the dating thing, we are very similar. Although, I think my tendency is to be attracted to some form of …weirdness or quirk or something that just sticks out or I wouldn’t expect.

      @voltairine: Oh, boy, the class question in black communities…let’s not open up that can of worms, PLEASE!

      For that matter, let’s not open up the class question (which intersects with the race question) as it concerns gay communities.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 11:42 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @Chitown Kev:

      Yeah, I guess we should actually speak about the topic, eh?

      I’d say it’s worse. Actually worse in some ways (there is more of it) and better in some (More people speak openly against it).
      On a positive note, I think when there is a wave of social change things can get worse before they get better.

      But up here it involves white, native, and to a lesser degree immigrant (Asian/Indian) communities. The black communities don’t really figure into it unless you are in larger cities or down east, so it’s not really relevant to your discussion here.

      Plus, I have seen and experienced some, but I am sure there is a lot I do not see.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 12:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      Re Class IS the biggest issue in the gay community

      I would say bigger than race is the class problem. There are way too many gay people, at least in the “fashionable gay” part, that want to pretend lower income gay people do not exist.

      The problem with this situation comes up in issues like ENDA, marriage equality and issues that are not even being discussed like – just economic survival and how sexual orientation impacts that. Take marriage equality- as Kathy Griffith so easily demonstrated- marriage inequality leads to situation in which a working class gay man can not put his boyfriend on his insurance, and thus, the boyfriend, who is losing the ability walk, is placed in a dire situation. That’s the real issue here- the hidden affects of homophobia on economic outcome. We do not discuss that, ever.

      Instead we have the rich gays defining the debate. Someone along the thread says people have identitied gays with being white. That’s true- but that’s because white gay men wanted it that way. I would add to that people identity gay as rich too.

      Why? because rich gay men want it that way. The perceptions of us are so narrow because they control the narrative.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 12:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @The Gay Numbers:

      You know, there is an intersting thread about the health insurance issue at another of the blogs right now.

      Add to that, the question of HIV status and the economic effects of homophobia and cuts in HIV services nationwide. You know, gays are being hit by the recession, too. There are quite a few gays working in the car plants in the Detroit area that got laid off and are catching HELL!

      All these LGBT social services and businesses closing down but some in the community seems to want spend all the money on getting a word (albeit an important one) in California.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 12:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @The Gay Numbers:

      Let’s add to that, gender inequities. Men make more than women, period. And that applied to the gay community, too.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 12:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @c0rpusdelicti: You honestly think I give a fuck what you think? Good for you, you have a white boyfriend? Doesn’t that just mean that even you can’t stand other fellow black people? You know how to use Google. Good for you again. If you knew much of anything you would know I don’t live my life with shame or feel anything to hide. I’m proud of who and what I am. So, when you fuck your “pretty white boyfriend” do you ever stop to ask yourself why a black man just wasn’t acceptable enough for you to date but you still feel they are completely “equal”. Affirmative action is on its way out so enjoy it while you can, and enjoy your “ivy league” education as well. Just don’t make the mistake that being an “ivy league” black man that won’t even date other black men makes you qualified to judge others.

      BTW, I have no fucking clue how you got that I’m conservative because nothing could be farther from the truth. The rest of it was pretty much dead on.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 12:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @strumpetwindsock: Believe it or not, I don’t live here to post all day every day. Am I supposed to be ashamed for how I think, feel or act? You don’t know me very well if you think that. I don’t like Mason Wyler because he decided to fake a rape story about an armed forces officer as a publicity stunt. I find that kind of annoying. Everyone should find that kind of annoying.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 12:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Chitown Kev: I still feel honored you guys decided to google me like its some big fucking deal. Would have been easier to straight out ask me just about anything. Unlike some of you people, I have NOTHING to hide. I never have hidden anything, and I never will hide anything. Overt honesty just offends most people, but I don’t give a fuck.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 12:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @RainaWeather: Again bitch, I’m honored to have stalkers, but you guys are out of your fucking minds if you think I got “schooled” because some dude knows how to do a google search. You ASSUME that I’m ashamed of any aspect of who I am, and that is simply not the fucking case. Its funny to me that the same person that felt the need to “attack” me also felt the need to brag about his “pretty white” boyfriend. He basically makes the statement that he has a white boyfriend as a way of legitimizing his own self-worth. As if he is saying that because he dates a white guy his boyfriend is better than any black guy, and of course because he is black you just kiss his ass anyways although that entire sentiment is about as racist as you can possibly get.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 12:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Chitown Kev: You have to have shame in what you are doing to hang yourself honey. I have no shame in anything I think or say. If you do then that is your problem.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 12:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @rhydderch: Am I, according to you, supposed to be ashamed of what I look like? I’m not, but good for you for thinking that I should be.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 1:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @The Gay Numbers:

      Moving right along…

      That’s what made me so angry at Jasmyne Cannick’s post Prop 8 column. There are many low-income gay couples (of all races) with children who could really use the protections of marriage for their families. Marriage is not simply for rich (white) gays, though I agree with that they have defined the debate to this point.

      What is that stat I run across every so often, that the highest concentration of gay and lesbian couples with children is in the Bronx?

      Aug 13, 2009 at 1:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @voltairine: You seem to speak a truth that no one is willing to listen to. They just attack us when we try to point out the own shit on their knees, so its honestly just not worth pointing out.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 1:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @The Gay Numbers: They don’t want to pretend they don’t exist. Upper middle class people from upper middle class backgrounds rarely want to pretend that lower class people don’t exist. Their attitudes towards them range from judgment to condemnation, but they never forget they exist.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 1:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @Chitown Kev: I can’t get angry at Jasmyne Cannick because that would be like getting anry at Ann Coulter. That’s time I can never get back. So, I just try to ignore her and Coulter since what they value most is our attention.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 1:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @galefan2004:

      http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=galefan2004&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&fp=1d3438fbc28dc0ec

      There is a link for all you people that actually want to judge me based off of my google search results. I figured I’d just make it easier for you. By the way, I’ve gone through all of it and there is no shame in any of it, so I really still don’t give a fuck what you all think.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 1:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Chitown Kev: Actually, marriage is the last thing you want to get into when you are low income. It changes so many laws, and none of them really benefit you. If you know how to legally work the system then you are better off just living together. That is why you see so many low income people simply co-habitating without getting married. As soon as you get married you go from having two separate incomes in the household (and low income programs viewing you separately) to having a joint income (and losing out on programs because your joint income is to high).

      Aug 13, 2009 at 1:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @galefan2004:

      That would depend on whether you have kids or not AND there’s the insurance coverage question to consider.

      There is some truth to what you say, though, after all, the dometic partnership laws in California also cover all couples over the age of 62 who would otherwise lose benefits if they were to marry.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 1:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Chitown Kev:
      “domestic”

      Aug 13, 2009 at 1:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @voltairine:

      “That’s what they do to kids who talk like white kids.”

      Yep. That can go well into adulthood, actually. Nowadays, I just tell people that I talk like my mother. Which I do.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 1:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Chitown Kev: Actually, if you have kids its an even bigger incentive because single mothers get a great deal of help from many programs that don’t even consider helping married mothers. Its a grand system we have to deal with when they welfare and charity system encourages women to stay pregnant and unmarried.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 1:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Chitown Kev: Are you saying your mother is white? Not that there is ANYTHING wrong with that. I’m just curious. Without trying to sound like a racist ass, which I normally fail at doing, what I can say is that I would think it would be incredibly hard for a biracial child to try to cope with the two different worlds. We have switched from a nation of forced segregation to a nation of self separatism, but we still haven’t come together in many areas.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 1:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @galefan2004:

      That’s the last thing a few of the gay couples with children (and that includes male and female couples) want, sorry to break it to you.

      No, my mother is very much a black woman.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 1:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @galefan2004:

      My stepdad is extremely “well spoken” (as they say) as well.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 2:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @galefan2004:

      Overt honesty?

      You try to give me shit for not agreeing with you and not standing up for my white race, then the moment I challenge you you suddenly turn native?

      You admit (#90) you say ridiculous stuff online that you would never say in real life, and that you say it just to piss people off because it makes you feel good (at least that last part is honest).

      And you even claim (#102) that you agree with some writers’ (Kev’s) enlightened comments and that you’re just playing the facilitator by being such a jerk.

      So? Do you agree with him or not? Because if so then you agree all your “jerk” comments are just nonsense. And again… things would be a bit easier if you just posted an “I am a fucking clown” disclaimer so we souldn’t have to waste our time.

      Because I don’t think any of us needs your help expressing our opinions.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 2:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @Chitown Kev:

      BTW, I’m quite sure I told you the interesting story of my friend who discovered she was part black when her mother died. Did I?

      Aug 13, 2009 at 2:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Chitown Kev: I wasn’t really talking about gay couples at that junction. I was talking about straight couples. I guess its hard for me to wrap my head around marriage when it comes gay couples in general. I’m from Ohio, I’ll be dead before this state legalizes gay marriage.

      God I hate the term well spoken. Seriously, using the English language correctly should not be “well spoken”. It is just a sign of intelligence when you can actually speak correctly. I know what you are saying, but it kind of sucks that “well spoken” has almost a connotation of negativity to it. Your mom and step-dad are just very intelligent people that like to convey that. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with the fact that you like to speak intelligently either.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 2:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @strumpetwindsock:

      No, you didn’t.

      Now that galesfan is attempting to talk about class issues, he is starting to make some sense. Minus the “welfare queen” garbage, of course.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 2:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @galefan2004:

      True (the bit about well-spoken language).

      Aug 13, 2009 at 2:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @strumpetwindsock: I didn’t suddenly turn native. I was born that way. I tried to give you shit because I tried to give you shit on just about everything. People that have read more than one post of mine know that I exist on this internet to give people shit.

      Its because online its fun to piss people off. In real life, I’m not going to say shit just to piss people off. In real life, I actually try to go out of my way to help people. I also have many black friends (yeah yeah its a typical response) and if we do discuss race its in an open and honest fashion. Online its funner to just piss people off though.

      I think Kev and every other commenter here are very intelligent people that probably would think nothing about not sharing their actual views on the subject of race without someone pissing them off enough to talk openly about it. This thread was absolutely dead when I got here.

      I think its obvious that I’m a fucking clown should be my official disclaimer in any and all of my posts. Hell, there is an entire google of them that all basically come across the same way. Honestly, in reality, I think that judging anyone for anything that is out of their control (from being a fat ass to being black) is pathetic and weak. I think that both sides of almost every judgment CAN be pathetic and weak. However, I would not be who I am today (in real life not the internet clown) if it wasn’t for people from every background that were willing to influence my life in a positive manner.

      Funny how this place is normally dead when I’m not here. Believe it or not, I do actually read this forum without posting on it quite a bit. When I don’t post its normally a dead forum. When I post my internet stupidity it turns a thread that would have been 10 replies into over 100.

      My internet persona for the last 5 years has been to shock and annoy pretty much everyone. That is the only real fun I have on the internet. When you piss people off its amazing how they respond. Hearing all positive comments every single moment of every single day is ANNOYING.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 2:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @galefan2004:

      Obama was hit with a lot of that class envy by the black community here in Chicago too.

      But you know…

      Some years ago, I worked in a fast food joint and one of my co-workers was from Amsterdam. I told him the “talking white” story.

      He said that he pretty much went through the exact same teasing and taunting when his family moved from Amsterdam to a smaller town in the Netherlands.

      In short, it’s not a race issue at all. It’s a culture issue and it happens everywhere.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 2:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @Chitown Kev:

      Yeah, I agree. I am more than happy to have a real conversation with him.

      But my friend…

      This was about a decade ago. She went down east to her mother’s funeral in Toronto, and to her surprise some relatives from the states showed up who were black. She had never heard of them, and had no idea that she was anything other than white.

      It seems that in her maternal grandmother’s family all the girls were fair-skinned, and all the boys darker. Not by any conspiracy – it just happened – all the girls stayed in Canada and passed as white, and all the boys moved to the states and passed as black. For some reason (not a fight, or feud) they broke all ties and never told the next generation about their heritage. At least my friend had no inkling until the funeral.

      Strange, eh? I know there is a lot of stuff around “passing”, but here it is more in the native and metis (half-blood) community.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 2:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Chitown Kev: I never used the term welfare queen. I never implied the term welfare queen. What I said is that this SYSTEM encourages people to be unwed and pregnant. That is a fact. You jumped from that to people that want to take advantage of the system are unwed and pregnant. I never made that claim what-so-fucking-ever. No one actually wants to be on welfare. The stigma of it sucks. Most are there because they simply happened into it or they were raised on it and because the system is set up to keep you on it for life once you are on it to start with they simply end up on it.

      THE SYSTEM NEEDS CHANGED. I don’t really get into blaming the victim for the the problems in the system. I will never blame illegals for the people that brought them here to exploit their labor. I will never blame the poor for a system that is set up to keep the rich rich and the poor poor. Maybe if we extend AA to the poor then the system will start to change. However, when half the country looks at Obama’s attempts to help the working poor as killing grannies and extending socialism it will be interesting to see if anything at all is ever accomplished.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 2:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @strumpetwindsock: This reminds me of my great aunt (who is dead now) that refused to help the family in the search for our ancestry because she was afraid that they would find that we had blacks in the family.

      My family is ape shit crazy racist. I actually try to portray my stupidity on the topic openly and that often gets me labeled as being racist. Its not by intent. I don’t look at a person and think they are lesser because they are of any ascribed status. I just know what I have experience, and its nice to see people like Kev that put me in my place on my stupidity in such a light that it actually makes sense.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 2:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      Terms like class envy implies the poor are not being screwed by the rich. A hint: people don’t have time with class envy when they are poor. President Obama is attacked for the fact that he identifies to much with the wealthy who are trying to screw the poor. That much can be seen in much of his present predisposition. When people looked at FDR, no one thought- oh, I am angry over his wealth because FDR was a populist fighting for economic equality. The same with LBJ. It is not about being envious of wealth that drives debates. It is being angry over being screwed over and having someone identity with the wealthy rather than the poor.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 4:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @The Gay Numbers:

      Well, that was then, in the mid-90’s up through the prsidential primaries (and even then, the right tried to paint him with the elitest label) A lot of that had to do with the tensions between the (poorer) black community on the southside and the University of Chicago. Truth be told, yes, there are a quite a few black critics of Obama right now for that very reason and I am so unsurprised about that.

      I don’t think Obama will get as much of the black vote in 2012 as Bill Clinton did in 1996 but….don’t tell anyone I said that.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 5:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @The Gay Numbers: I’ll respectfully disagree. I think that the poor are just trying to get through their daily lives. They really don’t envy the rich because as long as they can survive they are happy. On the flip side, the rich seem to have more problems than the poor as they learn that money can buy anything but true happiness.

      Its a millennial old debate, and it will last another millennium, but honestly, I think what matters in the end is rather you are happy or not regardless of how much money you have.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 5:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Chitown Kev: See, this is interesting to me, because (I’m probably misinformed as usual and I’m going to try something new like not sounding like an asshat) I’ve always worried exactly what is going to happen if Obama doesn’t at least do two terms and end up successful. I hate to say that stereotypical asshats that paint with too broad a brush are more likely to not vote for another black president if Obama fails, but it seems to me that might be an issue. I’m just hoping Obama succeeds. He seems much more interested in helping the poor than Bush ever was. As someone with a boyfriend that has to wait 2 months to see a doctor at a free clinic even when he has health problems because he can’t afford insurance and can’t get on medicaid, I do have to say that I hope health coverage gets passed.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 5:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @galefan2004: if we were still ma and pa living on a farm- then your comments might make sense. but as I tell any libertarian we do not live on the farm any more where we barter down at the local store . We live in a globalized economy with multinational corporations that are often more powerful than governments because they are the power behind governments that no one realizes quite often is there. Take china for example. that country like russia is run by oligarchs in terms of busines and economic outcomes. people seem to not get that’s where the us is headed.

      Now, the point I was making is about power to influence people’s lives in ways we do not think about. for example, the healthcare debate is mostly shaped by people who are poor who don’t have time to realize they are being manipulated by wealthy people telling them stupid shit like our system is the best in the world when it is actually 38th (that’s right 38th) in terms of cost versus outcomes. Or, you have an education system that is expensive even at the community college level (i Know this because right now I am helping my sister pay her college tuition), and on and on. All of which is about dumping costs onto the poor that no other developed country besides the U.S. expects them to take. So when I am talking about these things I am talking not moralistic bullshit but real world – what can help or hurt outcomes type discussions.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 5:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @Chitown Kev: I have no idea what way people will vote. It really on some level does not matter with regard to the deeper truth.

      The deeper truth to me is not about what manipulations the Rush Limbaugh set is trying to exert over conversations in which they act like the everyman while sipping Cristal and making 100 mil every 10 years.

      The deeper truth is what policies he has and what they mean for low income people. On that front, I say he is an elitist in many ways. He identifies to much with the wealthy at the expense of those who are not. Yes, he will put bandages on situations, but he does not have the populist impulse like either FDR or LBj, who both again were wealthy. Ultimately it’s not about biography or racial background- it’s about what policies one creates and how they relate back to the people they are supposed to help.

      don’t get me wrong. He’s 100 times better than the any Republican, but as Bill Maher said, we have a choice between the right of center party (whom Obama represents) and the totally (my paraphrase) ape throwing poo while burning down the house party. So, by comparison he’s great, but that comparison only works until you realize how fucked we are compared to say Japan, which pays 7 percent of GDP to healthcare while we pay 15 percent. Do you know how much money that is we are wasting and directly transferring to the ultra wealthy in this coutnry? it’s fucking nuts. but no one gets it.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 5:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @The Gay Numbers: What you don’t get is that those multi-national companies don’t have as much power as you think they do. You see, its always the consumer that has the power and those companies do everything they can to influence the consumer in a positive light. Even in China, the country is ran by what the American consumer thinks. Oh, and I’m sure you didn’t mean to sound condescending to farmers, but at least farmers managed to keep their jobs through this economic melt down. The same can’t be said for many of those multinational corporations.

      I don’t agree with you at all. I don’t think its shaped by people that are truly poor. People that truly poor normally feel disenfranchised and as a result don’t get very involved in politics at all. Hell, many of them don’t even vote. Its shaped by right wing crazy lunatics that you wish to god were poor but are normally from families with money even if they personally don’t have it.

      You don’t have to tell me college is expensive. I wracked up $20,000 in student loans to get my Bachelor’s degree. However, if our institutions are so incredibly bad then why do so many people send their kids to study in the United States? Could colleges be cheaper? Sure, however, the United States educational system on the college level remains one of the best in the world.

      You are looking at the world in terms of material possessions and money. The majority of poor people simply can’t afford to do that. What I said has absolutely nothing to do with “moralistic value” in any way. It had to do with survival strategy. Poor people in this country do not get rich 99.9% of the time. The status you were born into in this country is more than likely the status you will die in, and sometimes just accepting that and living your life anyways is just a way to survive.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 5:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @The Gay Numbers:

      Oh, Obama IS an elitist in many ways, we agree on that. That’s why his appeal to the religious is (to me, as a Chicagoian) somewhat surprising, then again not so surprising, and kind of phony, actually. Obama uses it for populist appeal. Now the bitter and holding on to their guns and religion comment that he made in SF? That is the real Obama.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 5:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @galefan2004: I am not going to address much of what yous ay because it is factually in accurate. One example: that people still send their children here to become educated. They don’t. They send them here for status of being the remaining superpower. If they want their children educated they send them to Europe or some other place. They also domestically building up their educational systems across the world. What you describe is our hubris that we ignore how we are destroying the system by claiming it is the best. No superpower remains powerful by doing what we are doing to burn the house down. I was no disparaging farmers. I was making an analogy about economic system , and when and where such thing works. If we were living in agrarian society much of what you say would make more sense, but outside of that context, it is just nuts.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 5:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @Chitown Kev: I don’t care that President obama is an elitist. FDR and LBJ were elitists. The question is elistist to what end. If he were creating politcies that truly benefited the middle and lower classes, then he can drop as manhy preachers as he wants. It only matters because it serves as more evidence of a greater point about core values he is willing to uphold. The jury is still out on that. he seems a lot like bill clinton. He spent his whole life trying to convince nasty people to like him , and so that’s all he is at this point. I hope I am wrong, but everything I read keeps making me think “lord we have another clinton on our hands.”

      Aug 13, 2009 at 6:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      47 comments out of a total of 180 comments. That’s a total of twenty-six percent.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 6:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @The Gay Numbers:

      Oh, I get you. Although I would say that if Obama were truly creating those policies, then he would have no need for the preachers?

      Aug 13, 2009 at 6:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JNYCA
      JNYCA

      Wow.

      This is very interesting. I noted that someone made the claim that because the internet is anonymous, people are more honest. I wonder….or does it just encourage people to be more over the top?

      Racism in general is really surprising lately, and bigotry. I guess I didn’t realize it was so prevalent until Obama was winning the presidential race. I still can’t decide if we tossed political correctness out the window, or if we, as a population, have become increasingly more intolerant. (or both?) But it does seem like these issues are stirring up really strong feelings. I find it all a bit scary.

      The anger and frustration expressed in a lot of these comments is surprising.

      We can obviously all make claims, and generalize about this race or that race. But….As a rule, I think judging an individual as an individual is really the key. Shouldn’t that be the point? I mean as gay men and women, I assume we all want to be seen as ourselves, and not just lumped in with this generalized idea of what being gay is…..so it should sort of be the same for race…I would assume that because we obviously belong to a minority….that, that would lead us to be more understanding of other minorities, but I guess that’s not the case. It feels like everyone has their own idea of what’s best for everyone…

      You like what you like. There is no “correct” choice. What more is there to say than that?

      Aug 13, 2009 at 6:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @JNYCA: Your comment is so incredibly lazy I do not even know where begin. Let me just say the part that always gets me is where people try to be so relative that they are ultimately saying nothing. No, not all attractions are equal and not all of them are healthy as to how people approach them. So liking what you like is not enough. It does matter why and how. The person who is a sociapath in their treatment of others may indeed like what they like for their reasons, but the underlying reasons are not always healthy. A white guy who likes black men because they think they can control black men because they see black men as inferior is not the same as a white guy who is attracted to black men for aesthetic reason, and yet, they both can claim they are attracted to black men. Under the way you frame attraction, both me are the same. There is no “correct choice.” NEver mind one of the choices is inheritly destructive. Really lazy comment.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 7:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @Chitown Kev: What you say is true. Politics has become on both sides a game of ‘What’s the Matter with Kansas?” A game of poltical distraction. It’s always been the case that this is true, but to some degree this is the entirety of politics these days. so, we worry about President obama’s biography more than his positions to the exclusion in fact of policy. We worry more about demonizing President Bush rather than saying his policies were evil because ultimately to me , Bush, the man is not as impotant as the evil of his policies. But we as a country do not think like say the Europeans as much about policies. I am not saying the Europeans do not think of personality. They do. But it seems to have less of an impact as they also seem to have a better social net.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 7:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @The Gay Numbers:

      An idea: maybe the whole idea of the overpowering personality of a leader (which equals the “biography”) went out of style in Europe with the dissolution of monarchies (with some exceptions, Berulsconi may be one exception that’s living).

      Aug 13, 2009 at 7:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @Chitown Kev: History is probably a big chunk of it. Americans have not as a country been through dictatorships, and they are not as a rule comfortable with comparising themselves to other countries. So, for example, you ave the collective delusion that we have the best healthcare system in the world when it is actually ranked 38th.

      Aug 13, 2009 at 9:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @Chitown Kev:
      I don’t think that will ever go out of style anywhere.

      But even in the days when kings and queens were in vogue many of them didn’t enjoy the luxury of being the centre of a cult of personality.

      Aug 14, 2009 at 12:23 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @strumpetwindsock:

      But kings and queens were there by divine mandate, at least according to the prevailing doctrines of the time. It’s not a coincidence that the decline of powerful monarchies in Europe happens at the same time that the decline of religious belief begins.

      Aug 14, 2009 at 11:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Chitown Kev:

      Let me add, not that the cult of leadership doen’t still happen, heck, you have Hitler, Mussolini, Churchill, etc.

      But I guess I am saying that religion ceased to be a significant…opiate to the masses with the decline of monarchy.

      Aug 14, 2009 at 11:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @Chitown Kev:

      True, though there were definitely some monarchs who had the juice and others who did not (and some, like Richard II, who got it quite suddenly, let it go to his head, then lost it terribly).

      In reality the public sentiment towards the monarch could be anywhere from fear to hatred to worship to the same feeling you or I might have for the local sports team – especially in times when no one family or person had clear title to the throne.

      Even Elizabeth I was loved on the one hand, but scandalized those same worshippers with her loose sexual behaviour.

      I think you are right about religion, though interestingly (in England and France at least) the monarchies only began to reach that apex of power around the same time as they started to lose it. There was always competition with other religions, and paganism.

      Plus, I think the English monarchy is unique in that they developed a parliament and ended absolutism fairly early on. It was tied in with religion of course (absolutism was and is equated with catholicism) but not exclusively so.

      Likewise, I think English protestantism deflected a lot of anti-religious flak because of its anti-popery raison d’etre.
      And it’s interesting that the closest the English protestants had to the taliban – the Puritans – actually did things like take marriage out of the church’s hands and make it completely secular (they also banned Christmas, which was probably part of the reason they brought back the King after Cromwell’s death).

      By contrast the French Revolution was as much a backlash against the church as it was against the monarchy. And frankly, a lot of the criticism against the king was just a matter of perception. The government debt was seen as his personal debt, whereas in Britain it was seen as the public debt. Again, the fact that parliament was seen as the real power made a big difference.

      Aug 15, 2009 at 1:37 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • will clemens
      will clemens

      I have to be honest I am racist, but I have only been racist for the few yrs . I wasnt until I found ourtt how many blacks liturally hate us.

      Oct 10, 2009 at 5:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Misty
      Misty

      @galefan2004: Painting a broad brush, are we not. As if there are no GAY blacks (Little Richard anyone?) And what it said was that gay racism EXIST. that’s it. Not that all gays (as if gays are only white people) are racists. And NOT all blacks are homophobes. YOU just proved the point the writer was making about gay racism.

      Mar 12, 2012 at 10:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Misty
      Misty

      @Chitown Kev: I actually do think so.

      Mar 13, 2012 at 12:37 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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