Gerald Schoenewolf is a psychoanalyst (that’s the Freud-based branch of psychology) in New York, where he’s been practicing for 30-years. He is the founder of The Living Center, a psychoanalytic group that “offers eclectic psychotherapy. This means we use whatever method works with a particular patient. Hence, therapy may involve psychoanalysis, cognitive or behavioral approaches.” Lovely stuff. But what has us curious about Mr. Schoenewolf are his “subspecialties,” which “include the treatment of conflicted couples and psychotherapy with homosexuals who want to be heterosexual.” And that he’s been blogging about them. Things that make you go hmmmm?
“Not everyone who is gay is happy about being gay, and some gays feel deeply conflicted about it,” Schoenewolf writes. “Such gays often go into psychotherapy in order to talk about this issue and work through the conflicts that prevent them from being straight. This is nothing new.”
He’s right. This is nothing new! Enter the new part: “What is new is that in recent years the gay rights movement has taken offense at this form of psychotherapy. They gay rights movement is demanding that sexual reorientation therapy be banned and that psychotherapists be prevented from assisting gays or bisexuals who want to be straight. They have even pressured the American Psychological Association to pass new ethical rules regarding this issue.”
Alas, there is no way to “ban” a certain type of treatment. All the lobbying in the world can never get Congress to pass a law that forbids this therapy, nor does getting the APA to come out against it mean all the world’s psychologists will adhere to the rules. But at least he understands why gay groups are so critical of the therapy: “The movement claims that helping a homosexual to become heterosexual is giving into societal bias. It says if someone is gay, a psychotherapist should help him to accept his homosexuality. They even claim that sexual reorientation therapy is a form of brainwashing that may do harm to the patient. (I have occasionally done reorientation therapy and never brainwashed anybody; actually it is the gay rights movement, in my opinion, that is doing the brainwashing.)”
How about we take this to the next level?
Our newsletter is like a refreshing cocktail (or mocktail) of LGBTQ+ entertainment and pop culture, served up with a side of eye-candy.
And the gay rights movement is militant!
The movement has been protesting and pressuring professional organizations for many years. In 1977, a group of gay psychiatrists broke into a meeting of the American Psychiatry Association and verbally harassed a panel of psychiatrists who were discussing the next manual of mental disorders. This group of radicals demanded that homosexuality be taken out of the category of sexual disorders. It was later done. The movement similarly pressured the American Psychological Association, the American Psychoanalytic Association and other organizations to normalize homosexuality. Soon nearly all professional organizations fell into step.
The movement didn’t stop there. In the 1990s it joined transvestites and transsexuals in pressuring the APA to normalize transvestism and transexualism. Eventually, the gay rights movement became so influential that it seemingly turned the APA into a gay rights advocacy organization. Now the movement wants the APA to ban sexual reorientation therapy. I believe the movement has gone too far and has become too controlling.
In fact, gays who have gone through sexual reorientation therapy—and many such cases have been documented—have now formed a group to protest what they see as prejudice against them by the gay rights people and their publications. “What about our rights to get help in changing our sexual reorientation?” they complain.
This is a curious observation from a man who, arguably, can wield much control over his own patients, but nobody goes around saying the field of psychology wields too much control over our brains. (Okay, our mother does.)
And just like a bigot who gets to fall back on his “but I have gay friends” line, Schoenewolf has a roster of patients to back up his theory: “Over the years a number of gays (usually with strong bisexual features) have come to my office for treatment specifically because they wanted to be straight. They wanted to make love to a woman, have a family and live a straight lifestyle. What was I supposed to say? ‘Sorry, you’re only allowed to be gay!'”
Without question, Schoenewolf is much more trained in psychology than anyone at this website — and our own combined years on the couch don’t count. But something always sounds off-putting about a trained therapist counseling men that, if they try hard enough, they can abandon the “lifestyle” they were born into. Much of therapy is about identifying problems and conflicts and finding solutions and resolutions; in psychotherapy, much of that work is done by examining your childhood and the family unit.
Which begs the question: Is the problem that these men desire to live a “straight lifestyle,” or that they’ve been prompted to feel so much shame about their homosexual leanings that going hetero feels like the only option?
Tommy Marx
Personally, I don’t care what anyone does. But this quote – “Over the years a number of gays (usually with strong bisexual features) have come to my office for treatment specifically because they wanted to be straight. They wanted to make love to a woman, have a family and live a straight lifestyle.” – intrigues me. If a bisexual man wants to make love to a woman, have a family and live a straight lifestyle, what’s stopping him? If it’s so incredibly hard for a man not to be attracted emotionally, physically, spirituatlly to another man, doesn’t that sound like the problem has nothing to do with anything natural and everything to do with forcing a square peg into a triangular hole? And as for those who complain about how horrible the gay lifestyle is – all the partying and cruising and crap – um, does anyone really believe that even 20% of gay men do that on a regular basis? The last couple of times I even stepped foot in a gay bar was because a straight female friend of mine wanted to go. I have nothing against those who enjoy that kind of thing, but since I don’t enjoy it personally, I don’t try to change my sexuality, for fuck’s sake, I just don’t go to gay bars.
KinkyKamikaze
I still agree with those who want to ban the treatment, nothing good can come out of this.
They should focus on helping the patient feel comfortable in the “situation” instead of trying to “cure” or repress the emotions.
It’s like doing plastic surgery on people that are addicted by it or stomach pump 12-year-old girls for “food poisoning” (too much ice-cream)
This is in the same field as the “pro-ana” people. Which is Ironic given how many of the fags are pro-ana.
adamblast
Here’s where I get especially confused: We’re supposed to tell gay men who want to be straight that 1) it generally can’t be done, 2) it’s damaging in the extreme to try and 3) you need to accept yourself as you are.
And yet, we’re suppposed to tell men who want to be women (or vise-versa) the exact opposite? And people who think they need to accept themselves *as is* are gender fascists?
Something doesn’t compute.
terrwill
There is no treatment to “cure” us of being Gay. I had no more choice being Gay than I did having blue eyes or blonde hair. What compells these people to cast so much hate upon a community which affects them in zero ways??? Follow any “Ex-Gay” for a month and I guarantee you the trail will lead to a cruise area where you will find the “Ex-Gay” getting barebacked by some anonymous troll.
No. 1 · Tommy Marx: It all depends on the type of bar you frequent. Some are nothing but cruise bars, some are S & M bars (two kinds of those: leather and Stand & Model : P ) However there are some local bars where one can truly find a “Cheers” type atmosphere of friendly guys and sometimes ladies who simply want to socialize in a friendley setting. They exist and are worth seeking out…………
Ironyman
The core sign of fraud and bias in Schoenewolf’s position lies in the way he misrepresents human sexuality –
“”Over the years a number of gays (usually with strong bisexual features) have come to my office for treatment specifically because they wanted to be straight.”
Someone with strong bisexual features is bisexual, not gay. Any person with strong bisexual features that he has worked with, and who has gone on to “make love to a woman, have a family and live a straight lifestyle.” has not changed from gay to straight, they’ve simply chosen to act on only their hetero-erotic attractions.
His license should be pulled.
Ironyman
Adamblast
you are confused because you are confusing apples with oranges.
Sexual orientation is different from gender and gender identity.
terrwill
No. 6 · Ironyman: Its ironic that you were able to solve that matter of irony! : P Seriously hopefully you prevented a whole lot of shit by not getting the trans communities panties all bunched up real tight first thing in the new year……..
adamblast
Of course they’re different. Still it seems more like socio-political convenience than science to claim that those who hate their orientation should be counseled toward acceptance and those who hate their gender should not.
David Ehrenstein
He’s a quack. End of story.
Tommy Marx
@Adamblast
I think you’re actually hurting your own argument.
The truth about sexual orientation has nothing to do with your gender and everything to do with what gender you’re attracted to. We call a woman a lesbian because she’s attracted to females, yet we call a man straight because he is too. That’s purely a social construct – the fact is, people as a rule are attracted to men, women, or both. So if someone decides they are being sinful or demonized because they are attracted to a specific gender, is the answer to counsel them to accept their natural tendencies and ignore harmful outside influences or to act opposite of their nature to please others while sacrificing themselves?
The same can be said about gender. Most people are born with physical characteristics that are predominately either male or female. But a small percentage of people mentally identify with a different gender from their biological one. This isn’t some whim or passing fancy – there are people who genuinely feel betrayed by their own bodies. Should they be counseled to accept their true identities and ignore hateful outside influences, or should they be forced to remain in biological prisons they despise because it makes other people feel more comfortable?
You are comparing two completely different things. Why would someone “hate their orientation” unless he was taught by others that it was something to be ashamed of? There’s nothing natural about hating who you are fundamentally. On the other hand, why would someone “hate their gender” unless it was something unnatural to them, given how horrifically transgenders and such are treated by pretty much everyone? You’re trying to compare outside influences to inner feelings, and it doesn’t work.
Tommy Marx
Thanks Terrwill! I live in a small city in North Carolina, so unfortunately there’s only a couple of gay bars around, and they’re more the cruisy types. But then again, I’m not a big bar person period. I’m more of a homebody. 🙂
terrwill
No. 8 · adamblast: Look at the origins of said problems. Those seeking to become an “Ex-Gay” are being urged to do so by those who are attempting to convince them that theirs is a wicked lifestyle which will condemns them to eternal damnation in the bellows of Hell. They become puppets manipulated by those whos agenda is to attempt to prove that being Gay is a “choice”. Rather than something that is intrinstic to the whole being of the person, something one has no more choice of than having blue eyes, being black or white et all. Virtually all of these “Ex-Gays” “lapse” back into the “Gay lifestyle” because they are being force feed snake oil by schucksters who are no differnt than those who used to travel town to town selling snake oil, promising “cures” for anything that ails you……Those who truly feel they are the wrong gender are seeking assistance in the transition. Those they turn to are for the most part not telling them that their lifestyle is “wicked” and you need “salvation”. It is a process which assures that before they have a hole rather than a pole they are 100% certain that is the correct path for them. Those professionals are there to guide them, unlike the scum who perpetuate the myth that you can change your sexual orientation…………..
Fitz
The real story here is how slow our consumer protections laws are. You have every credible professional association stating that this is bogus, and you even have licensing EXAMS that say that this is bogus, but no one pulls a license for practicing something which is bogus. WOW! Guys.. you pay taxes so that someone in an office monitors who is allowed to call themselves a health care provider. If that person isn’t doing their job, we need to make noise.
There are a couple of things that the article gets wrong. 1) It is possible.. very possible.. to ban a certain type of treatment. 2) Your doctor, your psychotherapist, even your dentist can’t just do what they want to do. They are not as omnipotent as you might think. Someone comes in with “X” problem, you can only do the treatments that are accepted as solid treatments for problem X. Your doctor can’t give you an antibiotic for a broken leg or psychotherapy to treat diabetes.
So what needs to happen is that some of his former patients need to file complaints with the licensing board. Because he is probably a MD if he is a psychoanalyst (not a psychologist as the article sorta says), no action will be taken until actual patients of his are complaining.
Timothy Kincaid
Gerald Schoenwolf is hardly new to wackiness. He’s an adviser for NARTH and in 2006 I exposed one of his extremist positions taken on their site.
http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2006/09/narths-justification-of-slavery/
He was ranting about the evils of being PC. The money quote was
“With all due respect, there is another way, or other ways, to look at the race issue in America. It could be pointed out, for example, that Africa at the time of slavery was still primarily a jungle, as yet uncivilized or industrialized. Life there was savage, as savage as the jungle for most people, and that it was the Africans themselves who first enslaved their own people. They sold their own people to other countries, and those brought to Europe, South America, America, and other countries, were in many ways better off than they had been in Africa. But if one even begins to say these things one is quickly shouted down as though one were a complete madman.”
No, Mr. Schoenwolf, not a madman. A hateful bigot, perhaps. An arrogant racist. A man who believes that he is superior to others. Someone who supposes that everyone wants to be just like him. A wack-job. But not a madman – madmen don’t try and justify their insanity.
Fitz
Oh.. and i know I am pontificating a little here… but therapists who call themselves “Eclectic” are almost always bums, in my experience. You get very good at something, and you get a reputation for it, and that is your customer base. These ‘eclectic’ providers remind me of $20 whores. “Sure baby… I can be a bad school teacher for you….”
Lukas P.
As someone who actually practices psychotherapy for a living, I have to point out that no insurance carrier would pay for a treatment plan that proposes to change sexual orientation. Anyone seeking such therapy would have to be paying for it out of pocket, or be funded by a group willing to pony up cash for the treatment. No member of any nationally recognized association (for licensed psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers or clinical counselors) could retain their membership if that sort of therapy was being conducted–assuming that the client or a colleague were to file a complaint. So, if no complaint is filed, the therapist MAY be able to fly under the radar at least for awhile.
Problem is that some state boards may register –as opposed to license– therapists who don’t fall under those professional groups. A physician may not be a member of APA but still practice psychotherapy.
Most psychoanalysts ARE M.D.s in the U.S., but not all are. Many psychoanalysts are not trained in psychiatry.
Therefore, there are practitioners who offer all kinds of whacky treatments and who don’t face losing whatever license they have, if any. As long as the treatment is being paid for and no one pursues a complaint, we get more people getting treatment that is not evidence-based and getting harmed in the process.
Sucks, doesn’t it. Beware and be wary.
jason
Society was constructed to counter the male-male erotic interaction because it feared the promiscuity paradigm that develops when the stigma is removed. The perception was and is that men who are unrestrained by stigma will engage in the types of promiscuous behaviors you see in bath-houses.
The perception is that men are highly sexual creatures and thus prone to promiscuous behaviors. In heterosexual culture, you have the less horny females who act as moderators of male heterosexual behaviors, thus reducing the degree of promiscuity relative to what would exist in a male-male paradigm.
Brian Miller
Hmmm… thought experiment with a few word substitutions in Schoenewolf’s “thinking”:
In fact, blacks who have gone through racial reorientation therapy—and many such cases have been documented—have now formed a group to protest what they see as prejudice against them by the civil rights people and their publications. “What about our rights to get help in changing our racial reorientation?” they complain.
Oddly, it makes about as much sense as the original passage (e.g. little to none).
Fitz
Lukas, you are right– NY has some of the toughest licensing laws around, however. Maybe only second to CA. I think that part of the problem is that we require an injured patient to make a complaint before we do anything about yanking a license. Even continuing education is a joke— you can go online and get your 60 hours of CEUs for $50 in 15 minutes. And you are right on about insurance. This shmuck is appealing to some of the most desperate and unhappy people.. and probably stays above the radar by staying PP only. AND…just to make things even more messed up…. even if you could yank his license he could just re-brand himself as a “lifestyle coach” and some shmoe would pay him.
adamblast
Thanks for the thoughtful engagement. I spent my formative years secretly trying to pray the gay away, as a result of strongly internalized religious doctrines. It was easy to throw those doctrines overboard as an adult, but the shame proved irreversible. I have zero faith in any therapist or counselor’s ability to bring self-hating gay men out of shame.
At 51 years of age I’ve had almost no sexual experience, and certainly no love or gay affection. I’ve externalized my attempts to “find pride” by being a gay rights activist (albeit a rather bitter one) and a moderately successful stage actor. My celibacy and isolation (and suicidal depression) are my secrets, not my homosexuality.
In my case, self-acceptance is a bitter joke, and I have extreme empathy with those men who think they would have been far happier could they have pressed the magic Str8 button.
terrwill
No. 20 · adamblast: Your thoughts would dovetail perfectly with an argument I have been making on another current thread regarding Mike from Real World and his only peeking out of the closet by adopting the bi-sexual tag. I argued his deep religious background and jock small town mentality allows one to not fully embrace the word Gay until there is more of a comfort factor in the said Gay skin.
Yours is a sad tale and I would urge you to make a New Years Revolution to see the Gay life in a new light. It is like all things you get out what you put into it. I am going out on a limb here and am going to venture that because of your negative thoughts, you probalby consider yourself as unattractive and may even be overweight. What you need to do is get involved in Gay activities. Many persons think the only thing that involves is going to a bar. Most places have a Gay center and they usually have lots of groups who are very inclusive. I have been an instructor in group exercises at a local center and I always comb the center for as many parcipitants in the classes as possible, concentating on the ones who look like they haven’t had much physical activity in a while. You would be suprised how much of an ego boost losing weight and feeling fit can make one feel. And it is a sense of belonging to a group, you begin speaking to persons and soon you have a group of friends. And don’t be ascared of the local bars also. Some of the most popular guys in some of the bars I go to are not the hottest but the ones who are the friendliest and quickest to stirke up a conversation with others, it is very easy to develop a Gay version of “Cheers” There are tons of miserable straight people out there it is not a Gay specific issue. Get out there, get involved and I can guarantee you will have a much better 2010….
Lukas P.
@ADAMBLAST:
I can’t ethically comment on therapists you may have seen, but I have heard dozens and dozens of similar stories to yours. Finding a competent therapist is hard work, and many areas do not have therapists who specialize in or have much training in human sexuality. That said, a good “general practitioner” therapist with a modicum of understanding might be able to help you dial down the shame and bitterness you report feeling. And if that therapist is ethical and well-networked s/he may be able to find someone to get some supervision/advice from, or even find someone near enough for you to see from time to time.
Case in point: my training didn’t equip me very well to deal with clients facing disfiguring illnesses, but I do see some and do good work with them, I believe. I have people I can phone/email re: particular rough spots, and they ring me up when treating folks who fall more closely into my specialties. I also have a few clients who I see a few times a year who come some distance from underserved areas. With their permission, I consult with their regular therapist. It’s not perfect but it works.
A final consideration would be a men’s group, preferably a so-called ‘coming out’ group, even if you’ve been out for years. Groups, when run right, often succeed in ways that 1:1 counseling can’t.
Believe it or not, one of my best referrals was to a former nun who has a M.A. in social work, and who is an ace dealing with issues of recovering from what she calls “toxic over-religiosity”(!)–even though she isn’t anti-religious per se, but falls on the side of thinking religion ought not to interfere with sanity and good sexual health. Sadly, she’s retiring to South America to build dams or some such thing!
Point is, if you want some help, it’s out there.
Sorry to be long-winded. Train rides make me chatty!
scott ny'er
@ Terriwell.
which bars are these cheers bars? is that in NYC? I’m just curious.
Fitz
Adam- check your local PFLAG office for good groups and/or therapist referrals. I hope you can hear this in the way I mean it: Tick Tock. Your are 51. Find a way to enjoy yourself, very soon. Life is wonderful. (but too short).
GrrrlRomeo
I’m going to take a different approach and say that actually, gender identity and sexual identity aren’t oranges and apples. They’re both identities.
The difference is people aren’t assigned a legal or physical trait identifying their sexual orientation at birth. Although we are all pretty much assumed to be heterosexual when we’re born, and treated as such. We grow up being taught how to date, love, have relationships with and have sex with the opposite sex. When gay people realize that’s not what they’re attracted to, and come out to themselves and to others, they transition from straight to gay. And contrary to what transgender folks seem to think, gays do get resistance from others for this transition from family and friends who had always seen them as straight.
Imagine if you were born with a tattoo that said “heterosexual.” And the doctor seeing this tattoo, entered “heterosexual” on your birth certificate along with your sex and name. If you’re not heterosexual, could you just live with it or would you seek to change your tattoo and birth certificate? What if people insisted you were heterosexual because your tattoo and birth certificate says so? What if people continually asked you if you have a girlfriend yet even though you have a boyfriend?
terrwill
No. 23 · scott ny’er: Sorry dude, my name isn’t
terrwill ny’er, I gots no idea…… : P
adamblast
That way of framing it does help me a bit, GrrlRomeo. I brought up my own details trying to illustrate why I have a hard time believing that gender variance isn’t often heavily influenced by some sadly toxic magical thinking. I’d like to think I’m politically supportive, but I’m all too influenced by sadly toxic magical thinking myself not to see it wherever I go.
Nothing makes our lives all better.
TheOtherGuy
I don’t know a lot about psychoanalysis, but if he follows Freud as implied by this post, he is already considered a quack by the rest of the psychology community.
Lukas P.
For what it’s worth, I think everyone engages in some ‘magical thinking.’ The formula goes like this: “If only I were/weren’t ____, I’d be more/less_____.”
Mine was: “If only I were better looking, I’d be happier.” As a champion debater [trophies galore! Wow!] it took me until a few years ago to start arguing the logic of THAT B.S. with myself. I realized that I knew plenty of people who were smarter, cuter, richer, and more successful than I, and who were twice as miserable. Total un-blinding f#*king wake up call that was! Also, I realized that there were plenty of people less dashing and charming and cash-laden than l’il ole me, who seemed to be quite content.
Not a magic elixir, but whenever I start wishing to be different, I argue with myself again and again, just to get to the point where I realize that my magic thinking screws me up more than anything else. And, when the voodoo voice in the head starts yammering at me about the “if only” crap, I can get it to simmer down.
I hope that makes some sense and might be helpful.
scott ny'er
@No. 26 · terrwill
LOL. Ha. You would think I would know about that, right? I just don’t frequent bars, that’s why I asked. No biggie.
I don’t drink so there’s not a big reason for me to do the bar thing.
KinkyKamikaze
If the doctor complies and accepts, and starts treating him for this, you acknowledge the patient to have a “problem”, which WE SHOULDN’T DO.
It’s like acknowledging an anorexia patients fears by giving her dietary help for loosing weight.
terrwill
No. 30 · scott ny’er: NP! too many people have gave the stereotype that all Gay bars are pit stops for hookups. They can be that but they also can be good places to hang and meet good friends………..I used to tend bar thru college and lots of guys who were regs. didn’t drink anything more potent than diet coke with lemon (if they were ona bender they would go for lime!) they fit in and had as good a time as the rest…….
merkin
What i find interesting is the good doctor mentions patients he’s worked with to reorder their sexuality, but he doesn’t say anything about his “success” rate. Though how you can measure success–when the only evidence is the patient’s say-so–is beyond me.
David Ehrenstein
Yes he has to.
NEXT!!!!!!!!!
Gramps
Having talked with and watched my partner try to counsel the religious ex-gay wanna be’s, I know they are a tortured set that will do any thing to remove that SSA while all the while trying to hook up in the back room. The good Dr. Schoenewolf is just taking advantage of some really screwed up people!
kevin57
As a therapist in training, the APA recently issued guidelines on this. Therapists should not be about the goal of “changing” sexual orientation. Where certain individuals feel conflicted because of internal conflict due to religious convictions, the therapist should help the patient try to reconcile the two. Sounds reasonable.
The historical point I think is most disingenuous is his assertion about gay activists “forcing” the APA to “declassify” homosexuality as a disorder. There is truth to this. There was a definite and concerted “political” move to do this….As there was a similar effort, at the same time, to include PTSD as a disorder. This was led by veteran activists. Funny, though, I don’t hear the good doctor here complaining about this politicization effort. Funny, indeed.
schlukitz
No. 16 · Lukas P.
Thank you for sharing not only your professional expertise with us, but also for illuminating a subject that far too many of us are not entirely familiar with or comfortable around.
You have done us all a great service.
Charles Merrill
Electrodes on my nuts and shock to my penis if I get aroused by viewing male erotica. Are you sure that cost is not covered under the 2032-page health care plan?
Nikki
I am a straight Psychologist in private practice in AZ and am completely saddened and disgusted by this article. Take heart. Most of us with Ph.Ds/PsyDs are legit. I have yet to meet a Republican or Religious Right Psychologist in either state I’ve practiced in. Masters level clinicians are another story… The man in the article should be referring to himself as someone who does counseling from a religious perspective, not as an analyst.
schlukitz
No. 39 · Nikki
Thank you,Sir, for sharing that information with us. We are all delighted and comforted in hearing that, I am sure.
Lukas P.
@Nikki, I hate to throw a MD//PhD around like a discus, but your slamming of licensed MA level clinicians is sublimely tacky. I supervise approx 10 LCSWs and LCPs/LPCs and see that nearly every one of them is exceptionally well qualified — I would gladly refer clients to them if I were allowed to. The psychologists I have worked with have been ok, but most of them don’t have sufficient training in family therapy or can’t handle clients without college degrees. They do lovely paperwork, though. Pages and pages of it.
The MA level folks are not trained like PhDs in psych testing (or the so-called ‘educational psychology’) which is not typically needed in our setting. The one MSW who isn’t as qualified for general practice does wonderful work with seniors and with medical issues, because she is also a RN.
Maybe you should reconsider your statement about other licensed professionals?
Jaroslaw
#14 – I would certainly disagree with Herr Dr. that all of Africa was uncivilized – there were many highly developed cultures, Egypt for the most obvious! But is it not true slavery existed there before Europeans landed and did the natives did not sell slaves to the Europeans? Funny I have several friends of African descent who have studied a lot and even been on trips there and they don’t dispute this.
#36 – the other disingenuous thing about how homosexuality being removed from the medical list of disorders – (a) few things in this world get done without force; polite discourse and requests just don’t get it. I wish it weren’t so, but c’est la vie. (b) EVERYONE on earth lobbies, cajoles, networks, and attempts to have influence on religious leaders, political leaders, etc. It is only when it is for a social good and ESP. when it is for Gay people that cries of “conspiracy” and “manipulation” arise.
joedee1969
The new generation will set all gay people free.It is the older crowd still hanging on to the madness. It is these guys:
http://americaspeaksink.com/2010/01/2010-more-baby-boomer-destruction/
schlukitz
No. 43 · joedee1969
t is these guys:
Yep. And I done it all by myself, even if it did take me 73 years!
A bit of over-simplification on your behalf, don’t you think? There are those of in the baby-boomer crowd who have worked our butts off to get YOU the rights you currently enjoy.
You might give that some thought before tossing the baby out with the bath water.
Fitz
Nikki- I think what I am sensing is some frustrated ambition on your part. Where I work, there are several MFTs and even MFTi’s who do terrific work. I would send a patient to a PhD for testing or for an SSI application, etc. But for a relationship issue? (including relationship with sexuality).
Sam
Perhaps it’s too late in the post to throw in a contrary opinion, but IMHO there’s nothing wrong with “reorientation therapy,” per se. The problems are that it is often forced on minors or other vulnerable people, that those conducting therapy often wildly exaggerate the success rate while never mentioning the potential harms and that no alternative, more effective means of therapy is offered.
I think that if a self-hating gay guy walks into a therapist looking for “reorientation therapy”, the therapist should make sure he’s not being coerced, explain that this type of therapy is not very effective and that there is a risk of permanent psychological damage involved and offer (or offer a referral to) psychological treatment that focuses on accepting himself as a gay man. If, after full informed consent and the presentation of an alternative, the guy still wants the therapy of his own free will, then he should get it.
People choose to harm themselves in all kinds of ways every day. As long as their are safeguards in place so that these people know that they are jumping off a cliff and aren’t being forced, who are we to stop them. Of course, I’d be shocked to hear that this guy (or anyone else doing “reorientation therapy”) actually followed this protocol.
Sam
“there are” not “their are.” Damn. Hate that.
Jaroslaw
#46 Sam – Yes people choose to harm themselves every day by overeating, smoking and drinking and doing drugs. Drugs are not legal and it is possible to eat and drink in moderation – most of us manage to do it. Smoking has a very long history and in this country was even subsidized in colonial times. The magnitude of the dangers of smoking obviously have not seeped into public consciousness because most of us are still uncomfortable asking people NOT to smoke in our presence.
So in short, while I think your thoughts are well intended, the analogy doesn’t really work. And you already know this, but your “suggestion” even if it is in a small way, it still reinforces this idea that being Gay is a choice.
Also, even if your protocol was enacted, voluntary safeguards seldom work.
Nikki
Lukas, I in no way meant to slam other professionals (only the one in this article) 🙂 My comment was:
“I have yet to meet a Republican or Religious Right Psychologist in either state I’ve practiced in. Masters level clinicians are another story…”
This is from my personal experience…hence the wording “I have never met” I have indeed met some religious right masters level clinicians who practice as Therapists from a Christian Perspective. I actually have no issue with that either as long as one states what s/he is doing.
I believe this may be a case of email writing not coming across with the correct intent. The intent of my posting was to say that many of us as Psychologists (and all that I personally know) are pro equal rights and gay friendly.
Nikki
Lukas P.
@Nikki: please accept my apologies for misinterpreting your remarks re: MA level therapists.
I have dealt with some ethical “Christian-focused” clinicians, but sadly have seen too many people who have been mishandled if not damaged by religion-weilding psychotherapists with MDs, PhD/PsyDs, MA/MSWs etc. who seemed to have forgotten their ethics in favor of bible verses.
One client of mine had been told by a non-licensed Christian therapist to fast for a week (water and bread only) while meditating on ways to better submit to her husband as Head of the Home. That did little to end her bulimia or spiritual doubts, believe me! She was paying this quack the equivalent of one day’s pay for each of her sessions. Scary stuff.
Thanks for carrying the flame for professional ethics!
Fitz
God, can you trip over yourselves apologizing fast enough? I hate stupid remarks, but I hate back peddling even more.
Sam
@Jaroslaw: I didn’t make an analogy to overeating, smoking or drugs. You did.
Also, I fail to see how requiring therapists to tell people seeking “reorientation therapy” that it rarely works “reinforces this idea that being Gay is a choice.” I’d think quite the opposite, and certainly less so than what these “therapists” are currently telling their patients.
Bottom line is that banning this practice won’t stop it from happening. Bans on abortion don’t stop abortions from happening, they only make them less safe. I think it’s better to require informed consent and treatment alternatives in this scenario rather than drive it underground and make it even more damaging to those who seek it.
Jaroslaw
Sam you’re nitpicking. You’re welcome to list how you feel people harm themselves voluntarily and clear up my misconceptions.
Your Par 2 above: you’re right up to a point IF the therapist tells the patient it rarely works. That is a big IF since it works against the therapist’s interest to turn away patients and HOW they are told could make a huge difference as well. What I was referring to is why would we allow therapy for something that isn’t a problem? I read in a major news magazine about patients who want a limb cut off etc. Would you allow this, I mean they could have informed consent for this too.
Abortion ban is a bad example too. Because guess what? People will always break the law. That doesn’t mean we should stop making laws that at least in theory attempt to make the world a better place.
joedee1969
They blast us for loving men but they go to these churches and have gay sex with preachers. I don’t even listen to them anymore. They hate gays but love war. I came across this powerful article trashing these people over war:
http://americaspeaksink.com/2010/01/communist-domino-theory-meet-radical-islam/
Former Patient
For the record, I was a patient of his. He has a definite personal agenda in his work with patients and it is not a good one. He is definitely trying to push people into the married, hetero-with-kids lifestyle. He is a very weird guy, and I wasted a lot of time and money with him. Yes, he is licensed, and insurance pays for it. But he would never put anything on the bill to indicate that he was doing reorientation therapy; he’d use a diagnosis of anxiety disorder or some such. He’s just very, very weird. You only have to peruse his internet presence to determine that.
I have spoken to two other therapists about his approach to treatment, and both of them said that something was not right there. I would say his work is only borderline negligent and complaints against him would not be actionable legally. But is his treatment damaging? Yes. No question in my mind.
Fitz
Former pt: call licensing. THAT is where you complain about him not using best-practice. Not to other therapists, not on queerty. (well, not alone). Call licensing. It’s easy, supportive.
Former Patient
@56: I have zippo interest in going through some kind of bureaucratic torture to prove him unfit. I am just happy to be away from him. And I cannot say that he is harming other people–maybe it works for them.
Also, licensing boards tend to favor the doctor–esp regarding psychotherapy where people present themselves as having an emotional problem, right? Unless there is very obvious abuse (sexual contact, say) all the doctor has to say is that the patient is demonstrating symptoms of mental illness. No matter how weird a doctor’s behavior may be, merely not using “best practice” isn’t grounds for revoking a license.
Lesson learned: Doctors are not necessarily authorities on anything. Choose carefully.
Josh
“…But something always sounds off-putting about a trained therapist counseling men that, if they try hard enough, they can abandon the “lifestyle” they were born into.”
Science does not (yet) completely understand sexuality, let alone homosexuality. To allege that homosexuals were “born” into a lifestyle is not consistent with the science.
PERVERT
Hello, I am also a former patient. 1hr was enough time for me to realize this Dr. Scheonwolf is a WACK if I’ve ever seen one. The only person he should be doing physco anaylsis on is HIMSELF. I swear he talked to my chest the whole time and every time he got up I watched him physically pick his ass in front of me. The most un professional, racist, ill mannered Dr..if thats what you want to call him I have ever seen. Someone should check into his practices…all his books about sexuality and how to keep a happy lover really throw up red flags for me. This guy is a wierdo..Lets just say I would never leave my child alone with him. I do not reccommend seeing this Dr for any reason!
Glad someone came Forward
Re: Pervert – I am so glad to see that someone has finally come forward regarding this so called doctor Schoenwolf. I too was a patient of his. I saw him about a year back. For the record,I am a very feminine, attractive lesbian and my partner also posseses the same qualities. We began the process of adopting a orphan child from a 3rd world country and one of the requirements was to visit a pyscologist. Throughout our visit he kept making references that my partner and I could not possibly be “gay”. He even went to the extreme to say “i’d like to see it” . I asked him what exactly that means and he proceeded with a sick grin and blush. At one point my partner whispered in my ear..”is he touching himself” ? He was holding a box of tissues in his lap and what looked like rubbing it on his genitals. We left 15 minutes before our appointment was up with an excuse because he made us feel so extreemly uncomfortable. And to think this man is married. I feel horrible for his wife. It’s only a matter of time before he takes it too far and authorities finally shut him down.
NukaColaNova
This doesn’t surprise me coming from a man who also claims that “penis-envy” is still relevant and that feminism is synonymous with narcissistic personality disorder. Freudians… *sigh* Sometimes a necktie is just a necktie and there’s nothing wrong with it. Leave the damn things alone already. Anyway, I digress…
Check out “101 Therapeutic Successes” by Schoenewolf. I happen to disagree with almost everything that comes out of this guy’s ass but it is still an interesting eyebrow raiser.
Former Patient
Happy to see other former patients posting. I could relay a lot of questionable comments, incidents, etc., that happned in my sessions, but I will refrain and refer only to info that I found posted publicly about him–by him, online. After I stopped working with him I googled him and was shocked by what I found. On a social networking site a picture of him and his new wife, who is several decades younger, doesn’t speak English (and so they communicate in a “sign language” he came up with), and who is “devoted” to him, he says. (!!!) In keeping with the colonialist tone: An article saying that descendents of slaves should be glad to be here, rather than in Africa, that back during the time of Atlantic slave trade, Africa was nothing more than a jungle (Egypt? Hello?) and a screenplay where some early white colonist is watching a group of young, nubile native American girls dancing erotically for his pleasure. (!!!) Then some appearance on a Judge Judy type show where he was being sued by a male actor for sexual discrimination: It seems the good doctor paid the female actors but not the male lead in his movie, Therapy, an autobiographical treatment of his work with one of his first patients. (In the film the therapist falls in love with a dancer with multiple personalities and has an affair with her–should I mention that he was “victimized” by the patient–not the other way around?) Other films to be found online: One where he, the guy behind the camera, beats his girlfriend, the one in front of the camera, to death because she is nagging him to turn off the camera; another where he simulates masturbation as the intro to a living-will video, where he, a rich patriarch, is pissed off that his children just want his money.
Weird and creepy, if you ask me. Never would have stepped through the door had I seen any of this stuff first.
joedee1969
It is nuts that people even care about people’s sexuality while the whole nation is crumbling to its knees. Our favorite bear wants us to down grade the politicians personal credit:
http://americaspeaksink.com/2011/08/bad-credit-from-very-bad-politicians/